The conclusion that the indigenous critique of European societies which created the modern discussion and most of the tools to think about the origins of inequality, was itself the result of millenia of conscious political struggle passed down through oral histories, myths and stories, and very intentional structuring of societies, near infinite trial and error, is perhaps the most inspiring political theory I've come across.
Being a "legal" immigrant to the United States, the "freedom to move" is one topic that I feel we have taken away from so many refugees around the world. As Dr. Wengrow mentioned at the end of this event, we should continue many of the debates to give us more chances of building better future societies.
Yes, brilliant idea! I can think of quite a few people who would like to migrate to Samoa and enjoy the island life. I'll bet the whole freedom to move debate gets a lot more problematic and legalistic if they do, don't you think? And I'll bet you a ticket to any "indigenous nation" that this whole business of conflating "legal migration" with notions of being a refugee becomes a lot fussier and more diverted into silly concerns with one another's skin colour when it does.
I am wading into this area of thought after having immersed myself into prevailing theories of deterministic subjugation. The notion that there are other ways of organizing civilization is exhilarating. It is sad that many of those other ways have been lost to conventional anthropological thought and booted out of the literature. These seminal conversations on this magnificent new opus of "Everything" have given me more to think about, and perhaps hope, than the past several years of political upheaval and autocracy spreading throughout the United States and around the world.
If you’re looking for more examples, the libertarian revolution in Catalonia/Spain during the Spanish Civil War in 1936, the EZLN/Zapatistas of Mexico, the Free Territories of Ukraine, the Paris Commune, and the Autonomous Administration of Northeastern Syria aka Rojava provide really great examples of how we can organize in the present day.
35:56 - This is fascinating ... Wengrow is talking about a famous intellectual Native American who went to Paris and was shocked at how the Europeans would treat their own people, allowing them to fall into poverty and destitution. It is so bizarre that today's white supremacists talk about how superior white culture, don't wanna lose the European culture, and how great it is, are pretty much the first ones to ignore their own people in favor of anything that boosts their own wealth or power.
Well the dialogue appears in a book by Lahontan in 1699. But the character Adario is inspired by Kondiaronk, it is not Kondiaronk. Check the sources!!!
The book is a masterpiece and as the presenter says has many lol moments. But overall the humanity of it is inspiring. Change is coming people and we need to shape it as this book shows we can ✊
Changes never is swift and it will take more than a generation or two of "neo-cientists" to be spread around. Never forget the amazing power of the Old way of thinking and the political ramifications of the change in their mindset. Unfortunately...
no one leaves when the new one is inside you. Valencia, Spain appreciates no one leaves when the new one is inside you. Valencia, Spain appreciates you ❤️
Around the 30 minute mark, the conversation is about the French and the Native Americans. If you want to read an in-depth history of the French regime (along with English and Dutch) in North America: The White and The Gold, by Thomas Costain ~1500-1700 Century of Conflict, by Joseph Lister Rutledge ~ 1688-1759
Even as a child in the 50s I didn't believe that N America was populated only when the Siberian/Alaskan link became passable. I've often contended that people walked along shorelines and some tribes sailed. I also think much of our human history is under seas and ice. Of course degreed scientists mocked my ideas. For more than 50 year I've waited for scientists to open up to my coastal-migration thinking and I'm so relieved that these folks have done excellent work in this type of examination.
@@mkor7 spot on! I believe also that civilization as we know it began in the Americas. Certainly earlier than Sumer or the area of the fertile crescent. When genetic testing will be more refined will have an amount of data to transform the actual "version of evolution" so incredibly vague and confusing.
I am a simple, uneducated human being and I have thought we should be doing things better since I was able to conceptualize self and society. For the longest time I thought there was something wrong with ME, that I didn't fit society; I have since determined society is sick and is following or being directed by the wrong motivation and devolving influences.
You are not wrong.. my friend. Society IS sick. Basic needs of the individual straining against a globalized, social experiment gone wrong, in which we continue to worsen by insanely trying the same solution, over and over again, and hoping for different results; for example, always tinkering with economic cycles of our wasteful, unsustainable consumeristic based financial structure, hoping itll keep improving 'this time', before worsening and resetting itself... I'm not sure where Im even going with this but youre not wrong... You just notice how most of us have heads, in fact, our entire bodies, buried in the sand.
Delightful conversation. I can't wait for the bookstore to, again, be a safe place to get too much coffee and read. Sounds like an incredible book that's very much needed.
10/10 comment, would mindless scroll past, chuckle lightly as induced by consensus of agree/"getting" paired cultural reference, and continue to mindlessly scroll indefinitely again! these got dang liberal LIEbraries fillin' er kids' heads up with got danged "NEW-ance" and CON-text and whathaveyou, we need some TRUTHbraries I'll tell y'all what, we'll _make em_ set the record on freedom straight, murica shines like a beacon of light/city on hill/[insert preferred nebulous archetype of "goodness" here] for aspiring bourgeois global dictators/dictatorships everywhere dammit, y'all can't take that away! idk why i wrote last part, I think it was inspired by the snowflakery comment, sorry.
The audio is too weak even with headphones. I will try watching the program on my TV with a sound amplifier. I am sure this will be extremely interesting if I can actually hear it. Probably nothing exceeds the brutality and killings by modern , so called civilized humans as seen in various wars in the 20th and 21st century. As weapons become smart mass killing instruments , killing can take place over the horizon. Emotion plays no role. The trend is towards more efficient destruction of lives and assets.
This Egyptian scholar’s contribution, joining by zoom, is not as impressive as the author or other lady. BTW, I totally agree with you that the sound level is annoyingly too low.
Read the Davids' book to understand that we are actually stuck in a very specific form of society and then read Jack Forbes' "Columbus and Other Cannibals" to understand just how pathological it is.
