J. S. Bach Orchestral Suite No.3. - Reinhard Göbel & Budapest Festival Orchestra
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 ต.ค. 2011
- J. S. Bach's Orchestral Suite (Overture) No.3. in D Major (BWV 1068) performed by Reinhard Göbel (conductor) and the Budapest Festival Orchestra in October, 2011, in the Italian Cultural Institute, Budapest
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I love the way he conducts, so lively and enthusiastic! He is moltovivace!
Oh,gloria del genio umano che ha inventato queste armonie di suoni che si diffondono nell'aria e pennetrano nell'anima.Oh,meraviglia di chi ha creato le note e di chi le interpreta e le esgue con accorata bravura.Grazie del mirabile dono.
Grazie, io sono tra i fortunati che le interpretano. Bach tutti i giorni !
The oboe and oboist used in this is amazing. Such talent.
Just WHY do nearly half the comments about Bach pieces on on TH-cam revolve around the particular tempi the performers or directors decide upon? To me, Bach sounds great at nearly ALL speeds.... his music is so hearty and Robust that it comes up smelling like roses no matter WHAT instrumentation, tempi or even overall interpretation one uses.. heck, even most of Glen Gould's iconic "interpretations" of Bach's keyboard music sound good!!! Just relax, people, and enjoy: Bach transcends all.
Because people with no musical talent are always critics.
@@foveauxbear😂
It must have sounded amazing live because coming across my speakers sounds fantastic!
The ouverture is out of this world....ohh Bach Bach....my bach
Exactly. This interpretation only proves that Bach's music sounds good at any tempo. It's total music, so why shouldn't it.
Zo sfeervol en van een hemelse muzikaliteit. Buitengewoon gevoelig. Fijne vertolking. Dankjewel, Lutje
Bach + Goebel =
Esta musica la habia escuchado antes pero jamas habia visto como la tocaban esto ha sido hermoso realmente, gracias por compartir este video conmigo.
00:00 - I. Ouverture
10:34 - II. Air
13:24 - III. Gavotte I/II
17:40 - IV. Bourrée
19:27 - V. Gigue
Thanks a lot
FANTASTIC, perfect in every way.
Ouvrture just out of this world....my Bach ohh my Bach
Simply beautiful!!
As much as I try, I can never get myself to appreciate the air played at this fast (proper?) tempo. It will always sound as if the conductor's just rushing through it to get to the next piece...
Same
Yes, the pace is very fast, but is it wrong? Bach didn't say a single word about tempo, so what do we know? The time signature is C. Old sources tells us that C is neither fast or slow, but something in the middle. We don't like this, because we are use to enjoy the piece very slow. Maybe the conductor still is closer to the original tempo?
And rush through it he should, its awfully boring. Move on to the superior movement that follows as soon as possible!
Bach tocca l'anima e ti dà un senso di pace unico
I agree that it is too fast, but it is wonderfully played. Bach is great at any tempo. The iconoclast pianist Glenn Gould often played Bach (and other great composers) unexpectedly slow or frighteningly fast.
Could listen to this for hours.....superlative Bach
What paltry applause for an incredible job at the end....also, I love the spirited female first violinist.....
Sublime..
BRAVO!!!
Goebel is a baroque music genius. His works with M.A.K are excellent. I didn't know he was still an active conductor.
Those who know MUSICA ANTIQUA KOLN...
beautiful
A alma agradece uma tão bela música.
That Aria, whoa! Although I can appreciate a faster tempo I do believe it 'twas a tad bit fast. Great performance nonetheless! Brava
I like this performance very much 🤗
lol.. thanks. I love Bach, and i also love unique, interesting or just non-standard interpretations and renditions of his music - which is indeed robust enough to take whatever anyone can do with it!! Bach rulez.
It sounds incredible at that tempo - puts the orchestral suite into motion, like Vivaldi's Four Seasons
Hemels, dankjewel, Lutje
I would love to hear the 1st movement with a good, strong, modern brass section.
Quelle classe !
Lacking finesse. As though they can't wait to finish and hit the bar.
Simplesmente fabuloso. In the Brazilian hasn't this wonder!
You write so much sense...
excellent
Bravo
I think that the Air was going a bit over the speed limit.
l'aria si beau, est totalement dénature par un tempo si rapide; c'est comme si le chef se refusait de se laisser inspirer par la mélodie sublime de cet aria, qui s'invite souvent dans des cérémonies funéraires a lequel il se prête si bien...
c'est une réelle performance que d'enlever a la musique de bach ce qui fait que Bach est Bach!!!
10:30 Air
thx
thx
Awesome, shocking, exiciting, etc, is something that you can to relate to sport, to yield in a concert house, or to shoot, but nothing to do with music.
