I've heard it said that, in a knife fight, the difference between the winner and the loser is that the loser dies at the scene of the fight and the winner dies in the ambulance on the way to the hospital.
Ah, damnit... I've had a video about the saber grip vs. reverse grip with knives and daggers on my to-do list for a while. When I finally get to it people are going to accuse me of "ripping off" your video. :) Because, you know... on TH-cam you're never allowed to talk about a topic that someone else has covered in a video before, otherwise you're just "stealing ideas".
...there's nothing wrong with stealing an idea for a topic, but unless you want to be thought of as the lesser man you'll have to do yours poetically as well! :o>
Stop ripping off Lindybeige Skall. It is obvious that only one person can have each opinion/idea first, and that everyone else is a non-talent copy, regardless of whether they are aware of that person or not.
@BBB H Come in, we live in america haha. Don't at like there aren't people carrying out there that would pull a fun on a attacker with a knife. Grant, running is a very viable solution, and the one I suggest lol.
There are two main ways to hold a knife; One point up, and one point down. Now, in a knife fight, the prize is your life; Not just avoiding some slit in your gown. So you've got to get it right, this is a fight; But which is the better way? Well, perhaps it would shed some light If we see what the treatises say. Now, they seem quite clear; They prefer by far the downward, or ice-pick grip; True, the other way they don't exactly bar, But they never show us that flip. It's of the rondel that they seek to teach us; It's thin and stabby and long. But, what sort of techniques have failed to reach us? Perhaps the choice of the rondel is wrong? Now I learnt my knife fighting with a knife like this; It's shorter and fatter and cut-y. An attacker with this [the rondel] is just taking the piss Against me with this; he's surely putty! I learnt through re-enactment and kung fu, Not late medieval sources, And I know that complacency will never do, So I took some HEMA courses. I went along with an open mind, And took a wooden thing like this (for safety's sake). I tried out their moves to see what I could find, And, boy, the next day I didn't half ache. I found that my first suspicion proved true: The ice-pick grip limits your angles. There really is just one thing you can do, and I'd like more options when my life dangles by a thread, I'm *this* close to death, I can feel my heart's heartbeat drumming; This could be my last pain-free breath. With just one opening move, he'll see it coming! It's a good stab, I'll grant you: It's hard and downward and deadly, But one stab is many too few. Now, you hold it *this* way, you've got a medley! Try this: hold it 'ice-pick' on the outward side; You get to here and you're weak, and in pain. A half-decent force here [the wrist] applied, And down you go, unlikely to rise again. It's feeble, and slow, and so easy to block; An attack from here just spells doom. I mean, look: you've near enough got me in an arm-lock And you're not even in the same room! Now, the treatises do show some attacks That drop low, and come up like so; But try that, and I'll be relaxed; A big move like that is so slow. You offer your elbow like this to a foe, One push exposes your back and your head. So I know you're not going to land that blow; Before that: forget it, you're dead. Now, almost everything starts from here [the stab]; So after the block, what next? Well, assuming you can overcome your fear, You could try what it says in the text. Typically you start by grabbing the blade; It's long, so it serves well as a lever; Its length acts as a disarming aid; And it's thin, so it's not much of a cleaver. But it's often, at least, just a little bit sharp; So, oh! Mightn't you cut your finger? Well, the alternative is you start playing the harp, So just grab it, this is no time to linger. Now, I'll choose something shorter and sharper, And I'll grip it my way, and we'll see who's the harper! And while you go in for some big twist, I'll slash you - it's quicker - and put a gash in your wrist. I'll cut through your tendons, under your arm, And turn your limb into so much slack rope. I have faith in the speed I do harm. You dope, to pin on ice-pick grip your hope. There are other ways, as shown by the likes of Fairbairn Skyes To stab and slash in a hundred strikes! So come our dagger duel, I'll hold it my way. You hold it yours, and we'll see who carries the day Having taken pause to reflect... Maybe I wouldn't. Because that's just what you'd expect.
Good grief! Now that, I didn't expect. When I wrote it down, I spelled the raspberry before "forget it - you're dead!" thus: "thththththp!" I fluffed the line about heart beats. It should be "heart beat's hard drumming". I also paraphrased a lot and added 'err' a lot and 'you know", partly as I struggled to recall the next line, but also to make it seem more conversational.
Lindybeige Congratulations on the poetry aspect of the video. As for the topic it´s very simple: the ice pick grip was used against foes with some type of armor because against armor cut strikes are meaningless with such a small weapon and you need more power in your stabbing strikes or in case of a backup surprise move because it´s easier and quicker to draw your dagger in a ice pick fashion (at this point reach it´s not an issue because in a backup surprise move your opponent is already close to you) it was used primarily by knights to finish off other knights when they were at close range aiming the dagger at the armor gaps or at places where the armor was lighter. The other type of grip is best when your fighting enemies without armor and you have time to draw your dagger before the fight begins because it gives you, like you said in the video, more options and more reach.
***** except all the ones that show ice pick being used in armour... The issue is between sudden need after primary weapons have failed or are unavailable and duelling when one has time to prepare and approach an opponent from out of distance
***** and I didn't say that you did, I was pointing out that , while you said that most sources are for un-armoured fighting, I was just pointing out that there are plenty of sources for armoured use too, as you say the under hand grip is the most commonly seen in medieval European use. Also master lik Fiore, state whether a action is good for armoured or unarmured or both. With illustration in MS and fechtbuch though as in them we also see unarmoured half swording and poll axe, which could lead us to believe that these were to be used out of armour too...
The main reason rondel daggers are meant to be used in the ice pick grip is because they were meant for use against armored opponents. You have to make it into the openings, and then push through padding and possible chain mail. It takes the power afforded by the ice pick grip to do that well.
According to the legend of the Daleks, the Doctor would appear in many faces. He is always a threat which ever clothes he gets. There may be a leather jacket or a piece of tweed, but never in beige he has been seen. But then it may be true Lindy Beige is his hidden name, used to rest from Daleks, Cybmen and rest with Amy's child, his wife, the ever soo lovely River, always just a Song in his mind.
I've come back to this multiple times. I love it really, not just because it actually ryhmes. This is my favourite video of yours. It makes everything I hear said a short period afterwards sound really weird of course. The point is that it's both interresting and fun, lindybeige, well done.
The challenge's accepted As you have expected You fight point up - the dagger's mine! To see what style is going to shine With one addition, my mate: We are covered in ... full plate.
I was always under the impression the Rondel Dagger was made specifically to deal with armored fighters, presumably you also wearing armor. I mean, personally, I would imagine a swift slash would be useless against a chain mail or anything heavier like plate mail. Wheras, you need the extra power of the ice pick grip to deal with armors.
***** I always thought it referred to plate and mail, as in the two of them at the same time. And humans being lazy sods just dropped the and over time.
But the Rondel is an anti-armor dagger used mainly for stabbing, and the icepick-grip might be the ideal type of grip to get enough power to do some damage against an armored foe? For slashing type daggers it would be another story altogether though
_But Rondel is a dagger used for stabbing,_ _the icepick-grip might be ideal for damaging_ _even the armored foe? For slashing type daggers,_ _it would be another story altogether._
RainbowDevourer You can't stab through steel. It wont happen. You can go for the visor or unplated joints, but thats where you need precision more than force.
That feel when you finally realize he's been rhyming the whole time. I had to go back in the video like "has that motherfucker been....oh yup...yup YUP YAP! HE'S RHYMIN!" Goddammit Lindybeige that was well played.
only just realized this was all rhyming....now I have to watch the whole thing again......very genius.....I had wondered if such a thing was possible, prose in conversation, would it be imperceptible? pulled it of for a good 4 minutes......a mild criticism...fell into a bit more obvious rhythm towards the end.....going back again to check for iambic....
It's insane how well he can speak in pre-written verse, yet make it seem like he's just ad-libbing and talking about whatever dagger information comes into mind. Not just his way of speaking but his mannerisms too. So I don't feel *too* stupid not realizing this was a poem until it was almost over. Lindybeige is just excellent at words. (if you haven't seen his video for his award-winning poem "an incomplete life" you should go watch it now.)
You just took it to a whole another level, I'm really impressed. It took me a minute and a quarter to figure out it rhymed at all, so it sounded really natural as well. Looking forward to more similar videos.
