Doubtful. Cersei would still be queen regent and would "suggest" the man be sent to the wall or be killed, and even if he went to the wall he'd probably end up being killed along the way. As for Sansa, it's plausible Littlefinger set up the riot to steal her. Now their is a chance she could be raped in the commotion, but if she wasn't they would probably have her betrothed to Tommen to keep her in court
14:05 Yep the Lannister attack of Highgarden in Season 7 broke me. It was that exact moment that made me realise the Game of Thrones I loved was dead and the writing had become horrendous. There was just so much wrong about a depleted exhausted Lannister army being able to teleport across Westeros to instantly take one of the strongest fortresses in the world with no siege equipment, and faced zero resistance from the Tyrell's 80,000 strong army that managed to come out of the War of 5 Kings unscathed. It irks me to this day
It wouldn't take a lot of justification to fix it. Randal Tarly was the Reach's best commander, and the Tyrels are not all that popular with their bannermen. Most of Highgarden's defenders would either desert, or betray Olenna. Who is an old woman whose line was wiped out, the Tyrel family was a lost cause to the Reachmen. And quite honestly, the Tyrels suck at fighting. Yes, Loras and his brothers are good swordsmen and jousters, but the males of the family are rather boneheaded, and afraid to commit. Always hedging their bets. It's how they rose to power, selling out the Gardeners to Aegon. It's how Mace Tyrel kept his head after the war, by not making things personal with Robert, and only making a half-hearted attempt to take Storm's End. Olenna and Margaery were schemers, and it's part of why the Reach houses are disloyal. They had the money, the food, and the men, but for the most part they're a diplomatic family. All show, no spine.
@@cdcdrr To an extent I agree with your comment. But the writing is still stupid because Randall Tarly was one of the Targaryen's most loyal bannerman who fought for them through Robert's rebellion. Why would he suddenly hate Daenerys? Calling her a foreign bitch when she was born in Westeros. That makes no sense. And part of why Randall is loyal is because he takes his oaths seriously. Betraying the Tyrells is no small feat or thing to do. His character motivation isn't there and it doesn't make sense in the context of joining the losing side when Tyrells are in great positions of power. Also the idea that the Tyrells aren't fighters is still really dumb. As one of the richest houses in the realm, Tyrell soldiers would be as well equipped with armour and weapons as anyone, which is a huge advantage. And also, the entire Tyrell house was started by an ancient Tyrell warrior who was an unreal fighter and saved the Gardener king or something. So the house of Tyrells comes from fighters, and they have lots of fighters in the modern day. And it's dumb to just say 80,000 men couldn't fight very well because they're all lovers and not fighters
@@cdcdrrthat's where it's wrong Margergys mother is a Hightower, olenna is a redwyne and her daughter is married to a redwyne, rowans are married to redwynes, So many houses are directly or indirectly connected to tyrells one way or another
Im Reading the book right now and Robert just died. What if they followed Renly’s plan? Getting the kids away from cercie and Ned and Renly beeing king untill Jofrey comes of age.
What if Robert had sent Joffrey to Winterfell to be fostered by Ned? Would that have changed Joffrey for the better? And what would've happened if Cersei had married someone other than Robert, maybe Oberyn Martell or even Ned Stark?
I don't really think it would of changed him, how he acted was certainly partly due to the terrible parenting but also just because of genes, he was after all a product of incest.
i disagree, I think Ned could have changed him for the better, more like a theon thing, maybe he would be good in winterfell but once he gets any hint of power he changes back to being a little bitch
This was a kid who was proud that he tore the insides of a cat and took out the unborn kitten to show his father when he was young. There was just something wrong with him because both his siblings turned out to be decent people, the parenting alone wasn’t the issue.
@@lauracatherine9925 no it's pretty much already stated that he was a mad man due to his genetics. If anything Joffrey being fostered in Winterfell may have made the relationship with the Starks and Lannisters falling apart quicker.
What if balon allied with Robb instead if attacking him What if tommen was a wise king What if lysa allied with Robb What if jon stayed with the wildlings What if Robb and marcella were betrothed instead of joffrey and sansa
@@talra81 yeah but they hate the lanisters , they married into them and stayed neutral while Robb was losing , if he was winning they might have even joined him
Lulu Broich I’m guessing the Tyrells would betroth Tommen to Margaery and still poison Joffrey at his wedding with Sansa to make Tommen and Margaery King and Queen, or they would poison Sansa and keep her out of the way and lead to Joffrey marrying Margaery and still being poisoned. I think the first is more credible though.
@leonpride Dorne would also most likely have the Tyrell’s supporting them effectively ending the siege on storms end and I think Rob and Ned would also have joined the Dornish although the Martells would still most likely sort of blame Rob for the deaths of their sister and her children they’d enter a really uneasy alliance. With war still raging and the Tyrell’s being quite ambitious I can imagine Tywin trying to find a way to pay them off to Join their cause you’ll be the kings hand, you’ll have this special title and that special title. I can see Tywin offering them whatever they wanted whilst still holding them on a very short leash. Although even if he had convinced the Tyrell’s to join forces unless the Tyrell’s attack from within the siege camp I don’t think it’d be enough to change the battle in any considerable way. If it does come to kings landing being taken by force once more I can see rob coming out as the winner. He’d allow Tywin to remain warden of the west in exchange for his daughters hand and maybe a few other lower Lannister’s would be taken as “guests” at kings landing. I think Jaime would be banished from the kings guard though. Killing Jaime for regicide would cause even more problems down the road. With Jaime kicked out of the kings guard he’ll most likely be sent back to casterly rock affectively ending the whole invent thing with him and Cersei for a long time. Due to the lack of Jaime Cersei would pretty much be forced into having Roberts babies. Let’s say all three are born the same except they’re actually Roberts children (black of hair) they’d be no need to kill Jon Arryn because there’s no secret for him to know. But let’s say around the same time as the TV show and books he dies of actual natural causes. Tywin sends Jaime to escort Cersei and the king to winterfell as commander of the Lannister forces he and Cersei do the incest thing bran catches them still falls. Ned goes with Rob south serves as warden of the north nothing wrong with Jon Arryns death but Ned still does a little poking of the bear. Rob still dies by the boar and tells Ned he’ll rule until Joffrey is old enough. With there being no Cersei Ned I know you have sex with your brother scene I know the kids aren’t Roberts there would be no need for Ned to rock up to the throne room with the gold cloaks and whatever was left of his household guard. He presents the letter to Ser Barristan just as he did in the show but Cersei still manages to twist things so that Joffrey remains on the iron throne without a regent. Joffrey agrees to keep Ned as his hand of the king though. Rob would obviously stay in winterfell no need for him to march south if there’s nothing wrong meaning the north stays completely united. Obviously because Joffrey is the true rightful heir they’d be no reason for Stannis to attack Kings Landing however I can still see Renly being ambitious and stupid enough to still name himself the king and march towards kings landing. I think he’d petition stannis for aid but with Joffrey being Robs true born he’ll likely go to his aid sending his fleet to blackwater bay as a just incase renly does try to attack by sea. The battle of the blackwater pretty much goes the same way except Ned & Stannis would be in charge of preparing defences and not Tyrion and Renly is of course the one on the losing end. Joffrey and Sansa would get married and they’d be happy because Joffrey isn’t such a sadistic bastard with someone like Ned around to counsel him. All the stuff at the wall will happen as it did except The nights watch would have been getting so many recruits thanks to Neds respect for the Nights Watch and Rob Stark sending whatever small amounts of criminals they have. They’re not happy with letting the wildlings through the gates but Rob Stark pretty much backs Jon’s decision which could mean no more recruits if they kill Jon. Jon would stay at the wall as Lord commander but he would travel to winterfell briefly to talk to rob about the walkers and how he needs his help. Rob would send out as many ravens as he could (kings landing, Highgarden, Riverrun etc) in order to get help from the rest of the kingdom. Jaime who’s now Lord of casterly rock. (Tywin still died but most likely by the Martells hands or just old age) would immediately march north with his forces meeting the Tully’s at Riverrun along the way. Walder Frey would still most likely have his little schemes and try to marry off one of his daughters to them but due to the fact that Edmure is his liege lord that would not work too well lol. Other than the Dany storyline which I’d need to think of a little more that’s all I can think of.
Truth be told, at least in the book, I don't know if he was even thinking about Joffrey. Based on Sansa memory of the event, I would say that he went to her side pretty quickly after the riot started. She wasn't that that far behind them when everyone else arrived at the castle, and based on her memory the Hound spent some time hacking through people. Granted Sansa's memory is said to be faulty.
I agree it was tyrion who sent the hound so they could get jamie back now without joffrey around I think the trade for her would indeed happen and maybe some sort of peace with the north and lannisters since the one who called for ned stark's head Is dead but when dany does come for the crown I do believe as honerable as the north is they would continue to sit that one out and since Jamie doesn't brianne to find Sansa maybe she joins the lannister and without the events of the red wedding the hound successfully returns aria stark and perhaps joins with the north maybe but that's my theory based off of that
Hey just wondering why Sansa has to die at the beginning Surely the hound could have put Geoffery down and gone and rescued Sansa just like he did in the show Surely Geoffery being dead won’t really change Sandors actions towards Sansa
Theo Marcus I agree. In this scenario Jamie is still captured and they need Sansa to bring him back so Tyrion asks “where’s the Stark girl” where the hound would still find and rescue her
ConquestZero Sansa dying is absolutely not a given. In the books there actually IS another noble woman with them who gets raped by 50 men (according to the text, no idea who counted them), comes back and turns out to be pregnant. The Hound saying that Sansa would have her throat cut and left for dead doesn't mean that's actually what would've happened. There's a good chance that she would've survived either way, albeit not unharmed.
