To be fair, he doesn't say there are people that accepted everything else but were ONLY sceptical of this, only that this is one thing that people are skeptical of
@@SomeTomfooleryI hate the fact that you wrote that word differently each time.i can't even get back at you because both versions are technically correct.
Imagine if the Ten Commandments were like “Y’all ain’t supposed to kill people” Edit: to be fair there are “translations” (if I could even call them that) that are written and could be written in a way that can make you have any kind of accent, like ebonics, Southern, British, etc. Now on whose authority these translations are ok to use is up to the Church to decide.
@@superdrelowell, there are modern translations which use accessible language, like the New Revised Standard Version. Those say “You shall not murder.”
in all fairness, the New Testament is in Koine Greek, a more lowbrow, colloquial form of Greek, where most other Greek texts of the era were written in the more prestigious Attic (or Atticised Koine) edit: i saw some folks in the replies saying that this is somehow evidence against the New Testament and i think that's funny af. Is God an elitist? I'm not even Christian (just a language/religion nerd), i just think that's such a ridiculous criticism! The fact that the NT was written in a way ordinary people would easily understand and connect to rather than sticking to a pretentious high register just to sound good is one of my favorite things about it. And I think it fits the themes of Jesus' teachings very well. Jesus was literally born in a barn, remember!
the new testament was written by people, meanwhile the book of mormon claims to be revealed to Joseph Smith. He was doing anything but translating a set of non-existing golden plates
Yes but this text seems to be a mix of standard english / fancy english with dialect / slang terms which doesn't make sense unless a pretender wrote it.
@@baklavalover2000 "Religious texts" Yes, the Quran too. Gods voice is always somewhat separate. People knew how to write a different character in the past too. they were just as smart (and dumb) as you and me
@@baklavalover2000 What are you basing this on? Do we have any records showing these differences? How do you know the language wasn't influenced by his companions (the Sahabah)?
I am not an apologist for Mormonism, but some argue that the Biblical Greek manuscripts have grammar errors as well but defenders say they were not errors based on the time frame. The exact same situation.
@@BallMarkscame from Humans with God’s words. Grammar its not static and objective thing, its just convention of scholars with different opinions on grammar. For example, if anglophonic countries decide to remove “do” and replace its with “de” - its will be grammar standard. P.S I’m not English speaker, so I probably made some errors but the point is clear I guess
I'm sure loads of people have already said this, but using 'them' instead of 'those' is completely normal in some areas. I'm from Devon, and my folk say stuff like, "Them trees need a trim." 'In them days' is completely routine. "I was a carpenter back in them days." In the same way that 'you' serves various grammatical functions, 'them' does too, depending on your dialect.
Anything involving humans is susceptible to error. People get blindsided when they forget that. These errors don't surprise me, especially given Joseph's education level and translation method (speaking word by word to a scribe to write).
In case anyone is wondering, the Bible often uses casual speak, hence why older english version uses "thee" and "thou," whicher were the familiar second person pronouns. There were also parts where people talked like themselves but translators "fixed" the quotes of these persons to sound more like proper speech, like how some people would spoke with bad grammer like modern humans would, or if they were in pain and couldnt speak properly. However, none of this is me justifying the book of mormons.
"Thee" and "thou" aren't quite casual language, they're intimate language. You use them with close friends, but it's still all within the realm of proper grammar Not disagreeing, just clarifying
@theMatthgeek Not really Thee and Thou are used with people you know but also with children. Actually, the average peasant would call almost everyone though except nobles, while nobles would call other nobles you and peasants in the 3rd person.
All three of you are making it a bit more complicated than it needs to be. "You" would be the plural or formal address, used to superiors, strangers or groups of more than one. Thee and thou were the subject and object singular forms used among equals and to children. It's confused a bit by the typographical habit of using "Y" to replace thorn.
Actually when the Bible was written spoken English would literally not be understandable by any of us. That's Shakespearian English which is placed from around 1500-1700. The phrases thee and thou literally couldn't have existed back when the Bible was written both old and new testaments. These are words that come from translation and were never in the book in the first place, like when google translate adds more words to your translation so the person reading it can have an easier time reading it.
Love this and your Missionary ensemble. 🤓 Common Language is why I enjoy the Complete Jewish Bible translation, but I do also enjoy CSB, NIV, & NKJV & a number of others as well. As a Member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints I appreciate the respectful & informative nature of this.
I would like to say how much I enjoy this channel every time I get a chance. Now I respect you even more for being so polite and respectful to LDS beliefs instead of antagonistic like most. The Book of Mormon also contains a ton of hebraisms and other curious literary writing styles I'd love to see you analyze. Thank you for being a gentleman.
@@-Felix-. Again, all I am saying is I appreciate his respect and kindness compared to most. I'm not preaching about it, and all I pointed out was that there were interesting things to find, when his regular videos primarily dealt with Hebrew and he has touched on a lot of religious things. So please play nice, no one wants to fight or argue with you.
Not true. The phrase described is three years of education… often, in his time, this vernacular referred to 3 years of education beyond primary school. Granted, the education then was still more limited than it is now, but he by no means had anywhere near as little as a 3rd grader
As a Latter Day Saint I feel this was a fair, reasonable and informative. Instead of bashing you’re asking an honest question and creating a conversation. The real truth of the BOM is found in its testimony of Jesus as the Lord and Savior of us all. Thanks again!
Not for the book of Mormon but there is one for the bible. Look up "the word on the street bible." It's......something. Edit: fixed the name to the appropriate title
The original Old Testament used simple and personal sounding language. The later translations made it fancier sounding and we often like to use older translations which compounds that idea. Christ, for instance, in the New Testament spoke simply as well. In retrospect it sounds fancy because it sounds biblical and has at times been made more prose-y by translators, but contemporarily he was a carpenter who performed miracles. He was a poor man by any economic measure and spoke intelligently but with the simple language you’d expect.
Slight correction. The language of the King James bible (which I assume you mean) was actually written in a lower more common form of English but we have come to associate the very informal "thee" and "thou" as formal due to shifts in language (in part BECAUSE of the Bible).
As always you make a good point. I’m personally an atheist but I love your religious content. I feel like I always learn something from you; but you also leave me with a great question to ruminate on.
@@Opuskrokusactually I think I saw a character similar to “Super Mormon” at a Utah comic convention, he got his powers from green jello if I remember right…
@@DustyGus yeah, but the authors of the Bible were divinely inspired, not divine or infallible themselves and not native Greek speakers. The Bible is an account of sacred events written by divinely inspired people, not the Word of God. In addition, many of the attempts to scrub wrong grammar from the Bible created errors on top of regular choices of grammar of the vernacular of that time. Keep in mind also that during that time the grammar of Greek was getting drastically simplified, resulting in huge problems when it came to deciding over a canonized language.
@konstantinosvlachantonis2471 as a mormon, I'd like to point out that the book of mormon was also written by divinely inspired people. The grammar errors may have even come from the original writers. Idk, I'm not very versed in the secular history of the church. And the grammar isn't what I based my testimony on.
Sigh. The only book of the Bible that has bad grammar is Revelation, which was written that way intentionally, rather like how Twain's and Faulkner's books contain many "errors." Even Revelation's poor grammar is often overstated. Luke and Matthew are excellent writers whose Greek is typically quite good, with occasional variations indicating likely later revision. Hebrews is extremely intellectual, the equal of any Greek literature. Paul sometimes writes in a confusing and disorganized way, but is competent in the language. John's style is highly structured and designed for memorization - it's no surprise that many famous Bible verses are in John. Even Mark, the weakest writer of the New Testament, has a style that is more simple than erroneous. John is writing literature and Luke is writing a documentary, while Mark is writing an email.
@WarrenCheskyTheFoxwiggins I get ads for the church basically only when I'm looking at stuff related to it. But I got like an almost 2 minute unskibbable byu ad on spotify.
The original manuscript was written without any punctuation and without any chapter headings. The printer made some arbitrary changes that weren't caught. If you study history, this was not uncommon in many languages. You look at Old Greek and Roman manuscripts and they write them without any spacing and it's continuous. The same thing is true for Chinese and Japanese. When I was young learning to read, Japanese drove me crazy though I spoke the language fluently. Nowadays, many publications in Japanese actually put small spaces but when I was learning there were still many publications which still ran the characters all together.
