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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 ก.ย. 2024
- Short Circuit MIG is generally used on thin materials due to it's prone to lack of fusion. Today we are going to put that theory to the test with a welding bend test. We're going to run a short circuit plate, as well as a plate with spray transfer and compare the bend test on both.
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I still remember going into a fab shop to check on a vessel they were building in the early 90's. They were putting the can sections together and all I could hear was "putt, putt, sizzle, putt, putt." coming from both welders. I double checked the weld procedure, took a short video on my old sony mavica camera and talked to the foreman. I asked him "what process are you using short circuit, globular or spray transfer" he looked at me like a cow at a new gate and said "mig, you idiot". I asked to use the phone and called the client. fifteen minutes later the owner showed up and shut the job down for a client visit. After another hour of light snooping I found enough other issues that the client rejected the vessel outright. they ended up cutting the pieces up for scrap. Heads, can sections, nozzles all had issues. I submitted my report and hit the road. The man rep later called me to say they scrapped the original plan and went back to submergerd arc and GTAW construction with a different material of construction. I guess that turned out alright because I never got the call to court, haha. That was the first vessel I condemned, boy was I nervous!
"MIG, you idiot" 😂
Anyone who is looking to actually make the short circuit work, some things I believe Red Beard could have touched on: he could have had much better luck on his short-circuit root if he had of stayed on the leading edge of the puddle jumping from corner to corner a bit faster instead of staying in the middle and allowing it to slowly fill the space up. If grinding is allowed, he could have also knocked down the convexity of the root a bit so the hot pass would have better success to to further melt the root corners in better.
Thanks for the Video.
i have been a welder for almost 40 years ,in that time I have lost track of the number of welders I have worked with that confuse can not be done with should not be done or not recommended v.s will never work ever
Baby shark... That got an out loud laugh. Well done.
I was expecting Mama shark next with a larger pair.
Frank Perkins they go through the whole bit. It is in the Hefner performance welding cart build series.
Interesting. I'm a hack at this. A much better grinder than welder. But when I do weld, I make sure to direct the wire into the corners with a combination of gun angle and side to side motion. It just seemed to me that you were relying solely on the puddle to fuse into the base metal instead of using the arc force to punch the heat a little deeper. Am I off in left field here?
Also, I'd like to see this done with both gasless and shielded flux core.
I would like to see this test in a less controlled application like you are saying by angling the gun into the corners instead of just relying on the puddle. Seems like it would have a better chance at passing that way.
No your seeing same mistake i see if you going to mig weld something that needs to hold mean ing if it made out off 1/2 thick metal your weld better be stronger. JUST a class 5 hitch on the back of my Rv pulling my Stacker trailer
I'm realizing just how uneducated i am now
That's why we're here, lol.
Ditto!! And I'm currently in weld school.... TH-cam has taught me more
We run short circuit for everything, and have for over 25 years. Machines are Lincoln CV305 power units running 460v 3 phase, typical settings are 25-27v 450-525w/s with .040 er70s-6 wire running stargon (Argon/carbon dioxide/oxygen mix). Never had a problem, and routinely have stuff sent out for destruction testing (have 1" diameter d-rings come back shaped like footballs with zero weld fails on the clips). The gas we use does allow for spray transfer, but we're required to do a lot of overhead and vertical welding.
i think the problem is the technique used for root pass. with backplate you can’t reach both wall together, this caused the lof. without a backplate you have to wave from a border to the other, so the fusion is complete, never had a single problem
I used 3/8 on our short circuit bend tests at school, and no problem getting penetration. In fact I had no cracks or anything on either the root or the face bend..
Same. Afterwards the teacher basically said it wasn't the recommended process for that thickness but he had us do it, because to pass everything had to be perfect; it made us better. Fun challenge, but for the thick stuff spray and dual shield is the way to go.
Me to. I passed two bends with short circuit MIG. My instructor made me do another one because the first one failed visual inspection, but neither one failed bend ;)
It's not mentioned in the video , but Jason is using 0.035" wire here.
