How to Be a SAFER Kayaker - 1 step method
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 มิ.ย. 2024
- With all the safety chatter these days, I felt it may be time to share some thoughts on the matter. Are we actually making things worse these days? I have a simple 1 step method to becoming a safer kayaker...
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I just started back in June 2022. First thing I ever wanted to do was get my roll down pat. Told myself one roll a day until I have it mastered. Brother helped me significantly learning it on his own and teaching me. We practiced left, right, hand, one hand, back deck and all sorts of ways. Looks like mummy roll is next!
I’ve been thinking about the things you’ve been saying a lot these past few weeks. I see a lot of people who want to run rivers, and do, but without a really confident roll.
Hope I catch you out there one day and chat with you more about such an important topic.
Thank you for posting!
Thanks a ton BOWW! Look forward to it!
Makes sense to me. As someone coming up between these two schools of thought, it's a good push in the right direction to keep working the rolls and working on a broader quiver than an a single on-side sweep. I wanna make my son and wife watch this one.
Right on Dan!
Took SWR from Chris Wing/H20. The first several hours of the course is a sit down discussion about boating in general, with a focus on preventive and proactive safety vs. reactive safety. Essentially, the idea that 80% of what you do to be safe should happen before trip and before you put-on. Chris really made the point that when it comes to avoiding bad sh*t , fancy knots and PFDs are not substitutes for skill and smart decision making (risk management).
Right on Todd! Those guys are awesome!
First and foremost is to be proactive and preventative, and also be prepared for the worst. Mitigate the danger, and if you can't, use other tools (bracing, rolling etc.) to avoid swimming.
Starts with the roll!!! Honest to god hit the nail on the head with every point in this video and have been guilty of some of those things myself. It’s now time to take control and work on the roll! Just want to become a better boater so that we can make others better as well. As you said, no real desire to become an instructor but just to help people get to the same level. You said, at the end of the day, better paddling is the safest bet! Thank you for the words of wisdom brother and inspiring the rest of us to be better no matter what water it is.
Thanks brother!! I love your stoke!!! Keep driving!!
I agree with pretty much everything you said in this video! I always stress to people I bring into the sport, how much easier it is to find people to boat with, once they have a reliable combat roll. Everybody is between swims, but it makes trips more stressful for the people you are paddling with, when they have little-to-no confidence in your roll. It is also important to me for them to develop their rolls early because I try to have them take the lead on safe Class II to III rivers, even if it's their PFDs. I had to lead myself (and others) down almost every river I paddled for years, and I think the experience/confidence I gained in reading water was invaluable. If they don't feel confident in their roll, they are going to be too timid to focus on picking the best lines down the river.
Indeed Derek!
Thank you for posting this! I have seen folks without a roll running whitewater, and it makes me nervous and I don't enjoy the run as much.
Thanks Terry!
I take it back…This is the best video I’ve seen. I think you are absolutely correct about the roll! I know I would feel better knowing I can roll and combat roll than swimming all the time or worrying if I might have to swim! Got to stop playing and get my roll down!
Right on Thomas! Thanks a ton! Yes! get that roll 100% and you wont believe how far you will progress!!
Great video and great advice! My family started this wonderful sport together all at the same time. As a family, we decided to go to the lake early and often until we all had a bombproof roll (If there is such a thing). We are now on year 3 of progression and it's been a blast. yes, we have all had SWIMS but swimming is part of it!
Thanks John! Thats what Im talking about!
I really needed this today bro. I have a roll BUT lately, I’ve been missing my rolls, not sure what’s going on but I refuse to run anything above my present skill level until my roll is bomb proof. I actually got discouraged today after pulling skirt, I stayed out there trying to figure out what I was doing wrong after having plenty of successful rolls before this, it broke me down mentally, long story short, your timing couldn’t be more perfect in releasing this video, thank you.
Right on DOP! Stay on it! If you have some good paddler buddies, have them look at it for you. It may be something simple that has crept in there...
Thank you for the vid. I wanted to say that this applies to a lot of fields I think. I’m a musician, personally, and a lot of what I do starts with a breath (my equivalent of a roll). A large emphasis is put on just getting out there and paddling, as well as just getting out there and playing hard music. The thing is, if your skills don’t match the River/song, you end up tensing up and paddling/playing defensively. You’re not really playing the music so much as you are reacting to the fact that you’re in it.
Also a paddler, but I saw some other applications to what your saying. It all starts with really simple stuff; rolling. Maybe hard to learn. Takes a few months. Fundamental to everything we do, though.
Thank you again for a great video!
Thanks a ton Stephen!! For sure!
When I did my two or three day beginner kayak class in the UK about 20 years ago, rolling was part of it. You didn't have to be able to roll to pass the stage, but they did teach us *how* to roll and have us attempt a few times. Now as far as I can tell rolling isn't covered by British Canoeing until the "advanced" courses (at least if you take the sea kayaking branch, which was the one I was looking at). I guess part of it is that sit on top and beamy recreational kayaks have reframed what the bare minimum skills are to get started . Not really relevant to whitewater, but just a more general comment on how attitudes to kayak skills have changed.
Yeah, at first it was quite surprising to see...