Fun fact a decent amount of the errors come from the copping the original translation to the printer’s manuscript, others are just following a more Semitic style than is acceptable in plane English, you can see this to be the case by looking at the original and printer’s manuscript online
Hey I'm on your side, but for the people who aren't, this sounds really confrontational. Would you revise the comment to sound nicer? I don't want any more bad rep for Mormons than necessary
I've been watching your videos for a long time! I hope Ironland is still on the path to sovereignty. 😆 Two thoughts: 1) Even the Holy Bible has contextual errors, like the people traveling with Saul hearing and seeing in one account but not the other. So, let's disregard the idea that scripture is perfect. 2) There is a ton of context and information that would be impossible to have in the early 1800s when the Book of Mormon was written/translated. In my opinion, these types of grammatical errors are an indication that the words were translated by a man but the overarching principles, complex story lines and geography, anachronisms, etc. are evidence that strengthen the Book of Mormon's case. Also, there are a ton of awesome things in the Book of Mormon that Joseph Smith never knew about, and some things he just clearly misunderstood himself that are made pretty clear in the Book of Mormon. Which, is a further strength of the Book of Mormon. If I was using Hebrew parallelism in a book I was making up, I would probably want someone to "notice," but nobody ever did for over 100 years.
@@theoelliott5944 So... you just follow it due to strong religious conviction I suppose? Because all evidence till now points to Joseph Smith unfortunatly having just made it all up
About 3 months ago he gave a 2-hour presentation on the channel The Interpreter Foundation. It was a fascinating dive into the critical text project, tracking all the changes that ever happened to it
They were pretty much written the same way, some guy got a message from God and started to write it down, but one is accepted and believe and the other is ridiculed a lot more
@@ChaosAngel9151the bible is a summary of stories people told each other about things like Jesus. It's no direct book from god. The bible was made hundreds of years after Jesus so it's more loosely and has multiple versions
@itsCombustify oh these comments ARE respectful, believe you me. People are pointing out truths, but I haven't seen anybody being straight up hateful.
There are many verses of… I think Helaman? Worrying about being judged for his poor writing. Joseph had very little schooling and his wife Said he could barely write a letter.
Helaman sounds right. I want to say that there's a verse in there that says something along the lines of "don't blame God for my mistake" or something like that.
Glad you made the point about how grammar/language differs depending on your background. What is "grammatical" doesn't come from the void, but is based on whichever language variation we decided to codify, which more often than not is, like you alluded to, the language of aristocrats
I don't know about mormonism, but as a christian my thought is that the best case scenario for any part of the bible or related texts is to be divinely inspired, but still entirely the work of the very fallible humans who wrote it. God would never make such a simple error, but a prophet totally would they had tons of flaws.
Mormons are a bit different though, where they seem to believe that God didn’t just inspire the *translation* divinely but actually told the prophet what words to write
@@keegster7167not so. I’m sure some of our group believe that. But the text we have states he used a urim and thumim (spelling?) to translate. Which could be argued as God telling him what to write, but I’d argue it’s just god level tech, like google translate but better. Lol
@@keegster7167 Given the mockery of "Golden Bible", and the *translation* being the key component, I'm very curious where this keeps cropping up. Is it a fabrication? Who told you this?
@@eetoved1758 probably talking about a first edition you can find online digitizations of the original and printer’s manuscripts, by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, you wouldn’t be able to read the Gold ones, as their reformed Egyptian, which is to say Egyptian cursive equivalent modified to convey the sounds and words of the Nephites, which is a language that has been lost for a long time
He read to people he knew (like Oliver Cowdrey and his wife Sarah) and they wrote it down as a scribe. Maybe they caused the spelling errors but the grammar was probably Joseph, considering he never went past a 3rd grade education
@yeeterdeleter0117 the spelling errors were actually introduced by the act of copying the original manuscript to the printers manuscript, you can look at both of them online, however you will still find grammar “errors” that exist because the Book of Mormon follows a more Semitic grammar structure so more and if or if ands or something, as well as some other things
@clearstonewindows I had to go to church activities almost everyday of the week, I'm well aware of the teachings of the church, beyond simply the Book of Mormon. If you're an adult Convert you have to read it yourself and study it yourself, what you learn is purely based on what you seek, if you grew up in the church then you were taught it like it was school. So yes, I've read the Book of Mormon more than once, cover to cover, with a lot of highlighted pages that I discussed many times. My second biggest issue with the church was that almost any time I questioned when something was conflicting I was scolded instead of people looking objectively at the information and considering what it may mean and pondering the conflicts and what it means for the teachings. It is what is it and we ought to be allowed to discuss mistakes without it being taken as an insult to the church.
As a Latter-day Saint (aka "Mormon") I appreciate how fair this reel is. I would point out that we don't claim that the scribe wrote everything down perfectly. However, I appreciate the respect you showed and love your work. Long live Ironland 🎉
It's unfortunate he didn't talk about the cult rituals stolen from the freemasons that are performed in the temple. Take your positions in the ritual every 30 minutes or sky daddy won't love you as much as the *more* righteous of his children.
The conclusions you drew here aren’t exactly the most intuitive or common. The most common defense of grammatical errors is that they’re because the book was written down by a scribe, who’s prone to making grammatical errors, and then copied into a SECOND manuscript to give to the printer, which is prone to more mistakes, who then copied it a third time into what is now known as the first edition. That means the “translation” of the book went through 4 different fallible mediums prone to mistakes before making it into what is now the first edition. Mormons don’t believe the Book of Mormon first edition came down from heaven, it was orated by Joseph and copied by a scribe. Many of these grammar mistakes aren’t found in the original manuscript and are errors from the printing manuscript + printers edition
It was in fact dictated by Joseph and written by a small succession of scribes including his wife, Emma, Oliver Cowdrey (both of whom were school teachers) and a few others. The grammatical errors had many places to slip in and be fixed and be made all over again.
@@groerhahn225 what? No, the original manuscript exists, just 2/3rds of it was destroyed by water damage. The skousin transcript is a transcript of the Book of Mormon using the original manuscript
@@groerhahn225 the part that “mysteriously” vanished was the 116 pages from the book of Lehi, which probably when printed likely would have doubled the length of the Book of Mormon. I put mysteriously in quotes because they were likely stolen and then altered, as there was at some point publication of something someone claimed were the lost pages but I wouldn’t trust the contents of that because 1 we don’t know the authenticity of it, 2 we don’t know how much that was altered
The Boof of Revelation, is said to be written poorly in Greek; "I notice that in neither language nor style does he write accurate Greek. He makes use of barbaric expressions and is sometimes guilty even of grammatical error". -Bart Ehrman
"In them days" works well in my local dialect. I remember the village was not happy when the vicar insisted we changed the Lord's prayer from "them that trespass against us " to "those who" .
Thanks for making good unbiased content about our religion. Too often I see people of our faith being bombarded with unprovoked insults and this video is a great example of how to not agree with someone, but still be agreeable.
Listen, I respect you as a person, but I have to ask... why. Out of every religion, Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, Satanism, Islam...you chose MORMONISM? Why?
@@LucienMahikaiwell, first of all, "Mormonism" isn't a thing because nobody worships Mormon. But I get what you're saying, I'm just being pedantic here. Also, the LDS Church is quite literally a Christian religion, Jesus Christ being the center of it all. I've seen so much hate for the LDS Church without any research. If you look into what we believe, you'll find that it's ultimately a Church of love and light. Our Church is overall a good Church full of kindness. There is much fallibility of the members and the presidency, and due to this there are many people who have suffered from their dealings with our church. In the end, though, the LDS doctrine is one of eternal progression. We strive to become better each day. Me personally, I especially love the Church because of its view on Repentance and Family. People do not come into this world "fallen", and when we do inevitably fall, we can turn towards God again and again; and families can unite eternally. If you're actually curious and not just being rhetorical, you might find the Articles of Faith an interesting topic to research, whether or not you agree with them. I am curious though, what are your thoughts on the Church and why do you view it so negatively?
@@LucienMahikai My other reply got deleted (or at least isn't showing up for me), but I'm curious as to why you view the Church negatively. Also, in case my reply is actually gone, I chose the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints because of its doctrine on Repentance and Family.
I wish people would just tell the history as it is, the guy completely left out the fact that Joseph would translate and Oliver Cowdery was the scribe to write it down. Obviously there was going to be grammar errors.
I speak a dialect similar to this, being from the Florida Panhandle. Im also firmly in the descriptivist linguist camp so I hesitate to call these “Errors”
@@RaptorJesus Which is why people tried to come to his house and steal the golden plates while in his possession, right? I mean, you regularly would go to steal things from a "conman" who claimed to have them, if you clearly knew they didn't. It's only logical. The historical evidence of break-ins alone discredit that position, and that's available from court records of the day.
I'm sorry, the Book of Mormon has been brought up, so now people must have their brains turn off and become rabidly antagonistic. This is the way of the Mainstream Christian.
@@SlavicChautauquaneven if that position is taken, there is just straight bs in the Book of Mormon 😭😭 You have to be a fool to believe that Native Americans are descended from Jews, even though there has NEVER been evidence
I'd expect it to be written in whatever language was most easily comprehensible to the person receiving the book, and hand delivered by said being so that there was no doubt about its origins.
