VLOG 003 - RWD Cars won't kill you during winter (BMW M135i) - Joe Achilles
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I get loads of emails/messages asking me about the handling of Rear Wheel driven BMW's during the winter, many potential M135i/M235i/M140i/M240i customers are worried these cars will be too frisky/dangerous during our winter months. I hopefully demonstrate that with all traction/stability aids turned on, the 320bhp rwd M135i is completely tame and manageable, even being driven by an idiot.
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Cheers Joe
I got my first rear wheel drive car last August, a 330e.
I've learnt a few things. Don't use sport mode and boot it off a roundabout in the rain. Arse about on empty roundabouts and power out of corners in the wet to get a feel for the 'tail' at slower speeds.
Respect the power!
I drive a 116i. While not as powerful as an M series ofcourse, it survived snow and ice perfectly fine. There was only one instance where all 4 wheels lost traction while I was turning very slowly, black ice, but I gained traction soon enough and continued fine! RWD definitely won't kill you depending on the severity but always be careful!
Totally concur Joe. My tyres are towards the end of their life yet the beast still performs as you demonstrate. Lightyears away from the BM I owned 22 years ago. Well done!
I live/work in a ski resort in Canada, and my daily driver is an M135i. Add winter tires between November and April and getting around is fine - nobody should doubt it's perfectly possible to get through winter driving conditions in a RWD car.
My F20 is pretty good even just driving in the snow.
A lot more predictive than my previous 10 bmws from the older generations. I love bmws :)
Very interesting ! In addition to the Traction Control, the weight repartition is almost 50/50 on the 135I. Which should also helps reducing rear wheels to spin too rapidly.
I drove last friday my M135I on 10cm snow roads, traction control off, with good winter tires (Conti TS850P), and this was just great ! As you said, it is a nicely controllable drift. Nothing to be scared about, and this is my first RWD car !
Cheers from France :)
Thank you Joe for this video, now I’m 100% sure I’ll go for the RWD m235i!!!
Great advice here. I had a 2.8 Injection Ford Capri back in the day and whilst it taught me how to correct a rear end slide it also leaves me with nightmares about booting my G31 530d in a bend (and never taken it on a track to test it). I feel more confident about speed in the twisty bits after watching this! Also quite tempted by an M140i as a second car just for fun..
Nice video, agree with it all ... way back when most cars were RWD without any aids, even with little power they took some skill to drive (I found out to my cost at 17 with an MG midget!). There is some notion these days that RWD cars are impossible to live with in winter though so well done for quashing some of that. Think young people today just aren't used to it! I'm taking delivery of an M140i on 1st March so can't wait! I am coming from a golf R so will miss the incredible levels of grip but looking forward to being able to 'play' again! I also agree with some of the comments that it's a different story in snow ... some RWD cars can be difficult these days in the snow with their super wide tyres etc. With all the electronic systems it's more a case of getting stuck and not being able to move at all rather than a safety issue, they then put the traction control off to get some grip and end up in all sorts of bother! A lot of people seem to swear by winter tyres now but for the few days of actual snow on the roads I doubt whether it's worth it! Keep up the good work.
My 1st RWD car was a Ford Escort 1.3L Saloon mk2 1980V. My F20 has Xdrive. I've driven a mk2 Transit lwb with Quad rear wheels,Toyota 1000,Vxl Frontera in RWD.
My BMW 125d wasnt dangerous when driving in the winter but it was when on any sort of incline. Rear end would just spin and it had new all season tyres on it.
100% agreed with you Joe, but you drove in this video without ice and snow. Yesterday I was shocked by the permanent wheelspin at 50 km/h at a snowy autobahn with my 125d.
Actually you must be very careful with small rwd cars at icy and snowy roads, don't forget that.
Greets from Germany :)
Cheers man! Thankfully we get very little ice and maybe two days of snow every year. But even something like a Golf R on summer tyres would suffer badly on ice and snow I guess, unless it had some good winter tyres fitted.
