+25 watts close drafting. +5 watts fancy wax. +15 watts aero bike. +10 for tires, +10 for deep wheels .. and of curse +50 watts for shaving every hair. I don't even train anymore, I just buy fast things. I won my last race, and I couldn't stop at the finish arc because I was coasting uphill gaining speed.
Engineer here, 6:41 bike drive trains are a very very low pressure application, the fact that chainrings can be made out of aluminium and you can use wax which has virtual no lubricant film resilience, would be a little hint ... would have been nice if some commerical grad lubricants were tested! You know that stuff with datasheets, which has to meet industrie standards ...
if the chain was in a closed lubrication system, low viscosity oil could be used and the wear and resistance would be the same or less than with wax, but the chain on the bike is exposed to the dust that every oil collects and then you get liquid sandpaper that eats the chain, so the main problem with all oils is that they are liquid and sticky and not lubricating properties
I don't do any of the things mentioned in this video. Once a month I wipe the chain with a rag wet with mineral spirits then apply garage door chain lube. Works for me.
Started with full immersion waxing a short while ago, my biggest suprise was how clean the chain actually stays! Normally after a ride i'd degrease the chain and run it throught a cloth, these clothes were black all the time. Now nothing sticks to the metal, less friction, less wear, less of a mess. I can advise this to anyone.
Odd. I've used three different MucOff lubes on mtb and commuter. Cheap and last long enough - never had a creaking issue. I have no doubt there are better lubes around but I have no care for chasing 5 watts as I don't race.
Been a long time fan of Dylan. Been a long time fan of Adam. Two together in one video... this is 27mins of legitimate, well-educated and fact-driven bike nerdery dialogue. Bloody love it. Switched to Silca SS on Adam's paper on the lube. Drivetrain has lasted longer and is way cleaner, even though I was previously using Squirt (which is one of the top performing drip lubes). Would go the full immersive wax route but live in a tiny place with no room for a proper crock pot assembly line.
I can absolutely support everything Mr. ZFC is saying. Tested and using Rex Black Diamond on my turbo. In the 0-360 watt range it is at least or around 3-5 watt faster than Muc Off hydro, measured with Kickr V5 and P2M NGeco.
MucOff is a marketing "lifestyle" company. Your results are not surprising. I compared the difference between a crank based and trainer based power meter and found the delta was noticeably lower with fancy wax. The results seem to hold for a long time between waxing intervals too.
I switched to super secret wax about a year ago and I love it. I have two chains and once I got used to the different process the time is not an issue at all. The biggest thing I like is how clean the chain stays. I can remove to old chain for rewaxing and my hands don’t get nasty. It’s amazing really. Plus, the new chain is so smooth it just feels faster. Overall I would never consider going back. BUT the one thing that is really annoying with super secret is that it does not like water. So I’m trying silca synergetic this year to see if it is as smooth and clean as the hot wax and to see how it handles getting wet. I imagine I will have two sets of chains going forward. The hot wax chain for dry season and synergetic chain for rainy season. The only other slight complaint for hot wax is the need to keep master links on hand from removing the chain so often. That’s very minor and all in all I would never go back even if I don’t solve the wet conditions issue.
Hi Tommy! You are correct - super secret lifespan in wet is not that long. If it survives the typical length of your training rides then it is handy in that post wet ride it is pretty easily reset with boiling water flush rinses, dry, re apply. It also likes a long set time & double application before known wet ride - which may not fit the plans - but can be handy to know - ie if you looking at a decent wet ride on the weekend, apply ss drip, allow 24hr set, apply another coating, allow 24hr set. This will give notable extra lifespan vs say just one application the night before. Synergetic is a brilliant option in the wet as it is not easily washed out from inside chain. However - just remember it is impossible for ANY wet & most wax lubricant options to not have a whole lot of abrasive stuff deep inside & part of the lubricant. So unless you solvent flush clean chain post wet ride, you are just adding more lube over the top of that abrasive contamination. Frequent wet riding is balance of lubricant choice that will a) last the duration you need and b) is the easiest for YOU to reset post wet rides. But definitely for some, a synergetic for wet, ss drip for dry can be a great approach.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 thanks for the info. Do you have a video on how to clean and maintain a chain for synergetic lube (or similar)? Most of my “wet” rides would be wet pavement and very rarely a full on rainy day road ride. Do you recommend resetting a chain after any wet ride? I appreciate all your research.
@@tommyt8857 Not a video as such - i do have one somewhere i think showing the litres of solvent it can take to properly re set a dirty wet lube chain - but thats different to regular clean. Mostly it is a balance. Ie for most - it would be not practical or remotely cost effective to fully flush clean until perfect the chain post every wet ride if riding in wet is frequent. However increased friction and wear will definitely bite your cost to run if little cleaning to reset is done. How fastidious you may want to be can really depend on level of groupset and cost - ie if your chain is $150 and cassette $700 and rings are integrated power meter sram axs red at $1500 - i would recommend flush cleaning post wet rides as often as is practical for you. If it is shimano 105 - maybe weekly is going to be fine. but again there are variables - not all water / wet riding is equal. Areas that receive a lot of rain the water can be a lot cleaner. Other areas are near the coast and there can be a not insignificant amount of sand (as far as your chain is concerned) on the road that will be washed in - and that will hurt if it isnt flushed out. So it is still really individual - how much, how long, how often, your power, cost of components, how easy is it for you do to cost effective decent flush clean etc etc - but if you play around and ponder and find what is a good balance for you, that generally goes much better overall vs not playing around with it and just letting friction and wear run away
@kingofcrunk4237 Two little bits of info that may help - 1) it contains tungsten disulfide which is dark, so the wax is dark - excess wax pressed out and then pressed onto sides link plates will look black and 2) there is an interaction between the wax and the coatings used inside chain which causes basically anything to run black - you could put the most clear clean mineral oil on a perfectly cleaned chain, ride for an hour is a level 4 biohazard lab on an ergo, and it will be black from the interaction between the oil and the chains coatings. So even if the wax had no tungsten disulfide and you used perfectly clean food grade paraffin, what comes out of chain to sides of the chain - initial excess will be clear, later wax coming out will be black. You do not need to ultrasonic clean any more past initial prep. The wax is not dirty in a bad way if you only ride in dry conditions - jut re wax, you will never track a tangible lower friction / wear benefit for your ultrasonic cleaning time vs if you just relaxed and re waxed. If you ride offroad - just wipe surface dust off with an alcohol spray on microfiber cloth to not import surface dust stuck to chain from static elec of chain whizzing through the air into pot, but it is largely just external dust, so you dont need to ultrasonic, unless you just really enjoy ultrasonic.
Came across Zero Friction Cycling by accident. What a Fortunate accident it was. I learned a lot. Ended up sticking to UFO 2.0 and só far it has been amazing. The clean drivetrain, the smooth operation, the “no noise” ... I mean it is as if there is no chain there. Love it
Wax convert here. Thanks ZFC. I don’t really care about watts. I love it because it is much cleaner and very easy it is to maintain. Much less time than cleaning and re-lubing with a standard wet lube.
For most people it's not the watts, it's the drivetrain lifetime. And the zero friction data are really important. Immersion waxing a chain is not hard once you've got the stuff you need and have done it a few times. Over several years I've found the $$ gained are not marginal.
@@arhu74 Two things. At 1000+ miles between waxings one SRAM 5 pack of links isn't expensive compared to buying drivetrain parts more often. Also, you absolutely can reuse them. Use your phone camera or a lens to magnify and look at the groove interface. You can see when they are bad.
A lot of knowledge! The only bit I don't quite agree with "For a 3-4 hour wet muddy XCM event, start with wax". I've tried this, and the when the wax suddenly wears out, there's not only increased friction, the drivetrain can even fail (chainsuck, failing to change gears etc.). Stopping to re-lube is often not an option, because this means getting dropped from the group. Copious amounts of wet lube seem to be the only option here.
A long time (20 yrs) ago I did a long XC race in wet conditions, Test of Metal in Squamish BC. Rain preceded the days before the race and it was wet and rainy day-of. Tantalus Bikes suggested the Pedro's SynLube Wet Conditions. It went on like molasses but my drivetrain worked perfectly. The mud/muck there is more big-grain and not clay-like, but it still wants to stick to your bike. I've used wax process (dunked chain, melted wax) on my road chain, probably 30 yrs ago. Found it annoying as a process, but in constant dry conditions it was smooth and quiet for a surprisingly long time.
I used to use Rock & Roll Gold, which was pretty good because I applied it every ride and each application cleans too. I tried one of the Muc Off products and the chain got noisy after 15 miles. A local shop recommended some terrible stuff that was thick, sticky, and the worst. Now I’ve got Super Secret on my road & XC bike and Synergetic on my winter bike. I’m most impressed with how long Synergetic lasts. No more daily chain lubing!
@@jeremysweeten2792 - Agreed. If you apply every ride it’s great! Very clean and quiet. But I’m blown away by the Silca products now. Their oil based lube lasts for many rides.
Every ride!? Ain't no body got time for that! .... having said that, it does make sense, as my chain squeals like I washed it with rusty water after just two rides with R&R Gold when on dusty trails. Just wondering if you should fully degrease after every ride too?
@@ljadf - No need to degrease. The cool thing about R&R Gold is that you flood the chain, and that cleans it out. Then you crank it to get it to penetrate. Finally, wipe it down to get the crud off and dry it so it doesn’t attract more crud. Applying it is quick because you just squirt crank. No need to go link by link from the master link. Wiping and drying is the time consuming part. It never gets perfectly clean, so if you have OCD, it could take a while. I just made it part of my pre-ride ritual and didn’t worry about perfect cleanliness. Great longevity of my chain doing that! If you don’t want that much work, Synergetic is perfect. I handles ride after ride. Perfect for wet riding. Super Secret lasts reasonably well too, but it gets noisy more quickly. The good news is that it wipes down clean. The bad news is that you should apply it well before riding, if not the day before. It’s harder for me to get a post ride ritual!
@@jeremysweeten2792 Its good stuff... and inexpensive so you can really flush out the chain with it. BUT... must apply at least half a day before riding. Put it on then go immediately and the carrier fluid hasn’t dried out yet and its gonna cost you nearly 10 watts.
Nerd-tastic stuff. Been using squirt now for a long time and happy. I warm it a little before applying to aid penetration. Keeps things quiet and chain relatively clean, even on the MTB. Now that I know it's up there with the best, it's a bonus. One comment on the hot wax method in the video - not cleaning the chain (even wiping it) before dipping it into the new wax is silly. any contaminants released during the new dip, go into the fresh melted wax and will build up over time. Wipe a paper towel over a well-used waxed chain that's in need of re-waxing, it aint spotless.
Hey peter! Mostly correct there depending on riding. If it is a dry road ride, being solid - there is SO LITTLE contamination that just re wax is the way to go, you would need the resources of CERN to detect a difference from any cleaning intervention first. The black you see on the side of plates is just friction modifier stuff in the wax (moly or ws2) - it isnt collected abrasive contamination. Off road rides one should absolutel wipe chain with a cloth to remove surface dust that will stick to surface of chain from static elec of chain whizzing through the air, same as dust sticks to frame and you didnt lube frame. However, even if one never did this, re waxing will remain much lower friction for much longer as it takes a long time for abrasive contamination in the pot to approach anything remotely like what happens with drip lubing. Most lubricants - especially most wax lubricants - you will apply about 3ml to chain per application. Your chain will be over 100 links long - so that is 0.03ml per link of new lube going over the top of old lube which will have X level of contamination mixed in. Many wax drip lubricants, at least half of that amount is carrier, so less than 0.015ml of new lubricant per link. Over time the ratio of contamination to lubrication will continue to get worse as there is just such small overall amount of new lubricant coming in. Vs immersive waxing, chain is going into a bath of circa 500ml of 100% lubricant. Yes over time the contamination will build up in the pot - but it takes a very long time for this to remotely approach what is happening in a drip lubricant chain - most especially for road riders. So really, one can just relax and re wax and enjoy the great flush clean and contamination reset every time that this method brings
@@zerofrictioncycling992 I ride in ireland, mostly country roads so that should be noted. I also base most of my 'wax' experience with Squirt which isn't a proper wax.