I disagree with the idea that Sansa would be killed. Once Joffrey was out of immediate danger, the Hound is going back for the Little Bird. Unfortunately the delay in his arrival means she'd have been raped at least two or three times by then. The Hound would rip the current raper off of her but the damage is done and considering how soon after she has her first period, there's a very good chance that she'd become pregnant from the raping. If she were lucky, she'd miscarry. If not, she'd have a bastard. However, this is where the Hound would be racked with guilt, and I could easily see him marrying Sansa to try to save her honor. Her marriage is of far less use if she's carrying a rape baby, so Tywin might agree to the Hound's idea. It still binds Sansa's claim to the North to House Lannister, as the Clegane words are literally 'Sworn to Lannister', and there is no stain on the Lannister name as there would be if a son of Tywin's married a woman raped by several lowborn men. If anything he'd think the Hound clever for using the situation to improve his place in life, although if he said it out loud, Tywin might have died at the Hound's hands.
Although I agree with you, Sansa would not have been pregnant had she lived if there is a level of realism for at least 2 reasons I can think of. It would still have completely ruined her marriage eligibility if she survived and removed her as an important character unless she marries a minor Lord for her claim.
Sansa would be "damaged goods" in the marriage market, but she's still (believed to be) the heir to Winterfell. That would mean she's still a valuable potential bride. The problem would be if Sansa WAS pregnant from her rape (unlikely but certainly not impossible), because then the existence of a bastard Waters or Snow would complicate any inheritance, though presumably she'd be given Moon Tea to prevent this from happening (either willingly or secretly). In either case, it would mean a delay of several months in any marriage plans for Sansa as they wouldn't want there to be any doubt as to who the father of her children was.
@@johnpotts8308 I think she would be given Moon Tea. Although she would be valuable, with her brother still alive and in open rebellion, she couldn't marry above a minor Lannister bannerman. I would wonder if it would be the Hound, but I think it's more likely Tywin would find a way for it to be a Lannister.
Lightning Bug I’m still only on the second book so I don’t really know how many Lannister’s there truly are. But I could imagine her being married off to Lancel for example assuming Lancel hasn’t already run off to join the faith militant of course.
@@lordliam9840 Within any given family, any additional children who are not in the direct line of succession are "less important" but still in the family and have the family name (Like if your grandparents are the current monarchs and your uncle is the first born son and next in line with 2 sons of his own, 2nd born uncle with a daughter, and then your father is the 3rd born son and you are the 2nd born son to him, you are quite removed from getting anything). If Tywin has any cousins (including the Lannisters of Lannisport) who are maybe a later son several times removed from the line of the Lannister succession, he could marry Sansa to that minor Lannister family member and keep the family name but deny Sansa the position of Wardenness in favor of himself or a chosen man.
No the North would have not allow Roost Bolton to rule the North without a Stark in Winterfell. So the rest of the Nobles in the North would have rallied around Rickon Stark. Who was not captured by the Umbers. Roost would still be murdered by Crazy Ramsay. The Umbers would switch side and John would be recruited to be Rickon's Champion. Battle of Bastards would still happen but it would be Rickon's forces led by John who would be victorious. Rickon becomes King but John is his regent. The Vale never gets involved. However, Ayra returns to Winterfell upon learning her Little Brother Rickon is now King in the North. As the battle for the North ends at the same time Daenerys becomes Queen. Rickon is informed of the threat of the White Walkers beyond the wall. Rickon appoints John to represent the North to her coronation. Rickon informs John to accept the Warden of North position. That he knows he could better prepare the North to the real Threat beyond the wall. John argues with Rickon but About this time Bran and Mirra show up. Also Sam from the Citadel appears too to tell John he must do as his brother commands. So taking Bran with him they travel overland with an army to wipe out the Frey's. However, getting to the Twins they encounter Edmund Tully controlling the twins. Edmund welcomes them warmly and relates how the old man himself had him released from the cells. He set him up as ruler then committed suicide after all his sons were poisoned by wine from Dorne. John realizing the Army was unnecessary told them to return to Winterfell to start preparations. Once they get to The God's eye near Harrenhal Bran relates to John his true Mother and Howland Reed appears with some Children of the Forest to confirm the Truth. At this point Bran leaves with Howland and the Children. John continues on to Kings Landing to swear fealty to the new Queen. John peculiarities intrigue the Queen once she learns he is of Targaryan birth the attraction is immediate. John does accept warden of the North as the title. the Queen decides to see the problem of the Walking Dead for herself. She accompanies John North to the Wall to meet with the Nightwatch bolstered by the Wildlings all Castles are now fully manned along the wall. It is now that a great Horn blast is heard in the Night. Bran sends John a Dream that Eastside by the Sea has the Wall collapsing. John tells his Queen that the war for the Dawn has started. John flies with Dany on Drogon since she only brought one Dragon. John informs ravens to abandon the Wall and regroup in Winterfell. Dany take John with her to see the Army of the Dead. She sees a massive storm where they are kept warm only by Drogon's breath. In a clearing of the Storm she glimpse the Red blade of a Sword destroying some of the Army of the dead. John and Dany use Drogon to clear the area and rescues Beric Dondarrion Thoros of Myr, and the Hound. Dany has seen enough and commands Drogon to Fly to Winterfell. The Night King sees the fleeing Dragon and sends an Ice spear toward the retreating Dragon. Dany sees it and orders Drogon to steeply dive which allows the spear to miss. Once in Winterfell preparations have been made under Ayra's and Rickon's instructions. The upper Lords closest to the Wall have already made it to Winterfell. Dany orders her Troops to board ships and head to Winterfell. She orders the Vale to close their borders encase Winterfell was destroyed. There was a fall back position.
Alternate scenario: Sansa is saved by the Sparrows and becomes their source of inside information for the future High Sparrow. Sansa, who is an old believer, outside the Faith of the Seven, becomes an important convert.
The whole riot many of us fans think if this riot event was all orchestrated by Littlefinger or Varys to attempt to take sansa or one of the lannister for some reason?
@@pancakesstudios6351 Especially considering Lannister soldiers had just sacked the city- it would have been a tinderbox of a situation... They aren’t especially loved, even by their own bannermen- Tywin terrorised the West into ‘respect’ when he destroyed the Reynes & Tarbecks- the only two acknowledged survivors had their tongues removed, & were put in the Silent Sisters. I think there would be _decades_ of simmering resentment; people thinking the Baratheons, as the closest related to the old dynasty- should have been raised to the throne - or that Ned Stark, who (lost both his father & brother at the hands of a tyrant) ended the bloodshed on *his* entry to the city, deserved the Crown. Essentially anyone _but_ the traitorous Lannisters, who got into the city under false pretences- & not only murdered the king treacherously, but also terrorised innocent citizens...
Welcome back! I was listening and I had some thoughts about Sansa being dead in this scenario. It's the biggest game changer. A dead Sansa means that: - Lysa probably wouldn't have died or if she had, it would have been much, much later. - The Boltons wouldn't have been able to marry Ramsay to Sansa which means that Theon would still probably STILL be Reek. - Theon not making it back to the Iron Islands means that Yara will probably die at Euron's hands or she would have to follow him since Theon had her back during elections. - There would have been NO Battle of the Bastards. Jon would have just went South. If Jon goes South that means that the Freefolk are sitting ducks and will get killed. No Jon up North means that the AoTD are coming in some shape or form. That would also mean that Jon and Dany would never meet, because there would be no reason for him to do so anymore. - Jon can STILL considered a NW runaway and get killed. - No Jon at The Wall or Winterfell means that Sam can't get him the message about the Dragonglass at Dragonstone, eventually. - Arya would be on her way to kill Cersei in King's Landing. - Bran's life is in danger since he can't go back to Winterfell and he's the last male Stark heir alive aside from Rickon. - Brienne's story line is done as she has nothing else to do after getting Jamie back to KL. - Tyrion would stay at King's Landing where he would eventually perish at the hands of Dany, but I feel that Tyrion would have been better prepared to intercept her since she's coming for his family. So yeah, Sansa dying changes a LOT in the show. Her survival is essential to contributing to the events that have transpired thus far.
if i'm not Mistaken is Olenna not like 5-10 Years Older than Tywin...i know Tywin is in his Late 60's and this is based around a Medieval time Period where men MOSTLY took Younger wifes due to them being more fertile..
@@Basedbateman97 in some important families, that aspect was complicated if the bride was from a powerful family or had a lot of money/lands: Henry VIII married Catherine of Aragon, who was six years older than him (and his brother’s widow). Or if we’re going even further back, Henry II married Eleanor of Aquitaine, who was 11 years older than him AND divorced, but was heiress to vast territories near his own
One thing to note is that if Tyrion is leading the defense against Daenarys he will likely use the same tactics-anti dragon ballistae, etc... As well as rallying the lords against a foreign invader. Thus in that scenario Tyrion's mind is being used to defend the Lannister hold on the throne not overthrow it. Which I think puts Tommen's regime in a far better chance of winning.
