China's Moore Threads MTT S80 GPU Review | A New Challenger Appears
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 ก.ค. 2024
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This video looks at the history of the relatively new Moore Threads Technology, a recent competitor in the GPU space that was founded by a former NVIDIA employee. Moore Threads is part of a recent boom in China's domestic silicon design market, and it just shipped its first consumer GPUs -- the MTT S80 and MTT S70. We're benchmarking the MTT S80, testing the drivers, looking at the (awful) power consumption characteristics, and talking about implications in the market.
If you like this mix of history and review, check out our 3dfx Voodoo 6000 revisit: • Back from the Dead: 3d...
Or our Zhaoxin CPU deep-dive: • "Trillion Core" Chines...
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00:00 - Defecting from NVIDIA
02:20 - The Political Motivations
04:27 - Marketing Claims
06:19 - An Unbelievable History
10:03 - The Drivers Kind of Suck
13:20 - Gaming Problems
16:52 - Benchmarks
17:17 - CSGO Benchmarks
18:32 - CSGO Frametimes Are Really Bad
19:56 - The Best Scenario: Diablo III
20:45 - Frametimes
21:18 - NFS HP Remastered
22:04 - Power Consumption
23:17 - Tear-Down
29:21 - Conclusion: Impressive Start, Long Road Ahead
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Steve Burke | Host, Testing, Writing
Patrick Lathan | Testing, Writing
Vitalii Makhnovets | Camera, Video Editing
Jeremy Clayton | Additional Research - เกม
If you like this mix of history and review, check out our 3dfx Voodoo 6000 revisit: th-cam.com/video/-aMiEszQBik/w-d-xo.html
Or our Zhaoxin CPU deep-dive: th-cam.com/video/-DanhnASClQ/w-d-xo.html
Grab our Medium Modmat featured in this video here! store.gamersnexus.net/products/medium-modmat-v2
Did not think we would ever see a 750ri in 2023 but here we are
Maybe it's too busy performing malware instructions in the background. 🤨
how far along are you guys on the Rog Ally Video? The community is greatly awaiting and eager to see what you think! I have been spreading the word and even gave you a few shoutouts and heads up the community you guys were working on an some sort of ally content. Thanks for all you guys do. This was a very interesting card to see!
This sounds like Driver issues like Intel's.
Steve, that first sentence, ever heard of S3 Graphics? Matrox? Rendition? Trident Microsystems? SiS? XGI? Imagination Technologies? Number Nine? 3DLabs?
I could go on, but I'm hoping you get the point. To forget all those is just bad journalism Steve. Do better.
This just shows how incredibly difficult it is to make these things actually work. The whole blasting sand with electricity to do math and draw pixels on screen thing
It just shows all the features that are behind Nvidia and AMD GPUs to accelerate graphics.
"The whole blasting sand with electricity to do math and draw pixels" - Brilliant phrasing! And accurate!
"We tricked a rock into thinking by shooting it with controlled bursts of lightning." - someone smarter than me
The more I find out and read about the unbelievable precision and complexity of modern high performance chip making, the more I realize, I'm not that damn smart.
@GamersNexus drawing pixels on a screen is easy, it's drawing them in the correct order that is hard.
When Steve said that they re-ran the 750 Ti I knew that something was going to be really bad
Even the 750ti is too powerful for s80😂😂😂 i doubt they got anything older/worse than the 750ti
The word "bad" and 750ti should NEVER be written in the same sentence! That's the legend of all legends.
I ran my old OC 750ti in cp2077 in a 30min loop on 1080 ultra (obviously getting single digit fps) but the card DID NOT give a crash! How crazy is that?! It won't go down Lmao
@@upfront2375 it's a fucking legend compared to s80
@@upfront2375 Agreed on the praise! I'm running a 750ti now.
@@koomo801 I recently retired mine and replaced with a rx580 on my old ddr3 machine. The card never gives any errors in hrs of benchmarks, but boi lemme tell you in games... I lost count of my tweaks and driver tryouts per month!
Still getting random reboots and crashes with it, I think it either nearly busted a cap on my mobo or the old 550w coolermaster PSU bcoz I'm getting random shutdown-reboots on booting now SMH My windforce 750ti is laughing at me inside it's huge box now Lol
I think the memory layout is actually just for trace length, which would otherwise be longer for the chips at the top and bottom, rather than avoiding screw holes. You can see a similar thing on the old AMD R9 270X, for example - with no adjacent screw holes in that case.
Yes, the memory PCB layout looks logical, no chaos at all.
Not a GPU but the PS5 does the same thing with its memory modules
Issues aside, I think this is really cool to see Power VR in the GPU scene again. To create a modern day GPU is insanely difficult. Just to get it working like that must have been an incredible undertaking.
Not really - they got a huge boost because China straight up stole nvidias r&d.
Power VR has always been in phone graphics I think so they should have at least some clue.
The investment is insane to produce gpu, China is pumping up billions and billions in this area due to the restrictions
I hope this puts into perspective for some people how amazingly well Arc has been doing since launch.
Cheers to that, indeed.
Yes...to a point. Thing is that intel has decades of experience making CPU's and decades of experience making GPU for the laptop space. Somehow translating that to something they can walk down the hall to ask for a specbook about had um "launch challenges".
If there able to fix their video encoding thing, that will be a great start for intel
Most definitely. The A770 has been treating me quite well; I got the LE a week after launch and I received the Acer Predator Bifrost as an X-mas present.
I knew what I was signing up for when I opted for Arc, and frankly I was expecting a lot worse, so I was pleasantly surprised when the released product was a lot more reliable than the old ATI->AMD transition-era cards and drivers.
Back then it was a game of rolling back driver versions after new patches fixed one thing but broke something else, so you'd roll back to older drivers that may not have worked fully but worked well enough. Not so much the case with Arc.
