I actually purchased my Jinhao 80 before getting my Lamy 2000. While I love my L2K and use it as my daily driver now, the Jinhao was what convinced me to put down the significant cash for it based on how much I liked the form factor and feel in-hand. I wonder if getting more people to try this shape has actually increased Lamy's sales since I can't be they only person who has gone through a similar path to purchasing.
Well I do not know about the Lamy 2K being influenced by the Jinhao 80, but pretty much at the beginning of my fountain pen journey a few years ago, I purchased a TWSBI Diamond 580 knockoff by Rungao to see, whether or not I liked the shape and size. I did and then purchased the regular 580, currently inked with Diamine Oxford Blue and one of my go to pens. I also have the pleasure to own a Lamy 2000, but I bought this one blind because of it's reputation.
@@libertyintegritytruth there will always be that...I refused to get a 2000 forever...I just finally got one last week after getting a few Jinhao 80s to see if they were actually comfortable for my giant hands.
@@libertyintegritytruth Some old dead dude is rolling in his grave right now because all these pen manufacturers stole his invention of putting ink in a stick and writing with it. You should gather up all your pens and burn them in shame so that the universe can be set right.
this seems identical to how I convinced myself to get a L2K. There was no way I could justify paying so much for a pen otherwise. Not everyone has a FP buddy they can use to try before they buy
Hi David! You sounded a bit under the weather in the video, so I wanted to make sure you know that we all love your videos! They make the day of many of us fountain pen enthusiasts better!
100% Even though this has kicked up a bit of a debate in the comments, I don't think anyone could fault David's consistently excellent reviewing skills.
I have a Lamy 2K so I am not going to buy the other. Still, I have a few Jinhao pens and like them. This is certainly a good alternative for some people. Cheaper pens keep getting better and better but lately also more expensive.
I have a 2K and still bought the 80 out of curiosity. The 80 is really good as the body texture feels great in hand and the nib is all right. It writes differently than a 2K and the all black sets it apart from Lamy.
I have a Lamy 2000 macralon with a medium oblique nib. I ordered a red and a green Jinhao 80 to complement the Lamy as they don’t make those colours. The fact that Jinhao has copied the Al Star /Safari nib set up means I can change those for stub or oblique nibs .
Great comparison review. Just one small thing I spotted. At 4:23 you demonstrate the piston knob on the Lamy. Then at 4:36 you turn the two pens to show the bottom metal inserts and it looks like at 4:48 it looks like you misidentify the Jinhao as the Lamy.
The Lamy 2000 is still on my wishlist. I do have some Jinhao pens (X450 and X750) and I really like them! They are good writers for sure. I wouldn't buy the 80 as a substitute for the Lamy 2K, but I will consider buying it as a great pen for the money.
ik ben best wel tevreden over de kwaliteit van lamy, ze doen er echt wel wat aan om de pennen uniek te laten ogen en voelen ze zijn ook makkelijk als er iets mis is, even mailtje sturen en ze repareren je pen gratis
When you put up your poll, I wasn’t sure which option to choose. I think your decision not to review the Jinhao alone was appropriate. It’s fair to call out Jinhao for copying the Lamy, and you still managed to do a just appraisal of its merits. Nicely balanced and nuanced solution to the dilemma.
David, I was concerned about it being a copy but also very curious and looked forward to your analytical comparison. Love the way you went through the comparison and helps summarise that although much cheaper it is not a replacement for the classic Lamy 2000
I see this type of pen as variations on a design. there are enough differences in the guts of the Jinhao 80 to consider it to be a different pen than the LAMY. The popularity of the Jinhao lies in the low price point, good construction and feel in the hand, but most importantly the ability to swap a variety of nibs - especially wider ones for most non asian users. it writes beautifully no matter what you put on it. it is a strange sort of flattery to the LAMY, being similar in style yet different, and in the end encouraging buyers to raid the LAMY stack of nibs- cursive in particular.
Just my 2 cents, and purely my opinion :)… Yes, except Jinhao can make their own pen with all those features without being almost identical to every other brand out there, this isn’t exclusive to Jinhao but to all chinese copies. Of course they could look similar but what chinese copies do is blatantly steal the appearances of other brands rather than tweaking it to be their own, an example of a copy that i think is acceptable is the Jinhao 159 because they at least bothered to change the clip of the pen, but the Jinhao80 and Majohn A1 are near exact copies in terms of appearances to the Lamy 2000 and Pilot capless which i feel isn’t acceptable. You could argue that the internals are different but Lamy and especially Pilot for the capless have put in a lot of thought and time into the exterior to their respective pens maybe even more so for the exterior of the capless than the internals. Therefore i feel that its not really a variation or compliment to the name brands but rather an attempt to steal customers and devalue products from the brands that are innovating. Honestly, how many times have you heard someone say, ‘i cannot afford a Lamy 2000 for now so i’m going to get a Jinhao80 until i can afford a Lamy 2000’ vs ‘Why would i spend $200 on a Lamy 2000 when the Jinhao80 looks the same as is a good writer.’ This only disincentivises name brands to continuously innovate and will be worse off for the fountain pen community in the long run. sorry for the long comment!
The end of your comment and the comment from archivist17 also proves the point that it is not a compliment or variation but an attempt to steal customers. if the Jinhao 80 did not exist the only choice for us would be to buy the actual Lamy 2000 which would benefit Lamy way more than just half of us buying nibs. And any action from Lamy to reduce the number of people buying clones like increasing the prices of nibs so its no longer worth buying a clone, or facilitating all repairs and replacements so nibs are no longer available to be sold to the public would just make them look bad and more troublesome for Lamy’s actual customers.
@@stefanwood2182 yeah but that’s exactly the point, if Jinhao made a pen that you liked then they could make their own pen rather than stealing the design of Lamy or other brands it wouldn’t change their customers, maybe even gain more customers.
While I understand that copying is just bad, I also find it egregious that Lamy is charging an absurd amount for the 2000. Sure you can say lamy has the safari, but you have to agree that the safari is ugly, or at least not as pretty as the 2000. And it isn't that cheap either. I think these Chinese copies has more value that just making these pens available to the budget constraint. For one, it would light a fire under lamy to make some new pens. The dialog copy, as terrible as it was, probably played a part in leading to a development of dialog cc. And my word the cc is a beautiful pen. The majohn A1 is a frighteningly good copy of the pilot VP - and even offered a clipless variant with a small rollstop. That will probably play a role in getting pilot to come up with something better than the silly LS. And as of now, the only way to get a retractable fountain pen below 50 is literally both these Chinese pens. Why are the big companies gatekeeping fountain pens that people can use daily behind high price tags? Even platinum has the gall to price their plasticity, basically stamped steel preppy nibbed curidas out of reach to students.
I have to agree with this, fountain pens from the big companys are ludicrously overpriced and they need some competition because the way it looks the companys have all agreed to keep the prices high and for the most part you cant say its craftsmanship or materials cost as the materials are almost nothing and the majority of the pen is mass produced yes I can get a beautifuly hand designed and turned pen from a local manufacturer for 1/4 the price of something like the lamy 2000 (and I have) but its not on a large enough scale to provide competition to the larger brands
You have a *lot* of other Lamy pens that are more affordable though, not just the Safari. As for the Safari being ugly, that's a subjective statement. I really like the design of the Safari, and I probably prefer the Lx to the 2000 visually. I do think that fountain pens are quite expensive in general, but at the end of the day it is a niche market for enthusiasts so a high price is not surprising. Lamy is actually on the better end of the spectrum by offering adorable options.
Thanks for the video! An interesting comparison for sure. Though at first I thought it seemed pointless for the pen to look almost exactly like a Lamy 2000 from the outside, I suppose copying just the design has given the pen more exposure and sales even if it is just because it sparked so many people's curiosity (including my own). Though I understand Jinhao's point of view on this decision, I also struggle with the idea that they just "take" other company's designs they worked long and hard on to make a quick buck (in case of their design copy pens)! With that said, though I personally do not buy the "copy" pens, I also cannot deny I am always intrigued to see what the companies did with them. 🤷♀
A very fair review considering your reservations. One has to ask, is the difference between the Jinhao and Lamy really worth $192? At what point are you getting a better pen and not just buying a brand name?
Right I was wondering the same thing, as well. I find myself torn here because I can definitely see both sides of the argument, For and Against look-alike clones.
Thanks for the comparison! I am looking at getting a Lamy 2000 and happened to run across the Jinhao. I was considering getting the Jinhao because I can get it in green but mostly to see if I like the form factor before I spend the money on the Lamy. I figure if I like it and get the Lamy too then the Jinhao may be a good knock around pen for when I don't want to risk damage or loss of the Lamy. Anyway, we run into the same conflicts in the knife edc world with Chinese companies either making complete forgeries of knives, including the branding, or at least taking some of the primary design cues from other companies. Thanks again!
One thing to add about the Jinhao 80 is that they make them in several fun colors that I think many Lamy 2000 lovers wished that the Lamy is available in. That's the main draw of the Jinhao for me! While I will likely never get one for myself, I also heard that the Jinhao takes Lamy cartridges, converters, and nibs so the user could technically Frankenstein the Jinhao into an almost Lamy pen with those upgrades... While the two pens look practically the same, I don't think that folks who are buying the Jinhao 80 are looking for a Lamy 2000 replacement; it feels to me like the two pens are made for entirely different sections of the market. I enjoyed your very detailed comparison of the two pens very much, thanks for the analysis!
I think he mixed up those two. If you paid attention to when he was showing the piston fill right before, it seems like he was calling the Lamy a Jinhao and vice versa.
@@msshaffer5 around 4:23 he's demonstrating the piston and it's the one on the top. Then he switches them to the backs/bottoms and what was on top (Lamy) becomes the one on the left side. Then he talks about the brushed finish of the Lamy while pointing to the right one. What's weird is my Lamy looks like the right one with very fine parallel scratches on it. But it's also very old so those might be from use.
Fine review. Thank you for all the effort you put into these. I own three L2K's and two J80's and much prefer the Jinhao. As far as copying goes, is there any pen manufacturer that hasn't copied the Sheaffer Balance? Or anyone that has not copied the Parker hooded nib? Or any pens that don't use some variant of Waterman's capillary feed? Isn't the Lamy 2000 using a piston fill that they did not originate and the cap retaining lugs look suspiciously like those of a Sheaffer PFM and Imperial. All that said, Lamy makes a damn fine pen but I enjoy Jinhao more.
@@donbrownist My last name is an homage to a scene in The Simpsons, where Homer writes "Fake Name" on some form, and the woman behind the counter calls him "Mister Fah-kuh-nah-me". I wanted to add a Japanese first name, and instantly thought of the former Seattle great, Ichiro.
David, is there discoloration on the grip section of your stainless steel Lamy Studio? I have that exact pen, and was curious why your grip looks discolored. BTW- Great review on the Lamy 2K clone.
I don't see this as a problem at all, we're talking about the same visual design and that's it. There isn't anything illegal about that anywhere in the world. If we're on this topic, we also should acknowledge that the Lamy 2000 has been in production for over half a century, and in that time all they've done with it was jack up the price and develop QC issues.
