Electrical Inspection, Did it pass rough-in 🤔
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 พ.ย. 2024
- Residential electrical inspection on this 3000 square foot home in Eden Maryland. Did I pass my rough in inspection 🤔 ?
Special thanks to George Landing of Maryland Electrical Inspections for starring in his first ever appearance on a TH-cam video. Temperature this morning was fairly cold at 20 to 25° We 🥶both🥶were feeling the effects of it!
Thank you all for sticking around to watch my video. If you all thought this was helpful in any way please give me a 👍 and consider subscribing to channel for Future electrical videos on my channel. Thanks and God bless you all!
![Rough Electrical Inspection [Residential CEC/NEC] Part 2](/img/n.gif)
Thanks Ron for the great advice keep the videos coming and may have some other questions as I proceed with my basement project.🇺🇸👍
Nice neat workmanship, the way I like to see it done.
Homeowner here, I found this video very educational. Never done an inspection before and now I know what to expect, what to look for and what the inspector is looking for. Thank you
Thanks for watching Brian. I really appreciate the compliment 👍👍. I glad it helps you
But kudos. Good work.
Ron good video and yes we all miss thing once in a while. The codes are always changing and it’s hard to keep up sometimes. Looks like you have a very good inspector to work with which helps tremendously. I’ve been in the trade for almost 40 years and I’m always learning something new about our trade all the time. Keep up the good work.
I've a saying, "I only miss something on days that end in "y" in English". Hence, why I've always valued another set of eyes and an inspection, be it a network security inspection or an electrical inspection.
It's too easy to miss something that'd get really expensive, really quick once everything is finished.
I found your channel by researching electrical layout for a future home build. I enjoyed the walk-thru & inspection videos.
Keep up the great content!
Thanks for watching and commenting 👍🏻 I really appreciate it and I'm glad you like the video.
I’ve never seen an inspector to be that thorough before
Thanks for watching and the comment 👍
I've had to deal with 5 different electrical inspectors since i started in years past. George is by far the most thorough🧐 electrical inspectors I've had the opportunity to met. He also teaches at the Wor-Wic community college and code classes on the weekends. He is very hard worker. And tries his best to make sure things are done right to the NEC codes.
@@workingmanrondoyle3287 a Sharpie to mark? I've always used a lumber keel.
I do love inspectors like George, they save expenses down the road, when everything's finished in.
the inspector who inspects my wiring does that too-he pulls the mast-meterbase-panelbox etc
@@afzalhakeen4941 Yeah but that’s a problem… inspectors like that follow the rule to close, sometimes it’s safer to make an exception to the rule based on the circumstance…But you can never tell him that
Yeah, me neither. 40 years in the trade, 25 as a licensed ME EC.
Ron, I’ve been a substation electrician for 22 years and retired and need to learn about house rough in wiring. I’ve just found your channel today and watched two videos already. Excellent work. Thanks for sharing.
Thanks for watching and commenting. I'm glad you liked the videos. I'll be doing more of them as time goes on Thanks for subscribing 👍
Educational
Great job 👏
Nice job. I'm at the rough in stage of a second story addition right now and have a loft scenario just like this. I hadn't considered in-floor receptacles but will be adding them after seeing this. Thanks for the idea!
Thanks for watching and commenting. I appreciate it 👍🏻
❤ With a house, this nice it should have have a central vacuum roughed in.
Great job! I hope the home owner will understand the reason you had to add the floor outlets.
Great Video! My goal is to become a electrician this year!
Education thanks
I enjoy watching your videos.Coming from a fellow electrician, this is a Super clean wiring job.
Thank you fellow sparky, I really appreciate the compliment 👍👍. Thanks so much for watching. I appreciate it.
Educational, thank you
Is this video ( educational)??
educational
Both
We always short out all 3 conductors at the end of any buried tails (for later retrieval) of NM - like sconces, to-be-located-at-time-of-table-installation chandeliers & special custom cut outlets - to prevent accidental energization of a loose end if the tail gets forgotten about or abandoned. For example, many architects want the exterior sconce base canopies centered in the coarse of siding. I’ve seen sliders roughed for a sconce on either side with tails buried for later retrieval with only one of the sconces actually being installed in the end.