Strangely enough, your recitation of the poem comes across so casual that during the entire first viewing I didn't even realize it rhymed. Congratulations to that!
What's with the British and their penchant to rhyme? It annoys me so much, it should be a crime! Please pass the lyrics in your next diatribe, lest my hand be forced and I'll unsubscribe!
Please stay your hand, show some sobriety, I did this just for variety. A New Year surprise - an attempt at a treat, But with you, I surmise, one that led to defeat. Others may rhyme, but not about spears, And not all of the time, to please others' ears.
"You've near enough got me in an arm lock and we're not even in the same room!" That was so hilarious man, thanks for the laugh. I just discovered your videos and I can't get enough of them!
The masters of old have taught us to heed the directions they brought us. Now you may think yourself a clever trout by wildly slashing and heaving all about. But as Liechtenauer says and patiently shows, you will not find truth with such florid blows. So keep your Fairbairn and your Seagal I’ll stick with Talhoffer and Paulus Kal.
A test cutting video by Skallagrim brought me to this conclusion: Even a simple cloth can reduce the effectiveness of glancing strikes by a considerable margin. Now, think of the kind of clothing the people with rondel daggers wore; Wasn't it considerably thicker and with more layers than modern clothing? The poofy arms alone speak volumes to that I think, though I would like an experts opinion or some data on the matter ere I draw a final conclusion. I wonder if they traded off the versatility of the sword-grip for the stabbing power needed to get through thick clothing.
Huh, the way you recited this was so convincing that i thought it was one of your regular videos, i didn't realise it was in verse until i watched your clarifying video. Very impressive Lindy!
This is Thrand! I will do a reply video as well with actual combat and testing if any are interested. I might wait until Skallagrim puts his out so can address both Skall and Lloyd. This is a subject I know very much about and would love to do a comparison video of the grips :D
Some did not understand our points or testing results properly so made an Explanation video to our testing reply :D Dagger fighting Reply to Lindybeige or Lloyd Explanation th-cam.com/video/X8pC1sExhw4/w-d-xo.html
I've seen the sword grip also referred to as the Saber grip. And while so many people are obsessing about the grip they conpletely ignore the one of the most important aspects of dagger/knife fighting: Footwork. Thanks for another outstanding video.
ah, here's a subject i can speak on with a little authority. i've had three altercations with people with knives (ignoring the time when i had a knife, and it was bigger, and they left me alone) and i've been stabbed twice. naturally, i spent a lot of time since then learning more about knives. the interesting thing is that only one of these people came at me with the 'ice-pick' grip, as you describe it, and that was the time where i, unarmed, was able to kick the blue blazes out of them before they managed to land a hit. the two times that they came at me with a knife held like a sword, i did get stabbed, in more or less the same spot, perhaps a flaw in my combat style. out of pride, i should like to add that neither time would i say i 'lost' these altercations, always a case of you should see the other guy.
***** for a start, it puts a shock of adrenaline through you which really messes with you. i couldn't tell if the knife was burning hot, or freezing cold but it felt like on of the two. i could also feel the knife pressing my skin in until the point where the tip broke into the skin, and then i could just feel each individual cell tearing. very unpleasant.
If you are telling the truth do you know how much damage could have been done to you? That area of the body contains the stomach, spleen, the left lung the splenic artery and the phrenic artery. Stabbing any of those is fatal without urgent medical attention.
TimenyCricket because my reaction to a knife-wound should be 'oh, i don't need to go to the hospital for this...' but sarcasm aside, what sane person does not seek medical attention in that scenario?
The "ice pick" grip works well with karate training. It encourages elbow strikes, not "ice picking." I assure you it is very effective in the hands of a trained martial artist. ("Ice picking" is the worst thing you can do. It is slow and easily blocked.) A sharp blade can eviscerate several arteries in a second. Yet for someone trained in medieval weapons, the fencing grip is superior. There are dozens of good strikes, many of them fight ending. In the end, training is the big determiner. Skill with whichever style beats a lack of skill. If two people with "equal" skill in their styles fought, I would expect them to kill each other within 5 seconds. Neither style blocks the other well. BTW, I've spared against both.
I think the main point of the overhead stab is how quickly it is executed from the draw. The dagger was usually worn at the right hip, and the quick draw and downward stab is easily done from that position. I generally emphasize that this is more combat of immediacy, and not a dueling style. You see in various texts the underhanded stab used almost as frequently. Another point worth mentioning is how difficult it can be to cut through sturdy cloth, especially something with layers or padded. Just a few points to consider.
So very good lesson. I had a friend who ran with Portuguese knife fighting gangs for a bit. He was swearing by ice pick and and I showed him some other techniques that really opened him up to the possibility of forward grip. Also easier to throw from forward.
Wow. As an completely oblivious person i did not so much as blink twice at this video. Only when i watched the followup did i hear the entire video is in verse. I came back to watch it, and now it's so obvious I can't tune it out 😂😂 well done lindybeige, well done 👍🏻👍🏻
The blade down 'ice pick grip' has its advantages as well. Although you have to be closer (distance!), an 'ice pick grip' inside stab (rather than your demonstrated outward stab) has MORE power. The grip is also better suited for grappling & hooking. Bottom line: each grip has its pros & cons. One should train in both grips & be prepared to use either, depending on what the situation is.
Depends on the person and purpose of the knife. The reverse is most used by military because it's the usually the fastest deployment from their vest. Also depends on the laws like for me I legally can carry a fixed blade with a good reason. Self defense apparently isn't a valid reason. Which is bs. So I got a flick one that will always open up in the forward grip.
Also depends on if you get ambushed our if you know you will have to use your knife. So reverse could be a quick way to draw. While forward is the preferred choice for heading into a fight.
Lindybeige is basically a living Dungeons and Dragons human bard. He's good with his wording and humour, yet knows how to use practically any weapon better than a skilled knight or warrior could. He'd be fun at the book and die. He could be his own army back six centuries ago.
Many years ago I was telling a story to a new person in the presence of an old friend who, like me, is a poet. I found myself falling into iambic pentameter quite by accident. It was kinda cool. My friend noticed, and grinned and nodded to encourage me. I lost it completely. Well done. I just might steal this.
I have always assumed you'd hold ice-pick-like if you had a more defensive or reactionary mindset. Think of how a boxer uses his forearms to protect himself against an aggressive opponent. Now adopt this posture but put a knife in your hand, obviously you'd want it pointed at them. This posture keeps your forearm out at all times ready to deflect or push aside your opponent's arm, or their whole body if they try to grapple. After doing so, the blade is right there angled for a plunge into the torso, or neck after a higher parry. Holding it normally all you can do is awkwardly slash after a deflection. The Forearm, of course is the best part of your body for getting cut, or taking any sort of abuse, especially if you've got some padding or leather on it. Again, this is why boxers fight the way they do. I was always taught to use the top of the forearm to protect yourself from someone with a blade in any case. I was under the impression this was pretty fundamental for self-defense. Generally, you want to be keeping your forearm between you and their blade at all times, and when they extend themselves too much, you give them a quick snap for a deadly stab. Try it out, it actually feels very natural. As you said, there is much wider use of a blade held regularly, and that's true, but your core is weak and your movements broad. If I am tucked in like this sure I may take a few superficial slashes, but once I'm inside your attack, which is a position you've help put me in, my knife will be buried to the handle, and you won't be walking away from that.
Having practiced knife fighting myself, I say the face down grip is better. With it you can block incoming blows using the flat of the knife, allowing your arm to act like a spring and take most of the force out of their strike. It also allows the use of upwards and sideways slashing motions, both of which are great for getting under the arms, armpits, and across the neck. Lastly, I'd feel like in classical warfare that using a downward grip with a buckler would be more advantageous in terms of speed, where you could block with the buckler and bring the knife out behind or beneath it it to go for their hands holding the sword, axe, or mace.
Very well done. I didn't become suspicious of your use of verse until about four minutes in. I didn't know for certain it was all in verse until you finished saying "I do you harm." Then I re-watched the whole video. Well done indeed, Lindybeige.
Have you looked at Native American or FMA to see the ice pick grip done? There's more ways than you showed to utilize that grip. The Karamit is primarily used in that reverse grip and its very effective. Just check things out past kung fu which is not a spectacular way of learning knife fighting IMO and check out those whose culture revolves around it.