Y quien afirma que debe ser mas lento....Reinhard Gobel, mi interprete favorito de la musica barroca, basta con escuchar a la Antiqua Musika Koln....es un genio....!!!
With his internal 8 cylinder engine he will be on the other side of the channel right at the beginning of the 6th Brandenburg concerto after conducted all the previous 5 on the way.
Don't understand the comments about tempo. They aren't playing it that fast. In the overture I think the problem is more that they are playing it in a way that sounds rushed. The actual pulse isn't that fast and is. Pretty usual speed for this. But the orchestra doesn't sound comfortable with the speed so it sounds like its falling part and ounds rushed. It is perfectly possible to play at this speed and still sound stable and danc like.
Rik77, that's what I meant. The tempo can't be splitted from sound. So, if sounds rushed, then the tempo should be slower.
bravooo
Göbel doing what he does best; grit your teeth zest❤️
His "style" of conducting is not a sepparate question to music. Actually, is the same question. Your afirmation is like to say "I can play violin like I want, will not change the sound". "Conducting" like that is, anyway you want to believe, wrong. Of course, I only wrote about "the historical accuracy of stuff like "conducting" for to make the point of there's not a single wiew about "historical interpretation"
To my mind, the music of Bach is very "robust": it can sound great within a much wider range of tempi, ornamentation, variation and instrumentation than almost any other composer. Its harmonic structure is intricate and its artistry is amazing....its able to withstand a lot of different treatments and still come out smelling like roses most of the time!! Whether a particular treatment is in the "sweet" zone for a given Bach piece, is usually simply a matter of personal preference.
I love the speed of the 2nd movement ... in Bach's manuscript it's simply referred to as "air" or song. Bach seldom ever gave tempo indications. The reason most of us know this as a slow dirge is that the likes of Karajan and other 20th century conductors had no clue about how Bach might've actually been performed or thought about.
A little presumptuous there I'd say David. I've heard all the perfomances you conducted of all the great works BTW.
@@andyarmstrong4750 I actually agree with David Trainer.....Karajan's and other 20th C conductors often filtered earlier music through the lens of Richard Strauss.....and the results were dishonest....however the Air sounds a bit perfunctory at this speed....and does not contrast with the faster dances.
David Trainer, quote: «Bach seldom ever gave tempo indications». Well, this is both right and wrong. If we don’t find any tempo indication, the composers meant «tempo ordinario». Air has time signature C. They counted four beat per measure, but what kind of beat?Heart beats! A human function normally with 60-80 heart beats per minute, some sources say 50-80. We count around 58 heart beats per minute in this version of Air. That means the tempo maybe is historical correct.
Um... i said no such thing, no matter how you look at it. I said in fact, that with Bach, things such as tempo and instrumentation are nearly irrelevant: the music of the Master of so many things musical, is simply so amazing and versatile that it can be interpreted in many ways and still come up smelling like roses!! When played by good musicians who have even a basic music sensibility and a few ounces of musicality, Bach ALWAYS sounds great, no matter how it is approached.
Crazy fast tempi! Not to my liking but well played for the most part. The audience reaction says volumes about the conductor’s interpretation !
Thanks for your words.- even I still think spanish is most common than hindi :)
Were they afraid to miss the train?BWV1068 at this speed is a sacrilege
Grüße aus dem Musik Unterricht
Emotional gravelly train!!
10:38 Amazing!!! :')
Bach Bach Bach
I tend to believe the Air is closer to the the tempo Bach intended.
Of course, that's what I mean! : ) And there's no paper for Bach (or maybe one or two works, but I don't know anything about stuff like that).
If you play the score, you can hear the relation between interval, rhythms, harmonies, etc. and then discover what music, ear and conscience needs in tempo, phrasing, etc. Anyway, you can't trust any recording, because the recording ever looses something. And by treatie I mean ", like "sur l'art de jouer la flute" or "Versuch einer gründlichen Violinschule".
I enjoyed listening to this for my homework, but I found the "Air" movement much to fast. I thought it was supposed to be played at a much slower tempo...
I haven't read all these comments, but all I can say is "tell these people to get Italian bows and play this music with some nuts." See the Saint Martin in the Fields recording.
Is the introduction Grave?
No. There is no tempomarks at the beginning. Edition: Dover
Well, I don't know where you got that. Hindi is the third most common language in the world. But may I say that your English is a lot better than my Spanish, mainly because I have had no real occasion to learn it. I still have trouble with French, what with those goddam verbs and genders. I notice your English verbs are still a bit incorrect, but you are quite understandable nonetheless. Keep up the good work!
