I've been enjoying some of your vids. But this vid has too many things that are... incorrect. Having a sharp edge braced against your arm isn't dangerous to the wielder unless they have bare arms and are drawing the blade against their own arm. An opponent hitting the edge of your weapon in a block or parry is 100% normal and often even desirable (as it provides grip to control their weapon), trying to preserve the edge when in combat is senseless and blocking a sword or axe swing with a dagger is even more senseless as it will most likely just blow through your block. Daggers are only really good at defending from thrusting attacks, blocking against swinging attacks are ill-advised at best. No one would whittle with that type of dagger, its a pure weapon, not a tool. You present too many personal theories as though they are tested and proven facts in martial practice.
All fair points! Allow me a moment to explain some of my thought processes, as I think my points and examples may be easily misinterpreted. In terms of bracing against the forearm, I'm basing my hypothesis on 16th century Dirk trainings, a number of videos and pictures I've seen have shown that they have a blunt spine. The same with grabbing somone's blade, you are right that it would not cut you simply by being braced against the skin, but the second force is applied (via blocking an incoming strike), it will definitely cut you. As for blocking with an edge, yes it is normal and expected, it so happens that my dagger has a textured spine to create bite as well, I'll need to do more research to see if that was ever historically done. I agree, going into battle with a dagger hoping to block anything heavier is a recipe for disaster, but the idea with self defense is that it's unexpected, and bracing against your arm or dodging would be better than nothing. I'm also assuming in this scenario that you are likely fighting someone armed similarly to you, since daggers were the common carry. I did not mean to imply that you would whittle with a dagger of this shape, it was merely an example of how a bushcraft technique/knife grip might theoretically be applied to self defense, backed up by the clinch pick example that at least some people today already use their knives this way. You brought up some excellent points, thank you, this topic would definitely warrant a revisit at some point to clarify or correct some of my assertions at least. -Cheers!
@@LivingAnachronism The pressure from an incoming strike wouldn't cut you, you can push a sharp edge quite hard against your skin before it breaks. But again, that's bare skin, if you have bare arms and you're using that technique... well its not a good idea without some fabric in the way. Even a basic linen or wool sleeve will prevent that from being an issue. Even trying that without something there as a basic form of cut protection is... to put it mildly, not a good idea. If all I had was a dagger in a medieval fight. I would rather evade than block. If I were wearing a cloak or hood, I would also use that in my off hand for defence as its honestly a better defensive tool than a dagger. Depending on time period and station though, sword and buckler was common for people to carry and is muuuuuch better for self-defence. Aaah you should have clarified more about the separation of bushcraft from combat. I would personally say that if you do a follow up, try to make it clearer what is personal theory and start of by explaining that you aren't a HEMA or knife fighting practitioner as that really should be made clear from the start. I would also personally retitle the video as well, because the title "How to use a Dagger" gives off an air of authority and expertise. Maybe "How I would use a Dagger" or "My Dagger theories" as those titles won't bring down the ire of less... "diplomatic" HEMA practitioners who might find this vid. Glad you've taken my feedback without getting salty and responded in such a mature way. So few do it seems. I do quite enjoy your other videos as though I've been into HEMA for a few years, reenactment is something I'm new to (so new that I haven't done it, but that's not surprising given that nothing is on atm).
@@RainMakeR_Workshop HEMA is just dudes in armor smashing eachother with wild abandon lol and I think it's pretty clear this video is all his opinion he's never claimed to be a fighting expert
@@RainMakeR_Workshop I would like to know why a dagger can't be used to whittle? There's the perfect tool for everything, but if the only blade you have on you is a dagger, why can't you whittle with it? Also, why can't you block a swinging attack with a dagger? Especially if it's fitted with a crossguard? You may be in close quarters combat where running away is not an option. I never got the impression that this video was about how a dagger is the best at doing all the things, but rather a video about how a dagger can be utilized if a situation calls for it. As an aside, Living Anachronism may have taken your criticism "without getting salty" but your demeanor in your OP and response is quite rude. Considering it's apparently a common occurrence, it's possible that your demeanor is simply rude when you're communicating your criticisms. As the saying goes; if you think everyone around you is an asshole, maybe you're the asshole.
@@drwrencho4392 I don't think you know what HEMA is. Because that was one of the most moronic things I've ever read... And this is the internet. So its a pretty low bar. In HEMA we usually don't even wear "armour". We wear protective fencing equipment specifically designed for HEMA. We study, and train, and drill, just like any other martial art and we do NOT "smash" each other with "wild abandon". we strive to strike our opponent without being struck. Hell, in Rapier fencing (Which is HEMA btw) you don't do anything that even comes close to "smashing" your opponent. Maybe you're confusing HEMA with SCA or M-1 Medieval. Because smashing an armoured opponent with no consideration for defence is something you'd see them do. It's not what we do in HEMA.
"...A child!" The most dangerous of predators. Not for their inherent tenacity and seemingly endless stamina, but rather for their nearly supernatural durability. As we all know, children are essential NPCs and cannot be killed.
Children are human lemmings...but where lemmings doing silly things is more of a myth fed to us by Disney, children can literally be counted on to do the dumbest things possible. play tag with their friends in close proximity to weapon use? Yep. Put their hand on something hot to see if it's actually hot? Turn your back for a moment and wait for the screams. Lake nearby? "Help! I can't swim!" Always trust children to exceed your Band-Aid supply by one.
Never thought I'd be watching a historic hobby channel casually throw out a reference to the Warrior Poet Society. Good to see you interested in Medieval as well as modern fighting strategy.
@@LivingAnachronism I got a feeling you were a gear guy. You gave it away in your medieval costume video when you talked about the right mindset and modular systems. Glad to see a fellow warpoet here!
Literally found this channel and love it but was amazed when I heard The John Lovell at WPS I’m not the only guy would loves Modern and Historical systems 🍻🍻🍻
you have some interesting theory's here, I've often wondered why a seax sheath has the blade pointing upwards, and have tried similar techniques in sparing to try to see if there is any logic to it. I guess that if the advantage of the blade being drawn facing towards you is in close quarters combat when an enemy may have already grappled you, then this would make perfect sense as a secondary weapon, a last resort item drawn when you're main weapon (sword, axe, mace etc..) has already been pulled from you're hand also remember: "the best knife is the one you have with you" and for that reason I have whittled wood with a combat dagger (and a sword once), that technique you show makes perfect sense ;)
Hail Iodo! I think the Seax answer lies mostly in the way the scabbards have to be designed by necessity, I mentioned that in the video, and someone else mentioned it here as well. But it certainly creates an interesting question when it comes to combat doesn't it? That's why we like experimenting. Naturally as LOTR reenactors, our rules are a bit different than 100% historical accuracy, as we often purposfully put ourselves in situations that no right minded medieval person would ever wish to be in, so while historically people would not hvae used their daggers for survival work, we might, because in the context of a fantasy/medieval adventurer it makes sense.
@@LivingAnachronism this is what I love most about fantasy: It frees you from historical reenactments demand for evidence that something was done/used and allows for creativity and trying new things :)
I read somewhere that someone theorized that the reason a seax is sheathed with the blade facing up is so that the blade didn't cut through the sheath over time. I don't believe that there is any literary source to support that, but quite plausible I suppose. Although the conservation of materials likely played into the design as well. I know that some Iron Age fighters prefer to carry their seax behind them, some in front and some off-center towards their off-hand, almost like a sword. When the seax is carried behind you, it is almost more comfortable for most to grip and unsheathe the seax underhanded, so that the blade ends up facing towards the enemy. I have also practices drawing from the front in a similar fashion so I don't have to flip my grip at all. After enough practice, it seems just at natural as a regular draw. Great video!
@@Vyk1345 maybe that's a possibility, although as a leather-worker I can say that it's quite easily possible to make a secure sheath whatever way up you want, in a way that the blade shouldn't cut through the leather, although as Living Anachronism points out in the video, it uses more leather to make it with the blade down
I remember seeing this before. In Filipino martial arts, I think. Your points seem legit. I always say, fight the way that is nost comfortable to you. Keep doing what you're doing. You just got yourself a new subscriber.
The most common example of a fighting dagger with a single edge and a guard that indicates which direction it is heldwould be a bauernwehr, and they have the nagel positioned so that it protects the hand properly when the blade is forward assuming it is wielded in the right hand, as they typically would be, so holding the blade back likely was not very common, otherwise the nagel on them would be on the other side. There are some examples of "sword breaker" style daggers where the ring is positioned so that the blade is facing backwards when held left handed (which would be normal for them because they were typically paired with a rapier or sidesword), but the dagger is not the primary offense when wielding a rapier and dagger and the spine is significantly different on those than any other daggers and it can probably be considered an outlier. It is also worth considering that if those daggers were held right handed, as most would if they were fighting using only a dagger, the blade is forward when the ring is positioned correctly.
I feel like I should bring up the fact that facing the blade towards you and cutting towards yourself with it puts you at major risk to slash your own face and torso if it slips off the opponents body or the opponent hits you hard enough
I see daggers more for grappling than a substitute of a sword. Because of it's length and size, it's perfect for when you body slammed an opponent to the ground and then stabbing the gaps.
