Colt Model 639: MACVSOG's Vietnam Carbine
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The Colt Model 639 was the export version of the Colt Model 629, which was type classified by the US military as the XM177E2 and issued to MACVSOG special operations units in 1967 and 1968. Improved from the Model 609 carbine, the 629/639 has an 11.5 inch barrel and an interesting small muzzle device (“moderator”) which served to change the signature of its firing to sound much more like an AK type rifle than an M16. The device does that job well - at least until it had been fired extensively, which slowly fills up the (non-disassemblable) unit with carbon and powder residue, substantially reducing its effectiveness. It has a full-fence lower, standard carbine buffer and spring, and a two position aluminum collapsing stock. It is the iconic weapon of US special forces in Vietnam.
Only about 100 of the Model 639 were made in the early 1970s, and many of those were sent back to Colt in 1975 under a recall. At that time, the ATF decided to classify the muzzle device as a silencer, prompting Colt to recall the guns and remove and destroy the devices. Some owners, however, kept their carbines and instead registered the muzzle devices, allowing them legally remain on the guns.
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There’s just something so aesthetically pleasing about Vietnam era M-16 platform rifles. You can physically tell that they’re stuck between two eras
It's an Retro/Modern looking firearm, it's very pleasant. Another example of that is the AK-47 and the G-36
@@christinesulyvahn6043 The 20 round magazines make a big difference in their appearance especially the early M16s.
The hint of futuristic space age is just immaculate. Absolutely beautiful
"MACVSOG is of course the Military Assistance Command Vietnam Studies and Observation Group."
Ah yes of course, of course.
So mouthful
I knew it... ;-)
@NovaXP ... Mac And Cheese Vigilante Society Of Grits.
One interesting fact is the ARVN Special Operation Command counterpart of SOG is “Nha Kỹ Thuật” which literally means “Technical Department”.
@@guts-141 That's why we just used "SOG".
MACVSOG is what happens when spec ops gets free reign of their own acronyms
bless you
SOG was originally Special Operations Group but...that wasn't so secret of a name but someone in their infinite wisdom (sarcasm) changed the name but kept the same acronym...
If it were up to me to have named my own, heh, it'd be something akin to DecidedlyIncredibleConcerningKilling. No one would see us coming ; )
Sampson lll I can hear it now in the foreign languages of our enemies. “Those poor bastards got DICK’d down dirty.”
@@wmb1559 Hahaha! And of course it would stay classified, unlike SOG because who in their right mind would reveal DICKs on the world stage? Or the embarrassment of the Commander In Chief to explain the actions of his DICKs in places they aren't supposed to be.
It makes USSOCOM sound short and concise by comparison
Soldier 1: (Confused) "Who's the officer in charge of the acronyms here?'
Soldier 2: (Stressed) "Ain't You?"
Is that you, or is this me?
Great scene from Apocalypse Now.
Now I have to go watch the whole fuckin movie again man, thanks, hahahaha
Ya think ya bad nibba?
More Vietnam era anything please.
Yes, we need the Stoner 63 eventually.
@@MRYUSOCRZY Theres already a video on a Stoner 63 on this channel.
Needs more 63 video, the different models and accessories, and a T25/T47 video
I see you’re a man of culture as well.
So one of my very close friends had a grandfather who he knew served in vietnam but never ever talked about it. Then after his grandad passed away they were going through his attic and found 2 of these in a wood crate with military markings on it. The guns had no serial numbers. He said they almost missed the crate because it was half buried in fluff insulation.
My friend who shal remain nameless did some research and posted on a few forums about them and i was actually at his house when some government agents of some sort showed up and asked about them. The guns were given their own markings and serial numbers and apparently wrere never supposed to make it back to the states. The current belief is the guns were intenelded to be used in a off-the-books mission of some sort.
“One chance Mason”
“We’ll take it”
“YOU CANT KILL ME!”
Dragovich, Kravchenko, Steiner, all must die
My name is Viktor Reznov and i will have my revenge!
You see that hind? WE’RE GONNA TAKE IT!!
I wasn't gonna die IN A FUCKING SWAMP!
The numbers Mason! WHAT DO THEY MEAN!?
Insane to think this is a Vietnam-era weapon with how good of a condition it is. Looks almost as if it's fresh off Colt's assembly line
Potentially better than a new Colt...
If I had the $50K to buy that thing I would honestly just toss the upper into storage, disassemble the lower down to the fire control group and bare receiver, and mate it to newer parts. It's a cool gun but it's fugly.
Ryan Grobe That comment made my physically angry.
Got to be honest, never been a fan of the old school fore-grip & carry handle sights combo.
Love me some steel & wood, but the classic AR look just does nothing for me.