Another thing we do is use a sharpie to label the tail “1 of 1” for a single tail and “1 of 2” and “2 of 2” for a pair of in-and-out tails. This makes sure you know it their is another wire to be retrieved when routing around through box hole looking for wires that may or may not be there buried in the fiberglass bats. Foam… that’s a game changer for the worse. Foamed houses get preset boxes only.
Thanks for watching and commenting. I really appreciate you sharing in the comments. Please comment anytime.
That is the first electrical inspector in the history of electrical inspectors to whip out a screw driver and pull the panel cover his self
Thanks for watching and commenting 👍🏻. He was a very respected electrical inspector. He passed away mid 2022😥. He is greatly missed.
I am surprised in your State that they don't require you to have all your boxes made up for rough-in. That would never fly here in Oregon. Here they want to make sure all your ground wires are connected properly at the rough-in stage. They do not want to have to pull face plates and devices to check that at final. In Oregon, inspectors don't want to see any more than two NM Cables through a hole. They are also not fond of multiple NM cables under one staple. They would prefer cable stackers in those situations. Remember guys, the NEC is a minimum only. Your State and local are allowed to make the code more stringent. Thanks, Russ Raetzman, 27 years in the Trade.
Thanks for watching and commenting 👍 The electrical inspector and I have had this discussion about making connections up after the fact. He told me nowhere in code it mentions it and they can enforce it. He's allowing me to make up my connections on final. And he also encourages it due to the painters over spraying the wires in the boxes. As to the topic of two NM wires under one staple, my inspector allows this due to manufacturers instructions.
It's also so much nicer to have everything done and ready for devices. Trim out is a breeze and no mess at all.
@@phi5head Inspectors are not permitted in any jurisdiction to change the code as they see fit. Different jurisdictiions can make changes to the NEC, if the NEC is adopted, following mandated steps that are made law in Administrative portion. which is the legal (law)portion. 1. The changes are more restrictive. 2. The changes are approved by a board, then they have to be posted so all license holders filing can locate them. I know, there are some jurisdictions that allow electrical work performed by other than licensed persons.
Great video! Def educational for myself. I been in the trade for some time but not an expert in residential.. ( more comercial / industrial) as I just obtained my contractors (masters) electrical license.. and a majority of the work coming in is residential.. still yet to do a house from the ground up on my own.. hope to see the trim portion of this project.
Thanks for watching and subscribing,Steven. Congratulations on obtaining your master electrician license 👍. I've got a trim out walkthrough video on this house if your interested in watching it.
Great vid.
Thanks for watching Luis. I appreciate the compliment ❤️
2020 code in our area requires an emergency disconnect, usually a 200 amp breaker. to be installed at the meter location for first responders, making the inside panel a subpanel.
Thanks for watching and commenting. Your absolutely right about that. Maryland is still on 2017 code whish this video is based on.
@@workingmanrondoyle3287 That's what I figured. Mass is always up to date. We're on 2023. I like the idea of killing power outside because the available fault current on the live panel inside is seriously less than the fused transformer outside. Not that it matters to DIYers. They are probably going to play in the panel more now.
Man this inspector is super thorough!!!
Yes! Very thorough! George Landing was one of a kind! He passed away a month ago😥. I was hoping to do a lot more videos with him on electrical education training and etc. He is greatly missed 😥Thanks for watching M Carroll 👍
@@workingmanrondoyle3287 I just found your channel and really enjoy your content. I am an electrician as well, I really like when I see people perfect their craft.
I’m sorry to hear about your inspector, I wish more of them were like him and hold electricians to high standards!
@@workingmanrondoyle3287 RIP Mr George, he was a great inspector.
he is looking for some $$$$$
😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊
Educational - I am working on a major home remodeling and beginning to rough in the electrical and just looking for any tips and advice as I prepare.
all ceiling boxes are to be fan-rated only smoke detectors can be plastic. Very nice job only thing I don't see firestop on the holes where the wire was run.
Your right 2020 NEC. This video was on 2017 in Maryland. Firestop is done by another company. Not the electrician job to call and fire stop. Thanks for watching and commenting 👍🏻
Cool beans bother. I do work for a contractor they do all the fire caulking.
I know George landing. He is good.