I use Silca’s SYNERGETIC on my track bikes & road bikes and it’s awesome. Silent, buttery smooth and feels fast. Easy to clean & maintain and affordable. No Brainer for me. Hot Wax is barely 2w faster so that’ll suffice
Josh at Silca has suggested as a strategy for long events with terrible conditions is to start with a waxed chain and re-lube at a pit stop with a high end wet lube like synergetic. But either way, it's a tough call.
is impressive to see an 5w-20 motor oil is on 5.5, 6 watts low ratio. as wet lube was an insane price x peformance lost only by standard wax. so my good experiences with 2t motul 800 is confirmed, and as an ester type oil maybe is interesting to see an ZFC test with them because ester has magnetic proprieties.
Thank you for this video, it was probably one of the most informative bike tech videos Ive watched in quite a while. I had been using Muc Off for the last two years and was surprised that I had to replace my chain so soon. I am switching to some new lubricants after this video and not buying Muc Off probably ever again.
Great stuff, Zero Friction, Adam loves his details be warned.... he will make your cycling way better though. I changed to the lubricants he recommends and it has made that piece of maintenance way easier, and cleaner and my drivetrain last so much longer. Looking forward to part 2
Thank you for the real conversation. I just have to say that I appreciate that you both have not fallen for the MucOff marketing engine. If they spent half as much on product development as they do on influencing people we would all be better off.
I share your thoughts. I will cover this in a vid soon i think, but i definitely have concerns re the sales / marketing model of the likes of Muc-Off. Firstly they obviously have an ENORMOUS marketing machine, which costs big $$$. And they offer retailers industry leading margins , which is why it is so prevalent. It is extremely clever - from a marketing strategy perspective. A rep goes to visit an LBS - shows them their amazing testing, R&D, work with top world tour team & athletes. LBS owner has zero reason to doubt such NASA level work behind lubricant. Then they see the margins they can make vs other lubricants - AND in some countries they appear to offer 70% margin on ALL muc off if they stock exclusively muc off. So LBS owner thinks it is a win win, great product for customers, great margins for them. But for M-O to sell products (often through an importer for that country) at such a low price such that muc-off make enough money to pay for this monster machine - AFTER the importer has made a viable cut, and the retailer has made a great margin - what do you think the actual production cost of the products are..... I would hazard a guess that like their industry leading margins for retailers, they have industry leading lowest cost to produce. And so IF i am correct, we can follow a bouncing ball that we have a very low cost product, delivering what appear to be really poor results - which is a bit of a match. However if the retailers make great margin for products that have huge marketing by muc-off to drive sales for the LBS - well we see why so many LBS have massive muc-off stands, whilst other amazing products & manufacturers struggle to get a spot on shelves and penetration. It is a great competition lock out strategy by Muc off, and overall just a very clever and well executed sales & marketing strategy overall. But at what cost to cyclists? I sure have some work to do to try to make any impact in the above. I am going to need a lot of help by a lot of cyclists around the world sharing proper knowledge with their cycling friends - One day i hope M-O are forced to actually make a very low wear lubricant option!!
I'm glad to see my personal experiences with Muc Off validated here. My wear rate with Hydro Dynamic was shockingly bad. I'm talking 300-400 miles maximum on a Dura Ace chain in 100% dry riding conditions.
I am a fan of dumond tech. what I understand, it is a liquid plastic that bonds and coats the chain like a wax. its very clean, and I have had great luck with chain wear, my current mtb chain (xtr) has lasted over 2,000 miles. Not sure about the watts, but it smells nice so thats a plus.
I bought a new chain and degreased with UFO Clean (also cleaned cassette and chain rings). Links felt very free after that. Then did Silca Hot wax, and rode on the trainer for 1.5 hours (wax shavings all over the towel under the bike). Checked for link mobility after the ride and they still feel pretty stiff. Hot wax definitely doesn't seem less friction than my old Rock&Roll Gold right now....
I wax my Connex Wipperman chain on my Shimano road bike drive train. No tools required to take the chain on and off your bike when waxing. Has a unique connecting link. Makes waxing easy.
Are you going to look into the difference between high quality ceramic bearings versus high quality steel bearings? Hambini Engineering stated that a high quality steel bearing can be faster than a high quality ceramic bearing, and much cheaper. He was also saying that over a short period of time ceramic bearings wear and get even slower than their steel counterparts. Everyone seems to believe that ceramic are faster but Hambini had some good points and actually showed some comparative data that was compelling. Is everyone blindly believing the marketing hype around ceramic or is there actually something there?
ZFC actually already have a paper on that from a while back, I only looked at it today though. I had previously watched the same Hambini video you mention. I think the price of Ceramic bearings are beyond my performance needs, but very interesting to read the paper by ZFC and given the approach ZFC take to data and openness, worth a read.
I have been using Squirt chain lube for a few years now. I am quite anal of keeping my chain meticulately clean and quiet. I wipe the chain down lightly after every ride. At least once a month I strip the chain clean and apply a fresh coat. My chains last at least 5000 miles, and my last one lasted over 7500 miles before the chain checker read .75. I ride over 10000 miles a year and am very conscientious of keeping my bike clean and functioning properly. When I clean my cassette and my jockey wheels. I take the the wheels off and clean then till when I wipe them, the cloth is clean. It takes more time, but for me it is what works. I guess it is the Marine in me that I pay lot of attention to detail.
Thanks very much for this Dylan. I went and checked out ZFC and had a few things confirmed that I was pretty sure about, especially the bollocks about factory grease (something that comes up, All. The. Fucking. Time.). I've been using Rock 'n Roll for a while, not going to go to how wax, truly can't be bothered, but I see why it looks pretty awesome.
Oh wow I only ride an old 3x7 mountain bike in dry, urban conditions but I've be using 3in1 oil! Keeping my drivetrain clean admittedly, but I've been doing the wrong thing! getting some wax based lube immediately!
I was so hoping he outlined the initial cleaning process of the chain. I like using a good degreaser, thenZylene solvent to remove any remaining coatings. However this is a really really harsh cleaning. I also do 2 or 3 chains at a time in the immersive wax method. I still only get about 250 miles per chain before I need to relax them, which I can easily get in one week....it's a hassle for sure.
I find it much more reasonable to maintain my waxed chain then when I originally took on the process in 1974. And no I have not run waxed chains all these years, regrettably.
Hello Dylan, I am using hot melt wax for a year, not Silca one, just clear wax. After few rewaxing process I experienced pretty bad contamination in wax itself even though I cleaned my chains before every bath. This kind of contamination is not visible in Silca wax because it is grey from the beginning. Do you ever thinking obout something like that? As I understand, from video, there is no cleaning need which should make my experience even worst. Thank you for comment. Pavel.
pour that dirty wax into a tall, narrow tin container, which contained deodorant, and place it in a larger container containing, for example, old motor oil, which you heat so much that the wax completely melts. that oil serves to keep the wax liquid as long as possible, so that the impurities settle out, when the wax hardens, cut open the can and take the wax out. the lower part where the impurities are cut off with a knife
I dont race, but I've been using finish line for years. In 10,000 miles I had 2 chains and the same chainrings and cassette. I did clean my chain after almost every ride. I will now buy a better product.
I’ve been running the SILCA molten wax and it lasts longer than the candle wax I used previously. One thing I learned is letting the wax cool to just starting to form a film and then removing the chain. Theory is less wax drips out the inner parts of the chain.
In practice the moment you apply some power through the pedals it quickly squeezes out the excess wax. Basically you're wasting more wax, because forces are far too great to leave anything more than thin layer on the contact surfaces. Silca wax user myself, I know they present this method in instructional videos, but it's just not optimal. Bigger mess on your frame, longer break-in time when freshly waxed. Check Adam's video on it.
You can make your own chain link "squeezer" with nedle nose players , CUT a notch. < > So in plyer. If using screw type chain brake , try the hi side of pin , not the flush side, so you'll be pushing pin out the way it was put in. " DONT push pin out ALL THE WAY " .
23:25 "hot melt waxing is probably the most time intensive way to lubricate your chain..." Is it though? Remove chain, drip it into dedicated pot of wax, place in Instant Pot on "saute" setting for 10 minutes. Let cool, reinstall chain. Compared to the amount of time I spent cleaning and oiling my chain in the past, waxing is solo much less work, for longer lasting results.
Very glad you did this with Adam. I've watched every second of his videos, many of them multiple times and I've learned so much. I also switched to Silca Hot Melt immersive wax from Squirt lube because of ZFC and it's been fantastic. It's actually so much easier and faster than I thought it was going to be, especially for the results. Adam also recommended Silca Synergetic for indoor training and again, he was dead on. Hope you do more with him.
Thanks for sharing your experiences. Since I am currently using Squirt can you please share your thoughts on your perceived advantages of switching to the hot melt wax please? When I use Squirt I submerge the bottle into a cup of hot water and have found that it penetrates well although I feel that it does not last very long. Thanks :)
@@vietnguyen4312 Hey Viet. Absolutely. Please remember that I'm just one person and other people may experience something different. When I started using Squirt around 20 years ago, it was the best lube on the market. Hands down. I used it on both my road and MTB. It worked great for a very long time. My biggest, and really only, complaint was that it just got gummed up after only 1 or 2 reapplications and it really didn't seem to self-clean like so many wax based lubes claim to do. In the last year, as I started learning more about chain lubrication from Zero Friction Cycling (ZFC). Adam said that Squirt was still a decent lube but it did have trouble getting into the rollers and deeper parts of the chain. And I can confirm that as well. Adam did say in one of his videos that the only way he'd recommend using Squirt was to fully immerse the chain, and that's exactly what you're doing. However, if you're already taking off your chain and immersing it, you really should be using hot melt wax. The chain stays unbelievably clean (seriously), smooth, and quiet. And I only have to spray a little isopropyl alcohol on a rag a wipe it down after ever ride to keep it that way. It really is amazing. And I have pretty much zero chain wear. I thought waxing was only for racers and was a huge hassle. I was very, very wrong. It's about as easy as it gets and I don't have to deal with degreasing and washing the chain ever again. It's a win win win. Just watch the Zero Friction Cycling channel. You'll get it. As for which wax to use, any of ZFC's top rated hot melt waxes will do but I love Silca as a company and Josh Portner is a genius and seems like a genuinely great person so it's Silca's hot melt wax for me. Hope that helps and best of luck.
@@vietnguyen4312 Hi Viet! In short the main (but huge) advantages of immersive waxing is that every rewax resets any contamination that started to build. With a drip lubricant, contamination will build over time until you flush clean it again, and then some lubricants - like squirt - require a bit of faff post clean to ensure penetration. After every re wax, all parts of the chain are simply re coated in a super slippery wax. You dont have to do any cleaning of chain or drivetrain - just re wax. Aside from remaining day in day out lowest friction and wear, everything also remains lovely and clean - every time chain comes out of the pot it looks brand new, but you have had to do any cleaning, just popped it into a pot and turned the pot on and swished it when wax melted. Typically the benefits of immersive waxing vs drip lubricants will either be very obvious and a cyclist as soon as become aware of it cannot wait to switch. Others - it just doesn''t click that it would be worth it for them, and so best to stick with a top drip lubricant option that matches your riding. Immersive waxing is not for everyone, just that for those whom it is for, it is a really happy time all the time forever and ever amen. Extremely pleasing friction / wear & cleanliness results can be attained without too much more hassle with top drip lubricants - one just needs to do a bit of the correct periodic maintenance for that lubricant. And remember - now also becoming quite popular amongst those for whom immersive waxing every time is not for them - using with an immersive wax compatible lubricant is the perfect middle ground - wax - use SS drip / UFO drip / Tru tension tungsten all weather for next 3 to 5 applications - then re wax again to reset any contamination that has started to build - no cleaned before waxing is needed with those options. This really takes the pressure of for many vs re waxing every time, and delivers still the majority of the friction, wear and cleanliness savings of immersive waxing.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Thank you very much. You advice is excellent. I have just purchased some UFO drip and love your second idea. Thanks again. Enjoy
I only ride on well paved roads, and rarely get caught in the rain. I've been using WL Clean Ride since it came out. I noticed that you'll lose an additional 3 watts over the "best" lubes, but I use it because my chains and cassettes last a crazy long time. I'll check my chains for elongation with one of those chain checkers, and then with an accurate 12" rule to make sure. I'll always get 12,000 to 15,000 miles out of a chain, and find my cassettes last through 3 chains, or longer. Back in the 80's, cogs would tend to wear out much quicker than today. I remember having to replace the 16 tooth cog on 7 speed freewheels every year. I've never had to replace the big ring on a crank, even when using that ring 98% of the time.