John ‘Juice’ Shipper I don't like the stock and I hate fixed sights. Ergo keep the upper pristine and just strip the receiver bare and make a full auto M16 A4 clone
My grandfather always bragged about being issued this weapon over the M16. Very cool to see it here
As cool, at least, is if you were early SOG and got one of the handmade knves (Randall ?). By the time I got there in '68 none had ever been turned back in, so they only issued Air Force survival knives. Grrr.
Noice
Definitely more beautiful than the old Mattel-16s haha
@@CandC68 Wow, I'm guessing those knives would be even more rare than these guns
I have a picture of my dad carrying one in ‘68
And gun jesus scoffed at turning water into wine and instead made the ar sound like the ak...and it was good
Amen
Lol
I’m so curious what this thing sounds like though.
R'amen
@@ffarmchicken Yea,but its 1 thing to shoot an AK that SOUNDS like an AK,its another to shoot an M16/M4 that sounds like an AK. Like a Harley that sounds like a rice burner,whoooooole different animal😉
Friendship with Rock Island ended, now Morphy is my best firend
I get this reference. Enjoy the thumbs up.
What’s the reference?
James D Julia sounded way more posh than Morphy's...
knowyourmeme.com/memes/friendship-ended-with-mudasir here you go
I actually knew someone that was from Laos that was picked up by those SOG fellows for his special abilities. I know he liked the 5.56 better then his old AK but I do not know if he had this specific AR. He was a specialist in all things anti-armor. Anti-tank mines, rockets, improvised explosives, ext. He fought in Laos, Cambodia, and Vietnam. After being shot though the leg, recovered, and captured, he was given over to his "handler" and brought back to the US where he eventually gained citizenship. Then he became a master welder and raised chickens. I lost touch with him many years ago. A shame. He was a very experienced man. I could had learned a lot from him if I stayed in touch. In fact I wounder if he is still alive.
John Daugherty My family decent is compromised of former Laotian pathet fighters, basically jacked up on drugs and communistic ideologies, who were forced to fight for the communist party of Laos, during the civil war in the 80s to 90s.
A really dark time for many families, who were still trying to recover from the intensive bombings during the Vietnam war, & the incursion of North Vietnamese troops traveling along the Ho Chi Minh trail.
What was his name?
@@clueless4096 TC. I can not spell his full name. It is VERY long. Laotian names and all that ha.
@@Jesses001 My grandpa is also from laos. I am half laotian. It honors me that you talk highly of us. Not many people talk about us outside of minor involvement in the vietnam war, thank you.
Bro I hope you find that guy again. Times like these their knowledge and life experiences not only great to listen to but invaluable for the future. My dad was an SF NAM Vet. He talks well of the indigenous he trained and fought with. Admirable fighters
The numbers Ian!
Where is the broadcast station?!
Cuba?
@RicedFg2 No Mason, YOU killed Steiner! Reznov didn't do it, JUST YOU!
"The wounds he sustained ensuring our victory should have earned him a hero's welcome to Russia. But stalin had little need for heros"
Bwah hahaha😂
Brave comrades of Vorkuta, the time has come to rise against our oppressors! Today, we show them the hearts of true Russians! We have all given our blood for the Motherland. We have answered her calls without question. We gave our youth, our hearts, our very souls for her protection. As brothers, we fought side by side against the German fascists. We crawled through dirt and blood and sand to achieve our glorious victory... Not for medals, or glory ...But for what was right. We fought for revenge... When Berlin fell, how did our leaders repay us? We returned not to the rapturous welcome...but to suspicion and persecution. In the eyes of our leaders we were already tainted by the capitalist West. Torn from the arms of our loved ones, we found ourselves here... this place... this, this terrible place. Here we have languished, with no hope for release... No hope for justice. We have toiled in Dragovich's mines until the flesh peeled from our bones... We have watched our comrades succumb to sickness and disease... We have been starved. We have been beaten. But we will not be broken! Today, we will send a message to our corrupt and arrogant leaders. Today, my comrades... Vorkuta - BURNS!!!
Running around in Vietnam...and Laos...aaaand Cambodia. :D
Allegedly...
@@alienvalentine ya the cesnas in the AF museum recieved from the airforce only allegedly went to cambodia
I'm aware, it's called a joke.
Oh, sorry man. Didn't get it.
"There are no American ground combat troops in Laos" - Nixon :P
I swear every episode like this where Ian mentions how the NFA and ATF fucked things up raises my blood pressure.
schmeissergod I honestly feel they don’t do a lick of good but of course the ignorant are going to keep them around.
Hang on, the ATF is fucking it all up again......
Fucking tyrants
@kane357lynch in favor of the ATF? i find that hard to believe. Any sources?
*for you Mason*
*not for me*
Reznov!!!!!
Step 8 Reznov freedom!!!