Arc drivers have only been getting better as they release, so that alone is praiseworthy. I've been running PCMark after every update and the performance of the card has a positive linear correlation over time, so I get to see how the same hardware is made better over time with better-written software.
nope it should make people realize why nvidia like to charge an amr and leg for their gpu. we have ARM, Imagination And Qualcomm that have gpu IP and make gpu for mobile segment but none of them dare to enter pc discrete gpu market. intel, yeah nice effort for them but the reality for them is Arc still cannot generate profit for the company. if battlemage still can't then intel probably will quit making discrete gpu for consumer.
It's mind blowing to me that I see a video with 750ti benchmarks in 2023 that's relevant.
Early days of nVidia and ATI were riddled with driver problems with games. I think this would be a good revisit in a year or so and see if the drivers matured.
I doubt there will be any noticeable support, this isnt an international product.
The tech also just seems insufficient for gaming.
Early ATI = Drivers for CGA Cards?
Early nVidia = Less Driver and more bad DX5 support in games.
@@termitreter6545 sometimes I make my creations better or done
even not making an international product
it will probably be more than a year, he should check back in 5 years or when they launch another product.
Well, they were trailblazers, especially nVidia, that buys you a little more leeway than a copycat entering the market over 20 years later (which is a few eternities in computers)
The thing that interests me most about this GPU is that it's apparently based off of PowerVR IP and even shares parts of its driver code with some of the newer PowerVR GPUs. Meaning that technically the modern GPU landscape reflects the history of GPUs almost perfectly:
nVidia was one of the primary companies pushing 3D gaming and features that help make it better even back when 3DFX was king, today they've got the most features and usually the fastest GPUs even if you're going to be paying a lot for that.
ATi/AMD have always had an on/off reputation about drivers (I've had no major issues personally, but the reputation is undeniable whether you believe it's justified or not) and often haven't managed to be truly competitive on a performance level, but manage to make it up through increased value or features. One of their bigger successes with GPUs is being able to integrate their IP into AMDs CPUs for some of the fastest iGPUs around.
Intel was solely focused on ensuring you have a display output that can play a DVD or the like for a number of years until they started also focusing a bit more on gaming in an effort to stem competition from AMDs iGPUs, now they're trying to make full-fledged gaming focused dGPUs that relative lack of experience with gaming GPUs in general shows in that it's not a completely horrible experience but you'll absolutely run into bugs you won't see on nVidia or AMD.
Finally, PowerVR abandoned the desktop entirely around something like the year 2000 after the Kyro GPU failed, now we're seeing a modern dGPU based on their tech being practically useless because of all the issues and bugs due to the complete lack of not just 3D gaming GPU experience, but even (afaik anyway) a relative lack of focus on PCs in general.
Just goes to show how difficult it is to enter the dGPU market, there's a reason why only 2 players survived (GeForce, Radeon) and now we have a 3rd one (Arc) after so many years.
there's a lot more than 2(3). They are just highly specialized. Look at Matrox
Yep, anyone whom scoffs or is outright let down at these efforts is a soggy midwit whom knows NOTHING of how much of a monumental task making a gpu is. This attempt is more inline with how it usually goes when a 3rd party tries to entire. Intel Arc hit the ground running and spun doing olympian tier backflips compared to what informed expectations were.
@@GewelReal True, but in the context of what he was saying Matrox would nowadays technically be a Radeon board partner, as those are the gpu cores they use. Yeah Matrox certainly puts a lot of engineering in, but not designing gpu engineering like they did back in the day.
Don't forget that while Intel Arc is a new player, Intel has been working for decades on iGPU drivers.
@@GewelReal matrox relies heavily on AMDs work, they do a good amount of their own, but the core of the cards are AMD silicon
I am VERY excited to see more competitors, regardless of performance.
Sanctions will apply if they got good, eventually
I don't think so, even though AMD is competitive in raster performance still people simp for Nvidia.
Anyone easing pressure in some part of the GPU market in 10 years time is welcome 😂
@@yellowflash511 AMD IS really competitive in rasterization - you're right. But the main problem with AMD is their performance per watt and, just like Nvidia, performance per dollar (or whatever currency you use). They're overpriced and their power efficiency is quite awful compared to Nvidia, especially when you compare stuff like 4060 ti vs 7600 and 4080 vs 7900 XTX. They obviously keep messing up their opportunities to counter Nvidia's shady monopoly practices and rushing mediocre products as a result. Nvidia AND AMD are getting a lot of shit rn, and most people are either buying the 4090, 7900 XTX, or, better yet, previous gen GPUs like they should be. People are finally voting with their wallets, so next gen sounds like it will (should) be good, especially with Nvidia delaying Blackwell and AMD trying their best to back out of the current market.
Right now, Intel is in the best spot with Battlemage, and with how Alchemist is going, there is a lot to expect, but not too much because, uh, Intel being Intel. Hopefully they can do something good in Q1 2024.
@@yellowflash511 AMD is inferior products forcefully made cheaper while retaining gigantic margins. Far inferior power efficiency, Still can't RT, still has no reflex, still has no FSR3 or AI solution to upscaling (Intel does), Hypr RX was to release in 2022, never came and has no release date, RDNA2 does not even have AV1. Nvidias "competition" is akin to Intels in the CPU space when all AMD could do was rehash excavators and for a decade forgot to make a decent CPU while fanboys shouted "look at all these cores for just 149$ yet people simp for intel". Please do bring more manufacturers to the space, AMD does not cut it.
I'm impressed that there are some that are even trying to take on the 3 GPU giants. I'm all for the good competitiveness.
They are not 'taking on' 3 giants...they are trying to lock in the Chinese market in response to the 3 giants being locked out at the high end.