@@LivingAnachronism that depends heavily though. In a straight up brawl where both of you have knives, it’s usually better to have your point or blade forward as you can punish or null grapple attempts with stabs or slashes. At the same time, both grips were used throughout history for different purposes and in a myriad of situations.
It was a lot of times a substitute for a sword though in places like medieval Germany, you weren't allowed to carry swords, but everyone had knifes or daggers. If a knife is all you have to attack or defend yourself with then yeah, you had to use it as a substitute sword. If a knife was long enough (and a lot of times they were) you could apply sword fencing techniques to it and it was pretty much the most effective way to fight with it when you are not in grappling distance.
you carry edge up because your edge will remain sharp when not resting / bumping on the scabbard in travel if you carry edge down, all the weight and motions of the sword dagger or knife will be translated on the edge, and not the spine dirt and debris from travel also accumulates in the lower part of the scabbard, further increasing issues if the edge is near or even resting on it for draws, you just change draws as needed, it is just in the wrist rotation,
This is considered thoroughly in Bowie knife techniques. Some traditional Bowie knives have brass spines to catch blades. It is called the mountain grip.
The bugs actually confuse the auto focus and make the lens look very flat, so while editing I also thought "people will think this is a green screen haha!
Wow, this is so cool, I've never come across anyone addressing this topic, love the video! All my daggers are double bladed but I hold my sax with the sharp edge up since my most common stroke is the upwards thrust from under the shield. When striking from above the shield I do not change the grip. I wear my sax hanging vertically on my belt, but if you have it hanging horizontally you can twist your wrist to draw it either way.
I like using the terms “Talon Grip” (point down/icepick) and “Snake Grip” (point up), taken from Apache knife fighting terminology when I’m teaching basic knife techniques. It sounds cool and conveys the direction of intent of your strikes. If I may expand on your lesson: Where you place (on your person) the dagger and how it is hung can denote how it is drawn comfortably and swiftly. Example: I hang mine at my belly in the center of my body. I can draw it with either hand & with either grip. For me this works, as my dagger is a backup and I need as many options as possible in the middle of a fight. Other placements favor only one hand and/or a particular grip, which isn’t bad, it’s personal preference.
I just love this channel. Common sense experimental archeology with just the perfect amount of fantasy flavour. This has a similar vibe to Modern History TV channel, only he replaced the fantasy part with horses.
@@LivingAnachronism Shad sent me, and now I'm making my way through your older videos. You convinced me to try and make my own Ruana cloak. Good stuff brother! Keep it up!
As someone who uses a knife a lot at my work (for utility) I love this video because this is one of my favourite grips Especially for cutting ropes or ties on boxes
Reverse grip is only effective if the target it lower than the pivot, otherwise its a waste of energy and less effective because of blade angle. Its primarily good for backstabbing, as I have been the recipient of many of those, mainly figuratively but the physics still apply ;-)
Supposedly, the "backhand" grip was the proper way of using the Bowie knife. From the manuals I've seen though, it seems icepick grip is actually preferred in medieval/renaissance times, because you can also hook from that position. It's interesting, icepick is generally preferred by the most inexperienced, then with knowledge/practice transition to the "proper" blade forward grip, then when they REALLY know what they're doing, it's back to the icepick.
I was a CQB instructor for the US Marines. You are on the right track. The movement of the blade dictates the direction of the edge. Grip also is a factor
If you read any of the early writings describing combat with Bowie knives in early America they talk about the cutting edge up. The Arkansas toothpick was a dagger like knife and was used this way as well as using what was called a complete grip which is cutting edges sideway with the thumb on the side of the blade. Good posting you are on the right track!
very, very, VERY cool. Well, it makes sense, and what's more, the halberd is also like that, a straight tip, and the blade focused to cut more in the retraction movement. that about scripting the movement from a low blow to the top was very clever, I didn't know that. and katanas are normally used for cutting, but there are techniques (I think including in the book of 5 rings, when it says about a dull sword) to use them in reverse to pierce. and there is another type of sheath that also uses little material. place the blade on top of a piece of leather, join the parts together and sew it like you would patch a teddy bear (I don't even know the name of this seam in my language, let alone in English). I really liked the video and I will add it to a playlist. It really is an out of the box idea. You didn't say it, and I thought you would soon, but also, weapons of war were MUCH sharper than people think, and sharpening something takes time and wastes metal, so using the straight part to block saves a lot of sharpening time and life useful, this should be considered. Someday I'll have a good dagger made that can be used as a bush knife too, I've been wanting one with a 1 + 1/3 sharpening for some time.
Hi there again Kramer, just putting in my two pen'orth, (again!) I was given to understand it that a dagger is ALWAYS double-edged. If the implement has a spine, 'true -edge' and sharpened reverse tip, then it's a knife. It's what I was told years ago when I started in re-enactment here in the UK. Nice vid as always, keep up the good work!!
Interesting point! I've not seen that exact distinction, for example "Rondel Daggers" I believe can be single or double edged. Perhaps I use the german distinction of hilt construction. Thanks for sharing!
In most instances, the reason ice pick is used, isn't in a standing one vs one duel, its when grappling on the ground, which is why it was favoured a lot. First you grapple them, then you draw the dagger, which will almost always result in an ice pick grip, and then you stab him. If you are standing, and hoping to ward off his attacks, most manuals suggest ice pick as well, but I get the impression they are more about theory and wishful thinking, as its unlikely you can beat a guy with a sword, with a dagger, unless you are in an enclosed space
I dunno if you've tried it, but jabbing forward at neck/head level with an ice pick grip works extremely well. The motion is a bit of internal rotation at the shoulder. It feels much faster than a similar attack with a normal grip.
clinch pick and grappling got me here. nice video, very interesting. As a grappling trainer i think i just found my favorite hema weapon greets from europe
I've seen someone punching into a blade and skinning himself. It's not pretty... Personally, I wouldn't want to have my main edge facing to me, but it depends on various parameters and they also define, if it's tip-up, or down. The most important factor is what the opponent is wearing! Even today, people have survived machete attacks due to thick or resilient clothing. When it comes to mail, cutting becomes pointless! You can thrust harder with the tip down and doing a chopping motion downwards. It is also a more defensive way of holding the blade. However, when both combatants are essentially unarmored and equipped with daggers, the tip-up hold is preferable as it offers more range and allows for more angles of attack. Having a double edge, or the edge facing you is useful in the following cases: 1) stabbing downwards or sideways. If the tip misses, it's still likely to cut. 2) hooking techniques. You can for instance put the blade behind the knee for a throw. If it cuts, it's a major injury, which is near fight ending. If it doesn't, it's still a throw... 3) the good old neck-slice.
One thing when you stab someone would you rather stab thru bone mussle and a dense upper body or would you rather deal with a softer midsection? That's just my humble opinion to have the cutting edge in on a dagger.
In high/late medieval art - when armoured warfare/combat is shown the dagger is pretty much always shown thrusting - Mostly point down but occasionally point up thrusting at the arm pits or throat etc.
the dagger itself is a natural weapon for a boxer as well as a wrestler, and the "backside gri / clinch pick" concept makes it even more powerful for fighting super close / clinch or even ground range....
I’ve been a viewer of your channel for a while now and I love your content. I found this video to be thought provoking and interesting. However, I’d like to politely disagree for a few reasons. I know I’m 2 years late, but I’d still like to add my 2 cents. I think the biggest trap of taking on the topic of “how to fight with a knife” is that people feel the need to come to a conclusive answer. To borrow from the esteemed Matt Easton, in my mind and in my experience, it all depends on the context in which you intend to use your knife/dagger. For instance, the clinch pick and the SOCP dagger (and fighting system) are built for the specific context of close-in fighting at grappling range due to the realities of modern civilian violence or military CQB. In both these cases you typically have no choice but to “start” the fight at such a close range so the blade upwards grip of the clinch pick and the ice pick grip of the SOCP dagger are more suited to a grappling scenario. However, in a scenario where you expect to use a larger knife against another knife wielding opponent, the benefits of a conventional/standard knife grip can’t be overstated. The range and length of cutting edge gained by a standard grip are your best friend when it comes to surviving that kind of encounter. A standard grip is also still incredibly effective in a clinch/grappling scenario. The most common method for knife attacks (at least in the US) is for the attacker to grapple/post off the victim with one hand and prison shank with the knife held in a standard grip in the other hand. To address the Bowie knife being wielded with a blade-up grip, I believe the reason is due to the proliferation of firearms. I believe that so much of the art and discussion around the implementation of the Bowie knife deals with fighting at grappling range specifically to negate the opponent’s use of a firearm. Trying to stay at range and duel with an opponent who also has a gun is an easy invitation for him to pull an Indiana Jones and blast you before you can use your years of knife training to filet him. I also believe this is why in SOCP, the dagger is meant to be used in a grappling context; it limits your opponent’s ability to shoot you with a firearm and also makes any of his friends less likely to shoot you as well (as they might not want to risk accidentally hitting their friend). As I said in the beginning of the post, the thing I see most often ignored in discussions about knife fighting is the specific context in which you’re using the weapon. In my opinion there is no “right” way to wield a knife so long as it makes sense for your specific context.
