Hey there Dr. Decks. I am a Deck builder in Ct. since 2009 and a long time subscriber. I think you are one of the best content providers about decks and do quality work. Now having attempted to buttering you up, I have a few questions regarding your first few experiences with Outdure. 1. Did/does Outdure provide any training? 2. Did your customers request this product or did you introduce them to this idea? 4. Was it a difficult up-sale? 5. Are you making the same or better margin? 6. Did/does Outdure have any lead referral program? 7. Was the experience beneficial? 8. What % of your future decks do you reasonably expect to be using this product. Thanks in advance Fran
Hey Fran, to answer some of your questions 1. Yes we do, We have technical team that can assist with any questions or advice. We also will be launching an on demand training program very shortly. 6. Launching our partner program soon stay stunned. Outdure
I played a currency arbitrage game by buying Fortress from Canada and shipping it back in to US and paying tarrifs and taxes. All told, I saved 35% on what a US online retailer wanted for the materials.
I'm in my second summer with a steel deck. We went with steel mainly for the low maintenance and so that we could span longer distance without posts interfering with traffic and views. We love it except that it is very noisy which we didn't expect. We have azek on steel and during the heat of the day it bangs and pops and then after the sun goes down it starts banging and popping all over again. Other than that we are very satisfied with it.
The banging and popping sounds that you hear are because of the difference in amount of thermal expansion of PVC (polyvinyl chloride) (from which the AZEK product is made) and the thermal expansion of the steel. Here are a few numbers: Coefficient of linear thermal expansion for materials: PVC = .000028 inches/(inch x degrees F) Steel = .0000073 inches/(inch x degrees F) Aluminum = .0000131 inches/(inch x degrees F) Wood = roughly .000003 to .000005 inches/(inch x degrees F) I will use .000004. - Assume you have a 15 foot long piece of material (or 180 inches) - Assume you have a 40 degree F temperature change from day to night (from 85 degrees to 45 degrees) Now calculate the change in length of each of the materials between day and night: PVC length change = .000028 inches/(inch x degrees F) x 180 inches x 40 degrees F = .202 inches Steel length change = .0000073 inches/(inch x degrees F) x 180 inches x 40 degrees F = .053 inches Aluminum length change = .0000131 inches/(inch x degrees F) x 180 inches x 40 degrees F = .094 inches Wood length change = .000004 inches/(inch x degrees F) x 180 inches x 40 degrees F = .029 inches Ideally, the coefficients of the different materials on your deck would match perfectly. Then you would hear no popping or banging. But we can also see that the difference between steel and wood is quite small. So if you put wood over steel, there would be minimal if any popping. However, the difference between PVC (AZEK) and steel is significant. That is why you hear the popping. A solution would be to use some sort of fastening technique (between the PVC and the steel) that would allow the PVC to float very slightly with respect to the steel. Then the popping would be mitigated. Ed Schultheis Mechanical design engineer and manufacturing consultant for 35 years
@@edschultheis9537 Hi, aerospace design engineer for 42 years. My bet is it really is just the large amount of thermal expansion of the PVC by itself that is causing the problem. The PVC based deck boards and the steel joists run at 90 degrees to each other. Expansion and contraction of the steel would simply open and close the gap between the PVC deck boards by 1 or 2 thousandth of an inch each. But if the deck boards are screwed down tight to the steel joists, their large amount of expansion would cause the deck boards to "oilcan" (bow up or down between the joist) so that the slight curve provides the additional length to accommodate the thermal expansion. This curving of the deck boards turns the stress from horizontal along the length of the deck boards to vertical at each screw holding the deck boards to the joists. These PVC deck boards just aren't very strong and so there will some some give in the material around the threads of the screws. This is likely where the popping sound both during expansion as the day heats up and at night as it cools down and the boards contract. If this is indeed the process going on here, my guess is that the pops are fewer but louder as the deck expands under the heat and those at night are more frequent but quieter. And while the steel is much stronger the horizontal forces perpendicular to the steel joists is the sum of the forces of all of the deck boards and increases from zero at the center of the deck boards to a maximum along the edges. So my guess is that any loud bang is coming from some amount of twisting or racking of the steel joist along their length. This could have been avoided if some amount of compliance could have been built into the deck so that the deck boards can slide a little sideways around the screws to allow horizontal growth of the deck boards without any build up of stress. If the coefficient of thermal expansion of these wood/PVC composite deck boards is the same as for pure PVC, there would only need to be about 1/5th of an inch of movement allowance at the ends of 15 ft deck boards to eliminate any build-up of stress. This could be done on an existing deck by making slots in the boards towards the ends that are about a 1/4" longer than the threads of the screw are wide. The slot would be the width of the screw at the bottom and wider at the top to allow the head of a panhead screw to be recessed below the surface of the board. Then as the deck board expands and contracts it could slide a tiny bit sideways to keep stress from building up. Better would be to design this type of horizontal compliance into the design from the beginning. A quick check of the TimberTech website shows that they have AZEK deck boards with a grove in the side and saddle shaped fasteners they call FUSIONLoc that has a tab on both sides that go into this slot on the boards. A screw goes through the middle of the fastener and into the joist. The tabs on the fastener provide the vertical force to hold the board tightly against the joist, but the deck board can slide sideways under the tab to provide for thermal growth.