Yeah the printing press workers and the transcription to the printer’s manuscript wasn’t perfect, but you wouldn’t find most of those mistakes on the original manuscript, because they were copy errors mostly, others were actually because they were following a different grammar structure, a more Semitic grammar structure in the original manuscript
It’s fascinating how a lowly farm boy with little formal education could produce such a complex book in such a short time. If we accept that it was truly translated, this actually makes sense. How could an uneducated young man create intricate stories with distinct narrative voices corresponding to different supposed authors, yet still struggle with grammatical perfection during the writing process? It almost seems as though the imperfections lie in the translation process, the part Joseph himself claimed responsibility for.
As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon Church), I love this short. It is not attacking or promoting, just explaining something you found interesting and presenting an unbiased opinion on!
Joseph didn't even write the script. He had three scribes that hand wrote what they received verbally from Joseph Smith. How come this wasn't mentioned in this video? The three scribes were Martin Harris, Oliver Cowdrey and Emma Smith. The grammar errors could have been simply from the handwriting. Furthermore, the introduction written by the hand of Joseph even states that if there are errors they are errors of men.
I’m a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (or commonly known as the Mormon church, although this is not the true official name but that’s ok) and I would encourage everyone to read and ponder the Book of Mormon and pray and ask Heavenly Father if it is true! That’s how I received my answer it is, that’s the only way you can truly know! God bless everyone ❤
To be fair, even the oldest extant Hebrew texts have occasional grammatical errors. It would be kind of a double standard to criticize one but not the other.
Are the oldest extant Hebrew texts the first ones to be written at all or are they copies already? I think the book of Mormon is one of the few claimed religious books that we actually have the first version of. And do Jews actually claim those original texts were directly divinely dictated, or a human describing of events?
I think its a good reminder that the book of Mormon has errors, the authors of the book of Mormon were human and mentions to my knowledge at least twice in the text of the possibility of errors. Let alone it was translated by a very uneducated person leaving the possibility for errors like this very likely. And at the end of the day we should ask question does a book having grammatical erros remove any possibility that its true?
Typically it's the critics' own lack of intelligence that makes them skeptical. *Way* too many amazing things that an intelligent person wouldn't just write off.
@GldnClaw Or maybe it's the historical inaccuracies (the book of Mormon says that Native Americans came from Israel, which isn't true), the fact that Joseph Smith was a known conman, the fact that the secret handshakes to get into heaven are from Freemasonry (a human organization), or the convenient changing of doctrine with the times as things are proven wrong or become socially unacceptable, despite the fact that Mormonism teaches that god is unchanging. There are a lot of reasons people don't believe it's true. And even if it was, many people don't like how abusive the church is and historically/unapologetically has been.
@@Noble06DS It's called "Serving a Mission." Because you go out. And you serve. Rather than serving your country, you go serve other people. In fact, one type of mission, a Service Mission, is entirely based around that. Just helping people. Mowing their lawns. Pulling weeds for them. Whatever. And rather than the government paying you for it, you pay. If it's a Service Mission, you basically just live with your family and you have to pay. If you go on a Proselyting Mission you pay a set amount and the church divvies out funds based on how expensive it is to live in a certain area. Not sure how much they subsidize but iirc you pay like 12k ($500 per month) or something and that somehow lasts two years? I mean, some stuff is provided by communities, but I'd be kinda surprised if the church didn't help pay somehow.
Putting a doorbell sound randomly in a video should be a federal offense.
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Spelling and vocabulary rapidly evolve, sometimes within the span of a single generation. There also exist variances of linguistics depending on the region and culture especially prior to the standardization of grammatical usage taught in institutions of education. Therefore, it is a reasonable argument that the original usage and text is the correct format as it set the precedent.
Hey I’m a member of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and I thought this was neat. I definitely recommend reading the Book of Mormon, especially if you believe in Jesus Christ, as it will definitely strengthen your faith in Him.
People are so quick to call the Book of Mormon made up but how would you explain the many instances of chiasmus found in the book? This is a poetic writing style that was discovered in the Bible well after the Book of Mormon was published.
If you have been on the internet long enough, you understand that Satan never allows people to give the Book of Mormon a fair Shake. They must always turn their brains off and be rabid in their antagonism.
The literary technique of chiasmus (repeating a pair of phrases with similar meanings in reverse order) can occur randomly if you just ramble about stuff and try to sound mysterious and important. It's been used for as long as humans have been writing because it's just one of the dozens of ways to arrange words into patterns that that sound appealing. It was used by Shakespeare, the ancient Greeks, and even the ancient Mayans. To put a fine mathematical point on it, I would explain the instances of chiasmus in the Book of Mormon as simply random coincidence, made statistically likely by what is commonly referred to as "p-hacking": if you want to find something statistically significant (usage of a "special" technique or reference) and there's a 1% chance of it happening randomly, just look for dozens of different literary techniques and the chance that _one_ of them will be significant is much higher.
@@magneticflux- There is an entire CHAPTER (Alma 36) in the Book of Mormon that is a chiasmus, not just a few versus that can be written off as statistically insignificant. To call entire chapter "random coincidence" is ignoring the importance you yourself are placing on statistics.
As a member, I remember learning Joseph Smith only received 3 years of schooling as a kid, so I guess that's self-explanatory? To me this makes it even more impressive how the first edition wasn't any worse than some grammar mistakes.
Another relevant point, Joseph Smith had very little formal education and also used several different scribes of various education levels when first putting the Book of Mormon to paper. Which scribes were responsible for which parts? Did they accurately copy exactly what he said (meaning the error was Joseph's) or was the scribe the source of a particular error? Or was the error the result of the printer struggling with someone's handwriting or just having a bad day?
tbh it’d be nice if we had a unified language or could at least understand everyone else so that way we could have religious texts with no loss from translations. oh wait
Yeah god kind of shot themselves in the foot a bit there with the whole tower of babal thing. Probably should have thought that though or not have gotten annoyed at humans working together well enough to build a tower.
@@clearstonewindows ...There's archeological evidence of horses existing in America before Columbus. I don't know why nobody ever Googles that. It's a point I've seen so much but I've literally met the grandson of the guy who originally discovered them.
Why would the Book of Ether being at the end of the book matter at all? Or are you talking about the weirdness with the transition from Omni to Words of Mormon, to Mosiah, because if that’s it, then that’s just because of the 116 lost pages, if you are talking about technology, it has been discovered that ancient Americans had cement and most of that stuff mentioned in the Book of Mormon, but lost it over time, because for some reason in America older ruins are significantly better made and engineered and the Sword of Jericho exists and was from around the same time period as Lehi and his family leaving Jerusalem, and it was determined to be made of steel, but steel could literally be referring to metal or metal alloy as it does in the Bible.
@@Speedy500 "fossil records show that [horses] became extinct on the American continent approximately 10,000 years ago" Other anachronisms: - elephants - domestic cattle - domestic goats - pigs - steel and iron (NA metallurgy where known was bronze and gold mostly) - chariots - a compass - glass windows - metal swords (there's little evidence of metallurgy, and none of swords) - scimitars - references to "Christ", and knowledge of him being the Son of God, Lamb of God, etc. - Greek names - church and synagogue ... And so forth -
I don't see the logic behind obsessing over whether or not a native English speaker has made grammatical errors in his book. Every dialect of a language has its own lexicon and grammar and exceptions to grammatical rules. It's literally what the people speak
It's god's words alledgedly, not native english speaker ones. So it begs the question why god would provide texts with a mix of standard English and dialect/slang and language mistakes.
Because he's not the one writing or translating the text. It was supposedly written by a native American and then God translated it into English for Smith. So it is suspicious when most of the text sounds like God, but then a few parts sound like Joseph Smith.
Isn't they who want to keep their marriages in heaven, even Jesus sayin that in angels place nobody get married? The pharisees would like mormonism a lot....
In the LDS church, you get married on earth, and then in heaven, you would already be married. Maybe research before you speak, and try to free yourself from bias.
Now that I reread Matthew 22:30 compared to Stumation's comment, I can see how they could justify the belief, kind of. I wouldn't personally interpret the scripture that way though. I think it misses the whole point of the story of the Saducees coming to Jesus.
if the Book of Mormon had been published flawlessly, Mormons might fall into the same solo scriptura trap the tremendous introduction, publication, (revelation), history, and faith of the Mormon people is a much more interesting note.
@charliebertrand6028 You don't hear both sides from the top comments. The two top comments are both jokes at the religion's expense. I do enjoy having multiple opinions, including opposing ones, but not when that's the only one everyone sees.