Get 2 practice karambits and give one to some random guy who doesn't train and tell him to hold it tip up then spar him with yours tip down. Post the results of you intentionally giving up range, power, and the ability to slash from left to right for my amusement plz.
+Mike Reis Good point. Also check modern special force training. My understanding is icepick grip generate more power, and has more defensive moves (think to use dagger to block another dagger/sword). However, doesn't matter how you get around it, this position does limit your attack movement. It also limit your attack range, so fighting style with icepick grip is always very very close to each other. The other way, I think it is called sabre grip, offers a great range of attack options, and it has reach advantages. The problem with it is there is very little defensive moves you can do. Which grip to use, is depending on which one you are trained with, and whether you focus on attack, or more defensive position in mind. I'm practically untrained in both, but if my life depends on it, I do sabre grip, and go offensive option.
+GuitarsRockForever That's a very well done comment! I agree with the lack of range since the blade is closer to you, but its advantage is easily concealed and you can use the weapon to manipulate limbs of your enemy to open them up. And since if you're using a knife you are already in close quarters where its even an option so having it concealed is a bonus since a knife should be felt not seen. There is also the hammer grip as well as the saber grip and there are a few ways to hold a knife more than just two, and it does come down to what you're comfortable with. Using a front grip is something many people do and it does give range and with a flow and untrained person can use that grip better than a reverse grip. I've worked with SF people in the past and I work with tactical knife applications a lot! And not many of them come from kung fu inspiration. The more effective stuff you'll find embedded in cultures that utilize knives more.
Mike Reis Again, I'm not expert, I only based my opinion on what I've seen, with almost no personal experience. Hammer grip, IMO is the weakest, most limited grip you can do with a dagger. I'm also thinking from defensive perspective, defending attacker holding dagger in icepick grip, you need to mostly focus on his/her elbow. If you can control elbow, you are safe from the blade. IMO, that limits what you can do to attack. It is not saying icepick grip is no good, but just saying it has its disadvantages. sabre grip is harder to defend against from what I know. I think special force people use both grip depending on what they need at time.
This is why you should do as much training as possible. I'm doing a book review on a 4 vol. set of tactical knife combat, and will leave a link for it. It would give you an education that would help you understand different things about knife fighting.
Had to thumb's up when you said grab the blade as a defence as this ties in so much with my own experience. I was stabbed multiple times through the chest and stomach, last October by a ten inch kitchen knife. I survived, half through luck and half by grabbing the blade and wrestling the guy to the ground. We were next to an armchair and I thrust the blade deep into the cushion and his hands slipped off from the blood. Then I had the knife. I'm not trained, I was very lucky. But one thing I often think of since is that we all wonder how we would cope in that situation and I am so glad I did not succumb to fear.
I am no expert in knife fighting but i was talking it over and looking through the options and i found that the point down technique is better because at least in a modern day setting weapons are short. Most people hold their weapon in the right hand so you can try to grab their wrist with your left hand and put your knife to their throat. If they try to bring up their left arm to grab your right arm you can very easily stab their right arm with the knife point down and move it back up to the throat again, with the point down.
Bizarrely, this is take one. I did one more complete take (with a few fluffed partial takes before it) but ended up using the first. I liked its more conversational feel. The delivery was closer to my normal prose tone, which I thought was unusual. I keep saying things like 'you know' and 'err', which makes the fact that it is a poem weirder.
It's good that you mentioned Fairbairn-Sykes, the Commando style of dagger fighting always recommended the standard grip over the ice pick, for many of these same reasons. Ice pick might be handy if you're stabbing an unaware unarmed person but you can do just as much damage and be more discrete at the same time holding the dagger lower down and driving it upwards.
"the Swiss army knife in my hand. Know this shit corny, but it can end the life of ya' fam" -Sean Price, RIP... stabbing poetry has in fact been a thing for quite a while but I like this new approach... its significantly more... beige.
You make a good case about holding a knife; but whatever you think, you'll be dead in a fight. The way Lindybeige holds his knife; is for cutting steak and not for fight. You can't scrap worth a crap; and my ice pick grip will give you a smack. I like your style and I like your poem; but, at the end of the day.... just stay home.
Just watched another of your videos where you mentioned this one was actually a poem. I apologize I'd not noticed this on the first viewing. I have to confess that now with a bit more attention you've made it painfully obvious and I applaud your talent in execution. Thank you for the entertainment!
I would say that the icepick grip makes the most sense if you are mostly grabling and use the dagger as a finisher. In medieval times there was maybe an advantage in the fact that the ice pick grip forces you to get close fast, if you have to use your dagger against a sword or polearm getting close would be your best option.
First sorry for my poor english, i would say that i just discoverd your channel and i really enjoy your videos, i'm a swiss student studiing medieval history, i dont know if i will be read but i've got a different view of the question so i will try to explain my point... But i need to underline that you do a fantastic job on the text of this video! Congratulations, i love it! The fact that the representation of dagger is always shown in a "pickaxe grip" is to link with the very natur of the dagger, it's a weapon for cowards, for murdering and durty stuffs in the shadows. With the pickaxe grip, you can dissimulate it easly in your sleeve and shown your blade at the very last moment. Even during a fight, it's possible to hide the blade behind your arm in the way that your opponent can't predicte whitch way you will slice (from right to left or left to right). I agree that some of the representation/texts in the Fighting books of the end of Medieval age and of the Modern Ages speak about dueling with daggers in pickaxe position and i think that in this very unique composition (two people holding both a knife and dueling, you will have some conditions to fill to have that), it's a bit strange and unefficient... I feel like the knife combat is more about exchanging some slice until one didnt got enough blood (strange sentence, sorry again for my english) and energie to counter the final hit. In this way, i will reuse my first argument : You can keep your distance, hide the way you will hit and make a slice and going back to your safe distance, etc till the last hit... Like your conclusion said it, the pickaxe grip is much more sneaky, what an appropriate way to use a coward weapon (say me if you agree on the cowardness componant of the dagger), that's why this representation is so much shownd, it accentuate the total contradiction with the vertues of chivalry in use in this time. I would last say that i totally follow you on the stigmatisation of french history/people/... it make me laugh a lot and it's not because i share my langage with this people that i will support their pretentious historiography. I cant wait to go see your video about Long Messer but it will be for tonight: now, back to studies.
Firstly, loved the verse. Re-watched the video with tremendous mirth. Secondly, the ice-pick grip does have some merit. You have a hefty downward stab. You can trap the opponents arm with the back of the blade. You can "punch" with the blade at the opponents wrist if they were to stab or slash from the opposite side, or straight-on at their face. You can also punch your opponent in an effort to daze them. :) I'll grant that it may be less effective than the usual grip, but not as ineffective as most might think.
Just for note, dropping low and striking isn't actually slow. To add, you may drop out of the sight of your opponent. (I've found it useful in actual street fights for delivering a blow.) You can drop and step forward in the same movement shortening the movement into a single motion making it quite quick.
What's astonishing sir, is not the knowledge you display Nor the assertions you make Rather it's the hugely impressive fact that You made this video in one take
There are more options to the icepick grip and it is actually very useful if you put sufficient training into it (as with anything else). Of course different people favor different techs. What is the best for you may not be the bet for me and vice versa. But the main issue IMO is to not get tunnel vision but instead recognize the potential and the limitations of whatever material youre working with. There is no perfect move. All techniques and strategies have their strengths as well as their weaknesses.
In pictorial references, the dagger is held pointing down. The reason for such a limited weapon seems to be to stab the body through exposed parts of armor: neck and testicles, the latter probably giving the name to some medieval daggers "testicular", as well as the shape of their guards. Note too that although dagger fighting is found illustrated (eg. in the Wallerstein codex), it's more often than not seen sheathed at the waist as a secondary weapon. The other purpose for a dagger would be to provide a killing blow, giving it the name "misericordia" ("mercy").
Hi Lloyd. I just got to watching this one. Have you discussed this topic with any special forces people? When I was a student (in the 70's) one of the staff was an ex WW2 commando. He taught a grip that has the haft diagonally across the palm, so the blade could point in line with the forearm. He demonstrated how much harder it was to break this grip also. Nice poem, up there with the Skalds.