@@papparocket I agree. That is mostly what I said or implied in my prior post. If PVC is going to be attached directly to steel in a location with large temperature variations, then a slightly compliant connection method is necessary so the differently-expanding and contracting parts will not stick and then suddenly slip against each other. There are several ways in which this could be accomplished.
Something about being able to walk barefoot on my wooden deck In the middle of summer I enjoy. Next thing you know someone will create a system where coolant is pumped through the metal decking to keep it comfortable to walk on barefoot year round. 😊
With all due respect, not including cost makes me super wary of this product. There are *lots* of amazing products out there but in order to be useful for the majority of people they have to be cost competitive. I can put a copper metal roof on every house, or a quarter sawn domestic hardwood floor in every home, but it doesn’t happen because they cost too much, so we have shingles and vinyl. I suspect metal deck framing, which has benefits for *builders* and longevity as its core selling points, is going to have a hard time competing on price. It’s a great product, but I’ve seen metal building systems for decks come and go for 30 years because none of them can get their costs down low enough to compete. You really need to include that discussion in your videos for credibility’s sake, though I appreciate you bringing new products to our attention immensely.
It’s funny how many carpenters are afraid of metal. Iv done a lot of residential and commercial so I have experience in both. I love metal. Especially framing basements .
I am wondering if structural engineers will add this as alternative to saw lumber or I-Joist for building houses or appointments? I live in BC wood isn’t an issue but saw mills are having hard time getting the wood they need because of some laws making harder and harder harvesting wood.
This is pretty good, I've seen the metal framing but this aluminium with the extrusions makes it easier for install, what about cutting it and what length does it come standard? or if you have the exact measures they'll have the exact length? thanks for the video.
I don’t build decks, so what I say here is maybe not worth much. At seven inches high, that is a typical amount of rise for a step. With the clip from this video that allows two planks to be stacked, you could stack these and cut out each successively higher plank by an amount equal to the tread depth. Not exactly a stringer, but it could give a profile that could be used for stairs.
Which brand of aluminum framing are you using? I have priced out this product and found it to be way more expensive than PT. How does the price of this product compare to OC composite framing in your market?
Former Landscape Architect.... times savings at 3 - 5 times the cost... yup... those structural members and connection parts are very expensive... and they are not approved for use in all cities...
curious to see how it holds up long term. Specifically the paint and corrosion. Like in the salt-belt when people walk on it with salty snow on their shoes or even salt the deck intentionally. I'd guess it holds up pretty dang well though. I'd love to not have to constantly be thinking of water management on the PT. No more taping of joists either.
Aluminum is more than frequently used on boats in the ocean. Aluminum hull boats are one of the most popular out there. However, they have to be protected against corrosion and electrolysis with sacrificial zinc anodes, otherwise it will be the aluminum that gets eaten away. So with the combination of water, salt and any connection to dissimilar metals, it would be good to be at least be aware of that potential with these.
You keep saying this product what’s the name of the product? Where is it available? Is it available thru you only? I just think you need to hire real sales people to help you with your videos there is a consistent lack of usable info.