Totally agree, I have a Nissan Terrano 2 which I mostly drive in RWD mode even though it doesn't have tons of electronics. It's only when there's a considerable amount of snow when I turn it into the 4x4 mode.
I use to have a 3.2 vauxhall omega and the first time I turned the traction control off I got a bit of a surprise flooring it uphill on a dual carriageway the thing broke traction at 50 :O . Got a 11 plate 520d now and its still sideways but damn petrol cars are so much more fun at going sideways.
Another great video and nice to see that RWD doesn't mean instant death 😂👍
Every time Joe uploads a video I light up with joy!
Well thats great to hear :-) Thank you!
Excellent video Joe as usual. I wanted to believe that a modern BMW would be more manageable than older models. I have owned two E34 M5s and they were a significant handful in the wet. I also had a 2007 335i on run flats and had to abandon it one year in the snow. However within a month of picking up my M140i I got stuck on an incline trying to leave a car park after a significantly heavy fall of hailstones. I had a Fiests behind me and as I span the rear wheels looking for traction I started to slide backwards, my passengers had to get out and push which was very embarrassing. It appears the spectre of rear wheel drive traction issues has not fully gone away. I still have run flats unfortunately so will be deleting them as soon as possible. Suffice to say with all these cold snaps and threat of snow I have invested in a set of snow socks.
Good stuff Joe, random sidenote....glad I'm not the only M135i with streaky side windows!
Honestly made me feel so much better, I almost bought an s3 due to me potentially wrapping it round a tree haha
you still alive?
@@paulclark6745 don't think so
Most important having the right tyres for winter , and summer ,
Your comment on the E36 M3 took me back to when I owned one, it demanded total respect.
Yeah so true, I drove my mates Z3 M coupe the other day (basically the same car), I needed to grow a pair quickly haha
Joe Achilles what's also funny Joe is I said to the wife not long after I got the car that it basically scared the crap out of me' her reply, bless, 'why did you buy it then'.. Needless to say I got used to it. Current Bmw ride is an old but very minty E46 330d sport touring, still puts a smile on my face and still does the family duties admirably.
Great video Joe! I'm planning on buying a 125i and was a little apprehensive about the RWD aspect (though at the same time quite excited). Your video definitely put me at ease of knowing that I won't spin out in a surprise emergency situation where I may floor it without being prepared. w00t
Keep the content up Joe! one of my fav youtubers and definitely deserve way more than 12k subs.
Thanks man working on making that number rise...
I'm so glad you put this video together. I haven't found any other videos on TH-cam which explain how the traction control systems work on RWD cars as well as you did. Good job! :)
Kristian Crowshaw Cheers man, it seems to be very popular in the couple hours it's been live so couldn't be happier 👌
Great video Joe, reminds me of my old E30 325i that I had back in the early 90s, no tech but great fun even in the snow or rain! you had to keep your wits about you.
Ohh the E30 325i is my absolute favourite BMW, yeah enough people managed to keep them on the road back then haha. Cheers man
Mine too. My first one was tricked out with full Hartge engine upgrade exhaust and suspension and Racelogic flappy paddle gearbox (yes that was back in around 1996). I sold it some years later when I started trading cars and have regretted it since! Some years whilst in the trade an opportunity came up to acquire another mint 325i which stupidly I sold again. Now to get a minter will cost an arm and a leg!
I really enjoyed this Joe, thank you! very interesting having heard how twitchy BMWs are!
I have a 2013 C63, which I had always felt was going to kill me but have since learned that the control systems are damn good! I do maintain that some cars' control systems are a little more relaxed or less clever than others but I totally agree that nowadays, we do have more of a safety net than the cars of the late 90s!
hey man! Happy to say I got my M135i last week. Although I knew I wanted it before watching your videos, you really helped me raise my hype by a lot!
Pato Elosua great to hear man 👌👊
Two Vlogs in a week Joe!!! Noice one 👍🏻 I tried planting my M2 with everything on, same result. Back end out but ridiculously controllable. Thanks for the post.