You are confusing counterfeiting, a despicable theft, with the perfectly ethical operation of patent expiration. Patents are essentially a monopoly, which is seen as a necessary means to make research and development a profitable investment. It is an advance given to the initial enterprise to recover its costs. The advance granted is considered more than sufficient to establish an industry and build a reputation with consumers. Next, intellectual property is released in the public domain so that all of humanity can benefit from innovations that improve the lives of all of us. It is this second stage which, wrongly, gives rise to moral outrage. But it is the agreement, an ethical one, and it was established for the benefit of all. In the past, before patents, innumerable inventions were kept secret not to get stolen, consequently lost without anyone benefiting. This is why patent were put in place and operate the way they do, despite the misplaced loyalty expressed by early adopters who can afford the original. From the start, the system is meant to allow everybody to afford the subsequent iterations of the invention, and to be able to use it, not just a select few. Lamy more than had its fair share to recover its initial costs and establish itself as a major brand. No injustice is being done by ending its monopoly, as it agreed to. So much the worse for it if, through lack of foresight, it did not prepare for the release of its monopoly, and it has become so accustomed to overcharging for its products that competing items can be offered at prices several orders of magnitude below its own. You can't have your cake―monopoly―and eat it too―complain that it has expired and been released into the public domain. It's the exploitation in perpetuity that should make your blood boil, not the fact that billions of people can now afford a Lamy 2000/Studio substitute. This is not a tragedy. It is a step forward. ____ A side note: I am not saying that this is your case, but the introduction of a cheaper model is often difficult to accept psychologically when one identifies with a clientele whose bragging rights were lost with the loss of exclusivity. Grief is difficult and goes through the classic stages including anger. There is no shortage of exceptional products, status symbols and trophies on the market. One can feel exceptional in many other ways than owning a high-end Lamy, or even a high-end fountain pen.
@@thorhilda I know the difference between the concepts, and normally I'd say: YES you are right. In the case of the State of China and Jinghao in particular, they are both extremely impertinent in the way they copy products designed by other companies. If you go through the lists of products they sell you'll see, they have copied from almost every western company (Montblanc, Lamy, Waldmann, Parker, Waterman, etc.) and produce cheap knockoffs, in many cases, they produce the exact same product, just made out of cheaper materials, or inferior standards. If you tell me: That is legal! I would say: Sure! FOR ME personally, I think they are a disgrace. I do not like nazi-like-states (I wrote "nazi" maybe I should've said racist and dictatorial). If it was up to me, I wouldn't buy a thing from them.
@@maximilianschwab9668 I share your concerns about China, but not about how to deal with it. Consider what you are proposing: "Exceptionally, you deny the set of principles to businesses that you equate with the state that you hate. If it were up to you, you would undermine the economy of the largest population on the planet in order to impose your ideological objections on them, because you despise authoritarian people who impose their ideology on others." I don't think you realise that your double standard does exactly what you accuse them of. Complex problems can only be solved in stages, all of which are imperfect transitions to a better future. Rejecting the favourable with the unfavourable does not lead to their resolution. To return to the topic of Figboot's video, far from the politicised discourse, I would remind you that the Jinhao 80 is only superficially similar to the Lamy 2000. It is not a tragedy nor is it the battle that will advance humanity. Jinhao is perfectly within his rights. Those who, since 1966, could not afford a Lamy 2000 can finally enjoy its ergonomy. This takes nothing away from the original. Thank you for your opinion. Have a nice day.
@@thorhilda I cite: "Complex problems can only be solved in stages, all of which are imperfect transitions to a better future". STALIN would love your assessment. What did he say?: " A couple of dead people are a tragedy, millions just a statistic". For sure you just showed your true ideology. I am pretty sure you are not concerned with anything that has to do with the Chinese system, I am pretty sure you are part of it, or at least you have been paid to make PR for them. Platitudes and a lot of words without any meaning, but the one statement I cited from you. I think in the end, China will probably try something that could destroy all of us. It is like the story of the scorpion and the frog ...sadly, probably nobody will survive that intent. By hon! 😕
@@maximilianschwab9668 You are incredibly narrow-minded. You've run out of arguments so you pull Stalin, the Chinese Communist Party, scorpions and frogs out of your hat. And what else? Maybe Hitler? Oh yes, you've already done that indirectly with the Nazi quip. It is easier for you to imagine malice in your interlocutor, to attribute to them complicity with those you hate and fear, than to consider that they might have a valid point. Such motivated reasoning only sunks you deeper into the inhumanity you have transpired so far. The mere prospect of having to revise some of your views, of ironing out some of your moral contradictions, is enough to attempt to belittle me with a sexist moniker. That's very small of you. Nevertheless, I reiterate my greetings, "Have a nice day", to which I you wish also, "May it be filled with kindness."
I have a couple of real Lamy 2000s (the brushed steel version and the entire family of the regular version, fountain pen, rollerball, ballpoint, multi-pen, and 0.5 and 0.7 pencils), but I recently bought the Jinhao 80, mostly out of curiosity. While it's a shameless copy, I don't see the Jinhao 80 as competing against the real Lamy 2000 and not a single Lamy 2000 sale will be lost to this knock-off. Someone who wants the real thing will get the real thing. The quality can't even be compared. But it is fierce competition for entry level pens like the Preppy and the Metropolitan. It's also great as an expendable pen for situations where you wouldn't dare carry an expensive pen, including leaving it lying on your desk at the office. One fun feature is that unlike other pens with Lamy-like nibs that have incompatible dimensions, the Jinhao 80 can use real Lamy Safari nibs! I put a black Safari nib on my all-black Jinhao 80 to complete the look, since the all-black Jinhao 80 has a chrome nib that looks out of place. The only thing is that the Lamy nib costs about as much as the entire Jinhao 80, so you're effectively doubling its price. Also, the Jinhao 80 nib is good enough that it doesn't need to be replaced for functional reasons, unless you want a tipping size that they don't have. The medium black Safari nib that I installed is much broader than any Jinhao nib, so it's more than just a cosmetic upgrade. I also bought the color versions, which feel much less like a knock-off. When it's blue or brown, you can't be accused of trying to look like you're carrying a real Lamy. And the brown goes well with a traveler's journal.
I bought the Jinhao 80 because of these reviews. The Lamy 2000 will never be in my pen budget. Unfortunately my J80 is sooooo frustrating. It is such a hard start that I hate to use it. I have cleaned it and still have trouble getting it started. Once I can finally get it flowing it is a smooth writer but the time and frustration is so not worth it. Why do the inexpensive Varsity pens write immediately but this pen takes submersion and repeated attempts to get it going?? Urg!
I bought a Lamy 2000 several years ago, and it didn't write well. I sent it to have the nib swapped out, and I still didn't like it. Maybe it was just the small sweet spot of that particular nib. So, I would like to try the Jinhao to see if I like the way it writes better since I got rid of the Lamy 2000.
I find all this handwringing over copying pens to be tiresome to be honest and a lot of it is based on anti-Chinese sentiment. I have lots of pens in my collection that pretty much look and feel identical except for the filling mechanisms: Montblanc 146, Pilot Custom 743, Pilot Custom 823 (Smoke), Platinum President, Sailor 1911L etc. But I don’t hear anyone complaining about the big brands all making virtually the same cigar shaped, black plastic pen with gold trim! Where is the faux outrage and IP infringement comments for these pens. I totally agree with Doug “Inkquiring Minds” on this one. There are enough differences between the two for the Jinhao 80 to be regarded as an inspired by pen. Don’t get me wrong I love the Lamy 2k (I have 6 in different nib widths and finishes) but I also enjoy the Jinhao 80, which comes in colours like blue, brown, red and green and I don’t have to pay £500 for the privilege of owning them! Let’s be honest the cost of the Lamy 2k LE Bauhaus blue and brown is ridiculous. The Jinhao fine nibs on these pens are very good. Smooth with a tad of feedback so I’ve not swapped them out for my Lamy nibs, as yet. The 80 is a well made, great pen for its price point but a Lamy 2k it is not and never will be. There’s no reason as fountain pen enthusiasts that we can’t enjoy both and accept that they are similar, but at the same time two very different pens.
I don't think 'anti-Chinese' sentiment has anything to do with it. It's a cheap knock-off on a Lamy 2000, period. Don't forget iphones are made in China. They're quite capable of the highest quality production standards, but you're going to pay a price for it just like anywhere else. An $8 pen is all the quality that $8 will buy you. I like iphones, I don't like cheap knock-offs.
@@jaystone4816 With regards to the anti-Chinese sentiment I disagree, I was speaking generally and not just about this particular pen. As I said there appears to be a double standard in operation regarding how Chinese pens are viewed and those of more established brands. The majority of pens on the market today are knock offs from previous ones, whether that’s in terms of the filling mechanism or aesthetics. How many Duofold clones are out there from reputable western brands or copies of the Montblanc 146? They don’t get the same disparaging “cheap knock off” comments. That’s the point I’m making. I happen to like iPhones too and I’m fortunate enough to be able to have not only an iPhone but also expensive pens in my collection but not everyone is as lucky. These pens appeal to a particular market that can’t or won’t pay for the more expensive premium pen brands available. This approach democratises the hobby making it more affordable and accessible to a wider audience. I don’t see anything wrong with that. You may view it as a cheap knock off but I think they’ve made minor changes to a very popular pen that creates a different writing experience. Watch Doug Rathbun’s Inkquiring Minds video and you’ll see he prefers the Jinhao 80 to the Lamy 2K that he sold. Horses for courses. I prefer my Lamy 2000 and I think it is a superior pen but that doesn’t mean that I can’t appreciate the Jinhao 80 for what it is, and without the condescension.
@@deloceanophoto It might be. I’m not sure to be honest. It wouldn’t surprise me if it is. There are so many black pens with gold trim it’s hard to keep up.
I don't get why you would copy the design and then omit everything that makes the LAMY 2000 attractive. If you're going to make a completely different pen, why not come up with a new look for it?
I have this Jinhao and absolutely love it. Although I'm generally not into copies, it isn't a counterfeit or pretending to be a Lamy 2000 -- nobody thinks it is. It is a VERY close copy, though. Still, its a great great pen for the price, and I don't think Lamy is going to be sweating it much.
Thanks for another excellent video. Having patents and copyrights expire has long been used as a way to promote enhancements and innovations. This does appear to show a different twist to the design that would not otherwise have never come into being. I don't like the idea of fakes but in the same vein nothing truly just pops out of the ether (Montblanc, Sailor, Platinum, Pilot, etc).
I mean patents expire after relatively short period to promote copying, and price competition. The intention was to reward innovation with short time period of monopoly, to encourage innovation, but make it expire to promote cost competitiveness. This was the explicit reason, so it is not a bug, but the law working as intended.