Man, this video made me think of so many combat possibilities! This video was amazing and is now one of my favorites if not the favorite of this channel, pity it doesn't even have 1000 views. It would be a good idea to cite this in the community tab for the new subscribers see it and it would be nice to make new videos about weapons and re-enactment/combat theories, you're good at that. Greetings for the content!
Greetings! Thanks! This video was a little controversial, so I'm glad you enjoyed. More weapons videos are planned, provided I can get my hands on ones I don't already have, and I want to start actually being able to test/spar on the channel as well. All long works in progress
Thrusting is what we see designs based around anyway. If clothing was thick enough, as I've seen some suggest, that thrusting was the preferred design basis for a self defense weapon, then the only slash that would be most effective most of the time is a tipcut, which 3 inches of blade would be perfectly capable of.
I herd a similar explanation by a knife maker talking about fighting with a Bowie knife. I believe he used Indian and Mexican fighting styles but I think whatever works for you is the best method if you are comfortable with the way the weapon feel in your hand you can focus on the fight. I do not recommend trying to defend against a sword or axe with a dagger your feet provide a much better defense.
It's a rotten idea to parry with a sharpened blade as it will chip, bend and dull quickly. Also, yes, a thrust with a long point is far more deadly than a slash. I was not aware that a dagger was only partially sharpened in this way, but your whole video makes a lot of sense and was a great eye-opener!
I know what you're saying, but the 'um, actually' in me has to mention: The 'true edge' of a blade is *defined* as being the one facing 'forward'. If you hold your dagger so that the spine is showing forward, then the couple inches above the spine that are sharpened are the true edge, not the full-length edge that is now facing you.
I heard that with the Dirk, you block indeed with the blade reversed against your forearm, but they blocked with the blade flat against not with the blunt edge.
IMO in a medieval setting, if it comes down to an armed fight with a knife - you should mainly use thrusts and go for a kill. Maybe one could deter a fight with a bigger weapon, but with a knife it`s too risky.
Although I prefer an edge-forward fighting style, I would assume that IF the Vikings held knives with the spine forward to their enemies it'd be for a similar reason as bowie knives..."thrusts" to the abdomen are more like a 'punch" in the gut than a forward stab. Not only is the stab itself lethal, your opponent's own weight works against them, like falling on a guillotine. On that note, an advantage of having an unsharpened spine on the back edge of a knife or dagger is that you can baton the back of the blade...while it's inside someone, cutting even further into their body.
Dude, you're a hero. The info on the point first and then the rest, is physically super obvious and super smart. I got to remember that in creating my outfit. Just for the sake of asking: are blunted (1-edged) swords * like katana * stored at any particular way with e.g. the blunted side down to make backhand offense adventagious from the hip? Although, backhand works only when out of the scabbard, and you need to pull your sword so the pummle comes first, so maybe I'm not making sense.
I think it depends on the time period and culture. In the case of the saxe knife, I think it is blade up because that is the easiest way to make a sheath with the least materials. Some other cultures, like the Japanese, may do it because they like the draw technique. Later European single edged swords were worn edge down, I believe.
You said 'false edge' vs 'true edge', where I suspected to hear simply 'blunt' vs 'sharp' edge. I don't know, where you took it from, because as far as I know, the consensus is to always call the edge facing toward enemy, the 'true edge', and facing your forearm, the 'false edge'. So, if the edge facing the enemy is blunt, it's called 'true edge', when You rotate the blade, blunt edge becomes 'false edge'. I find it useful to use these terms in such a way and You may consider to do so as well. Another thing is something, You only mentioned, that is, how those daggers were worn. This also affects, if more natural is to grip it blade up, or down... Or it was the other way around, and the preferred gripping method affected, how they were worn. Anyway, consider two examples: bollocks dagger, hanging blade down, at the front of Your belt, and a parry dagger, worn horizontally, behind your back.
True edge vs false edge is a good point. What faces your opponent is the true edge, I reversed the names on the fly because one of them isn't sharp, but you are correct, "sharp vs blunt" might have been more appropriate.
As always great video. I'd have to politely disagree, or at least outline some disadvantages with the spine facing them in a forwards grip. In my opinion, icepick grip is great for stabbing, with a lot of power, often up close, does not matter which side has the blade or back edge the point is the part that is doing the damage, in forward grip you can more effectively slash or cut((such as cutting the muscles in their forearms, or across their joints, etc)which maybe handy for disabling or disarming your opponent), so I'd personally want the whole sharp edge to offend the opponent, draw that full length across the inside of an elbow or something and you're going to be cutting pretty deep. Situation is pretty dire if you're planning on blocking a larger and heavier weapon with it I would be less concerned with the edge of my blade and more concerned about my life. Then again my quillion is double edged and my rondel is single edged so I would not have that option. Also If i was in the hypothetical situation of carrying either of those daggers and someone beset me even without a weapon, something is as only as good as you're prepared to use it. Going Non-lethal when someone is set on grappling you despite you having a lethal weapon like a knife? Well it depends on context but it don't ring right with me. Sure they might need some persuading that you're not afraid to cut them should they try something, but on the other hand, if the persuasion don't work, you're yourself at risk, especially if they manage to disarm you, take the weapon or otherwise disable you.
EE…I don't know about Medieval Daggers. Double-Edged Daggerswere quite popular on the Frontier. Daniel Boone had a Double Edged Dagger; supplied to the Indians by the French and subsequently inherited by Boone, Boone carried that dagger for Decades. Why was the Double-Edge popular? For much the same reason that Double Axes are popular. ONE edge was Razor-Sharp for fine cutting while the other Edge had a thicker edge for coarser work. IF I bought a Double-Quillon Dagger and it only had a sharpened Swedge on one side, I'd feel like I was cheated.
It's just my idea, but I've been thinking in maybe the seax were sheathed with the edge in the opposite side for a "respect principle". There are many traditions in several places that when you put a knife on the table, you should point the edge to you, so nobody would think you can grabe it and with a quick movement of hand, cut the person next to you. So maybe seax were sheathed with the edge facing up so it's not easy for you to attack someone in a blink. Just my idea.
Biggest thing about blank/'squared off" side of blade is 90% manufacturing process, 10% 'implied' technique. All you need of a dagger is the top couple inches to be sharp & pointy to stab & puncture, & a cutting edge to slice. For manufacturing, it's about saving time & moving on to the next piece/blade, especially way back then. Nowadays they're primarily stamped out shapes by machines, olden times all by hand & archaic machines - for all qualities of blades. So leaving one side blank on a poor material blade [for example] just let the smiths get it done faster & let them move on.
From a medieval perspective, nome of what you posit is supported by evidence. While I’m no expert in Dei Liberi, I am generally familiar with its dagger techniques, and I know a good bit about /Lichtenaeur (which is literally the only other medieval source; we have no evidence of how one might fight with a seax, for example. I’ve also studied a fair bit of modern knife combatives, though to be fair that’s not especially relevant. One is never shown blocking with a dagger at all. Ever. Every technique in the Lichtenauer system, and to the best of my recollection in Dei Liberi as well, is there a dagger technique wherein one blocks an attack with the blade. One displaces the attack against the arm of the attacker, either with the hands or with the blade. And while the masters are not explicit in how the blade should be oriented, there are several techniques which the long edge should definitely be the sharp edge. The low to high backhand cut is simply never shown, but would be dome differently than you show it in thd forehand grip; you _would_ lead with the point. It’s not hard to accomplish, and I’d much more in keeping with Lichtebauer;d principles. I will note that changing grips by spinning the blade around is likely to get you killed very dead unless your opponent has stepped out for coffee. I have had this *ahem* point driven ho,e painfully in my youth. Don’t do it.
Hi! I'm new to the channel and really enjoying the content! I'm just an aspiring writer and kung fu practioner so I will ask this from sincere intrigue and respect, since I have scarse knowledge of european fighting techniques. The question is: Don't you think that blocking an impact with the ice pick grip and the dagger against your forearm would provide very little protection? I mean, let's say you block a sword attack, wouldn't the sword continue to press and slide/cut against your flesh past the point of contact with the dagger? I sense that, at most, it would be of some aid if you were moving away from the attack and used the dagger to avoid contact with the edge... Idk I'm just picturing that kind of blockage amidst the chaos of combat and it just seems to have a really narrow chance of being effective. Plus, reversing the grip means that for a second you run the risk of losing grip (let's say you lose balance or someone bashes into you). What I mean is... Do you think it would be worth it or useful agains a real threat?
When I am “blocking” with a dagger, in either grip, and what I teach my students, it to use a Tai Chi approach when possible. Use it as a surface to glance the force of the blow away like water, avoiding hard blocks when possible. You can hard block another dagger, but when the mass of the attacking weapon increases, a well timed fluid motion takes less effort and allows for a follow up bind, control or repose (counter strike). This is one “school of thought” and fits with my own fighting technique.
