comments section really proves that good marketing makes people believe they're a part of some larger social movement instead of just consuming a product. Framework laptops are just business-grade laptops marketed towards consumers. It's not that deep lol. You can find 4 year old Latitudes or Thinkpads laptops for under $500 that can easily can last 5+ more years and can be further handed down like Kent is saying. You want to contribute to the ecosystem and stop making waste? Don't buy the cheap laptops that break in a year. Vote with your wallet.
@@bbman10pwns there's no laptop platform other than Framework that provides a multi generation upgrade path. They ARE doing plenty that is unique. Having worked close to manufacturing before I maintain his take on the pricing of the modules is poor, they are reasonably priced for small scale production and they offer a unique function.
You are just as confused as Kent. There were always specific laptops with user module replacable laptops like you said, though Lenovo deviated far for their thinkpads. Lenovo released two T480 successors only few months back that they worked with iFixit to have similarly serviable devices. Only thing is that their flagships still has soldered on ram or ssd. BTW, that only happened because they saw steam build behind repair friendly companies and legislations. Still, it doesn't matter when comes to fixing motherboards. No major companies give you schemetics and if $1~20 SMC on your MB is toast, you are replacing the whole MB or...hope your 3rd party repairshop has a doner MB with that thing not broken and has paid sketchy Russian website and got the schematics. You don't have to "HOPE" that with Framework. If you think Framework is for woke people virtue signalling, go buy System76. They are even better without the gimmicky port and the need to sign NDA to get the schematics. It doesn't have to be Framework. BTW, "You can find 4 year old Latitudes or Thinkpads laptops for under $500 that can easily can last 5+ more years and can be further handed down" is not a good argument. What after in 10~15 years? If you try to convince me trend of unrepairable laptops would've stopped on it's own even without repair friendly companies, when the evidence(thinkpads, expansion of "care" programs among venders) suggests otherwise, you are bloody delusional. The thing is consumer electronics is the least of the worries. - software locked tractor - Polish DRM train - MRI machine that needs $2000 module replaced instead of a $50 power supply - subscription suspension and heated seat from BMW do you want me to keep going? I don't understand why people feel like this is virtue signalling when it is already engrained in their lives.
@@bbbo85 tl;dr needed although i largely agree, I'm not here to argue for or against right to repair. That's a massive discussion in a whole different field. The focus here is on laptops that are generally user serviceable, and are built to last within a reasonable lifespan (~5-10 years), and has an abundant availability of OEM and third-party parts. In short, business-grade computers. Which have always existed. It's just that consumers want cheap and then complain when they get cheap.
Startup company doing something niche and new can't compete with major layers on pricing? How surprising... Design costs, and you'll pay more towards that with a company shipping fewer units. I get the peripheral pass-throughs with laptop, so the real comparison, when my pesky USB-C starts playing up (because the design is terrible) is $9 and install it in 1 minute with Framework, or send the laptop back for an expensive repair with a couple of weeks turnaround with a competitor.
To be honest, I think this is a rather uninformed take: Framework designed these laptops around modularity and flexibility, that is why everything is plug and play. They sell their entire brand and laptops around the modularity, so you can't expect them to suddenly roll back on that. Framework has had to account for that and is therefore charging $9 instead of what would be $5, because of the added engineering, design and manufacturing costs (due to the larger product.) You can't just rip out a port from another conventional laptop, those are mainly soldered in and precisely cut to fit the chassis. For big laptop brands such as HP, they produce these in the hundreds of thousands, with a tride and true design (example: HP 15' laptops, these designs have hardly changed since 2014) they have used for a long time. The design costs of HP's design will have already been worked out, as the only changes that they have made will be based on aesthetics. Framework is using a new design in this case; something more modular and more customizable. Once the design ages and matures, all the inefficiencies and errors get worked out, the price will gradually go down. Framework will also find more or other suppliers that will come forth and produce the same parts for lower prices, creating a possibility for a lower price sometime soon. It also has to be said that Framework itself is a smaller business. They are still experiencing the typical growing pains of a business, one of them being the ridiculous profit margins. They have to choose a high profit margin over a high quantity, as they can't sell the amount of laptops required. As of right now, the average person does not want to shell out another $300+ what have you, to get features they may or may not use. If they choose neither, you won't see a business such as Framework exist unless they are funded by a third party. Most people buying Framework laptops are really just enthusiasts and fellow hobbyists, and they understand that they are paying a higher price to get more customizability. Framework doesn't have a reason + can't really charge less than what they are already charging, unless they want to sink their own boat.
It is a VERY uninformed take. Mainly because he didn't even got that the expansion card enclosures are optional and that the laptop comes with USB-C ports. For these enclosures that he cries over so much, he can of course use his beloved hub. Also, he can make his own. The designs are open source. That's why the first Ethernet cards were done by the community, before Framework made them themselves too. Also, he completely utterly fails to see the benefits of the modularity, that you can so easily repair and sell to the SH market, so other can have replacements too. Not to mention more advanced benefits like better customizability and partial upgrades. I responded to him in another comment with details why so so SO wrong. Hopefully the comment stays and maybe he even answers.
I've been looking into framework just because of the modularity. Sometimes I need a ton of ethernet ports for quick testing without carrying a switch, or a ton of usb ports. Potentially having the parts to turn the machine from a graphics powerhouse to a battery saver; would be something i'd actually do. Obviously for what they're offering the price will be higher, and for me the price would be worth it. There are no alternatives to what they're offering. All other laptops are build around a rigid set of minimal features that simply make even expensive laptops worthless to me. Him comparing the pricing to Apple doesn't make any sense either. Apple doesn't have any value proposition beyond them being apple or using strong hardware. If someone doesn't want what they are offering then they shouldn't buy it, Framework doesn't force you to buy their stuff. You have the money, you decide how you spend them what's worth what. Complaining like this is meaningless clickbait.
You, of course, realize there are four expansion ports on the laptop, and you get four adapters of your choice included in the price; you don't have to buy extra unless you want to. If the four aren't enough because, as we know, standard laptop IO often is not, though often that is due to the IO not being tailored to your needs, then you can just stick any USB-C dock with a 2"+ cable, like a standard Anker dock, into those ports and it works without those open source adapters.
@@KentsTechWorld No, your point is that those adapters are a ripoff, but you pay for them on normal laptops; they are just integrated, and you're stuck with what you get. That aside, even if they did cost "extra," it's not a ripoff just because you don't like the design. The ports not being where you like doesn't make it a ripoff if they work.
Disagree for the 13" if you max out the RAM or get decent storage, you cant compare it to anything in its class. The 16" is more on the pricey side but still great for many
I don't think anyone like dongles. but with this laptop you end up need them anyway, just like any other laptop, they just have their dongle in-between that you have to pay for.
Just by reading the title and hearing the first 3 minutes of the video, you're missing the entire point dude. Do some research and think about the target market of the product itself, I myself never dreamed of thinking about buying a laptop, but a Framework is one of my top thing to get eventually. It's not just about modularity or upgradability, it's about creating an new ecosystem that makes sense and leads to less waste. Their new (partnership) RISCV Boards are really interesting for developers wanting to contribute to the RISCV development ecosystem for example.
I don't think laptop need to be upgradeable but it is more important that it can be repaired easily. Keyboard, battery, SSD and RAM should be easy to change. Also I don't think it is bad idea to make new motherboard form factor specification where things are integrated so it can be fit to laptop or even desktop/console. PC desktop motherboards are kind of ridiculous compared consoles.
There was a post that I saw on the forums (or Reddit, don't exactly remember which) where a person was complaining that their screen stopped working. Another person chimed in and said, "here, you can have my old one that I'm not using anymore, just pay shipping and it's yours." Now, they simply could have gone the RMA route and had Framework ship them a replacement part, but that post was a pretty cool and kind of wholesome thing to see.
The main thing about the expansion cards is the engineering cost involved. The full sized sd card was a main point of contention because they couldn't find an off the shelf module that fit in their dimensions so they had to design their own. Utimately yeah, you could buy a 5 year old latitude, but reparability and upgradability is kind of a symptom rather than a goal. I feel the little touches like the captive screws and every part being documented and available for sale are worth it. My girlfriend had a gateway laptop which was just cheap rebranded chinese crap. The screen broke and I tried to find a guide to replace it but it just didn't exist. I replaced it and everything seemed to work. Then I realized I forgot to reconnect the wifi antenna and when I put it back together, it was just dead after that. With my framework I don't really fear that happening. If the screen breaks I know there's a guide out there. If the charging port dies it's 20 bucks including shipping. That's contrast to the massive undertaking it would be to try to replace a soldered one. That's all to say that I love my framework, and I'm planning on getting one for my girlfriend. If it's too expensive for you then buy a cheap business class laptop and get a framework in a few years when they're hopefully cheaper.
