Great video, I like that you kept the fusion footage to a minimum and just talked about it or showed it on the side. Also the blend of slow motion and sped up footage was great! I can't wait to see more videos like this one!
Diesel Ramcharger Yeah, I definitely understand that there are a lot of viewers who do come here for the fusion content. I just wanted to express that I thought this video was very well edited, especially for people like me who like watching the machines make the cuts.
Amazing... I had no idea that could be done on a Haas. I will definitely bring this to my supervisors' attention. We have got to get faster at job shop work - this may be the proof I need to make it happen.
The technical content speaks for itself, and your production quality with the video is getting to the level I'd expect of at least Lakeshore, and at this rate Haas is going to get envious soon.
Eatongee I'm gonna take a guess and say the "high speed" was actually slower in cycle time. .05 step over vs .200 step over you'd have to be going over 4X faster on the feed to make up the difference Think it was 200ipm on the high speed? And was certainly going faster than 50ipm on the standard path. But would probably have much longer tool life using the high speed path which could be worth the extra time it takes in tooling cost and time down to replace the endmill.
minimovzEt smaller step over means smaller scallops on the roughing. The 6 flute will always leave a better finish than a 4. More flutes equals better finish
Mastercam has an option to slow the first pass down by a percentage, that's saved my bacon in the past it's a nice way to make sure your fixture offset is where you want it. Working at a mold shop put me in the habit of placing the fixture offset in the middle of material more often than not which might have saved the first endmill because the excess material would have been equally spread. Great toolpaths!! Thanks!
This is why if I can I always put my wcs on center Cuz then if the stock is oversized you have an equal still heavier cut on both sides but normally she will suffer though it
I also prefer WCS at center for every in-a-vice job, where I work we have a 0/+10mm(3/8in) tolerance on the saw and we program with a virtual stock of +12mm(1/2 inch) since we run our second setups on jigs or pallet, right after facing we make the dowel holes so its easy to restart a program if it has been moved (just zero in the dowel hole and add the offset from the CAD program and the zero is back where its suposed to be.
Looks like niagra is making a great tool! I buried an imco in steel like that before with my old Haas, the machine errored out before the tool broke!! I was able to get the chips dug out of the flutes and keep going! If I'm prototyping a lot of work I'll set the spindle overload down for just such instances, it my save expenses tooling.
Few questions..: 1) Which tool path was actually faster? 2) Could you have pushed the feed rate on the 6 flute? 3) How did the chips look, too hot, room to heat up (speed up?) Man I need a camera that does more than 120fps.. love those slow mo shots!
noticed you set the tool height to the center of your tool this can throw you off on any tool larger than 3/8" as the bottoms aren't exactly flat. Really gets you in trouble at 3/4"+. great video keep them coming.
I see Dennis! Very cool that you got a chance to push these tools with the guys right there to give feedback. I've run the previous version of the Stabilizer on my little 440 and it works great. Nowhere near those sorts of speeds and feeds but let's be realistic... Awesome video editing too. Pushing me to step up my game, sir. TZ
Next time you're in Georgia you need to stop by where I work, I think you'll dig it. All we deal with is edro stainless and tool steels, all cut on Haas equipment.
Hi John, Great video. The Stabilizer 2 end mill is awesome. I always liked their cutters. Have you ever tried G.W Schultz end mills? I just started using them a few months ago and they are nice too. Steve
Somet nice to watch!!!hing about the chips flying off strikes me as really stunning - they come of and chenage to blue in mid air saying that you are dialed right in on the heat disaapation??? REally
4:25 Where does the 500 SFM come from? In high feed milling are there other charts for Surface Feet per Minute? Because in converntial machining I see 50 to 100 SFM for the Surface Feet Per Minute for 4140.
Diamond Eyes This is an older DMU. 2004 Evolution 5 axis. Thing is dead on accurate with power to spare. Will drive 3" facemills 80% width max insert depth through steel without a single complaint or hiccup. We also have 2 brand new milltap 700's which are amazing workhorses for such a tiny package.
great channel and content john!! Im a welder/fabricator so i listen to weldingtipsntricks podcast,thats where i heard about you and also from abom79 and figured is check you out.. glad i did i love these high end precision machining/machinist videos!! also like how much i learn from these (trades)videos..thank you sir!😎🤓🇺🇸
I'd like to see the same tool and job run on the Tormach for comparison. Without question the Haas is faster, but does the Tormach do the same job, just half as fast?