All thanks to the US and the sanctions. If this is the progress in 1 year, I would not be totally surprised if the next iteration is decent in another year
@@christianvanderstap6257 This is not that simple, you cannot just balst the competition without years of experience which is waht most poeple on the internet does not get, everyone thinks they can do better but hey Dunning-Kruger effect is core of our existence.
@@motherpigeon1582 people will invest for experience, same with huawei, and were the first to roll a mass production foldable phone
@@motherpigeon1582 it wont be easy for the chinese manufacturer but so was back when everyone laughed at their attempt to cell phones and they actually managed to be a competitor in a few years of what US build in 20
G'day Steve,
You for got to praise Moore's Threads for not using Glue
BIG THANKS to Tyler for lending the S80 for the content, especially letting Steve open it (Considering we have seen he is not afraid to get the Dremel 😂)
WOW! The GN Team is really killing it with content that is educational + immensely interesting, you all are doing such an Awesome Job.
So nice to hear even a passing mention to Fairchild Semiconductor. Worked for them in '99 and loved the work running the Photo Lithography machines. Great power MOSFET's.
Any comment about the missing airplane?
How to become like you?
This is probably what Nvidia thought it was competing against in the $400 price point when they launched their "4060ti"..
Sad part is you can't blame them, until majority of people continue to buy their stuff, even if there are better options around. They sell less cards but so does their competitors, so why should they bother to change their line of work?
Atleast they didn't bother with 8 gigs of vram and went strait to 16. 🤣
@@GoonyMclinux which is great...if it could be used properly. A 9 y/o 2GB entry level card proved itself better (more or less). But yes in all fairness they had zero prior experience with manufacturing GPUs & designed these cards less than 12 months after even hiring the staff to work on them
@@MicheleGardini I'm beginning to hate this argument. There is no changing a mass cultural acceptance. Instead, the only change that can happen in this space is far more direct. Far more direct.
Yes, I can and will blame them. Instead of blaming people for corporate world domination, let's blame a lack of government oversight. And, to be completely honest, a lack of direct action against individuals at the top of these corporations.
@@TRAMP-oline and i hate it too. The problem is, you can hate it and still stay the way it is. Because to have government control and direct action against those who run companies on a global scale, a very strong popular push is needed. So...
Bizarre never-seen-before grounding tab: This is most likely for debug to connect the ground wire of an oscilloscope or voltage probe. Many boards lack convenient grounding points for probing, which makes debug of prototype and production boards difficult. However, when I design a ground point into a card design, I include several on both sides of the board to minimize the ground lead length. I also use test point hardware that is easy to clip an alligator clip to without shorting to nearby components. Some might say that the preponderance of BGA packages makes this irrelevant, however, probing of connectors, resistors and intentionally added signal test pads is still done. Designers that don't provide access to critical signals for debug screw over the people responsible for board test.
This really makes me appreciate what Intel is doing.
the more GPU makers we getting the better for consumer
It's like really appreciating a monopoly practically on CPU chips. Microsoft will grab Apple/Intel to consolidate the entire industry into one company!
@@cactuslietuva We can all agree, but not from CCP-China. This one we can obviously avoid like the plague and I mean that almost literally.
Naw fuck Intel, they had experience with integrated graphics for a long time and never bothered. While sitting on their quad core 14nm throne for nearly a decade and strong-arming OEMs.
@@janus3555 I still see everyone benefitting if China made cards that could do most tasks and are extremely cheap to produce. The first world wouldn't benefit too much, but the poorer areas of the world would have more access technology. It would be better if PC parts could be more standardized in general. Software would be easier and cheaper to produce
If I had to guess, the outer memory chips being "closer" to the GPU would be to have equal length traces with the other chips without having to do weird routes (or doing it less really)
Exactly what I'm thinking, but this practice is more common on high-speed pcb designs, not sure why this happens to a graphic card.
@@michaellu8879 Surely the memory and the GPU are running clocks upwards of 2 GHz? I'd say that's plenty high-speed enough.
Yeah, that layout looks a lot like console ones. They maybe have people with experience on that area of design.
@@P4NCH1or mobile GPUs. Where it’s often forked from a scaled down version of a 10+ year old design, scaling that old hardware up, in order to skip patents and jump into the same competitive market.
Sort of like taking a toy “drivable” Porsche, scaling it into a real scale Porsche and driving it around. And wondering why it won’t drive like the original.
@@michaellu8879 Memory is both a high-speed and high-sensitivity design area. It's why you see things like soldered LPDDR5X in laptops pushing way higher speeds than SODIMM ever will, and part of why CAMM was introduced. Trace length matters a lot for memory. My area of expertise was VRMs and chipset connectivity at Gigabyte, and for the latter trace length also started to matter a lot more with PCIE3.0 and then 4.0 becoming a thing as transmission speeds went up.
That idle power draw was the most eye-raising thing for me, and there were eye-raising things aplenty in this review.
considering it is maxing out only 40 watts higher, it is probably just some windows related driver bug. AMD had a very similar issue with high idle power draw on there 7900xts at launch. Think they were pulling like 150 at idle
What this guy wanted to say is "China bad, China is spying, bla bla bla..." That is why he is pointing out idle power draw....
It would be more reasonable to solder inside second cheap chip like GT9500 so cart could work using it while ide, for power savings 😆😆
Honestly, this is a very interesting look into a new manufacturer attempting to get into the market (even if it's only in their own locale) and a good showcase of how hard it is to get these GPUs working, let alone optimized or even just fully functional.
Have to express my thanks as a viewer to Tyler as well for providing the card to you guys.
I really wonder if a lot of the problems with the card are driver/firmware based and in six month's time, they manage to get it much improved on the same hardware. I hope so!