I have not seen anyone cover using a dagger with a curved guard or quillons such that quillons can be used to capture the attacker's sword. This seems a valuable option when presented with a single sword armed attacker. Thoughts?
In episode two, season five of The Last Kingdom (the newest season), Uthred and a couple of others in his party use their seaxes in exactly this manner... SPOILER.... As they enter Yorvik via the old Roman sewer about 6 minutes into the episode. Also in episode three where Uhtred comes to Aethelstan's rescue about 11 minutes from the end. Also in episode four, at the very end of the intro portion when Haestan tells his man to cut down the lady hung from a tree, the man draws his seax forehand, but the blade is upside down (edge up.)
I don't agree with your comment that bracing on your arm is preferable to a blade-up block. Although it puts less strain on your wrist to do so, you actually increase the chance of your arm being hit, because your opponent is not static. They're not just gonna bounce off when you block, they're likely to push through and now their blade is only an inch from your forearm, which can debilitate you completely because it is the hand you are holding the dagger in. I have blocked two-handed blows from a metal katana with a parrying dagger of similar size to yours (in a cross training where I paired it with a Rapier) and there was no strain on my wrist because I caught the strike on the strong of my dagger and pushed into it, allowing the force to distribute down my arm. The dagger did not budge, there was only risk to the hand if I got the angle wrong. Ice-pick/reverse grip is preferred for having more angles to thrust from, or for hooking action. It doesn't do very much else well, and in my experience doing full-contact sparring with a dagger, I've never needed to brace it against my arm. All that does is limit your ability to block, not heighten it.
Hey I was curious about knives. I've read that people in medieval times would carry a knife as part of their EDC. So much so that there was a reminder to remove your knife belt before bed. Anyways, what sort of knife would this have been? This all the time knife. Would it have been the size of a modern pocket knife or would they have been bigger and more like a dagger/hunting/combat knife? I thought I had asked this question elsewhere but I couldn't find it and wanted your opinion!!
I think it depends on the time period, and what culture. Tod's Workshop has some excellent videos on the history of knives. From what I've seen, the everyday knives would have been dagger sized, more than pocket sized (they didn't have pockets anyway). And I believe for the lower classes, many would be carrying single edged knives.
flaying someones arm in medieval times would more likely kill them than not, I wouldnt say thats a good move if you also want to claim you werent trying to kill them.
Interesting theoretical analysis, some things that I see being problematic in practical scenario. Bears further looking into and experimentation. Also for further reading, I'd strongly suggest "Highland Knife Fighting" by Thompson.
Your argument on the scabbard lace up and why, I think can be countered by the katana. Not well known, the katana was notorious for eventually cutting threw thier own scabbard. Why? When drawing the weapon, the edge naturally has an uneven pressure comming out of the scabbard. How the blade is drawn puts an uneven pressure on the sharp edge to the scabbard. Normally, the side with the most pressure on a horizontal scabbard is on downside. If you want to extend the life of the scabbard, you design accordingly. Thats why your viking sheath is the way it is. Sadly, not due to edge alignment after the drawing of said blade.
Actually my argument takes this into account if I remember correctly. Viking scabbards were designed blade up because it's the easiest way to get a welt in to protect the stiching and put in belt loops at the same time, using the least amount of materials, so you are correct. I might have talked about that in a different video or this one, can't remember. But my theory here isn't that scabbards were designed this way because edge alignment, but that the way that scabbards/sheathes were designed might have had an influence on the way that the dagger or knife was wielded.
@@LivingAnachronism I understand, but I think it's (scabbard design) is deceiving you on the end direction of the blade once drawn. Then again, you could be right. Thank you for responding so kindly to my comment. In this day and age, it's rare to have such a gentlemans level of debate. I look forward to your future videos.
The true edge should be aligned with your bodies range of motion whether in natural or reverse grip your utilization of it whether eating or defense and your own understanding/skill is the only gauge🃏 A reverse grip might be better for parrying long reach weapons whereas the natural grip will definitely be more dexterous and adaptable. The way you twirp it around is flashy but serves a purpose of transitioning from one to the other. . .think you can do that under duress? 🃏🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣✌️
It really depends on what you are looking for. Cult of Athena has a great selection. I personally love Medieval Collectibles. Armstreet is a good source, but pricy. Dark Sword will have some options. My Seax is from Baltimore Knife and Sword. If you want something that will be "combat ready" make sure you do thorough research on the tang construction and the type of steel.
The only time you'd want to use a reverse grip is if you're in very close quarters such as with your back up against a wall *OR* fighting an unarmed opponent... but that would make *YOU* the bad guy in the (legal) real world. If fighting an armed opponent you need to create distance and use the forehand grip for longer reach and speed, keeping your knife hand forward. You want to slash at the incoming hand or inside wrist (tendons) to disarm your opponent. If you're attempting to block you are too close. Reverse rip 'cuts' your reach considerably which means you have to bring your body closer to the opponent. Deadly mistake. Once your opponent is disarmed you can use the more powerful (but slower) reverse grip to finish him off *OR* to apply leverage and locks if you don't want to finish him off.
There is one thing on which I must correct you, and the rest I know fairly little about, being that I do not study daggers or manuscripts about daggers aside from the rondel, which you have erroneously reported as having an edge and a false edge. I dispute this. The rondel dagger has three flat faces and no cutting edges. It is quite literally an icepick designed to stab your opponent's face through their visor.
that is one type of rondel blade yes. but not all blades are like that. and a weapon is more often defined by its grip/hilt design and length, rather than the blade itself.
@@drago2210 regardless that is how a rondel dagger is defined. No sharp edges, it's an ice pick. There are other types of daggers, yes, but those daggers are not rondel daggers.
Have you any experience of actual fighting practice with knives? If you don't, i' d suggest trying it out and trying that grip in practice. I think it would not make that much of a difference, since you'll probably be mostly parring arms instead of blades and using your knife to stab at very close range, where you will never be inconvenienced by the lenght of the weapon or the facing of the blade. So, cool idea, try it and then tell us how it works!
I do, my theory is that it actually wouldn't affect that much, but that having the ability to use the cutting edge to pull away with, as more of an escape maneuver, might be more advantages that a purely offensive stance, if you only had a single edged knife, and didn't want to fight to the death, just incapacitate your opponent and end the dangerous scenario as quickly as possible.
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I've been enjoying some of your vids. But this vid has too many things that are... incorrect.
Having a sharp edge braced against your arm isn't dangerous to the wielder unless they have bare arms and are drawing the blade against their own arm.
An opponent hitting the edge of your weapon in a block or parry is 100% normal and often even desirable (as it provides grip to control their weapon), trying to preserve the edge when in combat is senseless and blocking a sword or axe swing with a dagger is even more senseless as it will most likely just blow through your block.
Daggers are only really good at defending from thrusting attacks, blocking against swinging attacks are ill-advised at best.
No one would whittle with that type of dagger, its a pure weapon, not a tool. You present too many personal theories as though they are tested and proven facts in martial practice.
All fair points! Allow me a moment to explain some of my thought processes, as I think my points and examples may be easily misinterpreted. In terms of bracing against the forearm, I'm basing my hypothesis on 16th century Dirk trainings, a number of videos and pictures I've seen have shown that they have a blunt spine. The same with grabbing somone's blade, you are right that it would not cut you simply by being braced against the skin, but the second force is applied (via blocking an incoming strike), it will definitely cut you. As for blocking with an edge, yes it is normal and expected, it so happens that my dagger has a textured spine to create bite as well, I'll need to do more research to see if that was ever historically done. I agree, going into battle with a dagger hoping to block anything heavier is a recipe for disaster, but the idea with self defense is that it's unexpected, and bracing against your arm or dodging would be better than nothing. I'm also assuming in this scenario that you are likely fighting someone armed similarly to you, since daggers were the common carry. I did not mean to imply that you would whittle with a dagger of this shape, it was merely an example of how a bushcraft technique/knife grip might theoretically be applied to self defense, backed up by the clinch pick example that at least some people today already use their knives this way. You brought up some excellent points, thank you, this topic would definitely warrant a revisit at some point to clarify or correct some of my assertions at least. -Cheers!
@@LivingAnachronism The pressure from an incoming strike wouldn't cut you, you can push a sharp edge quite hard against your skin before it breaks.
But again, that's bare skin, if you have bare arms and you're using that technique... well its not a good idea without some fabric in the way. Even a basic linen or wool sleeve will prevent that from being an issue.
Even trying that without something there as a basic form of cut protection is... to put it mildly, not a good idea.
If all I had was a dagger in a medieval fight. I would rather evade than block. If I were wearing a cloak or hood, I would also use that in my off hand for defence as its honestly a better defensive tool than a dagger.
Depending on time period and station though, sword and buckler was common for people to carry and is muuuuuch better for self-defence.
Aaah you should have clarified more about the separation of bushcraft from combat.
I would personally say that if you do a follow up, try to make it clearer what is personal theory and start of by explaining that you aren't a HEMA or knife fighting practitioner as that really should be made clear from the start.
