Auro-3D Upmixer - Ceiling Speakers as Heights? Dolby Surround vs. dts neural:x vs. AURO-3D
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 22 ก.พ. 2023
- Auro-3D Upmixer - Ceiling Speakers as Heights?
Upmixers - Dolby Surround vs. dts neural:x vs. AURO-3D
If this works what sounds better - Dolby Surround upmixer? dts neural:x upmixer? or AURO-3D upmixer?
Auro-3D requires a speaker layout that is different from Dolby Atmos. Whereas Ceiling mounted speakers are common with Atmos, Auro-3D places most of the height channel on the top of the front, side or rear walls. Only a single ceiling channel is used with some Auro-3D configurations. If you only have ceiling mounted speakers in the Dolby Atmos placement configuration, can you utilize them for use with Auro-3D? While that may not be the prescribed configuration, this video explores that possibility.
Immersive Formats 2022 - Who's Winning? Getting them all - Auro 3D, Dolby Atmos, dts:X, dts:X Pro
• Immersive Formats 2022...
#hometheater #marantz #avreceiver #ripewave #auro-3d - บันเทิง
It has been almost 8 months since Saffelberg Investments purchased Auro. It will be interesting for follow their progress with this new owner. Last news I heard was both Storm and Trinnov demonstrating Auro-CX at CES this year. Auro-CX has been talked about since at least 2018 and it seems that effort is being carried across the finish line under the new structure to enter them into the streaming market which is currently dominated by Atmos. -Jon
Yes, I would like to hear the newer formats in sound. Currently looking at an Orei up scaler to do that, as I have an older system.
The auro3d middle layer is designed to simulate sounds above you, so the specs have the heights at 30deg from the MLP (middle listening position) or ear. So like 12 feet up on the wall. Then the heights speakers are to be angled down to strike just above the head, as if standing it would be at the MLP. There are diagrams you can reference.
The reason the middle layer is designed this way is the developer working in a musical symphony theatre was recording the music but was unsatisfied how the recordings were missing the full upper layers. So he experimented and added recorders higher up and being a sound designer spent the effort creating an algorithm that sounded the closest to what he expected to hear with the way the brain understands sound comes at us in more than a single channel direction.
So the base layer is utilized to give data to the heights, therefore full loudspeakers are recommended and can use all of that power and detail to create superb middle and top layers. Were as atmos often has quite small speakers in the heights, and in auro the bigger you go with the heights the better!
The use of full speakers everywhere makes sense. I got one of the larger set of ceiling speakers - but they are still not full range. -Jon
Wilfried Van Baelen is an audio genius.
I find an Auro 3D speaker layout using height speakers directly above the ear level speakers is easier to achieve and simpler. Putting speakers above in ceiling is a pain in the butt by comparison. My 5.1.4 Auro 3D layout works great during Dolby Atmos content as well when not using the Auro 3D up mixer. Best of both worlds.
Dolby has even added the heights being at 30 degree angle above ear level to the approved Dolby Atmos recommended specifications.
@@JonMoralesLAwhere does it say you can do 30?
@@whitecrowuk575 Google “Dolby Atmos 30 degrees” and I think you’ll find your answer. I have tried it myself and found Dolby Atmos still works great in the Auro 3D height configuration of speakers 30 degrees above base layer as measured from main listening position. Also Auro 3D setup has those heights aimed at standing height at the main listening position and NOT directly at the seated height. That’s how I have mine setup and again, sounds fantastic. Run the Atmos demo material and be amazed at how great it sounds in this configuration.
at 3min when you show the GUI living room diagram if you look directly under the picture it says Main Zone and under that "Support Formats." It changes and gives you information in real time as you change the layout of what formats are supported. As you adjusted it Auro3D populated this list. It's a helpful message support denon adds in the manual and in the GUI to help people understand.
Wow! I completely missed that detail. Thanks so much for pointing that out. So helpful to me and others. -Jon
Just got my 3800H and the only setting I use is Auro and I love it
Hai i am from India i own the 3800 too i am happy with it except for the fact that the calibrated sound settings go for a toss every time i switch between inputs , which is a pain in the ass 😡, tried all the tricks i known still the same , i had it configured as a 7.1 system and had the audessy to off and set the manual. E q and saved the settings but if i switch from streamer to my Blu ray and then switch back to the streamer ( using quick select) it goes back to audessy and then i have to re do the whole thing over again , i am frustrated with this , other than this the amp is really good, i might swap it out with the 4800 , it's a nightmare for me , are you facing any issues with your receiver or is it just me , 😥
Try factory reset or call Denon
@@GAVhometheatreguide8226 I think there is a selector to switch between preset 1 or 2 and audessy, I think it may be adjustable per input but I can't remember.