Totally, the continuity is staggering when it's actually merely noticed when something like the Davids' book reveals such an ideological lacuna, at the risk of ranting forever at the request of no one, some "highlights" coming to mind to start the "new" year (lol...): the Sioux treaty in the Black Hills immediately reneged after gold discovered there (shocker) while Mount Rushmore constructed as a literal façade over such history as a monument to the "great" -primitive accumulators- leaders of our past; explicitly lifting the structural implementation of the "balance of powers" thing from the Iroquois's Great Law of Peace, still "savages" though apparently, of course, how conveniently it justifies our "manifest destiny" aka obvious genocide, the social pressure valve of moving westward to alleviate capital's dictatorship over the working class. Really, going back to the federalist papers and the -counterrevolution- "founding", these guys all _always_ agreed on one thing despite our uncoincidentally cultivated ubiquitous and dogmatically accepted mythology regarding "democracy": that such common people should _never_ actually have any direct input as their lack of property ownership and thus lack of already existing social dominion over black, poor, and indigenous people was indicative of their lack of "virtue" or "merit", following along the same lines as Plato's five regimes where democracy is the stage of government directly before tyranny and the optimates of Rome before them, crushing the populares from the Gracchi bros and later Caesar by of course famously just straight up murdering them in the senate, our own senate an explicit homage to their government structure of imperial domination (gee, what happened to them...lol?...). Colonialism by all definitions is the father to a genocide (shoutout to the band Protest the Hero, revealing this historical context overwritten by the victors is basically the entire concept their latest album Palimpsest; disclaimer: is unnecessarily complicated prog metal lol). But of course such "ressentiment" fueled hubris is never satisfied, even with everything, more recent atrocities rarely if ever discussed despite being insane, Allen/John Foster Dulles, Kissinger and all the covert (hey not to mention the _overt_ ones we all seem to perhaps justifiably want to forget) insanity of the CIA/military industrial complex. In many or rather some of the most impactful ways, the nazis didn't really lose WWII, I mean my god the US _literally_ absorbed nazi leadership in Operation Paperclip and the ratlines into south america, of course utilized frequently in Operation Condor, such as (again, _literal nazi_ , also huge pedophile because...of course he is I guess lol...) Paul Schafer in Chile who cultivated an ideological/cultural space for Pinochet's ascension overthrowing democratically elected Allende. Hell, wasn't Prescott Bush involved in the "business plot" coup thing against FDR before Smedley Butler revealed to these freaks and the world he had an actual moral compass by *_*gasp_** _denying_ something such philosopher kings wanted him to do, so yeah unsurprisingly this grotesque nature definitely runs in _that_ particular family to say the least (obligatory shoutout to Russ Baker). But yes, indeed is the point lol, it's nuts honestly...I mean it is literally nuts that we still accept this kind of insanity collectively, like we forgot about anything beyond our individual narrow conscious awareness and reified this to our graves...like, we're destroying the planet and are conscious of this and yet insist on doing precisely nothing is _alone_ a testament to this. We've dug ourselves into an enormous societal hole here and upon noticing this are apparently deciding the "solution" is to dig more furiously than ever with a civilizational thanatos embrace. Pure ideology *_*sniff_** don't we love it folks? sorry no idea what compelled this screed lol.
@@Bisquick Brilliant historical overview of the rise of America's corporate world-wide war empire. America's cut throat corporate racist extremism and its financial origins goes all the way back to its vile banana and sugar slave plantations and the mercenary squads executing entire islands during rebellions. After the economic collapse of America's manufacturing sector, without a sensible social net, the jobless-induced poverty and addiction of millions of citizens opened the door to predatory NEO CHRISTO-FASCIST movements (all funded by CORPORATE GODS who are actively defunding government education and basic human rights as Devil worship). Any type of equality or democracy and all revolutionary words are either destroyed by media appropriation and become meaningless (leftists are called fascists by Maga!) or white-washed as 'dirty commies' like AOC (progressive politicians). America is so far right, they think food stamps for kids are the devils work. The USA is so deeply entrenched its elitist, extremist, slave mentality that Death-santis was congratulated for publicly executing 65,000 Floridians by banning simply covid mandates, (all while inspiring Rosa Parks book burnings and praising his 'man-made for profit prosperity gospel god' who demands women impregnated by rape die rather than access life saving abortion). Even elitist nerd Elon Musk of space x and tesla, decided it would be fun to play world dictator and threw cash into the American-organized, right-wing trucker attacks in Canada. ELITISM is so powerful in America's culture that rape, wife beating, and corporate fraud are ignored by voters who adore degenerate pigs as Presidential ROMAN GODS. The entire world lives in 2021 and watches in horror as America descends into the violent madness of the 1920's: white supremacists march openly in the streets, women are dying from illegal abortions, gays are murdered, southern states have third world enfant mortality rates, state wide power outages and rotting roads are common place, homelessness is epidemic and the 6 billion dollar for WHITE MEN profit prison system cages more black men than any other country in the frackin world! America 's north never won the civil war, they just married into it and enable white supremacy like obedient rich wives. To overcome slave mentality, we have to stop ignoring its origins: Women were the first slaves and until we are liberated, war and CORPORATE GOD MEN will obliterate our earth and threaten every one of children's future.
14:00 I definitely know what she's talking about, especially the first couple chapters. It felt a little like witnessing a brawl and the good guys were winning for once. Down right thrilling! I can't remember when I've read anything quite so riveting. It's worth adding, the authors do get it out of their systems and settle down, as they get into the heart of the book.
10:00 "For a very long time, the intellectual consensus has been that we can't really ask great questions; but increasingly, it is looking like we have no other choice"
I can't wait to read this book. It sounds like it will be an good companion to Jessica Riskin's brilliant book 'The Restless Clock' which documents the origins & development of the ideological struggles about ideas of what makes life alive, or agency in living things. It deals with the mechanistic view of reality - and the possibility of alternatives to that way of thinking. Excellent interview by Ms Dabiri. The invasion of the conversation & consequent LONG interruption of the guest by the two very very long-winded academics was really rude & thoughtless. I can't believe Çubukçu sat down & without even looking at anybody started reading a verbose paper, instead of putting her questions into actual conversation, actually relating to Mr Wengrow. I'm SO glad I didn't become a professor!!!
I know what you mean, but I think your take is harsh. I think she was clearly emotionally affected by the loss of her friend, David Graeber. She also had some great questions. In addition, she curtailed what she had prepared when asked to do so. Likewise, I think the second academic asked an important question. Emma said herself that she had gone over time. I think everyone did their best, but perhaps the issue was with the organisation of the event itself.
I selected this vid solely for its title which I found compelling. After reading the vid's blurb I was excited by the claimed content. After watching for a few minutes I was disappointed as the vid was geared to a highly selective audience, those 'in the know' (David acknowledged that his students were in attendance), as well as amateurishly presented. There was nothing in the intro to attract us, outsiders. David was a laconic Perry Como of archeology and the 'presenter' was, well, quite jejune. With my volume turned up all the way, I struggled until the 45-minute mark when another woman appeared on the stage. Within a few seconds, it was blazingly apparent that intellect was in our midst. She posed comments and questions that were crisp and to the point. Soon another woman, who was on the screen in the background was on air and her intellect was also apparent. They were basically ignored and we were then bored by David's (laconic) reading of a passage from his book! I do intend to read this book in spite of this rather insipid intro.
The 500 year period being discussed is extremely relevant as human civilization is now on the tail of it. Birth of European colonialism, revolutionary ideas of freedom and equality, rise of modern industrialism, the end of monarchies and its replacement with nation states. Our hyper-global, mass interdependent 24/7 civilization both reinforces the norms born from the last 500 years of history and begs the questions the book’s thesis shines it’s criticism on. The most important thing is not to agree on the past but to discover solutions to the problems it proses.
Except it's not just the past 500 years. Part of the trajectory of the past 500 years was influenced by concepts built over thousands of years- namely the influence of indigenous intellects on the enlightenment.
@@Katy-sh3ru No one seems to have looked at the role universities played in influencing these concepts, since Bologna in 1088! That makes it a 1000 years.