Good video but I could almost see Euron trying to side with the North with the proposal of winning independence for the North and Iron Islands. I could also see Littlefinger paying more attention to the Iron Islands since in this scenario Dany and Cersei are much more evenly matched and Littlefinger would want to prepare for a war against the victor. Or maybe Euron has Baelon, Yara, and Theon killed in a way that looks like an accident or like an assassination carried out by the Lannisters. Then marrying Ellaria Sand (or one of the sand snakes) and joining with Dany that way. I would love to see a video on "What if Robb had let Catelyn go home?" (instead of meeting with Renly). Would he then go himself, or maybe send Lord Kastark? Would Baelish still be sent to Renly's camp?
Dorne would be independent again,maybe the other kingdons as well.The realm would bleed much more and the great sickness would be even worst for this Westeros
And The roles would have Been reversed, meaning the Targs would be in Exile staging many failed Attacks on Westeros.. but i think the Fighting would be more Brutal than with the Black Fyres with the Role turned around, i could see 2-3 Targ Invasions where they would have more support than The Blackfyres would have had (Paramount Support) and the Great spring Sickness would also be a Big Killer.. but we can only think
So glad to see another of your "What If" videos!!! You were talking about Theon and Yara from the season 7 storyline, but if Sansa is dead, she never goes up to Winterfell. If Sansa never makes it to Winterfell, what makes you think that Theon would actually escape Ramsey of his own volition? The only reason he did was because he was trying to protect Sansa. He'd still be there, Jon probably would've either lost Battle of the Bastards or never bothered to fight in the first place. If that's the case, probably wouldn't have ended up as King in the North, so Daenerys wouldn't care about him at all.
20:30 but Sansa died during the commoner riots right? And wouldn’t that mean Jon loses the battle of the bastards too, either way it’s an interesting theory
Rickon would not be turned over by the Umbers if there was NO Sansa married to Ramsay. They would switch sides and oppose Ramsay after he murders Roost.
Tyrion would interact with Olena more in this what if than in the actual story & I think she'd give him high praise for keeping up with her. Perhaps a line like, "You truly are the son of Tywin".
I think you might be the first to question why Highgarden was instantly taken by the Lannisters. Loras was considered to be one of the best fighters and could not have come from a culture that did not revere such men. Highgarden was rich, with a large army, plenty of food, and a strong castle. Jaimie told Olenna that they'd "fought well" but taking such a castle would have taken months and the besiegers would have been vulnerable to attack from the rear.
Sadly, I don't think Tyrion remains hand of the king after Tywin's death in this scenario. He was so unfairly hated by Cersei that I think she would have done something to make sure he wouldn't have remained hand (despite he being the best for the job). I think it probably would end up going to Kevin
Hey @TheBattProductions did you ever notice the the main people who orchestrated the Red wedding (Roose Bolton, Tywin Lanister, and Walder Fray) all three died in the way the people in the red wedding died. Roose was stabbed in the heart and even betrayed like did to Robb. Tywin was killed by a crossbow. And Walder Fray had his throat cut.
ooooh intresting! There's a theory that he was supposed to be a she called Visenya; loads would change like she couldn't join the nights watch but she couldn't really be in a political marriage ANND the relationship with Cat would be intresting
Can’t imagine the Tyrells ever finding Euron being more appealing. They wouldn’t abide Joffrey and Euron is like a much more calculating, brutal Joffrey that probably wouldn’t have the insecurities that enabled Margaery to have at least some control over Joffrey.
I’m just now finding your channel and I love it! Something I’ve wondered is What if Tyrion was a Targaryen? I was excited about that possibility! Do a video on this!
Absurd text wall of a note: Hound wouldn't leave, though he WOULD likely be the reason Joffrey dies, moving to grab Sansa just as he did before, except this time, the City Watch leaves a hole as the Hound breaks off, and ker-stab. It'll be a few minutes before Hound even knows what happened, so Sandor still saves Sansa, as that was one of his odd priorities of the time. The only reason the Hound bailed before was because Joffrey, *specifically*, tried to force the Hound to rush toward the Wildfire. An unobstructed Tyrion isn't making that play, instead assigning the Hound to protect Tommen in the throne room, which Clegane's got no problem doing, since that is in the opposite direction of fire. Even if he does decide to dip out, this time, he's got the ability to ACTUALLY get Sansa out, since he wouldn't have to sneak away as a deserter (I mean, he is, but no one knows that yet.), and Sansa doesn't have to fear a reprisal from Joffrey, so she can just... go home. This changes a couple of things: Arya is going a different way after Harrenhal, and this alters A LOT. She falls in with the Brotherhood Without Banners, gets away, and while she still goes into that inn, this time, it's Sansa that blows her cover. The Hound is coming up roses here, cause at this point, he has BOTH Stark girls, and no impediments to Riverrun, since Tommen wouldn't order him hunted down, nor would Tyrion. Sandor is able to use horses instead of walking most the way, and thus, saves BOATLOADS of time, and doesn't have to avoid Lannister patrols. Even if he runs into them, Sansa can just lie, or feed a lie to the Hound, and say that Tywin has seen fit to return the Stark girls in exchange for Ser Jaime, and potential peace with the North. This is important, because that means Arya and Sansa make it to Riverrun. The Hound asks for position/coin for bringing them both back alive, and I mean, fair point, he's going to get that, likely becoming bodyguard to them. I mean, Catelyn was willing to essentially give up just about anything to get them back. This *also* alters the War of Five Kings. Renly's dead, Stannis is licking his wounds, and the Greyjoys are mostly just raiding, really. That leaves the events at Kings Landing, where the death of Joffrey, and coronation of Tommen, leave some odd vacancies, and it's... a bit of a mess. Before, Joffrey died AFTER the Red Wedding. Dying before changes the scenario, along with Sansa and Arya no longer being hostages, changes the entire outlay. As far as common knowledge is concerned, the Starks just got a MASSIVE morale boost from Sansa and Arya being alive, and the Hound's defection. Littlefinger's plans are shot ALL to hell, though I suppose in technical, a new one lays open before him: He is Lord Baelish now, and, named as a Lord, this is still a step up the ladder. Now, he has an interesting future before him, either still trying to play his hand in Kings Landing, OR, he could simply... switch teams, striking a deal with Robb to bring the forces of the Vale, and the forces of his lands in Riverrun to their side. This means Robb makes up his loss of the Karstarks without Walder, and Littlefinger's spies would ferret out the Red Wedding, likely picking out Bolton for a traitor early. Then again, if Littlefinger comes on, and with the Stark girls having been returned, Bolton wouldn't be so keen to take the Lannister gold. Robb is winning every battle, and while yes, he lost the Karstarks, he just gained the former Master of Coin in Petyr Baelish.
What IF Tommen was the first born. What would happen with Sansa? With Ned? With Nymeria and Lady? With Arya? Would Ned still seek the truth? Would there still be a war with Renly and Stannis? Would the battle of Blackwater Bay still take place? It affects a lot and I think if tommen was the first born instead of Joffrey, would make for an interesting video :)
At the end, you said Sansa comes out of the tunnels after the battle of Winterfell. Didn’t you say Sansa died during the riot? How would her death effect the battle of the bastards, does it happened at all? Does Theon even brake Ramsay’s hold over him? What does Littlefinger do in this Scenario? I recommend a sequel video focusing on Sansa’s death from this scenario.
Not sure if youve done this one before, but what if Robert Baratheon found out his children werent legitmate before he died? Either before he got injured by the boar or by Ned on his death bed and writes someone else as his heir. Perhaps there would be no war at all but im sure it would still cause alllll kinds of drama/schemes by the Lannisters, etc
8:56 I actually found some book evidence that suggests that oberyn actually knew about the poisoning. The morning of the wedding, Tyrion gave Joffrey a book about the lives of 4 kings and Joffrey being the little shit he is destroys the book. Oberyn talks to Tyrion after saying that the book was a magnificent gift that the king would have been wise to read, he then mentions a hand of the king who poisoned his nephew in order to steal the crown. That story seems remarkably similar to what Tyrion waded accused of and was told by oberyn the day of the purple wedding
@Ívarr hinn Beinlausi this is a little late but curious I don't think we would have a red wedding because he would never go back to the freys for men after losing the karstark army since he has the golden company... And balon wouldn't rebel with Robb having the golden company
Nope. I used to think he was a good military leader but a poor king but after rewatching the season and the book especially. I think he just sucked. He won battles yes but you can win battles but loose the war due to poor military decisions which he did.