@@trauma50disaster1 Yes there are two memory presets for Audyssey. You can quickly switch between presets using the remote
I found the same for the dtsX "cutting out." Others have noticed that and I think it's a breakdown in the algorithm. Where as Auro3D sounds fuller because it's algorithm is designed to simulate the sounds that would come to the ear across the bubble of space around you. For instance, a vehicle approaching you gives off sound more than in one channel directly at you, there is natural sound fields high and low coming towards you. That is what the hight speakers are creating the middle and 3rd layer (with vog).
I appreciate the additional elements you added in your response. I am looking forward to experiencing more - I will pay addition to the characteristics you listed. -Jon
I find that Neural-X works far better with movies than it does for music. Dolby Surround works better for music (with center spread on) than it does with movies. Auromatic excels with both.
Another major issue with both Dolby Surround and Neural-X, is that they are both absolutely TERRIBLE with old TV shows. They dump everything to the center channel and sound like a mono-mix. I have heard Auromatic with multichannel movies and stereo music and it sounds outstanding. I am hoping that Auromatic works well for upmixing older tv shows too. Because right now I use Multichannel stereo with those.
@@FURognar well said FUR
Thanks for that analysis one these three upmixing technologies. I need to play around with center spread as well. I know that feature was removed and adding back due to popular demand - so it must be important. Glad you mentioned. Also like the insight as too what content each excels at. -Jon
You always give accurate suggestions hats off sir
Plz GIVE ME THE FLAGSHIP AVR WHICH SUPPORT EVERYTHING LIKE AURA 3D DIRAC AMOS ETC. AND SUGGEST ME THE HIGH END SPEAKER FOR PROPER HOME THEATER PLZ SIR
I am glad you find this guidance helpful.
There are a lot of parameters that go into selecting the right model for someone. Features? Price? Sound quality? Style?
I typically start with the speaker layout you are seeking. That will be a 9.4.8 configuration at best for the under $10,000 group. The Denon receiver I am reviewing right now can handle 9.4.4 or 7.4.4 layouts and all the common sound formats, including Auro-3D. Keep in mind there is no perfect receiver or processors that has “everything”, but typically close enough.
For best sound quality you may actually loose sound features, but gain others.
There are speakers systems that range is cost all the way up to the price of a house. Knowing someone’s budget helps, but for me I am not sure I would spend more then $3000 for speaker and that is really past my limit.
I feel the Polk Audio Reserve or Legend series are a good value system that perform well. Although I am not familiar with Focal, I feel they be a step up from Polk. If you want to spend less there is serval popular brands - SVS, Emotiva, etc. I just haven’t auditioned. -Jon
I am in the process if upgrading my system and I will be using height channels specifically so I can use Auro3D.
I will be setting up a 7.4.6 so that I can have front height and rear height positioning and still have top-middle speakers directly above the audience.
Good news is that a firmware update is coming for D&M receivers that allows use of Top front, top rear and top middle speakers for Auro3D.
In addition to that, they are enabling the ability for Atmos to use the Surround height position as well. So there will no longer be set up limits in regards to immersive format. At least with Denon and Marantz receivers and processors.
thanks for that update, where can I get that info on upcoming firmware changes? I don't have that on the denon x3800h yet.
Thanks for listing all the firmware enhancement for Denon and Marantz. So nice to hear that upgrade are delivering new features - not just fixes.-Jon
Know if 2020 models will get the update? Specifically SR8015 else X8500HA?
@@truwarrior22 just the new 2022/2023 models as far as I know
This is all true and the update I believe has been released already. The thing is that Auro 3D works best in the height speaker configuration where the heights are directly above the ear level speakers at approx 30 degrees above when measured from the MLP. With Auro 3D it is particularly recommended that you don’t place the height speakers closer to the main listening position than the ear level speaker below and that is the problem with using in ceiling speakers setup per the Dolby Atmos recommended specs. Those ceiling speakers, per the spec, are more forward than the ear level speakers which will totally screw with the way the up-mixer is designed to work.
Also in a proper Auro 3D setup you are aiming the height speakers not directly at the main listening position but rather above the main listening position at roughly standing height.
So think of Auro 3D heights as creating a layer of sound above the MLP where the Dolby Atmos spec has the ceiling speakers more above the MLP and aimed directly down toward the MLP.
It seems counterintuitive but Auro 3D is a work of psycho acoustic genius. The Auro 3D layout really works and it works great for Atmos too.