I don't think having options for open source hardware is the definition of a scam. You're not required to buy their dongles and can even 3D print your own.
The main reason for the moduals is port durability. If you have a passthrough, all the wear and tear will be on the passthrough module that you easily replace. You can not replace a non modular USB c port without soldering. Most people can't that do themselves and it's expensive to pay to have done. They could have made proprietary connectors and protocols for the expansion cards but they didn't. I can use the USB a expansion card to plug a USB drive into the port on my phone. Considering the cost of the ports is factored into the cost of the device this is pretty stupid to complain about.
What about Alienware? I have one before Dell boufht them. It comes with usb ports and external connections for hdmi included. Just a thought. Thanks for sharing
i dont like framework, too overpriced. i want laptop that is easy to repair but not modular, it will be way cheaper. Just use old school laptop design where almost everything can be replaced.
@@Winnetou17 It is an initial higher cost, but that is recouped over time, repairing is extremely cheap (as long as you don't buy the parts like ram from framework but the manufacturer directly) and it can be upgraded when needed.
Modularity is the easiest way to achieve repairability. There isn't really much value in differentiating the two. Also as you upgrade parts, like your display, you will have parts that you can use as a backup/spare, or a hand me down.
I tried to search for your video by the title in youtube and through google's search engine I used the title of the video except the word "massive" and nothing. I had to go back through my subscription feed just to find it!! I hate YT search it sucks so bad.
Yes you can repurpose the mainboard after upgrading. Leading to less waste overall, since you're reusing everything except the mainboard if you want to make an upgrade. I think there's already 3D designed boxes to fit the main boards.
Since they have open sourced so much of the laptop itself, the current laptop will be usable and repairable for the next 10+ years even if Framework goes bust tomorrow. Because most parts you can create them yourself.
@@Winnetou17 repairable is an odd term to use. I think easily replaceable is a more appropriate word. But yes if you are a board repairman, you are able to get schematics for the board. That makes the motherboard itself repairable. Unlike every other company that hides schematics on purpose.
@@-Retired- It's not a weird use of the term if you actually count in the context of laptops in general, specially Apple which are the worst example of it. Even if the device would be perfectly repairable by a skilled technician that you go and pay for, sometimes they can't repair it because the parts are discontinued on purpose or some other made up thing that only benefits the manufacturer's bottomline by forcing you to buy a new one.
Frameworks are repairable, you don't need to be able to repair it yourself for the product itself to be categorized as repairable. Heck a lot of the laptop parts can be repaired or replaced even if you're not specialized in repair, since they have a lot of video tutorials that teach you how to replace a worn out/broken part, and you can easily get the replacement part directly from the manufacturer.
Your take sucks. Don't like the module, don't populate it and just use the USB C socket. It's not extortionate for bespoke manufacturing in terms of margin here. This is nothing like the Apple tax.
as for now 83 likes 150 dislikes. The only things that matter views = $ (it has a good RPM) sub gained over time since release on channel 26 the video it self lots me more then I gained something like gained 10 lost about 20 So not a massive great video for subs, but over average for views ;) and views are the only thing that really matter from a $ point and reach point it also have one of the highest retention rates of my videos, and 86%+ of views comes from non subs(make sense as most of my subs only care about linux or react content)
These laptops are for those who do not want to through their laptop to trash just because they need some minor upgrade or just got bored or a new shine thing appeared. Nobody is waiting it to be cheap😅 They have there niche and clientelle. Modularity is their key point. The right to repair is the main theme.
right to repair is amazing and can be done without modularity and the price they want. We did it before and we can do it again. What they are selling is nothing more a gimmick hiding behind right to repair and a higher price tag.
@@KentsTechWorld I will happily pay that price if it means not replacing my laptop because my dog tripped on the usb-c charging cable. I have a graveyard of laptops that have died from hinge/support failure, I use my laptop a lot and move around a lot, putting stress on my hinges. I have also done 6 or so battery replacements in my life, and 3 display replacements. My current machine is an expensive MBP, and it is junk now because a single key went out on the keyboard... it is e-waste because the keyboard cannot be replaced... I will pay that premium happily. I will no longer have anxiety about breaking my machine, every part is replaceable, and at a low cost.
So let me get this straight because I just went to Framework's website to configure a replica of 2 laptops that I already have both of which have midrange Nvidia GPUs and Ryzen CPUs and cost me $2K CAD and I have a desktop tower that cost me $1.3K CAD before tax, they want me to pay over $3K+ CAD for the same amount of ports as both laptops, a dGPU and a Ryzen CPU? Need I tell people all of these laptops and desktops I own have either a Ryzen 5 or Ryzen 7 CPU (the tower itself has a Ryzen 5 7600) and a Nvidia GPU (Nvidia RTX 4060 for the tower). Also they claim that 32GB of SODIMM DDR5 RAM is over $200 CAD meanwhile PC Part Picker is telling me it's actually $110 CAD. Nice way to scream that I'm getting scammed no thanks
Comparing laptops to desktop is pretty stupid. All the laptops are more expensive than the desktops, not just Framework. 2nd, unlike literally all other manufacturers, you can buy the laptop without RAM and install your own. Mind blowing, I know. That being said, Framework 16 in particular is quite expensive. Framework 13 is much more competitive in cost. But it's not for needless reasons. The Framework laptop is basically guaranteed to be able to be used for 10 years (except catastrophic events) and be the easiest and cheapst to repair. So you might recoup the costs from these. It's true that you might get lucky and get a laptop from another manufacturer and that to also work 10 years with no problems or with easy-and-cheap to repair problems. But you never know when you buy a new laptop. All manufacturing companies (no exception) had duds.
My recommendation is to just buy the basic laptop kit without ram, SSD or other parts from framework, then buy those parts from the manufacturer. It takes less than 20 min to put it together and you save hundreds of dollars. It is still going to be a bit more expensive than other laptops, simply because Framework is a rather small company and therefore has higher production costs compared to the other producers, but that can easily be recouped over time as the laptop is cheap and easy to fix and upgrade.
yea you are wrong. this is the right way to go. framework might not be perfect but it is much better than the way than continuing down planned obsolescence. your views are simplistic capitalism and that is what is killing us.
I like framework but you are right. Im personally a big fan of Lenovo Yogas. People talk shit about those too but I have 3 of them in my household. My last one was yoga 900 from 2016 and I sold it last year. The only issue I ever had was the ssd died after I installed multiple Linux distros on it lol. I upgraded it from 256 gb to 500gb and then even sold it for $400. I now have a yoga 9i with an Intel Core Ultra 7 155h. It's very nice.
sure. I will forget the 20 + years I been repairing computers and laptops for myself and others :D you do know even massive TH-camrs are moaning over the price??