I mean the Tyrells were still plotting when Tywin was alive. He was way more stable then Tyrion ever was and a lot more bright so I don't think the Tyrells would have stopped plotting + if Daenerys is the queen, there is nothing stopping her from just taking s dragon north and defeating the Starks/Jon if he doesn't bend the knee since she basically had the rest of the kingdoms +++ I don't think Jon would be even in power in the north with Sansa dead
katerina petrova that’s after the rebellion correct? If so I doubt it would have been won in their benefit so most likely exile or a stripping of power
Well, for starters they would become hostages of the crown, that's for sure, Elia would be confined to her apparments and most likely wouldn't be able allowed to see her daughter much, if at all, she was known for her frail health so she might end up dying eventually anyway, and Rhaenys may not even be allowed to say goodbye to her mother, Cersei is definitely of being that cruel, kinda like Catherine of Aragorn and Mary Tudor, Rhaenys, who I see being raised by Stannis at Dragonstone, because Robert can't stand too look at Rhaegar's dragonspawn all the time, would either be forced to become a Septa, or married to Joffrey, either way it would prevent the Targaryen loyalists from launching a rebellion in her name, if Rhaenys becomes a Septa that's it, she's out of the game, however, if she marries Joffrey and becomes queen that would be very interesting, especially once Dany arrives in Westeros, I sense second Dance of the Dragons becuase both girls would feel entitled to have the throne because they both have suffered a lot, and it's their birthright, Rhaenys actually would've a better claim than Dany, another alternative match to Rhaenys would be Stannis himself, though this would require for Selyse to die some time before after having Shireen, because Rhaenys would be Stannis ward it's very likely she is at Dragonstone when Ned reveals the truth about Cercei's kids and shit goes down, wife or ward Rhaenys' would gain Stannis Dorne's support in the War of the Five Kings, and because it was Selyse who brought Melisandre into their household this means no Lord of Light stuff, wich puts Stannis in a better situation with the Faith of the Seven and its followers, if Rhaenys gives Stannis a son, this would not only be the male heir Stannis always wantee but also a Baratheon and Targaryen child to unite both sides, imagine if the baby comes out silver haired, both of his parents have Targ blood after all, this would put Rhaenys in a better position than Dany, who is allegedly barren, and if Rhaenys were to get a dragon, damn
8:30 I find hard to believe that Sansa's death would not stir suspicion about Arya within the Starks. Cersei just lost her favourite kid and without Sansa she would have hurt Arya just to have someone suffer as much as she did, that is if they do not think Arya escaped during the riot. Ok, let me explain. So Ned was well aware of what Syrio was giving Arya as training exercises, he probably told Catelyn about it, and she would tell Robb that she might've escaped. Not only that, but Littlefinger would be hardpress to find a convincing story as to why or how he knows for sure they still have Arya, after all, Catelyn knows her daughters 16:11 While I think that the Martells would ally with Dany in a heartbeat due to Rhaegar and Ellara being married, what does this means for Myrcella? After all she was sent to Dorne as an olive branch to the Martells. I honestly think Myrcella would become a player in the game of thrones and the war at large. At first she would try to convince Tommen to stand up to their mother saying that if he delivers the Mountain there's a posibility of Dorne joining a bussiness-only alliance against Stannis and the Starks. Maybe even suggest they trade kids as wards once both Margaery and herself give birth. However, if Dany enters the picture I can see Myrcella doing two things to safeguard the life of his little brother: 1) She'll Tommen to bend the knee to her as the queen as she has the support of Dorne, this due to Dorne thinking that the eldest child should rule regardless of gender, and she will bend the knee to Dany. 2) Sent a raven to High Garden reminding them of how they got their house seat in the first place, by bending the knee to a Targaryen. Even going as far as implying that Dany having friends in the Free cities, has already struck a better deal for the Iron Bank than Cersei, or that Tommen is already on board.
Oberyn wasn't going to leave, he had a seat on the counsel. If Tywin would die he would be blamed, or Tyrion would be blamed. Then he would face the Mountain.
I don't think Sansa would die regardless, The Hound had a soft spot for Sansa I doubt he would let her be killed. Also as cruel as Cersei is she and Tyrion deeply care about Jamie. Neither one is letting their hostage die. Also commoners talk. remember the one peasent who said Cersei saw his junk?, word that Sansa was raped and killed would make it back to Rob and Catetyln.
If this happened, Jack Gleeson's talent would have been cut short. Then again, considering how toxic fan responses were about the character, he might have received a lot less hate and still be willing to act.
Well one thing to remember is that Tyrion is the one who sends the Hound to go get Sansa, good chance he'll do it anyway even if Joffrey is dying. Tyrion would still be thinking about Jaime and the need to have Sansa around in order to get him back, plus he never really liked Joffrey anyway, so he probably would send somebody, if not the Hound then one of the other Kingsguard, so in all likelihood Sansa would still be alive.
Honestly? I could see the Lannisters losing King’s Landing in this scenario, their forces were already demoralized, but Joffrey dying before the Battle of Black Water even happens could lead to mass desertion, Tywin and the Tyrells would find themselves besieging the city they had just planned to save from Stannis.
1) missande would be dead as Tyrion saved her in the harpy attack at the fighting pit 2) Dorn would side with Tommen as their prince was engaged to Marsala, AND Dorn was the only land never defeated by dragons. Danny would have a harder time than you think.
Dany might be dead because Bariston Selmy wouldn't have been there to save her from the scorpion in this scenario. The only reason he leaves is because of Joffrey. But he leaves *after* the riot. If Joffrey is killed during the riot, Tommen would be the king. And Bariston would have no reason to leave King's Landing
Honestly I read the title and my immediate thought was: fucking good. I love this theory so much more than the actual show honestly. Upset about Sansa and who knows what would have happened with Battle of the Bastards.
I’d disagree that they would take kings landing, I mean those ballista were proven to be effective , and since quibern and Tyrion are around it’s likely that they could repel the dragons since it’s shown 1 hit is basically fatal.
Jaime wouldn't be going to Dorne, in this scenerio. The only reason he left to Dorne was because Ellaria wanted Myrcella dead because of Oberyn's death, but Oberyn didn't die, so Jaime would have stayed in Kings Landing.
It’s hard to imagine a scenario where just Joffrey dies but no one else is killed by the enraged crowd as well… Surely Sansa as well of other notables would have perished as well
![NISAMANEE - TADA (ท้าดา) [ OFFICIAL MV ]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/hcQHEPMmJpU/mqdefault.jpg)
![[UNCUT] เก็บ "สจ.โต้ง" เอี่ยวมาเฟีย รู้ตัวคนบงการ ก่อนสั่งลั่นไก I คนดังนั่งเคลียร์ I 13 ธ.ค.67](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/o-J_p62D40w/mqdefault.jpg)
whichever commoner killed Joffrey should be knighted
Knighted? No. They should be made a Saint.
Fuck that, they should be given land and lordship
Doubtful. Cersei would still be queen regent and would "suggest" the man be sent to the wall or be killed, and even if he went to the wall he'd probably end up being killed along the way. As for Sansa, it's plausible Littlefinger set up the riot to steal her. Now their is a chance she could be raped in the commotion, but if she wasn't they would probably have her betrothed to Tommen to keep her in court
Make him Lord of harrenhal
Eric Cartman made lord of the reach and casterly rock
What IF, Roose Bolton escorted Jamie Lannister and Brianne of Tarthe back to Robb Stark
I like this one!😉
Pity he was poisoned by his enemies
Essentially if he wasn’t betrayed
I think Roose would've had a hand in a lot of things changing...
@@lildubuoy yeah but it was going to whoever tywin “gave” winter fell too
14:05 Yep the Lannister attack of Highgarden in Season 7 broke me. It was that exact moment that made me realise the Game of Thrones I loved was dead and the writing had become horrendous. There was just so much wrong about a depleted exhausted Lannister army being able to teleport across Westeros to instantly take one of the strongest fortresses in the world with no siege equipment, and faced zero resistance from the Tyrell's 80,000 strong army that managed to come out of the War of 5 Kings unscathed. It irks me to this day
Took you that long?
For me it was at the very end of Season 4 when they cut the Tysha reveal
It wouldn't take a lot of justification to fix it. Randal Tarly was the Reach's best commander, and the Tyrels are not all that popular with their bannermen. Most of Highgarden's defenders would either desert, or betray Olenna. Who is an old woman whose line was wiped out, the Tyrel family was a lost cause to the Reachmen. And quite honestly, the Tyrels suck at fighting. Yes, Loras and his brothers are good swordsmen and jousters, but the males of the family are rather boneheaded, and afraid to commit. Always hedging their bets. It's how they rose to power, selling out the Gardeners to Aegon. It's how Mace Tyrel kept his head after the war, by not making things personal with Robert, and only making a half-hearted attempt to take Storm's End. Olenna and Margaery were schemers, and it's part of why the Reach houses are disloyal. They had the money, the food, and the men, but for the most part they're a diplomatic family. All show, no spine.
@@cdcdrr To an extent I agree with your comment. But the writing is still stupid because Randall Tarly was one of the Targaryen's most loyal bannerman who fought for them through Robert's rebellion. Why would he suddenly hate Daenerys? Calling her a foreign bitch when she was born in Westeros. That makes no sense. And part of why Randall is loyal is because he takes his oaths seriously. Betraying the Tyrells is no small feat or thing to do. His character motivation isn't there and it doesn't make sense in the context of joining the losing side when Tyrells are in great positions of power. Also the idea that the Tyrells aren't fighters is still really dumb. As one of the richest houses in the realm, Tyrell soldiers would be as well equipped with armour and weapons as anyone, which is a huge advantage. And also, the entire Tyrell house was started by an ancient Tyrell warrior who was an unreal fighter and saved the Gardener king or something. So the house of Tyrells comes from fighters, and they have lots of fighters in the modern day. And it's dumb to just say 80,000 men couldn't fight very well because they're all lovers and not fighters
@@cdcdrrthat's where it's wrong
Margergys mother is a Hightower, olenna is a redwyne and her daughter is married to a redwyne, rowans are married to redwynes,
So many houses are directly or indirectly connected to tyrells one way or another
Im Reading the book right now and Robert just died. What if they followed Renly’s plan? Getting the kids away from cercie and Ned and Renly beeing king untill Jofrey comes of age.
Anime Lover spoilers
Randly being king wouldn't fly because he was the youngest. There would of been a war regarless after Robert died. . . . There was to many contenders.