I think some people who switch to Auro 3D without implementing the proper speaker layout end up being underwhelmed by the effect. So keep that in mind that even though it’s possible doesn’t mean your going to get a good result by using an Atmos speaker setup with Auro 3D.
I love approach you have to videos and effort you give in to testing.
Not always I agree with all but I think you are really doing a great job with presenting options in your videos.
Love your topics also.
Great job mate if you ask me.
Edit: Auromatic is by far superior in music for my taste then Dolby or DTS. Only mode I love beside stereo.
I use height channels, front and back. Using Polk Audio Signature Elite 10 as heights and B&W 600 series with sub as bed layer.
Thanks for the kind feedback. Feel free to point out items you may disagree with. We can have a healthy debate and I may learn something. -Jon
Good stuff, thanks
John, thank you so much for the quick response. One more question I have the Denon X5200W if I down load the auro 3-D does that also come with the up mixer I know it’s an older receiver, but would it be worth it to do on an old unit or just upgrade thank you.
"AURO-3D"
All the way.... I placed a
Klipsch Pro 6504 L THX In-Ceiling Speaker for THE V. O. G
KL-6504-THX employs four high-output 5.25-inch fiberglass woofers for powerful bass impact while a 1-inch titanium tweeter mated to a new symmetrical pattern 90 x 90 square Tractrix® Horn generates flat in-room frequency response with high efficiency and low distortion.
Auro 3D front stage sound is simply the best... Music experience or Movies.
My theatre is more Alive in this, format
👊 😊👌 9:11
It appears that Denon and perhaps Marantz has changed things a bit relative to Auro 3D. My AVR-X6700H now allows top speaker configuration to support Auro 3D.This probably happened with the latest firmware update.
Thanks Jerry - you are correct. That change with March update just after I published this video
@@ripewave Keep up the good work. I'm considering a pre-processor to replace my Denon and have enjoyed your videos. I have a Monolith 11X. Thanks.
Currently I'm using 5.2.4 setup on yamaha A4A. But I notice Denon X6700H is on sale in Thailand for 2068 USD. I think it's a good price when comparing to the SR8085.
So that leads me to the road of 13.2 setup in the next few days. Before I ordered 6700H I'm pretty curious about auro 3d somich because this is the main reason that make me jump from my A4A to 6700H.
And I do a lot of research about the best auro 3d placements and I didn't see anything that can match or looks similar with the atmos placements. Because I want to set 2 front and 2 rear heights with 2 top ceiling speakers. But I can't see any one set up like this with auro 3d.
Until now I saw denon just update the FW on a mount ago to make top ceiling speakers can work with auro 3d now.
I'm pretty happy about my decision now and i will do some updates when my new setup is complete
I think your configuration can work well with Auro-3D. From those that have a middle row of ceiling speakers they say the two channels blend to create a phantom top center channel. -Jon
@@ripewave I completed renovation on just month ago.
Currently my 6 Atmos channels are 2 heights on front + 2 heights rear + 2 top ceiling. It works well with Auro 3d.
- District 9 is one of the most helicopter sounds. And it's very effective in. I feel it's above and around me depending on the object's movement.
- Top gun Marverick before pre flight the radio is coming from above between top ceiling and rear heights. And front heights
- Ready player one race scene. King Kong is on my head for real including T-Rex
I can confirm, Most blockbuster movies are works really well on auro3D by the combination of 3 layers. For a movie lover like me this is totally worth it. It's a big upgrade when comparing with my old set up
So what difference in overall sound was there between ceiling and wall height speakers, if any, keeping both setups at a 30 degree declination angle towards the MLP?
For Denon and Marantz this video was made obsolete with the March firmware update to the newest models. Now speakers configured for ceiling can be used for Auro 3D. The ceiling speakers I use, the Polk Audio 900-ls has the drivers tilted towards the listener at a fixed angle. At the height and distance I have mounted it works out that they are aimed at the main listening position. -Jon
@@ripewaveThank you for the videos!They've been incredibly helpful.
Currently setting up a 7.1.4 configuration and can only mount speakers on ceiling angled toward MLP. Top/heights will have to be further in from mains by about 3 feet, but that still produces the same distance from MLP to the speakers as to my base speakers.
Will this worsen the Auro3D quality by much?