Well said. I’m mostly supportive of people challenging themselves but when somebody swims the first 3 rapids on Upper Nanty, time to walk back to the car and hit the pool for another month or two. Not fair to everyone else on the river. Also, on the other side, I have seen some roll class instructors really delay peoples progress, where they didn’t even try to do the full roll until 4, 6, or 8 pool sessions in. This is probably to keep people from getting scared, but also maybe to keep them paying for lessons. Those same people tend to give up as soon as they get in moving water and go upside down and sell all their gear the next day. I learned to roll the old fashioned way: I went to a lake by myself and failed 50 times in a row until I got it. Was a trial by fire but it only took me 2 one hour sessions. Kayaking takes a lot of tenacity and I think putting yourself in uncomfortable situations is just part of the sport.
Right on Preston!
I have to travel 3 hours for the nearest WW, have kids, etc and just not easy to get out to a river, so I’ve taken to flat water play boating. This has helped me tremendously as it’s flipping a lot trying to do stern stalls, cartwheels, etc. Makes rolling practice something other than just rolling practice and more dynamic. Its been a key part of my progression and taking it out to a eddy line only makes in better roll practice.
Thats what Im talking about! It will all pay off!
Absolutely on point. Play will make you have a fantastic roll even when on flat water. When we paddle rivers with friends and someone swims we are always there to help and usually chalk it up to learning. When a freestyle boater swims everyone starts heading to an eddy like there’s sharks in the water haha!
I agree. It’s the same exact thing that’s happened to SCUBA diving certification.
Hello Pete. That was an amazing insight into your views and experience in kayaking. I absolutely endorse what you have said. In my early paddling days, I rolled hundreds of times - in the pool and on class 3/4 white water. I paddled rivers that I would not have touched if I couldn't roll - and, as you said, it was fun because I could roll. Being fearful of capsizing and swimming will never make a great paddler and does put pressure on rescue teams and methods. 100% behind you Pete! Keep safe buddy! 😎
Thanks E&D!
Very good points... Exactly my thoughts! Im all about safety, but the roll is most important tool in a boaters toolbox. Great vid!
Thanks Brandon!
The troop decided to go to scout camp at Rainy Mountain. They had a kayaking program. We got them signed up, and one of the adult volunteers, might have been an assistant scoutmaster. I had a few kayaks, so I did some instruction. We reserved the pool. Went thru all the beginner stuff, getting in and out of the kayak. Then came the learning to roll. We startede off with the hands roll. 7 out of 10 got that right away. Then I added the paddle to their roll and we were off. Went to our local lake and started paddling, then it was time for camp. At camp, the first day they had the scout play the kayak staff water polo in their kayaks. Of course, if you turned over you were out. The staff was shocked when my scouts did hand rolls and kept playing. The staff couldn't do that. We won. The next day we were off to the tuckasegee river in Bryson city. Had a great day paddling. But because of the regulations we could not go on the Nantahala river on a holiday, so we did the nantahala the next day. My friend went with us so it was one on one going down the river. He watched my son and I took the other scout. We took our time catching eddy's and scouting. They did awesome. The next day we back at the Tuck. Thursday night they announced that we were to spend the next day at a play hole on the chattooga river. I didn't like that most of the time would be spent waiting for one person to play in the hole, so my son and I and another scout left. We spent the night at a friends house and went to the ocoee the next day. Put in below Grumpy and spent time catching evert eddy. Taking the safe lines and sneeked down the river. On Sat we did the upper ocoee and walked the olympic section, put in below grumpy' again and ran the river again. Sun we did both sections again and drove home. My son and I went up to the ocoee every weekend that summer, leaving on Thurs night and coming home sunday. A couple of weeks we stayed a week. By the end of the summer my son was full on. We spent much of the next few summers kayaking , He got his Eagle and in his speech tole how that kayaking had really made us close.
I know most instructors don't teach the hands roll first, but with young kids, it worked really sell. I think it developed the hip snap and mussel memory from the beginning. I agree with you that the roll opens up the doors and eliminates the fear of not rolling. Keep going
Great video. I have a ways to go before I have a "bombproof" roll, but the progress I have made has really increased my confidence and enjoyment of paddling.
Right on Paul!
As someone in this exact situation, I can say that it can be really tempting to run something you feel confident you could do. The choice should always be the honest assessment of ones skills. I have passed on trips to rivers I would love to run but I am honest and my roll lacks due to experience. Like you say a roll in a pool and in the real deal are totally different things.
Right on 406FL!
Hey Pete, great vid.... I agree with everything you said for someone who wants to white water kayak. Roll process goes hand in hand with bracing and different strokes and maneuvers as paddlers progress. The ones that never devolop a confident roll especially as intermediates plateau and become frustrated. There is also the safety component that puts everyone at risk when having to rescue swimmers class 3 and above. Why is it that whenever someone finally develops a good roll they always comment on how it changed their whole perspective on the river and they love it now..... Thats proof to all the nay sayers right there👍
Thanks Mike! you are on it!
Great video!! I always keep an eye out for safety on the water while kayaking on whitewater or flatwater. And took some lessons on safety too. But nothing gave me more confident than being able to roll in whitewater class 2. A great feeling! Less scared to be upside down results in being upside down less and less! But the roll is not bomb proof yet, so we keep practising!!
Right on Alex!
U just make common sense, I am 63 doing small stuff for a season. Need to learn the roll! Great vid, safety would be having a roll.