@@KentsTechWorld If that's the case, you could spend more than 3 minutes of research before you make a video like this in which everything EVERYTHING is wrong: - they paywall the connectivity - wrong, the laptop itself comes with 4 USB-C ports (6 for the Framework 16) and 1 audio jack (0 for the Framework 16) in which those enclosures connect. So you can use them directly or put your nice beloved $17 hub that you like - they paywall the connectivity - wrong extra, because those enclosures are open sourced - you can make your own. The first Ethernet port enclosures were made by the community, before Framework themselves made and sold them. Same with SD card. Also these enclosures, since they connect to USB-C, you can use them on any laptop or device with USB-C Now, for the rest, I also have to question your "20+ years of repairing computers" since you fail to grasp how amazing this is. That is, you somehow manage to understand it completely upside down. "Baffling" is too weak of a word to explain ... anyway, here they are: - first thing, you say the very unrealistic thing that you might need a new expansion card with a new protocol, and that you'd need a new motherboard for that. I say that's unrealistic because unless you need more bandwidth than the USB-C provides, the protocol will be handled by the enclosure itself. Anyway, the wrong thing here is that you say that the mobo is too expensive at $400-$500, that you can get an entire SH laptop for that. And that for a new protocol you'd have to wait 2-3 years for that. IF YOU WAIT 2-3 YEARS TO GET A SECOND HAND LAPTOP, WHY DO YOU COMPARE IT TO A NEW MOTHERBOARD ? You would get a SH motherboard too in that case, and guess what ? IT WILL BE HALF THE PRICE. I'm sure your mind is blown away now - I would have given you free pass on this one, since many get this wrong, buy since you touted 20 years of BS, here it goes: it's not the upgradeability that's the most important thing of this laptop. It's the repairability. Except really catastriphic events, you're basically guaranteed that you (or anyone else, if you sell it) can use this laptop for 10 years, including if Framework the company goes bust tomorrow. Why ? Because you can replace everything, so you can get everything from another laptop. Also, most of the things you can create yourself. Like the chassis of the laptop or the expansion card enclosures mentioned earlier, you have the design files available from Framework, so you can print them yourself (not to mention make new designs). Things like a full motherboard you can't, since there's licences outside Framework control, but you still have more documentation on the pins and connectors, and repair shops can get access to full schematics, under NDA. - with the above and with the modularity of the laptop, that means it's the cheapest and easier to repair. So there's a good chance of recouping the extra initial cost of the laptop like that. And also it makes it more resellable, since even if something is completely broken and you want to buy a new laptop, all the functioning components from the old one can be sold and used on the SH market. Also, since it's so customizable, this again increases the resell potential. Somebody might only want a motherboard, but not the screen that you have - on the upgrade side, because it's modular, it's nice that you can upgrade it in steps, when you need it, when you want it, when you have the money for it. - also, when you upgrade, you can keep what you like. Maybe you nailed the perfect keyboard. Now you don't have to check for how the keyboard on the new laptop are. Or be very sad that you have to compromise between best keyboard or best everything else. That is, this modularity unlocks more configurations and customization that aren't possible right now. Well, technically they are, but it's much much more difficult and usually much more expensive also. You might want to have a very premium high-end laptop, but you want the lowest resolution lowest refresh rate screen, since your use case doesn't need anything better. Why ? Not just because it's cheaper, but because the screen will consume less. There are other examples - on the "what do you do with the old components when you upgrade" you basically answered your own question - either you a) sell it for the SH market or b) grab a case just like the $30 one that you visited in the video and turn the old motherboard into a home server. - no matter if you upgrade every 2 years or 10 years, having this ecosystem of very easy to reuse and repurpose the laptop components means less waste, less need for new components. Some care about that. And if governments start adding policies on sustainability, Framework will be compliant out of the box. In closing, it's true that you CAN be lucky and have your laptop also work without issues for 10 years. Or have it easy and cheap to repair. But on average that's not the case. And when you buy a new laptop, you don't really know how well it's going to last. Every single manufacturer had duds.
@@KentsTechWorld I did a pretty lengthy reply which is for some reason not being shown normally. Thought initially that it was deleted, but I remembered that if you sort the comments (at the top of the comments there's a "Sort By" option) by "Newest first" you can see extra comments and lo-and-behold, here there were my initial comment and my repost (that I deleted, since it was useless). Sooo, if you would like to do that, I'll appreciate it. I know the tone is not friendly, but I'm sure you can see the arguments I made.
That is a loooot of talking about how easy it would be to get a comparable laptop, without using any of the 15 minutes on showing whether that is true or not. You might be able to find a good used laptop for that money. You are all talk no game in this video. 'cause yeah you did provide an example with the dongles vs integrated adapters and was hit real hard with reality immediately and had to admit that dongles will flop around and not be as nice to use. Props though for admitting that straight away. I just think it would be same story when finding a used PC. It won't be truly comparable, the one you find. These are good laptops that are repairable and modular for the everyday person. That's a justified purchase for many people.
Edit: I was informed in the comments that I was lacking accurate info about ramework. Please read comments to this post. The rest of this comment is not true: If framework was actually serious about shifting the norm in laptops, they should do what their name suggest: provide an open framework standard. Not provide a proprietary system.
Nothing is proprietary. They're the only company which offers the schematics (edit: not fully complete, since there's things outside Framework control, but you do have the pinouts. Repair shops can get the full schematics with an NDA) and designs for the motherboard and the chassis. People made their own enclosures (the things that Kent rants that are overpriced). The first Ethernet ports were made by the community. Wow, the amount of damage that Kent does with his misinformation, now people beleive his BS too, jeez Louise
@@Winnetou17and the RISC-V motherboard (now being sold on their web store) wasn't made by them either. a company approached framework and said "can we have the motherboard design specs", then after a while, they sent framework a prototype motherboard design
They do, they offer shematics of everything they legaly can, they encourage the community to make their own parts, they are active in the community and implement feedback. So far they are a great company in terms of community interaction and letting you own the product you bought (in contrary to other manufacturers that tell you that they still own the product). The only place it can be critiqued is price, but that is understandable as we are talking about a rather small company that has a much higher costs to revenue % compared to other manufactuerers.
People don’t upgrade cpus on laptops, because it isn’t possible they were not given the option. You are basically saying my grandma used typewriters why would you use a laptop. That’s why we have innovations to change what people do for the better. Pretty close minded person P.S people do upgrade cpu on older laptop where possible like in thinkpads
the PS part is a big no. some do most don't I happen to have been around when you could upgrade CPU's in laptops and helped people do it. and even back then, most did not upgrade sadly
They are absolutely overpriced. I would only pay that much for a chassis similar to older thinkpads before xx30 models, great keyboard and speakers and a trackpoint. A hot swappable battery would be good too but not a necessity for me. I don't understand the connectivity argument because I'm pretty sure you can use a different USB C dongle from another company. They are not proprietary. Also they've encouraged third parties to make those hot swappable ports. Personally I find the hot swappable ports a gimmick. I think having hot swappable ram, storage, battery makes sense. I'd rather have modular (daughterboard) but not hot swappable ports, this would make them cheaper, easier to have more ports and would be better for the environment (if you're a virtuous narcissist who wants to save the environment, pardon my rant but you arent). Everything being said, I want framework to exist and succeed. And they will because the entire industry has gone down the drain.And if cheaper/used Thinkpads didn't exist I would probably consider them. But the entire market is so bad on both price and durability, that I simply find myself buying the bare minimum (used) and not giving any company my own money.
"Then maybe if really needed and you are a wizard you can take the guts out and put new in, most won't do that tho." You sure about that? For someone who can't afford to replace the laptop every year, this isn't a ripoff. You don't even need to upgrade the mobo every time.
the statistics say I am right that most buy, use and buy new. most people have never upgrade in the last 20 years. if a few do, don't mean most. and I am looking at things from how the majority of people are using their tech, as that is how you get the best picture of what is going on. and I been seeing that trend ever since the late 90's from helping people "upgrade" or fix their computer or laptops
I think my boss would be mad if i never left my desk :D This is the best "Let's me tell the world i am a clueless fish, without telling you" moment lmao
Totally disagree, mostly ranting about a slightly expensive port, it's a fully customizable and repairable laptop, also comparing a motherboard that is NEW to a second hand laptop is silly, plus they don't have the production scale to bring cheap prices yet
True that, you fix computers right? I've fixed some, and many need reballing gpu or cpu, the cost and risk is not worth it 90% of the time, and the rest of the laptop becomes spares... Unlike fixing and upgrading at the same time, rescueing a nice chassis, screen, etc. Don't you think there's an upside? Motherboards are barely more expensive than the cpu, and the 16" has removable gpu, kinda cool don't you think?
I think they were intended for schools or Government use. I can see the selling points, spend the first year and then half as much the years after and so on....
This is the most backwards take I've ever seen. I don't care for framework laptops but even I know how do those things work and why are the made like that. I suggest you do some more research before you post a video complaining about something to the internet, anyways I hope you good luck with the channel and I'm subscribing to encourage you on doing better
I really lose trust in your judgement… who cares about 100 additional dollars to get an incredible product. I have the framework 16 and I prefer it now to my Mac.
in that case, then don't complain about laptop prices and blah the MS license. don't blame Apple as they provide way better hardware for the price that any other. If you don't complain about those things to start with, then you right "who cares". But the people that defend this for the most part do complain over those things, like Apple is super expensive cos I also need a $20 dongle etc. Those are who the video is for.
@@KentsTechWorld Would it then not make sense to attack that view instead of demonizing my beloved laptop? That seems unfair to me and reputation ruining for no reason…
I remember John Blow having huge issues with framework laptops. I just bought a mac, they are overpriced but they work and I ssh into unix terminals a lot so its the best of both worlds
Agree. The concept sounds great until you realize that upgrading one component requires upgrading every other component that it interfaces with. Even if they can make newer components backward compatible with older ones, you're not going to be able to extract the most performance out of the new component when it's saddled with, say slower RAM or an older motherboard with out of date specs. Ideally all components should be upgraded at once. If you're going to do that then just replace the whole laptop.