Yeah I don't care what they say about structural using a Millermatic 250 in and Lincoln sp250 Annie Millermatic 252 the happiest I've done up to is I think 7/8 inch plate with a few passes and they heavy duty trailer works just fine no pulse
I've passed the bend tests in 2, 3 and 4g w/short circuit-
Always with a pull, not push angle, and keeping the wire on the leading edge of the puddle...
Tha being said, I've seen more bend failures w/ Mig than any other process.
I have been welding for 20 years hold 30 plus certs. I have short circuit welded .0.35 75/25 co2 argon for years on heavy material never had an issue. You welded that short circuit at ridiculous low settings especially for flat and back up strip. Of course it broke if you ran normal setting. 0.35 24v 350 to 385 it would have passed no problem. All of my mig tests were done short circuit. Your spray was set high voltage it should pass. I welded at caterpillar for years and was welding 1.5 in thick steel short circuit. All welds ultrasound inspected never failed one weld. All in the settings.
Dean Rosner true Dean, it can be done,I’ve done it too. The trouble is it takes a combination of perfect settings and near perfect technique _ consistently. He mentioned”repeatability “, that’s the issue. It’s not common enough for all of the needed things to come together every time. A focused welder ,who knows how to set the machine for thickness/position/purpose/environment who can read every shift of the puddle split second by split second. It’s just like common sense- it’s not as common as it should be and therefore can’t be used as a standard safely. - neither can short circuit welding on structural.
On structural vert welds i run 19 210 never have any problems. I have welded thick material and welds were ultrasound and ndt magnet practical tested. its all how you can fine tune.welding is an art
Aren't the settings and gas the only difference between short circuit and spray transfer? I'm a tig welder, so I'm ignorant, but just googling around for spray arc settings puts the settings you listed in the spray transfer category.
@UC-AbAlY4QVoLlSaXx5yw0Wg its all in the settings if you have say 23 350 its not globular if you turned your wire down to say 300 you would see the globs form .if you turned the wire down even more you would see spray.
@@deanrosner2007 at 24v with 350ish WFS you'd be getting closer to spray transfer with higher argon content though. You also claim that globular transfer and spray are achieved by turning down the wire speed and that you must turn down the WFS to go from globular to spray?
Spray: high current and WFS (220A+) in argon rich shield gas - high deposition, smooth, clean bead with very little spatter
Cons: not good for thin material or out of position welding (unless it's a pulsed process)
Globular: operates between the upper amp limit of short circuit to around 400A providing high deposition in flat position using CO2 rich shield gas and thicker wire
Cons: poor arc continuity, excessive spatter, needs gravity to deposit droplets
The processes aren't just turning your wirespeed down or up and short circuit is the lowest current/deposition rate method of the 3. Electrode size, gas content, weld current, and arc voltage are what makes them different and achieve the following characteristics-
Short circuit: electrode contacts workpiece or weld puddle many times per second to transfer current which forms a short circuit (hence the name) melting the workpiece and electrode
Spray: arc established through inert gas from electrode to workpiece, melting electrode and workpiece while magnetic forces from current pull the filler metal into the weld puddle
Globular: arc established from electrode to workpiece through shield gas melting electrode until a droplet forms and grows large enough for gravity to pull it into the weld puddle.
Increase wire feed speed a skosh for the root. Arc won’t fan out so much and will punch in better. Talking spray
See I've done short arc on half in. Plate and never have any lack of fusion
Dumb question,does cutting the samples with a O/A torch anneal the weld and change the results of the test?
Not with a36 .high strength steel like T1 yes no flame cutting due to annealing only plasma or water or saw cutting
@@carolshawol6699 OK thanks,just thought they would band saw them. Makes sense.
No quench either on test plates! I used plasma on my 3/8 with no ill effect. O/A scarfing was the root failure in mine.
No, it's only mild steel.
Is "spray" "short circuit" and "gobular" settings you change on your machine or is it a formula of wire speed to amp/voltage to get the different effects?
If I remember correctly, it's a setting. They require different gas mixes.
Just the parameter changes i think. Some machines might have presets, im not 100 percent though.