Thats a cool use of a religious text. And a way cool question! I mean it really asks a bigger question which is how do you view your deity? An untouchable unfeeling God or living, breathing, and involved. It more wild that people say that they believe in the same God as Abraham but they all view that being differently, so is that god the same one?
Yeah, god is unchanging. God is who god is. But mortal comprehension and understanding? Absolutely yeah you can think of god in infinite ways. And almost all of them are wrong or not the full picture. We can't truly know god. He is above our understanding. But we can know his intentions. His love for us.
What's funny is the grammatical errors written from that time period sounds so normal in modern slang. - "them days" is either gangsta/hood grammar or jamaican grammar - "much horses" is basically memespeak from the early 2010's
In Watchmen the comic, they discuss Dr. Manhattan and reference “God is real, and he is American.” This notion absolutely blew my mind. Would God even speak English? Would God be able to communicate? Would he be able to speak to you perfectly as you speak since he is omnipotent? What God’s chosen species was penguins or otters and he just likes watching them all day? What if God revealed himself to an isolated tribe in the Amazon that has legitimate scripture no one else has seen..
God would make his message clear to all that heard it and I believe that the Book of Mormon is extremely clear. A lot more clear then the Bible at least
Both are useless unfortunately. God is not only made up, he's awful as a because he can't prevent any harm on Earth even though he's supposed to be a super powerful being. He doesn't give a damn about humans since so many die and suffer from diseases or wars he would have created.
@@wildchameleon7 the point of life isn’t for it to be perfect. That’s what heaven is for. The point of life is to persevere through suffering and to gain experiences. I’m sorry that you view god the way you do but god does love you and care for you and I am confident you will understand everything when you die and truly know god.
@@wildchameleon7 well when you give your children the ability to make their own decisions, their lives will become hard. Which is why He has Prophets and Apostles to guide us as a people, His children. It is an extension of His love. I invite you to talk to Heavenly Father and learn how much He loves you.
@@bcg6760Do you think it makes more sense for an intelligent being to have created a habitable, beautiful planet like Earth, perfectly fine tuned to support intelligent human life, or for stuff to just start existing for no reason?
…THATS what made them skeptical??
To be fair, he doesn't say there are people that accepted everything else but were ONLY sceptical of this, only that this is one thing that people are skeptical of
@@SomeTomfooleryI hate the fact that you wrote that word differently each time.i can't even get back at you because both versions are technically correct.
@@magmati55 sqepitkal
@@magmati55 sqeptikal*
@@magmati55 Hahaha, I didn't even notice! Now I don't know which way is natural for me
Mormon "scholars" are using the word "evidence" very loosely...
So like every other religions' scholars?
🎶” Dum dum dum dum dum” 🎶
@@mystery_mr.ypretty much
Mormonism is one of the schools of belief that can be truly proven false. It's hilarious that people base their entire lives off of it.
because they're mormons without the second m (disclaimer: this is a joke)
When he said "Book of Mormon." I thought he was talking about the musical for a second 😂 😂.
99+ missed calls from English teacher
He didn't actually get an education past 3rd grade
Had to work on the farm instead
@yeeterdeleter0117crazy
As a linguist, I find this hilarious
?
From all the things that I could hear you speak about, I wasn't expecting you speaking about the Book of Mormon
Glad he has done it
Isn’t the presenter himself (or was) a Mormon?
You weren't expecting the guy who constantly makes videos about religion to make a video about the book of Mormon?
as a Utahan i was very surprised
@@abhi211-Tno he's baptist
The phrase "major grammar errors" is, ironically enough, a major grammatical error. I hope this message reaches the right people.
Oh my gosh, I noticed that too! It’s supposed to be major grammatical errors, right?
surely "major grammar error" is fine if you read "grammar error" as "system error". As in, an error of the grammar (of the phrase).
@@laxxius That would play into the major error in syntax that was already there, but let's not get into that.
Brute, quid isti barbari putant se digna lingua loqui?
The grammar not sees can go take a Hike and shut the Front door!!
Imagine if the Ten Commandments were like “Y’all ain’t supposed to kill people”
Edit: to be fair there are “translations” (if I could even call them that) that are written and could be written in a way that can make you have any kind of accent, like ebonics, Southern, British, etc. Now on whose authority these translations are ok to use is up to the Church to decide.
“ain’t supposed to kill no people”, if I may venture so!
To be fair, though. If the Bible were translated today, it would probably say, "You will/must not kill" rather than "Though shall not kill."
@@superdrelowell, there are modern translations which use accessible language, like the New Revised Standard Version. Those say “You shall not murder.”
Don’t forget the woke politics that will be added for no reason
Checks out
in all fairness, the New Testament is in Koine Greek, a more lowbrow, colloquial form of Greek, where most other Greek texts of the era were written in the more prestigious Attic (or Atticised Koine)
edit: i saw some folks in the replies saying that this is somehow evidence against the New Testament and i think that's funny af. Is God an elitist? I'm not even Christian (just a language/religion nerd), i just think that's such a ridiculous criticism! The fact that the NT was written in a way ordinary people would easily understand and connect to rather than sticking to a pretentious high register just to sound good is one of my favorite things about it. And I think it fits the themes of Jesus' teachings very well. Jesus was literally born in a barn, remember!
the new testament was written by people, meanwhile the book of mormon claims to be revealed to Joseph Smith. He was doing anything but translating a set of non-existing golden plates
Yes but this text seems to be a mix of standard english / fancy english with dialect / slang terms which doesn't make sense unless a pretender wrote it.
@@joostdriesens3984Isn't everyone who wrotes a holy book a pretender?
And textual analysis of the book of Mormon shows many authors as you'd expect if it was true.
That doesn't redeem the Book of Mormon. If anything, it casts doubt on the New Testament.
As a member that watches your content, I was surprised that you are talking about the Book of Mormon.
lol same. Im grateful for how he wasn't slamming the church.
Same
All religious texts are written in the language of the human that wrote them, using the colloquialisms known to that person at the time.
Not the Quran, the way Allah speaks in the Quran is very different than how Muhammad spoke
@@baklavalover2000 "Religious texts" Yes, the Quran too. Gods voice is always somewhat separate. People knew how to write a different character in the past too. they were just as smart (and dumb) as you and me
@@baklavalover2000 What are you basing this on? Do we have any records showing these differences? How do you know the language wasn't influenced by his companions (the Sahabah)?
@@htpkeythe Quran was in a lingustic league of its own
‘Except for the one I follow isn’t like that’
Well, I wouldn’t expect to be written in the language of that guy from Sling Blade
"I'd like 'em plague of frogs mhmmm"
"We offer small, medium, and large plagues"
"I'd like one of the big 'uns"
Slingblade definitely
underrated comment
I would.
Some folks call it a Kaiser blade
AHAHAHA
I am not an apologist for Mormonism, but some argue that the Biblical Greek manuscripts have grammar errors as well but defenders say they were not errors based on the time frame. The exact same situation.
Both things point in the same direction. Books written by people, just like any other book.
And that's because both came from humans, of course.
@@BallMarkscame from Humans with God’s words. Grammar its not static and objective thing, its just convention of scholars with different opinions on grammar. For example, if anglophonic countries decide to remove “do” and replace its with “de” - its will be grammar standard.
P.S I’m not English speaker, so I probably made some errors but the point is clear I guess
I'm sure loads of people have already said this, but using 'them' instead of 'those' is completely normal in some areas. I'm from Devon, and my folk say stuff like, "Them trees need a trim." 'In them days' is completely routine. "I was a carpenter back in them days." In the same way that 'you' serves various grammatical functions, 'them' does too, depending on your dialect.
Exactly what I was thinking. Plus, there are more damning mistakes in the book of mormon than just grammar kek
What does that have to do with Joseph Smith's nonsense?
Either the book is written in standard English or dialect / slang, not a mix of the two, that is plain wrong.
Yes. The argument here is that this is supposed to be direct word from God, so you would expect perfect grammar from a perfect narrator.
im pretty sure God doesnt use that typa language
"Thou" was Middle English informal "You".
Although we consider that type of speech fanciful and proper, it was the same as saying "Y'all" today.
Thou is second person singular. Y'all is second person plural.
@JonGunnarssonDotA So when God said "Thou shalt not," He only meant Moses specifically. Got it.
@@Mr12Relic No. God is speaking to you, the invididual, specifically.
That's a weird thing to question since "thou" being singular is well attested and other languages also use the singular.
I'm certain God wasn't talking to Moses in English of any time.
Anything involving humans is susceptible to error. People get blindsided when they forget that. These errors don't surprise me, especially given Joseph's education level and translation method (speaking word by word to a scribe to write).
"Tremendious" is a perfectly cromulent word, though!
It embiggens me to see another Simpsons fan in the wild
I was also thinking Lewis Carroll would approve!