That still brings a tear to my eye thinking about Reznov driving off to never be heard from again except inside Mason’s head
@@larrymcjones with the music playing in the cutscene bro..
It’s not enough that a spec ops agent has to speak an enemy’s language, the gun must too! XD
MACVSOG Operators: We do a little trolling.
During my stint in the Philippine Army in the year 1974, some of us were issued this kind of M16 rifle which we called "baby armalite". However, this kind of rifle mostly issued to special forces and airborne personnel.
Maybe you are referring to the Colt M653 sir or the M16A1 Carbine "Baby Armalite" if you call it.
Better run through the
j u n g l e
It ain't me! It ain' me! I ain't no fortunate son, no boy!
@@aaronorr5586 Who'll stop the rain?
I see, a bad moon a-rising...
I-i wanna kno-w... have you ever seen the rain?
GO HOME GI
Someone was doing an airsoft Vietnam load out, and he had one of these. I thought it was an M4 so I said a joke about him needing a time machine cause it wasn’t issued till ‘93 but then people flamed me and told me about this gun so now I’m researching it 😂
Hahaa good on you for taking it well and learning abt it tho lmao
gEt A tImE mAcHiNe BrO
I guess you're European?
Not like the AR platform has existed since the 60s or anything
That's rough buddy
A muzzle device that makes your gun sound like the enemy's guns... I had no idea those existed.
Not too useful around friendlies... But SOG was mostly in Cambodia and Laos (probably some N. Vietnam as well) - that was all AK country.
Except it doesn't. That's a myth. It absolutely is a sound and flash suppressor, it's described as such in trials and Colt documentation. Its purpose was purely to tame the additional noise and flash of the original 10" barrel and TRY to make it no worse than the 20" rifle, which it didn't quite manage (1 dB higher). The E2 barrel knocked 1.5dB more off.
The ATF would declare pacifiers as suppressors if they could.
Mamiya645 don’t forget potatoes too lol
Choir boy Pot scrubbers and 14 inch long shoestrings make the list.
Let's not forget the completely real no-exaggeration fact that if you own a Sten Gun parts kit you are not allowed to own a piece of metal tube because of "constructive possession". A piece of metal tube! By that notion you shouldn't be able to own a milling machine or a lathe or a drill-press, hell, a bunch of chisels and files and also metal bar stock because you could also make a machine gun from that stuff too! Gun laws are all written by people who seem to come from an alternate reality and have the kind of understanding of guns that primitive tribesmen assigned them upon first meeting them -magic metal wands that spat fire and death. Yet somehow many of those primitives were smarter than our lawmakers because it seems that many of them were able to attain an adequate understanding of the gun after some more exposure to it and perhaps a little instruction, certainly enough to put them to good use themselves, while our lawmakers remain forever in the "magic wand" phase of understanding what a gun is. And we modern men know that most primitives, like most people in general, aren't stupid, they're just ignorant. Ignorance is rectifiable, stupidity, not so much, so, when those whose job it is to make law fail to understand fundamentally the thing they are making law about, when they have without a doubt the resources to understand it fully, then we must conclude that they are either stupid, or, much more frighteningly, malevolent.
Technically a pacifier is a baby suppressor 😂😂
@@jonanles you sir for the win
Huge props to the owner(s) that went through the hassle to keep this gun how it was built, preserving it for the rest of us to see Ian look at!
Wow that is amazing. I didn't know they had collapsible stocks that early as well. That looks so similar to today's carbine, you can really tell it is a great firearm when not much has changed in over 50 years
I worked with an old Macvsog guy who was a manager at a grocery store in Oklahoma. He had no problem telling me stories when I asked him. He told me about these and also said a lot of the times they would carry AK’s or sub machine guns of different varieties. Awesome video
i wanna hear that muzzle device
So do I, but he didn't say anything about firing it =(
There are other videos of the XM177E2 online firing. It does sound different. Stupid that it's considered a suppressor... If NOTHING else, they should have recalled them, had them serialized, then specifically exempted those units from needing NFA registration. But, really, shouldn't even be on the NFA to begin with.
@@rodgersmith1573 yeah the atf is pretty idiotic when it comes to that it isn't a silencer more like a sound changer 😂
@Terry Bruce it's call the moderator
Terry Bruce although it is a flash suppressor, I’ve shot an xm-15 with this device attached to it and the flash is gigantic. It’s a larger flash than I’ve seen on any rifle. It’s a strange piece of machining
Basic training Nov 1964 we had M-14. Special Forces Troops came to show how to use M-16. After the firing display I asked how do you do the Manual of Arms with it The SF MSgt replied " I don't know we don't do that s----t. You should have seen the look on the Company Commanders face.
yank1776
M15 ?