Great video Joe. I did manage to spin my E92 M3 with the systems in Dynamic mode - admittedly in mixed grip and cold conditions at 115 mph on the fast left hander at Bruntingthorpe. Now I am not a drift master but I have done a fair bit at lower speeds, and I was unable to collect it when it started to go. I spent a few decades driving powerful RWD cars before electronic aids, and I am quite happy to drive something like a Caterham which doesn't have them. However in a car which has them I always leave the aids fully on when driving on the public road. I try to drive as though the aids were not present, so as not to have the yellow light flashing, unlike your excellent demo of full throttle on a tight bend.
Great insight Joe. The lack of any oil or water temp gauges bugs me every time I get in my 135! I cannot believe they are not there in a car pitched at drivers.
+Wade Beaumont Cheers man! Yeah that's just silly, even the M2 didn't have more than a digital engine temp that took 10 mins to find through various menus... madness
The RWD with a 50/50 weight distribution like the bmw's is perfect one snow. It is so balanced!
Typical BMW driver. Misbehaving whenever he gets the chance ;)
Haha I don't know what you're talking about ;-)
Solid consumer info
Great video it's hard to find out what effect these systems actually have until someone like you makes such good content about it.
Hits home with me as I had a 1998 import Nissan Silvia S15 Spec R for three years, 250bhp on standard boost, no traction control or stability aids, LSD as standard and about 1200kg. Enjoyed the car until I span one wet morning (I think on spilt fluid) exiting a large main roundabout, driving sedately at low rpm slightly squeezed the throttle a little more after being overtaken by a van in the next lane. Car span sideways like it was on ice into a lampost towards the front of the drivers door. Steering wheel ended up in the middle of the car I had a lucky escape but snapped a tibia and smashed a foot.
Just got my 230i, loving it so far but not brave enough to intentionally push to check the driving aids like you have in the video :)
Still driving my mk7 TDI Golf when temperatures drop towards zero, has winter tyres fitted, but selling that car in the spring. Next winter I will get some winter tyres for the 230i as a precaution. Arguably not needed on either car but the rubber stays softer at cold temperatures and the grip improvement in those conditions is noticeable so for me there is no reason not to, for the sake of a few hundred £.
I’m sorry but this doesn’t make sense. Driving sedately and the steering wheel winding up in the middle of the car is not compatible.
Good idea for a vid, I’d be interested to see this in proper British winter conditions, around 0 and pissing down, commute to work at 7am when it’s still pitch black. I had an e46 m3 and an s2000 a while back, and those cars didn’t fill you with confidence in those conditions :P and last thing you want is your car to step out when you’re rushing to work and didn’t have the morning coffee just yet 🤣 but a barely controlled unintentional drift wakes you up like nothing else :P
I have had two new BMW in the last 4 years but there was never as fun as my second car I had a 535 petrol H,Reg it was about 4 years old when I had it talk about been a hand full but man that was fun.
Ohh yeah I can imagine, the 5's and 7's are great sideways machines due to their longer wheelbase, loved the E34 (?) 535i :-)
Joe Achilles all I remember is you could turn the steering wheel about a quarter of a turn left to right at top end and she would still be going in a straight line.
Even More Joe?!?!?! Oh my god, dreams do come true... (imma like the fuck outta this)
I know I cant stop!!! Haha
Great video! Just finalised my spec on an M240i, can't wait to get it. Your videos were the big inspiration, particularly the M2 vs M240i video. Cheers!