I love the Lamy 2000 shape, dimensions and weight, but do not like Piston or Vacuum Fillers, so getting a Lamy 2000 "isn't in the cards". I have wanted a Lamy 2000 C/C or Lamy Studio Makrolon, so the Jinhao 80 fulfilled that need. I picked up a Jinhao 80 and added an o-ring to the Section barrel thread tube because there is too much play when threading it on and lacks a substantial "feel" when the barrel is completely tightened down. The Cap clip has too much side to side play and therefore feels flimsy, fragile. The Converter is quite good, holding a little bit more ink than the Lamy Converter and it has the advantage of having a round knob which is easier to turn, especially appreciated when cleaning and flushing the Converter as it makes "quick work" of it. The Section mold lines, easily seen from the side as the Section is rotated, one right in-line with the middle of the nib and the other 180 degrees opposite, drive me nuts. I suspect that the Jinhao 80 will lead to an increase in Lamy nibs purchases and will also ultimately lead to increased Lamy 2000 sales, once one feels one in the hand and finds the dimensions agreeable. I am pretty sure that some have bought a Lamy 2000 "blind" and when they put it in their hand found that they did not like it, or they hated posting the pen, they found it too small. The 13mm Barrel dia. is perfect, not too skinny, not too fat. At an open length of 123.5mm, with a Lamy nib, it should fit most hands, and when posted the Cap opening (14.2mm dia.) shouldn't bite into the web of the hand. A posted length of 154mm/6.0" is perfect. When filled there is no Converter rattle (unlike the Jinhao 51A), it does not strike the inside of the barrel. The Cap seems to be air-tight so there should not be hard-start problems. I found the Jinhao nib to be closer to an , about . The nib is soft, so Brass Shimming it is pretty easy. It's not a bad pen for $8, pretty good, actually, but hardly a threat to the Lamy 2000. Anyone who picks up a Lamy 2000 will immediately be able to tell that it is high quality, feels substantial.
Is it legal to sell these in the US? Here in Europe you would have to import them by yourself and hope for customs not to check the package, because they will throw it into the trash.
David, you made a mistake in this video. You called the pen the Jinhao 90 in your intro. In the description for the video you titled it the Jinhao 80 also in your writing sample.
Like I said in the survey I don’t care for the L2K so I wouldn’t care about the Jinhao… yet I watched your video 🙃… great job as usual 👍 What the fuzz anyhow? They are not calling it Lamy, different nib, different filling system… it’s more of an homage than a copy IMO. Why all the fuzz here and not the Jinhao 100 or X159? At least Jinhao comes up with colors and fills that gap 😉 These homage can also allow people to try the size before getting the real thing and spending big money. For me I am lucky I can afford the real thing so it’s the other way around, I buy the real thing first then the homage… but I live close by 2 big brick and mortar shops so I can try before spending the big $. Then with the homages I get the colors … so I don’t feel bad having 20 Jinhao Centenial 100 and 5 X159.
Not sure if you did the 777/599 vs Safari/Al Star. They're also worth checking out, especially the metal version. And the Jinhao feels like isn't trying to be a replica.
Thanks, David. FP nerd drama is good fun. No issue for me. If you want a Lamy 2000 this pen will not substitute for it, especially when the cap is off or you're inking it up.
There are reasons patents expire. This may be an unpopular view, but shame on Lamy. They've milked this design for decades. On the rare occasion they bless us with a change, like a unique color, the price is ridiculous. Lamy should have been the innovators on their own design.
Finally a good take. Should we shame Sailor for copying the Montblanc, or Montblanc for copying Waterman? If you call the Jinhao a ripoff then all these brands are ripoffs.
They do release quite innovative designs every few years... The Lamy 2000, specifically, is their "Montblanc 149", you don't go changing a "perfect" design...
@@jimmybritt8405 Well, yes, it is in fact entirely possible to do this. I do not know whether or not I would say that LAMY, per se, is guilty of this, but George Lucas and his Star Wars franchise definitely comes to mind as an example.
I used to own a 2000 but it was too wet and wrote too wod for me. I have avoided the Safari and other iterations of the same design due to the triangular grip, though the nib intrigued me. The Jinhao 80 is a combination of the two models. Is it a ripoff? Almost and do agree that more time and effort should be spet making original models. But the price makes it worthwhile for experimentation. And it appears to accept Lamy nibs. I think if you keep in mind you are not buying an exact copy of the 2000 and have no expectations that the pen will perform at the same level, then, why not try it?
Counterfeit is the easy one because the item is intended to trick you/end user into thinking it is something it isn't. E.G. same looks, packaging, branding, etc to make you think it is from a higher value/different brand. Copy and inspired are a bit more grey, if it looks the same but doesn't have the branding/packaging is it a copy if they change a minor detail is it inspired or does it need to be majorly different with minor similarities? Honestly not sure on the last two.
Personally I do not support design rip-offs. I view this as intellectual theft. Now, if a company releases a pen which is inspired by (name) and this pen has its own personality then I reckon that is purely competition and a reasonable commercial practice.
I’m not talking about ‘protected periods’. FWIW, those periods can be shortened or as in the case of USA copyright lengthened at the will ot the government of the day. I’m talking about a company who is to lazy or cheap to create their own design. Sure, use design elements from another manufacturer - no problems. Simply mimicking the vast majority of another design regardless of how old the design may be is lazy. As I said this is my opinion.
Loving these Jinhao 80s. Of course I’d love a 2000, but cannot afford that cost. With these I can also swap in other Lamy nibs. They do require a little bit of attention with a micro mesh pad to get rid of the visible injection moulding seam. I wis Jinhao had dealt with that tiny little detail.
@@ichirofakename The fact that Pilot never offered a clipless version in fifty years is baffling, as there is an obvious vocal pent-up demand for it. Also there not some steel nib VPs on Amazon for around $80, although it seems like a grey market import of Japanese territory only models. (Caplets vs. VP branding)
@@ichirofakename I know. Unbelievable that Pilot refuses to answer the demand. Especially as it is really a simple change as none of the inner workings needs to be redesigned,, and would infact be cheaper to manufacture. And apropo this is the reason that patents expire, so that if an incumbent is unwilling to improve a product, add a feature, or provide consumer with reasonable price, then an newcomer can legally step in, and provide a cheaper and/or improved copy to satisfy the demand for such an offering. The people that write patent laws knew what they were doing, and they certainly didn't intend to create unlimited monopolies some people believe are due, which serves the companies, but not society at large.
Greetings from Australia. Good video. Jinhao have done the same with the Jinhao 82 which is an alleged copy of the Sailor Pro Gear slim. The pens look great and the more expensive pen has gold fittings and medium nib. $10 AUD. The cheaper model ($7) is only available in silver trimmings and fine or extra fine. I ordered two of the more expensive pens. It is frustrating because Jinhao has the technology and expertise to produce their own exclusive pens, but seem to push their luck by copying established pens.
Aside from the ethics of making a copy-cat... China can actually make astounding "fakes." They're not all trash (I'm talking across many domains... electronics, watches, other goods... not just pens.) But they can also make trash like this. I wouldn't be surprised if there are some other Chinese "fake" fountain pens that can match the quality of the original. Not saying you should go out and buy one, just letting you know what I've learned about the Chinese market. They can copy at all levels, from similar quality to cheap knock-off. They have the industrial and technical base to do this.
For those on tight budgets, Jinhao is a nice way to get an expensive-looking pen and NOT break the bank so to speak, I have several Jinhao and I like the feel of each one. One of my favorites is the 250 which is an all-metal pen and I got a set of four for about $24 USD in 2017. I do like the fact that every Jinhao pen that I purchased has come with a converter, and they write fairly smoothly for cheap pens
There are just better pens out there for the price point for a true fountain pen lover that have an identity of their own. The only purpose these ripoffs serve is to appear more expensive than they are. It's basically like buying a fake Louis Vuitton wallet to look rich. Even if it's genuinely well made, there is no integrity in it. There are better writing experiences to be had from legacy fountain pen brands like Lamy itself at the lower price points that write wonderfully and actually stand on their own.
@@REDnBLACKnRED honestly, lamy and pilot brands have great pens. The issue is a lot of us don't have that kind of money. My father used a cheap pen for nearly a decade with no issues until as a child, I decided to destroy it.
I don't have a LAMY 2000 and probably never will because I don't like the shape, although the nib is supposedly wonderful. They copied only the part I don't like! So, no interest from me ...
Now there are Jinhaos 80 in burgundy and blue with gold trims and gold plated nibs. Really nice pens which you can get in Europe for less than 6 euros. I bought both colours and they are a lot of fun and EXCELLENT writers for the price.
I want to be inspired by the quality of the writing instrument. That’s part of the joy of fountain pens. There is nothing inspiring to me about using an $8 Chinese pen that’s a ripoff of an iconic pen. I’d rather have fewer pens that inspire me than multiple that don’t.
I always think of this pen as a baby of a Lamy 2000 and Study. Since I came across it and bought one it actually has made me kind of want a Lamy 2000. I haven't though because I don't like piston fillers.
not the same material, no metal section, no hooded nib and not a piston fill so not really a copy. i did swap out the nib for a lamy style EF nib from inexpens. it's my everyday pen.
I grappled with the "knock off" aspect, too but finally concluded that by and large there are only so many design factors that fit human hands. For the uninitiated (to the wonderful world of FPs), how many pens so resemble the MB 149 or 146 (black, higher grade resin etc). No wonder MB had to put a trademark snowflake on it. I'd argue that the use of a steel, non-hooded nib, C/C fill take it out of the knock off arena and place it more in the homage category.
The quality of a pen isn't just what it looks like on the outside. It's how well all the components of that pen are. I don't think you can compare the quality of a Montblanc 146 or 149 to just any old black pen.
@@jaystone4816 Oh, don't disagree. My point is that some of the "knock off" flak seems to center on the appearance of a pen but that it takes more than that. For what it's worth, though, I do think the MBs are over rated (or more specifically, overpriced) -- sorta like Mercedes Benz in the US (taxi cabs in a lot of the rest of the world).
@@13noman1 I agree Montblanc is very overpriced, but the quality is there. It's better to buy used in good condition, and there's a lot out there. The double-digit series (12, 14, 22, 24) from the 1960s have fantastic nibs and are reasonably priced. They have a very different "modern" look from the Meisterstuck line today. David reviewed them earlier, so you can check that out if you're interested.
I have both the jinhao leaks ink to the cap if you carry it in you pockets and once you grab it expect inky finger, and is almost impossible to remove that nib but for a $8 pen I guess is worth what you pay for. There is no comparison to the Real lamy smoothness and reliable and can carry it as a daily carry with no leaks or problem. For $8 honestly for a few more dollar you are better of getting a real Safari in my opinion
Not really, the Safari grip turns of plenty of people, and so does the school pen look. It is literally made to feed the German school market, and look it, so it doesn't compete with the higher priced Lamy offerings. Of course it is a bit cheaper in Germany.
Common Lamy! Why don’t you sue, like you did Moonman? BTW love your reviews, always! Would like to have a comparison review for best pens to travel on planes. Pilot 823 being one of them. They should be pens that isolate the ink from the pressure change or nib.
As soon as you uncapped it, it's clearly different. I mean, come on! The Lamy contains a hooded nib copied from Parker, a piston filler taken from Pelikan... we can play comparisons all day, if you like. It's by no means unique to Chinese companies, as the multifarious Duofold copies on the market attest. After half a century, a design is fair game, surely? And this Jinhao is an excellent pen, as it happens.