You're hoping for the development of Chinese espionage? 😂🤣💀
It's literally designed solely for the Chinese market... Who are they going to commit espionage against, themselves?
@@renewagain6956 He's inferring that Chinese companies steal all the relavent IP's and technology as they cannot design their own. He's 100% correct.
@@renewagain6956 ignoring the widespread blatant IP theft ...
Yes. Indeed the Chinese have cannibalized themselves before... See "The Great Leap Forward"
@@renewagain6956 ..or look at all the 🇨🇳 quad-copter or 3D printer clones of clones of clones...🤣
there is this compatibility layer called Cuda on MUSA which will allow CUDA instructions to run on this card. it would be nice to see that in action if you can manage to show that somehow by help from the engineers.
Thats because it probably is CUDA because its just a re-etched nvidia chip, just like china's "home grown" x86 processor was a re-etched Intel chip
@@BurritoMagnificostatement is incredibly incorrect you demonstrated that you didn't watch the video at all. As such your opinion on the matter is irrelevant.
@@cybercat1531 You never know with chinese companies this might be a partially reverse engineered old nvidia chip with shit drivers. They claim it's an original architecture but who knows, it's interesting that it has a compability layer with nvidia cards when it doesn't even work right %90 of time by itself though.
@@BurritoMagnifico That's not how it works, you can't "re-etch" things outside of the foundry they were designed for and the foundry will realize pretty quickly that you are sending a copycat so you can't have them do your knock offs either. China's "home grown" x86 processor is a derivative of VIA's x86 Eden processors (VIA actually still has the x86-64 license given ages ago) which they developed by (surprise surprise) paying VIA Taiwan to develop it.
This card is most likely built on stolen IP and poached engineers (as is custom with most "developed in china" stuff) but the idea that it's a "re-etched" is ridicolous. We are not discussing random aliexpress sellers recycling old chips, this venture is trying to get some form of "home grown" GPU technology similar to the x86 processor
@@cin2110 Intel has a CUDA compatibility layer for years, same AMD. Does this mean they are using the same NVIDIA designs? No it does not. Compatibility layer means it remaps the calls so it can work on different hardware.
I LOVE this even if it's rough as hell rn. Reminds me of the late 90s 3d accelerator boom with like a half a dozen of competing architectures.
I don’t know how you kept even and unbiased in this. You’re a good man sir!
I like the aesthetics and ease of teardown. Hopefully if it's PowerVR-based, they'll get up and running with actual performance under Linux for Vulkan and AI-related tasks. It could definitely find a niche in the west if cheap.
Linux and Vulkan would be better to target for them. Easier to get what they need.
If it's PowerVR-based, on the contrary, it is doomed to fail in Linux. Imagination has never been arsed to support their PowerVR products in Linux for years now (remember the scandal involving the Intel GMA500?), only recently they started offering Open-Source tools and drivers for the Rogue PowerVR architecture, the one before the BXT.
Considering they are having trouble just getting game drivers to work, I doubt it will be very competitive for AI. AMD has been trying to get into that market for a decade and still can't even though there is a massive financial incentive. No one will use your card if half their programs don't work out of the box with it. If George Hotz gives up trying to write drivers for your card, then you are screwed.
yea microsoft & apple can just as easily close doors to china so it'd be smart for them to ignore it
Still don't think it would be comparable to low end "cheap" Nvidia, AMD or Intel GPUs. They are trying to sell this S80 for $400 and it doesn't even work for most applications! They will need to make massive strides in functionality, software, manufacturing and price to performance overall to have any kind of chance even in the low end. I mean, consider most Intel and AMD CPUs already come with an iGPU that is orders of magnitude better than this thing. Moore Threads just isn't even competitive on that level yet.
I think it would have been insightful in this case to see the performance compared with modern iGPU performance numbers in addition to the 750 ti. These numbers suddenly make my 5 year old laptop with a mobile 1060 feel like I'm a baller.
bro lollololll
The 750ti gives more than enough data to tell you what you need to know. A 780M would blow this crap product out of the water.
i think people doesn't understand that this GPU isn't running at full power. Probably 20-30%. It lacks driver optimization which needs more time
@@cactuslietuva So, it will go from shit to crap?
We had the 16-series cards in there too. An IGP wouldn't really give us any different information.
Please do more on this. And maybe others.
I'm incredibly interested in how these may turn out.
I'm only 11 minutes into your video and more than anything, I'm impressed with the effort you're putting into the mandarin tones.
If they can nail down performance in popular titles in China or Asia at large, I could see them moving enough hardware to float R&D for a little while. Such a big market.
It's impressive they can get something working at any level in such a short amount of time. Even if they took powerVR as a reference it will be interesting to see if they can survive and what they bring to the table after some time to mature into a teenage company.
Also, where's the Cute Pet version?
Let’s get real. No gamer is going to buy this crap. Integrated graphics is better 😂
Maybe - wonder why they started out with something that massive though and not something a bit smaller akin to the gpu part in mobile SOCs if the market is more mmos and internet cafe stuff.
@@olnnn realistically, the small-scale GPU market is completely saturated whereas the gaming and GPGPU market is dominated by one, and generously two players with one new IP coming into the mix.
I think the go big or go home model applies here. Intel's A380 and smaller tests were a fun side note until the A700 series hit and people began to pay attention.
Who knows how it will go, but I like it as a story and as an effort that will certainly go down in legend regardless of the outcome. Imagine if 3Dfx was able to get their shit together and we had them with their own architecture still around
The popular titles in China is… the same else where, League of Legends, Final Fantasy XIV, EldenRing… you name it… plenty of people were upset then WoW shutdown in China…
I do know Modern Warfare 4 was initially banned in China… guess they really don’t like being involved in a war.