Can you try some aggressive cutting of D2 or maybe Titanium next time? 4140 is a good steel for many applications just not very challenging to machine.
I've used the Niagara end mill in 1/4" 4fl. Loved them, but it seemed that they went dull quick. Could had been user error. Reflecting back, I might had been doing more rubbing than cutting.
Great video! As a conventional machinist I have to ask, why so much climb milling? That may seem elementary to some, but I genuinely would like to know.
Ik this is wayy late, but the reason is that CNC machines love to climb mill. Manual machines often use leadscrews with lots of backlash which usually leads to lots of free play in the table. when you move your conventional mill, the screw pushes from behind the nut's threads, so the free play is all ahead of where the table has been moved to. when climb milling, the machine wants to pull the work in the direction of movement, and if there's play in that direction, it'll catch and bad things will ensue. Because CNC machines need to be able to maintain accuracy after lots of direction changes, they use ballscrews with very little backlash, so this problem doesn't occur for them. If the machine can do it, climb milling is usually better in terms of chip evacuation and surface finish, and requires lower forces on the axis drivetrain (as the spindle is helping the axis instead of fighting it)
This is a nice and impressive video, but 4140 is machining nice anyway.Can you make a video like this for stainless? My machinist at work has a 35 year old Deckel cnc mill. It's quite accurate, but slow. He wants something new and I want him to have something new, because I often can't wait for days when he is machining a stainless part for me. And we use lot of stainless.So I would really appreciate a authentic video about machining stainless, so we can show to the bosses how much a new machine would accelerate the work.Thank you, not just for reading this comment, thank you for everything. I follow your channel for some time now, keep the good stuff coming!
Stainless- Mazak, Okuma, Brother with Big BT30 would top choices but find other machine shops around local area see what they're using. Ask questions about service, materials, accuracy etc all before you contact salesman.
Thank you. But I didn't wanna talk anybody into buying a Haas :D I just want to talk people into buying a machine and tooling that can really go at it and getter done ;) Shops around here don't really use the mentioned brands. They have Deckel Maho, Gildemeister, Kekeisen, Makino, Dmu, Reiden, Auerbach, Hermle, Kern, Wemas, Mori Seiki and one guy has a Haas. As you might guess we are in Germany. All these people work for us and sell us parts. I don't think they will help us pick out a machine because that will mean less orders for them.
ensen89 If it's just 3 axis work. DMG Mori milltap 700. The machines have a blazing speed and up to 24k rpm spindle. And the price? You could get em for under $100k even with bells and whistles. The work area is surprisingly large too for the machines footprint If you need super high ultra tight tolerances, best to move up to a Makino. But expect to be sticker shocked. Starting is over $200k for just base models.
Why did they make a left hand endmill? That now requires changing all of your machining strategies from "climb" to "coventional" so the LH endmill is climbing!
While it was just a video editing mistake, ironically, it was probably his nice Orange vises to blame. The material was saw cut and probably not square, and the jaws didn't have enough play/clearance to allow for an irregular shape. Kurt vises have a little leeway to allow for variations in material parallelism. Probably a piece of poster board on the moving jaw would have prevented pullout.
Very nice combination of trochoidal milling yet still taking a good radial width. When programmmers make hundreds of passes taking only .005-.010" radially, I swear they are secretly working for the ballscrew companies.
I appreciate that they are commonly made that way, but the reasoning escapes me. Surely one only needs sufficient space for a chip that builds up through part of a rotation (there's always some bit of it that's not feeding in). Perhaps some milling is engaging a huge DOC in which the chip does occupy a significant volume requiring a deep gullet. Heh, my machines aren't nearly powerful enough for that. Looks like I've answered my own question.
Great video, I like that you kept the fusion footage to a minimum and just talked about it or showed it on the side. Also the blend of slow motion and sped up footage was great! I can't wait to see more videos like this one!
The fusion footage is super important for those of us who are home gamers and still learning!!!
Diesel Ramcharger Yeah, I definitely understand that there are a lot of viewers who do come here for the fusion content. I just wanted to express that I thought this video was very well edited, especially for people like me who like watching the machines make the cuts.
SHOW THE TOOL AFTER!!!! would love to see the wear and see how they held up.
That slo mo is fantastic John!!
NYC CNC lol the whole footage looks like its in slowmo.... 61 in/min? Lol even with ur step over that tool would take it at 200 in/min
Funny to see Denny in your videos. I work at Niagara/Seco and it's always great to see our products being put to the test! Good stuff!