I've now seen a few replies that talk about how different pen companies are already copying each other. Let's be clear, the piston filler concept is a operational part of the pen. Copy it all you want, improve it or even patent it. That's like the engine in a car. We don't go around accusing of all other non-mercedes brands of copying the original Diamler-Benz combustion engine. We do however notice and point at a car if the said manufacturer copies the body curves of a VW beetle to the T. The look of a FP is integral to it's identity, specially when the look's been unique for more than 5 decades. Chinese companies knocking off a EXACT replica are hurting the market. If you could afford a Porsche (or a Lambo or Ferrari or Range Rover, etc.) would you actively criticize those manufactrers the same way? How about the Classic Kitchen Aid mixer? How about the Braun shaver? The Braun Radio? The list goes on and on. Copying PURELY for the sake of ripping off is theft, plain and simple.
@@nerdlogger Calling it theft is just a stretch. The problem with Chinese manufacturers is underselling and the typical work conditions for people in the country. The reason theyre able to undersell to begin with. Knock offs arent great but they don't kill products, because they're knock offs. They don't compare. Anybody buying the J80 over the L2k just doesn't have 100+ laying around, and they aren't going to get close to the same experience. L2k purchases aren't going to tank just because of a Jinhao that doesn't even have close to the same nib. I certainly don't think that knock offs are "ethical" but calling it flat out theft is almost silly. Lamy is a giant who isnt going to take a real hit from something that is a knock off in exterior design only.
@@edwinbeta2806 the depreciation of general value, cost-performance doesn't just stigmatize Chinese copy manufactures which may serve them the karma, but anyone trying to break in with something new is discouraged if everyone else echoes 'well I can get the not terribly performing copy of expensive product for cheap, what is any different with your original?' of which however argument you put as originator won't be heard because people forget someone has to live off of their creation. I think the danger is here I am guilty of purchasing Jinhao copies but I also bought the original of their copies where its simply worth the money and respect, where it can be afforded(jinhao 992 and Sailor Procolor, but no modern parker 51 for me and just enjoy Jinhao 86 for nib tuning practice)
I bought and enjoy the Jinhao pens and have every intention of getting the Lamy 2000. The Jinhao convinced me I would like and appreciate using the German masterpiece… that is the Lamy 2000.
In my personal opinion, the pen world should stop treating Jin Hao as a legitimate company who makes "alternative" pens, and treat it as a pirate rogue company stealing from others. They could have gone for the market of cheap/affordable pens who write well - nothing wrong with that, actually, that would be fantastic, just using an original or even generic design. Instead they went for the falsification market. That's is a pity.
Nobody who wants a 2000 is going to not buy one because they have an $8 Jinhao. Now, if they had the same everything, and they charged over $100 for it, and people bought it over the Lamy, then you would have a problem. The bottom line is that this does not hurt Lamy a bit. The Parker 51 clones might be one that is harming a company though, but with that ridic price tag, they deserve it.
I ended up buying one when they came out with the other colors. Overall an excellent pen for the price but a little too similar to the Lamy 2000 when capped. I would like to see Lamy come out with an economical version of the Lamy 2000. Maybe something as simple as a steel nib variant. If they offered that for $50-$100 it would break the market.
Thanks for this review. This launch is intriguing bc Jinhao may expand the model to include fun colors. While I respect Lamy’s decision to limit the breadth of color options for this flagship brand, every year I hope the special edition will include a pop of color.
One thing about the Jinhao 80 is it at least comes in lots of colors, which the Lamy 2000 does not. So yes, it'd be nice if the form wasn't almost a 1:1 copy, but they do at least offer some variety of that form factor that Lamy themselves do not.
Thanks for the review and the comparison, Dave. Like you, I'm not in favor of knock-offs and even less thrilled with the working "conditions" of the Chinese employees. That said, I do have a few Jinhao's in my "collection" - the X450, X750 and a couple of the Sharks. They seem to be decent pens and worth the prices I paid for them but they don't make me stand up and cheer. I'm curious as to how well the Jinhao 80 seals. My Lamy 2000's seal quite well and do NOT dry out for quite a long period. That's important to me. I don't mind cartridge/converter pens and think they're much easier to clean out than piston fillers, but that's less important. For me, I'll pass on the Jinhao 80 ... BUT I very much appreciate knowing it's out there and just how close to copying the Lamy 2000 it really is. So, from that perspective, I'd say your review was worth it! Thanks!
I was in the 'No' vote. But the people speaks. I have a Jinhao shark. For a $4 pen. it's actually pretty good. And the Jinhao 999 Dragon looks like it can revival Montegrappa 'Desk Trophy'. If only they could redesign the body and the cap,
Really shameful how they knock stuff off like that and do it with such impunity. Anyone with even an iota of integrity should not buy from this manufacturer. In your case it’s ok because you are aiding in the exposure of these villains.
Lamy 2000 - cost $151.00. Jinhao 80 - cost $4.87-$6.64. At $151, it should be a better made fountain pen. Did sime nib smoothing on my 80 nib, and it is a nice writer. Actually enjoy it more than my L2000.
There are tons of piston fillers and some hooded nibs out there. For me the essence of the 2000 is its caping mechanism (which I love), that's probably the most expensive part of the pen, that remains untouched. I'd buy a 80 to use when I'm afraid of damaging my Lamy on the go. For me I'd would only be unfair competition if the Jinhao were a piston and gold nib pen that Jinhao could undoubtedly offer cheaper than Lamy does, that would hurt Lamy but the 80 cannot aspire to do it.
And even then it would be perfectly legal as long as it was branded Jinhao. Only if they slapped Lamy branding on it, and tried to pass it if as a real Lamy 2000 would they cross the legal definition of fraud in the West.
If Jinhao had made an original pen than this 80, then you would have never made this review. You don't have much history of reviewing Jinhao pens despite Jinhao making many original pens. Cloning pen forms is not limited to the Chinese manufacturers only and many reputed manufacturers have done this in the past.
Great review. For $8 I would buy it. How I miss the good old days when I could order stuff cheap from China without having to pay crazy toll fees. It would probably cost me at least $20
They are completely identical on the outside to the naked eye. I see it as a tool for people to pretend they are something different than they really are. It's good for fraud and for cheating people. Jinhao are very reliable, and have some really great unique designs, but these moves are something that leave a black and greasy spot on their reputation in my eyes. One of Jinhaos I bought was an absolute copy of my Cross on the surface. I bought it just out of curiosity. It is more than 2 times lighter and feels completely different in the hand, like a toy. And in these knock-offs the materials just scream 'cheap!' while in their original designs (or they are knock-offs of pens I just don't know) the materials are fine and build quality is decent for some reason. I mean even on this one you can clearly see the seam and irregularity of the texture on the case. Chinese themselves do not see this design issue as a problem. It's their way of business in absolutely every industry. And sometimes it actually works marvels, whether we like it or not.
@@ichirofakename Sort of. They don't mind copying, and even consider it a compliment. However, patents expire fir a reason, which is to allow and encourage copying. If they didn't you would still be paying fifteen dollars a pill for a brand name medicine, instead of fifteen for the bottle. And if they could maintain monopoly forever they wouldn't need to spend billions on research as they could maintain huge margins on existing product/medicine. So there would be lot less progress, as the only research would be done at state and non/profit funded research institution, and even this would take big hit with each economic downturn, as those budgets are the easiest to cut without immediate pain, and so they do. People might not like copying of products, but patent laws are explicitly designed to encourage this. To get a patent you must describe the invention, likely with drawings, and formulas to enable people to copy it after the patent expires. That is the deal. You get limited time of monopoly in exchange for disclosing details to make copying easy later on.
Jinhao copies the design but it cannot fake the essence. What makes Lamy 2000 so unique is not only its appearance, but also its piston mechanism piece of artwork. I would be ashamed if I held this “fake” Lamy 2000 in my hand. I would lose all my inspiration as well.
Seriously? Please…DO come along (as Holmes would say). Put these two pens side by side on a table in a poorly lit room and the audience might start murmuring uneasily. But turn the lights on and take off the cap and unscrew and the section and they’d all just start laughing. A COPY? The nib structure is totally different on the two pens and one is a piston filler while the other is cartridge/converter. What a hoot…a non-problem for sure. Better dismiss the jury. So one is like a German VW Beatle with the little air cooled 4 banger in the back and the other is like a Toyota Prius with the hybrid gas/electric drive up front…or whatever. I typically enjoy your reviews but other than both being made out of black plastic this whole thing is a dead horse. Yawn! Wake me up when something real hits the fan.
I actually purchased my Jinhao 80 before getting my Lamy 2000. While I love my L2K and use it as my daily driver now, the Jinhao was what convinced me to put down the significant cash for it based on how much I liked the form factor and feel in-hand. I wonder if getting more people to try this shape has actually increased Lamy's sales since I can't be they only person who has gone through a similar path to purchasing.
By purchasing this pen, you are encouraging copycats and discouraging innovations.
Well I do not know about the Lamy 2K being influenced by the Jinhao 80, but pretty much at the beginning of my fountain pen journey a few years ago, I purchased a TWSBI Diamond 580 knockoff by Rungao to see, whether or not I liked the shape and size. I did and then purchased the regular 580, currently inked with Diamine Oxford Blue and one of my go to pens. I also have the pleasure to own a Lamy 2000, but I bought this one blind because of it's reputation.
@@libertyintegritytruth there will always be that...I refused to get a 2000 forever...I just finally got one last week after getting a few Jinhao 80s to see if they were actually comfortable for my giant hands.
@@libertyintegritytruth Some old dead dude is rolling in his grave right now because all these pen manufacturers stole his invention of putting ink in a stick and writing with it. You should gather up all your pens and burn them in shame so that the universe can be set right.
this seems identical to how I convinced myself to get a L2K. There was no way I could justify paying so much for a pen otherwise. Not everyone has a FP buddy they can use to try before they buy
Hi David! You sounded a bit under the weather in the video, so I wanted to make sure you know that we all love your videos! They make the day of many of us fountain pen enthusiasts better!
100% Even though this has kicked up a bit of a debate in the comments, I don't think anyone could fault David's consistently excellent reviewing skills.
I was very interested to see this review. It’s amazing how well Lamy hides the piston knob, and the difference in quality is really unmistakable.
I’ve just stopped buying Chinese made products in general. Thank-you for bringing my attention to this Chinese brand to avoid.
I have a Lamy 2K so I am not going to buy the other. Still, I have a few Jinhao pens and like them. This is certainly a good alternative for some people. Cheaper pens keep getting better and better but lately also more expensive.
So true, I've bought jinhao and hero pens for a dollar most of my life. Now those same pens are like 12 bucks lol even more! Crazy
I have a 2K and still bought the 80 out of curiosity. The 80 is really good as the body texture feels great in hand and the nib is all right. It writes differently than a 2K and the all black sets it apart from Lamy.
I have a Lamy 2000 macralon with a medium oblique nib. I ordered a red and a green Jinhao 80 to complement the Lamy as they don’t make those colours. The fact that Jinhao has copied the Al Star /Safari nib set up means I can change those for stub or oblique nibs .