I would also personally retitle the video as well, because the title "How to use a Dagger" gives off an air of authority and expertise.
Maybe "How I would use a Dagger" or "My Dagger theories" as those titles won't bring down the ire of less... "diplomatic" HEMA practitioners who might find this vid.
Glad you've taken my feedback without getting salty and responded in such a mature way. So few do it seems.
I do quite enjoy your other videos as though I've been into HEMA for a few years, reenactment is something I'm new to (so new that I haven't done it, but that's not surprising given that nothing is on atm).
@@RainMakeR_Workshop HEMA is just dudes in armor smashing eachother with wild abandon lol and I think it's pretty clear this video is all his opinion he's never claimed to be a fighting expert
@@RainMakeR_Workshop I would like to know why a dagger can't be used to whittle? There's the perfect tool for everything, but if the only blade you have on you is a dagger, why can't you whittle with it? Also, why can't you block a swinging attack with a dagger? Especially if it's fitted with a crossguard? You may be in close quarters combat where running away is not an option. I never got the impression that this video was about how a dagger is the best at doing all the things, but rather a video about how a dagger can be utilized if a situation calls for it.
As an aside, Living Anachronism may have taken your criticism "without getting salty" but your demeanor in your OP and response is quite rude. Considering it's apparently a common occurrence, it's possible that your demeanor is simply rude when you're communicating your criticisms. As the saying goes; if you think everyone around you is an asshole, maybe you're the asshole.
@@drwrencho4392 I don't think you know what HEMA is. Because that was one of the most moronic things I've ever read... And this is the internet. So its a pretty low bar.
In HEMA we usually don't even wear "armour". We wear protective fencing equipment specifically designed for HEMA. We study, and train, and drill, just like any other martial art and we do NOT "smash" each other with "wild abandon". we strive to strike our opponent without being struck. Hell, in Rapier fencing (Which is HEMA btw) you don't do anything that even comes close to "smashing" your opponent.
Maybe you're confusing HEMA with SCA or M-1 Medieval. Because smashing an armoured opponent with no consideration for defence is something you'd see them do. It's not what we do in HEMA.
"...A child!"
The most dangerous of predators. Not for their inherent tenacity and seemingly endless stamina, but rather for their nearly supernatural durability. As we all know, children are essential NPCs and cannot be killed.
Brandon Roger's Neighborhood patrol approves
Darth Vader disagrees with that last part
@@tucan9111 Nah, that was a scripted event, like that wizard falling from the sky.
Children are human lemmings...but where lemmings doing silly things is more of a myth fed to us by Disney, children can literally be counted on to do the dumbest things possible. play tag with their friends in close proximity to weapon use? Yep. Put their hand on something hot to see if it's actually hot? Turn your back for a moment and wait for the screams. Lake nearby? "Help! I can't swim!" Always trust children to exceed your Band-Aid supply by one.
Never thought I'd be watching a historic hobby channel casually throw out a reference to the Warrior Poet Society. Good to see you interested in Medieval as well as modern fighting strategy.
Glad to see there are those interested in both watching my content as well!
@@LivingAnachronism I got a feeling you were a gear guy. You gave it away in your medieval costume video when you talked about the right mindset and modular systems. Glad to see a fellow warpoet here!
@@MrJakedog104 good to see you, brother
same hahah
Literally found this channel and love it but was amazed when I heard The John Lovell at WPS I’m not the only guy would loves Modern and Historical systems 🍻🍻🍻
7:56 "and if you happen to be fighting someone that is not particularly - a child..." 😆
Shad sent me. I've now binge watched your videos. 😳
Great content.
Thank you, most kindly
Got to love shad
I loved that slash transition from the hook to the intro.
Yeah, That was great and smooth
you have some interesting theory's here, I've often wondered why a seax sheath has the blade pointing upwards, and have tried similar techniques in sparing to try to see if there is any logic to it. I guess that if the advantage of the blade being drawn facing towards you is in close quarters combat when an enemy may have already grappled you, then this would make perfect sense as a secondary weapon, a last resort item drawn when you're main weapon (sword, axe, mace etc..) has already been pulled from you're hand
also remember: "the best knife is the one you have with you" and for that reason I have whittled wood with a combat dagger (and a sword once), that technique you show makes perfect sense ;)
Hail Iodo! I think the Seax answer lies mostly in the way the scabbards have to be designed by necessity, I mentioned that in the video, and someone else mentioned it here as well. But it certainly creates an interesting question when it comes to combat doesn't it? That's why we like experimenting. Naturally as LOTR reenactors, our rules are a bit different than 100% historical accuracy, as we often purposfully put ourselves in situations that no right minded medieval person would ever wish to be in, so while historically people would not hvae used their daggers for survival work, we might, because in the context of a fantasy/medieval adventurer it makes sense.
@@LivingAnachronism this is what I love most about fantasy: It frees you from historical reenactments demand for evidence that something was done/used and allows for creativity and trying new things :)
I read somewhere that someone theorized that the reason a seax is sheathed with the blade facing up is so that the blade didn't cut through the sheath over time. I don't believe that there is any literary source to support that, but quite plausible I suppose. Although the conservation of materials likely played into the design as well. I know that some Iron Age fighters prefer to carry their seax behind them, some in front and some off-center towards their off-hand, almost like a sword. When the seax is carried behind you, it is almost more comfortable for most to grip and unsheathe the seax underhanded, so that the blade ends up facing towards the enemy. I have also practices drawing from the front in a similar fashion so I don't have to flip my grip at all. After enough practice, it seems just at natural as a regular draw. Great video!
PS: Will you share your kit for portraying Robin Hood? I played Will Scarlet at our local Renaissance Festival for many years.
@@Vyk1345 maybe that's a possibility, although as a leather-worker I can say that it's quite easily possible to make a secure sheath whatever way up you want, in a way that the blade shouldn't cut through the leather, although as Living Anachronism points out in the video, it uses more leather to make it with the blade down
I remember seeing this before. In Filipino martial arts, I think. Your points seem legit. I always say, fight the way that is nost comfortable to you. Keep doing what you're doing. You just got yourself a new subscriber.
Thank you!
The most common example of a fighting dagger with a single edge and a guard that indicates which direction it is heldwould be a bauernwehr, and they have the nagel positioned so that it protects the hand properly when the blade is forward assuming it is wielded in the right hand, as they typically would be, so holding the blade back likely was not very common, otherwise the nagel on them would be on the other side. There are some examples of "sword breaker" style daggers where the ring is positioned so that the blade is facing backwards when held left handed (which would be normal for them because they were typically paired with a rapier or sidesword), but the dagger is not the primary offense when wielding a rapier and dagger and the spine is significantly different on those than any other daggers and it can probably be considered an outlier. It is also worth considering that if those daggers were held right handed, as most would if they were fighting using only a dagger, the blade is forward when the ring is positioned correctly.
I feel like I should bring up the fact that facing the blade towards you and cutting towards yourself with it puts you at major risk to slash your own face and torso if it slips off the opponents body or the opponent hits you hard enough
I see daggers more for grappling than a substitute of a sword. Because of it's length and size, it's perfect for when you body slammed an opponent to the ground and then stabbing the gaps.
Exactly! That's mostly why I think it's more useful to wield them with the blade facing you
@@LivingAnachronism that depends heavily though. In a straight up brawl where both of you have knives, it’s usually better to have your point or blade forward as you can punish or null grapple attempts with stabs or slashes. At the same time, both grips were used throughout history for different purposes and in a myriad of situations.
It was a lot of times a substitute for a sword though
in places like medieval Germany, you weren't allowed to carry swords, but everyone had knifes or daggers.
If a knife is all you have to attack or defend yourself with then yeah, you had to use it as a substitute sword.
If a knife was long enough (and a lot of times they were) you could apply sword fencing techniques to it and it was pretty much the most effective way to fight with it when you are not in grappling distance.
you carry edge up because your edge will remain sharp when not resting / bumping on the scabbard in travel
if you carry edge down, all the weight and motions of the sword dagger or knife will be translated on the edge, and not the spine
dirt and debris from travel also accumulates in the lower part of the scabbard, further increasing issues if the edge is near or even resting on it
for draws, you just change draws as needed, it is just in the wrist rotation,
This is considered thoroughly in Bowie knife techniques. Some traditional Bowie knives have brass spines to catch blades. It is called the mountain grip.
Thought it was a green screen until I saw you swat that bug. What a beautiful forest.
The bugs actually confuse the auto focus and make the lens look very flat, so while editing I also thought "people will think this is a green screen haha!
Wow, this is so cool, I've never come across anyone addressing this topic, love the video!
All my daggers are double bladed but I hold my sax with the sharp edge up since my most common stroke is the upwards thrust from under the shield. When striking from above the shield I do not change the grip.
I wear my sax hanging vertically on my belt, but if you have it hanging horizontally you can twist your wrist to draw it either way.
I love the horizontal scabbard the more I use it. They really new what they were doing back then. High versatile, and nice and out of the way!