Right on bushpilot!
Excellent video. The feathers were fun. I don't get a lot of opportunities to get on moving water so I spend a lot of time practicing my roll in flat water so that I can enjoy myself more when I do get those opportunities. An excellent confidence builder for me was the play wave at the OKC Riversports WW park. Lots of practice in rolling in flow.
Thanks Josh! It all helps!!
I agree 100% After being in an IK for two years, I took a hardshell class. I wanted to take a roll class before ever getting on the river for instruction, but it was strongly encouraged take the on river class first. Which I did, then took the roll class straight away, but it wasn't required though. My reasons were selfish, I was tired of swimming every time the boat flipped. Great content!!
Thanks Scotty!
I just bought all my gear and a seaeagle 300x. I did some class 2-3 with instruction. I had swims but had a great time. Rolling doesn't relate when your in an open top but the whole Idea of increasing skills as top priority I can understand. I think understanding how the water moves will really help me next. Fast water does weird stuff. If you have any friends with a boat like mine it would be cool to see how they keep up with you and a group.
I know several folks that use the duckies...They are a bit slower, but we all get to the takeout together!
Interesting video Pete. There has been a shift in recent years on SWR (and equivalent courses) to focus on better downriver paddling as well as rescues. I think most course providers would in someways agree we cannot rely solely on a rescue course to make us safer.
A roll will help with confidence, as long as it is learned at the right time. I paddled with someone once who had bomb proofed a roll in a pool before very going on a river, they were so confident they jumped to paddling higher grades because they could always roll. However they started to become a liability because they did not understand a line, posture, timing and other fundamentals. They did not seem to realise this, almost a though the roll gave them a false perspective in their overall skill - eventually ended with a broken boat after a bad swim (thankfully they were okay)! Unsurprisingly they seemed shocked this happened, and ended up sort of giving up the sport! I think a roll should be developed before hitting grade 3 while allowing a holistic development through grades 1&2. Then using that new roll to relook at the skills already learned. As you say having the skills above the level you really helps.
Thanks for the comment David! When I started, my buddies joked that I had class 2 skill with a class 5 roll. LOL. Fortunately, I stayed within a reasonable limit of stupidity. I progressed very quickly and was surrounded by folks who kept it real for me. I would never want to go back and progress differently because my roll was not solid from the beginning. As far as development, Im not sure holistic development can actually happen without a solid roll myself. I agree that jumping in over your head can happen whether that is a lack of experience or a lack of skill or both. However, I just cant envision a scenario in kayaking either as a student or as a teacher or just paddling in any water, where having a roll would not be more beneficial to a paddler.
Great comment, it's too easy to get overconfident with your roll and go into something your actual paddling skills can't handle so you don't go into something that will require a swim
Pete, its always enjoyable watching your videos and excursions...
👋😎👍
thanks Gerry!
The roll is my top priority goal for this year, especially with gas prices soaring. Cheaper to get to a local lake/reservoir than to drive out of Ohio to start learning whitewater. Keep up the great vids, hopefully I will get a chance to get down there and paddle with all of you fine folks in the future.
Get after it K! Thats what Im talking about!
Great discussion with lots of great points. Essentially, the best defense is a great offense, and that means being proactive. Develop the skills to get yourself through a situation, and not have to rely on others to get you out of it. That doesn't mean always avoid it, it means having the knowledge and tools to handle whatever you encounter, and the mindset and skills to properly employ them when they're needed, and that will go a lot further in keeping you safe than falling into the trappings of a victim mentality, being defensive, and leaving your safety entirely to others and ultimately to chance.
Right on Wayne!! You are all over it! Thanks!
Hey that's me swimming at 6:00 haha! I fully agree with what you're saying and Saturday was a wakeup call for me to get out on some flat water and practice my roll. In my case a new dry suit with a tight neck gasket and having my nose plug off was enough to freak me out under water. It's easy to fall into a trap of thinking you have a good roll as a new boater and the overconfidence that results from that can lead to some very dangerous situations. I appreciate the insght on this and will do my best to be more proactive about my safety on the river instead of reactive.
Good stuff Ben!!! Be looking for Sunday's video too!
Why was the water green
Great video !!!
Thanks GUTH!
Great video man!! I agree with this mind set. Especially when it comes to teaching my son!! Shred on man!!
Thanks Brother!!
Pete you and I talked about this last summer. I am with ya. I believe as a novice I need and want to learn the roll. I feel it will make my paddling more fun, because I won't be on the defensive all the time. My plan is to get a roll by the end of summer. Thanks for a great video. I am hoping that there is some people around Northern Wisconsin that may be willing to help me learn. Otherwise I may need to fly to NC to get instruction from the best! Thanks Pete!
Right on Shorty!! Keep me posted!
What a great video. A lot of packrafting instruction follows the same tenants you describe here, yet we must always prep for the eventual swim. Our greatest tool is the wet re-entry, especially if one is carrying gear on their packraft. It is so important that you scout rapids in a packraft and really choose the safer line. All that primary stability creates a false sense of safety on flat, semi-swiftwater, but the moment big waves & holes are introduced, that primary stability can get taken away in a heartbeat. I can't wait to start learning my rolls this year, hardshell and packraft (unloaded, of course!!)
Right on NYC Packrafter! Thanks!
Half and half on this.