The motherboard and ram is not modular. The whole motherboard is upgraded at once. If you want a new cpu, you replace the entire motherboard. If you want the latest and fastest ram type you change the motherboard. What is modular is the chassis,the display, the battery, the keyboard, etc... The ports are not just modular but hot swappable. The main goal of the company is to make laptops that are not disposable. So users who don't really need the latest and fastest cpu can keep on using their old cpu without having a laptop that completely fails in 5 years due to glued in batteries and screens, hammered in keyboards, soldered ram and storage, etc. Edit:Ram socket is not modular. Ram itself is SODIMM,not soldered to the motherboard and can be replaced if broken or to increase capacity. The RAM socket is soldered.
full modularity is a lame design. not everyone needs ethernet, sd card reader, audio jack or hdmi/dp, but everyone or almost everyone needs usbs and the more the better. so instead of making 4 bigger and more expensive removable modules they should make 2 removable modules for those more niche and personal types of connections and 3-4 stationary usb a-s and c-s for literally everyone.
Except that this laptop providees 4 USB-C and with those expansion enclosures that Kent cries over so much, you can get exactly what you need. Full modularity for the win!
Let me tech you about words like you a 5 year old lmao Scam = setting or promising one thing and delivering something else or nothing(doing it knowingly). Ripoff = something that is to expansive for what it is, or over promise. (and i said the same about mac's). I also either buy used mac's or the lower end where they are not so much a ripoff. But thanks for showing the world how clueless you are ;) keep being you we need the laughs
I never said I hated linux. I just don't think it's the best desktop OS. and I use it all the time, and been for close to 30 years. What a lot of you all don't get is that, the reason I am critical about linux is that I know it can do better and I want it to do better. but that fact flys over everyone head ;)
@@mrtransistor6173 I replied directly to Kent in another comment, and I'm going to paste it here, to make it easier (I'm too lazy to change the whom to this is address, so when you see "you" it's directed at Kent) If that's the case, you could spend more than 3 minutes of research before you make a video like this in which everything EVERYTHING is wrong: - they paywall the connectivity - wrong, the laptop itself comes with 4 USB-C ports (6 for the Framework 16) and 1 audio jack (0 for the Framework 16) in which those enclosures connect. So you can use them directly or put your nice beloved $17 hub that you like - they paywall the connectivity - wrong extra, because those enclosures are open sourced - you can make your own. The first Ethernet port enclosures were made by the community, before Framework themselves made and sold them. Same with SD card. Also these enclosures, since they connect to USB-C, you can use them on any laptop or device with USB-C Now, for the rest, I also have to question your "20+ years of repairing computers" since you fail to grasp how amazing this is. That is, you somehow manage to understand it completely upside down. "Baffling" is too weak of a word to explain ... anyway, here they are: - first thing, you say the very unrealistic thing that you might need a new expansion card with a new protocol, and that you'd need a new motherboard for that. I say that's unrealistic because unless you need more bandwidth than the USB-C provides, the protocol will be handled by the enclosure itself. Anyway, the wrong thing here is that you say that the mobo is too expensive at $400-$500, that you can get an entire SH laptop for that. And that for a new protocol you'd have to wait 2-3 years for that. IF YOU WAIT 2-3 YEARS TO GET A SECOND HAND LAPTOP, WHY DO YOU COMPARE IT TO A NEW MOTHERBOARD ? You would get a SH motherboard too in that case, and guess what ? IT WILL BE HALF THE PRICE. I'm sure your mind is blown away now - I would have given you free pass on this one, since many get this wrong, buy since you touted 20 years of BS, here it goes: it's not the upgradeability that's the most important thing of this laptop. It's the repairability. Except really catastriphic events, you're basically guaranteed that you (or anyone else, if you sell it) can use this laptop for 10 years, including if Framework the company goes bust tomorrow. Why ? Because you can replace everything, so you can get everything from another laptop. Also, most of the things you can create yourself. Like the chassis of the laptop or the expansion card enclosures mentioned earlier, you have the design files available from Framework, so you can print them yourself (not to mention make new designs). Things like a full motherboard you can't, since there's licences outside Framework control, but you still have more documentation on the pins and connectors, and repair shops can get access to full schematics, under NDA. - with the above and with the modularity of the laptop, that means it's the cheapest and easier to repair. So there's a good chance of recouping the extra initial cost of the laptop like that. And also it makes it more resellable, since even if something is completely broken and you want to buy a new laptop, all the functioning components from the old one can be sold and used on the SH market. Also, since it's so customizable, this again increases the resell potential. Somebody might only want a motherboard, but not the screen that you have - on the upgrade side, because it's modular, it's nice that you can upgrade it in steps, when you need it, when you want it, when you have the money for it. - also, when you upgrade, you can keep what you like. Maybe you nailed the perfect keyboard. Now you don't have to check for how the keyboard on the new laptop are. Or be very sad that you have to compromise between best keyboard or best everything else. That is, this modularity unlocks more configurations and customization that aren't possible right now. Well, technically they are, but it's much much more difficult and usually much more expensive also. You might want to have a very premium high-end laptop, but you want the lowest resolution lowest refresh rate screen, since your use case doesn't need anything better. Why ? Not just because it's cheaper, but because the screen will consume less. There are other examples - on the "what do you do with the old components when you upgrade" you basically answered your own question - either you a) sell it for the SH market or b) grab a case just like the $30 one that you visited in the video and turn the old motherboard into a home server. - no matter if you upgrade every 2 years or 10 years, having this ecosystem of very easy to reuse and repurpose the laptop components means less waste, less need for new components. Some care about that. And if governments start adding policies on sustainability, Framework will be compliant out of the box. In closing, it's true that you CAN be lucky and have your laptop also work without issues for 10 years. Or have it easy and cheap to repair. But on average that's not the case. And when you buy a new laptop, you don't really know how well it's going to last. Every single manufacturer had duds.
@@mrtransistor6173 you get 4 of the passtrougs when you order the laptop, so you don't have a gaping hole in it if you don't spend extra. The reason you can buy exra ports is so that if one breaks you can replace it for 10 bucks instead of having to deal with a defect motherboard port. It also offers the possibility to swap ports if you need different ones. Framework publishes all the scematics they legaly can and encourages people to make their own parts and to create a company to directly compete with them on part production. Also the only part that you have to buy from framework is the motherboard, all others can be bought directly from the manufacturer for the same price it would cost you to upgrade a tower PC.
This video betrays your lack of understanding of the prices we are dealing with. There is a much better video made by a more informed person on the price of upgrade. I suggest you delete this and try again next time
No, he is not. He would be right if there werent already 4 ports of your choosing included in the laptop purchase, so connectivity isn't behind a paywall and even then he would only be right if we asume that everyone only needs the cheapest laptop for office work and nothing more. The higher end the laptop the smaller the price difference between the framework. Also comparing the prices of a used laptop to buying a new framework (instead of the used one that also was 500 dollars that he was lucking on) is quite a stupid way to compare it. Also he forgets that most reasons for laptop replacements can easily be firxed with the framework for a fraction of the cost. Broken display? You can get a new one for 100 dollars and replace it yourself in 3 min, no prior experience needed. Broken SSD, same thing. Battery gets bad, get a new one and replace it. Need more ram, no problem. You have a massive dent in the chasis, you can even easily and cheaply replace that. All parts and scematics are available.
comments section really proves that good marketing makes people believe they're a part of some larger social movement instead of just consuming a product.
Framework laptops are just business-grade laptops marketed towards consumers. It's not that deep lol. You can find 4 year old Latitudes or Thinkpads laptops for under $500 that can easily can last 5+ more years and can be further handed down like Kent is saying.
You want to contribute to the ecosystem and stop making waste? Don't buy the cheap laptops that break in a year. Vote with your wallet.
@@bbman10pwns there's no laptop platform other than Framework that provides a multi generation upgrade path. They ARE doing plenty that is unique. Having worked close to manufacturing before I maintain his take on the pricing of the modules is poor, they are reasonably priced for small scale production and they offer a unique function.
"Vote with your wallet." Isn't that what they are doing?
You are just as confused as Kent.
There were always specific laptops with user module replacable laptops like you said, though Lenovo deviated far for their thinkpads.
Lenovo released two T480 successors only few months back that they worked with iFixit to have similarly serviable devices. Only thing is that their flagships still has soldered on ram or ssd. BTW, that only happened because they saw steam build behind repair friendly companies and legislations.
Still, it doesn't matter when comes to fixing motherboards. No major companies give you schemetics and if $1~20 SMC on your MB is toast, you are replacing the whole MB or...hope your 3rd party repairshop has a doner MB with that thing not broken and has paid sketchy Russian website and got the schematics.
You don't have to "HOPE" that with Framework.
If you think Framework is for woke people virtue signalling, go buy System76. They are even better without the gimmicky port and the need to sign NDA to get the schematics. It doesn't have to be Framework.