Thanks Dylan great info. Just thought I would share one more step that I take when I use the commercial wax lubes (I use Squirt?) To enable the wax lube to penetrate into the chain easily I put the bottle of wax lube in a cup of hot water to allow the lubricant to become more watery. Then when I apply the wax to the chain the lube is very running so I assume it gets right into those tight spots whereas a colder wax lube may not penetrate as well? I will try some of the other brands that Adam recommended.
I do a very similar thing. I run Smoove. I keep it in hot water. Clean my chain with a degreaser and a clip on cleaner. I then rinse the chain thoroughly. Probably two 2l kettles worth of boiling water. Dry the chain. Then in big ring big cog I apply the smoove, two revolutions of the chain and I just keep hand cranking for a good five mins. Then I allow to dry for 5 mins before making another repeat application. And then I allow to dry overnight
@@alastairstedman7840 Hi guys - yes this does help, but viscosity is strangely not all there is too penetration. Some wax lubricants tested have been very thin, but still had notable penetration issues. A bunch of complex stuff really determines if the wax can get past the very narrow gap between inner plate link shoulders to get to the pin or not. Lower viscosity really does help for those lubricants, but it doesnt solve the issue - it just lessens it a bit. Best practice is to apply to a warmed lube AND WARM CHAIN (if chain is cool, the 0.1ml hitting the link will instantly cool to the chain temp, so it doesnt matter if you warmed the lube if the chain is cool, the lube will be same temp as the chain in about 0.5 of a second). If applying at 20dg + room temp, dont worry. if your room / shed is cold - then absolutely warming the chain is needed or there is just no point warming the lube. Apply initially on max chain line angle - BEFORE the cassette. This has the link parts opened up as much as possible where you are applying, but they will straighten up again when they run over the cog. This provides a bit of a pumping action for the lubricant and gives it best chance of getting through the inner plate link gap. After this, run chain for a about 10 runs around drive train in smallest cog for max link articulation, wipe any excess thoroughly ,and allow any specified set time as a MINIMUM. Many drip wax lubricants can see a notable lifespan increase if this repeated - ie if you had a very long hard ride coming up - do the above, allow 24hr set, and repeat with a 24hr set before the big ride.
White lightning clean ride (blue bottle)is my favorite I’ve tried and own them all White lightning clean ride soaks in deep very quickly and keeps the chain clean! It gets a lot of hate in Europe, because of the green fans
All wet lubes soak deep in chain as the chain is not water proof. By what mechanism does clean ride keep your chain clean? I havent tested it as WL honestly are pretty shocking.... (in my opinion based on a fair bit of focus in this space) and so they are not on my priority list to test at all, im not really here to spend a lot of time proving lubricants are bad vs what lubricants are the genuine top options. At the end of the day if you are happy, then for sure stay happy and dont let anyone tell you otherwise, including me. However, i have an extremely strong feeling that if you are happy with a WL product, trying a proven top product like synergetic, revolubes, rex black diamond (which is black but... amazing re performance) will have you doing cartwheels
@@zerofrictioncycling992 White lightning clean ride is a “wax Lube” May not be as slick as some others , but boy I’ll tell you what, it gets inside the chain
@@XCRiders yes it wont have penetration issues as it is very thin - it is mostly carrier, not a lot of lubrication is left behind. Whilst not overly expensive per bottle, to maintain some hopefully effective lubrication you need to apply it a lot - lubricant cost adds up quickly vs many other options where a bottle lasts a lot lot longer. Again if you are happy with it, thats cool - but the odds that it will remotely compete with the proven top products is just incredibly low. It is very old tech - so it is a bit like an i-phone 1 vs an i-phone 14, and that is being really generous - and yes enviro wise it is pretty nasty stuff. So overall you would undoubtedly be able to choose a different product that costs you less re usage, gives you lower wear, and will be much more enviro + home toxicity friendly. I understand if you have been really happy with a product for a long time, and are still really happy with it that you want to defend it in the face of it being criticized vs modern proven stuff - however - i would say that until you have tried some of the top 10 tested stuff, you just wont really know if what you are defending should be defended. One large local bike store stopped stocking WL clean ride and epic ride a few years ago due to never ending complaints from customers, and they tried it themselves, were of the opinion that clean ride needed to be re lubed with a large amount every 100km to keep chain effectively lubed - and so even though they are super happy to sell the likes of muc-off and finish line and the wear life problems that come with those (in mine and others opinion....) - even they could not abide stocking white lightning products. So from friction facts testing, to jason smith following on from that, to josh poertners knowledge of lubricants, to mine based on A LOT of testing + workshop, to even a major bike store who was happy to stock basically anything but had to give up on stocking WL , to it being very old tech that it is hard to say was competitive 15 yrs ago vs now, to the eviro credentials - the case against i would say is pretty strong, the case for is relying on some die hard legacy customers and just long term brand name recognition. And bike stores that really like fast parts wear rates to try to get more sales of chains, cassettes and chain rings. But again - in all honesty, if you are happy - stay happy - i will rest my case here and you can ignore all silly input from me :)
I'm not a professional or competitive cyclist what so ever so I don't think its been a huge issue for me, but I don't seem to have the best talent when it comes to choosing lubes. For a long time I used Epic Ride. I most recently switched to Finish Line Dry. I also have a 2oz bottle of Muc Off Dry that I leave in my bag just for emergency (I randomly bought it just to get me over a free shipping threshold a while ago) but I haven't really used it. I am low on my finish line and was lookup up whether I should get the bulk 32oz and be set for years or what other options are out there. I'm not going the hot melt route, but I ordered Squirt and going to give that a go. Should at least be an upgrade from what I have been using.
This is a great interview and a great man that was the first one got deep deep inside one of the most exiting issues of the bicycles world and the addicted bikers. Many thanks for that! I wish to add my small point: The most experimented subject here was the ability of the lube to keep low abrasion. I must say that for keeping the chain lubed and working and shifting smooth, in a long day lets say for 6-8 hours of riding , wet or dry conditions, i still find the heavy wet lubes to be the best! Yes you will have to degrease the chain after riding and lube again, and yes the abrasion will be high, And the steel will be eaten more then wax. But your chain will be still smooth and shifting.
I'm not sure I fully understand some of his comments. The chart at 9:54 shows that Rock-n-Roll extreme did very well in the watts test, but it is marketed as an MTB specific lube.
Great info for sporty bikes which usually get lots of maintenance and attention. I am wondering if these products are also good for utility bikes which gets used a lot but dont get serviced to often and also get used in harsh conditions.
Ok if I can be a bit of a rookie with the bike maintenance process. I have a new chain on my bike. He says I need to clean the lubricants off that it came with. So I scrub it. down with a brush and soap. Then I get one the good drip lubes like synergetic and apply it. Say I give my bike a good cleaning once a week, do I have to reapply chain lube every time, or does it last longer than what I am used to. Thanks for the information.
Never, ever, remove factory grease from a new chain. Ever. Just fit it, then oil with standard cheap bike oil as needed. Never, ever put it away wet either. Dry it with a rag, then oil it. Every time. A chain brush is a useful item too, £5 on amazon or ebay. There is no need for expensive lubricants, but there is a need for regular inspection & maintenance.
With the internal hub gear technology improvement like Classified hub, maybe the best unbound lube would be no chain, a carbon belt drive and all shifts happening inside the hub🤷🏻?
Great topic Dylan, when I was first introduced to mountain biking back in 95 I was also introduced to Pedro's ice wax I've used it ever since up until just recently, and now I'm using a brand called momum wax lub and wow what an advancement in wax lubes. I will always use wax lubes. Keep up the good work my friend.
What I would like to know is : dura-ace/XTR chains cost double or more compared to linkglide or 601 chains. I keep track of wear with hot waxed chains for ome years and my conclusin is : best to use 4 cheap chains istead of 2 expensive. I change and rewax the chain after every 300km onroad or 4hours offroad. I'm interested to gear what Adam Kerinn has to say about that.
I love the geekyness of lubes and marginal gains. I see Squirt is still ranked highly. See to remember reading somewhere that the test conditions where to submerge in Squirt (not something most riders will be doing), rather than drip on out of the bottle? Is there any information to confirm how each lube tested was applied?
Super secret is simply the very best with 70 pages of data by this guy to back it up. You have to not wash it but just rub off the dirt and keep applying more to get deep into the chain.
So freakin well done Dylan. Thorough and insightful. Though we need more of the sh!t talking from alternate personality Dylan. I would like a full on debate on bike subjects from those two personas to see who would win :)
Hey Dylan , think a cool video idea would be to see the effect of thermogenesis drinks such as “celcius live fit” on performance or other effects. Thanks for the content
My recumbent trike uses 3 chains linked together to get the length needed. It's a pain to remove it and put it back on again. Using hot wax is not convenient at all.
Silca super secret drip wax is amazing. It dries overnight to a pretty hard wax coat and your chains run smoothly for about 100-200 km like after a hot wax bath. I hot wax every 500km and top it up with Silca super secret. I tried UFO, it makes more of a paste and gets dirtier. Squirt was ok but difficult to get inside the chain. I tried also dynamic drip wax. It dries to a glue like sticky mess. Definitely not fast. I'll be sticking with Silca until Adam tests something that either is way faster or lasts longer.
But 100 to 200 km is only two to three days. Imagine if you had to change the oil in your car every two to three days? Even 1000km between lubes is still only a couple of weeks. Ideally I want an oil that will last for three weeks at a time unless I have been caught by heavy rain. I have found such lubricants. Remember that if the lube runs out the wear rates skyrocket. You cannot just stop by the side of the road, remove the chain, clean it, oil it and reinstall it when this happens. So persistence is more important to me than power efficiency.
My SRAM AXS Red chain lasted 8000km (to 0.75 wear level). I was using Muc Off dry lube most of the time and applied it roughly every whatever number of rides. I must be doing something wrong.
I use plain old candle wax with half a can of WD40 PTFE spray melted in old crock po(slow cooker.) I dont race ,I just like having a clean gold chain that looks pretty, does not get hands filthy during maintenance and roadside repairs and lasts a long time. Gold aint cheap.
I live in Oregon, please do a wet conditions lube. 7mo of the year 4 out of 5 days in rain, commuting, and trail, shy of just replacing the chain 4 times a year
I've had bad experiences with Muck Off. I've cleaned and lubed the day before a big ride and the moment water or dirt touches it my drive train sounds like its going to break. The only lube that's forced me to find a bike shop during a long road ride because my drive train was so screwed after a light rain. Also, anything Stan's brand is awful, do not get their tubeless sealant or tape.
Been using Molten Speed Wax for 1 yr (have 4 chains, which I cycle through after 300-400 km/chain , and wax all at once). Love it. Question for ZFC: Can I apply a product like Silca Super Secret after a day riding in the wet to avoid having to re-wax the used chain? Then do I need to re-apply Silca again each time I ride in the wet (e.g,. I go out in the rain again after applying Silca to the original waxed chain)?
Thanks Dylan for again a great video! I like your channel a lot! I'm from the Netherlands and I use 'CyclOn Course Lube' for a few years now after trying many wax type of lubes and didn't like it. It would be great if the CyclOn wet lube is also tested by zero friction cycling. I'm curious how many watts that will bring.
THANK you Dylan ... once again. Since I am always traveling, I been using Drip Wax. The most readily available from your top 5 has been Squirt (did I see that well that it is in the top 5?). Question (for clarification): are you (or Adam) saying - near the end of the video - that I do not need to clean my chain when I re-apply drip wax every couple of rides? My current routine is to wipe off the chain and jockey wheels every 2 rides, with wet tissue and then with a dry cloth, before reapplying drip wax. Are you suggesting it is NOT necessary to wipe the chain off first ... or even suggesting this may negatively affect the drive train efficiency??? As ever, thank you so much!