I always do my joints at rough in. Easier, allows you to double check your circuits, since you can visually see them(wouldnt need to mark that floor jack either, I just wouldn't joint it, or just did it and capped the wires at floor jack). Anytime I don't see joints on a job I took over at trim out. Then Its normally shady work. But your work is really good. Actually never seen an electrician that didn't do their joints, that actually did good work. Its normally my sign that I need to charge more for the work :]
Thanks for watching and commenting. The past inspector I had, didn't require the boxes being made up on rough-in. No code to enforce this much heated topic 🤔
The new inspectors are requiring at least the grounds being done on rough-in.. This creates an all new set of issues to work through. (Physical wire damage)
😥 Between Drywallers and painters using my stripped wire to hold portable lights, radios,coats, hats,calk guns and blue tooth speakers from switch locations 🤯. When their done they won't push the wires back in the boxes far enough and will rotozip the wires🤯. Painters are air spraying everything. I have to scrape the grounds and clean off the caulk before terminating the switches due to them using my wires as caulk prickers.. I'm looking into getting 16ga. 2,3,4 gang metal covers made up , to prevent such damages.
@@workingmanrondoyle3287 if you do your joints at rough-in stage. You will have way less chance of your wire flopping out, than if you didn't joint it at rough-in. For your not rolling it in against stiff jacket. its wires bending like a spring that simply stay in. the jacket can make them pop out more so. Ive never had a receptacle I jointed pop out, unless someone pulled it out.
Is no NEC code for it. Cities demand it or don't.
Try it next time. Just do your joints at rough-in. Its easier in multiple ways. When you hit trim out faze, you'll have a grin on your face installing those receptacles first time. Especially for switches. Just twist together the wires for each switch after doing your neutral/ground joints, in the location in box for that switch. No labels needed then. I can have just about anybody installing at trim out, within minutes, due to that.
Yep. Loft rails are considered useable wall space. I cannot tell you how many jobs I bid on where the other bidders don’t add those; architects usually don’t know to CAD those floor outlets in the plans. This can make ones price higher than others, and many times an argument ensues with the owner claiming they will never use them. We bury tails/loops for them -usually loops- and retrofit round floor outlets in later. Sometimes I’m forced to do that because the architect and/or owner refuses to pay for them. When it gets picked up on final, they get retrofitted as a change order.
And… I like the flush LEW 812-DFB ones. Especially in the middle of a floor. It’s more work to install but a much better job.
GOOD JOB OVERALL!!!
Thanks for watching and the input. I greatly appreciate it. Please chime in anytime.
Nice workmanship but nothing tailed off
In wi. It's required that way you'll know if u missed something and guys can't miss match neutrals if more ine circuit in same box
A lot faster on the finish tail off at rough in !!
Thanks for watching and commenting. There is nothing wrote in the Nec about tying neutrals and grounds before rough-in inspection. It is rules of the inspection agencies that your using. I never had to do this until the inspector I used suddenly assed away. Now that I'm using two different agencies, they both require it being done before I call them for a rough-in inspection.
👍 👍
What most people seem to forget, although the codes may seem overly picky, they were written in blood. Not to be dramatic, but it's true.
Ron what height do you install your switches and outlets. I am finishing my basement and thinking of switches at 48 inches to top of boxes and 16 inches to the top of my outlets.
Hey Larry, that's exactly what I nail my boxes at. The only time I change that is when ADA standards are required on a case by case bases.
Sir I have a question , What is the name or what kind of wood do you use to establish the meter base?
Thanks for watching and commenting. The sheathing material used mostly in the United States is 7/16"OSB
WHAt is the measurement for the smoke detector from wall in ceiling , bed room and living room .The floor outlet measurement from edge
Thanks for watching and commenting. I install most of my smoke detectors on the ceiling when possible. Most of the small hallways screw with this plan if there's a bathroom doorway in the hall and
( it has a shower).= Smoke detectors need to be at least 48" away!
Smoke detectors have to be at least 48" away from air returns, ceiling fans and 12" down from ceiling and 12" away from inside corners =due to
smoke roll. Another 🤔 topic for another video. Outlets have to be no more than 6' from a entrance door's edge in living spaces. And on every wall 24" wide nor greater in width. I hope that answers your question. Let me know.
Could hear what comments George was making. No gfci breakers? What was George checking at the outside ground.