@melly Mel I meant king like a regentsy(?) hope that is what it's called in English
@@animelover-nicole231 ekk.. . I deleted what I said cause I just remembered you haven't finished reading the book ☺
Anime Lover sort of did that already
What if Daenerys Targaryen or her brother knew about Jon Snow
katerina petrova ooh that’d be cool
@Ívarr hinn Beinlausi he isn't in the free cities how would viserys kill him hes in winterfell
Viserys would try to have him killed.
What if Robert had sent Joffrey to Winterfell to be fostered by Ned? Would that have changed Joffrey for the better? And what would've happened if Cersei had married someone other than Robert, maybe Oberyn Martell or even Ned Stark?
I don't really think it would of changed him, how he acted was certainly partly due to the terrible parenting but also just because of genes, he was after all a product of incest.
i disagree, I think Ned could have changed him for the better, more like a theon thing, maybe he would be good in winterfell but once he gets any hint of power he changes back to being a little bitch
This was a kid who was proud that he tore the insides of a cat and took out the unborn kitten to show his father when he was young. There was just something wrong with him because both his siblings turned out to be decent people, the parenting alone wasn’t the issue.
Ned married before the end of roberts rebellion the time lines wouldnt make sense
@@lauracatherine9925 no it's pretty much already stated that he was a mad man due to his genetics. If anything Joffrey being fostered in Winterfell may have made the relationship with the Starks and Lannisters falling apart quicker.
What if balon allied with Robb instead if attacking him
What if tommen was a wise king
What if lysa allied with Robb
What if jon stayed with the wildlings
What if Robb and marcella were betrothed instead of joffrey and sansa
If balon or Lysa allied with Rob, the northerners wouldve just straight up won the war
they still could lose to the Lanister Tyrelle (probably also martelle) alliance
@@talra81 why would the martelles get involved
well because the Martelles are married with the Lanisters and allied with them.
@@talra81 yeah but they hate the lanisters , they married into them and stayed neutral while Robb was losing , if he was winning they might have even joined him
What of joffrey sticks with marrying sansa instead of margery
Lulu Broich I’m guessing the Tyrells would betroth Tommen to Margaery and still poison Joffrey at his wedding with Sansa to make Tommen and Margaery King and Queen, or they would poison Sansa and keep her out of the way and lead to Joffrey marrying Margaery and still being poisoned. I think the first is more credible though.
What if tywin lannister took the iron throne instead of robert
I don't think the kingdom would of supported that. . . . .
yeet
@leonpride Dorne would also most likely have the Tyrell’s supporting them effectively ending the siege on storms end and I think Rob and Ned would also have joined the Dornish although the Martells would still most likely sort of blame Rob for the deaths of their sister and her children they’d enter a really uneasy alliance. With war still raging and the Tyrell’s being quite ambitious I can imagine Tywin trying to find a way to pay them off to Join their cause you’ll be the kings hand, you’ll have this special title and that special title. I can see Tywin offering them whatever they wanted whilst still holding them on a very short leash. Although even if he had convinced the Tyrell’s to join forces unless the Tyrell’s attack from within the siege camp I don’t think it’d be enough to change the battle in any considerable way. If it does come to kings landing being taken by force once more I can see rob coming out as the winner. He’d allow Tywin to remain warden of the west in exchange for his daughters hand and maybe a few other lower Lannister’s would be taken as “guests” at kings landing. I think Jaime would be banished from the kings guard though. Killing Jaime for regicide would cause even more problems down the road. With Jaime kicked out of the kings guard he’ll most likely be sent back to casterly rock affectively ending the whole invent thing with him and Cersei for a long time. Due to the lack of Jaime Cersei would pretty much be forced into having Roberts babies. Let’s say all three are born the same except they’re actually Roberts children (black of hair) they’d be no need to kill Jon Arryn because there’s no secret for him to know. But let’s say around the same time as the TV show and books he dies of actual natural causes. Tywin sends Jaime to escort Cersei and the king to winterfell as commander of the Lannister forces he and Cersei do the incest thing bran catches them still falls. Ned goes with Rob south serves as warden of the north nothing wrong with Jon Arryns death but Ned still does a little poking of the bear. Rob still dies by the boar and tells Ned he’ll rule until Joffrey is old enough. With there being no Cersei Ned I know you have sex with your brother scene I know the kids aren’t Roberts there would be no need for Ned to rock up to the throne room with the gold cloaks and whatever was left of his household guard. He presents the letter to Ser Barristan just as he did in the show but Cersei still manages to twist things so that Joffrey remains on the iron throne without a regent. Joffrey agrees to keep Ned as his hand of the king though. Rob would obviously stay in winterfell no need for him to march south if there’s nothing wrong meaning the north stays completely united. Obviously because Joffrey is the true rightful heir they’d be no reason for Stannis to attack Kings Landing however I can still see Renly being ambitious and stupid enough to still name himself the king and march towards kings landing. I think he’d petition stannis for aid but with Joffrey being Robs true born he’ll likely go to his aid sending his fleet to blackwater bay as a just incase renly does try to attack by sea. The battle of the blackwater pretty much goes the same way except Ned & Stannis would be in charge of preparing defences and not Tyrion and Renly is of course the one on the losing end. Joffrey and Sansa would get married and they’d be happy because Joffrey isn’t such a sadistic bastard with someone like Ned around to counsel him. All the stuff at the wall will happen as it did except The nights watch would have been getting so many recruits thanks to Neds respect for the Nights Watch and Rob Stark sending whatever small amounts of criminals they have. They’re not happy with letting the wildlings through the gates but Rob Stark pretty much backs Jon’s decision which could mean no more recruits if they kill Jon. Jon would stay at the wall as Lord commander but he would travel to winterfell briefly to talk to rob about the walkers and how he needs his help. Rob would send out as many ravens as he could (kings landing, Highgarden, Riverrun etc) in order to get help from the rest of the kingdom. Jaime who’s now Lord of casterly rock. (Tywin still died but most likely by the Martells hands or just old age) would immediately march north with his forces meeting the Tully’s at Riverrun along the way. Walder Frey would still most likely have his little schemes and try to marry off one of his daughters to them but due to the fact that Edmure is his liege lord that would not work too well lol. Other than the Dany storyline which I’d need to think of a little more that’s all I can think of.
i member then the world would be a better place
What about Ned
I think the Hound would have gone to save Sansa first. Probably giving Joffrey to another kingsguard and rescuing her right away
Truth be told, at least in the book, I don't know if he was even thinking about Joffrey. Based on Sansa memory of the event, I would say that he went to her side pretty quickly after the riot started. She wasn't that that far behind them when everyone else arrived at the castle, and based on her memory the Hound spent some time hacking through people. Granted Sansa's memory is said to be faulty.
I agree it was tyrion who sent the hound so they could get jamie back now without joffrey around I think the trade for her would indeed happen and maybe some sort of peace with the north and lannisters since the one who called for ned stark's head Is dead but when dany does come for the crown I do believe as honerable as the north is they would continue to sit that one out and since Jamie doesn't brianne to find Sansa maybe she joins the lannister and without the events of the red wedding the hound successfully returns aria stark and perhaps joins with the north maybe but that's my theory based off of that
Hey just wondering why Sansa has to die at the beginning
Surely the hound could have put Geoffery down and gone and rescued Sansa just like he did in the show
Surely Geoffery being dead won’t really change Sandors actions towards Sansa
Theo Marcus I agree. In this scenario Jamie is still captured and they need Sansa to bring him back so Tyrion asks “where’s the Stark girl” where the hound would still find and rescue her
jofferry is king
when he got badly injured and dying there is no way he will go for sansa
ConquestZero
Sansa dying is absolutely not a given. In the books there actually IS another noble woman with them who gets raped by 50 men (according to the text, no idea who counted them), comes back and turns out to be pregnant. The Hound saying that Sansa would have her throat cut and left for dead doesn't mean that's actually what would've happened. There's a good chance that she would've survived either way, albeit not unharmed.
What if Arya choose to kill Cersei in Season 7
Nice.
I disagree with the idea that Sansa would be killed. Once Joffrey was out of immediate danger, the Hound is going back for the Little Bird. Unfortunately the delay in his arrival means she'd have been raped at least two or three times by then. The Hound would rip the current raper off of her but the damage is done and considering how soon after she has her first period, there's a very good chance that she'd become pregnant from the raping. If she were lucky, she'd miscarry. If not, she'd have a bastard. However, this is where the Hound would be racked with guilt, and I could easily see him marrying Sansa to try to save her honor. Her marriage is of far less use if she's carrying a rape baby, so Tywin might agree to the Hound's idea. It still binds Sansa's claim to the North to House Lannister, as the Clegane words are literally 'Sworn to Lannister', and there is no stain on the Lannister name as there would be if a son of Tywin's married a woman raped by several lowborn men. If anything he'd think the Hound clever for using the situation to improve his place in life, although if he said it out loud, Tywin might have died at the Hound's hands.
Although I agree with you, Sansa would not have been pregnant had she lived if there is a level of realism for at least 2 reasons I can think of. It would still have completely ruined her marriage eligibility if she survived and removed her as an important character unless she marries a minor Lord for her claim.
Sansa would be "damaged goods" in the marriage market, but she's still (believed to be) the heir to Winterfell. That would mean she's still a valuable potential bride. The problem would be if Sansa WAS pregnant from her rape (unlikely but certainly not impossible), because then the existence of a bastard Waters or Snow would complicate any inheritance, though presumably she'd be given Moon Tea to prevent this from happening (either willingly or secretly). In either case, it would mean a delay of several months in any marriage plans for Sansa as they wouldn't want there to be any doubt as to who the father of her children was.