Great comparison review. Just one small thing I spotted. At 4:23 you demonstrate the piston knob on the Lamy. Then at 4:36 you turn the two pens to show the bottom metal inserts and it looks like at 4:48 it looks like you misidentify the Jinhao as the Lamy.
I noticed the same thing, I think the "brushed" look is actually just the unpolished metal stock whereas the Lamy has its end polished.
The Lamy 2000 is still on my wishlist. I do have some Jinhao pens (X450 and X750) and I really like them! They are good writers for sure. I wouldn't buy the 80 as a substitute for the Lamy 2K, but I will consider buying it as a great pen for the money.
ik ben best wel tevreden over de kwaliteit van lamy, ze doen er echt wel wat aan om de pennen uniek te laten ogen en voelen
ze zijn ook makkelijk als er iets mis is, even mailtje sturen en ze repareren je pen gratis
When you put up your poll, I wasn’t sure which option to choose. I think your decision not to review the Jinhao alone was appropriate. It’s fair to call out Jinhao for copying the Lamy, and you still managed to do a just appraisal of its merits. Nicely balanced and nuanced solution to the dilemma.
I got a jinhao and then bought a proper Lamy 1.1 stub nib for it. I'm really enjoying the nib
David, I was concerned about it being a copy but also very curious and looked forward to your analytical comparison. Love the way you went through the comparison and helps summarise that although much cheaper it is not a replacement for the classic Lamy 2000
Excellent video. I agree that it is not ethical to steal designs or information from other companies. Great programming as usual.
I see this type of pen as variations on a design. there are enough differences in the guts of the Jinhao 80 to consider it to be a different pen than the LAMY. The popularity of the Jinhao lies in the low price point, good construction and feel in the hand, but most importantly the ability to swap a variety of nibs - especially wider ones for most non asian users. it writes beautifully no matter what you put on it. it is a strange sort of flattery to the LAMY, being similar in style yet different, and in the end encouraging buyers to raid the LAMY stack of nibs- cursive in particular.
Indeed. I've fitted a Lamy Left Handed nib to mine, and I'm very happy with it.
Just my 2 cents, and purely my opinion :)…
Yes, except Jinhao can make their own pen with all those features without being almost identical to every other brand out there, this isn’t exclusive to Jinhao but to all chinese copies. Of course they could look similar but what chinese copies do is blatantly steal the appearances of other brands rather than tweaking it to be their own, an example of a copy that i think is acceptable is the Jinhao 159 because they at least bothered to change the clip of the pen, but the Jinhao80 and Majohn A1 are near exact copies in terms of appearances to the Lamy 2000 and Pilot capless which i feel isn’t acceptable. You could argue that the internals are different but Lamy and especially Pilot for the capless have put in a lot of thought and time into the exterior to their respective pens maybe even more so for the exterior of the capless than the internals. Therefore i feel that its not really a variation or compliment to the name brands but rather an attempt to steal customers and devalue products from the brands that are innovating. Honestly, how many times have you heard someone say, ‘i cannot afford a Lamy 2000 for now so i’m going to get a Jinhao80 until i can afford a Lamy 2000’ vs ‘Why would i spend $200 on a Lamy 2000 when the Jinhao80 looks the same as is a good writer.’ This only disincentivises name brands to continuously innovate and will be worse off for the fountain pen community in the long run.
sorry for the long comment!
The end of your comment and the comment from archivist17 also proves the point that it is not a compliment or variation but an attempt to steal customers. if the Jinhao 80 did not exist the only choice for us would be to buy the actual Lamy 2000 which would benefit Lamy way more than just half of us buying nibs. And any action from Lamy to reduce the number of people buying clones like increasing the prices of nibs so its no longer worth buying a clone, or facilitating all repairs and replacements so nibs are no longer available to be sold to the public would just make them look bad and more troublesome for Lamy’s actual customers.
The thing us, I dont want a LAMY. That they indeed do nothing but variations of the same theme doesnt bother me.
@@stefanwood2182 yeah but that’s exactly the point, if Jinhao made a pen that you liked then they could make their own pen rather than stealing the design of Lamy or other brands it wouldn’t change their customers, maybe even gain more customers.
While I understand that copying is just bad, I also find it egregious that Lamy is charging an absurd amount for the 2000. Sure you can say lamy has the safari, but you have to agree that the safari is ugly, or at least not as pretty as the 2000. And it isn't that cheap either.
I think these Chinese copies has more value that just making these pens available to the budget constraint. For one, it would light a fire under lamy to make some new pens. The dialog copy, as terrible as it was, probably played a part in leading to a development of dialog cc. And my word the cc is a beautiful pen.
The majohn A1 is a frighteningly good copy of the pilot VP - and even offered a clipless variant with a small rollstop. That will probably play a role in getting pilot to come up with something better than the silly LS.
And as of now, the only way to get a retractable fountain pen below 50 is literally both these Chinese pens. Why are the big companies gatekeeping fountain pens that people can use daily behind high price tags? Even platinum has the gall to price their plasticity, basically stamped steel preppy nibbed curidas out of reach to students.
I have to agree with this, fountain pens from the big companys are ludicrously overpriced and they need some competition because the way it looks the companys have all agreed to keep the prices high
and for the most part you cant say its craftsmanship or materials cost as the materials are almost nothing and the majority of the pen is mass produced
yes I can get a beautifuly hand designed and turned pen from a local manufacturer for 1/4 the price of something like the lamy 2000 (and I have) but its not on a large enough scale to provide competition to the larger brands
You have a *lot* of other Lamy pens that are more affordable though, not just the Safari. As for the Safari being ugly, that's a subjective statement. I really like the design of the Safari, and I probably prefer the Lx to the 2000 visually.
I do think that fountain pens are quite expensive in general, but at the end of the day it is a niche market for enthusiasts so a high price is not surprising. Lamy is actually on the better end of the spectrum by offering adorable options.
These pens are great. And they come in so many great color varieties now.
Thanks for the video! An interesting comparison for sure. Though at first I thought it seemed pointless for the pen to look almost exactly like a Lamy 2000 from the outside, I suppose copying just the design has given the pen more exposure and sales even if it is just because it sparked so many people's curiosity (including my own). Though I understand Jinhao's point of view on this decision, I also struggle with the idea that they just "take" other company's designs they worked long and hard on to make a quick buck (in case of their design copy pens)! With that said, though I personally do not buy the "copy" pens, I also cannot deny I am always intrigued to see what the companies did with them. 🤷♀
A very fair review considering your reservations. One has to ask, is the difference between the Jinhao and Lamy really worth $192? At what point are you getting a better pen and not just buying a brand name?
Right I was wondering the same thing, as well.
I find myself torn here because I can definitely see both sides of the argument, For and Against look-alike clones.
Thanks for the comparison! I am looking at getting a Lamy 2000 and happened to run across the Jinhao. I was considering getting the Jinhao because I can get it in green but mostly to see if I like the form factor before I spend the money on the Lamy. I figure if I like it and get the Lamy too then the Jinhao may be a good knock around pen for when I don't want to risk damage or loss of the Lamy. Anyway, we run into the same conflicts in the knife edc world with Chinese companies either making complete forgeries of knives, including the branding, or at least taking some of the primary design cues from other companies. Thanks again!
I have a Lamy and guessed correctly
The edge of the cap and pen texture gave it away
One thing to add about the Jinhao 80 is that they make them in several fun colors that I think many Lamy 2000 lovers wished that the Lamy is available in. That's the main draw of the Jinhao for me! While I will likely never get one for myself, I also heard that the Jinhao takes Lamy cartridges, converters, and nibs so the user could technically Frankenstein the Jinhao into an almost Lamy pen with those upgrades... While the two pens look practically the same, I don't think that folks who are buying the Jinhao 80 are looking for a Lamy 2000 replacement; it feels to me like the two pens are made for entirely different sections of the market. I enjoyed your very detailed comparison of the two pens very much, thanks for the analysis!
Possibly many customers in their home market might not even realize it is modeled on the Lamy 2000.
@@martinlebl631 actually they did market it as a cheaper alternative of l2k. i bought one just for the lols
The real question is - Are Jinhao (x159, x750, x350etc) still better option than the likes of Lamy Safari & TWSBI Eco?
I like the Jinhao 80, and love the Jinhao x159...big improvement on the older 159s!
Although a blatant copy, the target audience of both pens are very different given the price points.
It is very far from a blatant copy.
Here's a thought, did the Lamy 2000 rip off the look of the PaperMate Flair Felt Tip pen?
The silver on the back of my pens barrel does not have a brushed finish, it’s just smooth.
I think he mixed up those two. If you paid attention to when he was showing the piston fill right before, it seems like he was calling the Lamy a Jinhao and vice versa.
@@Birdnerd1968 I’m pretty sure he had em’ right, can you give me a time stamp?
@@msshaffer5 around 4:23 he's demonstrating the piston and it's the one on the top. Then he switches them to the backs/bottoms and what was on top (Lamy) becomes the one on the left side. Then he talks about the brushed finish of the Lamy while pointing to the right one.
What's weird is my Lamy looks like the right one with very fine parallel scratches on it. But it's also very old so those might be from use.
Fine review. Thank you for all the effort you put into these. I own three L2K's and two J80's and much prefer the Jinhao. As far as copying goes, is there any pen manufacturer that hasn't copied the Sheaffer Balance? Or anyone that has not copied the Parker hooded nib? Or any pens that don't use some variant of Waterman's capillary feed? Isn't the Lamy 2000 using a piston fill that they did not originate and the cap retaining lugs look suspiciously like those of a Sheaffer PFM and Imperial. All that said, Lamy makes a damn fine pen but I enjoy Jinhao more.
Using the standard Lamy nib instead of a 2000-style nib is a gigantic difference, and a sizable improvement in my eyes.
Agreed. By the way, is that really your name or is it a fake name, Fakename?
@@donbrownist My last name is an homage to a scene in The Simpsons, where Homer writes "Fake Name" on some form, and the woman behind the counter calls him "Mister Fah-kuh-nah-me". I wanted to add a Japanese first name, and instantly thought of the former Seattle great, Ichiro.
Outstanding. !!!
David, is there discoloration on the grip section of your stainless steel Lamy Studio? I have that exact pen, and was curious why your grip looks discolored.
BTW- Great review on the Lamy 2K clone.
I noticed that as well and added the pen to my "to be cleaned" pile.
I don't see this as a problem at all, we're talking about the same visual design and that's it. There isn't anything illegal about that anywhere in the world. If we're on this topic, we also should acknowledge that the Lamy 2000 has been in production for over half a century, and in that time all they've done with it was jack up the price and develop QC issues.
I deeply despise copycats and knockoffs. In this case, I even think those people are thieves, nothing more, nothing less.
You are confusing counterfeiting, a despicable theft, with the perfectly ethical operation of patent expiration.
Patents are essentially a monopoly, which is seen as a necessary means to make research and development a profitable investment. It is an advance given to the initial enterprise to recover its costs. The advance granted is considered more than sufficient to establish an industry and build a reputation with consumers. Next, intellectual property is released in the public domain so that all of humanity can benefit from innovations that improve the lives of all of us.