I read that you should boil your chain of rinse under boiling water just to get the majority of dirt off before reapplying hot wax. Which is what i have been doing. Is there any downside to putting the chain in a pot of boiling water and swishing it around a bit.
Hey nobalt - only do this post decent wet rides as water will have brought contamination deep into chain. You should dry properly before re waxing. (hair dryer / heat gun for a few mins). If you put a wet chain in wax a lot, you can get poor results and make the wax not so great. Do not do if you just ride in the dry - even offroad - just wipe surface dust off with alcohol or similar spray on microfibre cloth. Dry road riding just re wax. You will never ever track a benefit for doing boiling water rinses post dry rides - so you are wasting time and elec on doing so as a matter of course, and running greater risk of chains wet inside into wax, which will be worse for you over time vs if you didnt do boiling water rinses - so overall more time for a worse result. It is really to be done only after wet rides, and then ensure thoroughly dry before re wax
@@zerofrictioncycling992 awesome and thanks for the reply. I usually leave it for a half day to dry before re waxing but going forward i will just follow your advice. Thanks again.
SILCA did a great video on how to hot wax with heir product from start to finish, they rec an ultrasonic cleaner (the be$t option) but you can also use their (or any other perhaps?) biodegreaser as well to remove all the weird lube the chain manufacturers ship their chains in. th-cam.com/video/m3uSbNjI53Y/w-d-xo.html
So I was intrigued by the idea of separate race & training chains. Assume you would need to treat with same method as you couldn’t really have a waxed race chain but a conventional “oiled” chain (and total drivetrain cleanup etc.). Also seems like a fair amount of quick link replacement’s especially if a Sram chain?
Question: how to clean and prep a chain for re-waxing after extreme conditions. I've been degreasing with the old chain cleaner methods and believe to be getting good results but what do the best results lean towards?
I've waxed on the road for years but find it tricky on the MTB. It seems that the chain needs to be rewaxed every 2 rides or so on the MTB whereas on the road I can go much longer. I get that the MTB is in dirt much more and that is why but the time is prohibitive for me.
Here's my question I've but not seen fully answered: long dirt event and I started with a good immersion wax (silica in my case currently). When I hit that "wall" when the wax level gets too low what's the best lube to top off with? A good liquid wax (like silica super secret) or a good wet lube based (like synergetic)? If allowed to dry the liquid wax is likely better, but what if I add quickly then keep going? And if liquid wax is worse, how much worse as I'd rather not have to degrease after the event.
Josh from Silca says he things lubing is probably worse than not lubing during a dusty event. But the noise decrease may be worth the mental benefit. *of course, that's in disagreement with what's been said here
How long of a dirt event are you talking about? I’ve personally have done several Belgian Waffle Rides (130 miles, 10k elevation) on a waxed chain and it was totally fine.
@@kevinsmidt I think because I'm 1x 12 speed (eagle mullet) my chain gets noisy quicker than typical for a gravel bike, but I find about 100 miles is my limit (more like 70 miles on my XC MTB) before it gets bad (immersion waxed, topped with liquid super secret gets like 30% reduced). BWR SD specifically last year I stopped at a mechanic station about 110 miles in and had them add lube - it was getting disturbedingly loud
@@jeffreythompson6282 interesting. I also run a 12 speed mullet setup for both SD and Utah versions of BWR. I agree it got noisier, but didn’t have any squeaking or metal grinding noises so I figured it was fine.
Does ZFC's test protocol include shifting gears? I suspect the side-loading of the chain during shifts is easier on liquid lubricants than it is for solid ones, and unless the test protocol accounts for that, waxes may not be as good in the real world as in the test. That said I do hotwax (topping up with UFO as needed) and it blows away every other lube I've used before.
The test rotates through gears each interval, but that is just to ensure they last to end of the testing. I think the miss information re side loading and waxes has been put out by a few vids / articles - and its just flat out incorrect. They mistake excess wax being pressed out initiall for all the wax being pressed out somehow. There will be a polished wax surface on side of rollers to inner plate, and inner plate link to outer plate link same as there is for roller bore to inner plate link shoulders ,and innner plate link shoulder bore to pin - which are the main load surfaces. If you are doing say 250w, and you have 3 degree chain line angle - then very roughly you will have a small % of load tranferred from main load surfaces to side of roller and inner plate link, and inner plate link to outer plate. I have no idea why one thinks this will be a problem for the wax coating on those parts, if the main load surfaces under much much higher load have zero issues and record the lowest friction and wear. The reality is the faster your chain lube, the lesser the friction loss penalty for cross chaining. The worse your chain lubricant, the higher the penalty & losses. If you lose more watts into the friction of those side loaded parts sliding, then you have less watts propelling you forwards. If you lose the least friction to those now more loaded parts because they are coated in the same super slippery polished wax coating as the main load parts - you are losing less of your watts to propel you forwards. Over time, just like the wax coating greatly reduces wear of your main load parts, it will reduce lateral wear of chain on the side loaded parts. I really do not understand the thinking behind why chain line angles would be detrimental to wax, aside from people mistaking initial excess being pressed out for the loss of all the wax - which to me is an odd place to arrive at, but that is the only thing i can think of at the moment re where people get this wrong.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Thanks for the detailed response! Yes, I suspected this because a freshly waxed chain initially sheds excess wax, but quickly stops doing so if left in the same gear; but additional wax starts coming off once the drivetrain is put through the gears. I didn't get the idea from watching any vids claiming this, it was an honest question based on my own observations. It's not entirely crazy to think shifting has implications for lubrication, and that the wax that's being shed during shifts could affect performance. Without actually simulating it during a test, any claim one way or the other is just a theory. So I'm happy to hear its part of the test protocol! Too many performance related claims for cycling products are made based on tests with questionable real-world validity. (It's evident from the video and your thorough response that you are very knowledgeable, and to be clear, I was never trying to imply ZFC's tests lacked real-world relevance.) As a side note (and as I'm sure you're well aware), the very fact that bicycles (by and large) use the chain for shifting in an of itself has huge implications for lubrication. Motorcycle chains, which don't have the lateral movement, are lubricated internally and fully sealed and last practically forever.
@@blooptastic All groovy - and apologies sometimes i think my typing comes across harder than it does in my head when im typing it. I think a main point is that overall the lubrication from chain line angle is generally not a major concern. If the main load surfaces of the chain are lubricated, then so will the much much lower loaded parts of the chain - with the exception of cases like water has washed off lubrication from those surfaces a little bit prior to lubrication being completely washed out deepr inside chain. Other than that - if its lubricated, its lubricated - be it solid wax, or wax drip, or wet lube. The side loading of chain line angle - if well lubricated - introduces in most cases 1 to 2w of extra friction. So yes there is sufficient load there to cause a measurable increase in friction losses, however it is still well under main load surfaces, and they have the same lubrication to those parts. It has just come up a few times - and i have seen channels in the past literally fail immersive waxing as good option, claiming the chain had no lubrication, because it was all "squeezed out" when they ran it on chain line angles leaving no wax lubrication behind - something that other testing didnt discover as they only used straight line testing. Aside from this just being rather monumentally incorrect, and now having a lot of people believe something incorrect - they have also obviously missed understanding why immersive wax prepped chains are, and have been for a long time - the chain prep of choice for the most important races amongst world tour teams, olympics / world championships -and this would be an odd thing if there was an issue with running them on a chain line angle which will happen rather quickly...
@@zerofrictioncycling992 oh, certainly no reason to apologize! I enjoyed your detailed and thorough responses. Thanks for taking the time to write them up, and of course for doing all the research in the first place!
Question about chain waxing, is it okay to use regular basic paraffin wax? I come from Europe, and all of the products you mention are either hardly available here, or because of that, the price is way beyond reasonable for most of us.
I've been using paraffin for 3 years at get around 400-600 Km - over 12,000 KM across 3 chains and no appreciable wear. This is on a road bike and I don't ride in the wet.
In my experience using my own paraffin wax + TPFE is significantly better than any non wax product i had used previously but Silca is better than the stuff I mixed myself. I base this on chain life. It's the only thing I can measure. II ride about 12k km per year
Not disputing the cost of some of these premium lubes. But the dramatically decreased wear rates means you are saving yourself money. If you save wearing through just 1 chain per year, you’re ahead financially. I’m at 12000km on each of my waxed chains, and still going. And that’s without even thinking about the reduced wear on cassettes or chainrings.
@@andrewmcalister3462 I have been using food grade paraffin wax on my road bike for about 10 years and get around 20,000km per chain when measured with a Shimano chain checker but rarely ride in wet conditions and I re apply the wax every 100 and 200km. Costs per year are incredibly low for the wax and component replacement.
An unmentioned benefit of hot-wax is the process of removing and reinstalling the chain will end up swapping direction randomly, so both sides of the pins should wear more evenly.
With some chains, they are actually directional (arrow for travel direction, or stampings only on outward face, etc), so this wouldn't necessarily be true, but it's an interesting point anyhow for more generically installed chains.
Hi. I live in a hot part of Australia. Kieran said that wax lube needs to be heated above 80F to fully penetrate the chain. Temperatures are often above 80F when I ride. Is that a problem? Dust and grit could stick in the liquid wax. Does liquid wax lubricate well?
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Dude, from watching all your videos I'm now at negative watts. My bike actually spins my legs.
That happens when you ride a fixie.
are you related to backwards hat Dylan?
@@thegrumpygraveller8820 no I'm much too out of shape to be related to him. Plus I sold my fixie long ago.
+25 watts close drafting. +5 watts fancy wax. +15 watts aero bike. +10 for tires, +10 for deep wheels .. and of curse +50 watts for shaving every hair. I don't even train anymore, I just buy fast things. I won my last race, and I couldn't stop at the finish arc because I was coasting uphill gaining speed.
@@adaycj Buy a recumbent and get a further 80-90 watts ;)
Engineer here, 6:41 bike drive trains are a very very low pressure application, the fact that chainrings can be made out of aluminium and you can use wax which has virtual no lubricant film resilience, would be a little hint ... would have been nice if some commerical grad lubricants were tested! You know that stuff with datasheets, which has to meet industrie standards ...
Never see any data sheets for any of this expensive cycle snake oil. Or independent testing, or peer review, or COSHH info, or anything really 😂
if the chain was in a closed lubrication system, low viscosity oil could be used and the wear and resistance would be the same or less than with wax, but the chain on the bike is exposed to the dust that every oil collects and then you get liquid sandpaper that eats the chain, so the main problem with all oils is that they are liquid and sticky and not lubricating properties
Finally good advice on how to get faster without having to train.
I say hand over the steering wheel to backwards hat Dylan!
I don't do any of the things mentioned in this video. Once a month I wipe the chain with a rag wet with mineral spirits then apply garage door chain lube. Works for me.
Started with full immersion waxing a short while ago, my biggest suprise was how clean the chain actually stays! Normally after a ride i'd degrease the chain and run it throught a cloth, these clothes were black all the time. Now nothing sticks to the metal, less friction, less wear, less of a mess. I can advise this to anyone.
I'm a fan of both of you guys. Thanks for helping spread some facts about bike lube vs the marketing or opinions going around.
My personal experience lines up strongly with what Adam says: 15 minutes of cycling on Muc Off's lube had my chain squeaking louder than a rats nest!
Odd. I've used three different MucOff lubes on mtb and commuter. Cheap and last long enough - never had a creaking issue.
I have no doubt there are better lubes around but I have no care for chasing 5 watts as I don't race.
Muc-Off is only good at one thing, marketing. 😂
Been a long time fan of Dylan. Been a long time fan of Adam. Two together in one video... this is 27mins of legitimate, well-educated and fact-driven bike nerdery dialogue. Bloody love it.
Switched to Silca SS on Adam's paper on the lube. Drivetrain has lasted longer and is way cleaner, even though I was previously using Squirt (which is one of the top performing drip lubes). Would go the full immersive wax route but live in a tiny place with no room for a proper crock pot assembly line.
it's like reading my own comment.