I'd agree (strongly) that the *aspiration* to roll is important, however I, at the beginning, put far more emphasis on the ability and understanding of having a strong brace, and avoiding any of that 'slap the water' nonsense. For me, the [low] brace is [normally] the prompt rotation of the paddle in the water from a pulling stroke to a supporting (pushing?) posture.
Then it's the T-rescue with strong boat rotation for recovery, as a preliminary to the roll/high brace. Folk can't learn and practice the roll until they can high brace, and they can't practice the high brace until they can roll (both have a 'commitment' posture that the unconfident find difficult).
The first real river roll is a magical moment!
nobody forgets their first combat roll!
I love this one! I don’t know how I missed it…I blame the algorithm.
I’m going to go roll practice :) Our water has thawing here in the Midwest!!!
he he he! Thanks Pak! It wasn't a Sunday night video...that may be why it slipped by...
Another great video from the King of the River thanks Pete - same in the UK… on other news I’m rolling in a pool… warm water is a treat
Well, the king of the hamburger after the run anyway! LOL!! Thanks Merlin!!
So the troop is going to scout camp this summer and some wanted to take kayaking. We signed up, and I took them to a pool. We started out trying hands rolls, after two sessions 7 out of ten could hands roll. Put the paddle in their nand and tried using the paddle. 10 for 10, ready for camp. Got to camp. First day they wanted them to get accustomed to the kayak. We played basketball, scouts vs the staff. Previously, when someone turned over, they were out, no roll. But now my scouts could push staff over and they were out, scouts would just hand roll or paddle roll.. The second day they skipped the roll lesson and we went to the river. Scouts did great. Next two days, same thing. The next day Friday was a wash out. So, Thursday night, I took my son and another scout over to the Ocoee. We but on half way down. A friend of mind watched my son and I took the other scout. Jeff flipped over at the top of Double Trouble. Immediately rolled up, but he was facing upstream surfing the wave, his first wave. came on down and we were off. Again he flipped at the top of Tablesaw, rolled up, and paddled down. The next day we did the Upper Ocoee, walked the race course, and got back on. Walked Grumpy and paddled the Middle down to the bottom. Packed up and drove home. Many of those scouts are kayakers today.
Love it!
Another great video Pete! Hopefully my roll is still bombproof when we go paddling! :)
Thanks Ken! I'm sure your worst roll is still better than mine! LOL
Excellent video, I couldn't agree with you more as a beginner paddler.
Thanks Eric!
Lol little overkill on the nukes at the end there Pete 🤣
But you are right, improving a boater's skill will inevitably help to improve their safety on the water, and potentially not just theirs but those that they paddle with as well. I myself am mainly a slow-moving water paddler, for different reasons, both personal and in general, but I still work on improving my strokes, my efficiency and my awareness of the situations I face or even put myself in on the water.
Thanks for the blunt honesty, it's needed more in the world today. Cheers!
Wait! What! Overkill?? LOL. If I used one more, I would have annoyed myself!! Just trying to keep it light and fun while throwing it out there...LOL. Thanks Jason!!
Thanks Pete, a great video for everyone who kayaks. I agree with everything you have said. But, I am a touring kayaker, and we can’t easily get safety or rolling courses here in Missouri. The Whitewater group here is very active and I realize there is some crossover in the safety aspects between flat water touring and WW, but this has been really tough. No ACA L2 courses, no instruction for rolling of touring kayaks, must travel several states away to get one, and I even had one cancelled on me because not enough people signed up. I would love to learn how to roll, I am ready, and understand its importance. But, the pool sessions scheduled in Missouri are for WW, not touring, so I feel left out and don’t really want to hijack the pool session time from the swift water kayakers that are there. Going to an occasional beginner/intermediate level skills clinic once in a while has been helpful, but only for preparing for that next level including rolling, that I can’t seem to get here. Not sure what to do, maybe you can suggest a strategy. I know I am not alone, others here have noted the same problem, we all want to feel safe enough in our adventures. Is it really normal, for touring kayakers in the central US to have to travel several states away to get the appropriate instruction we need?
Thanks Barry! IF the whitewater paddlers in your area are worth their salt and are like the paddlers here...they will gladly and heartily teach you to roll. The whitewater community is very helpful that way. The only issue may be how much space your boat takes in the pool, but I have been to many joint ww / sea kayaker pool sessions around my parts. An accomplished sea kayaker is on par with an accomplished whitewater boater. The disciplines are different, but the skillsets needed are very similar. The roll is no different between the two other than variations that each crew does. I would encourage you to reach out to the local ww group and ask for help. I would bet they will be on board. Who knows, you may get the bug and become a short boater too!!
Thanks Pete, I will do that. I was aware that safety and many skills do cross over between the two. Maybe I should have left some storage room for another kayak!
i love your videos. im not really a kayaker but your videos are extremly entertaining.
Thanks Bigfoot!
I'm right there with you on these. I've stopped going to the larger gatherings just due to the amount of unpreparedness I've seen.
I hear ya Dean.
Couldn't agree more on this video. Seen way too many people pop skirt immediately even in class 5.
Thanks Brother!!
If possible, then do your rolling practice with someone who already knows how to roll correctly and who can correct your technique. Learning on your own takes a lot more time and you can develop bad habits that you have to unlearn later. But I absolutely agree -- ability to right yourself makes learning other skill so much easier.