@@johnpotts8308 I think she would be given Moon Tea. Although she would be valuable, with her brother still alive and in open rebellion, she couldn't marry above a minor Lannister bannerman. I would wonder if it would be the Hound, but I think it's more likely Tywin would find a way for it to be a Lannister.
Lightning Bug I’m still only on the second book so I don’t really know how many Lannister’s there truly are. But I could imagine her being married off to Lancel for example assuming Lancel hasn’t already run off to join the faith militant of course.
@@lordliam9840 Within any given family, any additional children who are not in the direct line of succession are "less important" but still in the family and have the family name (Like if your grandparents are the current monarchs and your uncle is the first born son and next in line with 2 sons of his own, 2nd born uncle with a daughter, and then your father is the 3rd born son and you are the 2nd born son to him, you are quite removed from getting anything). If Tywin has any cousins (including the Lannisters of Lannisport) who are maybe a later son several times removed from the line of the Lannister succession, he could marry Sansa to that minor Lannister family member and keep the family name but deny Sansa the position of Wardenness in favor of himself or a chosen man.
But if Sansa dies. Jon would have lost the battle of the bastards. That means that Ramsey would be warden of the north.
Well littlefinger wouldnt have given him sansa and he didnt want him in power in the north
Maybe Jon wouldn't have fought at all without Sansa pushing for it. He might have just gone south instead.
@@karlijns4816 that is true
Sansa is the one who was for taking Winterfell back from Boltons, Jon likely wouldnt have considered it if Sansa hadnt brought it up
No the North would have not allow Roost Bolton to rule the North without a Stark in Winterfell. So the rest of the Nobles in the North would have rallied around Rickon Stark. Who was not captured by the Umbers. Roost would still be murdered by Crazy Ramsay. The Umbers would switch side and John would be recruited to be Rickon's Champion. Battle of Bastards would still happen but it would be Rickon's forces led by John who would be victorious. Rickon becomes King but John is his regent. The Vale never gets involved. However, Ayra returns to Winterfell upon learning her Little Brother Rickon is now King in the North. As the battle for the North ends at the same time Daenerys becomes Queen. Rickon is informed of the threat of the White Walkers beyond the wall. Rickon appoints John to represent the North to her coronation.
Rickon informs John to accept the Warden of North position. That he knows he could better prepare the North to the real Threat beyond the wall. John argues with Rickon but About this time Bran and Mirra show up. Also Sam from the Citadel appears too to tell John he must do as his brother commands.
So taking Bran with him they travel overland with an army to wipe out the Frey's. However, getting to the Twins they encounter Edmund Tully controlling the twins. Edmund welcomes them warmly and relates how the old man himself had him released from the cells. He set him up as ruler then committed suicide after all his sons were poisoned by wine from Dorne. John realizing the Army was unnecessary told them to return to Winterfell to start preparations. Once they get to The God's eye near Harrenhal Bran relates to John his true Mother and Howland Reed appears with some Children of the Forest to confirm the Truth. At this point Bran leaves with Howland and the Children. John continues on to Kings Landing to swear fealty to the new Queen.
John peculiarities intrigue the Queen once she learns he is of Targaryan birth the attraction is immediate. John does accept warden of the North as the title. the Queen decides to see the problem of the Walking Dead for herself. She accompanies John North to the Wall to meet with the Nightwatch bolstered by the Wildlings all Castles are now fully manned along the wall. It is now that a great Horn blast is heard in the Night. Bran sends John a Dream that Eastside by the Sea has the Wall collapsing. John tells his Queen that the war for the Dawn has started. John flies with Dany on Drogon since she only brought one Dragon.
John informs ravens to abandon the Wall and regroup in Winterfell. Dany take John with her to see the Army of the Dead. She sees a massive storm where they are kept warm only by Drogon's breath. In a clearing of the Storm she glimpse the Red blade of a Sword destroying some of the Army of the dead. John and Dany use Drogon to clear the area and rescues Beric Dondarrion Thoros of Myr, and the Hound. Dany has seen enough and commands Drogon to Fly to Winterfell. The Night King sees the fleeing Dragon and sends an Ice spear toward the retreating Dragon. Dany sees it and orders Drogon to steeply dive which allows the spear to miss.
Once in Winterfell preparations have been made under Ayra's and Rickon's instructions. The upper Lords closest to the Wall have already made it to Winterfell. Dany orders her Troops to board ships and head to Winterfell. She orders the Vale to close their borders encase Winterfell was destroyed. There was a fall back position.
You're back!!! missed your content so much
Alternate scenario: Sansa is saved by the Sparrows and becomes their source of inside information for the future High Sparrow. Sansa, who is an old believer, outside the Faith of the Seven, becomes an important convert.
Dany would have gotten killed, Jorah only goes back to Mereen because of Tyrion. He wouldn't have gotten greyscale though.
The whole riot many of us fans think if this riot event was all orchestrated by Littlefinger or Varys to attempt to take sansa or one of the lannister for some reason?
But what about Hotpie? You didn't cover his storyline!
George said in an interveiw that hotpie is the key to everything.
You said Sansa died then she’s back at the end
I noticed that too.
She would be Lady Stoneheart 😂😂😂
@@sarcasticsid5589 Lady Stoneheart junior
What if rhaella (daenerys mum) survived? What if tywin took the throne - got jaime to keep it?
The people wouldn't be happy about it
@@pancakesstudios6351
Especially considering Lannister soldiers had just sacked the city- it would have been a tinderbox of a situation... They aren’t especially loved, even by their own bannermen- Tywin terrorised the West into ‘respect’ when he destroyed the Reynes & Tarbecks- the only two acknowledged survivors had their tongues removed, & were put in the Silent Sisters.
I think there would be _decades_ of simmering resentment; people thinking the Baratheons, as the closest related to the old dynasty- should have been raised to the throne - or that Ned Stark, who (lost both his father & brother at the hands of a tyrant) ended the bloodshed on *his* entry to the city, deserved the Crown.
Essentially anyone _but_ the traitorous Lannisters, who got into the city under false pretences- & not only murdered the king treacherously, but also terrorised innocent citizens...
Welcome back! I was listening and I had some thoughts about Sansa being dead in this scenario. It's the biggest game changer. A dead Sansa means that:
- Lysa probably wouldn't have died or if she had, it would have been much, much later.
- The Boltons wouldn't have been able to marry Ramsay to Sansa which means that Theon would still probably STILL be Reek.
- Theon not making it back to the Iron Islands means that Yara will probably die at Euron's hands or she would have to follow him since Theon had her back during elections.
- There would have been NO Battle of the Bastards. Jon would have just went South. If Jon goes South that means that the Freefolk are sitting ducks and will get killed. No Jon up North means that the AoTD are coming in some shape or form. That would also mean that Jon and Dany would never meet, because there would be no reason for him to do so anymore.
- Jon can STILL considered a NW runaway and get killed.
- No Jon at The Wall or Winterfell means that Sam can't get him the message about the Dragonglass at Dragonstone, eventually.
- Arya would be on her way to kill Cersei in King's Landing.
- Bran's life is in danger since he can't go back to Winterfell and he's the last male Stark heir alive aside from Rickon.
- Brienne's story line is done as she has nothing else to do after getting Jamie back to KL.
- Tyrion would stay at King's Landing where he would eventually perish at the hands of Dany, but I feel that Tyrion would have been better prepared to intercept her since she's coming for his family.
So yeah, Sansa dying changes a LOT in the show. Her survival is essential to contributing to the events that have transpired thus far.
What if Joffrey kills Cersei after she slaps him on the face!
That would be beautiful justice
Cersei would execute the hound immediately if he failed to protect Joffrey
What If Suggestion: What if Tyrion didn't turn down the passage that led to the Hand's chamber? Essentially, what if Tyrion didn't kill Tywin?
Our favourite character, the tower of the hand, survives
With Tywin alive, no way High Sparrow gets power
Tywin still dies. Theorys that he was poisoned by the red viper and that's why he was spending all night on the privy
What if tywin lannister married olenna tyrell instead of Joanna Lannister?
What if the martells joins stannis in the war?
Can you imagine how dangerous Cersei would be if Olenna had raised her? #PrincessOfThorns
if i'm not Mistaken is Olenna not like 5-10 Years Older than Tywin...i know Tywin is in his Late 60's and this is based around a Medieval time Period where men MOSTLY took Younger wifes due to them being more fertile..
@@Basedbateman97 Books-wise, she's a generation older than Tywin, but it's not clear how the revised timeline places her show-wise.
@@Basedbateman97 in some important families, that aspect was complicated if the bride was from a powerful family or had a lot of money/lands: Henry VIII married Catherine of Aragon, who was six years older than him (and his brother’s widow). Or if we’re going even further back, Henry II married Eleanor of Aquitaine, who was 11 years older than him AND divorced, but was heiress to vast territories near his own
What if Jon knew about his birthright as Aegon Targaryen from a young age
@Ívarr hinn Beinlausi jon always brood's so no i don't think he would tell anyone also ned would make sure he wouldn't tell anyone
Omg cersi smiling that’s just more creepy and scary
😂 😂 😂
One thing to note is that if Tyrion is leading the defense against Daenarys he will likely use the same tactics-anti dragon ballistae, etc... As well as rallying the lords against a foreign invader.
Thus in that scenario Tyrion's mind is being used to defend the Lannister hold on the throne not overthrow it.