More than a few wax cult members I know of have burned down their house or garage with these cooker contraptions. Be careful!
We did the hot wax submerge back in the BMX days in the early 80s.
STEADY PEDALER bike shop, Riverside California.
I can absolutely support everything Mr. ZFC is saying. Tested and using Rex Black Diamond on my turbo. In the 0-360 watt range it is at least or around 3-5 watt faster than Muc Off hydro, measured with Kickr V5 and P2M NGeco.
MucOff is a marketing "lifestyle" company. Your results are not surprising. I compared the difference between a crank based and trainer based power meter and found the delta was noticeably lower with fancy wax. The results seem to hold for a long time between waxing intervals too.
I switched to super secret wax about a year ago and I love it. I have two chains and once I got used to the different process the time is not an issue at all. The biggest thing I like is how clean the chain stays. I can remove to old chain for rewaxing and my hands don’t get nasty. It’s amazing really. Plus, the new chain is so smooth it just feels faster. Overall I would never consider going back. BUT the one thing that is really annoying with super secret is that it does not like water. So I’m trying silca synergetic this year to see if it is as smooth and clean as the hot wax and to see how it handles getting wet. I imagine I will have two sets of chains going forward. The hot wax chain for dry season and synergetic chain for rainy season. The only other slight complaint for hot wax is the need to keep master links on hand from removing the chain so often. That’s very minor and all in all I would never go back even if I don’t solve the wet conditions issue.
Hi Tommy! You are correct - super secret lifespan in wet is not that long. If it survives the typical length of your training rides then it is handy in that post wet ride it is pretty easily reset with boiling water flush rinses, dry, re apply. It also likes a long set time & double application before known wet ride - which may not fit the plans - but can be handy to know - ie if you looking at a decent wet ride on the weekend, apply ss drip, allow 24hr set, apply another coating, allow 24hr set. This will give notable extra lifespan vs say just one application the night before.
Synergetic is a brilliant option in the wet as it is not easily washed out from inside chain. However - just remember it is impossible for ANY wet & most wax lubricant options to not have a whole lot of abrasive stuff deep inside & part of the lubricant. So unless you solvent flush clean chain post wet ride, you are just adding more lube over the top of that abrasive contamination. Frequent wet riding is balance of lubricant choice that will a) last the duration you need and b) is the easiest for YOU to reset post wet rides. But definitely for some, a synergetic for wet, ss drip for dry can be a great approach.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 thanks for the info. Do you have a video on how to clean and maintain a chain for synergetic lube (or similar)? Most of my “wet” rides would be wet pavement and very rarely a full on rainy day road ride. Do you recommend resetting a chain after any wet ride? I appreciate all your research.
@@tommyt8857 Not a video as such - i do have one somewhere i think showing the litres of solvent it can take to properly re set a dirty wet lube chain - but thats different to regular clean. Mostly it is a balance. Ie for most - it would be not practical or remotely cost effective to fully flush clean until perfect the chain post every wet ride if riding in wet is frequent. However increased friction and wear will definitely bite your cost to run if little cleaning to reset is done. How fastidious you may want to be can really depend on level of groupset and cost - ie if your chain is $150 and cassette $700 and rings are integrated power meter sram axs red at $1500 - i would recommend flush cleaning post wet rides as often as is practical for you. If it is shimano 105 - maybe weekly is going to be fine. but again there are variables - not all water / wet riding is equal. Areas that receive a lot of rain the water can be a lot cleaner. Other areas are near the coast and there can be a not insignificant amount of sand (as far as your chain is concerned) on the road that will be washed in - and that will hurt if it isnt flushed out. So it is still really individual - how much, how long, how often, your power, cost of components, how easy is it for you do to cost effective decent flush clean etc etc - but if you play around and ponder and find what is a good balance for you, that generally goes much better overall vs not playing around with it and just letting friction and wear run away
@kingofcrunk4237 Two little bits of info that may help - 1) it contains tungsten disulfide which is dark, so the wax is dark - excess wax pressed out and then pressed onto sides link plates will look black and 2) there is an interaction between the wax and the coatings used inside chain which causes basically anything to run black - you could put the most clear clean mineral oil on a perfectly cleaned chain, ride for an hour is a level 4 biohazard lab on an ergo, and it will be black from the interaction between the oil and the chains coatings. So even if the wax had no tungsten disulfide and you used perfectly clean food grade paraffin, what comes out of chain to sides of the chain - initial excess will be clear, later wax coming out will be black.
You do not need to ultrasonic clean any more past initial prep. The wax is not dirty in a bad way if you only ride in dry conditions - jut re wax, you will never track a tangible lower friction / wear benefit for your ultrasonic cleaning time vs if you just relaxed and re waxed. If you ride offroad - just wipe surface dust off with an alcohol spray on microfiber cloth to not import surface dust stuck to chain from static elec of chain whizzing through the air into pot, but it is largely just external dust, so you dont need to ultrasonic, unless you just really enjoy ultrasonic.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Oregon Winter--Sounds like Synergetic... Oregon Summer (it doesn't rain) Super Secret.
In this last 12 months, I had my best lasting chain ever. Entry level Shimano 9 speed chain, washed out with petrol and dried, then lubed with Squirt.
Came across Zero Friction Cycling by accident. What a Fortunate accident it was. I learned a lot. Ended up sticking to UFO 2.0 and só far it has been amazing. The clean drivetrain, the smooth operation, the “no noise” ... I mean it is as if there is no chain there. Love it
Wax convert here. Thanks ZFC. I don’t really care about watts. I love it because it is much cleaner and very easy it is to maintain. Much less time than cleaning and re-lubing with a standard wet lube.
For most people it's not the watts, it's the drivetrain lifetime. And the zero friction data are really important. Immersion waxing a chain is not hard once you've got the stuff you need and have done it a few times. Over several years I've found the $$ gained are not marginal.
How to wax 12s chains, the quick links are not reusable?
@@arhu74 Two things. At 1000+ miles between waxings one SRAM 5 pack of links isn't expensive compared to buying drivetrain parts more often. Also, you absolutely can reuse them. Use your phone camera or a lens to magnify and look at the groove interface. You can see when they are bad.
@@adaycj I need to wax way more often due to climate, sometimes after every ride
@@arhu74 I reuse them. I've never had a problem. Granted, I only use them a few times.
@@DaveCM I use the same quick links for years without any problems.
A lot of knowledge! The only bit I don't quite agree with "For a 3-4 hour wet muddy XCM event, start with wax". I've tried this, and the when the wax suddenly wears out, there's not only increased friction, the drivetrain can even fail (chainsuck, failing to change gears etc.). Stopping to re-lube is often not an option, because this means getting dropped from the group. Copious amounts of wet lube seem to be the only option here.
A long time (20 yrs) ago I did a long XC race in wet conditions, Test of Metal in Squamish BC. Rain preceded the days before the race and it was wet and rainy day-of. Tantalus Bikes suggested the Pedro's SynLube Wet Conditions. It went on like molasses but my drivetrain worked perfectly. The mud/muck there is more big-grain and not clay-like, but it still wants to stick to your bike.
I've used wax process (dunked chain, melted wax) on my road chain, probably 30 yrs ago. Found it annoying as a process, but in constant dry conditions it was smooth and quiet for a surprisingly long time.
I used to use Rock & Roll Gold, which was pretty good because I applied it every ride and each application cleans too. I tried one of the Muc Off products and the chain got noisy after 15 miles. A local shop recommended some terrible stuff that was thick, sticky, and the worst. Now I’ve got Super Secret on my road & XC bike and Synergetic on my winter bike. I’m most impressed with how long Synergetic lasts. No more daily chain lubing!
I love, love, love R&R GOLD. Absolutely the best here in SoCal
@@jeremysweeten2792 - Agreed. If you apply every ride it’s great! Very clean and quiet. But I’m blown away by the Silca products now. Their oil based lube lasts for many rides.
Every ride!? Ain't no body got time for that! .... having said that, it does make sense, as my chain squeals like I washed it with rusty water after just two rides with R&R Gold when on dusty trails. Just wondering if you should fully degrease after every ride too?
@@ljadf - No need to degrease. The cool thing about R&R Gold is that you flood the chain, and that cleans it out. Then you crank it to get it to penetrate. Finally, wipe it down to get the crud off and dry it so it doesn’t attract more crud. Applying it is quick because you just squirt crank. No need to go link by link from the master link. Wiping and drying is the time consuming part. It never gets perfectly clean, so if you have OCD, it could take a while. I just made it part of my pre-ride ritual and didn’t worry about perfect cleanliness. Great longevity of my chain doing that!
If you don’t want that much work, Synergetic is perfect. I handles ride after ride. Perfect for wet riding.
Super Secret lasts reasonably well too, but it gets noisy more quickly. The good news is that it wipes down clean. The bad news is that you should apply it well before riding, if not the day before. It’s harder for me to get a post ride ritual!
@@jeremysweeten2792 Its good stuff... and inexpensive so you can really flush out the chain with it. BUT... must apply at least half a day before riding. Put it on then go immediately and the carrier fluid hasn’t dried out yet and its gonna cost you nearly 10 watts.
Nerd-tastic stuff. Been using squirt now for a long time and happy. I warm it a little before applying to aid penetration. Keeps things quiet and chain relatively clean, even on the MTB. Now that I know it's up there with the best, it's a bonus. One comment on the hot wax method in the video - not cleaning the chain (even wiping it) before dipping it into the new wax is silly. any contaminants released during the new dip, go into the fresh melted wax and will build up over time. Wipe a paper towel over a well-used waxed chain that's in need of re-waxing, it aint spotless.
Hey peter! Mostly correct there depending on riding. If it is a dry road ride, being solid - there is SO LITTLE contamination that just re wax is the way to go, you would need the resources of CERN to detect a difference from any cleaning intervention first. The black you see on the side of plates is just friction modifier stuff in the wax (moly or ws2) - it isnt collected abrasive contamination.
Off road rides one should absolutel wipe chain with a cloth to remove surface dust that will stick to surface of chain from static elec of chain whizzing through the air, same as dust sticks to frame and you didnt lube frame. However, even if one never did this, re waxing will remain much lower friction for much longer as it takes a long time for abrasive contamination in the pot to approach anything remotely like what happens with drip lubing.
Most lubricants - especially most wax lubricants - you will apply about 3ml to chain per application. Your chain will be over 100 links long - so that is 0.03ml per link of new lube going over the top of old lube which will have X level of contamination mixed in. Many wax drip lubricants, at least half of that amount is carrier, so less than 0.015ml of new lubricant per link. Over time the ratio of contamination to lubrication will continue to get worse as there is just such small overall amount of new lubricant coming in.
Vs immersive waxing, chain is going into a bath of circa 500ml of 100% lubricant. Yes over time the contamination will build up in the pot - but it takes a very long time for this to remotely approach what is happening in a drip lubricant chain - most especially for road riders. So really, one can just relax and re wax and enjoy the great flush clean and contamination reset every time that this method brings
@@zerofrictioncycling992 I ride in ireland, mostly country roads so that should be noted. I also base most of my 'wax' experience with Squirt which isn't a proper wax.
Sadly, I’m pretty sure I’m slowing my chain lube down.
LOL, Me too!
I use Silca’s SYNERGETIC on my track bikes & road bikes and it’s awesome. Silent, buttery smooth and feels fast. Easy to clean & maintain and affordable. No Brainer for me. Hot Wax is barely 2w faster so that’ll suffice
25 bucks for 60ml - you must be kidding me
@@climatechangedoesntbargain9140 lasts for more than a year
Josh at Silca has suggested as a strategy for long events with terrible conditions is to start with a waxed chain and re-lube at a pit stop with a high end wet lube like synergetic. But either way, it's a tough call.
Extra Virgin Olive Oil @10:20 !!! Top five. Fantastic. And not a chemical in sight
is impressive to see an 5w-20 motor oil is on 5.5, 6 watts low ratio. as wet lube was an insane price x peformance lost only by standard wax.
so my good experiences with 2t motul 800 is confirmed, and as an ester type oil maybe is interesting to see an ZFC test with them because ester has magnetic proprieties.