A very informative and inspiring discussion, thank you. When I think, what is the biggest obstacle to changing our unsustainable and unjust global economic system, factors like military and industrial arms races come to my mind; not lack of imagination. We are stuck in these destructive arms races.
What freedoms have we lost? The deeper I try to dive into what narrative David is trying to dispute, the more confused I get. 🤯 I feel like the values he is talking about are no longer in fashion. This talk would ring true about 50 years ago, but now??? Who is still under the impression that there was no civilization outside of monarchies?
Quite bluntly, the book will speak to those already converted, zealous in their struggle against elites. Analytically, Rousseau and Hobbes are hobby horses. It would have been far more interesting to have read and heard a deeper analysis based on archaeology in the last forty years, and drawing also on work in human behavior and biology, e.g. what Robert Sapolsky has discussed in the official Stanford playlist on TH-cam. History is not deterministic, but there are contingencies, human beings have reacted to and made the best of major environmental changes.
@@HariPrasad-uy9dj I think you've sort of missed the point there. They are precisely not trying to reduce their work to neurobiology (the 'representation problem renders this largely useless to an historical anthropology of political organisation) or much of the influential enlightenment political economy that still dominates both public and academic discussion. This has been dominated (and operationalised) by variants of one kind or another on either Hobbes or Rousseau (or Adam Smith) and the social contract.
This looks like an interesting talk, but I can barely hear it on my iPhone. I see other videos in the recommendations by other interviewers, so I’ll go there instead. Get your audio act together.
I have been looking into this person and his work and he does not do a good job of laying out his claim other than stating that our current idea of history is wrong. He is soft spoken and detailed but what he is talking about is beyond me.
I wish he'd explained how Graeber was able to put together the 800+ page Phd thesis from the 1950's that had been lost on a train by the anthropologist who had written it. But...I guess I should listen on and see if that is explained. (Patience, my son!) Find it odd that he uses the terms "Americans" and "Canadians" as if the latter aren't, in fact, Americans. How about just saying, for clarity's sake, "US citizens" and "Canadians", as both, in the wider sense, are Americans by definition.
The Purpose Of Life As with any philosophy: the moment a person sees a flaw in one aspect - the whole thing will, and should, collapse. For example, The Principle of Polarity says: anything that is polarised, such as black and white, are basically the same thing - colour. However, that does not mean black is white or white is black when we say they are both aspects of colour. Black is black and it always will be black. White is white and it always will be white. Of course ... it is possible to see both as grey but this (colour) is still black and white pixles / areas creating the illusion of grey. This goes for everything we perceive - including dreams - since light is light and darkness is darkness regardless of subjective identification. Thus, all philosophy is rendered worthless - because it makes perception malleable within the expression of delusion. Perception, without delusion, allows all of reality to function eternally. Therefore, the purpose of life (in this world) is to engender an eternal estate in preparation for the next world. This is to say, we are required to leave any delusional estate (sin) to embrace the perfected mindset (Christ). ...because the next world is eternal. This reality will ultimately pass away - along with those who embraced some delusional estate. Bless ❤️ The Name The Three Pillars lnkd.in/e8NKKpb
Alpha and Omega Adam and Eve were told they can partake of any tree except the one that has knowledge of good and evil - so we know two things: 1) They had consciousness prior to partaking the forbidden fruit - because they understood what they were told to avoid. 2) They were allowed to obtain knowledge - because the other trees did not bare fruit that contained the mixture of lies and truth. They were (basically) warned to avoid anything that causes delusion - so we know the creator genuinely cares for His creation. After Adam and Eve partook of the forbidden fruit: they realised they were naked - which means they became aware they have a defiant attitude toward the creator (with a sense of vulnerability that took effect) and, thus, felt shame. This caused consciousness, present in man, to become corrupt which then allowed him to exploit the opportunity to assert dominion over others he considers inferior. This is why God told Eve, "Your desire shall be to your husband and he shall 'rule' over you." She was, after all, the weaker vessel - so she would become subject to the misogynistic attitude of those lacking in understanding. Therefore, it is attitude that has been evolving or devolving through the ages: and consciousness, being a composite of attitude, has forged institutions that have galvanized class within hierarchical structure. This situation was exasperated by a class of angels called "the Watchers" who left their eternal estate to found early civilization and establish religions that exalt their own interests. These interests include the liberation of lust - where they exist as a demonic possession in those who embrace the assertion of authority over others. Their religions (including false Christianity) depend upon a faith in the mystery, rather than Yahshua, to draw the unsuspecting into the delusion of thinking hierarchy is a vital component of civilization. For this reason: secular society cannot function without religion: and, as you should have guessed by now, religion is not sanctioned by the creator - so we know civilization, past and present, bares no resemblance to the (prophesied) Kingdom of Heaven. Yahshua told us not to get angry with another nor lust upon another - because these (attitudes), being sin in the heart, are the manifestation of one's assertion of authority over others. ...and sin (delusion) is when a person seeks to justify wicked behaviour as righteous. Yahshua showed us the eternal estate is available to those who practice humility - which is to say: the body of flesh, we have, allows us to develop a faith that facilitates a return to perfection. The correct attitude will facilitate greater hermeneutic understanding: and this can adjust conscious awareness - but salvation comes to those who acknowledge the authority of Yahshua (in faith). He told us to love one another as He loved us - so the Father in Heaven can see He loves the Father. Bless 💖 the Name The Three Pillars lnkd.in/e8NKKpb
Depends on whether you are viewing or using a book as a practical tool or a venerated object. If I was a book I would take being underlined in pen or highlighter as proof I was fully appreciated rather than treated with patronising 'respect'.
@@karigrandii This guy plays the same -- "All the mainstream experts are wrong" card. Pinker, Diamond and others have "terribly outdated ideas about human prehistory,” he said in an interview.
Lots of meandering, sorta speech-making doesn't help communicate the basic ideas of the book. This would be better served as a panel symposium in a longer forum. Wish they'd just talked to the author with specific questions and replies.
Maybe I meant The Collapse of Globalism and the reinvention of the World Saul's 2005 book. What a loss David was thankfully former head of PEN International Saul is still with us.
I have no interests in knocking down past theories, I want to hear the new one. That you don't focus on your shows it is. probably flawed or weak in some ways. I hope for better when I read your book.
Non-hierarchal social organization has ALWAYS, EVENTUALLY, been dominated by hierarchal social organization. American Indians are a good example. None have endured.
Steven Plonker, apologies, Pinker appears to be pushing the view that we are evolving and has dismissed the work of people like Brian Ferguson to make his case. This evidence is likely to fit much better with Ferguson's thesis along with other anthropolgists.
19:57 Emma Dabiri > "So a central theme of The Work, is refuting this idea that: Civilization & Complexity always come at the price of Human Freedom --- could we talk a little about _That ? David Wengler > "umm _Yeah, _That's right =-= you've just summed up the Entire 📖 📚 Book !!!..."