Thanks for watching James and commenting. I looked into getting lapel 🎤 microphones and found no one makes them for smartphones yet. I'm hoping to get monetization this year which will enable me to get an SLR camera with lapel mics and other equipment to shoot better video. George was checking ground resistance on the rods. 25 ohms or less is the target 🎯 he's looking for. There were no GFCI breakers available during this job. I had to install all GFCI outlets at the locations needed.
How do you get a rough inspection without any splices or grounds made up in boxes?
Thanks for watching and commenting. Having grounds made up for the (purpose of an electrical inspection) are not a code requirement. But rather an electrical inspector's requirement. George Landing of Maryland Electrical inspection did not require them being done on rough in. Because he would check it out on the final by removing cover plates.
Were you required to de rate the cables coming out of the breaker panel as you have them running along grouped so close together?
Thanks for watching, No, to the question of wire derating. I've had four different inspectors over the years do inspections for me. The only thing that keeps coming up is where the NM wire goes through a hole that has to be spray foamed commonly known as fire blocking/fire stop.This can play a big part to hot spots in wiring .One other inspector had requested I use oversized straps to secure them to ceiling joist. So as there are not grouped tightly together. Hopefully that answers your question.
Did he check for afci breakers in all dwelling areas?????
Thanks for watching and commenting on the video. Yes, he did. No stones left unturned. He was a great inspector.
Fire suppression in a private residence? Interesting. Here, only on 3rd floors and up w/o fire escapes
What county and or State are you working in?
No circuit breakers in for rough in?
Thanks for watching and commenting.great question, only one is required by code for temporary power. I use 2 due to the spaces square D knocks out.
I stuff cardboard in the outlet boxes just to help protect the wires
Thanks for watching Don. I love the idea of using cardboard 👍🏻👍🏻
I was under the impression that all receptacles had to be on 20 amp circuits.
I don't understand why anyone wouldn't want that.
Why would the floor receptacle "box" be so long?
Thanks for watching and commenting. Good question. Most electrical appliances don't need 20 amps in a residential setting except garages, kitchen, laundry and bathrooms. 12 gauge wire cost more and is harder to work with. I've done houses in the past that the customer requested it.
Is a homeowner allow to do the service drop?
Thanks for watching and commenting. Here in Maryland, they put a stop to homeowners doing their own Electrical work a few years ago.
the extra hallway plugs make no sense. in canada its a plug in every hallway, about every 14 feet in any direction. i did enjoy the video though thanks
Your probably mistaken for what those are. They don’t look like constant receptacles they are stair lighting. Those will be trimmed out with lights to add ambiance lighting on the staircase. Your welcome
@willpartin622
3 hours ago
HELP! I'm replacing an old Federal Pacific 100-amp panel with a 200-amp Square D Hameline panel, so I will need to upgrade the service entrance cable and want to use 2/0 THHN copper.
The outdoor meter can/box is mounted low, (30" off the ground at bottom edge of can) outside, so if I use the bottom rear 2-inch knockout of the meter can, it will put the hole through the wall below the bottom edge of the new breaker panel by about 8 inches, so I will have to make a vertical 90 upwards turn from hole in wall to bottom knockout of the new panel. I cannot find a 2" close 90 PVC electrical fitting so I'm guessing they don't make one.
My question is: how do I make that vertical 90 turn upwards? It will eventually be covered in drywall. Do I need to have the inside copper leads in conduit at all? If I use switch to 4/0 aluminum, do I need conduit inside the wall cavity? thanks in advance!
The first thing I would as you is , what code cycle is your area using. Here in Maryland we're still on 2017. When we go to the 2023 Nec. We're required to install a service disconnect after the meter socket. This may also apply in your area? Make sure the old meter socket is rated for the 200 amp upgrade and is in good shape. If your running new feeds to the new panel inside and your on the older code cycle that doesn't require a service disconnect=your panel from the meter socket need to be on adjacent walls in relation to each other. To answer your questions. You have a few choices. If your going with copper single stranded conductors. It has to be in conduit or Greenfield . They don't make close 90° in conduit. You could adjust the meter height to your needs if your not in a flood plain and that your abiding by the utility companies checklist on height requirements for meter sockets. This spread sheet can be obtained from your local utilities company upon request from their engineer. If you choose to use PVC for this application you could use an LL or an LR to get a tighter radius. But you'll need to install an access door so as the conduit door is accessible for future use. The cheaper option is using 4/0 SEU aluminum feeder cable. Then use large nail protection plates inside the wall cavity. Let me know if you have other questions.
thank you so much for that information! I don't know if we are under 2017 or newer. If we have to install an outside emergency switch, it will have to be above the meter and I don't know if that's permitted @@workingmanrondoyle3287
@@willpartin622 There are a couple of meter sockets with an attached service disconnect. There great for tight spaces. If you go this route, make sure it's labeled (service rated equipment) and check with your utility provider to make sure it's approved.