Extremely impressive writing and delivery! A five minute reading done cleanly in one take. I'm surprised you don't prefer the reverse grip coming from a kung fu background. I learned on double daggers and the reverse grip become automatic.
I learned many years ago that the human body has evolved to protect vital organs from downward strikes ie lion claw. Hence the shape of our rib cage. This makes reverse grip limited in effect. In a knife fight repetitive frenzied upward strikes to the abdomen as shown in prison films provide the best chance of hitting vital organs thus minimising dying. In a knife fight you will get cut and stabbed so you have to make sure you stab more effective and often. Oh and don't forget to kick, punch, headbutt, knee, elbow and bite because knife fight is messy and the only way to minimise your own injury is to finish it quickly.
From 'Kill or be Killed" (published 1943) by Maj. Rex Applegate, a student of Fairbairn and Sykes: "The ideal weapon for close-in fighting has cutting and thrusting edges, plus extreme maneuverability...The handle should be like that of a fencing foil, so the knife can be used for cutting and thrusting in any direction whatsoever without a change in grip...The blade is about six inches in length, is double-edged and tapers to a point."
The "icepick grip" is preferred by knifefighters because the blade isn't used for downward stabs only. when holding the blade you brace the dull side against your forearm and use the edge side for slashing attacks and blocks. because less of the blade is out in the air, you not only have more control over it, but it's harder to disarm. This stance also allows you to twist your wrist and "flick" the blade out with extra force, and still go into the icepick stab on an enemy if there's an opening. Note though, this means that you need a blade that's not made for piercing, like the one you showed at first. That blade should be used in the upward position since it's essentially used to block attacks and do piercing stabs, ideally as assistance to using a sword. Nobody's going to be happy about using a piercing weapon for slashes.
here's food for thought, ever consider the option of using the rest of your body to do the fighting and only using the weapon to land the finishing blow? say, step into the arc of the opponents attack, use empty hand to deflect other guys weapon to the side, body slam into him with your knife in between you (preferably with the pointy end facing his belly) and immediately back out of the attack pulling the knife to the side as you retreat leaving a very deep and profusely bleeding gut wound. takes under 2 seconds and unless the enemy is wearing proper armour the fight should be decided then and there.
lindy you should know that a puukko style knife like that what you started with is not meant for stabbing. (actually i love the puukko and the culture around them so much) they're made by the saami people of the lappland in scandinavia, who carry them from a very young age. the tapered handle is thinner as it nears the blade so that a user wearing thick gloves can get purchase on it and it's generally just comfy. this does mean, however that any poking you do with the tip is like to have your hand slide up and onto the blade. so they don't poke. its a neat little necessity (handle shape) that breeds a totally different use of the tool (lack of pokey)
Aikido knife form (tanto) uses both grips. You're supposed to switch between for different strikes and blocks. Ice pick is mostly used for blocks and slashes you can't perform with stabby grip. Switching is hard - yes. So it's debatable whether you would bother with classic form under stress. But it's a skill you *have* to have to be proficient. Plus Aikido says you're holding it wrong: In ice pick your thumb is supposed to sit over the butt of the handle so you have a stronger grip and more stabbing power. And the forward grip sees the base of your palm over the end of the handle for the same reasons.
Wow, that was pretty cool! I really thought your lyrics were pretty interesting. I don't think I have actually seen a TH-cam video that was scripted as a poem that also passed a nice message at the same time. I do have to say that while you said some interesting points about using a knife in a fight, I would still go for your more normal videos in order to get a more detailed amount of information on a topic. However, I did find that this poetic video was quite entertaining. And it is this entertainment factor that led me to watch the entire video, rather than a desire to learn anything in particular about using a knife. (Although I did end up learning that using a dagger in an ice-pick grip versus a upward thrusting grip can lend itself to be slightly more limiting in your available angels of attack). Thanks so much for this and your other epic videos! Keep up the awesome work!
then agian, there is the body fight part. Maybe the people who hold it the downwards way would simply try to use their bodies (such as kicking, tackling, etc.), and then use the knife only to finish the job by the way, this is probably one of the best videos in this site. 10/10 poem
after extended training by myself (which is in no way professional might i add) with both icepick and normal grip, the only advantage i can see is if the blade is short, you can easily reverse the grip with one hand without much failure rate and if your opponent has seen a patern in your normal grip attack, you could quickly reverse the grip and diversify. i also noticed it is easy to feint a stab to the neck, to then rotate your elbow to stab into the gut while in icepick grip. another is perhaps icepick would be more convenient to bypass a shield or exploit weaknesses in plated armor when the knight could no longer fight but were still alive.
I've heard it said that, in a knife fight, the difference between the winner and the loser is that the loser dies at the scene of the fight and the winner dies in the ambulance on the way to the hospital.
Javier Fauxnom the winner is the faster runner
@@OnlyKaerius and he was lucky.
Pretty much
Sounds like what my drill instructors said
"When two tigers fight, one is certain to be maimed, and one to die." Gichin Funakoshi
Your first poem about stabbing, or your first stab at poetry?
**dances offstage**
wow xD
badum tiss
that's a beautiful comment, I hope you had a good four years.
My liege,I've found your next jester of court!
@@itwasmewasntit2448 *My Beige
- Huh, that rhymed.
- Hey, that rhymed again.
- Is he going to keep doing that?
- Wait, he's been rhyming since the beginning. How did I not notice?
omg it's true
Fuck, now I cant unhear it
I didn't notice untill this comment. Bruh
It took me waaayyy too long to realize this entire video was in verse. Very well done, 15/10.
Took me right until the endslate.
TheRealmDrifter 5/7
A perfect 5/7
Is that describing the poetry style or are you compensating for the East German judge?
Wait, the entire video? I tought only the end.
...Was that whole thing a damn poem?!
+James Ghosten yes 0_0 only got if after reading comments 0_0
+James Ghosten I noticed about half way through and my jaw dropped
+James Ghosten lots of his videos are like this :D
I noticed 13 seconds in, after he said 'not just avoiding some slit in your gown'.
Dont worry i noticed after 3 minutes
When you pick the Bard class in a medieval game
When you multi class as a bard and a rogue
Ah, damnit... I've had a video about the saber grip vs. reverse grip with knives and daggers on my to-do list for a while. When I finally get to it people are going to accuse me of "ripping off" your video. :)
Because, you know... on TH-cam you're never allowed to talk about a topic that someone else has covered in a video before, otherwise you're just "stealing ideas".
***** Just do it, Skal. Your delivery is very different to Lindybeige
because people don't like learning things, clearly we must cherry pick our data based on the "whodunit first" criteria...
...there's nothing wrong with stealing an idea for a topic, but unless you want to be thought of as the lesser man you'll have to do yours poetically as well! :o>
Not if you mention that Lindybeige also did a topic on this. And tell us how much you agree or disagree with him.
Stop ripping off Lindybeige Skall.
It is obvious that only one person can have each opinion/idea first, and that everyone else is a non-talent copy, regardless of whether they are aware of that person or not.
poetry about fucking wrecking someone in a knife fight. I love it
i love the rhymes too
its spelt reking
Lloyd's work here would certainly impress any warrior-poet.
@BBB H
Come in, we live in america haha. Don't at like there aren't people carrying out there that would pull a fun on a attacker with a knife. Grant, running is a very viable solution, and the one I suggest lol.
There are two main ways to hold a knife;
One point up, and one point down.
Now, in a knife fight, the prize is your life;
Not just avoiding some slit in your gown.
So you've got to get it right, this is a fight;
But which is the better way?
Well, perhaps it would shed some light
If we see what the treatises say.
Now, they seem quite clear;
They prefer by far the downward, or ice-pick grip;
True, the other way they don't exactly bar,
But they never show us that flip.
It's of the rondel that they seek to teach us;
It's thin and stabby and long.
But, what sort of techniques have failed to reach us?
Perhaps the choice of the rondel is wrong?
Now I learnt my knife fighting with a knife like this;
It's shorter and fatter and cut-y.
An attacker with this [the rondel] is just taking the piss
Against me with this; he's surely putty!
I learnt through re-enactment and kung fu,
Not late medieval sources,
And I know that complacency will never do,
So I took some HEMA courses.