Another fine example of the trap of western colonial discourse. "We have Indians to thank," says the white guy. Ok great, but so what? For me the answer is simple: Let more indigenous people lead and hold positions of power. The academics have to learn to cede/seed their power, so that the people in power really are different. We should delegate power and authority to people whose cultures may have a better track record than our own. Of course the problem there is that so many of these have been deeply harmed during the colonial period. So the academy needs also to learn what it might do to aid the healing of these societies so that they can perform and thrive and lead.
@@sbmcgonagle9671 I have read thst some indigenous societies were quite harsh on those displaying psychopathic traits. They were either exiled or killed.
Something I wish I could ask the authors: why did they leave out 'patrilocality' when speculating about male dominance and the subjugation of women/outsiders? Schteiner's theory is certainly novel, but isn't it a more compelling explanation the fact that women who travel to live with their male partner's community, and the isolation and powerlessness this produces, results in male dominance on all scales? Taking a magical 'equality pill' won't create lasting change unless we also change the material conditions that prevent domination in the future. This thought experiment was actually tried in Mao's China, with little impact on infant femicide rates. The WHATISPOLITICS channel levels this critique at the book, and it deserves a response.
I have yet to read the book, but I'm not sure what is meant by "taking a magic equality pill"? This is the second long interview I've heard with Wengrow, and it doesn't come across that the book has any kind of prescriptive or dogmatic stance or solution.
@@Katy-sh3ru I agree, it's not a prescriptive or explanatory project, but an imaginative one. I recommend reading the book of course; it's quite interesting as a 'what if' reflection on what civilisation means in different places and material contexts. But because the authors don't really make an empirical argument, or any testable hypotheses, about the determining factors of inequality, it tends to imply that merely thinking differently about the problem could suffice as a solution. In the context of Mao's China, the 'magical equality pill' was a thorough education program aimed at bringing women into the workforce and reducing female infanticide. While bigoted attitudes did shift temporarily, because the actual social arrangements that kept women subjugated stayed in place, parents still preferred male children and the demographic imbalance and resulting inequality didn't budge. Changing cultural attitudes is only one part of the solution - and we do desperately need solutions. By discounting the well understood root causes of inequality, such as patrilocality, we miss a big opportunity to find more caring and free ways to structure our societies. I strongly recommend reading the book alongside the 'What Is Politics?' series for a complementary viewpoint.
I haven't read the book, but from listening to this talk, I'm frustrated by thrust of this work which seems to set itself apart from a conflated set of ideas -- some true, some projected and imagined. The basic idea they are refuting is that prehistoric human society was less complex/hierarchical and more childlike/innocent. I believe the complexity was indeed less but the humanity was intact. So the authors have set up a target to shoot down that, to me, feels set up to tear down.
Please read the book before passing judgement based on your presently limited awareness of the evidence that they draw upon - much of which is relatively new to the general public, as he mentions in his conversation here.
That everything didn't happen simultaneously, that various trends and ideas co-existed does not obviate the fact of large civilizations, with different organizational structures, different operating principles. We are what we are: so were the ancient, great, city- oriented civilizations like Persia and Mesopotamia etc., although there were surely some hunter- gatherers among them as there are today ( we call them grifters, although some Iive legitimately gleaning off the land). And yes, ideas and attitudes change, and they do persist as well. So what new insights do Graeber and Wengrow offer?
If there is no evidence of non-dominant hierarchy prior to civilization ( egalitarian ) but there are cities that managed to avoid the transition to it, what we also have evidence of is that none of them survived contact with the dominant hierarchical states. This would suggest that the biological behavior demanded by existence itself is the primary driver, and being in control is an advantage in the goals demanded by the laws of nature. ( this hasn't changed because the primary mission statement hasn't changed. ) So the problem was. has been and is GOVERNMENT...and the understanding that it can not produce equal outcomes...and should not be involved in trying, especially at the federal level, or even the state level...as community problems must be solved at the community level. This is where the "hope" lies and it will not be realized, by tyrannical government or the level of "victimology" that are the two prevalent forces that are dominant at present.
search for graeber answering to "is capitalism part of the answer?" and then go and read the literature about the things you're talking about mr. "j galt" (wink wink)
@@voltcorp Sorry but Graeber only goes back 5000 years and the evidence is archaeological while what governs behavior is biological and a lot more fundamental so you are the one that needs to do the reading. Also, none of this conflicts with Graeber, and you would actually have to know what capitalism is...and Hudson is a more appropriate source, and motivated Graeber in the first place. Get back to me when you have something of substance or an actual argument.
@@Liliquan My expectation is that anyone claiming what had been written is a baseless assumption would have the evidence to demonstrate it. Of course when one is dealing with the "willfully ignorant, functionally illiterate"...such expectations are pointless.
@@jgalt308 Lol. The ridiculousness of someone expecting evidence against their claims when they have presented none in favor of them. I think that’s called hypocrisy.
I don't get for who the book is ??? If you read just a little bit of anthropology you know that there are other types of social organisation.. The book just shows the non-opening vision we have with other groups of people.
The point of the book is not about wherever other types of social organisation exist. Its to challenge very widespread conceptions that simplify history in the current academic and common knowledge spectrum. Conceptions born of lack of information, or politically driven interpretations of information or lack thereoff, as well as any kind of primitivism perceptions, the "dumb caveman" or "dumb savage", and to expose that the development of social structures and organitzations throu history wasnt a uniform line defined by levels of complexity. Finally, two of the major points exposed in the book is that "the humans of the past were, or could be, as behaviorally complex and socially aware, if not more, than we are today", and that the causes of the different organitzations humans have taken throu history were more than just necesity or efficency reasons, even if these were an influence. This all is to expose that our current more or less global organitzation isnt as much a "peak status" or, as the social evolution theory defends "the unavoidable result", but more of a state of stuckness derivated from different conditions that is, by no mean, natural to human nature, which is also a modern conception "that humans are this way, and nothing can be done". All in all the book is "desimplifiying" history using the current ( as of the book writting) known arqueological data, while also trying to explain how these simplifications arose, in order to topple them down. Yes, certainly you could conclude many of these things by yourself by being aware that nothing in this world is really simple or isolable, beyond the most basic laws of physics, and therefore conciously scrutinizing any concept that tries to apply a simple "tag" over any factor of reality, but sadly that requires a not very common disposition, that as singular humans is also not possible to hold constantly, and most people dont engage on constructive debate about the basis of the concepts engraved in common knowledge or "supposed objective knowledge" like history is to most people, nowadays; so i yeh i mean, the book is certainly interesting for lots of people, even if just to grant a glimpse of the complexity that lies beyond, and as a nice introduction to the basis of systems theory (that albeit technically unrelated to the book, both are in principle connected. Ofc the book is not perfect, dont think it is by any mean to be taken as a new bible or something, but it helps to give perspective over hardengraved concepts we all, as members of "modern society" hold.