For sure Voomas!! Thanks!
It's a really good idea to have a helper. They can not only critique your roll, they can give you a T-rescue which saves a lot of time and effort.
Great Topic and Well Done Video... Thank you
Thank you Mark!
Totally agree, thank you , more positive agression needed, tell us how you make those decisions upside down and dragging underwater, its awesome, but the thought process must be intense...
Great suggestions brenz!
Pete, I would add that if someone has an inflatable kayak ( hopefully a good one designed to handle whitewater ), they MUST learn to get back in their boat, as soon as possible. This means being able to re-enter the boat in deep water. I have found some river banks to be deeper than you would think. Boat handling for an IK is greatly enhanced by having something to brace your feet on ( along with a "seat" back ). I also find that being able to brace effectively is greatly enhanced with thigh straps in an IK. I think that IK's are inherently unlikely to be able to "roll", but since my bracing has improved after watching your videos, I might try rolling mine this summer. I think it hinges on being able to stay "attached" to the boat when upside down. I totally agree that the biggest safety measure is to be in control of your kayak.
I rolled a pack raft without too much difficulty. It would be terrible to learn in! All good points!
Interested in that fun 1.5 for my 10yo. We’ll be at USNWC 15-23APR. She’s the only kayaker I know that hasn’t swam in ww. 15 or so days on the river. Teaching her to have a solid roll before getting on the river was the key. Love your videos!
Right on Apex!! Stay tuned as we determine how we want to give that away! Thanks!!
This is a great video Pete Please SAY IT LOUDER 👍
Thanks Sam!
Well said Pete and I hope everyone understands that when someone is swimming it makes the people around them very nervous if it’s a bad spot and in my mind it’s always roll up buddy
Thanks PALS!
Counter opinion: Rolling is not the most vital part of learning how to paddle. As someone who started in an open boat, I have plenty of swims to my name. This has caused two main outcomes. The first one is that I have become far more comfortable doing self rescues and safely swimming in rapids. The second one, and in my opinion the most important one, I became much better at finding "dry lines" and using the water to traverse a river. Before ever sitting in a kayak I was confident running C2+ and mostly successful at C3. So when I got into a kayak I learned how to roll on the first day, but spent months paddling a kayak before actually needing to use it. I had to borrow a playboat for a weekend of surfing to force me to learn a combat roll.
I think you have a great perspective here, but now that I am teaching beginners paddling, I firmly see the value of getting people out on a river and learning to paddle down C2 before we even talk about our rolls. Time on the water is time on the water. Once getting down some C2 becomes predictable, then it is time to start working on rolls and braces. Starting with something like a roll is not going to grow the sport. Especially if the time you have to paddle is limited. What should be stressed is that you need a roll before you think about going beyond C2 or even just continuous flow.
Thanks for the great content!
Thanks Kevin! I know there is more than one way to skin the cat. Paddler personality, general aptitude, etc can have as much a roll in how this might best be done as well. I think I can say I love to see growth in the sport and have basically tailored my channel (and much of my paddling these days) to reaching that newer boater as well as bring others into the sport. I truly love seeing new boaters excel. I try to stress the fun side of it all. I also am probably a little more "sendy" than most, but I always try to keep things as positive, fun, safe etc as possible while pushing folks to improve, at least a little, each time out. That pendulum between growing the sport and maintaining the safest disposition is a tricky one to get just right. I think it has been swung too far to the growth side. I just feel that it has required the community to at least in some regards rely on SWR in lieu of paddling skills. I dont believe it is a zero sum game though. I think we could pull efforts to put students with instructors from the very beginning that can help get over that roll hurdle. In short, there is no scenario I know of where not having a roll is better for a paddler than having a roll. Therefore, in turn, it must always be better for a paddler to be able to roll in whatever water he is paddling than not be able to roll. So, basically, I am simply wanting what is best for each and every paddler. Accepting less than the best (safest) for each paddler for the sake of growth seems out of balance. I want both growth, and everyone rolling! Now, how to achieve that? I hope we as a community can figure this out!
Thanks again for your counterpoints!! all good points that just highlight how dynamic both the sport and this dialog is!
@@RiverKingsKayak thanks for the great response. I love watching your videos and seeing paddlers get better each time. You do wonders in terms of getting new paddlers out there.
Something to consider is that we might have different perspectives based on the rivers we most often paddle. Here it mostly drop pools, making the SWR situations far less common than just collecting the down river yard sale. A continuous flow river definitely presents a different set of risks and considerations when learning and teaching on.
Keep the great videos coming!
Will do Kevin! Thanks!
A roll is my goal this season. Just got me a zen 3. Signed up for a clinic. I’m ready. I felt very limited last year starting out in low level whitewater. I know the only way to get to the fun stuff is to get the skills!
Right on Wes!!!
Swiftwater rescue training should help you learn about prevention as much as getting yourself out of difficult situations. Foot entrapment and pinning on a strainer have a low probability of a successful outcome. You can train for rescuing people in these situations, but this is a hail Mary move.
Just a comparison, in the backcountry skiing world their is a massive focus on avalanche skills training. The reality is that if you are buried, even when everyone has the right gear and are trained there is a high probability of a fatality. The focus needs to be staying out of an avalanche, but train/practice for extricating someone from a burial. This comes back to the hail Mary.