You need to adjust the settings on your machine and select the propper gas, you can only get Short circuit or globular with CO2 and mixtures where the CO2 levels
are higher than 18%, for Spray the commercial gas would be 90%Ar/10%C02, the change in transfer modes is because of the increase of voltage, you can have a 0.045" wire with 90/10 gas, 350 in/min, 22 volts and you get a short circuit, go around 24-26 volts you will see the heavy drops of globular, if you go with the same 350 in/min and up to 27-28 volts the spray transfer will develop
@@fehu-soldadura Thanks!
Short circuit, globular, & spray are "modes of transfer". Those words are welding terminology that describes how the metal is being deposited (aka transferred) from the wire to the base metal being welded. In the order I listed them, generally speaking they go from "coldest" to "hottest". How you as a weldor obtain those modes of transfer has to do with both WFS and Voltage. It's not a "button" on a menu somewhere. You can do more research on your own from Google, but basically your latter description is correct.
I prefer globular transfer 75/25 and 21volts
I like it hot 42 volt , wire speed 450 low side 600 high side on dual trigger gun ,or or trigger lock @ 5 ro 550 depending on thickness. We used 92% arg 8% co2 , some times 90%arg , 8%co2 , 2% oxy to intensify spray on weaker machines .
If it had an open root configuration it would have never failed, all uphill passes
Root@ .035 17.2v 170ipm
Hot@ 18.9v 200ipm
Cap @ 18.5@180ipm
Yes. Exactly. Wrong technique here. About what I'd use on voltage too. A tad bit more wire speed on root and subsequent passes than you posted. Though hot/cap wouldn't probably bother to change.
I agree. I’ve qualified pipe procedures with short circuit from root to cap and pass every time. But I do understand the concerns when it comes to structural applications. This was a good example of that. When in doubt, get the flux cored out. 😉
Open root is not a prequalified procedure per the D1.1. CJP groove welds typically have a backing bar. When using a backing bar SC fails every time >5/16. On open root pipe SC is amazing. Better yet modified short circuit STT or RMD
"Prequalified joint design" i meant to type
If you're welding up hill backing or no backing it would pass with short circuit. When going uphill you get great heat input because the travel speed is so low. There is no risk of welding on top of your puddle and you always get good penetration.
When doing flat and horizontal multi pass welds, spray transfer is the way to go because your efficiency is so much higher.
Seems like your running rrally cold
We run solid wire at 25 volts
And dual shield at 29 volts
You guys always run cold
My thoughts exactly!!
its very noticible that he hasn't work in the inderstry in a very long time
For qnything above what short circuit is capable of, I went straight to flux core.
I love your funny moments you put in the video :) Brightens my day
I miss welding 😖 I'm now on my third semester and will be starting back soon omg
Could you show us an uphill open root, root pass with mig?
It can be done but it's a pain in the ass at least on pipe anyway.
@@leroy420b naa thats easy. H-L045 is a must have.
Can you do a bend test on spray transfer with higher voltage. Like at least 23.5 volts? Bend test that...I agree that was cold for 3/8 plate boss
I’ve Never had a problem running a short circuit on 3/8 passed quite a few of them
It was also open foot
Root
Me too without backing strap. It seems to me that the 90º angle caused this because the wire was on top of the puddle, causing the lack of fusion. I would like to see another test on this plate but with, idk, maybe 45º angle and more concentration on the plates and not in the backing...
@@renanstreetsk8 Me too. With 60 degree included angle. The one spray test did not look 3/8" thick too???
Hell, try it with actual settings, that 19.5V is cold for 3/8”
I run 19.9V on 1/4” and about 385wfs.
Those are my 1/8” and maybe 3/16” settings you ran there......
The process didn't...you failed.
I had done this but I did not document it as you did.
I needed such a video to show to my clients...
Thank you...
I took a mig open root short circuit had no problem with it.
Should add more heat by using short circuit to get better bend test!
And Less stickout
podrias hacer mas videos mas detallado soldado con spray?
One thing about Spray-Arcing; if you're making a pass anything over around 6" long, you need a water-cooled torch & better heat protection for your front hand.
Average short circuit transfer occurs between 16-21 volts, Globular transfer 21- 26 and spray (with a minimum of 85% Argon) w/.035" wire Dia. 26+ roughly.