I've been eagerly waiting for a tutorial like this, it's going to come real handy
What do you mean by that Kenia😕🤨
I like using the terms “Talon Grip” (point down/icepick) and “Snake Grip” (point up), taken from Apache knife fighting terminology when I’m teaching basic knife techniques. It sounds cool and conveys the direction of intent of your strikes.
If I may expand on your lesson: Where you place (on your person) the dagger and how it is hung can denote how it is drawn comfortably and swiftly.
Example: I hang mine at my belly in the center of my body. I can draw it with either hand & with either grip. For me this works, as my dagger is a backup and I need as many options as possible in the middle of a fight.
Other placements favor only one hand and/or a particular grip, which isn’t bad, it’s personal preference.
I like that terminology, I may end up adopting it. I also wear my personal edc knife same as you do. great comment, cheers mate
Thank you Shad for showing me this man.
Thank YOU for checking out my channel!
I just love this channel. Common sense experimental archeology with just the perfect amount of fantasy flavour. This has a similar vibe to Modern History TV channel, only he replaced the fantasy part with horses.
A fellow Warrior Poet! This is the 2nd video where you reference John Lovell. I like where your heads at.
Good to see you, brother!
@@LivingAnachronism Shad sent me, and now I'm making my way through your older videos. You convinced me to try and make my own Ruana cloak. Good stuff brother! Keep it up!
As someone who uses a knife a lot at my work (for utility) I love this video because this is one of my favourite grips
Especially for cutting ropes or ties on boxes
Reverse grip is only effective if the target it lower than the pivot, otherwise its a waste of energy and less effective because of blade angle. Its primarily good for backstabbing, as I have been the recipient of many of those, mainly figuratively but the physics still apply ;-)
3 years ago! This was quite enjoyable.
Supposedly, the "backhand" grip was the proper way of using the Bowie knife. From the manuals I've seen though, it seems icepick grip is actually preferred in medieval/renaissance times, because you can also hook from that position. It's interesting, icepick is generally preferred by the most inexperienced, then with knowledge/practice transition to the "proper" blade forward grip, then when they REALLY know what they're doing, it's back to the icepick.
Icepick is good for grappling, and I've heard it said that for duels, the person who wins is whoever realizes that you are grappling first.
I was a CQB instructor for the US Marines. You are on the right track. The movement of the blade dictates the direction of the edge. Grip also is a factor
If you read any of the early writings describing combat with Bowie knives in early America they talk about the cutting edge up. The Arkansas toothpick was a dagger like knife and was used this way as well as using what was called a complete grip which is cutting edges sideway with the thumb on the side of the blade.
Good posting you are on the right track!
This is similar enough to what I was going to say, that I will say you beat me to it.
very, very, VERY cool. Well, it makes sense, and what's more, the halberd is also like that, a straight tip, and the blade focused to cut more in the retraction movement. that about scripting the movement from a low blow to the top was very clever, I didn't know that. and katanas are normally used for cutting, but there are techniques (I think including in the book of 5 rings, when it says about a dull sword) to use them in reverse to pierce. and there is another type of sheath that also uses little material. place the blade on top of a piece of leather, join the parts together and sew it like you would patch a teddy bear (I don't even know the name of this seam in my language, let alone in English). I really liked the video and I will add it to a playlist. It really is an out of the box idea. You didn't say it, and I thought you would soon, but also, weapons of war were MUCH sharper than people think, and sharpening something takes time and wastes metal, so using the straight part to block saves a lot of sharpening time and life useful, this should be considered. Someday I'll have a good dagger made that can be used as a bush knife too, I've been wanting one with a 1 + 1/3 sharpening for some time.
Came here for Fantasy Novel research. This was helpful❤
Hi there again Kramer, just putting in my two pen'orth, (again!) I was given to understand it that a dagger is ALWAYS double-edged. If the implement has a spine, 'true -edge' and sharpened reverse tip, then it's a knife. It's what I was told years ago when I started in re-enactment here in the UK. Nice vid as always, keep up the good work!!
Interesting point! I've not seen that exact distinction, for example "Rondel Daggers" I believe can be single or double edged. Perhaps I use the german distinction of hilt construction. Thanks for sharing!
It's your choice of type of dagger and blade position. What is important is that you are well verse in using your selections.
pronation and supination sir. You were supinated. I've been liking this content man. Thankyou for your time.
As usual, a very interesting video. Thanks.
In most instances, the reason ice pick is used, isn't in a standing one vs one duel, its when grappling on the ground, which is why it was favoured a lot. First you grapple them, then you draw the dagger, which will almost always result in an ice pick grip, and then you stab him. If you are standing, and hoping to ward off his attacks, most manuals suggest ice pick as well, but I get the impression they are more about theory and wishful thinking, as its unlikely you can beat a guy with a sword, with a dagger, unless you are in an enclosed space
I dunno if you've tried it, but jabbing forward at neck/head level with an ice pick grip works extremely well. The motion is a bit of internal rotation at the shoulder. It feels much faster than a similar attack with a normal grip.
clinch pick and grappling got me here. nice video, very interesting. As a grappling trainer i think i just found my favorite hema weapon
greets from europe
I've seen someone punching into a blade and skinning himself. It's not pretty...
Personally, I wouldn't want to have my main edge facing to me, but it depends on various parameters and they also define, if it's tip-up, or down.
The most important factor is what the opponent is wearing!
Even today, people have survived machete attacks due to thick or resilient clothing. When it comes to mail, cutting becomes pointless!
You can thrust harder with the tip down and doing a chopping motion downwards. It is also a more defensive way of holding the blade.
However, when both combatants are essentially unarmored and equipped with daggers, the tip-up hold is preferable as it offers more range and allows for more angles of attack.
Having a double edge, or the edge facing you is useful in the following cases:
1) stabbing downwards or sideways. If the tip misses, it's still likely to cut.
2) hooking techniques. You can for instance put the blade behind the knee for a throw. If it cuts, it's a major injury, which is near fight ending. If it doesn't, it's still a throw...
3) the good old neck-slice.
Yep, and if you look at the manuals of the time, it was used in conjunction with grappling.
One thing when you stab someone would you rather stab thru bone mussle and a dense upper body or would you rather deal with a softer midsection? That's just my humble opinion to have the cutting edge in on a dagger.
In high/late medieval art - when armoured warfare/combat is shown the dagger is pretty much always shown thrusting - Mostly point down but occasionally point up thrusting at the arm pits or throat etc.
this goes with modern knife fights to the death - eg. shanking in prisons- that rapid powerful thrusts are more feared than slashes.
a seax is an exception as it is clearly made for cutting and thrusting - but they were popular in an era where armour was at most a mail shirt.
this is the best video on dagger fighting i have seen!! You seem to be a smart and nice guy. thanks alot
Thank you Bjorn!
the dagger itself is a natural weapon for a boxer as well as a wrestler, and the "backside gri / clinch pick" concept makes it even more powerful for fighting super close / clinch or even ground range....
I’ve been a viewer of your channel for a while now and I love your content. I found this video to be thought provoking and interesting. However, I’d like to politely disagree for a few reasons. I know I’m 2 years late, but I’d still like to add my 2 cents.
I think the biggest trap of taking on the topic of “how to fight with a knife” is that people feel the need to come to a conclusive answer. To borrow from the esteemed Matt Easton, in my mind and in my experience, it all depends on the context in which you intend to use your knife/dagger.
For instance, the clinch pick and the SOCP dagger (and fighting system) are built for the specific context of close-in fighting at grappling range due to the realities of modern civilian violence or military CQB. In both these cases you typically have no choice but to “start” the fight at such a close range so the blade upwards grip of the clinch pick and the ice pick grip of the SOCP dagger are more suited to a grappling scenario.
However, in a scenario where you expect to use a larger knife against another knife wielding opponent, the benefits of a conventional/standard knife grip can’t be overstated. The range and length of cutting edge gained by a standard grip are your best friend when it comes to surviving that kind of encounter. A standard grip is also still incredibly effective in a clinch/grappling scenario. The most common method for knife attacks (at least in the US) is for the attacker to grapple/post off the victim with one hand and prison shank with the knife held in a standard grip in the other hand.
To address the Bowie knife being wielded with a blade-up grip, I believe the reason is due to the proliferation of firearms. I believe that so much of the art and discussion around the implementation of the Bowie knife deals with fighting at grappling range specifically to negate the opponent’s use of a firearm. Trying to stay at range and duel with an opponent who also has a gun is an easy invitation for him to pull an Indiana Jones and blast you before you can use your years of knife training to filet him. I also believe this is why in SOCP, the dagger is meant to be used in a grappling context; it limits your opponent’s ability to shoot you with a firearm and also makes any of his friends less likely to shoot you as well (as they might not want to risk accidentally hitting their friend).
As I said in the beginning of the post, the thing I see most often ignored in discussions about knife fighting is the specific context in which you’re using the weapon. In my opinion there is no “right” way to wield a knife so long as it makes sense for your specific context.
That was far more interesting then I thought. And the idea of... skinning someone in self defenses, brutal but unless drugged, they would back down.
