i think it's worth raising the point of slider's strength in beginner/low level play as well. it's there where the explosion radius buff becomes a problem as well as the paint, particularly when the 70 damage radius is way bigger than the visual suggests. in many ways that kind of buff is like what it would be like to buff clash blaster radius or something.
I really like the idea of making "Ok Let's Talk About ___" a series you do here! And I do think it would be worth it to talk about gear freedom and how that impacts weapon build variety and flexibility. You mentioned the amount of SPU slider weapons run and that limiting builds, and I also think of Range having few viable builds to limit main weapon weaknesses or Heavy Edit being torn between run speed as a splatling and special charge/power as a cooler weapon. Idk I'd like to hear if you have things to say about that.
I feel like it’d be best if the special power up exclusively increased the damage radius and not the paint radius. Or the invincibility frames you get after the slider explodes.
My idea is to rework the special by drastically reducing the OHKO radius of the explosion (70 damage radius stays the same), and make it paint like Splashdown. (Instead of fully painting the area, there will be gaps in the paint, making its overall paint output and ability to cap a zone much weaker.) However, to compensate for the reduced paint and kill power, it will now have zero endlag, and when the user pops out of the slider, they will gain a shield that functions exactly like S2 Ink Armor. This woule change Reefslider from a big, kamikaze explosion that has a huge OHKO radius and endlag, and make it play completely different. Now its best use would be as an approach option. You use it to force your way in with invincibility, blow up and weaken opponents with the 70 damage explosion and then pop out with an armor and zero endlag, ready to fight.
Reefslider is, in my opinion, the special with the most wasted potential in the series (yes, stingray comes 2nd). I feel like Slider could have been a good rework/mix of Kraken and S2 Bubbler. I mean I would love to ride an inflatable Master mega (shivers shark) and swim around the map eating up enemies. But we got splashdown but on the z axis
Nah, splashdown is #1 in my opinion. Stingray doesn't even make the list, it was horrifically designed from the start- there was no way to make that special fun.
A good potential nerf here would be to decrease the potency of SPU for slider. This would allow the baseline slider to still be unaffected, allowing for teams to still cap zone as long as something else is painting with the slider instead of only the slider being the one to cap, while also making it so that you need more SPU to get the same amount of paint as before, potentially making it so that SPU isn’t worth it all together for slider other than maybe a sub or two of it. Iirc they did the reverse of this for wail a little bit ago, making SPU more potent, so there is a precedent for this.
Maybe at top level, but I personally don't find it annoying enough to restrict. Plus it promotes great team coordination and is honestly one of the most fun specials to play around in zones, if people were discouraged from running it, even with nerfs to other options something like strikes is safer and on easier weapons, which does matter at low-mid level.
i am so fucking mad about how they did this special dirty and turned it into a zones cheeser instead of an actual entry special that creates moments where weapons can pop off
I will say that I don't think current vac can really be a problem in RM, because it doesn't offer much in defending pushes compared to other pushing specials like Kraken. It's primarily an offensive tool that can help diversify comp styles by not being good on both offense and defense. I think if vac got a buff like "can switch to shot mode whenever" it could then become a potential problem in RM if it was too good.
If we are banning Reefslider cheese, we should also ban Tristrike cheese, Bubble cheese, Trizooka cheese and especially ESPECIALLY Cooler cheese as well. Cooler is genuinely on the level of Splat1 QRSJ, if not worse because while Cooler vs no Cooler still boils down to zombies vs no zombies, Cooler vs Cooler boils down to who can break the other team's Cooler cycle, instead of just relentless but even meatgrinder of two-sided QRSJ.
One thing I’m wondering with you mentioning needing to ban special charge up on Tristrike weapons is, what if we just banned special charge up on shooters? Would that open up the short range role to other classes, or would it just send us into 52 gal meta or some other dominant weapon? (I guess it would basically remove Zap and cooler diversity, but I don’t think Zap is being picked that much now anyway)
as a former tetra player i wholeheartedly agree this special is kind of lame and gets way worse as you climb up the ladder. really feel sometimes (not always) like you have an instant throw button rather than a functional special
One thing that comes to mind when you mention that just because reef cheese is only decent, that doesn't mean it's healthy for the game, is something from the yugioh community. Without going into too much detail, we've said that just because something has an answer, that doesn't mean that it's healthy for the game. I also want to say that we've also said "just draw the out" which is the equivalent or saying "just don't let it happen" Not 100% certain why I brought this up, but I feel like there's something to be learned from how our community handles these things.