I went along with an open mind,
And took a wooden thing like this (for safety's sake).
I tried out their moves to see what I could find,
And, boy, the next day I didn't half ache.
I found that my first suspicion proved true:
The ice-pick grip limits your angles.
There really is just one thing you can do,
and I'd like more options when my life dangles
by a thread, I'm *this* close to death,
I can feel my heart's heartbeat drumming;
This could be my last pain-free breath.
With just one opening move, he'll see it coming!
It's a good stab, I'll grant you:
It's hard and downward and deadly,
But one stab is many too few.
Now, you hold it *this* way, you've got a medley!
Try this: hold it 'ice-pick' on the outward side;
You get to here and you're weak, and in pain.
A half-decent force here [the wrist] applied,
And down you go, unlikely to rise again.
It's feeble, and slow, and so easy to block;
An attack from here just spells doom.
I mean, look: you've near enough got me in an arm-lock
And you're not even in the same room!
Now, the treatises do show some attacks
That drop low, and come up like so;
But try that, and I'll be relaxed;
A big move like that is so slow.
You offer your elbow like this to a foe,
One push exposes your back and your head.
So I know you're not going to land that blow;
Before that: forget it, you're dead.
Now, almost everything starts from here [the stab];
So after the block, what next?
Well, assuming you can overcome your fear,
You could try what it says in the text.
Typically you start by grabbing the blade;
It's long, so it serves well as a lever;
Its length acts as a disarming aid;
And it's thin, so it's not much of a cleaver.
But it's often, at least, just a little bit sharp;
So, oh! Mightn't you cut your finger?
Well, the alternative is you start playing the harp,
So just grab it, this is no time to linger.
Now, I'll choose something shorter and sharper,
And I'll grip it my way, and we'll see who's the harper!
And while you go in for some big twist,
I'll slash you - it's quicker - and put a gash in your wrist.
I'll cut through your tendons, under your arm,
And turn your limb into so much slack rope.
I have faith in the speed I do harm.
You dope, to pin on ice-pick grip your hope.
There are other ways, as shown by the likes of Fairbairn Skyes
To stab and slash in a hundred strikes!
So come our dagger duel, I'll hold it my way.
You hold it yours, and we'll see who carries the day
Having taken pause to reflect...
Maybe I wouldn't.
Because that's just what you'd expect.
Good grief! Now that, I didn't expect. When I wrote it down, I spelled the raspberry before "forget it - you're dead!" thus: "thththththp!" I fluffed the line about heart beats. It should be "heart beat's hard drumming". I also paraphrased a lot and added 'err' a lot and 'you know", partly as I struggled to recall the next line, but also to make it seem more conversational.
Lindybeige Congratulations on the poetry aspect of the video.
As for the topic it´s very simple: the ice pick grip was used against foes with some type of armor because against armor cut strikes are meaningless with such a small weapon and you need more power in your stabbing strikes or in case of a backup surprise move because it´s easier and quicker to draw your dagger in a ice pick fashion (at this point reach it´s not an issue because in a backup surprise move your opponent is already close to you) it was used primarily by knights to finish off other knights when they were at close range aiming the dagger at the armor gaps or at places where the armor was lighter. The other type of grip is best when your fighting enemies without armor and you have time to draw your dagger before the fight begins because it gives you, like you said in the video, more options and more reach.
That is near genius on the part of Lloyd. It seems here that the pen is equally as mighty as the sword.....
***** except all the ones that show ice pick being used in armour...
The issue is between sudden need after primary weapons have failed or are unavailable and duelling when one has time to prepare and approach an opponent from out of distance
***** and I didn't say that you did, I was pointing out that , while you said that most sources are for un-armoured fighting, I was just pointing out that there are plenty of sources for armoured use too, as you say the under hand grip is the most commonly seen in medieval European use. Also master lik Fiore, state whether a action is good for armoured or unarmured or both. With illustration in MS and fechtbuch though as in them we also see unarmoured half swording and poll axe, which could lead us to believe that these were to be used out of armour too...
The main reason rondel daggers are meant to be used in the ice pick grip is because they were meant for use against armored opponents. You have to make it into the openings, and then push through padding and possible chain mail. It takes the power afforded by the ice pick grip to do that well.
@jenns - miss the "point"?
Rondel daggers were popular with "civilians" too. I assume if a knife fight ensued they would draw their rondel daggers.
You recited that so convincingly I had no idea what was happening until the end, watching this for a second time is a whole new experience. Crazy.
Somehow, I didn't even notice the rhyme until about the last 30 seconds of the video.
+Gromnok Windwaker
I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one.
I didn't noticed it until the "reflect/expect" rhyme.
+Gromnok Windwaker Fuck, I didn't even notice till the last 30 seconds of the video.
I didn't notice until I watched the follow up video :O
everyone here had the same experience
"I can feel my hearts-heartbeat drumming" Did lindy just accidentally admit he's a timelord ?
Or did I say "heart's heartbeat drumming"?
@@lindybeige Or "hearts' heartbeat drumming"? Ah-haa-a.
According to the legend of the Daleks, the Doctor would appear in many faces. He is always a threat which ever clothes he gets. There may be a leather jacket or a piece of tweed, but never in beige he has been seen. But then it may be true Lindy Beige is his hidden name, used to rest from Daleks, Cybmen and rest with Amy's child, his wife, the ever soo lovely River, always just a Song in his mind.
I've come back to this multiple times. I love it really, not just because it actually ryhmes. This is my favourite video of yours. It makes everything I hear said a short period afterwards sound really weird of course. The point is that it's both interresting and fun, lindybeige, well done.
The challenge's accepted
As you have expected
You fight point up - the dagger's mine!
To see what style is going to shine
With one addition, my mate:
We are covered in ... full plate.
Well played
Just realized its in verse. God damn your like Skallagrim and Yhatsee Crosshaw in one man
Do not dare disrespect our lord and saviour Yahtzee Croshaw by misspelling his name, scurvy knave! Now, chant with me:
Pillock! Pillock! Pillock!
Sara Vanau
Pillock! Pillock! Pillock! *Bows down to a 50 ft statue of a cock as I chant more*
I have to do this *you're
*****
My god I'm stupid :(
Dash Costello
it's fine, you're not the only one
I was always under the impression the Rondel Dagger was made specifically to deal with armored fighters, presumably you also wearing armor. I mean, personally, I would imagine a swift slash would be useless against a chain mail or anything heavier like plate mail. Wheras, you need the extra power of the ice pick grip to deal with armors.
For futher future reference:
*ONLY CHAIN MAIL IS A THING AND THAT'S JUST CALLED MAIL!*
*****
I always thought it referred to plate and mail, as in the two of them at the same time. And humans being lazy sods just dropped the and over time.
Kaskade173 Well, ok:
A) No
B) Pretty much never happened anyway.
George Perakis ***** Well, to be fair, you can get _Plaited_ Mail, which is only two letters out :P
George Perakis Presuming, of course, that language is a stale and static and not a living, changing thing that can change as time goes...
"Now i'll pick something shorter and sharper, and i'll grip it my way and we'll see who's the harper" ~ Lindybeige 2015
But the Rondel is an anti-armor dagger used mainly for stabbing, and the icepick-grip might be the ideal type of grip to get enough power to do some damage against an armored foe? For slashing type daggers it would be another story altogether though
_But Rondel is a dagger used for stabbing,_
_the icepick-grip might be ideal for damaging_
_even the armored foe? For slashing type daggers,_
_it would be another story altogether._
RainbowDevourer You can't stab through steel. It wont happen. You can go for the visor or unplated joints, but thats where you need precision more than force.
The treatises write of using it in unarmoured fights, and often show unarmoured men.
Darius der Rote Your forgetting that most joints will have mail. Also stabbing tend to get through mail and padding better.
Lindybeige could it be for trainig? The rondel locks like an finish him of becuse i lies on the ground try stab him whre the armor is weak weapon.
A wild Dr. Seuss appeared. That just threw me off really badly for a minute or two. XD
That feel when you finally realize he's been rhyming the whole time.