Brilliant video. Just what I needed to convince me to buy an M car as I’d been doubting this issue. Awesome. Thanks 👍
Another great vlog Joe and could not agree with you more! RWD in winter in a modern car shouldn't put anyone off, and Sport+ mode on the M135i/M140i is a brilliant half way house between having fun but still having a decent safety net - even in Sport+ not once has it let me get fully out of control but I've had some lovely skids 👌🏻 Please let me know buddy if you do ever rent out or find a nice open bit of tarmac to practice drifting; I feel I'm in the same boat as you... I don't quite trust the randomness of the open diff to drive confidently with the systems fully off 😬
mole51 Will keep you posted buddy for sure 👊
Excellent video. I have been a little concerned about this as I'm currently looking for an F20 M135i. I haven't had a RWD since the late 90's Japanese era which had no electronic safety technology. Glad to hear that these modern cars can still be safe if all the electronics are left on for daily driving, then turned off if desired for bit of fun. Cheers Joe.
Great stuff Joe! I remember mid 90's E36 328i, saloon & estate, had to keep the power gently increasing through fast bends to keep it in check, maybe slight correction at times! Limit Point Analysis! RWD, always for me a real drivers car, although I'm (don't hate me!) not a real BMW fan! Brought back some driving memories, tend to forget what you had to do 'in the good ol' days'!!
Haha yeah you had to respect all E36's or they would bite! I totally get people not being BMW fans, but respecting them all the same. Cheers man
I have always been told you can't drive a BMW in cold weather thus being snow etc. I'm pleased to say this proves BMW can handle any weather conditions as the car will not let you do silly things. I have just changed my opinion of BMW I have always loved the 550i and the 740Li just great cars the question being after this would I have Xdrive to be honest I'm not sure. ??
My e46 330d touring does loose traction even on dry surfaces during summer... but never so that it can't be corrected... And in winter conditions (ofc with winter tires in germany) it is a car you need to be cautious about how you use the throttle... No issues if you know what you do and from time to time countersteer a little bit... but it is not foolproof in any means to be honest!
Very good video, the back end of my M2 pushes out from time to time on the sport setting and it's great fun and then the safety aids kick in at just the right moment to bring the car back in to line. I dare not use the sport+ setting!
Of course, If it doesn't snow, you'll be just fine.
Top video! I want an M-lite car asap !
can't get enough of the m135 and the new vlogs! keep it up
Loving the Vlogs, Joe. Great fillers between your other videos. Also great to see the M135i again...absolutely love that car!
Cheers buddy, yeah I'm loving having the time to shoot them, I cant believe I was filming this a few hours ago!
Joe, I agree with most of what you talking about, but where is the winter you are talking about eh? Note: in what us Canadian's call winter meaning snow and ice, a lot of these so called safety controls fail because of the ice that gets in them. We find the biggest problem with RWD cars in the winter is starting off from a stop is a slight problem too. Also note, if it is freezing rain, and these safety systems are working you don't really move very fast or at all, thus the need to bypass them and embrace the drift life.
I hope you find some real snow Joe, and get to experience some of this fun. ;)
My BMW's have always been fine in the conditions in this vid (current F36 430d), the big issue is with standing water on the motorway (when its more of a puddle across the lane and too much for the tyres to handle). This sort of aqua planning is the killer with RWD in my experience. Slowing down seems the obvious answer but you don't know the standing water is there and until that point there hasn't been anything to be concerned about. I have seen a few people spin off or having a big moment in this scenario, FWD isn't as badly affected unless the driver has turned the wheel during the aqua planning.
I'm glad I found your channel as I am very interested in the M135i coupe.as a used car. Thanks for your inputs about the marque.
Great video Joe! I must say this has been a concern of mine with my m140i coming in march, I was afraid it was going to bite my hand off! Keep the great content coming!
Cheers Jack, yeah it wont bite unless you press the bite me buttons haha
Nice one Joe. Another Bobby dazzler. Keep them coming.
Nice video, but the road conditions looked perfect. Pls. make a video like this in wet ore snow conditions.