@@eorzeantours1565There is at least three of us cromulent folk
I watched "Wicked" in theaters last Tuesday. "Tremendious" would not have been out of in that movie.
Sorry I dont speak Cromulen.
In case anyone is wondering, the Bible often uses casual speak, hence why older english version uses "thee" and "thou," whicher were the familiar second person pronouns. There were also parts where people talked like themselves but translators "fixed" the quotes of these persons to sound more like proper speech, like how some people would spoke with bad grammer like modern humans would, or if they were in pain and couldnt speak properly.
However, none of this is me justifying the book of mormons.
"Thee" and "thou" aren't quite casual language, they're intimate language. You use them with close friends, but it's still all within the realm of proper grammar
Not disagreeing, just clarifying
@theMatthgeek Not really Thee and Thou are used with people you know but also with children. Actually, the average peasant would call almost everyone though except nobles, while nobles would call other nobles you and peasants in the 3rd person.
All three of you are making it a bit more complicated than it needs to be. "You" would be the plural or formal address, used to superiors, strangers or groups of more than one. Thee and thou were the subject and object singular forms used among equals and to children. It's confused a bit by the typographical habit of using "Y" to replace thorn.
Actually when the Bible was written spoken English would literally not be understandable by any of us. That's Shakespearian English which is placed from around 1500-1700. The phrases thee and thou literally couldn't have existed back when the Bible was written both old and new testaments. These are words that come from translation and were never in the book in the first place, like when google translate adds more words to your translation so the person reading it can have an easier time reading it.
@AVibinGoose Yea, but Hebrew had personal and formal forms, too. idk about Greek
Love this and your Missionary ensemble. 🤓 Common Language is why I enjoy the Complete Jewish Bible translation, but I do also enjoy CSB, NIV, & NKJV & a number of others as well. As a Member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints I appreciate the respectful & informative nature of this.
joeseph smith was a fraud
I would like to say how much I enjoy this channel every time I get a chance. Now I respect you even more for being so polite and respectful to LDS beliefs instead of antagonistic like most. The Book of Mormon also contains a ton of hebraisms and other curious literary writing styles I'd love to see you analyze. Thank you for being a gentleman.
I agree
The book is a joke.
But, I guess the weak are meant to get wrapped up into cults.
@@-Felix-. Again, all I am saying is I appreciate his respect and kindness compared to most. I'm not preaching about it, and all I pointed out was that there were interesting things to find, when his regular videos primarily dealt with Hebrew and he has touched on a lot of religious things. So please play nice, no one wants to fight or argue with you.
You call this trash respectful? Everything about this is just targeting the church.
@@itsCombustify not really. It may sound a bit derogatory but in reality is just an external view of our religion.
Remember, he had the education level of a third grader.
At least he had something in common with his wives
Not true. The phrase described is three years of education… often, in his time, this vernacular referred to 3 years of education beyond primary school. Granted, the education then was still more limited than it is now, but he by no means had anywhere near as little as a 3rd grader
@talibytes Nope. He stopped school at the age of 8.
@@talibytes This is the LEAST of Smith's issues...
@@ricardoconqueso you’re definitely right that education is the least of his issues. I escaped this cult after starting to actually learn about him
As a Latter Day Saint I feel this was a fair, reasonable and informative. Instead of bashing you’re asking an honest question and creating a conversation. The real truth of the BOM is found in its testimony of Jesus as the Lord and Savior of us all. Thanks again!
We need a new version with brainrot slang
"on the second day got created the skibidi gyatt, and he saw it was fire fr"
We already had that with the original version
Do. Not. Do. That.
Ever.
Not for the book of Mormon but there is one for the bible. Look up "the word on the street bible." It's......something.
Edit: fixed the name to the appropriate title
When Joseph pulled up on the new Fortnite Map he saw some amazing gyatt's getting rizzed by the rizzler
The original Old Testament used simple and personal sounding language. The later translations made it fancier sounding and we often like to use older translations which compounds that idea. Christ, for instance, in the New Testament spoke simply as well. In retrospect it sounds fancy because it sounds biblical and has at times been made more prose-y by translators, but contemporarily he was a carpenter who performed miracles. He was a poor man by any economic measure and spoke intelligently but with the simple language you’d expect.
Source?
Slight correction. The language of the King James bible (which I assume you mean) was actually written in a lower more common form of English but we have come to associate the very informal
"thee" and "thou" as formal due to shifts in language (in part BECAUSE of the Bible).
@@juliaboon9741Yeah I was gonna say, the KJV may seem fancy to us but for the people in the 1600s it was seen as common speech.
@@juliaboon9741 Wait he is still talking about the English versions? I thought Original old testament meant the Hebrew and latin texts.😳
The gospels were written in the style of Hellenic high writing
As always you make a good point. I’m personally an atheist but I love your religious content. I feel like I always learn something from you; but you also leave me with a great question to ruminate on.
I grew up super Mormon and its so weird suddenly seeing you talking about the Book of Mormon lmao
Super Mormon, is that your version of Superman?
@@Opuskrokusit just means really deeply in the religion. Nothing magical.
@@Opuskrokusactually I think I saw a character similar to “Super Mormon” at a Utah comic convention, he got his powers from green jello if I remember right…
@@silverscapes9628 Wow, really? You're so clever.
@@currykingwurst6393 oh thank you! 😊 you’re so kind!
Tbf, a lot of the rough grammar from the bible was later scrubbed, and we know for a fact it was written that way
@@DustyGus yeah, but the authors of the Bible were divinely inspired, not divine or infallible themselves and not native Greek speakers. The Bible is an account of sacred events written by divinely inspired people, not the Word of God. In addition, many of the attempts to scrub wrong grammar from the Bible created errors on top of regular choices of grammar of the vernacular of that time. Keep in mind also that during that time the grammar of Greek was getting drastically simplified, resulting in huge problems when it came to deciding over a canonized language.
@@konstantinosvlachantonis2471 special pleading much?
@konstantinosvlachantonis2471 as a mormon, I'd like to point out that the book of mormon was also written by divinely inspired people.
The grammar errors may have even come from the original writers.
Idk, I'm not very versed in the secular history of the church. And the grammar isn't what I based my testimony on.
Sigh.
The only book of the Bible that has bad grammar is Revelation, which was written that way intentionally, rather like how Twain's and Faulkner's books contain many "errors." Even Revelation's poor grammar is often overstated.
Luke and Matthew are excellent writers whose Greek is typically quite good, with occasional variations indicating likely later revision. Hebrews is extremely intellectual, the equal of any Greek literature. Paul sometimes writes in a confusing and disorganized way, but is competent in the language. John's style is highly structured and designed for memorization - it's no surprise that many famous Bible verses are in John. Even Mark, the weakest writer of the New Testament, has a style that is more simple than erroneous. John is writing literature and Luke is writing a documentary, while Mark is writing an email.
@@konstantinosvlachantonis2471 Weren't some of the earliest New Testament books written initially in Aramaic and then translated into Greek?
Glad to see we finally made it in a mostly non-biased informative channel
Got a book of mormon ad right after this
the church is buying up alot of ad space, aren't they? XD
@WarrenCheskyTheFoxwiggins I get ads for the church basically only when I'm looking at stuff related to it. But I got like an almost 2 minute unskibbable byu ad on spotify.
I recommend checking it out. Good book it is.
@ThatSchneiderMan no thank you ive checked it out and id rather had not
@@TallTomatoe ok then. no need to poop on everyone's comment section experience
The original manuscript was written without any punctuation and without any chapter headings.
The printer made some arbitrary changes that weren't caught.
If you study history, this was not uncommon in many languages.
You look at Old Greek and Roman manuscripts and they write them without any spacing and it's continuous.
The same thing is true for Chinese and Japanese.
When I was young learning to read, Japanese drove me crazy though I spoke the language fluently. Nowadays, many publications in Japanese actually put small spaces but when I was learning there were still many publications which still ran the characters all together.
Well said
Fun fact a decent amount of the errors come from the copping the original translation to the printer’s manuscript, others are just following a more Semitic style than is acceptable in plane English, you can see this to be the case by looking at the original and printer’s manuscript online
Hey I'm on your side, but for the people who aren't, this sounds really confrontational. Would you revise the comment to sound nicer?
I don't want any more bad rep for Mormons than necessary
@andromedia8453 I don't think my comment is confrontational. It's highly factual. I'm not sure if you're replying to me or to someone else.
@@andromedia8453 It isn't the typographical errors that give Mormonism "a bad rep"
I've been watching your videos for a long time! I hope Ironland is still on the path to sovereignty. 😆 Two thoughts:
1) Even the Holy Bible has contextual errors, like the people traveling with Saul hearing and seeing in one account but not the other. So, let's disregard the idea that scripture is perfect.