I had to go back in the video like "has that motherfucker been....oh yup...yup YUP YAP! HE'S RHYMIN!" Goddammit Lindybeige that was well played.
last 30 seconds I realised the rhymes, watched again and realised the whole video was in verse. Incredible!
only just realized this was all rhyming....now I have to watch the whole thing again......very genius.....I had wondered if such a thing was possible, prose in conversation, would it be imperceptible? pulled it of for a good 4 minutes......a mild criticism...fell into a bit more obvious rhythm towards the end.....going back again to check for iambic....
is not in iambic pentameter.....Lindy! your next challenge!
that was awesome. !!! took me a while to realise that it was in verse.
Whhhatttt?
Didn't realise it was a poem until the end lol.
It's insane how well he can speak in pre-written verse, yet make it seem like he's just ad-libbing and talking about whatever dagger information comes into mind. Not just his way of speaking but his mannerisms too. So I don't feel *too* stupid not realizing this was a poem until it was almost over. Lindybeige is just excellent at words. (if you haven't seen his video for his award-winning poem "an incomplete life" you should go watch it now.)
You just took it to a whole another level, I'm really impressed. It took me a minute and a quarter to figure out it rhymed at all, so it sounded really natural as well. Looking forward to more similar videos.
Strangely enough, your recitation of the poem comes across so casual that during the entire first viewing I didn't even realize it rhymed. Congratulations to that!
i did not realize until 2/3 through this was a poem
Now that I know that the video was in Rhyme, I can't believe I didn't hear it the first time.
What's with the British and their penchant to rhyme? It annoys me so much, it should be a crime! Please pass the lyrics in your next diatribe, lest my hand be forced and I'll unsubscribe!
Please stay your hand, show some sobriety,
I did this just for variety.
A New Year surprise - an attempt at a treat,
But with you, I surmise, one that led to defeat.
Others may rhyme, but not about spears,
And not all of the time, to please others' ears.
I could be convinced, in a way,
To let go of my outrage and stay
Just think up a script
Made of limmericks
And use it posthaste, if you may.
"You've near enough got me in an arm lock and we're not even in the same room!" That was so hilarious man, thanks for the laugh. I just discovered your videos and I can't get enough of them!
Also, the whole video is one big @ss poem
The masters of old have taught us
to heed the directions they brought us.
Now you may think yourself a clever trout
by wildly slashing and heaving all about.
But as Liechtenauer says and patiently shows,
you will not find truth with such florid blows.
So keep your Fairbairn and your Seagal
I’ll stick with Talhoffer and Paulus Kal.
I didn't even notice it was a poem until the end!
A test cutting video by Skallagrim brought me to this conclusion: Even a simple cloth can reduce the effectiveness of glancing strikes by a considerable margin. Now, think of the kind of clothing the people with rondel daggers wore; Wasn't it considerably thicker and with more layers than modern clothing? The poofy arms alone speak volumes to that I think, though I would like an experts opinion or some data on the matter ere I draw a final conclusion. I wonder if they traded off the versatility of the sword-grip for the stabbing power needed to get through thick clothing.
Huh, the way you recited this was so convincing that i thought it was one of your regular videos, i didn't realise it was in verse until i watched your clarifying video. Very impressive Lindy!
This is Thrand! I will do a reply video as well with actual combat and testing if any are interested. I might wait until Skallagrim puts his out so can address both Skall and Lloyd. This is a subject I know very much about and would love to do a comparison video of the grips :D
Our reply video is out! Dagger fighting Reply to Lindybeige or Lloyd
th-cam.com/video/iQYgAS_hGZM/w-d-xo.html
Some did not understand our points or testing results properly so made an Explanation video to our testing reply :D
Dagger fighting Reply to Lindybeige or Lloyd Explanation
th-cam.com/video/X8pC1sExhw4/w-d-xo.html
I've seen the sword grip also referred to as the Saber grip. And while so many people are obsessing about the grip they conpletely ignore the one of the most important aspects of dagger/knife fighting: Footwork.
Thanks for another outstanding video.
ah, here's a subject i can speak on with a little authority. i've had three altercations with people with knives (ignoring the time when i had a knife, and it was bigger, and they left me alone) and i've been stabbed twice. naturally, i spent a lot of time since then learning more about knives. the interesting thing is that only one of these people came at me with the 'ice-pick' grip, as you describe it, and that was the time where i, unarmed, was able to kick the blue blazes out of them before they managed to land a hit. the two times that they came at me with a knife held like a sword, i did get stabbed, in more or less the same spot, perhaps a flaw in my combat style.
out of pride, i should like to add that neither time would i say i 'lost' these altercations, always a case of you should see the other guy.
What's the spot that you got stabbed at?
***** for a start, it puts a shock of adrenaline through you which really messes with you. i couldn't tell if the knife was burning hot, or freezing cold but it felt like on of the two. i could also feel the knife pressing my skin in until the point where the tip broke into the skin, and then i could just feel each individual cell tearing. very unpleasant.
S2MH left side of my torso, just below the ribcage. why do you ask?
If you are telling the truth do you know how much damage could have been done to you? That area of the body contains the stomach, spleen, the left lung the splenic artery and the phrenic artery. Stabbing any of those is fatal without urgent medical attention.
TimenyCricket because my reaction to a knife-wound should be 'oh, i don't need to go to the hospital for this...' but sarcasm aside, what sane person does not seek medical attention in that scenario?
Your delivery is so natural that the poetic verse is going to be lost to many viewers. Really quite excellent.
The "ice pick" grip works well with karate training. It encourages elbow strikes, not "ice picking." I assure you it is very effective in the hands of a trained martial artist. ("Ice picking" is the worst thing you can do. It is slow and easily blocked.) A sharp blade can eviscerate several arteries in a second.
Yet for someone trained in medieval weapons, the fencing grip is superior. There are dozens of good strikes, many of them fight ending.
In the end, training is the big determiner. Skill with whichever style beats a lack of skill.
If two people with "equal" skill in their styles fought, I would expect them to kill each other within 5 seconds. Neither style blocks the other well.
BTW, I've spared against both.
I think the main point of the overhead stab is how quickly it is executed from the draw. The dagger was usually worn at the right hip, and the quick draw and downward stab is easily done from that position. I generally emphasize that this is more combat of immediacy, and not a dueling style. You see in various texts the underhanded stab used almost as frequently. Another point worth mentioning is how difficult it can be to cut through sturdy cloth, especially something with layers or padded. Just a few points to consider.
the whole video was a poem, absolutely astonishing.
I love this poem. It at first appears to be one of your informational videos, but then the rhythm becomes noticeable. Clever.
1:45 hearts... TIME LORD
Heart's* possessive
So very good lesson. I had a friend who ran with Portuguese knife fighting gangs for a bit. He was swearing by ice pick and and I showed him some other techniques that really opened him up to the possibility of forward grip. Also easier to throw from forward.
did he just fucking drop a dagger fight poem
Wow. As an completely oblivious person i did not so much as blink twice at this video. Only when i watched the followup did i hear the entire video is in verse. I came back to watch it, and now it's so obvious I can't tune it out 😂😂 well done lindybeige, well done 👍🏻👍🏻
I thought i had watched all of your videos, but this one....blew me away! Big fan! =D
The blade down 'ice pick grip' has its advantages as well. Although you have to be closer (distance!), an 'ice pick grip' inside stab (rather than your demonstrated outward stab) has MORE power. The grip is also better suited for grappling & hooking.
Bottom line: each grip has its pros & cons. One should train in both grips & be prepared to use either, depending on what the situation is.
I carry a knife everyday as a tool. I've done so for the past thirty-eight years. The ice-pick grip has always struck me as monumentally silly.
Depends on the person and purpose of the knife. The reverse is most used by military because it's the usually the fastest deployment from their vest. Also depends on the laws like for me I legally can carry a fixed blade with a good reason. Self defense apparently isn't a valid reason. Which is bs. So I got a flick one that will always open up in the forward grip.
Also depends on if you get ambushed our if you know you will have to use your knife. So reverse could be a quick way to draw. While forward is the preferred choice for heading into a fight.
Lindybeige is basically a living Dungeons and Dragons human bard. He's good with his wording and humour, yet knows how to use practically any weapon better than a skilled knight or warrior could. He'd be fun at the book and die. He could be his own army back six centuries ago.
Just bring a Pommel.
Many years ago I was telling a story to a new person in the presence of an old friend who, like me, is a poet.