240 with an auto box is a bitch in sport mode in the cold, constantly trying to throw the back. Actually seems safer in sport+
James Portman That's odd, not in the few I've driven... Sport + should give you less traction aids
Seems like in sport mode the TC is over-reacting quite often, tending to pull the car one way or another. In sport+ it will slip the tyres a tiny bit but the car pulls straight at least
Hi Joe had the back end out off a roundabout near lakeside after only 300 miles, LOL !plenty of throttle but the road was icy! The Mrs wasn't impressed to say the least.Sorry I was the guy who bought the M240i for Arden BMW
Haha my ex HATED me getting the tail out too... Hope you like the (sideways) M240 buddy :-)
Love it ! a lot easier to control than a Elise/ Exige :-)
great demonstration. i thought DSC and Traction control are the same thing
Great video, Joe. I'm just about to pick up my first ever BMW (M2), which I'm excited about, but also a little anxious due to rear wheel aspect. Never driven one before, so looking forward to seeing what the car has to offer! Cheers mate.
Bit more snappy than these 😂
Nice one Joe. Reassuring to see the car at work in the cold . Was slightly concerned the mpss at that temp wouldn't cope with the power.
ImBarryScottCSS the pilot super sports are surprisingly not bad at cold temps, cold temps w wet, and even snow flurries tho I wouldn't reccomend if you can avoid. I've experienced all of these in my 2016 GTI PP w/ Lsd while waiting for my snow tires to be delivered here in Michigan, USA . I was shocked at how grippy they remained but I would imagine any acumulation of snow and they would be God awful!!
Thanks, almost bought S3.
Hello, thank you for this video. First, I live in the US, specifically Buffalo NY. I have really enjoyed your videos on the M240i and the M2. I really like the exterior and interior look of the 2023 BMW M2. My BMW are daily drivers. With the traction at 10, would the M2 handle well enough in the snow. I have owned the 325 xDrive, 335 xDrive and the X3M40i. Would I be better suited "stepping down to the M240i given your experiences with M
Looking forward to driving my newly bought M135i in the winter.
All good info Joe. Was thinking of the LSD but after seeing your clip I'm now thinking of spending the extra cash on other bits. Very useful 👍
Thanks for the video. That's really helped in making up my mind.
Very good review Joe, sport + is about as brave as I get in the public road too, just not worth the damage to the car or even worse hitting someone
7:57 Where did that van disappear to?
*X Files theme*
Que the music
PS if you're ever up near Liverpool & the North West, I've finally taken delivery of the M2.... find some roads and take them for a drive :D
Great video Joe. Informative as ever. You have a very easy to watch and honest reviewing style! Keep the videos coming!
Joe, great vid. Allayed a fear of mine. A tiny bit more to 'tame' - but with it fun to be had!
Cheers Tim, yeah they can be playful, but only when you press the right buttons!
totally agree , my 4 series rwd feels safer in the wet than most fwd cars ive deiven in the wet.
Really enjoying the regular content Joe!
Thanks buddy, unfortunately I keep it going like this forever, but I will make more regular stuff :-)
To be honest, I think it would loose its momentum after a bit if content was just overflowing and sometimes pointless. Its nice I guess to get a bit extra :)
I own an m140i and I am impressed that even with idiotic input from the driver the system keeps you safe. I wouldnt be attempting any of these moves!
Good to hear, the M140's extra torque makes it very tail happy with everything off, but the systems keep her in check otherwise as you say. Cheers
love the vlogs Joe, only catching up now. Hopefully you keep it up, i really enjoy your ramblings! Proper car chat, not just pumping out content for no reason.
I just bought a Cadillac CTS performance with rwd. Bought it as a daily driver . I’ve never driven rwd before and I live in a very wet climate lol pray for me hahaha
Great video as always joe!! Keep it up 👌
I'd agree with you in the cold and in the rain about it being completely safe but the snow is a completely different ball game. I crashed my 125d two weeks ago on the dual carriageway after just a few cm of snow, I was way below the speed limit and the car just started to slide when going round a gradual corner on the road. The driver aids will help you up until the limit but after that, they are a hinderance (ABS becomes your worst enemy). My advice to anyone with a BMW driving in the snow is to drive 10 mph slower than you would in a fwd in the snow (or just leave it at home). I'm not saying that RWD isn't safe in the snow but, comparing it to FWD, you have to take a lot more care
Proper tires and not using your brakes overzealously (saying ABS hurts you hints that you were driving poorly, using a brake in snow is usually what initiates or exacerbates a slide, and if you’re using it enough to cause ABS to kick you screwed up) are two huge pieces of the puzzle. Let off everything and steer the car. Foot off throttle and coast down to a good speed prior to the turn.