Ария непривычно быстро играется здесь.
Dieser "Dirigent" ist immer auf der schnellen Seite. Schade um diese schöne Musik !!!
Anyway, I agree that there's something you gain and something you loose in Goebel interpretation. Hopefully we can find something that cover booth interpretation, listening all the notes and the whole "one-phrase" that's a piece. I'm sure of it, and I hope we'll find a lot of times. Sorrowfull not in recordings.
le tempo rapide dégrade fortement la beauté de l œuvre surtout pour le passage de l aria ...
@shanman150 could not agree more
En realidad es Musica Antiqua Köln, la mejor orquesta q interpreta al periodo barroco....Quizas esta orquesta de Budapest no sea tan brillante y precisa como la MAK, pero se nota la mano de Goebel....lo mismo me encantó...buena interpretacion..
At last, you may to believe that's not important in Bach scores not listen everything. Of course you can't (I can't imagine how) to listen a "cross", but of course you can (without a great training) to listen a canon, or whatever is in Bach's scores. And of course sounds awesome. But awesome is not the goal of music, but something more, beyond awesome. Music is not for to do something "awesome, shocking, exciting, etc". You can also take look in Bach's writtings.
Is this a full Orchestra? Is there a soloist on an orchestral suite? Why did the conductor only shakes hand with one of the violinist? I am a layman and I would like to know what an Orchestral Suite has in common to a Concerto. Thanks.
This is a full orchestra in the sense of a baroque period orchestra (actually already enlarged compare to what bach had in his days) around the 1600s to 1750. There is no soloist in this orchestral suite. the conductor shook hands with the first chair of the first violin section because he is the "concert master", a position of leadership in the orchestra. However, back in bach's day there rarely was a conductor, bach performed this piece usually with himself on the harpsichord and conducting at the same time. you can check out the performance by ton koopman and the amsterdam bach soloists.
You are right for palace music, not for most of church music.
There are a few oddities here. Why only 3 violas? They could've solved that balance problem by having one of the second violinists switch to viola; 6-5-4-4-2 makes more sense than 6-6-3-4-2. Why are those two flute players sitting on stage through this whole piece when there's no part for them? And since when is the Budapest Festival Orchestra a period instrument ensemble? If they're mainly modern players who just picked up Baroque instruments for this concert that would account for the sloppy and crude playing by what are obviously fine professional musicians. The fast tempo for the Air might have worked if there was more shaping of the phrase and better interplay among the voices, but as it is it feels rushed and perfunctory. And there were some scrappy entrances that felt easily preventable had the conductor just took some deep breaths.
Hm..... timing is definitely not "everything", but a) yes its important i must agree, but b) "timing" would refer to when the notes are played in relation to each other... relating to rhythm and rubado, not to tempo, which is just average metronome speed. To a large degree, i really think that Bach's music more or less sounds good - or can be MADE to sound good - at pretty well any speed you wish to take your interpretation to. It also sounds good no matter what instrumentation you choose.
So, at last, when someone like Göbels does something like that, is not because there's a proof of that tempo. They only says "I readed more documents than you, you must to shut up". Lol.
But if you play a Bach piece, for example, you may to discover a lot, only by listening, and trying the best for to understand the piece till the end. Because in music there's something you can to discover, something that's valid for everyone. If there's not, you can't to enjoy without information.
Why the AIR is so fast??
Cause Bach didn't say a single word about tempo. The time signature is C, neither fast or slow, but something in the middle. I can understand you, it sounds unusual, but maybe Gobel are closer to the "correct" tempo than many others?
It's the way it should be.
Ah, I see "Air" has now been renamed "Gale Force Wind". Pity.
Double speed indeed !
Hans de Korver, how do you know? Bach didn't say anything about slow tempo. The time signature is C. Old sources tells us that C is neither fast or slow but something in the middle. Maybe this tempo is closer to the original? But I don't like this performance.
this isn't in d?
why does he play "Air" so fast? :'(
Why not? :) It's interesting.
@@arsantiquawarsaw and nonsense too :)
@@albertclemente8739 Reinhard Goebel is my old neighbor! He knows his music, is writing a book about Bach at the moment. I assume he has his reasons. Often times, when we hear musicians playing in the street, they aren't playing a piece true to its composer's wishes. I'm assuming Goebel knows his apocyphal literature and is aware at what
approximate time signature the piece was written in.
oh, are'nt composers intentions what sounds best? Where says how must to sound the music? I didn't found a single document where it tells. That's why Harnoncourt, Brüchen, Göbels, Gardiner and so on don't find a single way to play this music in papers. So what reminds but to hear?
the whole thing seems just a bit too fast
This is very fast to my taste as I prefer Furtwagler's or Knappertsbusch's recording. However, overall well executed without too much rushing. Still it sounds like brasses have hard time catching up in multiple points.