Amazing... I had no idea that could be done on a Haas. I will definitely bring this to my supervisors' attention. We have got to get faster at job shop work - this may be the proof I need to make it happen.
It sure is AMAZING to see where you are today. I can't wait to see what you do with the Lake shore tools. Thanks
The technical content speaks for itself, and your production quality with the video is getting to the level I'd expect of at least Lakeshore, and at this rate Haas is going to get envious soon.
Always great to see the Haas doing its' magic. Keep the videos rolling.
I can watch videos like this for hours.
Looks to me I am going to pick up my tool speeds and feeds thanks for the great video looking forward to the next one.
So what was the cycle time difference between the 2 tools and their strategies?
Eatongee yes I second this question!
I third it
Eatongee
I'm gonna take a guess and say the "high speed" was actually slower in cycle time. .05 step over vs .200 step over you'd have to be going over 4X faster on the feed to make up the difference
Think it was 200ipm on the high speed? And was certainly going faster than 50ipm on the standard path.
But would probably have much longer tool life using the high speed path which could be worth the extra time it takes in tooling cost and time down to replace the endmill.
looks to me that the higher speed path also did a better finish on the walls
minimovzEt smaller step over means smaller scallops on the roughing.
The 6 flute will always leave a better finish than a 4. More flutes equals better finish
awesome slowmo , really shows off the chip evacuation
The slow motion is cool, you can almost see the tool stepping over on each cut.
Mastercam has an option to slow the first pass down by a percentage, that's saved my bacon in the past it's a nice way to make sure your fixture offset is where you want it. Working at a mold shop put me in the habit of placing the fixture offset in the middle of material more often than not which might have saved the first endmill because the excess material would have been equally spread. Great toolpaths!! Thanks!
You could say... Those slo-mos were "the money shot" Ahahahahaha! (I'll show myself out)
what a beautiful video! love the work and experimentation
That high speed footage tho! awesome! Production value is growing man nice work!
I love the slow mo, can you do more of it ? i really want to see tapping in slow mo.
i love you show your mistakes we all make them and it gives us all a chance to learn thanks
This is why if I can I always put my wcs on center Cuz then if the stock is oversized you have an equal still heavier cut on both sides but normally she will suffer though it
I also prefer WCS at center for every in-a-vice job, where I work we have a 0/+10mm(3/8in) tolerance on the saw and we program with a virtual stock of +12mm(1/2 inch)
since we run our second setups on jigs or pallet, right after facing we make the dowel holes so its easy to restart a program if it has been moved (just zero in the dowel hole and add the offset from the CAD program and the zero is back where its suposed to be.
Nice work! My first job out of high school was making end mills at Niagara Cutter. :-)
Looks like niagra is making a great tool! I buried an imco in steel like that before with my old Haas, the machine errored out before the tool broke!! I was able to get the chips dug out of the flutes and keep going! If I'm prototyping a lot of work I'll set the spindle overload down for just such instances, it my save expenses tooling.
Love your stuff, John! excellent vid!
Been a long time since I've heard them term "Cookin". I like it.
Did I miss the run times? Which one was faster?
Cool video...Love the slow mo!
Few questions..:
1) Which tool path was actually faster?
2) Could you have pushed the feed rate on the 6 flute?
3) How did the chips look, too hot, room to heat up (speed up?)
Man I need a camera that does more than 120fps.. love those slow mo shots!
The high speed chipcam is glorious.
Just what I needed to see! Great stuff. (And when did you change you logo?)
Those be some crazy numbers for 4140. The cutters have to be up there in price. But relative to over all machine time, a no brainer.
noticed you set the tool height to the center of your tool this can throw you off on any tool larger than 3/8" as the bottoms aren't exactly flat. Really gets you in trouble at 3/4"+. great video keep them coming.
I enjoyed the irony of the Meritool shirt during the Niagara tool testing.
I see Dennis! Very cool that you got a chance to push these tools with the guys right there to give feedback. I've run the previous version of the Stabilizer on my little 440 and it works great. Nowhere near those sorts of speeds and feeds but let's be realistic...
Awesome video editing too. Pushing me to step up my game, sir.
TZ
GREAT JOB!
Awesome video sir. What frame rate were you filming those slo-mo shots at?
That was great John!
Next time you're in Georgia you need to stop by where I work, I think you'll dig it. All we deal with is edro stainless and tool steels, all cut on Haas equipment.