I found myself falling into iambic pentameter quite by accident. It was kinda cool. My friend noticed, and grinned and nodded to encourage me.
I lost it completely.
Well done. I just might steal this.
I have always assumed you'd hold ice-pick-like if you had a more defensive or reactionary mindset. Think of how a boxer uses his forearms to protect himself against an aggressive opponent. Now adopt this posture but put a knife in your hand, obviously you'd want it pointed at them.
This posture keeps your forearm out at all times ready to deflect or push aside your opponent's arm, or their whole body if they try to grapple. After doing so, the blade is right there angled for a plunge into the torso, or neck after a higher parry. Holding it normally all you can do is awkwardly slash after a deflection.
The Forearm, of course is the best part of your body for getting cut, or taking any sort of abuse, especially if you've got some padding or leather on it. Again, this is why boxers fight the way they do. I was always taught to use the top of the forearm to protect yourself from someone with a blade in any case. I was under the impression this was pretty fundamental for self-defense.
Generally, you want to be keeping your forearm between you and their blade at all times, and when they extend themselves too much, you give them a quick snap for a deadly stab. Try it out, it actually feels very natural. As you said, there is much wider use of a blade held regularly, and that's true, but your core is weak and your movements broad. If I am tucked in like this sure I may take a few superficial slashes, but once I'm inside your attack, which is a position you've help put me in, my knife will be buried to the handle, and you won't be walking away from that.
Having practiced knife fighting myself, I say the face down grip is better. With it you can block incoming blows using the flat of the knife, allowing your arm to act like a spring and take most of the force out of their strike. It also allows the use of upwards and sideways slashing motions, both of which are great for getting under the arms, armpits, and across the neck. Lastly, I'd feel like in classical warfare that using a downward grip with a buckler would be more advantageous in terms of speed, where you could block with the buckler and bring the knife out behind or beneath it it to go for their hands holding the sword, axe, or mace.
OH MY GOD THIS IS A POEM THIS SHT IS GENIOUS!
Very well done. I didn't become suspicious of your use of verse until about four minutes in. I didn't know for certain it was all in verse until you finished saying "I do you harm."
Then I re-watched the whole video.
Well done indeed, Lindybeige.
Have you looked at Native American or FMA to see the ice pick grip done? There's more ways than you showed to utilize that grip. The Karamit is primarily used in that reverse grip and its very effective. Just check things out past kung fu which is not a spectacular way of learning knife fighting IMO and check out those whose culture revolves around it.
Get 2 practice karambits and give one to some random guy who doesn't train and tell him to hold it tip up then spar him with yours tip down. Post the results of you intentionally giving up range, power, and the ability to slash from left to right for my amusement plz.
+Mike Reis Good point. Also check modern special force training.
My understanding is icepick grip generate more power, and has more defensive moves (think to use dagger to block another dagger/sword). However, doesn't matter how you get around it, this position does limit your attack movement. It also limit your attack range, so fighting style with icepick grip is always very very close to each other.
The other way, I think it is called sabre grip, offers a great range of attack options, and it has reach advantages. The problem with it is there is very little defensive moves you can do.
Which grip to use, is depending on which one you are trained with, and whether you focus on attack, or more defensive position in mind.
I'm practically untrained in both, but if my life depends on it, I do sabre grip, and go offensive option.
+GuitarsRockForever That's a very well done comment! I agree with the lack of range since the blade is closer to you, but its advantage is easily concealed and you can use the weapon to manipulate limbs of your enemy to open them up. And since if you're using a knife you are already in close quarters where its even an option so having it concealed is a bonus since a knife should be felt not seen.
There is also the hammer grip as well as the saber grip and there are a few ways to hold a knife more than just two, and it does come down to what you're comfortable with. Using a front grip is something many people do and it does give range and with a flow and untrained person can use that grip better than a reverse grip.
I've worked with SF people in the past and I work with tactical knife applications a lot! And not many of them come from kung fu inspiration. The more effective stuff you'll find embedded in cultures that utilize knives more.
Mike Reis Again, I'm not expert, I only based my opinion on what I've seen, with almost no personal experience. Hammer grip, IMO is the weakest, most limited grip you can do with a dagger. I'm also thinking from defensive perspective, defending attacker holding dagger in icepick grip, you need to mostly focus on his/her elbow. If you can control elbow, you are safe from the blade. IMO, that limits what you can do to attack. It is not saying icepick grip is no good, but just saying it has its disadvantages. sabre grip is harder to defend against from what I know. I think special force people use both grip depending on what they need at time.
This is why you should do as much training as possible. I'm doing a book review on a 4 vol. set of tactical knife combat, and will leave a link for it. It would give you an education that would help you understand different things about knife fighting.
Had to thumb's up when you said grab the blade as a defence as this ties in so much with my own experience. I was stabbed multiple times through the chest and stomach, last October by a ten inch kitchen knife. I survived, half through luck and half by grabbing the blade and wrestling the guy to the ground. We were next to an armchair and I thrust the blade deep into the cushion and his hands slipped off from the blood. Then I had the knife.
I'm not trained, I was very lucky. But one thing I often think of since is that we all wonder how we would cope in that situation and I am so glad I did not succumb to fear.
Took me a while to realize that he's rhyming.
This might be my favorite Lindy vid, who else supplies such a quality combo of rhyme and deadly instruction
try the karambit... made for "point down" grip
I am no expert in knife fighting but i was talking it over and looking through the options and i found that the point down technique is better because at least in a modern day setting weapons are short. Most people hold their weapon in the right hand so you can try to grab their wrist with your left hand and put your knife to their throat. If they try to bring up their left arm to grab your right arm you can very easily stab their right arm with the knife point down and move it back up to the throat again, with the point down.
All good buts but I have to ask. How many takes did it take you to get this in the can?
Bizarrely, this is take one. I did one more complete take (with a few fluffed partial takes before it) but ended up using the first. I liked its more conversational feel. The delivery was closer to my normal prose tone, which I thought was unusual. I keep saying things like 'you know' and 'err', which makes the fact that it is a poem weirder.
Lindybeige i feel like that ice pick grip would be good for finishing someone off or for a assassin killing someone from behind
It's good that you mentioned Fairbairn-Sykes, the Commando style of dagger fighting always recommended the standard grip over the ice pick, for many of these same reasons. Ice pick might be handy if you're stabbing an unaware unarmed person but you can do just as much damage and be more discrete at the same time holding the dagger lower down and driving it upwards.
I din't notice it's all a poem till the very end. Thought you're manner of speaking was rather different in this one.
"the Swiss army knife in my hand. Know this shit corny, but it can end the life of ya' fam" -Sean Price, RIP... stabbing poetry has in fact been a thing for quite a while but I like this new approach... its significantly more... beige.
You make a good case about holding a knife;
but whatever you think, you'll be dead in a fight.
The way Lindybeige holds his knife;
is for cutting steak and not for fight.
You can't scrap worth a crap;
and my ice pick grip will give you a smack.
I like your style and I like your poem;
but, at the end of the day.... just stay home.
slaanghoul looks like we gotta tough guy over heeere
Just watched another of your videos where you mentioned this one was actually a poem. I apologize I'd not noticed this on the first viewing. I have to confess that now with a bit more attention you've made it painfully obvious and I applaud your talent in execution. Thank you for the entertainment!
This is my favorite video
mine too. i wouldnt want to start a fight with him haha
I would say that the icepick grip makes the most sense if you are mostly grabling and use the dagger as a finisher. In medieval times there was maybe an advantage in the fact that the ice pick grip forces you to get close fast, if you have to use your dagger against a sword or polearm getting close would be your best option.
I like poems. poems make me smile. 😆
First sorry for my poor english, i would say that i just discoverd your channel and i really enjoy your videos, i'm a swiss student studiing medieval history, i dont know if i will be read but i've got a different view of the question so i will try to explain my point... But i need to underline that you do a fantastic job on the text of this video! Congratulations, i love it!
The fact that the representation of dagger is always shown in a "pickaxe grip" is to link with the very natur of the dagger, it's a weapon for cowards, for murdering and durty stuffs in the shadows. With the pickaxe grip, you can dissimulate it easly in your sleeve and shown your blade at the very last moment. Even during a fight, it's possible to hide the blade behind your arm in the way that your opponent can't predicte whitch way you will slice (from right to left or left to right).