2) There is a ton of context and information that would be impossible to have in the early 1800s when the Book of Mormon was written/translated. In my opinion, these types of grammatical errors are an indication that the words were translated by a man but the overarching principles, complex story lines and geography, anachronisms, etc. are evidence that strengthen the Book of Mormon's case. Also, there are a ton of awesome things in the Book of Mormon that Joseph Smith never knew about, and some things he just clearly misunderstood himself that are made pretty clear in the Book of Mormon. Which, is a further strength of the Book of Mormon. If I was using Hebrew parallelism in a book I was making up, I would probably want someone to "notice," but nobody ever did for over 100 years.
This better not be your only video with insights of the Book of Mormon. It would be great to hear your insights!
Great costuming choice!
Always a pleasant surprise to see an impartial and well-informed video about my faith. Well done! 👍🏻
And... you still follow it?
@@tomassmith1519 The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? Yes, with all my heart.
@@theoelliott5944 So... you just follow it due to strong religious conviction I suppose? Because all evidence till now points to Joseph Smith unfortunatly having just made it all up
Same :]
@@theoelliott5944 you are not much of a critical thinker….are you ?
Very impressed with your Royal Skousem Earliest Text Edition!
About 3 months ago he gave a 2-hour presentation on the channel The Interpreter Foundation. It was a fascinating dive into the critical text project, tracking all the changes that ever happened to it
I love how people will defend the Bible's errors and contradictions, but act like the Book of Mormon is different lol
They were pretty much written
the same way, some guy got a message from God and started to write it down, but one is accepted and believe and the other is ridiculed a lot more
@ChaosAngel9151 Exactly!
@@ChaosAngel9151 the Bible wasn't written by one guy. It's a collection of books written over centuries.
Thank you for saying this
@@ChaosAngel9151the bible is a summary of stories people told each other about things like Jesus. It's no direct book from god. The bible was made hundreds of years after Jesus so it's more loosely and has multiple versions
“…in *them* days” made me laugh way too much.
Latter-day Saint here. Happy to have this topic come up. Thanks, man!
imagine following a religion that some guy made like a hundred years ago.
@@Noble06DS Two hundred, also imagine scrolling this far down to be mean to someone.
@@Noble06DS It's the same religion
Another member here!
@@Noble06DS could do worse
as a member of the church, i am very impressed with how non-biased this video is
Even the comments are unusually respectful compared to most of the church-related videos I've seen:)
These comments are not even close to respectful. But yeah they are mild compared to other church related videos
Yea
Turns out bro has an unusual majority of Mormon followers. 😮😮😮
@itsCombustify oh these comments ARE respectful, believe you me. People are pointing out truths, but I haven't seen anybody being straight up hateful.
dude, that door bell got me that the guests had already arrived
There are many verses of… I think Helaman? Worrying about being judged for his poor writing.
Joseph had very little schooling and his wife Said he could barely write a letter.
Helaman sounds right. I want to say that there's a verse in there that says something along the lines of "don't blame God for my mistake" or something like that.
@@PizzaBombz Lots of "The weakness of our hands" from multiple authors.
Actually it was Moroni
@@Speedy500 RIGHT! I was recently reading both so i forgot which it was.
I like the point you raise at the end of the short, it's quite unbiased
@@themoonandthesea 110%
that is biased, if u dont find politics, politics will find u
@@polkunus unbiased... In regards to religion? Don't think politics and religion are meant to be mixed like you're imagining but idk
@ the clergy would like to have a word
Pandering to crazy people.
Glad you made the point about how grammar/language differs depending on your background. What is "grammatical" doesn't come from the void, but is based on whichever language variation we decided to codify, which more often than not is, like you alluded to, the language of aristocrats
I don't know about mormonism, but as a christian my thought is that the best case scenario for any part of the bible or related texts is to be divinely inspired, but still entirely the work of the very fallible humans who wrote it. God would never make such a simple error, but a prophet totally would they had tons of flaws.
*church of jesus christ of latter day saints*
@WarrenCheskyTheFoxwiggins while yes that is correct there are many worse people we could be called after than Mormon, he was a great man
Mormons are a bit different though, where they seem to believe that God didn’t just inspire the *translation* divinely but actually told the prophet what words to write
@@keegster7167not so. I’m sure some of our group believe that. But the text we have states he used a urim and thumim (spelling?) to translate. Which could be argued as God telling him what to write, but I’d argue it’s just god level tech, like google translate but better. Lol
@@keegster7167 Given the mockery of "Golden Bible", and the *translation* being the key component, I'm very curious where this keeps cropping up. Is it a fabrication? Who told you this?
I now want to own an original version.
They're super expensive!! But I've seen some cheaper reproductions of the original edition. ... Or did you mean the original one made of gold?
@@eetoved1758 probably talking about a first edition you can find online digitizations of the original and printer’s manuscripts, by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, you wouldn’t be able to read the Gold ones, as their reformed Egyptian, which is to say Egyptian cursive equivalent modified to convey the sounds and words of the Nephites, which is a language that has been lost for a long time
As a mormon,this is actually intersing
Well unless it was given in a printed form, I would assume that the grammar would depend upon the medium/receiver.
He read to people he knew (like Oliver Cowdrey and his wife Sarah) and they wrote it down as a scribe. Maybe they caused the spelling errors but the grammar was probably Joseph, considering he never went past a 3rd grade education
@yeeterdeleter0117 the spelling errors were actually introduced by the act of copying the original manuscript to the printers manuscript, you can look at both of them online, however you will still find grammar “errors” that exist because the Book of Mormon follows a more Semitic grammar structure so more and if or if ands or something, as well as some other things
The book of Mormon changed my life. If you're a serious person, read it and check out all the claims of truth and error, it will blow your mind.
Even the racism?
@@zombieponcho Tell me you've not read the book of Mormon without telling me you've not read the book of Mormon.
@clearstonewindows I was born into and grew up in the church. Pick and choose all you want.
@@zombieponcho But did you read the Book? It sounds like you've not.
@clearstonewindows I had to go to church activities almost everyday of the week, I'm well aware of the teachings of the church, beyond simply the Book of Mormon. If you're an adult Convert you have to read it yourself and study it yourself, what you learn is purely based on what you seek, if you grew up in the church then you were taught it like it was school. So yes, I've read the Book of Mormon more than once, cover to cover, with a lot of highlighted pages that I discussed many times. My second biggest issue with the church was that almost any time I questioned when something was conflicting I was scolded instead of people looking objectively at the information and considering what it may mean and pondering the conflicts and what it means for the teachings. It is what is it and we ought to be allowed to discuss mistakes without it being taken as an insult to the church.
Using the doorbell sound is just savage
As a Latter-day Saint (aka "Mormon") I appreciate how fair this reel is. I would point out that we don't claim that the scribe wrote everything down perfectly. However, I appreciate the respect you showed and love your work.
Long live Ironland 🎉
Infinite regress and Isaiah 43:10
It's unfortunate he didn't talk about the cult rituals stolen from the freemasons that are performed in the temple. Take your positions in the ritual every 30 minutes or sky daddy won't love you as much as the *more* righteous of his children.
You are blind and in the wrong religion. You don't even know your own history,, that plagiarizes from other religions you guys are a cult
@@codeation5862would you like more understanding surrounding Isaiah 43:10?
The conclusions you drew here aren’t exactly the most intuitive or common. The most common defense of grammatical errors is that they’re because the book was written down by a scribe, who’s prone to making grammatical errors, and then copied into a SECOND manuscript to give to the printer, which is prone to more mistakes, who then copied it a third time into what is now known as the first edition. That means the “translation” of the book went through 4 different fallible mediums prone to mistakes before making it into what is now the first edition.
Mormons don’t believe the Book of Mormon first edition came down from heaven, it was orated by Joseph and copied by a scribe. Many of these grammar mistakes aren’t found in the original manuscript and are errors from the printing manuscript + printers edition
Some aren’t even errors, some are just the fact that it was a translation of a Semitic language
It was in fact dictated by Joseph and written by a small succession of scribes including his wife, Emma, Oliver Cowdrey (both of whom were school teachers) and a few others. The grammatical errors had many places to slip in and be fixed and be made all over again.
...but that "original manuscript", mysteriously vanished, right?