BTW, "You can find 4 year old Latitudes or Thinkpads laptops for under $500 that can easily can last 5+ more years and can be further handed down" is not a good argument. What after in 10~15 years? If you try to convince me trend of unrepairable laptops would've stopped on it's own even without repair friendly companies, when the evidence(thinkpads, expansion of "care" programs among venders) suggests otherwise, you are bloody delusional.
The thing is consumer electronics is the least of the worries.
- software locked tractor
- Polish DRM train
- MRI machine that needs $2000 module replaced instead of a $50 power supply
- subscription suspension and heated seat from BMW
do you want me to keep going?
I don't understand why people feel like this is virtue signalling when it is already engrained in their lives.
@@arcotramathorn8991 yes, which is great. But that was always an option.
@@bbbo85 tl;dr needed
although i largely agree, I'm not here to argue for or against right to repair. That's a massive discussion in a whole different field.
The focus here is on laptops that are generally user serviceable, and are built to last within a reasonable lifespan (~5-10 years), and has an abundant availability of OEM and third-party parts.
In short, business-grade computers. Which have always existed. It's just that consumers want cheap and then complain when they get cheap.
Startup company doing something niche and new can't compete with major layers on pricing? How surprising...
Design costs, and you'll pay more towards that with a company shipping fewer units.
I get the peripheral pass-throughs with laptop, so the real comparison, when my pesky USB-C starts playing up (because the design is terrible) is $9 and install it in 1 minute with Framework, or send the laptop back for an expensive repair with a couple of weeks turnaround with a competitor.
To be honest, I think this is a rather uninformed take:
Framework designed these laptops around modularity and flexibility, that is why everything is plug and play. They sell their entire brand and laptops around the modularity, so you can't expect them to suddenly roll back on that.
Framework has had to account for that and is therefore charging $9 instead of what would be $5, because of the added engineering, design and manufacturing costs (due to the larger product.)
You can't just rip out a port from another conventional laptop, those are mainly soldered in and precisely cut to fit the chassis. For big laptop brands such as HP, they produce these in the hundreds of thousands, with a tride and true design (example: HP 15' laptops, these designs have hardly changed since 2014) they have used for a long time.
The design costs of HP's design will have already been worked out, as the only changes that they have made will be based on aesthetics.
Framework is using a new design in this case; something more modular and more customizable.
Once the design ages and matures, all the inefficiencies and errors get worked out, the price will gradually go down.
Framework will also find more or other suppliers that will come forth and produce the same parts for lower prices, creating a possibility for a lower price sometime soon.
It also has to be said that Framework itself is a smaller business. They are still experiencing the typical growing pains of a business, one of them being the ridiculous profit margins.
They have to choose a high profit margin over a high quantity, as they can't sell the amount of laptops required. As of right now, the average person does not want to shell out another $300+ what have you, to get features they may or may not use. If they choose neither, you won't see a business such as Framework exist unless they are funded by a third party.
Most people buying Framework laptops are really just enthusiasts and fellow hobbyists, and they understand that they are paying a higher price to get more customizability.
Framework doesn't have a reason + can't really charge less than what they are already charging, unless they want to sink their own boat.
It is a VERY uninformed take. Mainly because he didn't even got that the expansion card enclosures are optional and that the laptop comes with USB-C ports.
For these enclosures that he cries over so much, he can of course use his beloved hub. Also, he can make his own. The designs are open source. That's why the first Ethernet cards were done by the community, before Framework made them themselves too.
Also, he completely utterly fails to see the benefits of the modularity, that you can so easily repair and sell to the SH market, so other can have replacements too. Not to mention more advanced benefits like better customizability and partial upgrades.
I responded to him in another comment with details why so so SO wrong. Hopefully the comment stays and maybe he even answers.
@@Winnetou17 no more mashed HDMI and USB C ports needing a high skilled component repair when the module is user swappable externally.
I've been looking into framework just because of the modularity. Sometimes I need a ton of ethernet ports for quick testing without carrying a switch, or a ton of usb ports. Potentially having the parts to turn the machine from a graphics powerhouse to a battery saver; would be something i'd actually do. Obviously for what they're offering the price will be higher, and for me the price would be worth it.
There are no alternatives to what they're offering. All other laptops are build around a rigid set of minimal features that simply make even expensive laptops worthless to me. Him comparing the pricing to Apple doesn't make any sense either. Apple doesn't have any value proposition beyond them being apple or using strong hardware. If someone doesn't want what they are offering then they shouldn't buy it, Framework doesn't force you to buy their stuff. You have the money, you decide how you spend them what's worth what. Complaining like this is meaningless clickbait.
OH MY GOD! THINGS COST MONEY! WHAT A RIPOFF!
Yeah and its called ripoff. What you problem?
remember to not bitch at Apple for costing money, or the license for windows to cost money. They are not over priced, they just cos money ;)
You, of course, realize there are four expansion ports on the laptop, and you get four adapters of your choice included in the price; you don't have to buy extra unless you want to. If the four aren't enough because, as we know, standard laptop IO often is not, though often that is due to the IO not being tailored to your needs, then you can just stick any USB-C dock with a 2"+ cable, like a standard Anker dock, into those ports and it works without those open source adapters.
so you proving my point
@@KentsTechWorld No, your point is that those adapters are a ripoff, but you pay for them on normal laptops; they are just integrated, and you're stuck with what you get. That aside, even if they did cost
"extra," it's not a ripoff just because you don't like the design. The ports not being where you like doesn't make it a ripoff if they work.
Exactly!!
Disagree for the 13" if you max out the RAM or get decent storage, you cant compare it to anything in its class. The 16" is more on the pricey side but still great for many
People are sick of hanging dongles at my work so the expansion ports that are expensive platform specific modules are actually preferred
Dongle is a slur at my work
I don't think anyone like dongles. but with this laptop you end up need them anyway, just like any other laptop, they just have their dongle in-between that you have to pay for.
@@KentsTechWorld there is no escaping the dongle is only we had proper docks.
is = if
@@Iswimandrun docks are getting better, but they are so over priced
Just by reading the title and hearing the first 3 minutes of the video, you're missing the entire point dude.
Do some research and think about the target market of the product itself, I myself never dreamed of thinking about buying a laptop, but a Framework is one of my top thing to get eventually.
It's not just about modularity or upgradability, it's about creating an new ecosystem that makes sense and leads to less waste. Their new (partnership) RISCV Boards are really interesting for developers wanting to contribute to the RISCV development ecosystem for example.
watch the whole video ;)
A ripoff is being forced to buy a new laptop because your USB port is busted.
I don't think laptop need to be upgradeable but it is more important that it can be repaired easily. Keyboard, battery, SSD and RAM should be easy to change.
Also I don't think it is bad idea to make new motherboard form factor specification where things are integrated so it can be fit to laptop or even desktop/console. PC desktop motherboards are kind of ridiculous compared consoles.
agree
There was a post that I saw on the forums (or Reddit, don't exactly remember which) where a person was complaining that their screen stopped working. Another person chimed in and said, "here, you can have my old one that I'm not using anymore, just pay shipping and it's yours." Now, they simply could have gone the RMA route and had Framework ship them a replacement part, but that post was a pretty cool and kind of wholesome thing to see.
The main thing about the expansion cards is the engineering cost involved. The full sized sd card was a main point of contention because they couldn't find an off the shelf module that fit in their dimensions so they had to design their own. Utimately yeah, you could buy a 5 year old latitude, but reparability and upgradability is kind of a symptom rather than a goal. I feel the little touches like the captive screws and every part being documented and available for sale are worth it. My girlfriend had a gateway laptop which was just cheap rebranded chinese crap. The screen broke and I tried to find a guide to replace it but it just didn't exist. I replaced it and everything seemed to work. Then I realized I forgot to reconnect the wifi antenna and when I put it back together, it was just dead after that. With my framework I don't really fear that happening. If the screen breaks I know there's a guide out there. If the charging port dies it's 20 bucks including shipping. That's contrast to the massive undertaking it would be to try to replace a soldered one. That's all to say that I love my framework, and I'm planning on getting one for my girlfriend. If it's too expensive for you then buy a cheap business class laptop and get a framework in a few years when they're hopefully cheaper.
I don't think having options for open source hardware is the definition of a scam. You're not required to buy their dongles and can even 3D print your own.
ripoff don't mean scam ;) and i would agree it's not
You can plug it in directly with normal dongle, but it won't be flushed with the laptop frame. You don't need to use this expansion at all.
Framework encourage people to buy their only Dougal or print them out. They give out the schematic and 3d model freely.