It costs you hours on each job to eye for the crown? There are about 20-25 joists and it takes you hours, huh? So at a minimum that's 3 hours with a count of 20 joists, so you are spending 9 minutes per joist figuring out the crown! I think you might need a new crew or even a new career. It has never taken me longer than 10 seconds to crown a board. Your reasoning is unreasonable.
Not just crown, he means everything I think. For 2x10s let’s say, some are split, some are bowed, some are 9” tall some are 9 1/8” etc There is some time savings when you know the product your getting is more consistent.
exactly! I tore down my 110 Year Old rotted balcony three years ago finally getting around to rebuilding it using 6 x 6 x 10ft posts, 2x8x12Ft ledger board! and 2x8x12Ft as beams nailed together with of course, galvanized Ring Shank nails! They all started cupping and twisting! several weeks after I stored them in my house’ when I finally installed it, the cupping prevents the joist hangers from sitting flush. The whole process is a giant nightmare building it out of aluminum would prevent any of these issues ever! What the guy saying is absolutely 100% correct! How about the 6 x 6 post that I bought they all have issues they have dents, 1/8” - 3/8” cracks in them! they have dings they have pieces that are missing on the edges! tI spent over 16 hours of my time using Bondo sanding the Bondo and then priming it to fix all of these imperfections! if I had a aluminum posts, ledger board and Joists! I would have none of these issues! I would’ve already had it built, steel or metal or aluminum I don’t give a rats patootie when anybody says it’s a fact! All wood, eventually cracks expands, and contracts up to a quarter of an inch. It’s a fact it’s a product that’s already started failing from the day you buy it from the lumberyard.
What a weird world we live in where people actively hate craftmenship and pride all while flaunting their temu skills as higher standards. Flexing you take ten seconds instead of 9 minutes is probably why the construction industry gets bad rep in the US as it's filled unqualified labor who spend more time and effort trying to tell clients to curve their expectations instead of learning the actual skills needed to achieve quality work. I'm sure your marketing to convince people that less is better is going great with clients. "We take less time and pride per project versus the other guys 😉" - Quality Temu Deckers
If you graded wood joists the way we do, all collectively vs. one at a time, yes it usually takes hours as more than one. Time well spent in my opinion but everybody has one obviously
It is a cost ineffective material to manufacture, sapping a humongous amount of electrical energy. Not an eco friendly product. Timber is a far more eco friendly product. Stick with timber.
Hey there Dr. Decks. I am a Deck builder in Ct. since 2009 and a long time subscriber. I think you are one of the best content providers about decks and do quality work. Now having attempted to buttering you up, I have a few questions regarding your first few experiences with Outdure.
1. Did/does Outdure provide any training?
2. Did your customers request this product or did you introduce them to this idea?
4. Was it a difficult up-sale?
5. Are you making the same or better margin?
6. Did/does Outdure have any lead referral program?
7. Was the experience beneficial?
8. What % of your future decks do you reasonably expect to be using this product.
Thanks in advance
Fran
Liking to see reply, good questions. Been building decks in PA for over a decade.
Hey Fran, to answer some of your questions
1. Yes we do, We have technical team that can assist with any questions or advice. We also will be launching an on demand training program very shortly.
6. Launching our partner program soon stay stunned.
Outdure
@@BvictoryforChristme too
I’m sure it lasts a long time but the quote I received from a fortress aluminum decking vendor was $140 per 12’ joist 😮.
Isn’t Fortress steel?
Fortress is a bit expensive. I got a quote but can’t remember price per sq/ft.
The time at $100+ hr install probably makes it a wash. Remember no tape install no jointer/ planing needed . A DIY install it’s not a saving.
You can go to Outdure’s web page and get pricing right off the web site. If you don’t need massive spans, you can decrease the joist size and save $$
I played a currency arbitrage game by buying Fortress from Canada and shipping it back in to US and paying tarrifs and taxes. All told, I saved 35% on what a US online retailer wanted for the materials.
I'm in my second summer with a steel deck. We went with steel mainly for the low maintenance and so that we could span longer distance without posts interfering with traffic and views. We love it except that it is very noisy which we didn't expect. We have azek on steel and during the heat of the day it bangs and pops and then after the sun goes down it starts banging and popping all over again. Other than that we are very satisfied with it.