Thank you for this video, it was probably one of the most informative bike tech videos Ive watched in quite a while. I had been using Muc Off for the last two years and was surprised that I had to replace my chain so soon. I am switching to some new lubricants after this video and not buying Muc Off probably ever again.
Great stuff, Zero Friction, Adam loves his details be warned.... he will make your cycling way better though. I changed to the lubricants he recommends and it has made that piece of maintenance way easier, and cleaner and my drivetrain last so much longer. Looking forward to part 2
1:25. I need one of those machines to get me to level 60 on zwift by tomorrow.
Thank you for the real conversation. I just have to say that I appreciate that you both have not fallen for the MucOff marketing engine. If they spent half as much on product development as they do on influencing people we would all be better off.
I share your thoughts. I will cover this in a vid soon i think, but i definitely have concerns re the sales / marketing model of the likes of Muc-Off. Firstly they obviously have an ENORMOUS marketing machine, which costs big $$$. And they offer retailers industry leading margins , which is why it is so prevalent. It is extremely clever - from a marketing strategy perspective. A rep goes to visit an LBS - shows them their amazing testing, R&D, work with top world tour team & athletes. LBS owner has zero reason to doubt such NASA level work behind lubricant. Then they see the margins they can make vs other lubricants - AND in some countries they appear to offer 70% margin on ALL muc off if they stock exclusively muc off. So LBS owner thinks it is a win win, great product for customers, great margins for them.
But for M-O to sell products (often through an importer for that country) at such a low price such that muc-off make enough money to pay for this monster machine - AFTER the importer has made a viable cut, and the retailer has made a great margin - what do you think the actual production cost of the products are.....
I would hazard a guess that like their industry leading margins for retailers, they have industry leading lowest cost to produce. And so IF i am correct, we can follow a bouncing ball that we have a very low cost product, delivering what appear to be really poor results - which is a bit of a match. However if the retailers make great margin for products that have huge marketing by muc-off to drive sales for the LBS - well we see why so many LBS have massive muc-off stands, whilst other amazing products & manufacturers struggle to get a spot on shelves and penetration. It is a great competition lock out strategy by Muc off, and overall just a very clever and well executed sales & marketing strategy overall. But at what cost to cyclists?
I sure have some work to do to try to make any impact in the above. I am going to need a lot of help by a lot of cyclists around the world sharing proper knowledge with their cycling friends - One day i hope M-O are forced to actually make a very low wear lubricant option!!
I'm glad to see my personal experiences with Muc Off validated here. My wear rate with Hydro Dynamic was shockingly bad. I'm talking 300-400 miles maximum on a Dura Ace chain in 100% dry riding conditions.
I am a fan of dumond tech. what I understand, it is a liquid plastic that bonds and coats the chain like a wax. its very clean, and I have had great luck with chain wear, my current mtb chain (xtr) has lasted over 2,000 miles. Not sure about the watts, but it smells nice so thats a plus.
Very interested to know why Absolute Black Graphen dude didn't get talked about???
I bought a new chain and degreased with UFO Clean (also cleaned cassette and chain rings). Links felt very free after that. Then did Silca Hot wax, and rode on the trainer for 1.5 hours (wax shavings all over the towel under the bike). Checked for link mobility after the ride and they still feel pretty stiff. Hot wax definitely doesn't seem less friction than my old Rock&Roll Gold right now....
With the UV light, I use it to make sure I've removed the outside lube. Family had bought it for me, but based on this I'll swap to something else.
I wax my Connex Wipperman chain on my Shimano road bike drive train. No tools required to take the chain on and off your bike when waxing. Has a unique connecting link. Makes waxing easy.
Are you going to look into the difference between high quality ceramic bearings versus high quality steel bearings? Hambini Engineering stated that a high quality steel bearing can be faster than a high quality ceramic bearing, and much cheaper. He was also saying that over a short period of time ceramic bearings wear and get even slower than their steel counterparts. Everyone seems to believe that ceramic are faster but Hambini had some good points and actually showed some comparative data that was compelling. Is everyone blindly believing the marketing hype around ceramic or is there actually something there?
ZFC actually already have a paper on that from a while back, I only looked at it today though. I had previously watched the same Hambini video you mention. I think the price of Ceramic bearings are beyond my performance needs, but very interesting to read the paper by ZFC and given the approach ZFC take to data and openness, worth a read.
@@funfriends609 Thank you for letting me know, I'll check it out.
I have been using Squirt chain lube for a few years now. I am quite anal of keeping my chain meticulately clean and quiet. I wipe the chain down lightly after every ride. At least once a month I strip the chain clean and apply a fresh coat. My chains last at least 5000 miles, and my last one lasted over 7500 miles before the chain checker read .75. I ride over 10000 miles a year and am very conscientious of keeping my bike clean and functioning properly. When I clean my cassette and my jockey wheels. I take the the wheels off and clean then till when I wipe them, the cloth is clean. It takes more time, but for me it is what works. I guess it is the Marine in me that I pay lot of attention to detail.
Thanks very much for this Dylan. I went and checked out ZFC and had a few things confirmed that I was pretty sure about, especially the bollocks about factory grease (something that comes up, All. The. Fucking. Time.).
I've been using Rock 'n Roll for a while, not going to go to how wax, truly can't be bothered, but I see why it looks pretty awesome.
Great video. A year ago I´ve switched to a Rex and I´m happy about it :)
can you have Adam back to talk about single- vs double chainring drive trains.
i already know the answer, but i just love hearing it
Do you really know the answer? I thought it was Classified;)
th-cam.com/video/EUBGKbuifmU/w-d-xo.html
I don't like having even more quantifiable proof that I'm making bad decisions
I've been using "Super Slick Stuff" spray for many years as my weekly clean up and Blaster Synthetic lube for my monthly deep clean and lube.
Oh wow I only ride an old 3x7 mountain bike in dry, urban conditions but I've be using 3in1 oil! Keeping my drivetrain clean admittedly, but I've been doing the wrong thing! getting some wax based lube immediately!
the amount of time saved in cleaning or better said lack of cleaning needed with hot wax is crazy
Shhhh don’t tell my wife it takes 4 min to wax a chain. I lock myself in the shed for 4 hrs to do it. It’s my therapy time!
LOL 😅
I was so hoping he outlined the initial cleaning process of the chain. I like using a good degreaser, thenZylene solvent to remove any remaining coatings. However this is a really really harsh cleaning. I also do 2 or 3 chains at a time in the immersive wax method. I still only get about 250 miles per chain before I need to relax them, which I can easily get in one week....it's a hassle for sure.
I find it much more reasonable to maintain my waxed chain then when I originally took on the process in 1974.
And no I have not run waxed chains all these years, regrettably.
Best lube ive ever used is Tru Tension All Weather lube, the Tungston Disulphide in it is brilliant at ultra low chain wear.
This is gold !! Love this type of content.
Hello Dylan, I am using hot melt wax for a year, not Silca one, just clear wax. After few rewaxing process I experienced pretty bad contamination in wax itself even though I cleaned my chains before every bath. This kind of contamination is not visible in Silca wax because it is grey from the beginning. Do you ever thinking obout something like that? As I understand, from video, there is no cleaning need which should make my experience even worst. Thank you for comment. Pavel.
pour that dirty wax into a tall, narrow tin container, which contained deodorant, and place it in a larger container containing, for example, old motor oil, which you heat so much that the wax completely melts. that oil serves to keep the wax liquid as long as possible, so that the impurities settle out, when the wax hardens, cut open the can and take the wax out. the lower part where the impurities are cut off with a knife
@@makantahi3731 Thank you very much for great advice, during upcoming winter I will mess around bikes a lot so I will definitely try it :)
I dont race, but I've been using finish line for years. In 10,000 miles I had 2 chains and the same chainrings and cassette. I did clean my chain after almost every ride. I will now buy a better product.
I’ve been running the SILCA molten wax and it lasts longer than the candle wax I used previously. One thing I learned is letting the wax cool to just starting to form a film and then removing the chain. Theory is less wax drips out the inner parts of the chain.
In practice the moment you apply some power through the pedals it quickly squeezes out the excess wax. Basically you're wasting more wax, because forces are far too great to leave anything more than thin layer on the contact surfaces. Silca wax user myself, I know they present this method in instructional videos, but it's just not optimal. Bigger mess on your frame, longer break-in time when freshly waxed. Check Adam's video on it.
You can make your own chain link "squeezer" with nedle nose players , CUT a notch. < > So in plyer. If using screw type chain brake , try the hi side of pin , not the flush side, so you'll be pushing pin out the way it was put in. " DONT push pin out ALL THE WAY " .
From good to bad is about 3W at 250W input = 1.2% or almost 45 seconds per hour. Definitely going to use the best on race day.
The speed gained isn't linear. The difference is more like 1.5 seconds per hour. The actual difference is very small.
@@OUTDOORS55 oh. 🙁
23:25 "hot melt waxing is probably the most time intensive way to lubricate your chain..."
Is it though? Remove chain, drip it into dedicated pot of wax, place in Instant Pot on "saute" setting for 10 minutes. Let cool, reinstall chain.
Compared to the amount of time I spent cleaning and oiling my chain in the past, waxing is solo much less work, for longer lasting results.
Very glad you did this with Adam. I've watched every second of his videos, many of them multiple times and I've learned so much. I also switched to Silca Hot Melt immersive wax from Squirt lube because of ZFC and it's been fantastic. It's actually so much easier and faster than I thought it was going to be, especially for the results. Adam also recommended Silca Synergetic for indoor training and again, he was dead on. Hope you do more with him.
Thanks for sharing your experiences. Since I am currently using Squirt can you please share your thoughts on your perceived advantages of switching to the hot melt wax please? When I use Squirt I submerge the bottle into a cup of hot water and have found that it penetrates well although I feel that it does not last very long. Thanks :)
@@vietnguyen4312 Hey Viet. Absolutely. Please remember that I'm just one person and other people may experience something different. When I started using Squirt around 20 years ago, it was the best lube on the market. Hands down. I used it on both my road and MTB. It worked great for a very long time. My biggest, and really only, complaint was that it just got gummed up after only 1 or 2 reapplications and it really didn't seem to self-clean like so many wax based lubes claim to do. In the last year, as I started learning more about chain lubrication from Zero Friction Cycling (ZFC). Adam said that Squirt was still a decent lube but it did have trouble getting into the rollers and deeper parts of the chain. And I can confirm that as well. Adam did say in one of his videos that the only way he'd recommend using Squirt was to fully immerse the chain, and that's exactly what you're doing. However, if you're already taking off your chain and immersing it, you really should be using hot melt wax. The chain stays unbelievably clean (seriously), smooth, and quiet. And I only have to spray a little isopropyl alcohol on a rag a wipe it down after ever ride to keep it that way. It really is amazing. And I have pretty much zero chain wear. I thought waxing was only for racers and was a huge hassle. I was very, very wrong. It's about as easy as it gets and I don't have to deal with degreasing and washing the chain ever again. It's a win win win. Just watch the Zero Friction Cycling channel. You'll get it. As for which wax to use, any of ZFC's top rated hot melt waxes will do but I love Silca as a company and Josh Portner is a genius and seems like a genuinely great person so it's Silca's hot melt wax for me. Hope that helps and best of luck.
@@vietnguyen4312 Hi Viet! In short the main (but huge) advantages of immersive waxing is that every rewax resets any contamination that started to build. With a drip lubricant, contamination will build over time until you flush clean it again, and then some lubricants - like squirt - require a bit of faff post clean to ensure penetration. After every re wax, all parts of the chain are simply re coated in a super slippery wax. You dont have to do any cleaning of chain or drivetrain - just re wax. Aside from remaining day in day out lowest friction and wear, everything also remains lovely and clean - every time chain comes out of the pot it looks brand new, but you have had to do any cleaning, just popped it into a pot and turned the pot on and swished it when wax melted.