Most places I've worked have Implemented a rule of thumb policy, for where we have materials greater than 3/16", we use dual shield Flux Core
I find the best trick to passing a mig short circuit Bend test, keep your wire feed speed fairly low and manageable. A good rule of thumb is the 10/1 ratio.
So if you're welding at 18 volts, turn your wire to 180 ipm.
I passed my first 3g with short arc. And what would be considered cold. I’m certified in all weld process and still trust short. Maybe more practice.
You left a landing on a SS with backing….. you never leave a landing…. And you ran cold. This is why you had massive root fusion failures…. With backing…. No landing… period.
Отличный опыт, пожалуй сохраню в ,,избранное,, впрочем, я догадывался, что факел дает лучшее проплавление, чем короткая дуга. Факел лучше переплавляет свариваемую поверхность и зона сплавления шире (это видно по ширине полосы побежалости), смешение расплава и проволоки лучше. Шов в итоге крепче. Спасибо за опыт, очень к стати.
Corner cracks are pretty forgiving, however, don't forget that the examiner will always be checking that corner crack for signs of lack of fusion or slag inclusions, or other discontinuities that can be attributed to the welder. obviously depending on process.
Bring back Bob Moffit.
Nah I've passed bend test before using hardwire .045 hardwire short circuit mig using 75/25 gas. I think he needs to pause on the toes more.
Please make some comparisons of PULSE MIG vs SHORT CIRCUIT vs SPRAY
Pulse just combines the pros of both methods. Works for thin and thick, little to no spatter, welds out of position, good wash and bead appearance, and good deposition rate and electrode efficiency.
95/5 does not increase the heat transfer. It does the opposite.
You need 80% or more Argon gas mix to create a spray transfer. It's the argon combined with the higher current and most of all, the higher voltage (I forget what the required voltage and wire feed is) that allows the process to be a spray transfer. Giving it a deeper penetration.
The increase of Argon increases the pinch force causing molten droplets to form at the tip of the wire.
I'd love to see a short circuit welding of this metal thickness done with 100% co2 gas shielding.
I used 98/2 Spray-Arc Steel & straight Argon on Aluminum For over 10 years. That works, & will pass any test (when done right).
So as long as you have enough amperage, voltage and wire speed and you use 95% argon/5% co2 gas you can spray weld is this correct? The reason I ask is I have a dimension 652 welder that is transformer based with a 400 amp torch so there is more than enough power but I wasn't sure if you needed an inverter based welder to spray-weld.
For some reason you rarely hear or see these weld videos talk about globular transfer, like the only options are short circuit or spray ????
I would like a comparison with true production welding settings. .045 wire around 27 volts and around 600 inches per minute give or take depending on machine. And I do agree spray is best for penetration and thicker materials along with globular transfer but also know short arc is common for weldments 3/8ths and below.
Love spray high voltage, fast wire speed, sexy weld and grate penetration overall better imo
Fake…. The spray coupons looked like they been welded and buffed after bent…….😎
No. Ive had MANY short circuit pass. This is somewhat misleading.
You're welding very cold
Ok, I really need to ask. Where do you guys get those sweet gas bottle covers labelling what's inside ?
Educational, thanks for sharing. :-) I've been sticking things together for many years and I'm finally starting to pay attention and try to do a better job.
axial spraying works only with high thickness .
You guys and your bias tests. 😂 good to see you back, I was expecting a bigger beard though. Would you like to see a pic of 2 four inch vertical up single pass short circuit fillet welds on 3\8 plate to 1/4 inch plate holding over 2 tons with my life depending on them? Also being loaded improperly with respect to the direction of loading and the fillet weld. Welded at 21 volts and 350 ipm vertical up so I'm not sure why you welded it flat only at 19 volts and way to low of wire speed. Also you didnt ride the edge of the puddle with the arc you kept it in the puddle. Improper technique alone with improper parameters will result in a failed weld. Not because of the transfer mode. Also 26 volt was a bit excessive of course it will penetrate, even with improper technique. Kind of takes some of the human error out I guess, so the saying goes any monkey can pull a triger on a mig gun. Let's see 23 volts and only changes the wire speed \ gas to achieve your transfer mode and use your fancy welding robot. Push with spray and pull with the short circuit keeping the arc buried in the root on the edge of the puddle. Then we have a non bias test with credible results.