The banging and popping sounds that you hear are because of the difference in amount of thermal expansion of PVC (polyvinyl chloride) (from which the AZEK product is made) and the thermal expansion of the steel. Here are a few numbers:
Coefficient of linear thermal expansion for materials:
PVC = .000028 inches/(inch x degrees F)
Steel = .0000073 inches/(inch x degrees F)
Aluminum = .0000131 inches/(inch x degrees F)
Wood = roughly .000003 to .000005 inches/(inch x degrees F) I will use .000004.
- Assume you have a 15 foot long piece of material (or 180 inches)
- Assume you have a 40 degree F temperature change from day to night (from 85 degrees to 45 degrees)
Now calculate the change in length of each of the materials between day and night:
PVC length change = .000028 inches/(inch x degrees F) x 180 inches x 40 degrees F = .202 inches
Steel length change = .0000073 inches/(inch x degrees F) x 180 inches x 40 degrees F = .053 inches
Aluminum length change = .0000131 inches/(inch x degrees F) x 180 inches x 40 degrees F = .094 inches
Wood length change = .000004 inches/(inch x degrees F) x 180 inches x 40 degrees F = .029 inches
Ideally, the coefficients of the different materials on your deck would match perfectly. Then you would hear no popping or banging. But we can also see that the difference between steel and wood is quite small. So if you put wood over steel, there would be minimal if any popping. However, the difference between PVC (AZEK) and steel is significant. That is why you hear the popping.
A solution would be to use some sort of fastening technique (between the PVC and the steel) that would allow the PVC to float very slightly with respect to the steel. Then the popping would be mitigated.
Ed Schultheis
Mechanical design engineer and manufacturing consultant for 35 years
@@edschultheis9537 Hi, aerospace design engineer for 42 years. My bet is it really is just the large amount of thermal expansion of the PVC by itself that is causing the problem. The PVC based deck boards and the steel joists run at 90 degrees to each other. Expansion and contraction of the steel would simply open and close the gap between the PVC deck boards by 1 or 2 thousandth of an inch each.
But if the deck boards are screwed down tight to the steel joists, their large amount of expansion would cause the deck boards to "oilcan" (bow up or down between the joist) so that the slight curve provides the additional length to accommodate the thermal expansion. This curving of the deck boards turns the stress from horizontal along the length of the deck boards to vertical at each screw holding the deck boards to the joists. These PVC deck boards just aren't very strong and so there will some some give in the material around the threads of the screws. This is likely where the popping sound both during expansion as the day heats up and at night as it cools down and the boards contract. If this is indeed the process going on here, my guess is that the pops are fewer but louder as the deck expands under the heat and those at night are more frequent but quieter.
And while the steel is much stronger the horizontal forces perpendicular to the steel joists is the sum of the forces of all of the deck boards and increases from zero at the center of the deck boards to a maximum along the edges. So my guess is that any loud bang is coming from some amount of twisting or racking of the steel joist along their length.
This could have been avoided if some amount of compliance could have been built into the deck so that the deck boards can slide a little sideways around the screws to allow horizontal growth of the deck boards without any build up of stress. If the coefficient of thermal expansion of these wood/PVC composite deck boards is the same as for pure PVC, there would only need to be about 1/5th of an inch of movement allowance at the ends of 15 ft deck boards to eliminate any build-up of stress. This could be done on an existing deck by making slots in the boards towards the ends that are about a 1/4" longer than the threads of the screw are wide. The slot would be the width of the screw at the bottom and wider at the top to allow the head of a panhead screw to be recessed below the surface of the board. Then as the deck board expands and contracts it could slide a tiny bit sideways to keep stress from building up.
Better would be to design this type of horizontal compliance into the design from the beginning. A quick check of the TimberTech website shows that they have AZEK deck boards with a grove in the side and saddle shaped fasteners they call FUSIONLoc that has a tab on both sides that go into this slot on the boards. A screw goes through the middle of the fastener and into the joist. The tabs on the fastener provide the vertical force to hold the board tightly against the joist, but the deck board can slide sideways under the tab to provide for thermal growth.
@@papparocket I agree. That is mostly what I said or implied in my prior post. If PVC is going to be attached directly to steel in a location with large temperature variations, then a slightly compliant connection method is necessary so the differently-expanding and contracting parts will not stick and then suddenly slip against each other. There are several ways in which this could be accomplished.