@@g.55centaurosimp18 Full-auto M14 modified to light machinegun, IIRC.
coachmilldawg
Looks like it
Mingwei Zhang
Heard about it, but I thought it was never adopted, and that was in the late 50s.
So, if my understanding is right, it would be strange to see recruits training on it in 64’
At
likely a typo.
So what was the ballpark price? I'm guessing $50k???
Wouldn’t be one bit surprised if it went for five times that honestly
@@eragonunderhill5545 Says it sold for 27k. Look at the auction site.
@@CzedYman no way! I thought it was transferable machine gun, I must have been wrong.
@@ruinedrx8 lol huh?
You really think people are dropping quarter million for a select fire switch?
Why wouldnt someone simply get a class 3 firearms license? The only reason prebans cost alot is so you can get a gun manufactured before the Firearm Owners Protection Act of 1986
If you had the sort of money to spend you're simply an insanely rich collector... guys will drop 7-12k for shitty mac10s and tec9s just to have a pre banned machine gun and avoid all the extra hassle
@@BOB-wx3fq oh darn, my guess was wrong fuck me, class 3s don’t let you personally own a machine gun, just resell them, in fact there’s a charge for using a class 3 to have a personal machine gun
I absolutely love Vietnam era weapons like this!
I actually fired one of these when it was assigned to me in a military shooting competition (note that I'm not US military - I was a conscript in a foreign military). It was configured exactly as shown in the video, although I was using 30-round mags loaded with 25 rounds. Too bad I didn't appreciate the history I was holding in my hands back then!
Ian, you need John Stryker Meyer to talk about his experiences with the car15
I hope he’s read across the fence, if not somebody needs to get him a copy.
Thank you for this feature. Some additional information for you: this carbine was issued to the Philippine Military in the 70s and 80s. It was normally given to Philippine Air Force aircrew and ground security personnel. They had bird cage flash hiders and were known colloquially as 'Baby Armalites'. There are still quite a number of them in civilian hands or in military inventory in the Philippines.
Gilan Bar Ona i believe it was the Colt M653P (Phils) made by Elisco tools in the Phils under license from Colt and not the XM177E2 /m635/639.
I remember reading about these in the book Secret Commandos by John Plaster. One of the best military history books I have ever read.
I remember reading that SOG actually bought a bunch of thirty round mags from Guns and Ammo magazine for use in their CAR-15s.
This is the rifle that got me interested in AR15's . Every time I would watch a Vietnam war movie back in the day like Platoon , Hamburger Hill , Full Metal Jacket and so on , I would watch for this rifle .
I agree, this to me is 1 of the most classically beautiful rifles ever made. Of course there are better looking ones but these are pure classics
I think John Stryker Meyer or Dick Thompson from MACVSOG said they only extended the stock in combat once or twice throughout all of their missions
Back in late '93 or early '94 when I was a slick-sleeve patrolman, I bought a Bushmaster XM-15 for a patrol rifle. It looks almost exactly like this gun (though semi-auto, of course, and the flash suppressor in no way attenuates the quite pronounced muzzle blast). That rifle took me through years of patrol, was my tactical rifle as a detective, got me through SWAT school (the other guys got issued guns but I got the, "Well, you already have your own, so there's no need for us to buy YOU one..."). Later, when I was issued a select-fire M4 (and a select-fire 9mm version the Colt 639) I semi-retired my rifle. After retirement, I agreed to work for a year at a tiny little micro-agency that had a lot of "interesting" things going on in town. I got my rifle back out of mothballs and it rode with me (along with several other guns, depending on what I was doing). in any case, very interesting video on the great-grandfather of my rifle that has served me so well for many years and is still going strong. Thanks!
Do you remember the sticker price from back then? And do I want to know what it was or is it gonna make me mad 😂
@@daddydoc1115 - LOL, I think I paid around $350 for it. Regular price was a bit north of that but this was some special deal or other.
@@CeltKnight aw mannnn 😂 those gotta be around 2k now
@@daddydoc1115 LOL, I dunno what they go for now, but at the height of the Clinton Assault Weapon Ban, mine was worth about $1,200. And the #2 guy at my old dept. informed me the city would NOT replace or repair it were it damaged in use or training.
Oh I hope Gun Jesus blesses us with firing this weapon.
duachim while smeared in camo paint and wearing a boonie hat!
Considering that he mentioned that the flash hider has a limited life time due to clogging and no good way to fix that, I don't think he will.
Would be great though.
Sorry, no shooting footage of this one.
Maybe the new owner will allow Ian to shoot n film it. It would be Awesome to hear a side by side sound comparison between this and another rifle!!!!?????????
@@ForgottenWeapons
Awwe I hope the new owner allows it lol Id love to hear that "suppressor"
Nothing but support from Canada!
As soon as I saw MACVSOG I clicked on it, this rifle is beautiful!