I have a question about hooking up a meter socket and panel using 350 kcmil cable. The lugs won't accept that size cable. What can I do here? Use a pin adaptor? cut several strands out until the cable fits? Thank you
Thanks for watching Chad. The Millbank 200 amp underground meter socket in this video will accept 350 wire. Shaving wires off for them to fit under lug terminals is not the ideal thing to do. If you install a meter trough below the meter socket you will have ample room for splicing lugs to downsize your wire to fit the smaller lug terminals in other brands of meter pans from those (extended run).
I assume that's why your wire size is so large. I hope that answers your question.
Is this video (Entertainment)??
"within 18"of the wall
Is it code to have a window at the foot of the stairs?😳
Thanks for watching and the comment. No, not at all. I asked the owner why there was a window at the base of the stairs? He replied, to keep the windows symmetrical on the front of the house. One had to go there. They ended up putting window film on it as an alternative to the code requirement for tempered glass in that location.
Shouldnt the bare ground to meter be in a conduit
Thanks for watching and commenting. The bare copper has to be exposed for the sole purpose of installing the code required group bound block. But a great question. Thank you.
10 feet apart between ground rods? I thought it was 6’
Your right! There is a 6' minimum rule. Most electrical engineers will say twice the length of the ground rod which is 16' for optimal performance. Thanks for the comment, it's a good one👍
i think that the rods have to be at least 6ft apart. i usually keep them at least 8ft apart.
and i don,t know of any elec inspector in Louisville , that actually tests the rods for low restiance..
Thanks for watching Rodger you're absolutely right the minimum is 6 ft apart. The electrical inspector I use recommends they be twice the length of the rod to get a better ohm's reading. Due to the rods being in a different circumference.
The only reason the inspector was that “thorough” is he knew he was boing to be a TH-cam star.
Thanks for watching 👍
But your statement is far from the truth. George Landing was always overly thorough with his inspections. Many electricians admired him for being a stickler for wanting and having it done right. That's the whole reason he became an electrical inspector to start with. Very sad 😥 to see him pass away just a few months ago. He will be greatly missed in the electrical field!
Do you do pigtails on your receptacles?
Thanks for watching and commenting 👍🏻. I do, when required. For example 3 qty. 14-2 or
3 qty. 12-2 NM's in a box with a outlet installed.
@@workingmanrondoyle3287 Ok. My boss has us pigtail all recepts that have 2 cables or more. We make up our boxes at rough in phase. I also prefer that method and the other reason is many inspectors here in South Florida want to see the conductors ready to go for installing the devices at rough in phase. They also want to see that grounds are bonded already when metal boxes are used. Basically when trim out comes, all I need to do is just strip the wires, bend hooks and connect devices. The only down side is drywallers could possibly damage conductors in the box since the box is already made up.
@@workingmanrondoyle3287 You're welcome. I like to see how others do it. I am wiring a 20,000 square foot mansion and it's a very detailed project and the owners keep changing their mind on things.
@@illestofdemall13 Your absolutely right. I've had problems with the drywaller's and the painter's. George Landing was the only inspector that would let electricians do it on trim-out. He left that decision up to us. I'm said he's gone. 😥
@@illestofdemall13 WOW, that's a big one! Sounds like a bunch of change orders coming your way. Good luck to you. I hope that goes smoothly.
Am I seeing CPVC? That's surprising for a 2-year-old house.
Thanks for watching and commenting. I would say 99% of all the residual houses on the eastern shore have cpvc piping. And the houses that don't are converting to it over time.
@@workingmanrondoyle3287 Really?? My 1994 house is all CPVC. And that stuff is BRITTLE. It's fine as long as I don't touch it. But kid gloves are required when mods are needed. I thought EVERYONE was moving from CPVC, to PEX. Especially for new construction.
Pex is making a comeback around here but not as popular as cpvc .