23v is the high end globular mode. 24v is true spray.
@@mordantly false, lower your wire feed and change your gas for mild steel 😂 now with aluminum mig your going to get a spray at any voltage you achieve an arc. That is if your doing it right.
Over 215 amps is spray by D1.1. Good at ya for kicking that out.
No globular? As a hobbyist, I can't justify buying a very large tank of 95/5 or 98/2.
Run dual shield fluxcore. It runs on 75/25. Very good for anything structural.
The Best of both modes of GMAW transfer is Pulsed-Spray Transfer... IMHO will be the standard mode that will mostly replace Short Circuit Transfer, except on very thin sheet, in the years to come!
Oh man in school I had to pass open rood plate .375 thick and pipe .375 in all positions plus a 6g super coupon with short circuit, it pretty much sucked.
But I assume you eventually did right? Because it is taught in schools. Many people have to do it everyday.
I have regularly welded pipe over 5/16 wall thickness without issue. Though I believe our setups are different. I run 0.35 wire 275-320ish @19.8V with 75/25 Argon/CO2 gas 1/8 to 5/32 gap on an open root. Downhill the root and up hill the rest.
....pipe isn’t structural bud
Awful choice for gas for this test for short circut side, there is still time to delete this video lol
During the spray arc root he was shaking like a dog shitting glass. lol
All about settings and technique.... 100% CO2 and less wire feed would’ve made the bend test. I’ve done this numerous times on 3/8” root/face bends. Even done it with open root 1” plate side bends.... Spray is definitely better but I think people sell short circuit short and don’t give it the proper credit it’s due.
I have an older Millermatic 250 that I run .030 ER70S-6 And 75/25.
I crank the heat and wire Way up- so the wire disappears after leaving contact tip.
This is what I call hillbilly spray arc. It penetrates, fuses and fills Perfectly and would bet money- it would pass the bt.
Don Smith
Yep id be sure it would, my opinion, it was ran quite cold, that thick, id be at least 21.5V, lots more spatter, but way more penetration.
We use short circuit at Liebherr but only for brackets and little shit.
Nice spray shots! Most of us ‘knew’ this, but did no research. Now we know.
Have you ever considered just turning up your heat when using short circuit? Especially in the flat position, there is nothing stopping you from running that weld at 23-25v and a matching wire speed
That does quite sound like short circut, but more of a spray
@@stevehartlieb would still be short circuit if using 75/25 gas
Would have loveddddd seeein hall the coupons bent 🙄🤤
God please tell me how to do a restart for short circuit mig.
can i spray arc with a millermatic🟦 185?🟦
Thanks for not replying to comments.
should've turned the short circuit up more than that! I think he purposely made that test fail. why do you guys put out bad info?
ive passed short circuit test with .35 and .45 and it was the full test.
Great illustration thank you 🙏🏾
I've done downhill roots with . 035 wire and a quick hot pass with the same wire. All about 20 volts and 420 ipm. I did cover with a 7018. It was very good. Exray was first then an etch, followed by a bend. All was good. Metal was 3/8 with a 1/8 land and a 30° bevel. Bend test was A-OK
I'm 'on the job' taught, going 18 months now MIG'n everyday, don't usually weld anything over 5mm or 6mm , but definitely gonna think twice about maybe spraying when on those 5mm or 6mm items! Cheers!
Always good content. Learning. Thank you.
If you used .045 wire and ran about 23 volts and 270 wire feed I bet the short circuit passes. Just saying. I do it all day everyday
Need that amperage up to about 200 to make a good short circuit weld.
Agree. I got an old 3 phase Miller 300 that'll short circuit just fine at those thicknesses. Never had an issue and used it to make my 1400lb welding table which is 1.5" thick
For sure, I'm used to running on old Lincoln 325 ideal arc's.. this guy's a dope...so is man cub... I want Bob back!
Welding spray/ short circuit doesn't make the weld. Proper technique and the operator makes the weld pass.