@@AaronShenghao I mean more cyber-cafe type titles. LoL definitely one, but I say if they can carve out a small market in the complete landscape, that's still a huge amount of interest for how dense the market is.
To put into perspective how bad these results are, the Steam Deck is a bit faster or the same performance as a 750Ti in most games (this is according to DF).
So at 15W the Steam Deck is about twice as fast as this card using over 130W.
@@jakejakedowntwo6613
The Mac never used PowerVR, it used PowerPC. Those are completely unrelated.
This card is also completely unrelated to PowerVR. PowerVR is a designer of TBDR GPUs mostly used in mobile devices. They don't support Windows and they don't support any kind of DirectX nowadays anymore. Their targets are Vulkan, OpenGL ES and Linux/Android.
@@dexterhaxxor my bad i mixed the two up
Edit: GN speculate that it could be Power Vr via circumstantial evidence and it could be performing terribly since it wasn't designed well for gaming.
BullsLab tested its float performance and it was good.
Also Imagination Technologies is owned by China.
@@dexterhaxxor The Mac didn't, Apple used PowerVR for their GPU's in the Early Iphone's and Ipad's.
Somewhere around 2016-2017 is when they stopped using PowerVR and started designing their own GPU's for their mobile devices.
@@Bogster13 Ah alright, makes sense, didn't know that. Anyway, PowerVR definitely doesn't make bad GPUs.
RE. the memory spacing. While it may be correct (or also correct) that the memory has been moved to avoid the screw holes, its also possible that they may have moved the memory closer to shorten the traces as high frequency switching is very sensitive to length. Also, it could be an attempt to get a working board with less layers to reduce cost (reducing the path the signal has to travel reduces the amount of time interference is experienced by a particular signal). Thus, they may be able to use less layers.
This is almost nostalgic in how broken it is. Back in the day there were a few '3D' cards released that were broken on a silicon level and barely functioned.
Hi GN, please review the new Sparkle Intel Arc GPUs
Starting to work towards that!
I really like how it is constructed. simple effective design.
That Mandarin pronunciation of Jams Zhang was really pretty good! I know Steve speaks Mandarins but I didn't know his pronunciation was this good!
You should test the jitter-issue by loading card to 90-95%. See if the high frametimes disappear.
i want to see more testing on the 7900 xtx now after multiple drivers have come out. I have been enjoying my sapphire nitro card but enabling smart access memory causes issues in some games
I'll bet the heatsink was some off the shelf generic cooler and so they adapted the PCB design and moved the Memory so that they could still use it. I kind of like the way the card looks. Very interesting product, thanks for the video!
Doesn’t look like it, have you ever seen a recent GPU have heat sink screwed form the front? They all screwed in from the back. And look at that hole spacing… most GPU I can across are square, not rectangle.
The fans are off the shelf cheap garbage too, about 12 yuan each on TaoBao.
24:26 at first I thought I saw a DC-barrel plug, only after reviewing it a second time I figured out it was the end of a heatpipe. With this product it wouldn't even surprise me that much :)
27:16 Not just to avoid the screw holes, but it would place the outer chips closer to the die. So there are performance reasons to do this. I suspect the BGA Balls on the chip for the memory are placed differently to nvidia designs. It would be interesting to confirm this though. It would also make trace routing a lot easier, which would be important for a card with a short development lifecycle.
Regarding the upper location of the power delivery: other cards have done this as well (pro vega 2 duo and Pro V430 come to mind). I think it makes a lot of sense for a PCB of this size. There is not quite enough room to put it in other places without moving the GPU core around.
If this is a domestic GPU, I wonder if it has better Linux performance.
In 2016 i remember the chinese creating dslr lenses at half the price and superior lens quality. They have done this in every field. Now GPU's. It will take a bit of time, but the chinese are fast.
Looks like it does have a binary-only Linux driver. They advertise support for Vulkan 1.3, which theoretically should run dxvk. So it's plausible.
It's very disappointing - everyone I've seen has clowned on the windows performance and rightfully so but I've not seen a single Linux benchmark of the card anywhere?
@@starsnstrife”Superior lens quality” is just not true. Even today it’s not true. At *best* it’s similar quality to your standard glass manufacturers, but in practice most of those lenses you’re talking about have noticeable issues. I wish you were correct!
@@starsnstrife Because they steal western IP
People seem more concerned with the results. My 1st thought is how well they've done to make this card in less than 2 years. If they can keep the business running, in the next 5 -10 years, they could be coming out with some impressive cards.
@@dieselbaby the business is very much still about individual people, more than maybe seems evident from outside the industry. Companies hire some key people to get them off the field as competition.
@@marcocomparato5564 Doesn't matter, it is easy to poach people that have worked in the field, especially if the CCP is giving them a blank check. Honestly, the IP is probably more important.
@@macicoinc9363 It's so crazy that everything we do in the computing world is literally built on the backs of these suit wearing chads doing math with slide rules and what not. I don't want to cast any shade on modern engineers but the things they could do back then was just amazing. Same in literature same everywhere I look. We are children in a world made by giants.
@@dieselbaby I mean all of US industrialization was based on what they stole from the british. Everyone steals from everyone, its normal.
They used other people's IP and slapped it together.
I find this an interesting card from a hardware point of view and I would quite happily collect one to go with some of the other low volume weird and wonderful hardware I own such as Amiga add-on cards, such as the Phase5 PPC/68k 060 PCI card I own and used back in the late 90's mainly for 68K Mac emulation.
It would also be interesting to revisit this card in 6 months or a year as if the issue are with the drivers rather than the hardware the compatibility and 0.1 percent lows could improve to make it a usable card for running DX9 and DX11 software even if its not competitive from a performance or price point of view with other modern GPUs.
Im not sure about this, but will it run better on linux? And is it possible to get the latest drivers?