I thought this was going to be interesting, from the title. But I'll say, without being immersed in the natural, biological world, as our ancient ancestors were, we are separated and cut off from a world view that defined their meaning of life. We're killing the life on this Earth. Wouldn't be as bad if there weren't so many of us. We are way past equilibrium.
18:45 Still not one fact or opinion on the matter in hand. 18:46 a discussion of Rousseau. Hardly evidence based update on the last 30 years of archaeology.
Load of hypothetical nonsense. Show us who else on the planet has a better system. All these people were educated within the system they propose to criticize. It’s childish and laughable.
my god what a load of honking cobblers you vomit out. it is not hypothetical nonsense. hypothetical nonsense is precisely what it knocks down. did you not listen to any of it? your atypical circular logic is what defines people like you. there can NEVER BE a better system or even any improvement when these horsepoop comments are made. yes, they were educated. but if you want to know WHY he came to archealogy watch the Novara Media interview. you will then realise, AGAIN, what cobblers you spout. many people DO NOT get the opportunity. that is the point. childish and laughable? yep, that just about sums up the mental ability you possess: lack of ability to process data, lack of ability to formalise logical inference, lack of interest in arguments that you do not understand and are not willing to.
So, where do the indigenous cultures of Europe fit into this conversation? - or is this just more of the usual skin tone neurosis being projected, if a little more intellectually, on those with European ancestry by those who really wish to wield power in the world order to come...who are not in any way to be associated with colonialism at all, in any way whatsoever, not even a little bit, when they build back better a world for our common benefit so that we can own nothing and be happy.
![เบิ้ล ปทุมราช - สาวสอง ( มีมี่ของอ้าย ) ft. ตาต้า,ต้องเต [OFFICIAL MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/mqlMjnP08XI/mqdefault.jpg)
The conclusion that the indigenous critique of European societies which created the modern discussion and most of the tools to think about the origins of inequality, was itself the result of millenia of conscious political struggle passed down through oral histories, myths and stories, and very intentional structuring of societies, near infinite trial and error, is perhaps the most inspiring political theory I've come across.
But it's impossible to prove
@@turnipsociety706 go read about it and see if you're convinced.
Being a "legal" immigrant to the United States, the "freedom to move" is one topic that I feel we have taken away from so many refugees around the world. As Dr. Wengrow mentioned at the end of this event, we should continue many of the debates to give us more chances of building better future societies.
Yes, brilliant idea! I can think of quite a few people who would like to migrate to Samoa and enjoy the island life. I'll bet the whole freedom to move debate gets a lot more problematic and legalistic if they do, don't you think?
And I'll bet you a ticket to any "indigenous nation" that this whole business of conflating "legal migration" with notions of being a refugee becomes a lot fussier and more diverted into silly concerns with one another's skin colour when it does.
@@amywas1 Yup. Looking at the world through utopian colored glasses means you have to sweep all the messy bits under the rug
I am wading into this area of thought after having immersed myself into prevailing theories of deterministic subjugation. The notion that there are other ways of organizing civilization is exhilarating. It is sad that many of those other ways have been lost to conventional anthropological thought and booted out of the literature. These seminal conversations on this magnificent new opus of "Everything" have given me more to think about, and perhaps hope, than the past several years of political upheaval and autocracy spreading throughout the United States and around the world.
Well said, it is invigorating, gives me hope as well.
Like the Cooperative community of Mondragon
If you’re looking for more examples, the libertarian revolution in Catalonia/Spain during the Spanish Civil War in 1936, the EZLN/Zapatistas of Mexico, the Free Territories of Ukraine, the Paris Commune, and the Autonomous Administration of Northeastern Syria aka Rojava provide really great examples of how we can organize in the present day.
Good luck with it all!
@@barbarajohnson1442 Nice to hear someone allude to Mondragon. Hopium springs eternal. 🤣
'spreading throughout the United States and around the world.''ø' around the world and throghout 5% north 'muricat too
35:56 - This is fascinating ... Wengrow is talking about a famous intellectual Native American who went to Paris and was shocked at how the Europeans would treat their own people, allowing them to fall into poverty and destitution. It is so bizarre that today's white supremacists talk about how superior white culture, don't wanna lose the European culture, and how great it is, are pretty much the first ones to ignore their own people in favor of anything that boosts their own wealth or power.
imo these days not just supremacists are in it for themselves... its a dog eat dog world and the meats all the same>>>that the truth given from me
Well the dialogue appears in a book by Lahontan in 1699. But the character Adario is inspired by Kondiaronk, it is not Kondiaronk. Check the sources!!!
The book is a masterpiece and as the presenter says has many lol moments. But overall the humanity of it is inspiring. Change is coming people and we need to shape it as this book shows we can ✊
Changes never is swift and it will take more than a generation or two of "neo-cientists" to be spread around. Never forget the amazing power of the Old way of thinking and the political ramifications of the change in their mindset. Unfortunately...
no one leaves when the new one is inside you. Valencia, Spain appreciates no one leaves when the new one is inside you. Valencia, Spain appreciates you ❤️
The volume is too low...
Around the 30 minute mark, the conversation is about the French and the Native Americans.
If you want to read an in-depth history of the French regime (along with English and Dutch) in North America:
The White and The Gold, by Thomas Costain ~1500-1700
Century of Conflict, by Joseph Lister Rutledge ~ 1688-1759
Even as a child in the 50s I didn't believe that N America was populated only when the Siberian/Alaskan link became passable. I've often contended that people walked along shorelines and some tribes sailed. I also think much of our human history is under seas and ice. Of course degreed scientists mocked my ideas. For more than 50 year I've waited for scientists to open up to my coastal-migration thinking and I'm so relieved that these folks have done excellent work in this type of examination.
Also, check out the Younger Dryas Impact Hypothesis.
@@mkor7 spot on! I believe also that civilization as we know it began in the Americas. Certainly earlier than Sumer or the area of the fertile crescent. When genetic testing will be more refined will have an amount of data to transform the actual "version of evolution" so incredibly vague and confusing.
I took a first year course on early North American man.
I never bought into the Profs theory.
@@mkor7 Sounds like Graham Hancock tripe
@@Joaocruz30 "civilization"!?!? You mean what we have now?
I am a simple, uneducated human being and I have thought we should be doing things better since I was able to conceptualize self and society. For the longest time I thought there was something wrong with ME, that I didn't fit society; I have since determined society is sick and is following or being directed by the wrong motivation and devolving influences.
You are not wrong.. my friend. Society IS sick. Basic needs of the individual straining against a globalized, social experiment gone wrong, in which we continue to worsen by insanely trying the same solution, over and over again, and hoping for different results; for example, always tinkering with economic cycles of our wasteful, unsustainable consumeristic based financial structure, hoping itll keep improving 'this time', before worsening and resetting itself... I'm not sure where Im even going with this but youre not wrong... You just notice how most of us have heads, in fact, our entire bodies, buried in the sand.