It is this second stage which, wrongly, gives rise to moral outrage. But it is the agreement, an ethical one, and it was established for the benefit of all.
In the past, before patents, innumerable inventions were kept secret not to get stolen, consequently lost without anyone benefiting. This is why patent were put in place and operate the way they do, despite the misplaced loyalty expressed by early adopters who can afford the original. From the start, the system is meant to allow everybody to afford the subsequent iterations of the invention, and to be able to use it, not just a select few.
Lamy more than had its fair share to recover its initial costs and establish itself as a major brand. No injustice is being done by ending its monopoly, as it agreed to. So much the worse for it if, through lack of foresight, it did not prepare for the release of its monopoly, and it has become so accustomed to overcharging for its products that competing items can be offered at prices several orders of magnitude below its own. You can't have your cake―monopoly―and eat it too―complain that it has expired and been released into the public domain.
It's the exploitation in perpetuity that should make your blood boil, not the fact that billions of people can now afford a Lamy 2000/Studio substitute. This is not a tragedy. It is a step forward.
____
A side note: I am not saying that this is your case, but the introduction of a cheaper model is often difficult to accept psychologically when one identifies with a clientele whose bragging rights were lost with the loss of exclusivity. Grief is difficult and goes through the classic stages including anger. There is no shortage of exceptional products, status symbols and trophies on the market. One can feel exceptional in many other ways than owning a high-end Lamy, or even a high-end fountain pen.
@@thorhilda I know the difference between the concepts, and normally I'd say: YES you are right.
In the case of the State of China and Jinghao in particular, they are both extremely impertinent in the way they copy products designed by other companies.
If you go through the lists of products they sell you'll see, they have copied from almost every western company (Montblanc, Lamy, Waldmann, Parker, Waterman, etc.) and produce cheap knockoffs, in many cases, they produce the exact same product, just made out of cheaper materials, or inferior standards. If you tell me: That is legal! I would say: Sure!
FOR ME personally, I think they are a disgrace.
I do not like nazi-like-states (I wrote "nazi" maybe I should've said racist and dictatorial). If it was up to me, I wouldn't buy a thing from them.
@@maximilianschwab9668 I share your concerns about China, but not about how to deal with it.
Consider what you are proposing: "Exceptionally, you deny the set of principles to businesses that you equate with the state that you hate. If it were up to you, you would undermine the economy of the largest population on the planet in order to impose your ideological objections on them, because you despise authoritarian people who impose their ideology on others."
I don't think you realise that your double standard does exactly what you accuse them of. Complex problems can only be solved in stages, all of which are imperfect transitions to a better future. Rejecting the favourable with the unfavourable does not lead to their resolution.
To return to the topic of Figboot's video, far from the politicised discourse, I would remind you that the Jinhao 80 is only superficially similar to the Lamy 2000. It is not a tragedy nor is it the battle that will advance humanity. Jinhao is perfectly within his rights. Those who, since 1966, could not afford a Lamy 2000 can finally enjoy its ergonomy. This takes nothing away from the original.
Thank you for your opinion. Have a nice day.
@@thorhilda I cite: "Complex problems can only be solved in stages, all of which are imperfect transitions to a better future". STALIN would love your assessment. What did he say?: " A couple of dead people are a tragedy, millions just a statistic". For sure you just showed your true ideology.
I am pretty sure you are not concerned with anything that has to do with the Chinese system, I am pretty sure you are part of it, or at least you have been paid to make PR for them.
Platitudes and a lot of words without any meaning, but the one statement I cited from you.
I think in the end, China will probably try something that could destroy all of us. It is like the story of the scorpion and the frog ...sadly, probably nobody will survive that intent.
By hon! 😕
@@maximilianschwab9668 You are incredibly narrow-minded. You've run out of arguments so you pull Stalin, the Chinese Communist Party, scorpions and frogs out of your hat. And what else? Maybe Hitler? Oh yes, you've already done that indirectly with the Nazi quip.
It is easier for you to imagine malice in your interlocutor, to attribute to them complicity with those you hate and fear, than to consider that they might have a valid point. Such motivated reasoning only sunks you deeper into the inhumanity you have transpired so far. The mere prospect of having to revise some of your views, of ironing out some of your moral contradictions, is enough to attempt to belittle me with a sexist moniker. That's very small of you.
Nevertheless, I reiterate my greetings, "Have a nice day", to which I you wish also, "May it be filled with kindness."
wow I guess we have an answer to the great hypothetical matchup: who would win in a fight, between shark, versus puppy
Do the standard Lamy nibs fit the Jinhao?
Yep. Absolutely.
I have a couple of real Lamy 2000s (the brushed steel version and the entire family of the regular version, fountain pen, rollerball, ballpoint, multi-pen, and 0.5 and 0.7 pencils), but I recently bought the Jinhao 80, mostly out of curiosity. While it's a shameless copy, I don't see the Jinhao 80 as competing against the real Lamy 2000 and not a single Lamy 2000 sale will be lost to this knock-off. Someone who wants the real thing will get the real thing. The quality can't even be compared. But it is fierce competition for entry level pens like the Preppy and the Metropolitan. It's also great as an expendable pen for situations where you wouldn't dare carry an expensive pen, including leaving it lying on your desk at the office.
One fun feature is that unlike other pens with Lamy-like nibs that have incompatible dimensions, the Jinhao 80 can use real Lamy Safari nibs! I put a black Safari nib on my all-black Jinhao 80 to complete the look, since the all-black Jinhao 80 has a chrome nib that looks out of place. The only thing is that the Lamy nib costs about as much as the entire Jinhao 80, so you're effectively doubling its price. Also, the Jinhao 80 nib is good enough that it doesn't need to be replaced for functional reasons, unless you want a tipping size that they don't have. The medium black Safari nib that I installed is much broader than any Jinhao nib, so it's more than just a cosmetic upgrade.
I also bought the color versions, which feel much less like a knock-off. When it's blue or brown, you can't be accused of trying to look like you're carrying a real Lamy. And the brown goes well with a traveler's journal.
Jinhao makes surprisingly good clones.
I bought the Jinhao 80 because of these reviews. The Lamy 2000 will never be in my pen budget. Unfortunately my J80 is sooooo frustrating. It is such a hard start that I hate to use it. I have cleaned it and still have trouble getting it started. Once I can finally get it flowing it is a smooth writer but the time and frustration is so not worth it. Why do the inexpensive Varsity pens write immediately but this pen takes submersion and repeated attempts to get it going?? Urg!
I bought a Lamy 2000 several years ago, and it didn't write well. I sent it to have the nib swapped out, and I still didn't like it. Maybe it was just the small sweet spot of that particular nib. So, I would like to try the Jinhao to see if I like the way it writes better since I got rid of the Lamy 2000.
I damaged the nib beyond repair trying to get it to write, also the clip fell out and I lost the spring.
I find all this handwringing over copying pens to be tiresome to be honest and a lot of it is based on anti-Chinese sentiment. I have lots of pens in my collection that pretty much look and feel identical except for the filling mechanisms: Montblanc 146, Pilot Custom 743, Pilot Custom 823 (Smoke), Platinum President, Sailor 1911L etc. But I don’t hear anyone complaining about the big brands all making virtually the same cigar shaped, black plastic pen with gold trim! Where is the faux outrage and IP infringement comments for these pens. I totally agree with Doug “Inkquiring Minds” on this one. There are enough differences between the two for the Jinhao 80 to be regarded as an inspired by pen. Don’t get me wrong I love the Lamy 2k (I have 6 in different nib widths and finishes) but I also enjoy the Jinhao 80, which comes in colours like blue, brown, red and green and I don’t have to pay £500 for the privilege of owning them! Let’s be honest the cost of the Lamy 2k LE Bauhaus blue and brown is ridiculous. The Jinhao fine nibs on these pens are very good. Smooth with a tad of feedback so I’ve not swapped them out for my Lamy nibs, as yet. The 80 is a well made, great pen for its price point but a Lamy 2k it is not and never will be. There’s no reason as fountain pen enthusiasts that we can’t enjoy both and accept that they are similar, but at the same time two very different pens.
I don't think 'anti-Chinese' sentiment has anything to do with it. It's a cheap knock-off on a Lamy 2000, period. Don't forget iphones are made in China. They're quite capable of the highest quality production standards, but you're going to pay a price for it just like anywhere else. An $8 pen is all the quality that $8 will buy you. I like iphones, I don't like cheap knock-offs.
@@jaystone4816 With regards to the anti-Chinese sentiment I disagree, I was speaking generally and not just about this particular pen. As I said there appears to be a double standard in operation regarding how Chinese pens are viewed and those of more established brands. The majority of pens on the market today are knock offs from previous ones, whether that’s in terms of the filling mechanism or aesthetics. How many Duofold clones are out there from reputable western brands or copies of the Montblanc 146? They don’t get the same disparaging “cheap knock off” comments. That’s the point I’m making. I happen to like iPhones too and I’m fortunate enough to be able to have not only an iPhone but also expensive pens in my collection but not everyone is as lucky. These pens appeal to a particular market that can’t or won’t pay for the more expensive premium pen brands available. This approach democratises the hobby making it more affordable and accessible to a wider audience. I don’t see anything wrong with that. You may view it as a cheap knock off but I think they’ve made minor changes to a very popular pen that creates a different writing experience. Watch Doug Rathbun’s Inkquiring Minds video and you’ll see he prefers the Jinhao 80 to the Lamy 2K that he sold. Horses for courses. I prefer my Lamy 2000 and I think it is a superior pen but that doesn’t mean that I can’t appreciate the Jinhao 80 for what it is, and without the condescension.
@@LisaPottinger isn’t the Montblanc 146 even a design copy from an earlier pen?
@@deloceanophoto It might be. I’m not sure to be honest. It wouldn’t surprise me if it is. There are so many black pens with gold trim it’s hard to keep up.
I may have bought the wrong name, but I tried the jinhao with the lamy nib, and it was terrible
I don't get why you would copy the design and then omit everything that makes the LAMY 2000 attractive. If you're going to make a completely different pen, why not come up with a new look for it?
Because people like the 2000 form factor, and to engineer the key features of the 2000 would be prohibitively expensive.
I have this Jinhao and absolutely love it. Although I'm generally not into copies, it isn't a counterfeit or pretending to be a Lamy 2000 -- nobody thinks it is. It is a VERY close copy, though. Still, its a great great pen for the price, and I don't think Lamy is going to be sweating it much.
On the outside. Entirely different beast on the inside.
@@martinlebl631 very true, even with the cap off it's obviously different.
4:41 I think you confused them there.
I'm probably gonna brush that jinhao myself at home!
Thanks for another excellent video. Having patents and copyrights expire has long been used as a way to promote enhancements and innovations. This does appear to show a different twist to the design that would not otherwise have never come into being. I don't like the idea of fakes but in the same vein nothing truly just pops out of the ether (Montblanc, Sailor, Platinum, Pilot, etc).
I mean patents expire after relatively short period to promote copying, and price competition. The intention was to reward innovation with short time period of monopoly, to encourage innovation, but make it expire to promote cost competitiveness. This was the explicit reason, so it is not a bug, but the law working as intended.