@xvstar_ Undertow Spillway zones are pretty small and can be easily be covered by reef slider cheese. Only for certain maps not all of them. All the opponent have to do is farm reef slider or have two players with reef slider and easily cover both zones.
A potential idea for fixing insta-cap cheese (not just for Reefslider but in general) that I don’t see talked about often would be adjusting the game mode itself. I feel like it would be more than reasonable to make it so that you have to hold the zone for a few seconds in order to apply penalty and start scoring. We’ve already seen a similar change between Splatoon 2 and 3 with Rainmaker checkpoints, so it could be reasonable. (Unfortunately, I don’t think Zones cheese as a big enough issue for Nintendo to take notice like they did for breakaway 30-second Rainmaker games.)
Me when someone slides an inflatable shark into pool of filled with melted cheese:
Melted cheese 😂
I Like my cheese dri-
@@ArmourdreamOrNot GET OUT!!!
i think it's worth raising the point of slider's strength in beginner/low level play as well. it's there where the explosion radius buff becomes a problem as well as the paint, particularly when the 70 damage radius is way bigger than the visual suggests. in many ways that kind of buff is like what it would be like to buff clash blaster radius or something.
i do in fact hate how often the hitbox size changes for most things in this game aren't visually reflected
food critics visiting france:
I really like the idea of making "Ok Let's Talk About ___" a series you do here! And I do think it would be worth it to talk about gear freedom and how that impacts weapon build variety and flexibility. You mentioned the amount of SPU slider weapons run and that limiting builds, and I also think of Range having few viable builds to limit main weapon weaknesses or Heavy Edit being torn between run speed as a splatling and special charge/power as a cooler weapon. Idk I'd like to hear if you have things to say about that.
I feel like it’d be best if the special power up exclusively increased the damage radius and not the paint radius.
Or the invincibility frames you get after the slider explodes.
Omc yes
my idea was to increase the speed/distance of the slide, without changing the paint or damage or i-frames
imo reduce i-frames across the board (as a buff) and SPU affects damage radius
@@unconcernedsalad2 i don't think reducing the amount of i-frames will help (unless you mean endlag/startlag)
increasing i-frames is a horrible idea but i agree with the first bit
My idea is to rework the special by drastically reducing the OHKO radius of the explosion (70 damage radius stays the same), and make it paint like Splashdown. (Instead of fully painting the area, there will be gaps in the paint, making its overall paint output and ability to cap a zone much weaker.)
However, to compensate for the reduced paint and kill power, it will now have zero endlag, and when the user pops out of the slider, they will gain a shield that functions exactly like S2 Ink Armor.
This woule change Reefslider from a big, kamikaze explosion that has a huge OHKO radius and endlag, and make it play completely different.
Now its best use would be as an approach option. You use it to force your way in with invincibility, blow up and weaken opponents with the 70 damage explosion and then pop out with an armor and zero endlag, ready to fight.
chara not beating the reef bias allegations with this one
Reefslider is, in my opinion, the special with the most wasted potential in the series (yes, stingray comes 2nd).
I feel like Slider could have been a good rework/mix of Kraken and S2 Bubbler.
I mean I would love to ride an inflatable Master mega (shivers shark) and swim around the map eating up enemies.
But we got splashdown but on the z axis
S2 Bubbler? Bubble blower?
@@jjQlLlLqi think they might mean baller?
Nah, splashdown is #1 in my opinion.
Stingray doesn't even make the list, it was horrifically designed from the start- there was no way to make that special fun.
A good potential nerf here would be to decrease the potency of SPU for slider. This would allow the baseline slider to still be unaffected, allowing for teams to still cap zone as long as something else is painting with the slider instead of only the slider being the one to cap, while also making it so that you need more SPU to get the same amount of paint as before, potentially making it so that SPU isn’t worth it all together for slider other than maybe a sub or two of it. Iirc they did the reverse of this for wail a little bit ago, making SPU more potent, so there is a precedent for this.