Radical democracy at a grassroots level combined with gender equality and minority inclusion is currently practiced in Rojava, Northern Syria.
@Vahan Bournazian: That sounds intriguing. If you have any references, I would love to read about this.
@@moniqueburchell1488 likewise
I think Graeber looked at, wrote about, advocated for, and visited Rojava.
Biji Rojava!
I saw a great short film on Rojava by the 'Accidental Anarchist'. It's here on TH-cam.
Delightful conversation. I can't wait for the bookstore to, again, be a safe place to get too much coffee and read. Sounds like an incredible book that's very much needed.
Please boost the audio and re-upload. This version does not do the material justice.
Please fix the audio in your future webcasts. I can barely hear anything with the volume maxed.
I listened to the audiobook, and I enjoyed it so much I'm listening to it a second time, albeit maybe not quickly the second time.
Can you boost the audio? Such a pity a lot of people will be unable to hear this.
It was supposed to be a trilogy. What a pity.
These are the kind of ideas I expect from Universities but have not to date experienced.
The others are scholars from universities. So you have just experienced it
I know this is a library channel, but you don't have to make the audio this quiet...
Come on, can't you tell how this is way too quiet?
Shh!
Don’t upset the snowflakery. 💋
10/10 comment, would mindless scroll past, chuckle lightly as induced by consensus of agree/"getting" paired cultural reference, and continue to mindlessly scroll indefinitely again!
these got dang liberal LIEbraries fillin' er kids' heads up with got danged "NEW-ance" and CON-text and whathaveyou, we need some TRUTHbraries I'll tell y'all what, we'll _make em_ set the record on freedom straight, murica shines like a beacon of light/city on hill/[insert preferred nebulous archetype of "goodness" here] for aspiring bourgeois global dictators/dictatorships everywhere dammit, y'all can't take that away!
idk why i wrote last part, I think it was inspired by the snowflakery comment, sorry.
😶
@@paulwhetstone0473Ah!, I already know everything so am going to be totally close-minded to any different point of view.
The audio is too weak even with headphones. I will try watching the program on my TV with a sound amplifier. I am sure this will be extremely interesting if I can actually hear it. Probably nothing exceeds the brutality and killings by modern , so called civilized humans as seen in various wars in the 20th and 21st century. As weapons become smart mass killing instruments , killing can take place over the horizon. Emotion plays no role. The trend is towards more efficient destruction of lives and assets.
Unfortunately that characteristic of more efficient military offense is as old as the Rosetta Stone.
This Egyptian scholar’s contribution, joining by zoom, is not as impressive as the author or other lady. BTW, I totally agree with you that the sound level is annoyingly too low.
Read the Davids' book to understand that we are actually stuck in a very specific form of society and then read Jack Forbes' "Columbus and Other Cannibals" to understand just how pathological it is.
Totally, the continuity is staggering when it's actually merely noticed when something like the Davids' book reveals such an ideological lacuna, at the risk of ranting forever at the request of no one, some "highlights" coming to mind to start the "new" year (lol...): the Sioux treaty in the Black Hills immediately reneged after gold discovered there (shocker) while Mount Rushmore constructed as a literal façade over such history as a monument to the "great" -primitive accumulators- leaders of our past; explicitly lifting the structural implementation of the "balance of powers" thing from the Iroquois's Great Law of Peace, still "savages" though apparently, of course, how conveniently it justifies our "manifest destiny" aka obvious genocide, the social pressure valve of moving westward to alleviate capital's dictatorship over the working class. Really, going back to the federalist papers and the -counterrevolution- "founding", these guys all _always_ agreed on one thing despite our uncoincidentally cultivated ubiquitous and dogmatically accepted mythology regarding "democracy": that such common people should _never_ actually have any direct input as their lack of property ownership and thus lack of already existing social dominion over black, poor, and indigenous people was indicative of their lack of "virtue" or "merit", following along the same lines as Plato's five regimes where democracy is the stage of government directly before tyranny and the optimates of Rome before them, crushing the populares from the Gracchi bros and later Caesar by of course famously just straight up murdering them in the senate, our own senate an explicit homage to their government structure of imperial domination (gee, what happened to them...lol?...). Colonialism by all definitions is the father to a genocide (shoutout to the band Protest the Hero, revealing this historical context overwritten by the victors is basically the entire concept their latest album Palimpsest; disclaimer: is unnecessarily complicated prog metal lol).
But of course such "ressentiment" fueled hubris is never satisfied, even with everything, more recent atrocities rarely if ever discussed despite being insane, Allen/John Foster Dulles, Kissinger and all the covert (hey not to mention the _overt_ ones we all seem to perhaps justifiably want to forget) insanity of the CIA/military industrial complex. In many or rather some of the most impactful ways, the nazis didn't really lose WWII, I mean my god the US _literally_ absorbed nazi leadership in Operation Paperclip and the ratlines into south america, of course utilized frequently in Operation Condor, such as (again, _literal nazi_ , also huge pedophile because...of course he is I guess lol...) Paul Schafer in Chile who cultivated an ideological/cultural space for Pinochet's ascension overthrowing democratically elected Allende. Hell, wasn't Prescott Bush involved in the "business plot" coup thing against FDR before Smedley Butler revealed to these freaks and the world he had an actual moral compass by *_*gasp_** _denying_ something such philosopher kings wanted him to do, so yeah unsurprisingly this grotesque nature definitely runs in _that_ particular family to say the least (obligatory shoutout to Russ Baker).
But yes, indeed is the point lol, it's nuts honestly...I mean it is literally nuts that we still accept this kind of insanity collectively, like we forgot about anything beyond our individual narrow conscious awareness and reified this to our graves...like, we're destroying the planet and are conscious of this and yet insist on doing precisely nothing is _alone_ a testament to this. We've dug ourselves into an enormous societal hole here and upon noticing this are apparently deciding the "solution" is to dig more furiously than ever with a civilizational thanatos embrace. Pure ideology *_*sniff_** don't we love it folks? sorry no idea what compelled this screed lol.
@@Bisquick Brilliant historical overview of the rise of America's corporate world-wide war empire. America's cut throat corporate racist extremism and its financial origins goes all the way back to its vile banana and sugar slave plantations and the mercenary squads executing entire islands during rebellions. After the economic collapse of America's manufacturing sector, without a sensible social net, the jobless-induced poverty and addiction of millions of citizens opened the door to predatory NEO CHRISTO-FASCIST movements (all funded by CORPORATE GODS who are actively defunding government education and basic human rights as Devil worship). Any type of equality or democracy and all revolutionary words are either destroyed by media appropriation and become meaningless (leftists are called fascists by Maga!) or white-washed as 'dirty commies' like AOC (progressive politicians). America is so far right, they think food stamps for kids are the devils work.