Hi John can I take advantage of aura 3D with 5.1.4 ceiling speakers I’m lost all new to this thanks in advance
Yes. While the Auro-3D decoder and upmixer will work with a 7.1.4 configuration, Auro-3D typically does not use rear surround channels. So a 5.1.4 will work just fine. -Jon
what about for movies upmixing? how does auro3d compare with the other upmixing for 5.1 sources as 80% -90% of the sources on netflix are 5.1
I haven’t tried yet - good suggestion. I will do some exploring perhaps report back. -Jon
I like both but prefer Auro 3D
That is a fair comment and shared by many who write in. I plan on doing more with Auro-3D in 2024. I might configure front heights to compare against my current front ceiling speakers along with a top center speaker. -Jon
Wow ..I have try it..but will still separate sound like rain, helicopter,plane overhead like Atmos does
I tested the Dolby Atmos demo disc Auro vs Dolby. I have the proper Auro 3D speaker layout. I found that Demos sounded better in Auro 3D than in Atmos. I was pleasantly shocked. My favorite Dolby Demo disc demo is the one with the bouncy balls moving around. Auro 3D was more convincing on the sounds correlating with the visual cues on the screen. The helicopter also sounded more convincing as to its movement and direction in the space. Just all around Auro sounded noticeably better to me than native Dolby Atmos.
What sucks is that I left to Spain for 3 months in the midst of my test with the 3800h. Can’t wait to get back home and do some more listening. Rogue One sounded amazing in Auro as well. I have her to test Auro with any BluRay content though other than Demo disc. So that’s something I’m looking forward to as well.
I use Auro3D for movies but not for music. Music - Dolby surround sounds better to me.
That is the great thing about having all formats available- you can select the one you like the most for each type of material you play. -Jon
outdated info. As of Mar 26 denon rolled out firmware allowing A3D through existing Atmos in ceiling setups.
Yes the new March 2023 firmware eliminates the need for cheating on models that support that update. I posted a video explaining that enhancement 3 days ago.-Jon
Helo sir which reciver is best imax inhance & auro 3d reciver modealo no company name pl msg me sir
The only brands which support both IMAX Enhanced and Auro-3D are Arcam, AudioControl, Denon, JBL Synthesis and Marantz. What that really boils done to is two options due to the common platforms:
Platform 1) Denon and Marantz
Platform 2) Arcam, AudioControl and JBL Synthesis
These start at $1700 for Denon AVR-X3800H and go up to $8,550 for the JBL Synthesis SDR-38. What you select needs to start with the speaker layout you need to support. From a sound quality / low cost balance perspective the Denon AVR-X4800H suites many with it 7.4.4 configuration support.
Jon
movies..Dolby s> Auro 3d >stereo >DTS.X< NO no no hate it
Tv.. Auro 3d> multi stereo> Dolby.S> stereo
believe it or not I find some films sound better in just stereo put a flat 5.1 format and have it through stereo if you toe your speakers correctly the phantom speakers sound much better than any amount of up mixing the sounds are all around you front the cars passing in front across the screen all the whooshing sounds from all directions the reason being the up mixing takes a lot of sound from the front speakers (most important ones) and tries to pass that up mix through to the rest of the speakers and that can in fact sound worse than the stereo sound stage that just puts everything where its supposed to be through phantom speaker effect.
Anyone starting, out try it with an HIFI if you already have one its better than the TV speakers and you will get the sounds coming from behind and above providing the film was masted in dolby that is pretty much standard these days going back 30 years.
I lived with a 5.1 setup for over 20 years and was content. I have since moved to 7.2.4 layout and prefer that experience. I respect that the additional immersive channels are not for everyone. I find litter little content I can actual notice from the listening position coming from the rear surround, but the height channels are active enough to be noticeable. Where I align more with you is when the front center channel is over utilized - particularly when listening to 2.0 channel sources that are upmixed. Glad you shared you perspective, because I feel that both views are valid. -Jon
Listen, Auro3D by farrrrr sounds better than Atmos I’m sorry but u guys need to all switch over now
You may be right - however, we will need to convince Hollywood to provide Auro format content - at least in the US there is nothing. Some say Atmos movies sound better with Auto up-mix but native content would be better. I would like to option to choose may playback format. -Jon
@@ripewave When calling for more native Auro content… isn’t this a fundamental misunderstanding of the appeal of Auro 3D being the up-mixer?
I didn’t buy a receiver with Auro 3D for native Auro 3D content (virtually none available). I wanted the feature for the Auromatic up-mixer that takes base layer 5.1 or 7.1 Dolby and up-converts it to make excellent use of the height speakers.
This is to address the under utilized use of height speakers in most Dolby Atmos movies mixes.
So if anything, a call for better native Dolby Atmos mixes is what should be called for and NOT more Auro 3D native content when it comes to movies. I’m a big fan of Auro 3D and feel like I get the satisfaction out of my height speakers that I’m missing out on from the poor state of Dolby Atmos mixes.