Even after all these decades, still one of the coolest military weapons of all time.
Wow... Pretty soon the ATF is going to want me to register the muffler on my car as a suppressor smh
Interesting fact; the car muffler and firearm silencer were both invented by the same person, Hiram Percy Maxim (son of Hiram Maxim of machine gun fame).
Technically a vehicle is a deadly weapon capable of mass murder and climate change, so who knows. Civilian cars around the PNW area are under attack by stupid 'leaders' already. Cars get banned before mufflers, bet you 5$.
@@TruthSeekerD it's called agenda 2030 mate. Here in Britain no new cars will be built after 2030
Ones that run on fossil fuel that is
In awe of Ians speaking ability. Consistently provides detailed information without the overuse of filler worse or prolonged pauses. Great video as always! I love learning about Vietnam era guns because I dont know a lot about its history in general.
Very cool. I'm building a Vietnam-era inspired AR15 build that uses modern technologies with the older stylings of the original models. I call it the PMCR Project. Postmodern Combat Rifle.
Tell us more!
This is really, really cool. I've seen a bunch of pictures of these things but never actually seen a 'live' example. Thanks for all your work, Ian, your efforts to catalog and teach firearms history is greatly appreciated.
I thought the "moderator" was originally designed to increase the dwell time of the gas pressure in the barrel to make the gun more reliable, never heard it was to make it sound like an AK.
I have heard several different stories about them, and used my own judgement to pick the one that seemed most reliable.
Mongo63a imo the ‘sound like an AK’ seems more likely to me, otherwise, why not just have a 2-3” longer barrel?
Well if they were later able to distribute them without it after the NFA and export decisions, presumably it was not necessary for functionality.
As for barrel length, maneuverability is often desired over ballistics. I have original sales literature for the 639 and Colt never mentions anything about sounding like an AK47 in it as a selling point. It was a known issue though that gas dwell time on the 10 and 11 inch barrels being an issue in that the gas port had to be opened up enough to get the gun to function reliable but at the same time the cyclic rate would increase making it less reliable feeding wise. It was a fine balancing act to get the 10 and 11 inch barrels to run but not run too fast resulting bolt over base malfunctions. From what I have seen over the year, engineering test wise, the moderator gave sufficient gas dwell time to increase reliability, at least until it became heavily carbon fouled.
Mongo63a I understand wanting a short weapon, but my point about barrel length was why use a 3” long moderator to get an 11” barrel to work, and not just use a 14” barrel?
Some years ago I read a book by a LRRP soldier who got his XM177 just before starting a mission. he removed the muzzle device like the one shown here and replaced it with the standard birdcage flash hider and went on the mission. He didn't fire it during the mission and decided to test fire it after returning. It fired once and he realized that he'd gone afield with a single shot. Needless to say he replaced the original muzzle device.
Not sure why the removal of the moderator and the addition of a bird cage would result in a single shot operation.
@@grayantihero6059 Um bgbeck stated clearly that this guy went into the field with a single shot meaning he didnt check his load out to see what was loaded into his magazine. He only had one round so it was operator error not mechanical failure
@@christopherbordelon5960 No, he was saying that removal of the special muzzle device effectively turned the rifle into a single-shot weapon. NO special forces guy would EVER go out on a mission without checking their ammo loadout. Removing a "tuned" muzzle device like this from a short barreled rifle can result in issues with the gas system, which can cause it not to cycle properly. That is why the OP made it very clear that the LRRP soldier re-installed his muzzle device after he fired the gun, because it failed to fire a second shot.
@@crazyfvck I see where I misinterpreted. I thought he was saying he went into the field with a single shot. I took it as meaning he only had one round in the magazine. Instead he had a single shot weapon.
@@grayantihero6059 it provided back-pressure at that time.
Thank you Ian, very cool.
Yeet Winchester lmao that thumbnail
Thumbnail is for a vid
wow ian great moves keep it up proud of you
*BETTER RUN THROUGH THE JUNGLE*
*BETTER RUN THROUGH THE JUNGLE*
*BETTER RUN THROUGH THE JUNGLE..*
*WHOAAAH, DON'T LOOK BACK TO SEE*
Sophia Smirnova gO hOmE Gi
Settle down.
Funny enough that song is an anti gun anthem.
@@CaptainCiph3r it's a reference to RS2Vietnam.
@@BicyclesMayUseFullLane I know, I was playing it last night, I was just saying that song is an anti gun anthem.
This gun was way ahead of its time. 11.5” AR-15 Pistols have only recently become really popular.
Yess..At first I thought it was an m4.
Euro@@dwizzleusa4202
Had these issued to us USAF Air Liaison Officers with 1sr Ranger Battalion in 1989. Rangers asked us not to take them on night missions as the muzzle flash looks like an anti-tank gun. So we checked them out and fired them once a year to stay qualified. Very nice in semi-auto but full auto was quite a challenge.