Something about being able to walk barefoot on my wooden deck In the middle of summer I enjoy. Next thing you know someone will create a system where coolant is pumped through the metal decking to keep it comfortable to walk on barefoot year round. 😊
Cost comparison?
Great! How much does it cost?
With all due respect, not including cost makes me super wary of this product.
There are *lots* of amazing products out there but in order to be useful for the majority of people they have to be cost competitive.
I can put a copper metal roof on every house, or a quarter sawn domestic hardwood floor in every home, but it doesn’t happen because they cost too much, so we have shingles and vinyl.
I suspect metal deck framing, which has benefits for *builders* and longevity as its core selling points, is going to have a hard time competing on price.
It’s a great product, but I’ve seen metal building systems for decks come and go for 30 years because none of them can get their costs down low enough to compete. You really need to include that discussion in your videos for credibility’s sake, though I appreciate you bringing new products to our attention immensely.
You’re wearing a Blaklader hat……So……. I’m sold!
Where do we get this and how much is it?
It’s funny how many carpenters are afraid of metal. Iv done a lot of residential and commercial so I have experience in both. I love metal. Especially framing basements .
Great concept but only the rich can afford it give us the total price of the deck in the video
Comment.....Just don't let the CanMan know you have this under your deck boards....LOL! Looks good!~
What’s the load bearing capacity of these? Can they support a hot tub?
where can one buy it?
Why would you avoid COST??? 😢😢😢😢😢
That’s worth a sub for sure
Still see a wood beam, do they have an aluminum box beam ???
I am wondering if structural engineers will add this as alternative to saw lumber or I-Joist for building houses or appointments? I live in BC wood isn’t an issue but saw mills are having hard time getting the wood they need because of some laws making harder and harder harvesting wood.
Can it do a waterproof deck for a deck/roof structure?
This is pretty good, I've seen the metal framing but this aluminium with the extrusions makes it easier for install, what about cutting it and what length does it come standard? or if you have the exact measures they'll have the exact length? thanks for the video.
Just what I've always wanted a 40K deck
Doesn't look like this stuff is available in the US yet, so I'm curious as to how you plan to switch to it...
Have you come up with a water drainage system for this system. Also do you have a stair solution? Thank you!
The company has a drainage solution but haven’t see stairs yet
I don’t build decks, so what I say here is maybe not worth much.
At seven inches high, that is a typical amount of rise for a step. With the clip from this video that allows two planks to be stacked, you could stack these and cut out each successively higher plank by an amount equal to the tread depth. Not exactly a stringer, but it could give a profile that could be used for stairs.
Which brand of aluminum framing are you using? I have priced out this product and found it to be way more expensive than PT. How does the price of this product compare to OC composite framing in your market?
What if you factor in the labor cost? How much labor is actually saved?
The pricing is 10x PT. That's a lot of labor
@@bryanbahre-sv1pp Labor is really expensive though. So I would like to see the math. Maybe straight from Dr Decks.
That's pretty awesome. If you do high end work, you can use high end materials. Think bigger picture, people. Cheers
Outdure won’t send samples to canada so unfortunately I won’t be getting it.
Where can we buy the decking
How far apart are those joists spaced? It looks closer than 16 on center, but it's kind of hard to tell from the video.
He did say in the video, they are spaced at 12 inch centers
We do need to know the cost.....give it up!
This system would only be applicable to engineered designs under IRC 301.1.3. This rules out most decks built (including DIY) in my area.
Former Landscape Architect.... times savings at 3 - 5 times the cost... yup... those structural members and connection parts are very expensive... and they are not approved for use in all cities...
Hey there, we are in fact approved for all states and can work to all types of engineering parameters. Get in touch to find out more 👍🏽
@@outdure Thanks for the comment and tip... decks have changed a lot since I designed them
how do you make a stairway with this?
curious to see how it holds up long term. Specifically the paint and corrosion. Like in the salt-belt when people walk on it with salty snow on their shoes or even salt the deck intentionally. I'd guess it holds up pretty dang well though. I'd love to not have to constantly be thinking of water management on the PT. No more taping of joists either.
Aluminum is frequently used in sailboats on the ocean, so I imagine it would do just fine.