Man, this video made me think of so many combat possibilities! This video was amazing and is now one of my favorites if not the favorite of this channel, pity it doesn't even have 1000 views. It would be a good idea to cite this in the community tab for the new subscribers see it and it would be nice to make new videos about weapons and re-enactment/combat theories, you're good at that.
Greetings for the content!
Greetings! Thanks! This video was a little controversial, so I'm glad you enjoyed. More weapons videos are planned, provided I can get my hands on ones I don't already have, and I want to start actually being able to test/spar on the channel as well. All long works in progress
Thrusting is what we see designs based around anyway. If clothing was thick enough, as I've seen some suggest, that thrusting was the preferred design basis for a self defense weapon, then the only slash that would be most effective most of the time is a tipcut, which 3 inches of blade would be perfectly capable of.
From what i know about the Seax:
They would flip the scabbard before unsheathing their blade, just like they did in Japan with Katanas.
Your opponent thinking you’re a bit daft when you know what you are doing is a good thing.
The Bowie knife is held the same way when fighting, blade towards yourself with the spine and false edge tip towards your opponent!
I herd a similar explanation by a knife maker talking about fighting with a Bowie knife. I believe he used Indian and Mexican fighting styles but I think whatever works for you is the best method if you are comfortable with the way the weapon feel in your hand you can focus on the fight. I do not recommend trying to defend against a sword or axe with a dagger your feet provide a much better defense.
It's a rotten idea to parry with a sharpened blade as it will chip, bend and dull quickly. Also, yes, a thrust with a long point is far more deadly than a slash. I was not aware that a dagger was only partially sharpened in this way, but your whole video makes a lot of sense and was a great eye-opener!
I miss playing D and D so much! I have no friends😄. Good job like + subscriber
I flip knives with the blade facing away into reverse grip with the blade remaining in that orientation all the time.
I know what you're saying, but the 'um, actually' in me has to mention:
The 'true edge' of a blade is *defined* as being the one facing 'forward'. If you hold your dagger so that the spine is showing forward, then the couple inches above the spine that are sharpened are the true edge, not the full-length edge that is now facing you.
I heard that with the Dirk, you block indeed with the blade reversed against your forearm, but they blocked with the blade flat against not with the blunt edge.
i agree, especially when you have a "second / false edge"
IMO in a medieval setting, if it comes down to an armed fight with a knife - you should mainly use thrusts and go for a kill.
Maybe one could deter a fight with a bigger weapon, but with a knife it`s too risky.
Although I prefer an edge-forward fighting style, I would assume that IF the Vikings held knives with the spine forward to their enemies it'd be for a similar reason as bowie knives..."thrusts" to the abdomen are more like a 'punch" in the gut than a forward stab. Not only is the stab itself lethal, your opponent's own weight works against them, like falling on a guillotine. On that note, an advantage of having an unsharpened spine on the back edge of a knife or dagger is that you can baton the back of the blade...while it's inside someone, cutting even further into their body.
thank you, i loved this!
Well. That sounds like a intelligent idea
Dude, you're a hero. The info on the point first and then the rest, is physically super obvious and super smart. I got to remember that in creating my outfit. Just for the sake of asking: are blunted (1-edged) swords * like katana * stored at any particular way with e.g. the blunted side down to make backhand offense adventagious from the hip? Although, backhand works only when out of the scabbard, and you need to pull your sword so the pummle comes first, so maybe I'm not making sense.
I think it depends on the time period and culture. In the case of the saxe knife, I think it is blade up because that is the easiest way to make a sheath with the least materials. Some other cultures, like the Japanese, may do it because they like the draw technique. Later European single edged swords were worn edge down, I believe.
Did you consider a 90° rotated grip with the thumb on the side of the blade as if striking a Krumphau?
My preferred way to use a dagger:
- myself in armor
- opponent in armor
- grapple them to the ground
- stabby stabby between the plates
You said 'false edge' vs 'true edge', where I suspected to hear simply 'blunt' vs 'sharp' edge. I don't know, where you took it from, because as far as I know, the consensus is to always call the edge facing toward enemy, the 'true edge', and facing your forearm, the 'false edge'. So, if the edge facing the enemy is blunt, it's called 'true edge', when You rotate the blade, blunt edge becomes 'false edge'. I find it useful to use these terms in such a way and You may consider to do so as well.
Another thing is something, You only mentioned, that is, how those daggers were worn. This also affects, if more natural is to grip it blade up, or down... Or it was the other way around, and the preferred gripping method affected, how they were worn. Anyway, consider two examples: bollocks dagger, hanging blade down, at the front of Your belt, and a parry dagger, worn horizontally, behind your back.
True edge vs false edge is a good point. What faces your opponent is the true edge, I reversed the names on the fly because one of them isn't sharp, but you are correct, "sharp vs blunt" might have been more appropriate.
I always thought that the edge up was a thing because humans hit in arches and if the edge is up you cleave at the same time as you stab.
As always great video. I'd have to politely disagree, or at least outline some disadvantages with the spine facing them in a forwards grip. In my opinion, icepick grip is great for stabbing, with a lot of power, often up close, does not matter which side has the blade or back edge the point is the part that is doing the damage, in forward grip you can more effectively slash or cut((such as cutting the muscles in their forearms, or across their joints, etc)which maybe handy for disabling or disarming your opponent), so I'd personally want the whole sharp edge to offend the opponent, draw that full length across the inside of an elbow or something and you're going to be cutting pretty deep. Situation is pretty dire if you're planning on blocking a larger and heavier weapon with it I would be less concerned with the edge of my blade and more concerned about my life. Then again my quillion is double edged and my rondel is single edged so I would not have that option. Also If i was in the hypothetical situation of carrying either of those daggers and someone beset me even without a weapon, something is as only as good as you're prepared to use it. Going Non-lethal when someone is set on grappling you despite you having a lethal weapon like a knife? Well it depends on context but it don't ring right with me. Sure they might need some persuading that you're not afraid to cut them should they try something, but on the other hand, if the persuasion don't work, you're yourself at risk, especially if they manage to disarm you, take the weapon or otherwise disable you.
It makes total sense especially if your using it to block income blows from an opponents blade all while preserving the sharp side of your blade.
EE…I don't know about Medieval Daggers. Double-Edged Daggerswere quite popular on the Frontier. Daniel Boone had a Double Edged Dagger; supplied to the Indians by the French and subsequently inherited by Boone, Boone carried that dagger for Decades. Why was the Double-Edge popular? For much the same reason that Double Axes are popular. ONE edge was Razor-Sharp for fine cutting while the other Edge had a thicker edge for coarser work. IF I bought a Double-Quillon Dagger and it only had a sharpened Swedge on one side, I'd feel like I was cheated.
Interesting. Most of the fightbooks I've seen from the time almost always are in ice pick grip. Mostly for the advantage in grappling.
where did you get this dagger you had in the video
Could you teach me how to flip the dagger to change grips plz?
Check out my video on sword flourishing, the dagger flip is part of that tutorial
@@LivingAnachronism Ok I'll check that out thanks dude.
It's just my idea, but I've been thinking in maybe the seax were sheathed with the edge in the opposite side for a "respect principle". There are many traditions in several places that when you put a knife on the table, you should point the edge to you, so nobody would think you can grabe it and with a quick movement of hand, cut the person next to you. So maybe seax were sheathed with the edge facing up so it's not easy for you to attack someone in a blink. Just my idea.
I hadn't considered that, but it makes sense!
Take a look at Bowie knife fighting from the old west, it will help you with the dagger fighting.
Biggest thing about blank/'squared off" side of blade is 90% manufacturing process, 10% 'implied' technique.
All you need of a dagger is the top couple inches to be sharp & pointy to stab & puncture, & a cutting edge to slice.
For manufacturing, it's about saving time & moving on to the next piece/blade, especially way back then. Nowadays they're primarily stamped out shapes by machines, olden times all by hand & archaic machines - for all qualities of blades.
So leaving one side blank on a poor material blade [for example] just let the smiths get it done faster & let them move on.
From a medieval perspective, nome of what you posit is supported by evidence. While I’m no expert in Dei Liberi, I am generally familiar with its dagger techniques, and I know a good bit about /Lichtenaeur (which is literally the only other medieval source; we have no evidence of how one might fight with a seax, for example. I’ve also studied a fair bit of modern knife combatives, though to be fair that’s not especially relevant.
One is never shown blocking with a dagger at all. Ever. Every technique in the Lichtenauer system, and to the best of my recollection in Dei Liberi as well, is there a dagger technique wherein one blocks an attack with the blade. One displaces the attack against the arm of the attacker, either with the hands or with the blade. And while the masters are not explicit in how the blade should be oriented, there are several techniques which the long edge should definitely be the sharp edge. The low to high backhand cut is simply never shown, but would be dome differently than you show it in thd forehand grip; you _would_ lead with the point. It’s not hard to accomplish, and I’d much more in keeping with Lichtebauer;d principles.
I will note that changing grips by spinning the blade around is likely to get you killed very dead unless your opponent has stepped out for coffee. I have had this *ahem* point driven ho,e painfully in my youth. Don’t do it.