That is very clever; making your gun sound like the enemy’s. Never thought of that before.
Which begs the question: why didn't they issue AKs to the special forces in the first place? With the added benefit of being able to use captured ammo?
@@luciansoc6709 that's honestly a good question
Seals were known to use AK rifles in Nam, for the very same purpose, sound like the enemy
@@luciansoc6709 if you read Rogue Warrior, SEALs like Marcinko and his guys wore black pajamas and took AKs on raids.
@@luciansoc6709 the US military didn't want to admit their enemies created and used more practical weapons
There were several versions for the US military. There was a barrel length between the 10 inch barrel and the 11.5 inch barrel. To improve reliability, Colt originally added one inch, to make an 11 inch barrel. The US military then requested a version that would accept the XM203 grenade launcher and then an additional half inch was added to the 11 inch barrel, for the 11.5 inch barrel.
How far up the river are we going exactly?
That's classified
Quit smokin’ that dope!
antontornqvist all the way
I carried one when I was a Security Police in the USAF 1983-88. We even had some with a 10” barrel
If you play Call of duty black ops, this is the rifle the “XM4” is based off of. The M4A1 later became the updated version of this rifle.
When I was in Air Force Security in the '70s, we carried the M16 while our K9 units carried these. It's interesting to see some actual history about it. Thank you.
SOG was based in Vietnam, they operated along the Ho Chi Minh Trail, mostly in Laos and Cambodia.
"which is why ATF"
never a good thing to hear
My Father loved the M4, but rarely fired it in combat. He found the enemy and called in airstrikes. I love the 639!
After 1975, the dept. of defense wouldn't allow enlisted men veterans to buy their weapons without extreme scrutiny (registered permits). One of my Grandfather's was allowed to keep his last M1 without purchasing it from the military.
Soundsike he was Air Force TACP (Tactical Air Control Party): the "Black Berets" of AFSOC:
upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8b/TACPberet.jpg/800px-TACPberet.jpg
The explanation we were given for the moderator was that the carbines were SO loud that it was a dead give away that a small numbers SF group was in town (carbines were only provided to SF/ SO groups). They relied on looking and sounding like a much larger force, so the moderator was added to sound MORE LIKE AN M-16, to create the illusion. Any experts here to contribute?
It's the "commando" rifle.
A rare pristine beauty. This is surely going to be high priced.
I had worked in Northern Iraq as a part of Operation Provide Comfort after the first Gulf War, (mid-90s). Due to restrictions from Turkey, which we staged through to get to Iraq, we had to get our weapons off the local Iraq black market (Kurds). We mostly had AK's, few M16s, some MP5s, but my favorite gun was the XM177. Most likely, that gun had been lost by a SOG guy somewhere in SE Asia and it eventually made its way to Iraq. I wish I would have copied down the serial number and tried to track down the history...
I Flew your Med-Evac Coverage!
Awesome video Gun Jesus... this is truly a beautiful piece of American history..
I love how timeless your videos are. I have been a fan for probably 8-9 years and I'm sure I watched this video when it came out. But it feels consistent with your current content! Didn't even realize it's five years old until I hit the like button.
"Mac V. Sog" sounds like a great character name.
When he first said it, I thought he was talking about a person. Like a Vietnamese dude named Sog gets nicknamed Mac by the special forces dudes that recruited him, handed a cool new rifle and goes running through the jungle on a rampage.
Damn that sounds like a cool story. I need to get to writing.
@@wingracer1614 Yeah that's... exactly what I imagined too. Like this was some legendary Solid Snake type person.
MacDonald Vincent Sog
I play various video games and frequently make a character named sogger. I'm using the original meaning of sogger for me. Not the more current Urban dictionary version. B-)
Nobody seems to know with certainty what the original purpose of the muzzle device was, but the "make it sound like an AK" reason is one I haven't heard before. The reasons I've heard most often are taming the muzzle blast and increasing reliability, both of which sound more plausible than the AK mimicking. The rate of fire of an AK would still be substantially different.
THE NUMBERS IAN!
*WHAT DO THEY MEAN!*
The muzzle device simply brings the flash and blast down to that of the 20 inch rifle. Not to make it sound like a AK. Users quickly found that without that moderator, the gun made them a priority target, as it stood out in a fight as the brightest muzzle flash, and loudest report- making the enemy concentrate on the bearer. Making the gun rather unpopular till remedied
Running around with in Vietnam.... I dont think much of MACV-SOG spent a day in *Vietnam* LOL
That’s a piece of American history right there. Not many more badass than the SOG guys. Much respect. Can’t thank them enough.