Typically the benefits of immersive waxing vs drip lubricants will either be very obvious and a cyclist as soon as become aware of it cannot wait to switch. Others - it just doesn''t click that it would be worth it for them, and so best to stick with a top drip lubricant option that matches your riding. Immersive waxing is not for everyone, just that for those whom it is for, it is a really happy time all the time forever and ever amen. Extremely pleasing friction / wear & cleanliness results can be attained without too much more hassle with top drip lubricants - one just needs to do a bit of the correct periodic maintenance for that lubricant.
And remember - now also becoming quite popular amongst those for whom immersive waxing every time is not for them - using with an immersive wax compatible lubricant is the perfect middle ground - wax - use SS drip / UFO drip / Tru tension tungsten all weather for next 3 to 5 applications - then re wax again to reset any contamination that has started to build - no cleaned before waxing is needed with those options. This really takes the pressure of for many vs re waxing every time, and delivers still the majority of the friction, wear and cleanliness savings of immersive waxing.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Thank you very much. You advice is excellent. I have just purchased some UFO drip and love your second idea. Thanks again. Enjoy
@@CatManDoSocial Thank you for your informative response. I think I will give the hot melt wax a go.
I only ride on well paved roads, and rarely get caught in the rain. I've been using WL Clean Ride since it came out. I noticed that you'll lose an additional 3 watts over the "best" lubes, but I use it because my chains and cassettes last a crazy long time. I'll check my chains for elongation with one of those chain checkers, and then with an accurate 12" rule to make sure. I'll always get 12,000 to 15,000 miles out of a chain, and find my cassettes last through 3 chains, or longer. Back in the 80's, cogs would tend to wear out much quicker than today. I remember having to replace the 16 tooth cog on 7 speed freewheels every year. I've never had to replace the big ring on a crank, even when using that ring 98% of the time.
Thanks Dylan great info. Just thought I would share one more step that I take when I use the commercial wax lubes (I use Squirt?) To enable the wax lube to penetrate into the chain easily I put the bottle of wax lube in a cup of hot water to allow the lubricant to become more watery. Then when I apply the wax to the chain the lube is very running so I assume it gets right into those tight spots whereas a colder wax lube may not penetrate as well? I will try some of the other brands that Adam recommended.
I do a very similar thing. I run Smoove. I keep it in hot water. Clean my chain with a degreaser and a clip on cleaner. I then rinse the chain thoroughly. Probably two 2l kettles worth of boiling water. Dry the chain. Then in big ring big cog I apply the smoove, two revolutions of the chain and I just keep hand cranking for a good five mins. Then I allow to dry for 5 mins before making another repeat application. And then I allow to dry overnight
@@alastairstedman7840 Hi guys - yes this does help, but viscosity is strangely not all there is too penetration. Some wax lubricants tested have been very thin, but still had notable penetration issues. A bunch of complex stuff really determines if the wax can get past the very narrow gap between inner plate link shoulders to get to the pin or not. Lower viscosity really does help for those lubricants, but it doesnt solve the issue - it just lessens it a bit.
Best practice is to apply to a warmed lube AND WARM CHAIN (if chain is cool, the 0.1ml hitting the link will instantly cool to the chain temp, so it doesnt matter if you warmed the lube if the chain is cool, the lube will be same temp as the chain in about 0.5 of a second). If applying at 20dg + room temp, dont worry. if your room / shed is cold - then absolutely warming the chain is needed or there is just no point warming the lube.
Apply initially on max chain line angle - BEFORE the cassette. This has the link parts opened up as much as possible where you are applying, but they will straighten up again when they run over the cog. This provides a bit of a pumping action for the lubricant and gives it best chance of getting through the inner plate link gap.
After this, run chain for a about 10 runs around drive train in smallest cog for max link articulation, wipe any excess thoroughly ,and allow any specified set time as a MINIMUM. Many drip wax lubricants can see a notable lifespan increase if this repeated - ie if you had a very long hard ride coming up - do the above, allow 24hr set, and repeat with a 24hr set before the big ride.
White lightning clean ride (blue bottle)is my favorite I’ve tried and own them all
White lightning clean ride soaks in deep very quickly and keeps the chain clean!
It gets a lot of hate in Europe, because of the green fans
All wet lubes soak deep in chain as the chain is not water proof. By what mechanism does clean ride keep your chain clean? I havent tested it as WL honestly are pretty shocking.... (in my opinion based on a fair bit of focus in this space) and so they are not on my priority list to test at all, im not really here to spend a lot of time proving lubricants are bad vs what lubricants are the genuine top options. At the end of the day if you are happy, then for sure stay happy and dont let anyone tell you otherwise, including me. However, i have an extremely strong feeling that if you are happy with a WL product, trying a proven top product like synergetic, revolubes, rex black diamond (which is black but... amazing re performance) will have you doing cartwheels
@@zerofrictioncycling992
White lightning clean ride is a “wax Lube”
May not be as slick as some others , but boy I’ll tell you what, it gets inside the chain
@@XCRiders yes it wont have penetration issues as it is very thin - it is mostly carrier, not a lot of lubrication is left behind. Whilst not overly expensive per bottle, to maintain some hopefully effective lubrication you need to apply it a lot - lubricant cost adds up quickly vs many other options where a bottle lasts a lot lot longer.
Again if you are happy with it, thats cool - but the odds that it will remotely compete with the proven top products is just incredibly low. It is very old tech - so it is a bit like an i-phone 1 vs an i-phone 14, and that is being really generous - and yes enviro wise it is pretty nasty stuff. So overall you would undoubtedly be able to choose a different product that costs you less re usage, gives you lower wear, and will be much more enviro + home toxicity friendly. I understand if you have been really happy with a product for a long time, and are still really happy with it that you want to defend it in the face of it being criticized vs modern proven stuff - however - i would say that until you have tried some of the top 10 tested stuff, you just wont really know if what you are defending should be defended. One large local bike store stopped stocking WL clean ride and epic ride a few years ago due to never ending complaints from customers, and they tried it themselves, were of the opinion that clean ride needed to be re lubed with a large amount every 100km to keep chain effectively lubed - and so even though they are super happy to sell the likes of muc-off and finish line and the wear life problems that come with those (in mine and others opinion....) - even they could not abide stocking white lightning products.
So from friction facts testing, to jason smith following on from that, to josh poertners knowledge of lubricants, to mine based on A LOT of testing + workshop, to even a major bike store who was happy to stock basically anything but had to give up on stocking WL , to it being very old tech that it is hard to say was competitive 15 yrs ago vs now, to the eviro credentials - the case against i would say is pretty strong, the case for is relying on some die hard legacy customers and just long term brand name recognition. And bike stores that really like fast parts wear rates to try to get more sales of chains, cassettes and chain rings. But again - in all honesty, if you are happy - stay happy - i will rest my case here and you can ignore all silly input from me :)
Buy a small induction hot plate and a small cast iron pot. Heat the wax to the desired temperature takes less than a minute
Do a video on cold plunging and sauna benefits/negatives for cardio endurance athletes
I'm not a professional or competitive cyclist what so ever so I don't think its been a huge issue for me, but I don't seem to have the best talent when it comes to choosing lubes. For a long time I used Epic Ride. I most recently switched to Finish Line Dry. I also have a 2oz bottle of Muc Off Dry that I leave in my bag just for emergency (I randomly bought it just to get me over a free shipping threshold a while ago) but I haven't really used it. I am low on my finish line and was lookup up whether I should get the bulk 32oz and be set for years or what other options are out there. I'm not going the hot melt route, but I ordered Squirt and going to give that a go. Should at least be an upgrade from what I have been using.
If you enjoyed this video even half as much as I did welcome to the super duper bicycle nerd club😆
I’m with BWHD. So much hoopla to save 1/4 watt
This is a great interview and a great man that was the first one got deep deep inside one of the most exiting issues of the bicycles world and the addicted bikers. Many thanks for that!
I wish to add my small point:
The most experimented subject here was the ability of the lube to keep low abrasion.
I must say that for keeping the chain lubed and working and shifting smooth, in a long day lets say for 6-8 hours of riding , wet or dry conditions, i still find the heavy wet lubes to be the best! Yes you will have to degrease the chain after riding and lube again, and yes the abrasion will be high,
And the steel will be eaten more then wax.
But your chain will be still smooth and shifting.
I'm not sure I fully understand some of his comments. The chart at 9:54 shows that Rock-n-Roll extreme did very well in the watts test, but it is marketed as an MTB specific lube.
Great info for sporty bikes which usually get lots of maintenance and attention. I am wondering if these products are also good for utility bikes which gets used a lot but dont get serviced to often and also get used in harsh conditions.
Ok if I can be a bit of a rookie with the bike maintenance process. I have a new chain on my bike. He says I need to clean the lubricants off that it came with. So I scrub it. down with a brush and soap. Then I get one the good drip lubes like synergetic and apply it. Say I give my bike a good cleaning once a week, do I have to reapply chain lube every time, or does it last longer than what I am used to. Thanks for the information.
Never, ever, remove factory grease from a new chain. Ever. Just fit it, then oil with standard cheap bike oil as needed. Never, ever put it away wet either. Dry it with a rag, then oil it. Every time. A chain brush is a useful item too, £5 on amazon or ebay. There is no need for expensive lubricants, but there is a need for regular inspection & maintenance.
With the internal hub gear technology improvement like Classified hub, maybe the best unbound lube would be no chain, a carbon belt drive and all shifts happening inside the hub🤷🏻?
Great topic Dylan, when I was first introduced to mountain biking back in 95 I was also introduced to Pedro's ice wax I've used it ever since up until just recently, and now I'm using a brand called momum wax lub and wow what an advancement in wax lubes. I will always use wax lubes. Keep up the good work my friend.
What I would like to know is : dura-ace/XTR chains cost double or more compared to linkglide or 601 chains. I keep track of wear with hot waxed chains for ome years and my conclusin is : best to use 4 cheap chains istead of 2 expensive. I change and rewax the chain after every 300km onroad or 4hours offroad. I'm interested to gear what Adam Kerinn has to say about that.
I love the geekyness of lubes and marginal gains. I see Squirt is still ranked highly. See to remember reading somewhere that the test conditions where to submerge in Squirt (not something most riders will be doing), rather than drip on out of the bottle?
Is there any information to confirm how each lube tested was applied?
Super secret is simply the very best with 70 pages of data by this guy to back it up. You have to not wash it but just rub off the dirt and keep applying more to get deep into the chain.
So freakin well done Dylan. Thorough and insightful. Though we need more of the sh!t talking from alternate personality Dylan. I would like a full on debate on bike subjects from those two personas to see who would win :)
Hey Dylan , think a cool video idea would be to see the effect of thermogenesis drinks such as “celcius live fit” on performance or other effects. Thanks for the content
Wut?
My recumbent trike uses 3 chains linked together to get the length needed. It's a pain to remove it and put it back on again.
Using hot wax is not convenient at all.
Silca super secret drip wax is amazing. It dries overnight to a pretty hard wax coat and your chains run smoothly for about 100-200 km like after a hot wax bath. I hot wax every 500km and top it up with Silca super secret. I tried UFO, it makes more of a paste and gets dirtier. Squirt was ok but difficult to get inside the chain. I tried also dynamic drip wax. It dries to a glue like sticky mess. Definitely not fast. I'll be sticking with Silca until Adam tests something that either is way faster or lasts longer.
But 100 to 200 km is only two to three days. Imagine if you had to change the oil in your car every two to three days? Even 1000km between lubes is still only a couple of weeks. Ideally I want an oil that will last for three weeks at a time unless I have been caught by heavy rain. I have found such lubricants. Remember that if the lube runs out the wear rates skyrocket. You cannot just stop by the side of the road, remove the chain, clean it, oil it and reinstall it when this happens. So persistence is more important to me than power efficiency.
My SRAM AXS Red chain lasted 8000km (to 0.75 wear level). I was using Muc Off dry lube most of the time and applied it roughly every whatever number of rides.
I must be doing something wrong.
My Ultegra chains are still in good condition after 7-8000KM using Muck Off C3 Cerramic.
One of the charts had extra virgin olive oil!? It's number wasn't horrible. It makes me wonder about other oils, particularly solid ones like coconut.