Or if they just change the effect of spu, maybe make the distance longer or something.
Maybe at top level, but I personally don't find it annoying enough to restrict. Plus it promotes great team coordination and is honestly one of the most fun specials to play around in zones, if people were discouraged from running it, even with nerfs to other options something like strikes is safer and on easier weapons, which does matter at low-mid level.
i am so fucking mad about how they did this special dirty and turned it into a zones cheeser instead of an actual entry special that creates moments where weapons can pop off
I just realized- slider is a big rideable curling bomb
I will say that I don't think current vac can really be a problem in RM, because it doesn't offer much in defending pushes compared to other pushing specials like Kraken. It's primarily an offensive tool that can help diversify comp styles by not being good on both offense and defense.
I think if vac got a buff like "can switch to shot mode whenever" it could then become a potential problem in RM if it was too good.
If we are banning Reefslider cheese, we should also ban Tristrike cheese, Bubble cheese, Trizooka cheese and especially ESPECIALLY Cooler cheese as well.
Cooler is genuinely on the level of Splat1 QRSJ, if not worse because while Cooler vs no Cooler still boils down to zombies vs no zombies, Cooler vs Cooler boils down to who can break the other team's Cooler cycle, instead of just relentless but even meatgrinder of two-sided QRSJ.
It's nowhere near S1 QR. And your analysis of the cooler meta is silly and wrong.
The buffs honestly ruined the specials potential. Like every buff they do slider becomes more annoying without ever feeling better to use.
One thing I’m wondering with you mentioning needing to ban special charge up on Tristrike weapons is, what if we just banned special charge up on shooters? Would that open up the short range role to other classes, or would it just send us into 52 gal meta or some other dominant weapon? (I guess it would basically remove Zap and cooler diversity, but I don’t think Zap is being picked that much now anyway)
Re move it
RE MOVE IT
*RE MOVE IT*
as a former tetra player i wholeheartedly agree this special is kind of lame and gets way worse as you climb up the ladder. really feel sometimes (not always) like you have an instant throw button rather than a functional special
Played against a Lux, Wringer, and Dapples in X Battle zones. All reefsliders… we won but it was pure hell 😞
It's not 🧀 it's "Skill!"
Wait is the main channel vid out (Of dread wringer)?
i love reef its so silly
One thing that comes to mind when you mention that just because reef cheese is only decent, that doesn't mean it's healthy for the game, is something from the yugioh community.
Without going into too much detail, we've said that just because something has an answer, that doesn't mean that it's healthy for the game.
I also want to say that we've also said "just draw the out" which is the equivalent or saying "just don't let it happen"
Not 100% certain why I brought this up, but I feel like there's something to be learned from how our community handles these things.
Just change mpu sk that it increases slider travel speed and distance instead of radius
If we are talking about Slider cheese then strike cheese also has to be adressed because when done right it’s stronger than slider cheese on most maps
thank you blue dapples 🙏🏾
They should nerf the paint radius and increase the zone size.
increasing the size of splat zones as a whole can get out of hand very quickly, look at eeltail alley
@xvstar_ Undertow Spillway zones are pretty small and can be easily be covered by reef slider cheese. Only for certain maps not all of them. All the opponent have to do is farm reef slider or have two players with reef slider and easily cover both zones.
@@ShadowX892Undertow is one of the better maps for not succumbing to Slider cheese since it's a 2-zone map. It'll always contest but it'll never cap.
@@TheLaXandro I'll test it out once I return back home.
Horrific idea. Go play a rotation of eeltail and sorch gorge on zones, and tell me increasing zone size is a good idea.
Can we worry about how op hyra is after we fix this?
Hydra is one of the least viable weapons in the game right now, what are you on about?
Char Char please 🙏
A potential idea for fixing insta-cap cheese (not just for Reefslider but in general) that I don’t see talked about often would be adjusting the game mode itself. I feel like it would be more than reasonable to make it so that you have to hold the zone for a few seconds in order to apply penalty and start scoring. We’ve already seen a similar change between Splatoon 2 and 3 with Rainmaker checkpoints, so it could be reasonable. (Unfortunately, I don’t think Zones cheese as a big enough issue for Nintendo to take notice like they did for breakaway 30-second Rainmaker games.)