Spray arc it for somebody don't know how to short Arc weld where I work is all short arc welding it is a big fabrication shop in the state of Florida we will super heat exchangers asset hours a lot of z core most of it is 308 H. 316ls. 385. 317. 310 that's all stainless with trimix. & L56 hardwire mild steel
We used to give a 3/4 vertical up open root bend test, and then a 3/4 open root over head bend test after you got hired, and I've never seen a test fail that bad.
Look at the gas, wire speed, voltage, backing plate dude was using... LOL
@@stevehartlieb The stickout looked as much as the transfer
Very solid tips, thank you
I have to do a bend test on a 3/8” plate with no back plate, doing vertical uphill with mig, on a 1/8th inch gap. Idk how I’m fixing to do that
Garbage looking welds.
I mostly spray arc at work and I like running .045 wire at 27.5v and 375wfs with 90/10 gas. When my machine was new I could run it all day at those settings but now after about a year with the machine, I can maybe run 2’ total of weld before it starts sputtering and will then ruin the contact tip. I feel like I’ve kept good care of it and replaced consumables as needed. Any idea what could cause this? Thanks
ground clamp/wire? stinger liner? Oh yah, is the metal clean? Mig/Tig doesn't like scale or rust or oil.
@@fewtoes I'm no pro welder, but I've had a Miller 185 for 20 years and it started acting up on me. Replaced the liner. Back to normal. Then it started acting up again, so I purchased a new welder. While doing some comparison welds I noticed that the nut that holds the wire onto the ground clamp was lose. Tighten that up, back to perfect welds.
You have a shitty connection somewhere.
Just fixed one I bought off a guy, it would stick all the time,
The gas orafice was toast, so bell mouthed on the contact tip threads it was always loose. Was also missing the set screw to hold the gun liner.
Greg9504
Yep i had the factory ground clamp burn up on me. 211A machine and only 6 ga ground cable. When it should have been min 4 or at least 2 ga.
Only found the issue when I smelled the rubber at the clamp end wire melting. It also melted the ground clamp bolt that held it on.
Thanks for the replies. I roll the machine all around the very bumpy shop floor everyday so that would make sense that a connection has gotten a little loose. I’ll have to check when I go back in
Can you spray transfer with any mig welder? All you have to do is change gas and adjust your wire speed and voltage accordingly? I'm working with an old miller auto arc 255, with generic 1-6 voltage and 0-100 wire feed speed.
I need a welder so I can try that
Forgive my ignorance - but is this part of training and certification for welders in general? Are there requirements to make this type of weld actually work, despite the difficulty, or is this just showing why this technique isn't suggested for this task? Would 5/16ths really have been better?
Intresting. . Thank for this video educational for me. . 🧑🏭🙏
My current teacher in trade school has me running 225 volts is that too hot? With wire feed speed of 19.5 in a min are the settings off Alil bit?
Why not do open root? Backing plate is awful
Its actually easier, you just slow travel until it melts in.
Spray weld tested best. SMAW would do the same with old and super cheap technology. But cleaning up the slag is the negative. So I will agree with you about spray weld. Keep on a welding too. VF
Best arc shots in the business.
Never in any video do they describe what makes it a globular weld. When
the amperage and wire speed cross a certain point then it becomes
globular? Or is is a setting in the welder? Is it a type of of that
changes it from short circuit to globular? In every video they skip the
most basic description.
Can you do a video on how to stay cool while welding?
When you get too hot your ballsack expands in size, gaining surface area and allowing more air to cool said area.
but how to weld a root pas whitout backing with spray? (for multi layer welding on thick material) It would be to hot and to much wire.
Dont they sell porcelen backing in USA? We USE that alot in NORWAY.
What about MIG processes on stainless? Does the same principles apply as steel?
Yes and no, it’s much different
Lincoln STT is what i use.
I mean wow, the quality of your knowledge is outstanding. Thank you.
I don't care for Mig, but that spray is super impressive.
Use it right, and it'll do right. As per a bend or acid test.
i would pass that test
That's a nice set of dies you built !
Abomb79 made the bend rollers.
How come you only cut out two specimens, most bend test have root face and side bend wheres the side bend?