I agree that some of the representation/texts in the Fighting books of the end of Medieval age and of the Modern Ages speak about dueling with daggers in pickaxe position and i think that in this very unique composition (two people holding both a knife and dueling, you will have some conditions to fill to have that), it's a bit strange and unefficient... I feel like the knife combat is more about exchanging some slice until one didnt got enough blood (strange sentence, sorry again for my english) and energie to counter the final hit. In this way, i will reuse my first argument : You can keep your distance, hide the way you will hit and make a slice and going back to your safe distance, etc till the last hit... Like your conclusion said it, the pickaxe grip is much more sneaky, what an appropriate way to use a coward weapon (say me if you agree on the cowardness componant of the dagger), that's why this representation is so much shownd, it accentuate the total contradiction with the vertues of chivalry in use in this time.
I would last say that i totally follow you on the stigmatisation of french history/people/... it make me laugh a lot and it's not because i share my langage with this people that i will support their pretentious historiography. I cant wait to go see your video about Long Messer but it will be for tonight: now, back to studies.
Now I'm really embarrassed. It took more than one watching to learn that this was rhyming.
This being in verse made it even more enjoyable. You gave it depth. Well done.
You have been missed XD
Agreed mate.
Firstly, loved the verse. Re-watched the video with tremendous mirth.
Secondly, the ice-pick grip does have some merit.
You have a hefty downward stab.
You can trap the opponents arm with the back of the blade.
You can "punch" with the blade at the opponents wrist if they were to stab or slash from the opposite side, or straight-on at their face.
You can also punch your opponent in an effort to daze them. :)
I'll grant that it may be less effective than the usual grip, but not as ineffective as most might think.
Nice poem...very clever.
informative and thought provacive as usual. love the rhythm and rhyme. very entertaining keep it up lindy
Holy cow... Saw the entire video twice and only now realise that it's like one big poem with all the rhymes and such.
Really, really nice job there.
Just for note, dropping low and striking isn't actually slow. To add, you may drop out of the sight of your opponent. (I've found it useful in actual street fights for delivering a blow.) You can drop and step forward in the same movement shortening the movement into a single motion making it quite quick.
You are by far one of the best channels on TH-cam
What's astonishing sir, is not the knowledge you display
Nor the assertions you make
Rather it's the hugely impressive fact that
You made this video in one take
There are more options to the icepick grip and it is actually very useful if you put sufficient training into it (as with anything else).
Of course different people favor different techs. What is the best for you may not be the bet for me and vice versa.
But the main issue IMO is to not get tunnel vision but instead recognize the potential and the limitations of whatever material youre working with.
There is no perfect move. All techniques and strategies have their strengths as well as their weaknesses.
In pictorial references, the dagger is held pointing down. The reason for such a limited weapon seems to be to stab the body through exposed parts of armor: neck and testicles, the latter probably giving the name to some medieval daggers "testicular", as well as the shape of their guards. Note too that although dagger fighting is found illustrated (eg. in the Wallerstein codex), it's more often than not seen sheathed at the waist as a secondary weapon. The other purpose for a dagger would be to provide a killing blow, giving it the name "misericordia" ("mercy").
While I don't agree with the content, and the core idea, I rain applause at the poetic delivery. Well done, sir!
Hi Lloyd. I just got to watching this one. Have you discussed this topic with any special forces people? When I was a student (in the 70's) one of the staff was an ex WW2 commando. He taught a grip that has the haft diagonally across the palm, so the blade could point in line with the forearm. He demonstrated how much harder it was to break this grip also. Nice poem, up there with the Skalds.
my favorite lindybeige video no doubt
Extremely impressive writing and delivery! A five minute reading done cleanly in one take. I'm surprised you don't prefer the reverse grip coming from a kung fu background. I learned on double daggers and the reverse grip become automatic.
I learned many years ago that the human body has evolved to protect vital organs from downward strikes ie lion claw. Hence the shape of our rib cage. This makes reverse grip limited in effect. In a knife fight repetitive frenzied upward strikes to the abdomen as shown in prison films provide the best chance of hitting vital organs thus minimising dying. In a knife fight you will get cut and stabbed so you have to make sure you stab more effective and often. Oh and don't forget to kick, punch, headbutt, knee, elbow and bite because knife fight is messy and the only way to minimise your own injury is to finish it quickly.
From 'Kill or be Killed" (published 1943) by Maj. Rex Applegate, a student of Fairbairn and Sykes: "The ideal weapon for close-in fighting has cutting and thrusting edges, plus extreme maneuverability...The handle should be like that of a fencing foil, so the knife can be used for cutting and thrusting in any direction whatsoever without a change in grip...The blade is about six inches in length, is double-edged and tapers to a point."
The "icepick grip" is preferred by knifefighters because the blade isn't used for downward stabs only. when holding the blade you brace the dull side against your forearm and use the edge side for slashing attacks and blocks. because less of the blade is out in the air, you not only have more control over it, but it's harder to disarm. This stance also allows you to twist your wrist and "flick" the blade out with extra force, and still go into the icepick stab on an enemy if there's an opening.
Note though, this means that you need a blade that's not made for piercing, like the one you showed at first. That blade should be used in the upward position since it's essentially used to block attacks and do piercing stabs, ideally as assistance to using a sword. Nobody's going to be happy about using a piercing weapon for slashes.
here's food for thought, ever consider the option of using the rest of your body to do the fighting and only using the weapon to land the finishing blow? say, step into the arc of the opponents attack, use empty hand to deflect other guys weapon to the side, body slam into him with your knife in between you (preferably with the pointy end facing his belly) and immediately back out of the attack pulling the knife to the side as you retreat leaving a very deep and profusely bleeding gut wound. takes under 2 seconds and unless the enemy is wearing proper armour the fight should be decided then and there.
lindy you should know that a puukko style knife like that what you started with is not meant for stabbing. (actually i love the puukko and the culture around them so much)
they're made by the saami people of the lappland in scandinavia, who carry them from a very young age. the tapered handle is thinner as it nears the blade so that a user wearing thick gloves can get purchase on it and it's generally just comfy. this does mean, however that any poking you do with the tip is like to have your hand slide up and onto the blade. so they don't poke. its a neat little necessity (handle shape) that breeds a totally different use of the tool (lack of pokey)
Aikido knife form (tanto) uses both grips. You're supposed to switch between for different strikes and blocks. Ice pick is mostly used for blocks and slashes you can't perform with stabby grip. Switching is hard - yes. So it's debatable whether you would bother with classic form under stress. But it's a skill you *have* to have to be proficient.
Plus Aikido says you're holding it wrong: In ice pick your thumb is supposed to sit over the butt of the handle so you have a stronger grip and more stabbing power. And the forward grip sees the base of your palm over the end of the handle for the same reasons.
Wow, that was pretty cool! I really thought your lyrics were pretty interesting. I don't think I have actually seen a TH-cam video that was scripted as a poem that also passed a nice message at the same time.
I do have to say that while you said some interesting points about using a knife in a fight, I would still go for your more normal videos in order to get a more detailed amount of information on a topic. However, I did find that this poetic video was quite entertaining. And it is this entertainment factor that led me to watch the entire video, rather than a desire to learn anything in particular about using a knife. (Although I did end up learning that using a dagger in an ice-pick grip versus a upward thrusting grip can lend itself to be slightly more limiting in your available angels of attack).
Thanks so much for this and your other epic videos! Keep up the awesome work!
Lindy so articulate and melodic on his normal speaking no one realized he was spitting bars
then agian, there is the body fight part. Maybe the people who hold it the downwards way would simply try to use their bodies (such as kicking, tackling, etc.), and then use the knife only to finish the job
by the way, this is probably one of the best videos in this site. 10/10 poem
after extended training by myself (which is in no way professional might i add) with both icepick and normal grip, the only advantage i can see is if the blade is short, you can easily reverse the grip with one hand without much failure rate and if your opponent has seen a patern in your normal grip attack, you could quickly reverse the grip and diversify.
i also noticed it is easy to feint a stab to the neck, to then rotate your elbow to stab into the gut while in icepick grip.
another is perhaps icepick would be more convenient to bypass a shield or exploit weaknesses in plated armor when the knight could no longer fight but were still alive.