I use plain old candle wax with half a can of WD40 PTFE spray melted in old crock po(slow cooker.) I dont race ,I just like having a clean gold chain that looks pretty, does not get hands filthy during maintenance and roadside repairs and lasts a long time. Gold aint cheap.
I live in Oregon, please do a wet conditions lube. 7mo of the year 4 out of 5 days in rain, commuting, and trail, shy of just replacing the chain 4 times a year
I've had bad experiences with Muck Off. I've cleaned and lubed the day before a big ride and the moment water or dirt touches it my drive train sounds like its going to break. The only lube that's forced me to find a bike shop during a long road ride because my drive train was so screwed after a light rain. Also, anything Stan's brand is awful, do not get their tubeless sealant or tape.
Been using Molten Speed Wax for 1 yr (have 4 chains, which I cycle through after 300-400 km/chain , and wax all at once). Love it.
Question for ZFC: Can I apply a product like Silca Super Secret after a day riding in the wet to avoid having to re-wax the used chain? Then do I need to re-apply Silca again each time I ride in the wet (e.g,. I go out in the rain again after applying Silca to the original waxed chain)?
They have this explained in their website Wax FAQ
How often to apply a non-emersive wax when on the trainer?
I used gt85 racing in the 1990s, never realised it was one of the worst, I applied it before every ride though
Thanks Dylan for again a great video! I like your channel a lot!
I'm from the Netherlands and I use 'CyclOn Course Lube' for a few years now after trying many wax type of lubes and didn't like it. It would be great if the CyclOn wet lube is also tested by zero friction cycling. I'm curious how many watts that will bring.
THANK you Dylan ... once again.
Since I am always traveling, I been using Drip Wax. The most readily available from your top 5 has been Squirt (did I see that well that it is in the top 5?).
Question (for clarification): are you (or Adam) saying - near the end of the video - that I do not need to clean my chain when I re-apply drip wax every couple of rides?
My current routine is to wipe off the chain and jockey wheels every 2 rides, with wet tissue and then with a dry cloth, before reapplying drip wax.
Are you suggesting it is NOT necessary to wipe the chain off first ...
or even suggesting this may negatively affect the drive train efficiency???
As ever, thank you so much!
What is the best chain wear gauge? You get such different readings from different gauges. Which one is most accurate?
I read that you should boil your chain of rinse under boiling water just to get the majority of dirt off before reapplying hot wax. Which is what i have been doing. Is there any downside to putting the chain in a pot of boiling water and swishing it around a bit.
Hey nobalt - only do this post decent wet rides as water will have brought contamination deep into chain. You should dry properly before re waxing. (hair dryer / heat gun for a few mins). If you put a wet chain in wax a lot, you can get poor results and make the wax not so great.
Do not do if you just ride in the dry - even offroad - just wipe surface dust off with alcohol or similar spray on microfibre cloth. Dry road riding just re wax. You will never ever track a benefit for doing boiling water rinses post dry rides - so you are wasting time and elec on doing so as a matter of course, and running greater risk of chains wet inside into wax, which will be worse for you over time vs if you didnt do boiling water rinses - so overall more time for a worse result. It is really to be done only after wet rides, and then ensure thoroughly dry before re wax
@@zerofrictioncycling992 awesome and thanks for the reply. I usually leave it for a half day to dry before re waxing but going forward i will just follow your advice. Thanks again.
Be great if we could have a video on which degreaser to use? Or just a short section if it is straightforward.
SILCA did a great video on how to hot wax with heir product from start to finish, they rec an ultrasonic cleaner (the be$t option) but you can also use their (or any other perhaps?) biodegreaser as well to remove all the weird lube the chain manufacturers ship their chains in. th-cam.com/video/m3uSbNjI53Y/w-d-xo.html
for oil based lubes ZFF has always recommend multiple turpentine oil baths, then once with mineral spirit
So I was intrigued by the idea of separate race & training chains. Assume you would need to treat with same method as you couldn’t really have a waxed race chain but a conventional “oiled” chain (and total drivetrain cleanup etc.). Also seems like a fair amount of quick link replacement’s especially if a Sram chain?
Question: how to clean and prep a chain for re-waxing after extreme conditions. I've been degreasing with the old chain cleaner methods and believe to be getting good results but what do the best results lean towards?
If I hot wax / drip my chain, do I need to use a new quick link every time I pop off my chain?
I've waxed on the road for years but find it tricky on the MTB. It seems that the chain needs to be rewaxed every 2 rides or so on the MTB whereas on the road I can go much longer. I get that the MTB is in dirt much more and that is why but the time is prohibitive for me.
Here's my question I've but not seen fully answered: long dirt event and I started with a good immersion wax (silica in my case currently). When I hit that "wall" when the wax level gets too low what's the best lube to top off with? A good liquid wax (like silica super secret) or a good wet lube based (like synergetic)? If allowed to dry the liquid wax is likely better, but what if I add quickly then keep going? And if liquid wax is worse, how much worse as I'd rather not have to degrease after the event.
Josh from Silca says he things lubing is probably worse than not lubing during a dusty event. But the noise decrease may be worth the mental benefit.
*of course, that's in disagreement with what's been said here
Synergetic. Super secret takes hours to settle and work.
How long of a dirt event are you talking about? I’ve personally have done several Belgian Waffle Rides (130 miles, 10k elevation) on a waxed chain and it was totally fine.
@@kevinsmidt I think because I'm 1x 12 speed (eagle mullet) my chain gets noisy quicker than typical for a gravel bike, but I find about 100 miles is my limit (more like 70 miles on my XC MTB) before it gets bad (immersion waxed, topped with liquid super secret gets like 30% reduced). BWR SD specifically last year I stopped at a mechanic station about 110 miles in and had them add lube - it was getting disturbedingly loud
@@jeffreythompson6282 interesting. I also run a 12 speed mullet setup for both SD and Utah versions of BWR. I agree it got noisier, but didn’t have any squeaking or metal grinding noises so I figured it was fine.
Does ZFC's test protocol include shifting gears? I suspect the side-loading of the chain during shifts is easier on liquid lubricants than it is for solid ones, and unless the test protocol accounts for that, waxes may not be as good in the real world as in the test.
That said I do hotwax (topping up with UFO as needed) and it blows away every other lube I've used before.
The test rotates through gears each interval, but that is just to ensure they last to end of the testing. I think the miss information re side loading and waxes has been put out by a few vids / articles - and its just flat out incorrect. They mistake excess wax being pressed out initiall for all the wax being pressed out somehow. There will be a polished wax surface on side of rollers to inner plate, and inner plate link to outer plate link same as there is for roller bore to inner plate link shoulders ,and innner plate link shoulder bore to pin - which are the main load surfaces.
If you are doing say 250w, and you have 3 degree chain line angle - then very roughly you will have a small % of load tranferred from main load surfaces to side of roller and inner plate link, and inner plate link to outer plate. I have no idea why one thinks this will be a problem for the wax coating on those parts, if the main load surfaces under much much higher load have zero issues and record the lowest friction and wear.
The reality is the faster your chain lube, the lesser the friction loss penalty for cross chaining. The worse your chain lubricant, the higher the penalty & losses. If you lose more watts into the friction of those side loaded parts sliding, then you have less watts propelling you forwards. If you lose the least friction to those now more loaded parts because they are coated in the same super slippery polished wax coating as the main load parts - you are losing less of your watts to propel you forwards.
Over time, just like the wax coating greatly reduces wear of your main load parts, it will reduce lateral wear of chain on the side loaded parts.
I really do not understand the thinking behind why chain line angles would be detrimental to wax, aside from people mistaking initial excess being pressed out for the loss of all the wax - which to me is an odd place to arrive at, but that is the only thing i can think of at the moment re where people get this wrong.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Thanks for the detailed response! Yes, I suspected this because a freshly waxed chain initially sheds excess wax, but quickly stops doing so if left in the same gear; but additional wax starts coming off once the drivetrain is put through the gears. I didn't get the idea from watching any vids claiming this, it was an honest question based on my own observations.
It's not entirely crazy to think shifting has implications for lubrication, and that the wax that's being shed during shifts could affect performance. Without actually simulating it during a test, any claim one way or the other is just a theory. So I'm happy to hear its part of the test protocol! Too many performance related claims for cycling products are made based on tests with questionable real-world validity. (It's evident from the video and your thorough response that you are very knowledgeable, and to be clear, I was never trying to imply ZFC's tests lacked real-world relevance.)
As a side note (and as I'm sure you're well aware), the very fact that bicycles (by and large) use the chain for shifting in an of itself has huge implications for lubrication. Motorcycle chains, which don't have the lateral movement, are lubricated internally and fully sealed and last practically forever.
@@blooptastic All groovy - and apologies sometimes i think my typing comes across harder than it does in my head when im typing it. I think a main point is that overall the lubrication from chain line angle is generally not a major concern. If the main load surfaces of the chain are lubricated, then so will the much much lower loaded parts of the chain - with the exception of cases like water has washed off lubrication from those surfaces a little bit prior to lubrication being completely washed out deepr inside chain. Other than that - if its lubricated, its lubricated - be it solid wax, or wax drip, or wet lube. The side loading of chain line angle - if well lubricated - introduces in most cases 1 to 2w of extra friction. So yes there is sufficient load there to cause a measurable increase in friction losses, however it is still well under main load surfaces, and they have the same lubrication to those parts. It has just come up a few times - and i have seen channels in the past literally fail immersive waxing as good option, claiming the chain had no lubrication, because it was all "squeezed out" when they ran it on chain line angles leaving no wax lubrication behind - something that other testing didnt discover as they only used straight line testing. Aside from this just being rather monumentally incorrect, and now having a lot of people believe something incorrect - they have also obviously missed understanding why immersive wax prepped chains are, and have been for a long time - the chain prep of choice for the most important races amongst world tour teams, olympics / world championships -and this would be an odd thing if there was an issue with running them on a chain line angle which will happen rather quickly...
@@zerofrictioncycling992 oh, certainly no reason to apologize! I enjoyed your detailed and thorough responses. Thanks for taking the time to write them up, and of course for doing all the research in the first place!
Question about chain waxing, is it okay to use regular basic paraffin wax? I come from Europe, and all of the products you mention are either hardly available here, or because of that, the price is way beyond reasonable for most of us.
Silca has an EU web store now…
I've been using paraffin for 3 years at get around 400-600 Km - over 12,000 KM across 3 chains and no appreciable wear. This is on a road bike and I don't ride in the wet.
In my experience using my own paraffin wax + TPFE is significantly better than any non wax product i had used previously but Silca is better than the stuff I mixed myself. I base this on chain life. It's the only thing I can measure. II ride about 12k km per year
Not disputing the cost of some of these premium lubes. But the dramatically decreased wear rates means you are saving yourself money. If you save wearing through just 1 chain per year, you’re ahead financially. I’m at 12000km on each of my waxed chains, and still going. And that’s without even thinking about the reduced wear on cassettes or chainrings.
@@andrewmcalister3462 I have been using food grade paraffin wax on my road bike for about 10 years and get around 20,000km per chain when measured with a Shimano chain checker but rarely ride in wet conditions and I re apply the wax every 100 and 200km. Costs per year are incredibly low for the wax and component replacement.
An unmentioned benefit of hot-wax is the process of removing and reinstalling the chain will end up swapping direction randomly, so both sides of the pins should wear more evenly.
With some chains, they are actually directional (arrow for travel direction, or stampings only on outward face, etc), so this wouldn't necessarily be true, but it's an interesting point anyhow for more generically installed chains.
The most efficient chain is Dura Ace 11 speed followed by KMC X11SL Silver.
How do you know this? Can you point to the data?
Sitting on the trainer watching this after applying Muc Off chain lube… 😳
Your screwed😂 I’m gonna empty my bottle of muc off and fill it with a better lube it’s a very nice bottle
Hi. I live in a hot part of Australia. Kieran said that wax lube needs to be heated above 80F to fully penetrate the chain. Temperatures are often above 80F when I ride. Is that a problem? Dust and grit could stick in the liquid wax. Does liquid wax lubricate well?
Is a belt drive more efficient then?
Did you talk about teflon/PFAS additives? Hopefully the manufacturers stop putting them in