I love the Lamy 2000 shape, dimensions and weight, but do not like Piston or Vacuum Fillers, so getting a Lamy 2000 "isn't in the cards". I have wanted a Lamy 2000 C/C or Lamy Studio Makrolon, so the Jinhao 80 fulfilled that need. I picked up a Jinhao 80 and added an o-ring to the Section barrel thread tube because there is too much play when threading it on and lacks a substantial "feel" when the barrel is completely tightened down. The Cap clip has too much side to side play and therefore feels flimsy, fragile. The Converter is quite good, holding a little bit more ink than the Lamy Converter and it has the advantage of having a round knob which is easier to turn, especially appreciated when cleaning and flushing the Converter as it makes "quick work" of it. The Section mold lines, easily seen from the side as the Section is rotated, one right in-line with the middle of the nib and the other 180 degrees opposite, drive me nuts. I suspect that the Jinhao 80 will lead to an increase in Lamy nibs purchases and will also ultimately lead to increased Lamy 2000 sales, once one feels one in the hand and finds the dimensions agreeable. I am pretty sure that some have bought a Lamy 2000 "blind" and when they put it in their hand found that they did not like it, or they hated posting the pen, they found it too small. The 13mm Barrel dia. is perfect, not too skinny, not too fat. At an open length of 123.5mm, with a Lamy nib, it should fit most hands, and when posted the Cap opening (14.2mm dia.) shouldn't bite into the web of the hand. A posted length of 154mm/6.0" is perfect. When filled there is no Converter rattle (unlike the Jinhao 51A), it does not strike the inside of the barrel. The Cap seems to be air-tight so there should not be hard-start problems. I found the Jinhao nib to be closer to an , about . The nib is soft, so Brass Shimming it is pretty easy. It's not a bad pen for $8, pretty good, actually, but hardly a threat to the Lamy 2000. Anyone who picks up a Lamy 2000 will immediately be able to tell that it is high quality, feels substantial.
Is it legal to sell these in the US?
Here in Europe you would have to import them by yourself and hope for customs not to check the package, because they will throw it into the trash.
It isnt.... but its not like USPIS is very interested in this.... they're too busy screwing over Apple refurbishers first
Lucky you.
David, you made a mistake in this video. You called the pen the Jinhao 90 in your intro. In the description for the video you titled it the Jinhao 80 also in your writing sample.
Like I said in the survey I don’t care for the L2K so I wouldn’t care about the Jinhao… yet I watched your video 🙃… great job as usual 👍
What the fuzz anyhow? They are not calling it Lamy, different nib, different filling system… it’s more of an homage than a copy IMO. Why all the fuzz here and not the Jinhao 100 or X159? At least Jinhao comes up with colors and fills that gap 😉
These homage can also allow people to try the size before getting the real thing and spending big money. For me I am lucky I can afford the real thing so it’s the other way around, I buy the real thing first then the homage… but I live close by 2 big brick and mortar shops so I can try before spending the big $. Then with the homages I get the colors … so I don’t feel bad having 20 Jinhao Centenial 100 and 5 X159.
bro u are riiiiiiiich
You can tell them apart by the injection molding seam.
It would be hard to mistake one for another from close up. Even before uncapping.
Not sure if you did the 777/599 vs Safari/Al Star. They're also worth checking out, especially the metal version. And the Jinhao feels like isn't trying to be a replica.
Thanks, David. FP nerd drama is good fun. No issue for me. If you want a Lamy 2000 this pen will not substitute
for it, especially when the cap is off or you're inking it up.
There are reasons patents expire. This may be an unpopular view, but shame on Lamy. They've milked this design for decades. On the rare occasion they bless us with a change, like a unique color, the price is ridiculous. Lamy should have been the innovators on their own design.
Finally a good take. Should we shame Sailor for copying the Montblanc, or Montblanc for copying Waterman? If you call the Jinhao a ripoff then all these brands are ripoffs.
“Shame” on Lamy for “milking” something they designed and created??? Interesting.
They do release quite innovative designs every few years... The Lamy 2000, specifically, is their "Montblanc 149", you don't go changing a "perfect" design...
AMEN!!!! MR. Charon
@@jimmybritt8405
Well, yes, it is in fact entirely possible to do this.
I do not know whether or not I would say that LAMY, per se, is guilty of this, but George Lucas and his Star Wars franchise definitely comes to mind as an example.
I used to own a 2000 but it was too wet and wrote too wod for me.
I have avoided the Safari and other iterations of the same design due to the triangular grip, though the nib intrigued me.
The Jinhao 80 is a combination of the two models. Is it a ripoff? Almost and do agree that more time and effort should be spet making original models.
But the price makes it worthwhile for experimentation. And it appears to accept Lamy nibs.
I think if you keep in mind you are not buying an exact copy of the 2000 and have no expectations that the pen will perform at the same level, then, why not try it?
Counterfeit is the easy one because the item is intended to trick you/end user into thinking it is something it isn't. E.G. same looks, packaging, branding, etc to make you think it is from a higher value/different brand. Copy and inspired are a bit more grey, if it looks the same but doesn't have the branding/packaging is it a copy if they change a minor detail is it inspired or does it need to be majorly different with minor similarities? Honestly not sure on the last two.
Thanks for this. I like the all-black 80.
Personally I do not support design rip-offs. I view this as intellectual theft. Now, if a company releases a pen which is inspired by (name) and this pen has its own personality then I reckon that is purely competition and a reasonable commercial practice.
It's a 56 year old design. Well out of any protected period.
I’m not talking about ‘protected periods’. FWIW, those periods can be shortened or as in the case of USA copyright lengthened at the will ot the government of the day.
I’m talking about a company who is to lazy or cheap to create their own design. Sure, use design elements from another manufacturer - no problems. Simply mimicking the vast majority of another design regardless of how old the design may be is lazy. As I said this is my opinion.
Loving these Jinhao 80s. Of course I’d love a 2000, but cannot afford that cost. With these I can also swap in other Lamy nibs. They do require a little bit of attention with a micro mesh pad to get rid of the visible injection moulding seam. I wis Jinhao had dealt with that tiny little detail.
I'm wondering what you think of the Chinese vanishing point pens. For instance the Lanbitou 6051
I never would have bought a VP at retail, but I found use for the Moonman A1 copy, but with no clip. Suits my needs.
@@ichirofakename The fact that Pilot never offered a clipless version in fifty years is baffling, as there is an obvious vocal pent-up demand for it. Also there not some steel nib VPs on Amazon for around $80, although it seems like a grey market import of Japanese territory only models. (Caplets vs. VP branding)
@@ichirofakename I got an A1, albeit with a clip, and it works surprisingly well.
@@martinlebl631 Good for the both of us that they make both a clipped and a clipless version. Unlike Pilot.
@@ichirofakename I know. Unbelievable that Pilot refuses to answer the demand. Especially as it is really a simple change as none of the inner workings needs to be redesigned,, and would infact be cheaper to manufacture. And apropo this is the reason that patents expire, so that if an incumbent is unwilling to improve a product, add a feature, or provide consumer with reasonable price, then an newcomer can legally step in, and provide a cheaper and/or improved copy to satisfy the demand for such an offering. The people that write patent laws knew what they were doing, and they certainly didn't intend to create unlimited monopolies some people believe are due, which serves the companies, but not society at large.
Greetings from Australia.
Good video.
Jinhao have done the same with the Jinhao 82 which is an alleged copy of the Sailor Pro Gear slim.
The pens look great and the more expensive pen has gold fittings and medium nib.
$10 AUD.
The cheaper model ($7) is only available in silver trimmings and fine or extra fine.
I ordered two of the more expensive pens.
It is frustrating because Jinhao has the technology and expertise to produce their own exclusive pens, but seem to push their luck by copying established pens.
My favorite pen in this video is the Shark pen that's been chewed on by a puppy. lol!
Aside from the ethics of making a copy-cat... China can actually make astounding "fakes." They're not all trash (I'm talking across many domains... electronics, watches, other goods... not just pens.) But they can also make trash like this. I wouldn't be surprised if there are some other Chinese "fake" fountain pens that can match the quality of the original. Not saying you should go out and buy one, just letting you know what I've learned about the Chinese market. They can copy at all levels, from similar quality to cheap knock-off. They have the industrial and technical base to do this.
For those on tight budgets, Jinhao is a nice way to get an expensive-looking pen and NOT break the bank so to speak, I have several Jinhao and I like the feel of each one. One of my favorites is the 250 which is an all-metal pen and I got a set of four for about $24 USD in 2017.
I do like the fact that every Jinhao pen that I purchased has come with a converter, and they write fairly smoothly for cheap pens
There are just better pens out there for the price point for a true fountain pen lover that have an identity of their own. The only purpose these ripoffs serve is to appear more expensive than they are. It's basically like buying a fake Louis Vuitton wallet to look rich. Even if it's genuinely well made, there is no integrity in it. There are better writing experiences to be had from legacy fountain pen brands like Lamy itself at the lower price points that write wonderfully and actually stand on their own.
@@REDnBLACKnRED honestly, lamy and pilot brands have great pens. The issue is a lot of us don't have that kind of money. My father used a cheap pen for nearly a decade with no issues until as a child, I decided to destroy it.
@@L4v4molly lol i hope your dad did not decide to beat you up
I don't have a LAMY 2000 and probably never will because I don't like the shape, although the nib is supposedly wonderful. They copied only the part I don't like! So, no interest from me ...
Thank you for the look into this pen.
Now there are Jinhaos 80 in burgundy and blue with gold trims and gold plated nibs. Really nice pens which you can get in Europe for less than 6 euros. I bought both colours and they are a lot of fun and EXCELLENT writers for the price.
I want to be inspired by the quality of the writing instrument. That’s part of the joy of fountain pens. There is nothing inspiring to me about using an $8 Chinese pen that’s a ripoff of an iconic pen. I’d rather have fewer pens that inspire me than multiple that don’t.
I always think of this pen as a baby of a Lamy 2000 and Study.
Since I came across it and bought one it actually has made me kind of want a Lamy 2000. I haven't though because I don't like piston fillers.
not the same material, no metal section, no hooded nib and not a piston fill so not really a copy. i did swap out the nib for a lamy style EF nib from inexpens. it's my everyday pen.
It's so disappointing because they make their own unique pens but they still steal others designs, it's just malicious.
I grappled with the "knock off" aspect, too but finally concluded that by and large there are only so many design factors that fit human hands. For the uninitiated (to the wonderful world of FPs), how many pens so resemble the MB 149 or 146 (black, higher grade resin etc). No wonder MB had to put a trademark snowflake on it. I'd argue that the use of a steel, non-hooded nib, C/C fill take it out of the knock off arena and place it more in the homage category.
The quality of a pen isn't just what it looks like on the outside. It's how well all the components of that pen are. I don't think you can compare the quality of a Montblanc 146 or 149 to just any old black pen.
@@jaystone4816 Oh, don't disagree. My point is that some of the "knock off" flak seems to center on the appearance of a pen but that it takes more than that. For what it's worth, though, I do think the MBs are over rated (or more specifically, overpriced) -- sorta like Mercedes Benz in the US (taxi cabs in a lot of the rest of the world).