Which I think puts Tommen's regime in a far better chance of winning.
Good video but I could almost see Euron trying to side with the North with the proposal of winning independence for the North and Iron Islands. I could also see Littlefinger paying more attention to the Iron Islands since in this scenario Dany and Cersei are much more evenly matched and Littlefinger would want to prepare for a war against the victor. Or maybe Euron has Baelon, Yara, and Theon killed in a way that looks like an accident or like an assassination carried out by the Lannisters. Then marrying Ellaria Sand (or one of the sand snakes) and joining with Dany that way. I would love to see a video on "What if Robb had let Catelyn go home?" (instead of meeting with Renly). Would he then go himself, or maybe send Lord Kastark? Would Baelish still be sent to Renly's camp?
Jon's story would be the same? In what world?
1. Sansa convinces him to fight
2. Even if he does fight, he wouldn't win back Winterfell without Sansa
What if Daemeon Blackfire won his rebellion?
Dorne would be independent again,maybe the other kingdons as well.The realm would bleed much more and the great sickness would be even worst for this Westeros
And The roles would have Been reversed, meaning the Targs would be in Exile staging many failed Attacks on Westeros.. but i think the Fighting would be more Brutal than with the Black Fyres with the Role turned around, i could see 2-3 Targ Invasions where they would have more support than The Blackfyres would have had (Paramount Support) and the Great spring Sickness would also be a Big Killer.. but we can only think
What if stannis didn’t burn shireen at the stake
He wouldn't have been character assassinated
What if Cersei accepted Robb's peace offer? Westeros in nutshell 😂
I think that Tywin would go earlier to look over Tommin
Ok Trystane is married to Daenerys but what happens to Myrcella?
Well, she... takes a Certain ''Interest'' in Oberyn Martell and have Martell Babys... OMEGALUL
You're back at it again with this series! It's been so long! Need more! This is your best content!
So glad to see another of your "What If" videos!!!
You were talking about Theon and Yara from the season 7 storyline, but if Sansa is dead, she never goes up to Winterfell. If Sansa never makes it to Winterfell, what makes you think that Theon would actually escape Ramsey of his own volition? The only reason he did was because he was trying to protect Sansa. He'd still be there, Jon probably would've either lost Battle of the Bastards or never bothered to fight in the first place. If that's the case, probably wouldn't have ended up as King in the North, so Daenerys wouldn't care about him at all.
20:30 but Sansa died during the commoner riots right? And wouldn’t that mean Jon loses the battle of the bastards too, either way it’s an interesting theory
Word would have got to Cat and she'd kill Jamie in brainless rage. No deal with the Frey's to double cross Robb. That's a triple good outcome.
Rickon would not be turned over by the Umbers if there was NO Sansa married to Ramsay. They would switch sides and oppose Ramsay after he murders Roost.
Yeah but that’s in the show. In the books Sansa is safe and was never actually married to Ramsey and never went north.
Tyrion would interact with Olena more in this what if than in the actual story & I think she'd give him high praise for keeping up with her. Perhaps a line like, "You truly are the son of Tywin".
So glad these what-ifs are back. I thought you had run out
Your voice is really interesting to listen to, love your stuff man!
Where are you kevin??? Are you back in the states???
Melly Mel I am back!!!! Why what’s up?!
What if the iron born sided with rob?
What if Davos and Tyrion convince both Dany and Jon to wed eachother.
I think you might be the first to question why Highgarden was instantly taken by the Lannisters. Loras was considered to be one of the best fighters and could not have come from a culture that did not revere such men. Highgarden was rich, with a large army, plenty of food, and a strong castle. Jaimie told Olenna that they'd "fought well" but taking such a castle would have taken months and the besiegers would have been vulnerable to attack from the rear.
Sadly, I don't think Tyrion remains hand of the king after Tywin's death in this scenario. He was so unfairly hated by Cersei that I think she would have done something to make sure he wouldn't have remained hand (despite he being the best for the job). I think it probably would end up going to Kevin
Hey @TheBattProductions did you ever notice the the main people who orchestrated the Red wedding (Roose Bolton, Tywin Lanister, and Walder Fray) all three died in the way the people in the red wedding died. Roose was stabbed in the heart and even betrayed like did to Robb. Tywin was killed by a crossbow. And Walder Fray had his throat cut.
What if Jon Snow was born a girl?
ooooh intresting! There's a theory that he was supposed to be a she called Visenya; loads would change like she couldn't join the nights watch but she couldn't really be in a political marriage ANND the relationship with Cat would be intresting
Jenny snow😂
Dany would have to be a boy.
Ívarr hinn Beinlausi I cant believe I actually tried to read all this. Smh
If Jon Snow were a girl, we would be hearing the catchphrase "You know nothing, Jenny Snow!!". LMAO.
What is Viserys wasn’t given his ‘golden crown’?
Can’t imagine the Tyrells ever finding Euron being more appealing. They wouldn’t abide Joffrey and Euron is like a much more calculating, brutal Joffrey that probably wouldn’t have the insecurities that enabled Margaery to have at least some control over Joffrey.
Start of vid establish Sansa is killed but you forget at the end of vid saying she survives the war for the dawn
Slight problem, you mention at 20:35 Sansa, but she died in the riots at the start.
I’m just now finding your channel and I love it! Something I’ve wondered is What if Tyrion was a Targaryen? I was excited about that possibility! Do a video on this!
One thing you forgot is that second sons probably go with Danny as well.
What if Joffrey had been fostered by Ned at Winterfell (the way Robert wanted) and turned out decent?
Absurd text wall of a note: Hound wouldn't leave, though he WOULD likely be the reason Joffrey dies, moving to grab Sansa just as he did before, except this time, the City Watch leaves a hole as the Hound breaks off, and ker-stab. It'll be a few minutes before Hound even knows what happened, so Sandor still saves Sansa, as that was one of his odd priorities of the time. The only reason the Hound bailed before was because Joffrey, *specifically*, tried to force the Hound to rush toward the Wildfire. An unobstructed Tyrion isn't making that play, instead assigning the Hound to protect Tommen in the throne room, which Clegane's got no problem doing, since that is in the opposite direction of fire. Even if he does decide to dip out, this time, he's got the ability to ACTUALLY get Sansa out, since he wouldn't have to sneak away as a deserter (I mean, he is, but no one knows that yet.), and Sansa doesn't have to fear a reprisal from Joffrey, so she can just... go home.
This changes a couple of things: Arya is going a different way after Harrenhal, and this alters A LOT. She falls in with the Brotherhood Without Banners, gets away, and while she still goes into that inn, this time, it's Sansa that blows her cover. The Hound is coming up roses here, cause at this point, he has BOTH Stark girls, and no impediments to Riverrun, since Tommen wouldn't order him hunted down, nor would Tyrion. Sandor is able to use horses instead of walking most the way, and thus, saves BOATLOADS of time, and doesn't have to avoid Lannister patrols. Even if he runs into them, Sansa can just lie, or feed a lie to the Hound, and say that Tywin has seen fit to return the Stark girls in exchange for Ser Jaime, and potential peace with the North.
This is important, because that means Arya and Sansa make it to Riverrun. The Hound asks for position/coin for bringing them both back alive, and I mean, fair point, he's going to get that, likely becoming bodyguard to them. I mean, Catelyn was willing to essentially give up just about anything to get them back. This *also* alters the War of Five Kings.
Renly's dead, Stannis is licking his wounds, and the Greyjoys are mostly just raiding, really. That leaves the events at Kings Landing, where the death of Joffrey, and coronation of Tommen, leave some odd vacancies, and it's... a bit of a mess. Before, Joffrey died AFTER the Red Wedding. Dying before changes the scenario, along with Sansa and Arya no longer being hostages, changes the entire outlay. As far as common knowledge is concerned, the Starks just got a MASSIVE morale boost from Sansa and Arya being alive, and the Hound's defection.
Littlefinger's plans are shot ALL to hell, though I suppose in technical, a new one lays open before him: He is Lord Baelish now, and, named as a Lord, this is still a step up the ladder. Now, he has an interesting future before him, either still trying to play his hand in Kings Landing, OR, he could simply... switch teams, striking a deal with Robb to bring the forces of the Vale, and the forces of his lands in Riverrun to their side. This means Robb makes up his loss of the Karstarks without Walder, and Littlefinger's spies would ferret out the Red Wedding, likely picking out Bolton for a traitor early.
Then again, if Littlefinger comes on, and with the Stark girls having been returned, Bolton wouldn't be so keen to take the Lannister gold. Robb is winning every battle, and while yes, he lost the Karstarks, he just gained the former Master of Coin in Petyr Baelish.
What IF Tommen was the first born. What would happen with Sansa? With Ned? With Nymeria and Lady? With Arya? Would Ned still seek the truth? Would there still be a war with Renly and Stannis? Would the battle of Blackwater Bay still take place? It affects a lot and I think if tommen was the first born instead of Joffrey, would make for an interesting video :)
At the end, you said Sansa comes out of the tunnels after the battle of Winterfell. Didn’t you say Sansa died during the riot? How would her death effect the battle of the bastards, does it happened at all? Does Theon even brake Ramsay’s hold over him? What does Littlefinger do in this Scenario? I recommend a sequel video focusing on Sansa’s death from this scenario.