When boat control fails then swiftwater rescue kicks in.
The goal is to have as many tools in your tool box so you can manage risk.
I have learned lots from your videos: the wiggles, fladdling, and being aggressive in putting your boat where you want it.
right on Dan! As many tools as possible is key!
Pete...You're not wrong.
To build on what you are talking about here, I wonder if a better approach would be to adopt a risk management mindset where one has the SKILL to be able to identify risks and then to decide whether to accept, avoid, and/or mitigate that risk. A boater with a high degree of skill would be able to conduct risk management rapidly and sometimes, instinctually. I think with this type of approach, skills (including the roll), safety, and SWR training simply become tools in the toolbox along with everything else.
I am interested to know your thoughts.
I think you are all over it!!
Just recently learned about H2O Dreams…so excited to work on my skills right near Green River BBQ where I plan to reward myself after learning to roll with one of the highest ranked River King cheeseburgers…and that incredible sausage dip!
They are awesome Matt!!
Well said, Pete. As a Swiftwater rescue swimmer wish that people would be more confident with their rolls. When I did swift water paddling I never learned the roll and that is why I became a swimmer and only do flat water with minor ripples.
Thanks Kevin!
I agree with this. Having a solid roll is so important for kayaking. I cut my teeth in white water on the New River Gorge as a raft guide for several years before I got into kayaking. When I finally bought my kayak I practiced for hours to get my roll. I jumped into class 4-5 right off the bat. I wouldn’t recommend that for anyone, and the only reason I did was because I was paddling a section of water I had extensive experience on.
He he! Love it Raminnoodle!
I am no expert, but I can share my experience with other people new to the sport. I paddled whitewater for one year until ALS took my ability away. Mainly at the USNWC in 2020. Before COVID got crazy, I took my roll class in early March 2020. I was their first student of the year. If I remember correctly, it was about $50. It was the best $50 I spent on kayaking. My instructor not only taught me how to roll, but he also taught me about boat setup, how "low-angle" touring paddling does not work well in whitewater, etc. This was after weeks of beating myself up in a pool trying to roll myself. One thing he said stuck with me more than anything else though. Recreational paddling and most touring paddling is an activity; whitewater kayaking is a sport. Sports require skills. If you cannot catch a football or block, you will sit on the bench. If you cannot perform a layup in basketball, you will sit on the bench. The bench in kayaking is found on the side of the river, where you sit draining your boat, and that's if you are lucky.
I had been a touring paddler for years. Hundreds of miles and days on lakes and Class II rivers like the Catawba. Not once did I swim. That changed my first lap of the USNWC. I proudly nailed my first two rolls and missed the third. I had made it maybe 1/4th of the wilderness channel, a few dozen yards at most. You will quickly realize that rolling is step 1 of a million in that first lap of a whitewater river or park. Bracing, edge control, how to not get trapped in holes, how to avoid rafts (floating undercuts), patience, lines, boat position, and the list goes on and on. It took me weeks to make it down that channel without swimming. I swam many, many, many times after that.
I am a little more direct than Pete. If you give up or put off Step 1 of 1, maybe this sport isn't for you. There is nothing wrong with that. There is nothing wrong with staying in a longboat, but whitewater paddling takes skills to do safely. Even a noob like me quickly learned that.
Right on B!
TRUTH 💣💥! For now I will continue to provide footage for the carnage cam...you're welcome.
I expect to see some great combat roll footage from you in '22. You can do it!
Thanks Austin!! I have a feeling your carnage reels will be fewer and fewer!
Hope to see ya at WOR this year
right on Troy!! Say hey if you see me!
I just like fishing from my kayak so Rollin is not in my best interest, but I like your idea of it and I think I will just watch you guys from the shore.
Thanks last rebel!
Right on
Pete, I have felt this way all along. It’s why I have been tentative on moving up in river difficulty, as I haven’t been able to consistently make time for skills, as needed before getting to another river, a bit beyond what I’ve done before. I have a mapped out plan, (we know how that can go, lol), for getting more of that practice in the coming seasons. (Having an 85% flat water roll, without consistent practice, and skulking up is not adequate for best safety.)
As a comparison: I DO NOT like being a reactive skier, unless necessary… so, why should I be comfortable being a reactive kayaker… unless necessary!?
I took formal lessons for other activities, and then, “practice, practice, practice.”
This should be the same. I’ll be out on the nearby river, and lake, just for these reasons. I plan on the same for my daughter. She needs to work her way up in a safe environment; and learn how to mitigate an issue when it occurs… not just hope that she can pop the skirt, and get a little help. That is NOT so much of a fun feeling for her, or for me.
Thanks for the usual, candid talk, as needed. I prefer frankness, as necessary… even when someone doesn’t want to hear it… oops… is that how I get in trouble with my wife? 😳 -AVA Ashley
he he! Right on Brother! cant wait to see that first combat roll!!
I agree with all these points though I feel it's important to get on the river as much as you can even if you don't have a roll. Although you might be more reactive at the beginning any experience you get is better than not trying because you are scared you might swim.
Right on Patrick. As long as roll development is the top priority until it is achieved! So many just fall in to the temptation to spend all their available time paddling rivers and never really dedicate that time to the roll...then they start accepting the mindset that maybe they just dont/wont get it.