@@13noman1 I agree Montblanc is very overpriced, but the quality is there. It's better to buy used in good condition, and there's a lot out there. The double-digit series (12, 14, 22, 24) from the 1960s have fantastic nibs and are reasonably priced. They have a very different "modern" look from the Meisterstuck line today. David reviewed them earlier, so you can check that out if you're interested.
I have both the jinhao leaks ink to the cap if you carry it in you pockets and once you grab it expect inky finger, and is almost impossible to remove that nib but for a $8 pen I guess is worth what you pay for. There is no comparison to the Real lamy smoothness and reliable and can carry it as a daily carry with no leaks or problem. For $8 honestly for a few more dollar you are better of getting a real Safari in my opinion
Not really, the Safari grip turns of plenty of people, and so does the school pen look. It is literally made to feed the German school market, and look it, so it doesn't compete with the higher priced Lamy offerings. Of course it is a bit cheaper in Germany.
Common Lamy! Why don’t you sue, like you did Moonman?
BTW love your reviews, always!
Would like to have a comparison review for best pens to travel on planes. Pilot 823 being one of them. They should be pens that isolate the ink from the pressure change or nib.
As soon as you uncapped it, it's clearly different. I mean, come on! The Lamy contains a hooded nib copied from Parker, a piston filler taken from Pelikan... we can play comparisons all day, if you like. It's by no means unique to Chinese companies, as the multifarious Duofold copies on the market attest. After half a century, a design is fair game, surely? And this Jinhao is an excellent pen, as it happens.
I've now seen a few replies that talk about how different pen companies are already copying each other. Let's be clear, the piston filler concept is a operational part of the pen. Copy it all you want, improve it or even patent it. That's like the engine in a car. We don't go around accusing of all other non-mercedes brands of copying the original Diamler-Benz combustion engine. We do however notice and point at a car if the said manufacturer copies the body curves of a VW beetle to the T. The look of a FP is integral to it's identity, specially when the look's been unique for more than 5 decades. Chinese companies knocking off a EXACT replica are hurting the market. If you could afford a Porsche (or a Lambo or Ferrari or Range Rover, etc.) would you actively criticize those manufactrers the same way? How about the Classic Kitchen Aid mixer? How about the Braun shaver? The Braun Radio? The list goes on and on. Copying PURELY for the sake of ripping off is theft, plain and simple.
You are defending theft.
@@libertyintegritytruth Absolutely not. Just standard industry practice.
@@nerdlogger
Calling it theft is just a stretch.
The problem with Chinese manufacturers is underselling and the typical work conditions for people in the country. The reason theyre able to undersell to begin with.
Knock offs arent great but they don't kill products, because they're knock offs. They don't compare. Anybody buying the J80 over the L2k just doesn't have 100+ laying around, and they aren't going to get close to the same experience. L2k purchases aren't going to tank just because of a Jinhao that doesn't even have close to the same nib.
I certainly don't think that knock offs are "ethical" but calling it flat out theft is almost silly. Lamy is a giant who isnt going to take a real hit from something that is a knock off in exterior design only.
@@edwinbeta2806 the depreciation of general value, cost-performance doesn't just stigmatize Chinese copy manufactures which may serve them the karma, but anyone trying to break in with something new is discouraged if everyone else echoes 'well I can get the not terribly performing copy of expensive product for cheap, what is any different with your original?' of which however argument you put as originator won't be heard because people forget someone has to live off of their creation. I think the danger is here
I am guilty of purchasing Jinhao copies but I also bought the original of their copies where its simply worth the money and respect, where it can be afforded(jinhao 992 and Sailor Procolor, but no modern parker 51 for me and just enjoy Jinhao 86 for nib tuning practice)
I have a Jinhao 80 with a Lamy 1.1 nib and use it with Lamy Turquoise ink cartridges for everyday use and love it.
I bought and enjoy the Jinhao pens and have every intention of getting the Lamy 2000. The Jinhao convinced me I would like and appreciate using the German masterpiece… that is the Lamy 2000.
In my personal opinion, the pen world should stop treating Jin Hao as a legitimate company who makes "alternative" pens, and treat it as a pirate rogue company stealing from others. They could have gone for the market of cheap/affordable pens who write well - nothing wrong with that, actually, that would be fantastic, just using an original or even generic design. Instead they went for the falsification market. That's is a pity.
Nobody who wants a 2000 is going to not buy one because they have an $8 Jinhao. Now, if they had the same everything, and they charged over $100 for it, and people bought it over the Lamy, then you would have a problem. The bottom line is that this does not hurt Lamy a bit. The Parker 51 clones might be one that is harming a company though, but with that ridic price tag, they deserve it.
I’m not mad em’ cause many people cannot afford a $200 pen. They’re just bringing a version of good writing utensils that are affordable for everyone.
look at all the people with a parasocial relationship with Lamy tryna justify their purchases lol
I ended up buying one when they came out with the other colors. Overall an excellent pen for the price but a little too similar to the Lamy 2000 when capped. I would like to see Lamy come out with an economical version of the Lamy 2000. Maybe something as simple as a steel nib variant. If they offered that for $50-$100 it would break the market.
Thanks for this review. This launch is intriguing bc Jinhao may expand the model to include fun colors. While I respect Lamy’s decision to limit the breadth of color options for this flagship brand, every year I hope the special edition will include a pop of color.
I love Jinhao pens. BTW, the black one as far as I know is a Jinhao 40. The price is quite steep.
One thing about the Jinhao 80 is it at least comes in lots of colors, which the Lamy 2000 does not. So yes, it'd be nice if the form wasn't almost a 1:1 copy, but they do at least offer some variety of that form factor that Lamy themselves do not.
👍
External similarities only. No piston, no ink window. Won't buy the Jinhao as there is no need since I have a proper 2000.
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Thanks for the review and the comparison, Dave. Like you, I'm not in favor of knock-offs and even less thrilled with the working "conditions" of the Chinese employees. That said, I do have a few Jinhao's in my "collection" - the X450, X750 and a couple of the Sharks. They seem to be decent pens and worth the prices I paid for them but they don't make me stand up and cheer.
I'm curious as to how well the Jinhao 80 seals. My Lamy 2000's seal quite well and do NOT dry out for quite a long period. That's important to me. I don't mind cartridge/converter pens and think they're much easier to clean out than piston fillers, but that's less important.
For me, I'll pass on the Jinhao 80 ... BUT I very much appreciate knowing it's out there and just how close to copying the Lamy 2000 it really is. So, from that perspective, I'd say your review was worth it! Thanks!
Thanks, great video.
I wish Jinhao gave us more nib sizes such as m or b. They’re quick on copying pens but never provide the range of size nibs the originals do.
Don't even take it as a gift.
I was in the 'No' vote. But the people speaks. I have a Jinhao shark. For a $4 pen. it's actually pretty good. And the Jinhao 999 Dragon looks like it can revival Montegrappa 'Desk Trophy'. If only they could redesign the body and the cap,
Really shameful how they knock stuff off like that and do it with such impunity. Anyone with even an iota of integrity should not buy from this manufacturer. In your case it’s ok because you are aiding in the exposure of these villains.
Why? Because it looks the same on the outside? This is different pen.
Lamy 2000 - cost $151.00. Jinhao 80 - cost $4.87-$6.64. At $151, it should be a better made fountain pen. Did sime nib smoothing on my 80 nib, and it is a nice writer. Actually enjoy it more than my L2000.
Great summary btw
There are tons of piston fillers and some hooded nibs out there. For me the essence of the 2000 is its caping mechanism (which I love), that's probably the most expensive part of the pen, that remains untouched. I'd buy a 80 to use when I'm afraid of damaging my Lamy on the go. For me I'd would only be unfair competition if the Jinhao were a piston and gold nib pen that Jinhao could undoubtedly offer cheaper than Lamy does, that would hurt Lamy but the 80 cannot aspire to do it.
And even then it would be perfectly legal as long as it was branded Jinhao. Only if they slapped Lamy branding on it, and tried to pass it if as a real Lamy 2000 would they cross the legal definition of fraud in the West.
If Jinhao had made an original pen than this 80, then you would have never made this review. You don't have much history of reviewing Jinhao pens despite Jinhao making many original pens. Cloning pen forms is not limited to the Chinese manufacturers only and many reputed manufacturers have done this in the past.
Great review. For $8 I would buy it. How I miss the good old days when I could order stuff cheap from China without having to pay crazy toll fees. It would probably cost me at least $20
They are completely identical on the outside to the naked eye. I see it as a tool for people to pretend they are something different than they really are. It's good for fraud and for cheating people.
Jinhao are very reliable, and have some really great unique designs, but these moves are something that leave a black and greasy spot on their reputation in my eyes.
One of Jinhaos I bought was an absolute copy of my Cross on the surface. I bought it just out of curiosity. It is more than 2 times lighter and feels completely different in the hand, like a toy. And in these knock-offs the materials just scream 'cheap!' while in their original designs (or they are knock-offs of pens I just don't know) the materials are fine and build quality is decent for some reason. I mean even on this one you can clearly see the seam and irregularity of the texture on the case.
Chinese themselves do not see this design issue as a problem. It's their way of business in absolutely every industry. And sometimes it actually works marvels, whether we like it or not.
From my time in China I can confirm that their views on intellectual property are quite different from those of us in the West.
@@ichirofakename Sort of. They don't mind copying, and even consider it a compliment. However, patents expire fir a reason, which is to allow and encourage copying. If they didn't you would still be paying fifteen dollars a pill for a brand name medicine, instead of fifteen for the bottle. And if they could maintain monopoly forever they wouldn't need to spend billions on research as they could maintain huge margins on existing product/medicine. So there would be lot less progress, as the only research would be done at state and non/profit funded research institution, and even this would take big hit with each economic downturn, as those budgets are the easiest to cut without immediate pain, and so they do. People might not like copying of products, but patent laws are explicitly designed to encourage this. To get a patent you must describe the invention, likely with drawings, and formulas to enable people to copy it after the patent expires. That is the deal. You get limited time of monopoly in exchange for disclosing details to make copying easy later on.
Jinhao copies the design but it cannot fake the essence. What makes Lamy 2000 so unique is not only its appearance, but also its piston mechanism piece of artwork.
I would be ashamed if I held this “fake” Lamy 2000 in my hand. I would lose all my inspiration as well.
They clearly do it on purpose, don't care, and know there won't be consequences. Disappointed but not surprised.
Seriously? Please…DO come along (as Holmes would say). Put these two pens side by side on a table in a poorly lit room and the audience might start murmuring uneasily. But turn the lights on and take off the cap and unscrew and the section and they’d all just start laughing. A COPY? The nib structure is totally different on the two pens and one is a piston filler while the other is cartridge/converter. What a hoot…a non-problem for sure. Better dismiss the jury. So one is like a German VW Beatle with the little air cooled 4 banger in the back and the other is like a Toyota Prius with the hybrid gas/electric drive up front…or whatever. I typically enjoy your reviews but other than both being made out of black plastic this whole thing is a dead horse. Yawn! Wake me up when something real hits the fan.