Hi John,
Great video. The Stabilizer 2 end mill is awesome. I always liked their cutters. Have you ever tried G.W Schultz end mills? I just started using them a few months ago and they are nice too.
Steve
Your footage of the endmills was mirrored, these are RH cut endmills, but you showed LH cut.
I usually stick with odd number of flutes. 3, 5, and 7's. Find they tend to stay a bit more stable and better finish.
Occams Sawzall definitely better for slotting at a minimum.
Slow-mo looks great! Perfect chips. Surprised you don't need flood.
any plans on buying more machines?
Somet nice to watch!!!hing about the chips flying off strikes me as really stunning - they come of and chenage to blue in mid air saying that you are dialed right in on the heat disaapation??? REally
Great video but in the end I was expecting a side by side comparison. Also, what was cycle time differences?
Perfect chips!
Sweet video. Nice edit 👍
NYC CNC thanks for the video. Spindle speed and feed rate are impressive me.
looks like you've been putting your editor to work. great video john, thanks for the lesson.
4:25 Where does the 500 SFM come from? In high feed milling are there other charts for Surface Feet per Minute? Because in converntial machining I see 50 to 100 SFM for the Surface Feet Per Minute for 4140.
Tool manufacturer will give you a base line SFM for their cutters in a particular material.
@@bobsbillets8863 So your saying that there are different cutters for high feed milling? And they come with a different SFM?
Try that same recipe on the Tormach and lets see what happens!
Seth Johnson steppers will lose position and spindle will stall! lol
Seth Johnson
Can't. 40% load on the haas is about an 8ish horsepower cut. Well beyond what the tormach can push at peak.
Diamond Eyes
My DMU has 15HP over a variaxis. It wouldn't even register on the meter 😆
Hur hur, look at me, I recognize that Haas is not as rigid and powerful as a Mazak that costs many times more.
Diamond Eyes
This is an older DMU. 2004 Evolution 5 axis. Thing is dead on accurate with power to spare. Will drive 3" facemills 80% width max insert depth through steel without a single complaint or hiccup.
We also have 2 brand new milltap 700's which are amazing workhorses for such a tiny package.
great video!
Damn those new HAAS machines are pretty beast. Whats tool life like?
SO satisfying to watch! I love such machining. Too bad I cant use that strategies that much :(
How long would this endmill from Niagra last ? This style of cutting ? On that setup ? , Great video
Agreed. What is the cycle time difference?
great channel and content john!! Im a welder/fabricator so i listen to weldingtipsntricks podcast,thats where i heard about you and also from abom79 and figured is check you out.. glad i did i love these high end precision machining/machinist videos!! also like how much i learn from these (trades)videos..thank you sir!😎🤓🇺🇸
You should try a better holder. I use Albrecht they are superb
Is there any torque or current feedback/telemetry from the spindle while you cut?
how much HP is required to drive the 6 flute at those speeds?
I got a 2 flute end mill from that same company have not used it yet I hope it works it will be for aluminum cutting
Shouldn't the tool probe be able to check runout?
I can read the fusion settings! Woo
HSM done right no flood coolant! :D Super High SFM COOLS DOWN THE ENDMILL!!!!!!! :D
hi _ 10 seconds in to video why are the two cutters left hand cutting and later on the machine ?
Steve
What kind of educational background / training do your CNC operators typically have
how many frames per sec do u record the slow motion parts??
Can you estimate the horsepower on that 4 flute running .75 doc?
I'd like to see the same tool and job run on the Tormach for comparison. Without question the Haas is faster, but does the Tormach do the same job, just half as fast?
That slow mo action sexually excited me a Lil bit. Side note, will you be doing a video on how you made the clickspring fire pistons?
Makes me miss machining.
Can you try some aggressive cutting of D2 or maybe Titanium next time? 4140 is a good steel for many applications just not very challenging to machine.
I've used the Niagara end mill in 1/4" 4fl. Loved them, but it seemed that they went dull quick. Could had been user error. Reflecting back, I might had been doing more rubbing than cutting.
Great video! As a conventional machinist I have to ask, why so much climb milling? That may seem elementary to some, but I genuinely would like to know.