@@groerhahn225 what? No, the original manuscript exists, just 2/3rds of it was destroyed by water damage. The skousin transcript is a transcript of the Book of Mormon using the original manuscript
@@groerhahn225 the part that “mysteriously” vanished was the 116 pages from the book of Lehi, which probably when printed likely would have doubled the length of the Book of Mormon. I put mysteriously in quotes because they were likely stolen and then altered, as there was at some point publication of something someone claimed were the lost pages but I wouldn’t trust the contents of that because 1 we don’t know the authenticity of it, 2 we don’t know how much that was altered
When ever I hear about the book of Mormon I can only think of that one south park episode
The Boof of Revelation, is said to be written poorly in Greek; "I notice that in neither language nor style does he write accurate Greek. He makes use of barbaric expressions and is sometimes guilty even of grammatical error". -Bart Ehrman
"In them days" works well in my local dialect. I remember the village was not happy when the vicar insisted we changed the Lord's prayer from "them that trespass against us " to "those who" .
Ways the name of your town, Ignorance?
Thanks. I picked it up again for the first time in years.
Thanks for making good unbiased content about our religion. Too often I see people of our faith being bombarded with unprovoked insults and this video is a great example of how to not agree with someone, but still be agreeable.
Listen, I respect you as a person, but I have to ask... why.
Out of every religion, Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, Satanism, Islam...you chose MORMONISM? Why?
@@LucienMahikaiwell, first of all, "Mormonism" isn't a thing because nobody worships Mormon. But I get what you're saying, I'm just being pedantic here.
Also, the LDS Church is quite literally a Christian religion, Jesus Christ being the center of it all.
I've seen so much hate for the LDS Church without any research. If you look into what we believe, you'll find that it's ultimately a Church of love and light.
Our Church is overall a good Church full of kindness. There is much fallibility of the members and the presidency, and due to this there are many people who have suffered from their dealings with our church.
In the end, though, the LDS doctrine is one of eternal progression. We strive to become better each day.
Me personally, I especially love the Church because of its view on Repentance and Family. People do not come into this world "fallen", and when we do inevitably fall, we can turn towards God again and again; and families can unite eternally.
If you're actually curious and not just being rhetorical, you might find the Articles of Faith an interesting topic to research, whether or not you agree with them.
I am curious though, what are your thoughts on the Church and why do you view it so negatively?
@@LucienMahikaiwhy do you have a gacha pfp
@theojake ...No comment.
@@LucienMahikai My other reply got deleted (or at least isn't showing up for me), but I'm curious as to why you view the Church negatively.
Also, in case my reply is actually gone, I chose the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints because of its doctrine on Repentance and Family.
When it comes to “divinely inspired” writings, I don’t believe HOW something is said is as important as WHAT is said.
I mean, divine should have some weight. If it can be ridiculed so easily and so low, what else could be wrong with that deity?
I wish people would just tell the history as it is, the guy completely left out the fact that Joseph would translate and Oliver Cowdery was the scribe to write it down. Obviously there was going to be grammar errors.
Joseph had a number of scribes with varying degrees of grammatical know
@ agreed
I speak a dialect similar to this, being from the Florida Panhandle. Im also firmly in the descriptivist linguist camp so I hesitate to call these “Errors”
The issue is that Joseph Smith was a known conman.
@@RaptorJesus Which is why people tried to come to his house and steal the golden plates while in his possession, right?
I mean, you regularly would go to steal things from a "conman" who claimed to have them, if you clearly knew they didn't. It's only logical.
The historical evidence of break-ins alone discredit that position, and that's available from court records of the day.
I'm sorry, the Book of Mormon has been brought up, so now people must have their brains turn off and become rabidly antagonistic. This is the way of the Mainstream Christian.
@@SlavicChautauquaneven if that position is taken, there is just straight bs in the Book of Mormon 😭😭
You have to be a fool to believe that Native Americans are descended from Jews, even though there has NEVER been evidence
@@SlavicChautauquan What are you talking about, and how is any of it relevant? He invented Mormonism, making him a conman.
Joseph didn't write the book he had someone write it for him while he read of the golden plates.
I like the subtle costume shift when delivering the "much workin' folk" line. Attention to detail!
I'd expect it to be written in whatever language was most easily comprehensible to the person receiving the book, and hand delivered by said being so that there was no doubt about its origins.
Yeah the printing press workers and the transcription to the printer’s manuscript wasn’t perfect, but you wouldn’t find most of those mistakes on the original manuscript, because they were copy errors mostly, others were actually because they were following a different grammar structure, a more Semitic grammar structure in the original manuscript
Yes
It’s fascinating how a lowly farm boy with little formal education could produce such a complex book in such a short time. If we accept that it was truly translated, this actually makes sense. How could an uneducated young man create intricate stories with distinct narrative voices corresponding to different supposed authors, yet still struggle with grammatical perfection during the writing process? It almost seems as though the imperfections lie in the translation process, the part Joseph himself claimed responsibility for.
So we should just IGNORE all the errors in the 1830, 1981, and 2013 editions in the Book Of Mormon?
As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon Church), I love this short. It is not attacking or promoting, just explaining something you found interesting and presenting an unbiased opinion on!
Yeah but do you really care about your own history that it's a false history.
Your church is fake and crazy
Exactly! And almost no comments attacking us.
It is just the comments attacking are religion
Yes!
Joseph didn't even write the script. He had three scribes that hand wrote what they received verbally from Joseph Smith. How come this wasn't mentioned in this video? The three scribes were Martin Harris, Oliver Cowdrey and Emma Smith. The grammar errors could have been simply from the handwriting. Furthermore, the introduction written by the hand of Joseph even states that if there are errors they are errors of men.
found the cultist lol
I’m a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (or commonly known as the Mormon church, although this is not the true official name but that’s ok) and I would encourage everyone to read and ponder the Book of Mormon and pray and ask Heavenly Father if it is true! That’s how I received my answer it is, that’s the only way you can truly know! God bless everyone ❤
To be fair, even the oldest extant Hebrew texts have occasional grammatical errors. It would be kind of a double standard to criticize one but not the other.
Are the oldest extant Hebrew texts the first ones to be written at all or are they copies already? I think the book of Mormon is one of the few claimed religious books that we actually have the first version of. And do Jews actually claim those original texts were directly divinely dictated, or a human describing of events?
It’s almost like let’s see if we both get there all these religious books are man made.
Yeah I’m from England and people say “In them days” all the time, it’s correct grammar in some dialects
I think its a good reminder that the book of Mormon has errors, the authors of the book of Mormon were human and mentions to my knowledge at least twice in the text of the possibility of errors. Let alone it was translated by a very uneducated person leaving the possibility for errors like this very likely.
And at the end of the day we should ask question does a book having grammatical erros remove any possibility that its true?
Oh, it's not just grammar that makes people skeptical.
Typically it's the critics' own lack of intelligence that makes them skeptical. *Way* too many amazing things that an intelligent person wouldn't just write off.
@@GldnClaw Unless you're part of any group that mormons want to persecute.
@@GldnClawoh, so anyone who doesnt believe in your church isn't as intelligent? That's not a christlike thing to say, now is it?
Like the fact that he had sex with 14-year-olds?
@GldnClaw Or maybe it's the historical inaccuracies (the book of Mormon says that Native Americans came from Israel, which isn't true), the fact that Joseph Smith was a known conman, the fact that the secret handshakes to get into heaven are from Freemasonry (a human organization), or the convenient changing of doctrine with the times as things are proven wrong or become socially unacceptable, despite the fact that Mormonism teaches that god is unchanging.
There are a lot of reasons people don't believe it's true.
And even if it was, many people don't like how abusive the church is and historically/unapologetically has been.
this is so crazy to be on my feed my brother just got back from his mormon mission TODAY hes been home for 2 HOURS
Awesome! My brother got back from Chile last month. Where did your brother serve?
@@espetharthemighty1967 Santiago, Domician Republic!
@@espetharthemighty1967lmao “where did he serve” shit ain’t iraq man lmao
@@Noble06DS It's called "Serving a Mission." Because you go out. And you serve. Rather than serving your country, you go serve other people. In fact, one type of mission, a Service Mission, is entirely based around that. Just helping people. Mowing their lawns. Pulling weeds for them. Whatever. And rather than the government paying you for it, you pay. If it's a Service Mission, you basically just live with your family and you have to pay. If you go on a Proselyting Mission you pay a set amount and the church divvies out funds based on how expensive it is to live in a certain area. Not sure how much they subsidize but iirc you pay like 12k ($500 per month) or something and that somehow lasts two years? I mean, some stuff is provided by communities, but I'd be kinda surprised if the church didn't help pay somehow.
@ so a hostel with chores?
The bible today: ayo fam ight so murder? Not skibidi dawg
God said let there be light and it was fire yo
Grilled cheese 🙂
Thank you
Putting a doorbell sound randomly in a video should be a federal offense.
Spelling and vocabulary rapidly evolve, sometimes within the span of a single generation. There also exist variances of linguistics depending on the region and culture especially prior to the standardization of grammatical usage taught in institutions of education. Therefore, it is a reasonable argument that the original usage and text is the correct format as it set the precedent.