The USA is so deeply entrenched its elitist, extremist, slave mentality that Death-santis was congratulated for publicly executing 65,000 Floridians by banning simply covid mandates, (all while inspiring Rosa Parks book burnings and praising his 'man-made for profit prosperity gospel god' who demands women impregnated by rape die rather than access life saving abortion). Even elitist nerd Elon Musk of space x and tesla, decided it would be fun to play world dictator and threw cash into the American-organized, right-wing trucker attacks in Canada.
ELITISM is so powerful in America's culture that rape, wife beating, and corporate fraud are ignored by voters who adore degenerate pigs as Presidential ROMAN GODS. The entire world lives in 2021 and watches in horror as America descends into the violent madness of the 1920's: white supremacists march openly in the streets, women are dying from illegal abortions, gays are murdered, southern states have third world enfant mortality rates, state wide power outages and rotting roads are common place, homelessness is epidemic and the 6 billion dollar for WHITE MEN profit prison system cages more black men than any other country in the frackin world! America 's north never won the civil war, they just married into it and enable white supremacy like obedient rich wives. To overcome slave mentality, we have to stop ignoring its origins: Women were the first slaves and until we are liberated, war and CORPORATE GOD MEN will obliterate our earth and threaten every one of children's future.
@@Bisquick wow, I loved it
@@Bisquick awesome rant 🌟
14:00 I definitely know what she's talking about, especially the first couple chapters. It felt a little like witnessing a brawl and the good guys were winning for once. Down right thrilling! I can't remember when I've read anything quite so riveting. It's worth adding, the authors do get it out of their systems and settle down, as they get into the heart of the book.
he was going to write a sequel? wow, what a loss. RIP David Graeber, you are a hero.
10:00 "For a very long time, the intellectual consensus has been that we can't really ask great questions; but increasingly, it is looking like we have no other choice"
Sound is BARELY audible, bummer!
audio levels too low, with everything turned up all the way, I can barely hear.
I miss David Graeber.
Thank you for this much needed conversation for our age.
I can't wait to read this book. It sounds like it will be an good companion to Jessica Riskin's brilliant book 'The Restless Clock' which documents the origins & development of the ideological struggles about ideas of what makes life alive, or agency in living things. It deals with the mechanistic view of reality - and the possibility of alternatives to that way of thinking.
Excellent interview by Ms Dabiri. The invasion of the conversation & consequent LONG interruption of the guest by the two very very long-winded academics was really rude & thoughtless. I can't believe Çubukçu sat down & without even looking at anybody started reading a verbose paper, instead of putting her questions into actual conversation, actually relating to Mr Wengrow. I'm SO glad I didn't become a professor!!!
I know what you mean, but I think your take is harsh. I think she was clearly emotionally affected by the loss of her friend, David Graeber. She also had some great questions. In addition, she curtailed what she had prepared when asked to do so. Likewise, I think the second academic asked an important question. Emma said herself that she had gone over time. I think everyone did their best, but perhaps the issue was with the organisation of the event itself.
I selected this vid solely for its title which I found compelling. After reading the vid's blurb I was excited by the claimed content. After watching for a few minutes I was disappointed as the vid was geared to a highly selective audience, those 'in the know' (David acknowledged that his students were in attendance), as well as amateurishly presented. There was nothing in the intro to attract us, outsiders. David was a laconic Perry Como of archeology and the 'presenter' was, well, quite jejune. With my volume turned up all the way, I struggled until the 45-minute mark when another woman appeared on the stage. Within a few seconds, it was blazingly apparent that intellect was in our midst. She posed comments and questions that were crisp and to the point. Soon another woman, who was on the screen in the background was on air and her intellect was also apparent. They were basically ignored and we were then bored by David's (laconic) reading of a passage from his book! I do intend to read this book in spite of this rather insipid intro.
The 500 year period being discussed is extremely relevant as human civilization is now on the tail of it. Birth of European colonialism, revolutionary ideas of freedom and equality, rise of modern industrialism, the end of monarchies and its replacement with nation states. Our hyper-global, mass interdependent 24/7 civilization both reinforces the norms born from the last 500 years of history and begs the questions the book’s thesis shines it’s criticism on. The most important thing is not to agree on the past but to discover solutions to the problems it proses.
Except it's not just the past 500 years. Part of the trajectory of the past 500 years was influenced by concepts built over thousands of years- namely the influence of indigenous intellects on the enlightenment.
I agree, Nathaniel. Your last sentence is profound.
@@OneWorldSinger Which the book gives no clues at all :(
@@Katy-sh3ru No one seems to have looked at the role universities played in influencing these concepts, since Bologna in 1088! That makes it a 1000 years.
A very informative and inspiring discussion, thank you. When I think, what is the biggest obstacle to changing our unsustainable and unjust global economic system, factors like military and industrial arms races come to my mind; not lack of imagination. We are stuck in these destructive arms races.
I would recommend Kim Stanley Robinson's Shaman as it dramatises one of the neolithic extended communities really well.
Astonishing and deeply appreciated
What a shame the audio is so poor. Poor camera work also
Mary Wollstonecraft grills Rousseau brilliantly...
Late David Graeber did grab the truth. RIP Comrade.
Loved the book, and I hope there are more!! It is thought provoking and incredibly interesting!
For low audio use the subtitle option on U-tube.
Sadly, there are a lot of errors in the captioning of this event. It would be nice if the channel allowed people to submit better captions.
What freedoms have we lost? The deeper I try to dive into what narrative David is trying to dispute, the more confused I get. 🤯 I feel like the values he is talking about are no longer in fashion. This talk would ring true about 50 years ago, but now??? Who is still under the impression that there was no civilization outside of monarchies?
Can't hear it.
Necesity is the mother of invention and invention requires freedom of thought. Incidentally “war captives” is a euphemysm for “slaves”.
Hello, my friend from Indonesia is here to give your support, keep your spirit healthy, always there #pramonombetik
i wanted to watch this but listening is impossible. please fix and upload again. or dont.
Outstanding! Good to know of these talks.
Quite bluntly, the book will speak to those already converted, zealous in their struggle against elites. Analytically, Rousseau and Hobbes are hobby horses. It would have been far more interesting to have read and heard a deeper analysis based on archaeology in the last forty years, and drawing also on work in human behavior and biology, e.g. what Robert Sapolsky has discussed in the official Stanford playlist on TH-cam. History is not deterministic, but there are contingencies, human beings have reacted to and made the best of major environmental changes.
Have you read it?
@@jonathanbailey1597 Yes. Each to his own.
@@HariPrasad-uy9dj I think you've sort of missed the point there. They are precisely not trying to reduce their work to neurobiology (the 'representation problem renders this largely useless to an historical anthropology of political organisation) or much of the influential enlightenment political economy that still dominates both public and academic discussion. This has been dominated (and operationalised) by variants of one kind or another on either Hobbes or Rousseau (or Adam Smith) and the social contract.
Thanks for your comment. Glad you like the book.
From an evolutionary POV, the solution is simple: just turn homo sapiens into haplodiploids. Lol💋
the audio guy needs to go join a monastery.