Cheers Joe, keep the M135i videos coming! 👍
Haha return of the M135i videos :-)
Milton Keynes was this video made well done . Keep up
keep the vlogs coming joe great to watch.
BMW have excellent stability control. From country where snow is usual.
After watching this, I tried in my E46 M3 and surprisingly the back end came out quite a bit :O
Top video as always Joe. Very informative mate, put my mind at ease abit that I wont come a cropper if I take the plunge and go for the 235i.
Cheers buddy! ..... Just do it haha
JOE!!!! Keep up the good work!
Joe, my M4 stepped out with all the systems on at a roundabout, luckily the chassis was very predictable and I got it back.
I spun my M135i on a roundabout. Havent turned traction control off since.
Tyres make a massive difference on any vehicle. If the pressures are wrong, different tyre makes on different axles/wheels or they're just cheap rubbish tyres then all of those factors can lead to a loss of grip/control.
my problem would be getting stuck really sucks living where theres snow 8+ months of the year and anywhere from a few inchs to feet on the road at any time for those months
I keep coming back to this video because in comfort with everything on, I can get my 120d sideways quite easily in for instance a roundabout.. A proper oversteer slide which my instincts correct (systems would sort it getting messy though). All I have to do is load the outer tyres up when it's cold and wet going round a roundabout so they're on the limit then boot it. The traction doesn't have time to intervene and off it goes. It's almost like the traction and stability control doesn't react fast enough. The car came with non matching tyres and I have a high performance summer tyre on the rear, could be something to do with it since I think the fronts are better in the winter. The rear traction loss is very immediate and sudden, I think the pilot super sport must have such supreme grip to mine and hence more progressive, allowing time for the traction control to realise what's going on. Anyone else had this?
+Jamie Nicholson that's odd, what year is the car, 1st gen 1 series used a very basic TC and ESC system.
Joe Achilles yeah very odd indeed, it's a 63 f20. I had an f80 320 and it wouldn't do this. I think it's the rear tyres, they're Bridgestone potenza s001's and dreadful in the cold! Bare in mind it won't do this at any real speed, I'm talking 20/30mph roundabouts ha
you're best v bloggers
out there after Chris harris 😀very nicely done. very James may like in a good way.
We truly worry about is the rwd on snow man
👍 great video instilling confidence in my beast 🚗😜 cheers joe
Great video Joe, looks like I'll try to get the arse out of my M135i tomorrow morning ! 😎
Haha Good man!
Nice informative video Joe, I just love this kind of things!
Test drove a BMW 120d a couple of months ago. And since that drive, I absolutely loved it!! When it's time for me to look for a new company car I will consider it. the 135i is more fun. But I need to drive a Diesel from the boss haha.
The 120D might be diesel, but its still a brilliant little car :-)
God I love the M135i 😍 great video!
Loved this video! Amazing to see how astonishingly good your videos are now, I was here from the very start! A Chris Harris in the works ;)
Man I cant stop smiling when someone mentions CH :-) Cheers for your long term support!
Another great video joe, very informative and to the point!
Cheers man!
Haha, nice vid but... Heh 1C clear dry conditions... Come to Canada for real winter, here in Calgary at times we rival north pole for cold, loads of snow, ice and gravel all make for some fun driving. Ive driven rwd cars for 14 winters now tho both with an without driver aids and it is doable even in a blizzard lol
With real winter tires tho not those super sports u have on =P
Cheers vlogs r fun
Do one when it’s actually wet and not just cold with a bone dry surface please.
another great video, competent content, look forward to more.
really loving the vlogs Joe! keep them coming 👍 Ryan.