@@RiverKingsKayak yes definitely, I know lots of people who never developed their roll and have succumbed to paddling 2s and the occasional 3. Awesome videos man
Shout out my mom who thought me how to hand roll first before letting me on water and before letting me learn to roll with a paddle. Last week I had my paddle ripped out of my hand when surfing on the ocoee got flipped and came right back up, if she had taught me any other way I would have swam
Right on Alex!! Your mom is a hero!!
Hey Pete!
Got those hammock straps from Warbonnet, thanks for helping me find them
Question, fully loaded (camping gear) expedition kayak with no spray skirt on, can it be rolled?
You are going to need a skirt. You can roll it but will be sitting in water afterwards and headed to the bank. LOL. With a skirt, no issues whatsoever!
Excellent video. I have been white water kayaking for a year now and still cant roll. The problem I have found is finding someone who will spend the time to teach you. I have had a couple of people spend a few hours here and there helping me to learn to roll but it hasnt continued, so I still havent got it...What Im going to do is buy a paddle float to start and try and spend hours in a local pond to teach myself as you did mate...
A paddle float is an option..... I hav followed a rolling class and i can roll now. For fun i have tried it with a paddle float but that is more difficult than having someone standing next to you in the water that can grab your hands or your paddle if your 2nd try failed. That person can be anyone. With the only instruction to get you up if your 2nd or third try fails. But it would be more productive if that person knows a bit about rolling. Just practice as much as you can💪💪
Only problem with a paddle float is the feedback that it gives you is not what you experience in a real scenario, and what could end up happen is you teach yourself muscle memory that will not work in a real scenario. What typically do with my students, when I am teaching rolling, is to start my holding the paddle as we run through roll drills, essentially acting as that paddle. However, what I can do, that a paddle float cannot, is gradually dial back the feedback on the paddle until I am not really holding onto it at all. This starts to teach some muscle memory that will work in the real world. Find yourself a weekly roll practice session at a pool in your area. Paddling Clubs typically host something like this. The club that I am a part of even has instruction available at those sessions. www.foothillspaddlingclub.org/news-feed/indoor-roll-practice-2022
Yeah, finding those folks that will help out is crucial! Keep at it!
Two things that changed my boating more than swr:
1) getting beat down at big drop or shutdown at the usnwc
2) telling myself it wasn’t an option to swim (even if it was)
And that day I'll bet it all clicked for you!
Good video and I agree on everything except when you said that you can't have a brace without a roll. I'd hope that is not the case. I don't have my roll yet, just started last season, started with a playboat for easy carry actually and its probably the worst boat to learn to roll with. However, I've had a ton of fun surfing small waves, side surfing, 360 and other things on Class I/II because I've learned to at least brace and hold that little squirly boat upright with a brace. If I go over, I'm done but the brace has giving me a LOT of fun so far. And I've got a pool roll clinic coming up next month, looking forward to that. I've got a LiquidLogic Remix crossover now for trips, I assume it would be easier to learn to roll?
Thanks Mike!
A roll and a brace are essentially the exact same core movements. They just start from different positions. The brace is essentially just the hipsnap and end of a roll that you start before you are all the way under. The roll just has a different beginning and you start while underwater. The skills are one in the same. I will say that you can possibly sort of brace, meaning you can react quickly and prevent the need for a deep brace. However, it has been my experience that most flips are easily avoided by bracing...and those that do not have a confident roll usually do not successfully brace out of the potential flips. Hope that explains it!
LOL! You are right about a pack raft!! zero edging, just leaning! but they are so much fun!!
As a beginner, the first thing I learned was a roll in a pool at the y, then I got in the river and it was a huge difference mentally. You want to throw that paddle and swim immediately, you have to work on the mental and physical aspect of setting up and rolling. But for sure, you shouldn’t even be kayaking if you can’t roll
Im not sure I would say you shouldn't kayak, but if you are going to be in a skirted boat, I would say your top priority upon beginning the sport would be to develop a reliable roll.
Love you brother 🎉❤
Thanks ctumbles!
Really interesting discussion. Where I live almost none of the rivers are deep enough for a roll, so it’s just not part of what we do. Can we really not learn to edge and brace without having a roll?
I paddle a self bailing packraft so I definitely swim, but of course a packraft doesn’t edge nearly as well as a kayak.
A roll and a brace are essentially the exact same core movements. They just start from different positions. The brace is essentially just the hipsnap and end of a roll that you start before you are all the way under. The roll just has a different beginning and you start while underwater. The skills are one in the same. I will say that you can possibly sort of brace, meaning you can react quickly and prevent the need for a deep brace. However, it has been my experience that most flips are easily avoided by bracing...and those that do not have a confident roll usually do not successfully brace out of the potential flips. Hope that explains it!
LOL! You are right about a pack raft!! zero edging, just leaning! but they are so much fun!!
Thanks Fayley A!!
Solid!
Thanks OMN!
Amen!
Thanks JT!
Yes lad 👍👍👍
I'm a sit on top kayaker... Lot of my friends think I'm silly because if I don't feel comfortable going through a shoot I get out and I walk it... But I'd rather walk it than be pinned up against a root wad
Right on S Chambers!