The fact that this thing works in literally any capacity is genuinely very impressive.
Can definitely tell that it only works because of the code they stole being somewhat functional, but its crap because they probably barely understand how it works lol
@@Xeonerable Got a source on that code stealing claim?
@@Xeonerablehow can you tell.
Stolen code for different hardware doesn’t really mean anything if underlying architecture is different.
No it isn't. This isn't some dude who made this in his garage. It's a full-fledged company with tons of resources. It's not impressive that it barely works, it's a disaster.
@@Robbie-mw5uu honestly it is.
If it’s that easy, there’d be more than 2 major players in the game.
If it’s that easy, Intel, a company has decades of experience of silicon design and manufacturing under their belt, wouldn’t be having their problems launching their own lineups.
Thank you for covering this. I might buy one for novelty sake one day. I hope they survive to make better ones.
Make sure it's a completely disconnected machine and do not interconnect it with other machines or mobile devices if you do so.
@@janus3555 You're so absolutely cute mister 3 letter man. You're right we need only NSA back doored devices. My data belongs to 5 eyes not insert eye joke.
Beautiful shroud, I hope they make the drivers work one day.
When I first saw reviews of this video card I was having a flashback to the 2010. My friend just bought a Chinese Android smartphone powered by a processor from some small semiconductor vendor, Mediatek. It was an absolute trainwreck of a device, including a malfunctioning FPU, so some apps (including a default calculator app) were hard-crashing it.
And here we are in 2020ies with hundreds of premium phones featuring Mediatek SoCs coming out every year.
Of course this is not a direct comparison, but still as they say "the road is paved under footsteps of one who's walking". I really hope we'd see another contestant in the desktop GPU segment.
Yes, it is exciting to see others doing stuff in the GPU market! Their time line was incredible, but if their follow up on updating drivers and such is just as exciting, I think we have a number 4!
😡 number 4?!? 😡
You make Winnie the Pooh angry!
🇨🇳 #1
Hopefully they sticks around long enough for good drivers.
My former higher up is the Product Manager of this GPU and he refused to answer calls from Linus a few months ago lol
Nice testing. A lot of people at IMG were wondering what they've managed to do with the core. They've been very secretive about it.
Probably because "first generation MUSA architecture" sounds cooler to investors than "some powervr stuff we got off the shelf" :)
BullsLab is right about what GPU it is. As for node, it's hard to tell even with inside info. Could be TSMC N12 like the S60, could be N7.
The GPU might not be theirs but the driver is. Hard to tell to what extent, but we didn't even have a working D3D driver at the time...
It might be a bit rubbish, but considering the timeline, language barrier, their refusal to ask for support, etc. they didn't do a half bad job.
I wanna see it's full potential with a fully optimized driver. Of course it'll still probably be crap but that's for later generations to improve
Oh boy, can't wait to see how does it work on unix-like systems and what the community can squeeze of of it.
PS: 100+W consumption in idle is insane
RDNA 3 , hold my chiplets
To me, it's interesting to see this new company pop up, creating its own *everything*, in an attempt to seemingly only compete in the Chinese market. Sure, this S80 might be hot garbage today, but who knows where the company will be in two years? They're getting handily beaten by a GTX 750 today and can't even launch most games, but who's to say that trend will continue?
I'm interested in seeing more content about this company and its GPUs, and hope you guys will be able to cover them, whenever possible.
Don't worry, they will get better and better, even if they fall, more GPU manufacturers will be founded in China and they'll overtake AMD and NVIDIA, just like Huawei's Kirin chips overtake MediaTek, and then they'll be sanctioned by the US, if china hasn't mastered the chip industry chain by then and the US still has the ability to sanction China.
@@helloworld5334 They need to stop sanctioning China for no reason.
I would love to see the cpu load in comparison to other cards while benchmarking to see if it offloads frame generation to cpu or something.
I like how you get the tones of those Chinese characters right!
Appears to be less performant than the last several iGPU generations, but for a very new and experimental card.. it works. Concur with it being mostly a collector's item. Re: metal/aluminium body: is the material handling or machining simpler or cheaper than for a polymer/plastic body?
Steve's reviews are perfect to sit back, relax and grab some snacks
I ate dinner! A tasty piece of grilled pork loin! Cheers!
when a product like this flounders so much...is it because of the drivers like in intels case or is it due to the hardware here. in other words could they gain ground at this point just with better software driver solutions?
nice work pronuncing the name of the founder, sounded a lot like a native speaker 👍
Not only is it working (albeit poor performing), I love the fact that the big two are finally getting some competition even if its not going to knock them off the top anytime soon its potentially some stiff competition in the future which they clearly need atm with their astronomical prices!!
bro, hillary clinton already said "you cant compete China" see that video, the old woman have info from experts, then you will understand why China will destroy amd nvidia and intel in our life, just right now is not important to make video cards for gaming, all the most important tech China is already number 1.
Gotta say, they settled on a pretty snazzy cooler design. Would be nice if more AIB's would make slick, normal designs.
This is a perfect video. It is most resilient and also fertil! Excellent.
Steve's Chinese pronunciation is on point, great review as always!
Intel: Delivers one of the most unstable GPUs we've seen in a very long time
Moore Threads: "Hold my bear"
panda*
@@manakajunpei9007 Hold my bamboo.
Yes but Intel has been making iGPUs and drivers for decades. This is MT's first GPU ever. Big difference there.
@@andrewskaterrr Yup, that's the only reason they even remotely have a fighting chance. Even then, they seem to be continuing their track record of shoddy driver updates. Lots of people with Arc GPUs can't even wake their system up from sleep mode which has been a know issue for many months, lol
@@BelleDoesStuff 'shoddy driver updates'?? Lol, their updates have been on fire and they are improving with each iteration.