The main reason for the moduals is port durability. If you have a passthrough, all the wear and tear will be on the passthrough module that you easily replace. You can not replace a non modular USB c port without soldering. Most people can't that do themselves and it's expensive to pay to have done. They could have made proprietary connectors and protocols for the expansion cards but they didn't. I can use the USB a expansion card to plug a USB drive into the port on my phone. Considering the cost of the ports is factored into the cost of the device this is pretty stupid to complain about.
What about Alienware? I have one before Dell boufht them. It comes with usb ports and external connections for hdmi included. Just a thought. Thanks for sharing
i dont like framework, too overpriced. i want laptop that is easy to repair but not modular, it will be way cheaper.
Just use old school laptop design where almost everything can be replaced.
I'm sure it's not overpriced on the SH market.
@@Winnetou17 It is an initial higher cost, but that is recouped over time, repairing is extremely cheap (as long as you don't buy the parts like ram from framework but the manufacturer directly) and it can be upgraded when needed.
Modularity is the easiest way to achieve repairability. There isn't really much value in differentiating the two. Also as you upgrade parts, like your display, you will have parts that you can use as a backup/spare, or a hand me down.
I kinda wrote this review off when he considered a 'generic' keyboard as a negative. My guy must want triangular keys or something.
I tried to search for your video by the title in youtube and through google's search engine I used the title of the video except the word "massive" and nothing. I had to go back through my subscription feed just to find it!! I hate YT search it sucks so bad.
Im for framewrork but im still gonna wait see if fhey are here in the next 5 years. I can see many uses for the main board parts by themselves.
Yes you can repurpose the mainboard after upgrading. Leading to less waste overall, since you're reusing everything except the mainboard if you want to make an upgrade.
I think there's already 3D designed boxes to fit the main boards.
Since they have open sourced so much of the laptop itself, the current laptop will be usable and repairable for the next 10+ years even if Framework goes bust tomorrow. Because most parts you can create them yourself.
@@Winnetou17 repairable is an odd term to use. I think easily replaceable is a more appropriate word.
But yes if you are a board repairman, you are able to get schematics for the board. That makes the motherboard itself repairable. Unlike every other company that hides schematics on purpose.
@@-Retired- It's not a weird use of the term if you actually count in the context of laptops in general, specially Apple which are the worst example of it.
Even if the device would be perfectly repairable by a skilled technician that you go and pay for, sometimes they can't repair it because the parts are discontinued on purpose or some other made up thing that only benefits the manufacturer's bottomline by forcing you to buy a new one.
Frameworks are repairable, you don't need to be able to repair it yourself for the product itself to be categorized as repairable.
Heck a lot of the laptop parts can be repaired or replaced even if you're not specialized in repair, since they have a lot of video tutorials that teach you how to replace a worn out/broken part, and you can easily get the replacement part directly from the manufacturer.
Your take sucks. Don't like the module, don't populate it and just use the USB C socket. It's not extortionate for bespoke manufacturing in terms of margin here. This is nothing like the Apple tax.
😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂
I’m actually curious on the like and dislike on this TH-cam video 🧐
as for now
83 likes
150 dislikes.
The only things that matter
views = $ (it has a good RPM)
sub gained over time since release on channel 26
the video it self lots me more then I gained something like gained 10 lost about 20
So not a massive great video for subs, but over average for views ;)
and views are the only thing that really matter from a $ point and reach point
it also have one of the highest retention rates of my videos, and 86%+ of views comes from non subs(make sense as most of my subs only care about linux or react content)
These laptops are for those who do not want to through their laptop to trash just because they need some minor upgrade or just got bored or a new shine thing appeared. Nobody is waiting it to be cheap😅 They have there niche and clientelle. Modularity is their key point. The right to repair is the main theme.
right to repair is amazing and can be done without modularity and the price they want. We did it before and we can do it again. What they are selling is nothing more a gimmick hiding behind right to repair and a higher price tag.
@@KentsTechWorld I will happily pay that price if it means not replacing my laptop because my dog tripped on the usb-c charging cable. I have a graveyard of laptops that have died from hinge/support failure, I use my laptop a lot and move around a lot, putting stress on my hinges. I have also done 6 or so battery replacements in my life, and 3 display replacements. My current machine is an expensive MBP, and it is junk now because a single key went out on the keyboard... it is e-waste because the keyboard cannot be replaced...
I will pay that premium happily. I will no longer have anxiety about breaking my machine, every part is replaceable, and at a low cost.
So let me get this straight because I just went to Framework's website to configure a replica of 2 laptops that I already have both of which have midrange Nvidia GPUs and Ryzen CPUs and cost me $2K CAD and I have a desktop tower that cost me $1.3K CAD before tax, they want me to pay over $3K+ CAD for the same amount of ports as both laptops, a dGPU and a Ryzen CPU? Need I tell people all of these laptops and desktops I own have either a Ryzen 5 or Ryzen 7 CPU (the tower itself has a Ryzen 5 7600) and a Nvidia GPU (Nvidia RTX 4060 for the tower). Also they claim that 32GB of SODIMM DDR5 RAM is over $200 CAD meanwhile PC Part Picker is telling me it's actually $110 CAD. Nice way to scream that I'm getting scammed no thanks
Comparing laptops to desktop is pretty stupid. All the laptops are more expensive than the desktops, not just Framework.
2nd, unlike literally all other manufacturers, you can buy the laptop without RAM and install your own. Mind blowing, I know.
That being said, Framework 16 in particular is quite expensive. Framework 13 is much more competitive in cost. But it's not for needless reasons. The Framework laptop is basically guaranteed to be able to be used for 10 years (except catastrophic events) and be the easiest and cheapst to repair. So you might recoup the costs from these. It's true that you might get lucky and get a laptop from another manufacturer and that to also work 10 years with no problems or with easy-and-cheap to repair problems. But you never know when you buy a new laptop. All manufacturing companies (no exception) had duds.
My recommendation is to just buy the basic laptop kit without ram, SSD or other parts from framework, then buy those parts from the manufacturer. It takes less than 20 min to put it together and you save hundreds of dollars. It is still going to be a bit more expensive than other laptops, simply because Framework is a rather small company and therefore has higher production costs compared to the other producers, but that can easily be recouped over time as the laptop is cheap and easy to fix and upgrade.
yea you are wrong. this is the right way to go. framework might not be perfect but it is much better than the way than continuing down planned obsolescence. your views are simplistic capitalism and that is what is killing us.
You live in a capitalist system so you better get used to it. In fact if its so bad why haven't you moved to Venezuela yet?
I like framework but you are right. Im personally a big fan of Lenovo Yogas. People talk shit about those too but I have 3 of them in my household. My last one was yoga 900 from 2016 and I sold it last year. The only issue I ever had was the ssd died after I installed multiple Linux distros on it lol. I upgraded it from 256 gb to 500gb and then even sold it for $400. I now have a yoga 9i with an Intel Core Ultra 7 155h. It's very nice.
The framework laptop clearly isn't meant for you and the concept behind it is obviously lost on you
sure. I will forget the 20 + years I been repairing computers and laptops for myself and others :D you do know even massive TH-camrs are moaning over the price??
@@KentsTechWorld Moan all you want but this is the future, at least for enthusiasts. You're just missing the big picture.
@@KentsTechWorld If that's the case, you could spend more than 3 minutes of research before you make a video like this in which everything EVERYTHING is wrong:
- they paywall the connectivity - wrong, the laptop itself comes with 4 USB-C ports (6 for the Framework 16) and 1 audio jack (0 for the Framework 16) in which those enclosures connect. So you can use them directly or put your nice beloved $17 hub that you like
- they paywall the connectivity - wrong extra, because those enclosures are open sourced - you can make your own. The first Ethernet port enclosures were made by the community, before Framework themselves made and sold them. Same with SD card. Also these enclosures, since they connect to USB-C, you can use them on any laptop or device with USB-C
Now, for the rest, I also have to question your "20+ years of repairing computers" since you fail to grasp how amazing this is. That is, you somehow manage to understand it completely upside down. "Baffling" is too weak of a word to explain ... anyway, here they are:
- first thing, you say the very unrealistic thing that you might need a new expansion card with a new protocol, and that you'd need a new motherboard for that. I say that's unrealistic because unless you need more bandwidth than the USB-C provides, the protocol will be handled by the enclosure itself. Anyway, the wrong thing here is that you say that the mobo is too expensive at $400-$500, that you can get an entire SH laptop for that. And that for a new protocol you'd have to wait 2-3 years for that. IF YOU WAIT 2-3 YEARS TO GET A SECOND HAND LAPTOP, WHY DO YOU COMPARE IT TO A NEW MOTHERBOARD ? You would get a SH motherboard too in that case, and guess what ? IT WILL BE HALF THE PRICE. I'm sure your mind is blown away now
- I would have given you free pass on this one, since many get this wrong, buy since you touted 20 years of BS, here it goes: it's not the upgradeability that's the most important thing of this laptop. It's the repairability. Except really catastriphic events, you're basically guaranteed that you (or anyone else, if you sell it) can use this laptop for 10 years, including if Framework the company goes bust tomorrow. Why ? Because you can replace everything, so you can get everything from another laptop. Also, most of the things you can create yourself. Like the chassis of the laptop or the expansion card enclosures mentioned earlier, you have the design files available from Framework, so you can print them yourself (not to mention make new designs). Things like a full motherboard you can't, since there's licences outside Framework control, but you still have more documentation on the pins and connectors, and repair shops can get access to full schematics, under NDA.