As others said, the "Aria" is way too fast... it would be a menuet if it were a 3/4... :D More like a sarabande... IMHO, an aria is not a dance, so it should not be played as if it were... That said, performers are very good indeed. I enjoyed the rest of it, and in a sense, even the aria, after the initial shock. :)
Sorry for my bad English.
Manuel Lopez
"As other said, the "Aria" is way too fast".... Who are the other people? Maybe they not even read notes? If not, how do they know the pace is way too fast? Ok, they read notes, they play the piece on the piano at home. The tempo marks say Grave, or Largo, or Adagio or maybe Lento, often added "ma non tanto" bla bla bla. Bach, the composer don't tell us anything about tempo, not a single word. We know the time signature - C. Not fast or slow, but someting in the middle. Do "other" people know "Air" from Bach's Partita e minor? The time signature is cutting C, not any slow time signature.
Reinhard Gobel try to restore the well known piece, he try to bring the piece back to life. "Air" has often been played in funerals. Be sure everybody, funeral was not in the composers mind when he composed this piece. How can I know? I don't, but I bet that all the bodies left theyr coffins at the moment the trumpets and timpany started to play!
geir øyvind eskeland Great response. I enjoyed it. If any work by any composer is only supposed to be played or interpreted in one certain way, I think it would be a very boring musical world.
Manuel López sono d'accordo con te...non si può ascoltare!
At last, do you have any document that says wich are the right tempo? So, how can you know that's right? You don't know. So is possible (only possible) that I'm right. Then, why are you so angry with my critic?
No, the tempo of the Air is quite defensible.
10:15
Whoa, what's your problem with verbs and infinitives? It's really not that difficult.
Don't know why are you talking about my english. The main problem here is the tempo, not my english.
This sounds like it's in D-flat, rather than D.
Yeah, baroque music uses an A 415Mhz music pitch,, that´s why,,
Ah, that explains it, thanks.
Buena orquesta...
Pero el que filma está enamorado de una violinista...!!!!,,
That's a fast tempo.
Poor Budapest, to have Gobel drive them so, and cause them to fall apart. jeez. A living example of how tempi are altogether relevant, aiming for sweet range, yes.
"supposedly humble".... lol!! Interesting phrase.
lol the director goes into psycho-modus just a few seconds into the vid
Then what you are proposing is that tempo is both vital, and redundant at the same time,.. you can't have it both ways. If care is not taken to counter the rationale of relativism eventually all that is left is a flat banality.Judgement is seen as corrosive within this mentalty, and sound judgement is what spurs achievement.
Air sounds like they had to catch a bus lol
tallshort, I am sorry fo my inadequate English. Forget the bus. The conductor try to bring this old music a bit closer to the original style. There is nothing wrong with the pace in Air, it sounds bad because we are use to a much slower pace. Bach didn’t mentioned anything about slow pace. The time signature is C, inother words - tempo ordinario. So maybe the conductor are closer to the original tempo, but I don’t like this performance.
yeah, yeah, but what about Glen's other tempi - the ones that don't sound so good?
... timing is every-t-h- ing.
Sure. I think (most) of musicians (like this one), work a lot, and no one do without reasons- most of time. I know the difference between "historical" and "historically informed". I think that at last are only labels.- music is music, as mankind is mankind. But choices may be wrong. I say choice in tempo, choice in phrasing, but specially choice in "conducting" gesture are bad choosed
here from pyrocynical
Wtf they took Air way too fast...
The Booty Guru, I am sorry for my inadequate English. Reinhard Gobel make an attempt to restore this old music. We know for sure that the pace we are used to in our days is way too slow. This music were rediscovered in the middle of 1800, 100 years after Bachs lifetime. Baroque music and how to perform it were allmost forgotten. At the time this music were rediscovered, the contemporary composers filled their autographs with a lot of informations related to tempo, crescendo, diminuendo and so on. When the music by Bach started to be popular and people asked for printed notes, the publishers faced a problem - they couldn't find any information by the composer at all in the autographs, a common practise back then. Therefore, the publishers wrote their own opinions that later on were printed. So far I have seen several suggestions connected to Air: Largo, Adagio, Andante and Lento. What do the composer telling us? The time signature is C. Old sources say that the time signature C is neither fast or slow, but something in the middle. You may not like this, but I believe the pace in this performance is closer to the original. Please listening to the performance by Croatian Baroque Ensemble. A little bit slower, and a far better performance.