I think part of the issue here is that for a very long time, there have only been 2 GPU manufacturers (mostly nvidia), and games are probably designed with those specific manufacturer GPUs in mind, so they would be coded to work with their quirks. If you introduce a new GPU with its own quirks, even if it's fully compatible at the API level and technically capable, it will never perform as well because the games simply werent designed around it.
Very interesting content, thanks.
4:45 Loving who I assume is Jams Zhang doing his best knockoff Jensen Huang announcing the GPU, and the slightly different (and leather jacket adorned, as is tradition) take at 7:50.
The physical heatsink and card layout actually seems pretty nice, and the connectorized fans and header plug in the shroud actually seems pretty convenient from a maintenance and replacement perspective.
I would be interested to know whether the connector on the PCB itself is an actual PCIe power connector rather than the weird EPS12V connector you mentioned that the card uses at the edge.
GTX 750ti is a legend. It was a very good card at the time for not much money and it used very little power. In fact it remained pretty usable until only recently.
Today's market would need some of that GTX 750 style variation like salt .RTX 4090 is not what the mainstream would expect or be willing to run.
@@czviktor yes. For about 10-15 years of PC gaming I always bought cards in the 150-250 dollar price range and they were always very good. I even bought a sub 100 dollar cars sometimes and while it wasn’t possible to max out settings it was still very capable like the Radeon HD 5670 that was a lower mid range card I paid I think 99 bucks for or something like that in 2010. Now I’m used to thinking sub 1000 is decent pricing. I’m almost disgusted by how my idea of what is inexpensive has changed in the last few years.
The fact they made it work at all is impressive just by itself. If they can get funding for another 10 years of R&D and they spend the money well enough they might become a serious player
Ben Eater
Let's hope so. Really need some strong international competition to the American cartel
Doubt that. They may catch up to where other GPUs were several years ago but everyone else (Nvidia, AMD, Intel) will be 10 years more advanced from current offerings.
There's always a shortcut which is if they could still Nvidia or AMD schematics and technologies and start from there 😁
@@samhillebrand China has a ton of money and its industrial capacity is greater than that of the US. I think this is going somewhere.
What's an up to date video on price to performance on new cards? I have been a bit out of the loop and last I heard the only reason to get intel was video encode...
I think this might be part of larger Chinese push to create a fullly homegrown market. I suspect we will see a lot more "jumpstarted" companies using adapted IP from other companies before forking off like what MoorTT is doing. I suspect this push is meant to go hand in hand with the Chinese linux distro push as well
Think I would modify your statement to "a lot more "jumpstarted" companies using pirated and stolen IP from other companies"
@@danielstewart7732 Pirated and Stolen assumes that its not state sponsored, I'm sure these companies would prefer the term "privateers" :P
"adapted IP" is an interesting way to say "theft"
Well the Russians need to buy their stuff from somewhere now lol
@@danielstewart7732 you say that like nvidia and intel dont steal from other companies, corporate espianoge is like, a standard practice in any industry, its not unique to china, and yet, you only ever focus on china, curious isnt it?
I actually like the extension cable, so it's not sticking out the middle of the card.
Hilarious results though. Amazing they even bothered releasing this to the public.
they need them paper launches for funding.
i love the alu shroud , the construction looks great all around aside from the weird cable extension and maybe if it were more open at the back where theres no board , but that works i guess, be great to see what it could do with decent drivers , hopefully they persevere
would the die-memory-tie-fighter-layout help with lane lengths? Could make them more uniform, no?
ngl when you were recounting the history of Moore and the Traitorous Eight I thought you were going to tell the story of the name "Moore-Noyce" and Moore himself saying it was a bad idea because it sounded like "More Noise", a bit of engineering jargon that sounded like bad branding for a semiconductors company. That's when they settled on the name Intel.
And that it was ominous for Moore Threads to try that kinda naming scheme again.
This shows just how hard it is make GPUs that work well. Undoubtedly this card has much more performance to give, but it'll probably never be realized due to driver & compatibility issues. Also shows just how much of a powerhouse chip maker Intel is. While ARC may not impress compared to current AMD & Nvidia offerings, comparing ARC to Moore Threads shows us Intel actually pulled a damn near miracle with ARC!
Intel had a giant head start with their integrated graphics being used in laptops and shitty desktops all over the world. They didn't pull a "miracle"; they landed right about in the middle of the range of possibilities, given their starting point.
@@Ithirahad I'd agree with you if the ARC team had the full backing of Intel. Although it seems like they put ARC on a backburner with a skeleton crew, almost hoping it would fail. That's more the miracle I was thinking of TBH.
@@robr640 Frankly it sounds more like the Arc team was just taking too much time and money and Raja may have been lying about how close they were to a releasable product, forcing Intel leadership to reabsorb the graphics department and take away their independence. Ideally they would just appoint new leadership, but even Intel doesn't have infinite money or time to dedicate to anything.
@@Ithirahad That is a good point, Raja is definitely know for stretching the truth LOL!
The assembly is quite impressive to me. Looks really solid and serviceable
your mandarin really benefits your channel..I think it will continue to allow a lot more growth....telling you this because "random viewer must explain things you already are aware of"... :)
Writing GPU drivers is INCREDIBLY complex, so for me just even running a few games, is impressive.
No, what's impressive is that supposedly people are buying a complete crap, over-priced, almost worthless POS. If this were sold anywhere but China, it would probably constitute an actual crime.
@@braddishv3146 nonsense.
If that would be a "made in the USA" card, where no single part would be sourced outside the USA, it would be an "impressive piece of hardware, which did not require any knowledge or resources from outside the USA", making it the perfect patriotic card.
All with the saying "we still need to do a lot of work to get it right, but look how far we've come!"