Aluminum doesn’t rust.
Aluminum is more than frequently used on boats in the ocean. Aluminum hull boats are one of the most popular out there. However, they have to be protected against corrosion and electrolysis with sacrificial zinc anodes, otherwise it will be the aluminum that gets eaten away.
So with the combination of water, salt and any connection to dissimilar metals, it would be good to be at least be aware of that potential with these.
@@juzoli yest but it does corrode
@@Galgamoth That’s the same thing, and it doesn’t.
Who’s the manufacturer of this product?
Anyone catch the name of the manufacturer?
Costs, any small project becomes $$$$ while with lumber it can be $100 or free if you have laying around.
Are you getting paid for the materials you’re using?
It'll be as loud as a wheel chair ramp.
Interesting
Price aside. This looks so much better than timber
So much negativity! Guys, he educating his audience.
Who makes this and who distributes this in the PNW? Thanks!
Try talking the customer into paying 3 times as much
@@mikew7561Especially considering how high his quotes are already.
Outdure makes it but they do not sell it in the US.
@@outdure I inquired about pricing several months ago. Does that mean I will have to ask again? Why not just publish your prices?
Timbertech makes it and you can buy from your local lumber yard. Parr lumber in Oregon and WA and BFS in other areas
You keep saying this product what’s the name of the product? Where is it available? Is it available thru you only? I just think you need to hire real sales people to help you with your videos there is a consistent lack of usable info.
Let's talk about the name of the product?
Technically speaking, is this carpentry, and does it merit the compensation of wood carpentry?
The vibrations in metal-supported structures are unlivable for sensitive people.
Hey there, definitely no vibrations with our product. We can design to lots of different engineering loadings. Jump on our website to see more 👍🏽
It costs you hours on each job to eye for the crown? There are about 20-25 joists and it takes you hours, huh? So at a minimum that's 3 hours with a count of 20 joists, so you are spending 9 minutes per joist figuring out the crown! I think you might need a new crew or even a new career. It has never taken me longer than 10 seconds to crown a board. Your reasoning is unreasonable.
Not just crown, he means everything I think. For 2x10s let’s say, some are split, some are bowed, some are 9” tall some are 9 1/8” etc
There is some time savings when you know the product your getting is more consistent.
exactly! I tore down my 110 Year Old rotted balcony three years ago finally getting around to rebuilding it using 6 x 6 x 10ft posts, 2x8x12Ft ledger board! and 2x8x12Ft as beams nailed together with of course, galvanized Ring Shank nails! They all started cupping and twisting! several weeks after I stored them in my house’ when I finally installed it, the cupping prevents the joist hangers from sitting flush. The whole process is a giant nightmare building it out of aluminum would prevent any of these issues ever! What the guy saying is absolutely 100% correct! How about the 6 x 6 post that I bought they all have issues they have dents, 1/8” - 3/8” cracks in them! they have dings they have pieces that are missing on the edges! tI spent over 16 hours of my time using Bondo sanding the Bondo and then priming it to fix all of these imperfections! if I had a aluminum posts, ledger board and Joists! I would have none of these issues! I would’ve already had it built, steel or metal or aluminum I don’t give a rats patootie when anybody says it’s a fact! All wood, eventually cracks expands, and contracts up to a quarter of an inch. It’s a fact it’s a product that’s already started failing from the day you buy it from the lumberyard.
What a weird world we live in where people actively hate craftmenship and pride all while flaunting their temu skills as higher standards. Flexing you take ten seconds instead of 9 minutes is probably why the construction industry gets bad rep in the US as it's filled unqualified labor who spend more time and effort trying to tell clients to curve their expectations instead of learning the actual skills needed to achieve quality work.
I'm sure your marketing to convince people that less is better is going great with clients.
"We take less time and pride per project versus the other guys 😉"
- Quality Temu Deckers
@@hugorodriguez5521I like you. lol. Eloquently stated!
If you graded wood joists the way we do, all collectively vs. one at a time, yes it usually takes hours as more than one. Time well spent in my opinion but everybody has one obviously
It is a cost ineffective material to manufacture, sapping a humongous amount of electrical energy. Not an eco friendly product. Timber is a far more eco friendly product. Stick with timber.
Aluminum is too soft. It's not going to last.