Hey I’m a member of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and I thought this was neat.
I definitely recommend reading the Book of Mormon, especially if you believe in Jesus Christ, as it will definitely strengthen your faith in Him.
A lot of fiction books have grammar errors
People are so quick to call the Book of Mormon made up but how would you explain the many instances of chiasmus found in the book? This is a poetic writing style that was discovered in the Bible well after the Book of Mormon was published.
If you have been on the internet long enough, you understand that Satan never allows people to give the Book of Mormon a fair Shake. They must always turn their brains off and be rabid in their antagonism.
The literary technique of chiasmus (repeating a pair of phrases with similar meanings in reverse order) can occur randomly if you just ramble about stuff and try to sound mysterious and important. It's been used for as long as humans have been writing because it's just one of the dozens of ways to arrange words into patterns that that sound appealing. It was used by Shakespeare, the ancient Greeks, and even the ancient Mayans.
To put a fine mathematical point on it, I would explain the instances of chiasmus in the Book of Mormon as simply random coincidence, made statistically likely by what is commonly referred to as "p-hacking": if you want to find something statistically significant (usage of a "special" technique or reference) and there's a 1% chance of it happening randomly, just look for dozens of different literary techniques and the chance that _one_ of them will be significant is much higher.
You think Joseph randomly re-created the Hebrew chiasmus, endemic to BC Jerusalem? And that we are fools for finding that meaningful?
@magneticflux- Midwit! We got a Redditoe Midwit here!
@@magneticflux- There is an entire CHAPTER (Alma 36) in the Book of Mormon that is a chiasmus, not just a few versus that can be written off as statistically insignificant. To call entire chapter "random coincidence" is ignoring the importance you yourself are placing on statistics.
27 missed letters from the English teacher.
He never went past 3rd grade, had to do farm work
As a member, I remember learning Joseph Smith only received 3 years of schooling as a kid, so I guess that's self-explanatory? To me this makes it even more impressive how the first edition wasn't any worse than some grammar mistakes.
I just finished reading the Book of Mormon. It testifies of Christ, brings the spirit and is a true book of scripture!
Another relevant point, Joseph Smith had very little formal education and also used several different scribes of various education levels when first putting the Book of Mormon to paper. Which scribes were responsible for which parts? Did they accurately copy exactly what he said (meaning the error was Joseph's) or was the scribe the source of a particular error? Or was the error the result of the printer struggling with someone's handwriting or just having a bad day?
tbh it’d be nice if we had a unified language or could at least understand everyone else so that way we could have religious texts with no loss from translations. oh wait
Yeah god kind of shot themselves in the foot a bit there with the whole tower of babal thing. Probably should have thought that though or not have gotten annoyed at humans working together well enough to build a tower.
His divine help was him sticking his head into a magic hat.
I think the anachronisms outweigh the grammar mistakes by a long shot
Like concrete or horses? haha
@@clearstonewindows ...There's archeological evidence of horses existing in America before Columbus. I don't know why nobody ever Googles that. It's a point I've seen so much but I've literally met the grandson of the guy who originally discovered them.
@VagrantCrusader also the natives said they had horses and also had horses.
Why would the Book of Ether being at the end of the book matter at all? Or are you talking about the weirdness with the transition from Omni to Words of Mormon, to Mosiah, because if that’s it, then that’s just because of the 116 lost pages, if you are talking about technology, it has been discovered that ancient Americans had cement and most of that stuff mentioned in the Book of Mormon, but lost it over time, because for some reason in America older ruins are significantly better made and engineered and the Sword of Jericho exists and was from around the same time period as Lehi and his family leaving Jerusalem, and it was determined to be made of steel, but steel could literally be referring to metal or metal alloy as it does in the Bible.
@@Speedy500 "fossil records show that [horses] became extinct on the American continent approximately 10,000 years ago"
Other anachronisms:
- elephants
- domestic cattle
- domestic goats
- pigs
- steel and iron (NA metallurgy where known was bronze and gold mostly)
- chariots
- a compass
- glass windows
- metal swords (there's little evidence of metallurgy, and none of swords)
- scimitars
- references to "Christ", and knowledge of him being the Son of God, Lamb of God, etc.
- Greek names
- church and synagogue
... And so forth
-
god probably would speak to them in Minecraft enchantments. That’s my headcanon.
I don't see the logic behind obsessing over whether or not a native English speaker has made grammatical errors in his book.
Every dialect of a language has its own lexicon and grammar and exceptions to grammatical rules. It's literally what the people speak
It's god's words alledgedly, not native english speaker ones. So it begs the question why god would provide texts with a mix of standard English and dialect/slang and language mistakes.
It's because the book of mormon claims to be a translation of a thousands year old tablet form God.
(Ie just plain old made up)
That makes sense for some of the mistakes like “them” and “much” but he straight up misspelt stuff, that is not regional dialects that is bad grammar
Because he's not the one writing or translating the text. It was supposedly written by a native American and then God translated it into English for Smith.
So it is suspicious when most of the text sounds like God, but then a few parts sound like Joseph Smith.
Isn't they who want to keep their marriages in heaven, even Jesus sayin that in angels place nobody get married? The pharisees would like mormonism a lot....
In the LDS church, you get married on earth, and then in heaven, you would already be married. Maybe research before you speak, and try to free yourself from bias.
As I understand, that is one of many beliefs peculiar to the LDS church that is not actually in the Book of Mormon.
Now that I reread Matthew 22:30 compared to Stumation's comment, I can see how they could justify the belief, kind of. I wouldn't personally interpret the scripture that way though. I think it misses the whole point of the story of the Saducees coming to Jesus.
I like how the arguement is "what grammar would God use" and not "would God even use English"
if the Book of Mormon had been published flawlessly, Mormons might fall into the same solo scriptura trap
the tremendous introduction, publication, (revelation), history, and faith of the Mormon people is a much more interesting note.
Me: Finally! Someone online is seeing this religion from both sides!
Also me: Checks comments (Why must it be like this?)
You don't want to hear both sides from the comments?
@charliebertrand6028 You don't hear both sides from the top comments. The two top comments are both jokes at the religion's expense. I do enjoy having multiple opinions, including opposing ones, but not when that's the only one everyone sees.
Thats a cool use of a religious text. And a way cool question! I mean it really asks a bigger question which is how do you view your deity? An untouchable unfeeling God or living, breathing, and involved. It more wild that people say that they believe in the same God as Abraham but they all view that being differently, so is that god the same one?
Yeah, god is unchanging. God is who god is. But mortal comprehension and understanding? Absolutely yeah you can think of god in infinite ways. And almost all of them are wrong or not the full picture. We can't truly know god. He is above our understanding. But we can know his intentions. His love for us.
South parks episode about Mormons has all you need to know
I still can't fucking believe that South Park got both Mormonism and Scientology correct, Just goes to show how absolutely batshit insane they are
What's funny is the grammatical errors written from that time period sounds so normal in modern slang.
- "them days" is either gangsta/hood grammar or jamaican grammar
- "much horses" is basically memespeak from the early 2010's
In Watchmen the comic, they discuss Dr. Manhattan and reference “God is real, and he is American.”
This notion absolutely blew my mind. Would God even speak English? Would God be able to communicate? Would he be able to speak to you perfectly as you speak since he is omnipotent? What God’s chosen species was penguins or otters and he just likes watching them all day? What if God revealed himself to an isolated tribe in the Amazon that has legitimate scripture no one else has seen..
I like bread
Same
God would make his message clear to all that heard it and I believe that the Book of Mormon is extremely clear. A lot more clear then the Bible at least
Both are useless unfortunately. God is not only made up, he's awful as a because he can't prevent any harm on Earth even though he's supposed to be a super powerful being. He doesn't give a damn about humans since so many die and suffer from diseases or wars he would have created.
@@wildchameleon7 the point of life isn’t for it to be perfect. That’s what heaven is for. The point of life is to persevere through suffering and to gain experiences. I’m sorry that you view god the way you do but god does love you and care for you and I am confident you will understand everything when you die and truly know god.
@@wildchameleon7 well when you give your children the ability to make their own decisions, their lives will become hard. Which is why He has Prophets and Apostles to guide us as a people, His children. It is an extension of His love. I invite you to talk to Heavenly Father and learn how much He loves you.
As soon as you see the white, short sleeve shirt and black tie, you know what’s happening.
Translating words from a divine being is never easy
A divine being could just choose their words more carefully... But they would have to exist to do that.
@@bcg6760Do you think it makes more sense for an intelligent being to have created a habitable, beautiful planet like Earth, perfectly fine tuned to support intelligent human life, or for stuff to just start existing for no reason?
God is all-powerful and all-knowing. I'm sure he could think of a better plan.
Especially when you make it up.