Yes, really. This area had two large home manufacturer years back and Pex is all they used, hooked to a Man-o-block valve system. Over time the these systems failed causing lots of mixed feelings about Pex piping causing damages. Most plumbers in this area don't like or use Pex now.
Here, they make you derate bundled wires running through giant holes
I had conversations with the past 6 inspectors I've used in this matter. All of them had the same opinion on the amount of wires going through one oversized hole. They all said as long as they're not tight and spray foam is not tight around them.
Yeah, around here it all depends on which inspector you get. You’ve got a hate that spray foam as an electrician
@@nukiepoo Ya , if I see spray foam around a group of my wires going through an oversized hole, I'll peal some of it out and make sure the wire can move a bit. That's if it's not already covered up with rock!
interesting so electricians care if the panel gets dirty but won't pick up a broom to save their lives.
Thanks for watching Adam. I have to sweep up after every job. I'm not saying I like doing it, but it's just got to get done.
@@workingmanrondoyle3287 I'd suggest you to get a Rack-A-Tiers exploding garbage can and throw the trash in it as you go and there will be minimum sweeping to do at the end of the day.
@@illestofdemall13 Thanks for watching and commenting. That is a great idea but under the job locations I do, that rack-a-tears trash can would walk away😥. I use the exhaust fan boxes for clean up.
You said three 14-2 NM cables in a hole, it is actually 4 in a hole. 310.15(C)1 or see Master the NEC electrical blunders, residential electrical inspector.
Thanks for watching Kirk. I'll be looking through the 2017 NEC to find it.
“National Electrical Code”, not National electric code!😅
Have to be 100 feet from a pop machine
The one tool a electrician does not own or know how to use is a broom
by code nec
Yes, national electrical code. I'm in Maryland and the video is on the 2017 codes. Thanks for watching and commenting.
I couldn't understand one word that inspector said
It's obvious it's made for TH-cam no inspectors is that thorough on inspections he'd only get to do about two or three a day
Thanks for watching Barry. I'm not able to use mic's with a smart phone during recording. Hopefully I'll be getting a go-pro or SLR camera by the end of the year. George Landing is licensed for electrical inspections and teaching. This is a real electrical inspection. Nothing fake here.
This inspector was that thorough- I used him as well. No one else in this area did it like he did. Fyi Barry, he passed away suddenly a few days ago.
Thanks for the reply. George Landing was one of a kind. No one could ever fill his shoes in the man he was. Yes, 😥he recently passed away. I was one of the pallbearers at his funeral. The dear friend was lost that day 😥 and another angel was granted his wings.
@@workingmanrondoyle3287 Hello, Ron. I came to check out your channel after you told me about it after the service. Glad you have this video, I’ll sure I’ll watch it often…
Thanks for watching Mark. I figured that was you. I appreciate you watching buddy 👍. I sure wish George was still around 😥
Man, your talking, and nervousness makes me think you are trying to distract this inspector
Thanks for watching and commenting.
No, not that at all. I've been speeding up the video to cut down on the length. And I'm realizing people don't like watching it that way. I was also trying to keep up with the inspector that kept walking around. This video lacks audio bad. I need better Camara and lapel microphones. Thanks again for communicating. This is definitely a learning process for me as well.
Thanks for watching and commenting.
No, not that at all. I've been speeding up the video to cut down on the length. And I'm realizing people don't like watching it that way. I was also trying to keep up with the inspector that kept walking around. This video lacks audio bad. I need better Camara and lapel microphones. Thanks again for communicating. This is definitely a learning process for me as well.
What conflict of interest exists?
Thanks for watching and commenting Terry. The conflict of interest was a big thing between electricians and Mason's on jobs where a euphoground is to be installed. I would supply the acorn clamps and 30' of no.4 bare copper and over half the time it was installed on the wrong side of the house or in the wrong spot. Other issues, copper left for me was to short or I couldn't find it at all. I had to bring a metal detector to the job sites. Big waste of time for me 😒
old gay
Fan rated boxes are required in bedrooms in tn
Master?
Thanks for watching and commenting. Yes, I'm a master electrician. We are still on the 2017 code on Maryland. I believe will skip over the 2020 going stright to the 2023.
@workingmanrondoyle3287 we are on 17 also...I thought we were the backwoods ones. Ha
Oh here in Tennessee meant to say...neat work...+