I find it very hard to believe that the moderator was designed to make it sound like an AK, that might be helpful a for the few thousand op 35 members who carried them, but it would be harmful for the thousands of platoon leaders, dog handlers, and other grunts who used them in places with lots of friendlies.
I assume this is what John Plaster and John Stryker Meyer referred to as a 'CAR-15' in their books about their time in SOG
CAR-15 was Colt's designation of the family of M16 carbines that preceded the M4 carbine. Colt 639s, Colt 723s and many others were collectively known as CAR-15s or Colt Commandoes. Then these were all superseded by the M4 carbine when it was introduced in the 90s.
@4:04 Sorry to have to correct you, Ian but that isn't a "range adjustment wheel" but rather a windage adjustment for use in zeroing. The range adjustment is of course made by the "L" flip rear sight as you point out.
I think Ian is so used to that kind of gizmo on rifles that it's kind of an automatic thing now.
@@SnarkyPosters You notice Ian didn't make an excuse.
Facepalm inserted here.
I love this channel, thank you brother for showing us all the goods! I wish I had a friend like you to tell me all the history about every gun I know. MACVSOG I wish I could’ve been a part of them
Probably a silly question: If you want your gun to sound like an AK and you're deep in territory brimming with AKs, why not use an AK? Your enemies would be your supply chain.
Pcm979 the CIA kinda had a program to sabotage 7.62x39 ammunition such that when the sabotaged round was fired, it would blow up the gun.
For the same reason the U.S. chose the M16: can carry more ammo to start with. Not always a gaurantee that you can take your enemie's belongings.
Because you ( MACVSOG & other groups) had put over 200,000 explosive charged ammo in their caches ( bullets mortars, artillery shells etc essentially made into hand grenades that went off inside of the gun killing the user or users for artillery or mortars etc.) Over the years in the name of Psy Ops... So you didn't use them unless you could verify beyond the shadow of a doubt that it was not sabotaged ammo.
@@jacobcarrow3943 yeah, that was some sneaky shit.
It was the Cold War,only communist/eastern bloc countries really used 7.62x39 that and we were destroying the ammo
Great review. When it comes to cleaning out the moderators you’ll need to use a reamer of some sort. The fouling in the end is a build up of powder fouling and gilding metal from the bullet jackets. The reamer would be a drill bit sized to fit the inside diameter as closely as possible, modified by grinding the end square, and then grinding a proper angle on it to create a cutter. If it’s heavily fouled you might have to use a series of bits working you way up in size.
Is suppressor so effective in gunfight, so NFA restrict them? Or this is just bullshit law, similar to UK ban on ninja claws and shurikens?
It doesn't make the gun completely silent, nowhere close. There's still the mechanical operation of the gun and the bullets themselves being supersonic. It does however protect the hearing of the shooter, which is important during a firefight (to be able to communicate properly).
So, bullshit.
@@alimanski7941 And that's even IF the moderator reduces the decibels at the ear enough to be "safe". Personally, I think they were just trying to figure out how to make a DI SBR run and thank goodness: we wouldn't be were we are today without it...
Silencers neither increase nor decrease the general effect on target to any measurable degree. They are purely a device for making shooting more comfortable for the user and people in close proximity. The NFA is a law passed by the legislature and thus the BATF has to follow the letter of the law. The restriction issue only comes up when a gray area is brought up such as does rifle ammunition shot out of a pistol that could penetrate police soft armor constitute a violation of armor piercing pistol ammunition laws? In most cases hunting handguns that use rifle cartridges will receive "sporting use" exemptions. Silencers on the other hand are judged based on the criteria of "does this device reduce the decibels of a firearm shot?"
Dumb law. Suppressor are a helpful tool to protect your ears but politicians think it makes the gun silent and turns you into a hitman for having one. So they put a big tax stamp for each suppressor you want to buy and own. Also the ATF laws for the most part aren't voted on nor are they voted in by the people. To be honest states could ignore the laws per 10th amendment.
@@aaronorr5586 Point well taken. Also, suppressors reduce the shooters "signature". Great for concussion in a shoot house and general sound/flash in open terrain. Engaging enemy 800yards away, across a valley, and them having no real idea where to put that initial return fire is awesome.
This Vietnam era carbine may have been the predecessor of the current M4 carbines
The M4 is just the M16A2 version of this
a well rounded breakfast always has guns.. thank you
Well done as usual Ian. What a great back story to already awesome platform.
That's gunna sell for a LOT.
May be 40-50 grand.
50k i bet
Any word on what it sold for?
That's just not punny.
Remembering 1Lt. Danny D. Entrican M.I.A 5/18/1971 Gone but not forgotten...
Remembering SFC Jerry "Mad Dog" Schreiver. MIA 4/18/1969
Might have drooled a little over this one...