- with the above and with the modularity of the laptop, that means it's the cheapest and easier to repair. So there's a good chance of recouping the extra initial cost of the laptop like that. And also it makes it more resellable, since even if something is completely broken and you want to buy a new laptop, all the functioning components from the old one can be sold and used on the SH market. Also, since it's so customizable, this again increases the resell potential. Somebody might only want a motherboard, but not the screen that you have
- on the upgrade side, because it's modular, it's nice that you can upgrade it in steps, when you need it, when you want it, when you have the money for it.
- also, when you upgrade, you can keep what you like. Maybe you nailed the perfect keyboard. Now you don't have to check for how the keyboard on the new laptop are. Or be very sad that you have to compromise between best keyboard or best everything else. That is, this modularity unlocks more configurations and customization that aren't possible right now. Well, technically they are, but it's much much more difficult and usually much more expensive also. You might want to have a very premium high-end laptop, but you want the lowest resolution lowest refresh rate screen, since your use case doesn't need anything better. Why ? Not just because it's cheaper, but because the screen will consume less. There are other examples
- on the "what do you do with the old components when you upgrade" you basically answered your own question - either you a) sell it for the SH market or b) grab a case just like the $30 one that you visited in the video and turn the old motherboard into a home server.
- no matter if you upgrade every 2 years or 10 years, having this ecosystem of very easy to reuse and repurpose the laptop components means less waste, less need for new components. Some care about that. And if governments start adding policies on sustainability, Framework will be compliant out of the box.
In closing, it's true that you CAN be lucky and have your laptop also work without issues for 10 years. Or have it easy and cheap to repair. But on average that's not the case. And when you buy a new laptop, you don't really know how well it's going to last. Every single manufacturer had duds.
@@KentsTechWorld I did a pretty lengthy reply which is for some reason not being shown normally. Thought initially that it was deleted, but I remembered that if you sort the comments (at the top of the comments there's a "Sort By" option) by "Newest first" you can see extra comments and lo-and-behold, here there were my initial comment and my repost (that I deleted, since it was useless).
Sooo, if you would like to do that, I'll appreciate it. I know the tone is not friendly, but I'm sure you can see the arguments I made.
@@xDJKerox you the moaning one, you get so butthurt over someone not agreeing with you ;)
That is a loooot of talking about how easy it would be to get a comparable laptop, without using any of the 15 minutes on showing whether that is true or not. You might be able to find a good used laptop for that money. You are all talk no game in this video.
'cause yeah you did provide an example with the dongles vs integrated adapters and was hit real hard with reality immediately and had to admit that dongles will flop around and not be as nice to use. Props though for admitting that straight away. I just think it would be same story when finding a used PC. It won't be truly comparable, the one you find. These are good laptops that are repairable and modular for the everyday person. That's a justified purchase for many people.
Edit: I was informed in the comments that I was lacking accurate info about ramework. Please read comments to this post. The rest of this comment is not true:
If framework was actually serious about shifting the norm in laptops, they should do what their name suggest: provide an open framework standard. Not provide a proprietary system.
Nothing is proprietary. They're the only company which offers the schematics (edit: not fully complete, since there's things outside Framework control, but you do have the pinouts. Repair shops can get the full schematics with an NDA) and designs for the motherboard and the chassis.
People made their own enclosures (the things that Kent rants that are overpriced). The first Ethernet ports were made by the community.
Wow, the amount of damage that Kent does with his misinformation, now people beleive his BS too, jeez Louise
@@Winnetou17and the RISC-V motherboard (now being sold on their web store) wasn't made by them either. a company approached framework and said "can we have the motherboard design specs", then after a while, they sent framework a prototype motherboard design
@@Winnetou17 i stand corrected then. My apologies. I had not heard these things, asbi only follow what they do on the periphery
They do, they offer shematics of everything they legaly can, they encourage the community to make their own parts, they are active in the community and implement feedback. So far they are a great company in terms of community interaction and letting you own the product you bought (in contrary to other manufacturers that tell you that they still own the product).
The only place it can be critiqued is price, but that is understandable as we are talking about a rather small company that has a much higher costs to revenue % compared to other manufactuerers.
@@asbjo Hey, no problem, thanks for the reply!
L take
People don’t upgrade cpus on laptops, because it isn’t possible they were not given the option. You are basically saying my grandma used typewriters why would you use a laptop. That’s why we have innovations to change what people do for the better. Pretty close minded person
P.S people do upgrade cpu on older laptop where possible like in thinkpads
the PS part is a big no. some do most don't
I happen to have been around when you could upgrade CPU's in laptops and helped people do it.
and even back then, most did not upgrade sadly
They are absolutely overpriced. I would only pay that much for a chassis similar to older thinkpads before xx30 models, great keyboard and speakers and a trackpoint. A hot swappable battery would be good too but not a necessity for me.
I don't understand the connectivity argument because I'm pretty sure you can use a different USB C dongle from another company. They are not proprietary. Also they've encouraged third parties to make those hot swappable ports.
Personally I find the hot swappable ports a gimmick. I think having hot swappable ram, storage, battery makes sense. I'd rather have modular (daughterboard) but not hot swappable ports, this would make them cheaper, easier to have more ports and would be better for the environment (if you're a virtuous narcissist who wants to save the environment, pardon my rant but you arent).
Everything being said, I want framework to exist and succeed. And they will because the entire industry has gone down the drain.And if cheaper/used Thinkpads didn't exist I would probably consider them. But the entire market is so bad on both price and durability, that I simply find myself buying the bare minimum (used) and not giving any company my own money.
i was not saying it was a proprietary dongle, i was speculating and said so.
"Then maybe if really needed and you are a wizard you can take the guts out and put new in, most won't do that tho."
You sure about that? For someone who can't afford to replace the laptop every year, this isn't a ripoff. You don't even need to upgrade the mobo every time.
the statistics say I am right that most buy, use and buy new. most people have never upgrade in the last 20 years. if a few do, don't mean most. and I am looking at things from how the majority of people are using their tech, as that is how you get the best picture of what is going on. and I been seeing that trend ever since the late 90's from helping people "upgrade" or fix their computer or laptops
Truly spoken like someone who never leaves their desk 😂
I think my boss would be mad if i never left my desk :D
This is the best "Let's me tell the world i am a clueless fish, without telling you" moment lmao
Totally disagree, mostly ranting about a slightly expensive port, it's a fully customizable and repairable laptop, also comparing a motherboard that is NEW to a second hand laptop is silly, plus they don't have the production scale to bring cheap prices yet
we will see if they keep being around and if they take over the laptop world
True that, you fix computers right? I've fixed some, and many need reballing gpu or cpu, the cost and risk is not worth it 90% of the time, and the rest of the laptop becomes spares... Unlike fixing and upgrading at the same time, rescueing a nice chassis, screen, etc. Don't you think there's an upside? Motherboards are barely more expensive than the cpu, and the 16" has removable gpu, kinda cool don't you think?
I think they were intended for schools or Government use. I can see the selling points, spend the first year and then half as much the years after and so on....
that's even worse if that's the case.
But they are made for nerds like us
@@KentsTechWorld 😂😂
This is the most backwards take I've ever seen. I don't care for framework laptops but even I know how do those things work and why are the made like that. I suggest you do some more research before you post a video complaining about something to the internet, anyways I hope you good luck with the channel and I'm subscribing to encourage you on doing better
well i did about 4 hours of set research like watching what other youtubers said, and they kinda are on my side :O
but i will do more :)
I really lose trust in your judgement… who cares about 100 additional dollars to get an incredible product. I have the framework 16 and I prefer it now to my Mac.
in that case, then don't complain about laptop prices and blah the MS license. don't blame Apple as they provide way better hardware for the price that any other. If you don't complain about those things to start with, then you right "who cares". But the people that defend this for the most part do complain over those things, like Apple is super expensive cos I also need a $20 dongle etc. Those are who the video is for.