Not sure if youve done this one before, but what if Robert Baratheon found out his children werent legitmate before he died? Either before he got injured by the boar or by Ned on his death bed and writes someone else as his heir. Perhaps there would be no war at all but im sure it would still cause alllll kinds of drama/schemes by the Lannisters, etc
I love anything you do boo 👍👍👍
8:56 I actually found some book evidence that suggests that oberyn actually knew about the poisoning. The morning of the wedding, Tyrion gave Joffrey a book about the lives of 4 kings and Joffrey being the little shit he is destroys the book. Oberyn talks to Tyrion after saying that the book was a magnificent gift that the king would have been wise to read, he then mentions a hand of the king who poisoned his nephew in order to steal the crown. That story seems remarkably similar to what Tyrion waded accused of and was told by oberyn the day of the purple wedding
What if Robb Stark hired the golden company? Would he have a shot at defeating both Lannister and Tyrell forces?
@Ívarr hinn Beinlausi this is a little late but curious I don't think we would have a red wedding because he would never go back to the freys for men after losing the karstark army since he has the golden company... And balon wouldn't rebel with Robb having the golden company
@Ívarr hinn Beinlausi well robb might not even meet talisa
@Ívarr hinn Beinlausi and the north could send forces back to defend the north
Nope. I used to think he was a good military leader but a poor king but after rewatching the season and the book especially. I think he just sucked. He won battles yes but you can win battles but loose the war due to poor military decisions which he did.
@@sarahjames927 Poor political decisions not military.
0:10 seconds is nightmare fuel even more than flowey the flower’s final form then undertake well maybe not that
What if the city watch was actually loyal to Ned stark?
YES!! He's back
I mean the Tyrells were still plotting when Tywin was alive. He was way more stable then Tyrion ever was and a lot more bright so I don't think the Tyrells would have stopped plotting + if Daenerys is the queen, there is nothing stopping her from just taking s dragon north and defeating the Starks/Jon if he doesn't bend the knee since she basically had the rest of the kingdoms
+++ I don't think Jon would be even in power in the north with Sansa dead
WHAT IF: Ned took Renly's advice in episode 7 and took Joffrey away from Cersei?
What if Elia Martell and Rhaenys Targaryen survived
katerina petrova that’s after the rebellion correct? If so I doubt it would have been won in their benefit so most likely exile or a stripping of power
Well, for starters they would become hostages of the crown, that's for sure, Elia would be confined to her apparments and most likely wouldn't be able allowed to see her daughter much, if at all, she was known for her frail health so she might end up dying eventually anyway, and Rhaenys may not even be allowed to say goodbye to her mother, Cersei is definitely of being that cruel, kinda like Catherine of Aragorn and Mary Tudor, Rhaenys, who I see being raised by Stannis at Dragonstone, because Robert can't stand too look at Rhaegar's dragonspawn all the time, would either be forced to become a Septa, or married to Joffrey, either way it would prevent the Targaryen loyalists from launching a rebellion in her name, if Rhaenys becomes a Septa that's it, she's out of the game, however, if she marries Joffrey and becomes queen that would be very interesting, especially once Dany arrives in Westeros, I sense second Dance of the Dragons becuase both girls would feel entitled to have the throne because they both have suffered a lot, and it's their birthright, Rhaenys actually would've a better claim than Dany, another alternative match to Rhaenys would be Stannis himself, though this would require for Selyse to die some time before after having Shireen, because Rhaenys would be Stannis ward it's very likely she is at Dragonstone when Ned reveals the truth about Cercei's kids and shit goes down, wife or ward Rhaenys' would gain Stannis Dorne's support in the War of the Five Kings, and because it was Selyse who brought Melisandre into their household this means no Lord of Light stuff, wich puts Stannis in a better situation with the Faith of the Seven and its followers, if Rhaenys gives Stannis a son, this would not only be the male heir Stannis always wantee but also a Baratheon and Targaryen child to unite both sides, imagine if the baby comes out silver haired, both of his parents have Targ blood after all, this would put Rhaenys in a better position than Dany, who is allegedly barren, and if Rhaenys were to get a dragon, damn
8:30 I find hard to believe that Sansa's death would not stir suspicion about Arya within the Starks. Cersei just lost her favourite kid and without Sansa she would have hurt Arya just to have someone suffer as much as she did, that is if they do not think Arya escaped during the riot. Ok, let me explain. So Ned was well aware of what Syrio was giving Arya as training exercises, he probably told Catelyn about it, and she would tell Robb that she might've escaped. Not only that, but Littlefinger would be hardpress to find a convincing story as to why or how he knows for sure they still have Arya, after all, Catelyn knows her daughters
16:11 While I think that the Martells would ally with Dany in a heartbeat due to Rhaegar and Ellara being married, what does this means for Myrcella? After all she was sent to Dorne as an olive branch to the Martells.
I honestly think Myrcella would become a player in the game of thrones and the war at large. At first she would try to convince Tommen to stand up to their mother saying that if he delivers the Mountain there's a posibility of Dorne joining a bussiness-only alliance against Stannis and the Starks. Maybe even suggest they trade kids as wards once both Margaery and herself give birth.
However, if Dany enters the picture I can see Myrcella doing two things to safeguard the life of his little brother: 1) She'll Tommen to bend the knee to her as the queen as she has the support of Dorne, this due to Dorne thinking that the eldest child should rule regardless of gender, and she will bend the knee to Dany. 2) Sent a raven to High Garden reminding them of how they got their house seat in the first place, by bending the knee to a Targaryen. Even going as far as implying that Dany having friends in the Free cities, has already struck a better deal for the Iron Bank than Cersei, or that Tommen is already on board.
Can you do a Robert vs Arthur Dayne trial by combat
Oberyn wasn't going to leave, he had a seat on the counsel. If Tywin would die he would be blamed, or Tyrion would be blamed. Then he would face the Mountain.
Love it ^^
tyrion was hand of the king at that time
after king he is on highest position
I don't think Sansa would die regardless, The Hound had a soft spot for Sansa I doubt he would let her be killed. Also as cruel as Cersei is she and Tyrion deeply care about Jamie. Neither one is letting their hostage die.
Also commoners talk. remember the one peasent who said Cersei saw his junk?, word that Sansa was raped and killed would make it back to Rob and Catetyln.
Sansa's dead, so how exactly is she showing up at 20:15?
I couldn't imagine Oberyn not killing Tommen, he'd have every reason to do so in this case
What if Joffrey met Ramsey Bolton
If this happened, Jack Gleeson's talent would have been cut short. Then again, considering how toxic fan responses were about the character, he might have received a lot less hate and still be willing to act.
is it funny that got a ad for that game of thrones app game before watching this?
Well one thing to remember is that Tyrion is the one who sends the Hound to go get Sansa, good chance he'll do it anyway even if Joffrey is dying. Tyrion would still be thinking about Jaime and the need to have Sansa around in order to get him back, plus he never really liked Joffrey anyway, so he probably would send somebody, if not the Hound then one of the other Kingsguard, so in all likelihood Sansa would still be alive.
Please do more what if’s
You should do Death matches between GoT and LOTR characters, starting with Aragorn and Jamie
LOTR aways stomp
Honestly? I could see the Lannisters losing King’s Landing in this scenario, their forces were already demoralized, but Joffrey dying before the Battle of Black Water even happens could lead to mass desertion, Tywin and the Tyrells would find themselves besieging the city they had just planned to save from Stannis.
What if Robb Stark have an interest in the iron throne/Conquering westeros
Btw I MISS YOUR WHAT IF VIDS LOVE IT
(Video starts) KILL IT WITH WILDFIRE
Damn, at first I was excited to see what would happen without Joffrey. But then I realized what happens to Sansa...
Oof.
The Hound was just trying to scare her. It is possible people mad over father's death were still in the crowd would have protected her.
1) missande would be dead as Tyrion saved her in the harpy attack at the fighting pit
2) Dorn would side with Tommen as their prince was engaged to Marsala, AND Dorn was the only land never defeated by dragons. Danny would have a harder time than you think.
Not just Missandei Dany would be to Jorah saved her and Tyrion convinced Dany not to execute him when they reunited
Dany might be dead because Bariston Selmy wouldn't have been there to save her from the scorpion in this scenario. The only reason he leaves is because of Joffrey. But he leaves *after* the riot. If Joffrey is killed during the riot, Tommen would be the king. And Bariston would have no reason to leave King's Landing
YOU FORGOT THE WHOLE ARYA PLOT LINE IN THIS SCENARIO
What if... Rob and Myrcella were engaged instead of Sansa and Joffrey?
What is Ser Alliser didn't open the gates?
Honestly I read the title and my immediate thought was: fucking good.
I love this theory so much more than the actual show honestly. Upset about Sansa and who knows what would have happened with Battle of the Bastards.
Yeah...... I wish that would've happened instead..
.
Love ur vids btw 👀
I’d disagree that they would take kings landing, I mean those ballista were proven to be effective , and since quibern and Tyrion are around it’s likely that they could repel the dragons since it’s shown 1 hit is basically fatal.
Jaime wouldn't be going to Dorne, in this scenerio. The only reason he left to Dorne was because Ellaria wanted Myrcella dead because of Oberyn's death, but Oberyn didn't die, so Jaime would have stayed in Kings Landing.
I don’t think Sansa would be killed because I think the hound would’ve still have gone back for her
What if the unsullied were in high garden waiting for Jaimie?
It’s hard to imagine a scenario where just Joffrey dies but no one else is killed by the enraged crowd as well…
Surely Sansa as well of other notables would have perished as well
Hey! At 15:30 the grandmaster Imp saves Missandai with the good heart. That counts for something.