Hi, who makes this dagger and what is it called?
Hi! I'm new to the channel and really enjoying the content! I'm just an aspiring writer and kung fu practioner so I will ask this from sincere intrigue and respect, since I have scarse knowledge of european fighting techniques. The question is: Don't you think that blocking an impact with the ice pick grip and the dagger against your forearm would provide very little protection? I mean, let's say you block a sword attack, wouldn't the sword continue to press and slide/cut against your flesh past the point of contact with the dagger? I sense that, at most, it would be of some aid if you were moving away from the attack and used the dagger to avoid contact with the edge... Idk I'm just picturing that kind of blockage amidst the chaos of combat and it just seems to have a really narrow chance of being effective. Plus, reversing the grip means that for a second you run the risk of losing grip (let's say you lose balance or someone bashes into you). What I mean is... Do you think it would be worth it or useful agains a real threat?
When I am “blocking” with a dagger, in either grip, and what I teach my students, it to use a Tai Chi approach when possible. Use it as a surface to glance the force of the blow away like water, avoiding hard blocks when possible. You can hard block another dagger, but when the mass of the attacking weapon increases, a well timed fluid motion takes less effort and allows for a follow up bind, control or repose (counter strike). This is one “school of thought” and fits with my own fighting technique.
Bill Bagwell, infamous Bowie guru: "there is NO defense against The Back Cut."
Excuse me how tf are you switching to icepick grip i wanna learn to do that
Site to get the dagger?
This is a great concept. Love it! Whatever happened with you joining Shadiversity?
I have not seen anyone cover using a dagger with a curved guard or quillons such that quillons can be used to capture the attacker's sword. This seems a valuable option when presented with a single sword armed attacker. Thoughts?
0:20 my dentist wood beg to differ
In episode two, season five of The Last Kingdom (the newest season), Uthred and a couple of others in his party use their seaxes in exactly this manner...
SPOILER....
As they enter Yorvik via the old Roman sewer about 6 minutes into the episode.
Also in episode three where Uhtred comes to Aethelstan's rescue about 11 minutes from the end.
Also in episode four, at the very end of the intro portion when Haestan tells his man to cut down the lady hung from a tree, the man draws his seax forehand, but the blade is upside down (edge up.)
Where did you get your henley shirts from?
Uniqlo. They don't always have them, they were a rare find!
@@LivingAnachronism thx for the reply!
This is a great video, but now I just wanna see a full minute or two or you doing knife tricks.
I don't agree with your comment that bracing on your arm is preferable to a blade-up block.
Although it puts less strain on your wrist to do so, you actually increase the chance of your arm being hit, because your opponent is not static. They're not just gonna bounce off when you block, they're likely to push through and now their blade is only an inch from your forearm, which can debilitate you completely because it is the hand you are holding the dagger in.
I have blocked two-handed blows from a metal katana with a parrying dagger of similar size to yours (in a cross training where I paired it with a Rapier) and there was no strain on my wrist because I caught the strike on the strong of my dagger and pushed into it, allowing the force to distribute down my arm. The dagger did not budge, there was only risk to the hand if I got the angle wrong.
Ice-pick/reverse grip is preferred for having more angles to thrust from, or for hooking action. It doesn't do very much else well, and in my experience doing full-contact sparring with a dagger, I've never needed to brace it against my arm. All that does is limit your ability to block, not heighten it.
Hey I was curious about knives. I've read that people in medieval times would carry a knife as part of their EDC. So much so that there was a reminder to remove your knife belt before bed. Anyways, what sort of knife would this have been? This all the time knife. Would it have been the size of a modern pocket knife or would they have been bigger and more like a dagger/hunting/combat knife? I thought I had asked this question elsewhere but I couldn't find it and wanted your opinion!!
I think it depends on the time period, and what culture. Tod's Workshop has some excellent videos on the history of knives. From what I've seen, the everyday knives would have been dagger sized, more than pocket sized (they didn't have pockets anyway). And I believe for the lower classes, many would be carrying single edged knives.
@@LivingAnachronism I love that you reply to questions! Looking forward to more videos!
flaying someones arm in medieval times would more likely kill them than not, I wouldnt say thats a good move if you also want to claim you werent trying to kill them.
Verily, Constable, I was nae trying to kill him. He just got his arm in the way of me edge!
1:25
Focus went to the background
That camera had trouble auto focusing on a face with that depth of field. I'm using a new camera now, shouldn't be an issue
@@LivingAnachronism I think the camera just got shy of your handsome face)))
Interesting theoretical analysis, some things that I see being problematic in practical scenario. Bears further looking into and experimentation. Also for further reading, I'd strongly suggest "Highland Knife Fighting" by Thompson.
Where did you acquire your stage combat dagger?
It is from a company called Rogue Steel roguesteel.com/
Your argument on the scabbard lace up and why, I think can be countered by the katana. Not well known, the katana was notorious for eventually cutting threw thier own scabbard. Why? When drawing the weapon, the edge naturally has an uneven pressure comming out of the scabbard. How the blade is drawn puts an uneven pressure on the sharp edge to the scabbard. Normally, the side with the most pressure on a horizontal scabbard is on downside. If you want to extend the life of the scabbard, you design accordingly. Thats why your viking sheath is the way it is. Sadly, not due to edge alignment after the drawing of said blade.
Actually my argument takes this into account if I remember correctly. Viking scabbards were designed blade up because it's the easiest way to get a welt in to protect the stiching and put in belt loops at the same time, using the least amount of materials, so you are correct. I might have talked about that in a different video or this one, can't remember. But my theory here isn't that scabbards were designed this way because edge alignment, but that the way that scabbards/sheathes were designed might have had an influence on the way that the dagger or knife was wielded.
@@LivingAnachronism I understand, but I think it's (scabbard design) is deceiving you on the end direction of the blade once drawn. Then again, you could be right.
Thank you for responding so kindly to my comment. In this day and age, it's rare to have such a gentlemans level of debate. I look forward to your future videos.
Interesting *stabs with pole arm*
True. Gg.
@@LivingAnachronism bruh
The true edge should be aligned with your bodies range of motion whether in natural or reverse grip your utilization of it whether eating or defense and your own understanding/skill is the only gauge🃏 A reverse grip might be better for parrying long reach weapons whereas the natural grip will definitely be more dexterous and adaptable.
The way you twirp it around is flashy but serves a purpose of transitioning from one to the other. . .think you can do that under duress? 🃏🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣✌️
Who made this dagger?
The dagger is by Rogue Steel, the Seax Knife is by Baltimore Knife and Sword.
Any good links for dagger sellers?
It really depends on what you are looking for. Cult of Athena has a great selection. I personally love Medieval Collectibles. Armstreet is a good source, but pricy. Dark Sword will have some options. My Seax is from Baltimore Knife and Sword. If you want something that will be "combat ready" make sure you do thorough research on the tang construction and the type of steel.
Its like a bayonet.
Bled edge upward
The only time you'd want to use a reverse grip is if you're in very close quarters such as with your back up against a wall *OR* fighting an unarmed opponent... but that would make *YOU* the bad guy in the (legal) real world. If fighting an armed opponent you need to create distance and use the forehand grip for longer reach and speed, keeping your knife hand forward. You want to slash at the incoming hand or inside wrist (tendons) to disarm your opponent. If you're attempting to block you are too close. Reverse rip 'cuts' your reach considerably which means you have to bring your body closer to the opponent. Deadly mistake. Once your opponent is disarmed you can use the more powerful (but slower) reverse grip to finish him off *OR* to apply leverage and locks if you don't want to finish him off.
drawing blade up, like japanese swords, can go straight into cuts
all make since seeing as in you block with the blunt side flat of the it will be less li to chip or dull the blade it shelf! to there is that to! 🤔
There is one thing on which I must correct you, and the rest I know fairly little about, being that I do not study daggers or manuscripts about daggers aside from the rondel, which you have erroneously reported as having an edge and a false edge. I dispute this. The rondel dagger has three flat faces and no cutting edges. It is quite literally an icepick designed to stab your opponent's face through their visor.
that is one type of rondel blade yes. but not all blades are like that. and a weapon is more often defined by its grip/hilt design and length, rather than the blade itself.
@@drago2210 regardless that is how a rondel dagger is defined. No sharp edges, it's an ice pick. There are other types of daggers, yes, but those daggers are not rondel daggers.
Have you any experience of actual fighting practice with knives? If you don't, i' d suggest trying it out and trying that grip in practice. I think it would not make that much of a difference, since you'll probably be mostly parring arms instead of blades and using your knife to stab at very close range, where you will never be inconvenienced by the lenght of the weapon or the facing of the blade. So, cool idea, try it and then tell us how it works!
I do, my theory is that it actually wouldn't affect that much, but that having the ability to use the cutting edge to pull away with, as more of an escape maneuver, might be more advantages that a purely offensive stance, if you only had a single edged knife, and didn't want to fight to the death, just incapacitate your opponent and end the dangerous scenario as quickly as possible.