@@KentsTechWorld Would it then not make sense to attack that view instead of demonizing my beloved laptop? That seems unfair to me and reputation ruining for no reason…
I remember John Blow having huge issues with framework laptops. I just bought a mac, they are overpriced but they work and I ssh into unix terminals a lot so its the best of both worlds
Ragebait channel.
Blocking ads btw. Enjoy your 1 view.
Agree. The concept sounds great until you realize that upgrading one component requires upgrading every other component that it interfaces with. Even if they can make newer components backward compatible with older ones, you're not going to be able to extract the most performance out of the new component when it's saddled with, say slower RAM or an older motherboard with out of date specs. Ideally all components should be upgraded at once. If you're going to do that then just replace the whole laptop.
The motherboard and ram is not modular. The whole motherboard is upgraded at once. If you want a new cpu, you replace the entire motherboard. If you want the latest and fastest ram type you change the motherboard.
What is modular is the chassis,the display, the battery, the keyboard, etc... The ports are not just modular but hot swappable.
The main goal of the company is to make laptops that are not disposable. So users who don't really need the latest and fastest cpu can keep on using their old cpu without having a laptop that completely fails in 5 years due to glued in batteries and screens, hammered in keyboards, soldered ram and storage, etc.
Edit:Ram socket is not modular. Ram itself is SODIMM,not soldered to the motherboard and can be replaced if broken or to increase capacity. The RAM socket is soldered.
full modularity is a lame design. not everyone needs ethernet, sd card reader, audio jack or hdmi/dp, but everyone or almost everyone needs usbs and the more the better. so instead of making 4 bigger and more expensive removable modules they should make 2 removable modules for those more niche and personal types of connections and 3-4 stationary usb a-s and c-s for literally everyone.
Except that this laptop providees 4 USB-C and with those expansion enclosures that Kent cries over so much, you can get exactly what you need. Full modularity for the win!
Imagine calling framework laptops a scam while using Mac. Well, you don't have to imagine it. Ken right here is the perfect example.
Let me tech you about words like you a 5 year old lmao
Scam = setting or promising one thing and delivering something else or nothing(doing it knowingly).
Ripoff = something that is to expansive for what it is, or over promise. (and i said the same about mac's).
I also either buy used mac's or the lower end where they are not so much a ripoff.
But thanks for showing the world how clueless you are ;) keep being you we need the laughs
Why are you on Ubuntu Now? Did you not hate on Linux and just loved Windows your last few videos? and said linux is a shit desktop os xDDDD
I never said I hated linux. I just don't think it's the best desktop OS.
and I use it all the time, and been for close to 30 years.
What a lot of you all don't get is that, the reason I am critical about linux is that I know it can do better and I want it to do better. but that fact flys over everyone head ;)
Windows is garbage.
Here comes Kent once again dragging everyone back to reality.
LOL kicking and screaming
To reality ? 🤣 Everything he said was wrong. Maybe he could experience reality if he did more than 2 minutes of research.
@@Winnetou17 Expand.
@@mrtransistor6173 I replied directly to Kent in another comment, and I'm going to paste it here, to make it easier (I'm too lazy to change the whom to this is address, so when you see "you" it's directed at Kent)
If that's the case, you could spend more than 3 minutes of research before you make a video like this in which everything EVERYTHING is wrong:
- they paywall the connectivity - wrong, the laptop itself comes with 4 USB-C ports (6 for the Framework 16) and 1 audio jack (0 for the Framework 16) in which those enclosures connect. So you can use them directly or put your nice beloved $17 hub that you like
- they paywall the connectivity - wrong extra, because those enclosures are open sourced - you can make your own. The first Ethernet port enclosures were made by the community, before Framework themselves made and sold them. Same with SD card. Also these enclosures, since they connect to USB-C, you can use them on any laptop or device with USB-C
Now, for the rest, I also have to question your "20+ years of repairing computers" since you fail to grasp how amazing this is. That is, you somehow manage to understand it completely upside down. "Baffling" is too weak of a word to explain ... anyway, here they are:
- first thing, you say the very unrealistic thing that you might need a new expansion card with a new protocol, and that you'd need a new motherboard for that. I say that's unrealistic because unless you need more bandwidth than the USB-C provides, the protocol will be handled by the enclosure itself. Anyway, the wrong thing here is that you say that the mobo is too expensive at $400-$500, that you can get an entire SH laptop for that. And that for a new protocol you'd have to wait 2-3 years for that. IF YOU WAIT 2-3 YEARS TO GET A SECOND HAND LAPTOP, WHY DO YOU COMPARE IT TO A NEW MOTHERBOARD ? You would get a SH motherboard too in that case, and guess what ? IT WILL BE HALF THE PRICE. I'm sure your mind is blown away now
- I would have given you free pass on this one, since many get this wrong, buy since you touted 20 years of BS, here it goes: it's not the upgradeability that's the most important thing of this laptop. It's the repairability. Except really catastriphic events, you're basically guaranteed that you (or anyone else, if you sell it) can use this laptop for 10 years, including if Framework the company goes bust tomorrow. Why ? Because you can replace everything, so you can get everything from another laptop. Also, most of the things you can create yourself. Like the chassis of the laptop or the expansion card enclosures mentioned earlier, you have the design files available from Framework, so you can print them yourself (not to mention make new designs). Things like a full motherboard you can't, since there's licences outside Framework control, but you still have more documentation on the pins and connectors, and repair shops can get access to full schematics, under NDA.
- with the above and with the modularity of the laptop, that means it's the cheapest and easier to repair. So there's a good chance of recouping the extra initial cost of the laptop like that. And also it makes it more resellable, since even if something is completely broken and you want to buy a new laptop, all the functioning components from the old one can be sold and used on the SH market. Also, since it's so customizable, this again increases the resell potential. Somebody might only want a motherboard, but not the screen that you have
- on the upgrade side, because it's modular, it's nice that you can upgrade it in steps, when you need it, when you want it, when you have the money for it.
- also, when you upgrade, you can keep what you like. Maybe you nailed the perfect keyboard. Now you don't have to check for how the keyboard on the new laptop are. Or be very sad that you have to compromise between best keyboard or best everything else. That is, this modularity unlocks more configurations and customization that aren't possible right now. Well, technically they are, but it's much much more difficult and usually much more expensive also. You might want to have a very premium high-end laptop, but you want the lowest resolution lowest refresh rate screen, since your use case doesn't need anything better. Why ? Not just because it's cheaper, but because the screen will consume less. There are other examples
- on the "what do you do with the old components when you upgrade" you basically answered your own question - either you a) sell it for the SH market or b) grab a case just like the $30 one that you visited in the video and turn the old motherboard into a home server.
- no matter if you upgrade every 2 years or 10 years, having this ecosystem of very easy to reuse and repurpose the laptop components means less waste, less need for new components. Some care about that. And if governments start adding policies on sustainability, Framework will be compliant out of the box.
In closing, it's true that you CAN be lucky and have your laptop also work without issues for 10 years. Or have it easy and cheap to repair. But on average that's not the case. And when you buy a new laptop, you don't really know how well it's going to last. Every single manufacturer had duds.
@@mrtransistor6173 you get 4 of the passtrougs when you order the laptop, so you don't have a gaping hole in it if you don't spend extra. The reason you can buy exra ports is so that if one breaks you can replace it for 10 bucks instead of having to deal with a defect motherboard port. It also offers the possibility to swap ports if you need different ones.
Framework publishes all the scematics they legaly can and encourages people to make their own parts and to create a company to directly compete with them on part production.
Also the only part that you have to buy from framework is the motherboard, all others can be bought directly from the manufacturer for the same price it would cost you to upgrade a tower PC.
This video betrays your lack of understanding of the prices we are dealing with. There is a much better video made by a more informed person on the price of upgrade. I suggest you delete this and try again next time
😂
Spot on 💯
No, he is not. He would be right if there werent already 4 ports of your choosing included in the laptop purchase, so connectivity isn't behind a paywall and even then he would only be right if we asume that everyone only needs the cheapest laptop for office work and nothing more. The higher end the laptop the smaller the price difference between the framework. Also comparing the prices of a used laptop to buying a new framework (instead of the used one that also was 500 dollars that he was lucking on) is quite a stupid way to compare it. Also he forgets that most reasons for laptop replacements can easily be firxed with the framework for a fraction of the cost. Broken display? You can get a new one for 100 dollars and replace it yourself in 3 min, no prior experience needed. Broken SSD, same thing. Battery gets bad, get a new one and replace it. Need more ram, no problem. You have a massive dent in the chasis, you can even easily and cheaply replace that. All parts and scematics are available.