Ik this is wayy late, but the reason is that CNC machines love to climb mill. Manual machines often use leadscrews with lots of backlash which usually leads to lots of free play in the table. when you move your conventional mill, the screw pushes from behind the nut's threads, so the free play is all ahead of where the table has been moved to. when climb milling, the machine wants to pull the work in the direction of movement, and if there's play in that direction, it'll catch and bad things will ensue. Because CNC machines need to be able to maintain accuracy after lots of direction changes, they use ballscrews with very little backlash, so this problem doesn't occur for them. If the machine can do it, climb milling is usually better in terms of chip evacuation and surface finish, and requires lower forces on the axis drivetrain (as the spindle is helping the axis instead of fighting it)
Would be so awesome if you could go over the speeds and feeds in metric terms also. Great video though.
This is a nice and impressive video, but 4140 is machining nice anyway.Can you make a video like this for stainless? My machinist at work has a 35 year old Deckel cnc mill. It's quite accurate, but slow. He wants something new and I want him to have something new, because I often can't wait for days when he is machining a stainless part for me. And we use lot of stainless.So I would really appreciate a authentic video about machining stainless, so we can show to the bosses how much a new machine would accelerate the work.Thank you, not just for reading this comment, thank you for everything. I follow your channel for some time now, keep the good stuff coming!
Stainless- Mazak, Okuma, Brother with Big BT30 would top choices but find other machine shops around local area see what they're using. Ask questions about service, materials, accuracy etc all before you contact salesman.
Diamond Eyes where do you work?
Thank you. But I didn't wanna talk anybody into buying a Haas :D
I just want to talk people into buying a machine and tooling that can really go at it and getter done ;)
Shops around here don't really use the mentioned brands.
They have Deckel Maho, Gildemeister, Kekeisen, Makino, Dmu, Reiden, Auerbach, Hermle, Kern, Wemas, Mori Seiki and one guy has a Haas. As you might guess we are in Germany.
All these people work for us and sell us parts. I don't think they will help us pick out a machine because that will mean less orders for them.
Figure out what local guys are running before you call a salemens
ensen89
If it's just 3 axis work. DMG Mori milltap 700. The machines have a blazing speed and up to 24k rpm spindle. And the price? You could get em for under $100k even with bells and whistles.
The work area is surprisingly large too for the machines footprint
If you need super high ultra tight tolerances, best to move up to a Makino. But expect to be sticker shocked. Starting is over $200k for just base models.
awesome!
Hi NYC CNC; I can not open CAM file with MasterCAM, May you upload it with common format. Thanks.
But Fusion 360 is free...
Would you believe few years ago, that this is your video?
looks nice🙂
Why use the 6 flute if the 4 flute was faster?
Man, great video of the new Niagara cutters! If you're ever interested in a collaboration let me know.
try helical brand end mills too
the shots of the end mills from the beginning of the video look like they are left hand cutters
llljj9 I agree
Why did they make a left hand endmill? That now requires changing all of your machining strategies from "climb" to "coventional" so the LH endmill is climbing!
While it was just a video editing mistake, ironically, it was probably his nice Orange vises to blame. The material was saw cut and probably not square, and the jaws didn't have enough play/clearance to allow for an irregular shape. Kurt vises have a little leeway to allow for variations in material parallelism. Probably a piece of poster board on the moving jaw would have prevented pullout.
It would be nice if, after milling, the tool was shown close-up, so that the tooth edge could be seen.
why dont you have a hydraulic vise?
i love to see chip flying.
What hardness (RC) is your 4140?
Was that non-heat treated 4140 or was it 4140HT ~28-32 HRC?
that was definitely not hard
Nice!!!
awesome
Very nice combination of trochoidal milling yet still taking a good radial width. When programmmers make hundreds of passes taking only .005-.010" radially, I swear they are secretly working for the ballscrew companies.
I love your stuff John, but I don't get the point of this video, what is the take home?
Marketing.. To sell Niagara End Mill and other cutting tools
Judging from the chips, you were using conventional milling. Why not climb?
He was climb milling
I cut 4140 everyday with our Haas's,D2 & Cpm10-v also.they handle it all fine.
Thats MONEY !
Why do you say that fewer flutes means deeper gullet? That makes no sense to me.
I appreciate that they are commonly made that way, but the reasoning escapes me. Surely one only needs sufficient space for a chip that builds up through part of a rotation (there's always some bit of it that's not feeding in).
Perhaps some milling is engaging a huge DOC in which the chip does occupy a significant volume requiring a deep gullet. Heh, my machines aren't nearly powerful enough for that. Looks like I've answered my own question.
Those high-speeds.
Thats one damn sexy slowmo :D
Torque wrenches? I prefer the German torque spec, Gud-n-tight
U r done !!!
Ha Ha Sexy chip throwing movie mode and music! Love it!