I've always thought that this was one of the coolest AR variants, hard to put exactly what I like the most about then they're just super aesthetically pleasing
The aesthetic is "everything small and relatively lightweight."
Hey Ian, I actually heard a different explanation for the sound moderator- I think it was from MAC/Tim. According to his story, the 11.5" carbines were distinctively louder than the 20" M16s, and the North Vietnamese evidently learned to identify the MACV-SOG/special ops guys from the unique sound of their gunfire. The moderator was added to tame the sound and make it more similar to the common M16, so the carbines wouldn't sound so immediately distinctive.
Interesting that this story says the moderator was supposed to make the carbine sound more like an M16, while your explanation asserts somewhat the opposite, with an entirely different tactical purpose. Any idea on provenance/veracity of either story?
Yeah, that's the first time I've heard AK but I have heard the to make it sound like the M16.
I’d have just opted to carry the AK. Cause nothing sounds more like an AK then an AK. Or runs like an AK.
I owned one until last year and was always told it was to make it sound the same as the 20” M16.
If they just wanted it to sound like an M16, why shorten the barrel to 11.5" and add a 4" muzzle device when you could just have a 15.5" barrel?
@@connormackay7098 the only length available then was 20” plus flash hider, so 5” shorter.
My understanding of the flash/sound "moderator" was to bring the flash and blast signature of a 10-11.5-inch barrel down to the level of the standard 20-inch barrel of an M-16, not to imitate( very dangerous) the sound of an AK. In addition, I have never heard nor read anything about the creation of this unusual flash/sound moderator to increase dwell time in the Commando.
What a cool little gun!
That suppressor export ban is reportedly the thing that killed the MAC M-10/11 sales as it's primary selling point was its use matched with the SIONICS suppressor designed for it.
Great video
*ATF and Carter mentioned*
Spits
These early types are the most interesting armalites/colts I think. I hope you cross paths with a 607 one of these days.
I think we need an ak sound test with this!
That gun i know is licensed produced here i the Philippines thru Elisco Tool in the 80's along with M16A1 and 653P minus the suppressor. The gun is still on active duty in the military.
Goddammit TH-cam. I have "All" + "Include creator posts" checked in the "Bell" settings for Forgotten Weapons but didn't get a notification for this video. If I hadn't randomly checked my subscriptions page and noticed it there, I would have missed this. It sure would be swell if they finally got around to fixing that issue!
He uploads every morning.
About 10 years ago I read a book by a former SOG soldier. I was much less knowledgeable back then and it was a real eye-opener for me. Those Recon guys were amazing.
Read the series "six silent men" by Reynel Martinez, the entire story of the LRRPs in Vietnam
Remember the issue of SOF, (Soldier of Fortune) where the SOG badge in color filled the whole page? It was still a little known force outside the military at that time.
Oopsie...the rear sight is windage-adjustable only, aside from the flip apartures; elevation is with the front sight, typical A1 configuration. The AK connection for the moderator is news! Thanks. :)
It absolutely is a sound and flash suppressor, it's described as such in trials and Colt documentation. It may subjectively have made it sound more like an AK but that was not its purpose (nor was it a booster of any kind although it did increase backpressure like all SUPPRESSORS do). It was purely to tame the additional noise and flash of the original 10" barrel and TRY to make it no worse than the 20" rifle, which it didn't quite manage (1 dB higher). The E2 barrel knocked 1.5dB more off.
My dad was one of those Special Forces guys that was sneaking around behind enemy lines in Vietnam, but he carried the M1D sniper rifle instead of that cap gun. Rest in peace dad.
Gary R. Gilmer
"Goofy Grape "
SFG camp A325 Duc Hue
Took one bush once in Vietnam, had a stoppage in the middle of a firefight, didn’t take it out again, but used it as a walking around weapon because it was collapsible and it could be slung under your armpit
fully transferable except in California.
Fully transferable unless you had the misfortune to be born in a state that likes to pander to people who are either communists or napkin-wringing restrictionists.
Don't forget MA and HI and provably 1 or 2 others
@Lukas Antonius That's where porn and weed come from
Add NY
Currently the Moderator uppers are for sale Online and I didn’t see anything regarding needing a tax stamp. That’s a bit odd…. I completely understand why that is it’s just my friend bought one with a fixed (welded) moderator and they are for sale. I wonder if the fact that it’s welded changes anything? Thanks for sharing this beautiful piece. 😎
They're just tube flash hiders, completely legal. They just look like the originals without the internal baffling.
During the 1960s-'70s this was called CAR-15 by US military and M-18 by the South ARVN.
TheXtro101 that's what I was thinking,
The PAVN (communist one) now are being issued with the old CARs (mostly in the South). They also call these rifles M18.
I love this guys videos. I'm not even into guns but enjoy the historical aspects.