Ive had two cpmbat rolls on 1+. The swam twice in shallow 2+ , i made 3 attempts while my head was bouncing on the river bottom, the other i was stuck in a hole.
I have a roll but i dont.
I need more practice in deeper tivers
right on epwlod!
Hi Pete. Quick question. I'm 6'3" 6'4" 240lbs. Is a large Zen 3.0 a good kayak for me, fir whitewater and rolling? I have a recreational Kayak. I want something to roll and play with. I respect your knowledge. What do you think?
I have never paddled a Z3. I have several friends that have them and love them as a beginner boat. The only complaint I have ever heard is that some folks find it harder to roll...but I dont know first hand...
@@RiverKingsKayak thanks for the reply Pete, keep the good stuff coming brother. The Zen 3 is big. That's why I'm getting it. I'm 6'3" and 245lbs so I'm limited. Again thanks fit gettin' back to me.
I've been looking for some ww clinics within 8 hours of st louis. Can you point me in a good direction?
I have absolutely no idea for that area! I wish I could help!
Funny how I "intuitively" knew that getting my roll as quickly as possible was priority #1. The rest I owe to my best paddling buddy, who always says the same thing whenever I'm about to do something that is a step up for me: "Just paddle you'll be fine." He preps my mental game, and now that I am about to begin training my first beginner, I plan to always say the same thing. Can I order some of those swimming bell stickers from you? Those will probably be handy, too. lol
Right on Ian!
Great video Pete! This excludes me from whitewater anytime soon lol, I'm the big tail wagging the little dog 🤣
Oh, we can get you out there!!! If you like it, we can dig in and get you going!
@@RiverKingsKayak my intentions are to dip my toes in a little when it gets warmer weather, where I can float/swim/bob like Brian in a Tshirt and shirts 🤣 I've never officially swam only turned slightly over several times in places convenient to dump and recover, but never really "lost" it. But it's one of my fears I'm gonna have to hit head on, and not be that "defensive paddler" everywhere I go. My biggest fear is to have to rescue one of these kids that go with us on occasion, if I would have the fortitude to dive in a go for a rescue on my own and be successful.
Bomb proof Roll is #1, and LISTEN TO LOCAL boaters #2 ……. live there, can tell you everything you need to know to stay out trouble. When you show up to other creeks in other areas or states, you follow the local etiquette. Be polite, take advice, and respect the water 🤙🏼🚣🏻🚣🏻
Good advice!
Boom. That mummy roll tho... 🤔
Yeah, it never happened for me! LOL. I never tried much after that first few sessions of massive failure! LOL. I need to rekindle that attempt!!
Seems like common sense to me. Do some people just not get this or just resist this notion of safety?
No, they have just pushed it off to keep more people paddling. Then they had to start stressing more SWR as more folks were paddling and swimming on a regular basis. Now there is nothing to be ashamed of in a swim, it is part of kayaking...I just would love for folks to not think it was as frequently necessary....lol
What’s up with the green water @ 6:00? 😂
that was the st patricks day at the USNWC...they dye the water green that day
@@RiverKingsKayak oh wow that’s awesome! Thanks 🤘🏻
never paddle alone, easiest step of all
Never a bad policy
💯 💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯
Thanks Courtney!
why was the water green? 😂
They put dye in there for their season open celebration
Walking down the bank isn’t always safe. I have a Wilson Creek elbow to prove it...
LOL Rob!!!! How is the elbow btw?
@@RiverKingsKayak about 95%
I totally disagree using a-bombs here. You are more or less ”just” building solid and smart basement. So, concrite work would be better choise than bombs or feathers.
LOL!! I love it Jakke!!
A bomb proof roll is as vital to kayaking whitewater as a helmet man. I am sad to pick up on the fact that your expecting flak for this. It’s not your opinion, it’s the facts that built the world of whitewater were in today.
I have not received any flak myself. I just am amazed at how long boaters regularly go these days without nailing down their roll. It is not really their fault In a way. This is how we as a community have been pushing things on the newer boaters. I wish it was different.
Great video Pete 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻💦💦💦💦
Nah dude my daughter can't roll yet. She can hit eddies. She can ferry and she can wet exit. She's not going on anything more than a II until she can roll.
The emphasis on rolling has led to generations of paddlers that "follow the leader" and just bomb everything.
Nah dude. Have fun with your channel.
Thanks bearshark. The emphasis on rolling has been removed for about 10 or 15 years now. I see more follow the leader now than I have before (amongst the newer crowd). It is a fact that not having a roll makes it harder to develop all the other skills that make a kayaker proficient. I can guarantee that a group of paddlers that can roll will be much better on the river than a group of paddlers that cannot roll. Those that cannot roll will be far more likely to bomb the river in avoidance of flipping compared to paddlers that work every feature because they know they can roll. In any case, Love that you are getting your daughter out there!!! That is what it is all about!
Interesting to watch after my first season trying ww kayaking. It was with a local club beginner program. The roll wasn't emphasized, we did do some instruction and practice but the emphasis was getting out on the water. And for me, it's exactly like you said, since I don't have the roll, I'm always paddling extremely defensively and scared. And I swam a lot. I don't mind swimming, especially on a river (like the one we learned on), that had next to zero hazards. But it's just a pain in the ass and constantly psyched me out. I'm looking forward to practicing my roll this winter and dialing it in next summer.
Right on!!