@@bernds6587that card would be so expensive no one would buy it, an unfortunate side effect of shipping work off to the east, is that we exploit the workers and take the rest off the top
Proof that you can't just steal designs, you also need to have compatable firmware and drivers
@@AegisHyperon oh yeah, you can make all the hardware you want, but if you don't have a way for the hardware to talk with the rest of the system, it won't work
New to your channel, and I can't Believe I'm saying something as sappy as this. But as a Chinese person, man does it feel good to hear someone speak our language with authentic pronunciation
Gives a whole new meaning to the phrase “Did I stutter?”
Have you tried it with a different OS? Like various Linux distros?
Thanks for reviee. I hope Intel will be able to take place in GPU market as well
Definitely a long road ahead for MTT but what a brave and bold attempt. Keep it up MTT!
I don't have any ill wishes toward them, but I'm kinda of apathetic toward caring about whether or not they succeed if they're not going to try to sell to markets outside of China. Kinda just like, "Good for you sport, helping out those Chinese gamers I guess. Maybe one day over there they'll have more cost effective GPUs available. Yay?"
@@futuza it might actually force western companies to be more competitive in the future to compete in the global south.
you know steve, the greatest victory for this GPU is actually getting visibility in famous test channels like yours
Prop to Steve pronouncing names with effort shown. The current lineup offered is mainly for investment presentation and small batch procurements from limited enterprise/government sectors. Drivers are also pushing out every now and then, which have at least significant level to GPU's compatibility and general optimization. I wish Steve can do some followup reviews for those early products if next gen products are to be released in future.
p.s. the buzzword meta used in ad materials usually just mean a role in cloud computing environment, and investment attraction.
That power cable hider looks like it helps retain the cable extender to the card as well.
Interesting the focus of this GPU is not the latest APIs but older DirectX specifically. One would think China wanted to get away from Windows.
Like Apple any better with their OpenGL lacked behind almost decade and then they jumped to copycat metal surface.
@@XantheFINpple is also American. I would think they would be more focused on Linux since it cannot be restricted, lol. With Linux focus on Vulkan, which does also work in Windows. Metal is very similar to Vulkan.
@@AndersHass They are actually more using BSD kernel and not Linux but yeah.
Edit: Why big companies go after BSD? Licensing. They don't need publish source codes example.
because gaming is not the main focus. that's why despite the raw power gaming performance was terrible.
@@arenzricodexd4409 what was the point of the GPU? Bit big for just displaying things lol
That NFS slideshow is a throwback to Race Drivin on SNES.
This is nostalgic indeed, I haven't seen stutters like that since the early 2000s
You get 2x-3x better performance with Vulkan on Ubuntu 20.04 FYI (using a custom Unity3D benchmark I made).
Windows D3D11 & Vulkan drivers suck BUT the card shows a lot of potential on Linux as being good for Proton if more Vulkan bugs can be fixed.
So, does it mine cryptocurrency the entire time it's idle? I can't imagine what else it could be doing with an idle draw that high. Also, a comparison to various IGPs would have been funny.
I mean AMD had ( I think they fixed it ) extremely high idle power usage as well. Bugs in the driver can cause it. If it is fixed now then it took them a fair while to do so.
probably not, the drivers are very bad, so it probably does a terrible job telling the card how much power it needs, GPUs without drivers would run at full power 24/7, its up to the drivers to control their power draw
@lilpain1997 RX 7900 already pulling more power at idle because the VRAM goes at 2500MHz in high resolutions
They released an update last week.. it's fixed it low resolutions, not high ones
My 7900xtx already pulling 107w at idle with one 4k - 120Hz screen (solo screen)
Probably something in the spyware, I mean drivers.
@@ryanspencer6778 Stop smoking crack please. To much media watching got your head spinning.
I really like the design of the fan setup as far as the cabling goes. Way better than the crap where it is a pain to remove the fans/cables because the all plug directly into the GPU board. This is a much better design.
Really interesting incite into the complex world of making gpu’s .
I hope they can be successful and end up with a competitive product. I also hope political tensions ease for a LOT of reasons, the least of which being the possibility of a potential new competitor in the future.
If you look at China's economy right now with the low levels of domestic consumption + a collapsing property market (which is where local governments had been getting all their funding and is why they were so eager to sell land to be built on regardless of demand being there or not), rapid onshoring by companies who'd previously invested heavily in China, and China's world-worst demographics, all on top of a single man now in full control who only attained a 6th grade education....things are going to be going in a bad direction for a while.
Personally, I hope someone like Qualcomm could enter the GPU market.
The problem is there's such a huge wall around the GPU market for new entries. Even game devs need to work extremely hard to ensure compatibility with both Nvidia and AMD. For a new company to enter the space there is going to be immense amount of brick walls to run into just getting the card commercially functional. I applaud any company giving it a go. Because AMD and Nvidia have decided to conspire together to manipulate market prices for their own gain. More competition is very much needed today more than ever before in the GPU space.
which is actually kinda weird, because ostensibly speaking, all graphics APIs are open standards- DirectX, OpenGL, Vulkan, and even OpenCL for compute, all of these are available for anyone to implement and are supposed to be implementation-agnostic. This would be as opposed to x86-64, where you just straight up only have three licensees (Intel, AMD, and Via Technologies), and nobody else is even allowed to implement the instruction set. You would think that it should be easier to make something that could at least function with all APIs and that getting performance would be the main difficulty
Nice, is the spyware it comes with a feature as well?
This is great for the market, this company will grow.
I think this is a very impressive result ! There is an unbelievable amount of Know How needed to build a "working" silicon and this in only 2 years ! Respect ,i hope they they will keep going!
They are working with the non-poached for Apple employees at Imagination Technologies a 38 year old company.