This looks like an interesting talk, but I can barely hear it on my iPhone. I see other videos in the recommendations by other interviewers, so I’ll go there instead. Get your audio act together.
I was fully engaged until the back screen guest rudely disrupted this debate.
WHAT IS POLITICS? does a good summary of the issues with his book, of which there are many.
Interesting talk. I think the moderation could have been a bit more disciplined to aid the speaker.
Can't hear you. Louder!
Pump up the volume! Please.
I have been looking into this person and his work and he does not do a good job of laying out his claim other than stating that our current idea of history is wrong. He is soft spoken and detailed but what he is talking about is beyond me.
turn up the volume, turn up the volume and, oh, btw, turn up the volume.
I wish he'd explained how Graeber was able to put together the 800+ page Phd thesis from the 1950's that had been lost on a train by the anthropologist who had written it. But...I guess I should listen on and see if that is explained. (Patience, my son!)
Find it odd that he uses the terms "Americans" and "Canadians" as if the latter aren't, in fact, Americans. How about just saying, for clarity's sake, "US citizens" and "Canadians", as both, in the wider sense, are Americans by definition.
Audio too low.
The Purpose Of Life
As with any philosophy: the moment a person sees a flaw in one aspect - the whole thing will, and should, collapse.
For example, The Principle of Polarity says: anything that is polarised, such as black and white, are basically the same thing - colour.
However, that does not mean black is white or white is black when we say they are both aspects of colour.
Black is black and it always will be black.
White is white and it always will be white.
Of course ... it is possible to see both as grey but this (colour) is still black and white pixles / areas creating the illusion of grey.
This goes for everything we perceive - including dreams - since light is light and darkness is darkness regardless of subjective identification.
Thus, all philosophy is rendered worthless - because it makes perception malleable within the expression of delusion.
Perception, without delusion, allows all of reality to function eternally.
Therefore, the purpose of life (in this world) is to engender an eternal estate in preparation for the next world.
This is to say, we are required to leave any delusional estate (sin) to embrace the perfected mindset (Christ).
...because the next world is eternal.
This reality will ultimately pass away - along with those who embraced some delusional estate.
Bless ❤️ The Name
The Three Pillars
lnkd.in/e8NKKpb
Alpha and Omega
Adam and Eve were told they can partake of any tree except the one that has knowledge of good and evil - so we know two things:
1) They had consciousness prior to partaking the forbidden fruit - because they understood what they were told to avoid.
2) They were allowed to obtain knowledge - because the other trees did not bare fruit that contained the mixture of lies and truth.
They were (basically) warned to avoid anything that causes delusion - so we know the creator genuinely cares for His creation.
After Adam and Eve partook of the forbidden fruit: they realised they were naked - which means they became aware they have a defiant attitude toward the creator (with a sense of vulnerability that took effect) and, thus, felt shame.
This caused consciousness, present in man, to become corrupt which then allowed him to exploit the opportunity to assert dominion over others he considers inferior.
This is why God told Eve, "Your desire shall be to your husband and he shall 'rule' over you."
She was, after all, the weaker vessel - so she would become subject to the misogynistic attitude of those lacking in understanding.
Therefore, it is attitude that has been evolving or devolving through the ages: and consciousness, being a composite of attitude, has forged institutions that have galvanized class within hierarchical structure.
This situation was exasperated by a class of angels called "the Watchers" who left their eternal estate to found early civilization and establish religions that exalt their own interests.
These interests include the liberation of lust - where they exist as a demonic possession in those who embrace the assertion of authority over others.
Their religions (including false Christianity) depend upon a faith in the mystery, rather than Yahshua, to draw the unsuspecting into the delusion of thinking hierarchy is a vital component of civilization.
For this reason: secular society cannot function without religion: and, as you should have guessed by now, religion is not sanctioned by the creator - so we know civilization, past and present, bares no resemblance to the (prophesied) Kingdom of Heaven.
Yahshua told us not to get angry with another nor lust upon another - because these (attitudes), being sin in the heart, are the manifestation of one's assertion of authority over others.
...and sin (delusion) is when a person seeks to justify wicked behaviour as righteous.
Yahshua showed us the eternal estate is available to those who practice humility - which is to say: the body of flesh, we have, allows us to develop a faith that facilitates a return to perfection.
The correct attitude will facilitate greater hermeneutic understanding: and this can adjust conscious awareness - but salvation comes to those who acknowledge the authority of Yahshua (in faith).
He told us to love one another as He loved us - so the Father in Heaven can see He loves the Father.
Bless 💖 the Name
The Three Pillars
lnkd.in/e8NKKpb
yeah good stuff there
Superb discussion 😊
Fabulous questions!!! and yes, Emma, I agree, only use pencil in underlining in books!! Aaargh, also my #1 pet peeve
Depends on whether you are viewing or using a book as a practical tool or a venerated object.
If I was a book I would take being underlined in pen or highlighter as proof I was fully appreciated rather than treated with patronising 'respect'.
Great talk! Timestamps would make this *upload even greater.
This is so interesting. The thing is tho, it really fails to grapple with Graham Hancock's important work. Don't you think?
Indeed. Also, check out the Younger Dryas Impact Hypothesis.
Is this a joke because Hancock is a pseudescientist not an archeologist.
@@karigrandii This guy plays the same -- "All the mainstream experts are wrong" card. Pinker, Diamond and others have "terribly outdated ideas about human prehistory,” he said in an interview.
Lots of meandering, sorta speech-making doesn't help communicate the basic ideas of the book. This would be better served as a panel symposium in a longer forum. Wish they'd just talked to the author with specific questions and replies.
I just discovered this but it sure sounds like John Ralston Saul's The Comeback.
Maybe I meant The Collapse of Globalism and the reinvention of the World Saul's 2005 book. What a loss David was thankfully former head of PEN International Saul is still with us.
RIP David Graeber
Pinker is king!
Sound level too low, can't hear.
Amazing book!
And fix the audio!
Bad audio
Wow
I have no interests in knocking down past theories, I want to hear the new one. That you don't focus on your shows it is. probably flawed or weak in some ways. I hope for better when I read your book.
Non-hierarchal social organization has ALWAYS, EVENTUALLY, been dominated by hierarchal social organization. American Indians are a good example. None have endured.
Steven Plonker, apologies, Pinker appears to be pushing the view that we are evolving and has dismissed the work of people like Brian Ferguson to make his case. This evidence is likely to fit much better with Ferguson's thesis along with other anthropolgists.
Pinker to me represents the establishment political agenda and he is not an objective, independent social scientist as far as
19:57 Emma Dabiri > "So a central theme of The Work, is refuting this idea that: Civilization & Complexity always come at the price of Human Freedom --- could we talk a little about _That ?
David Wengler > "umm _Yeah, _That's right =-= you've just summed up the Entire 📖 📚 Book !!!..."
I like this smart chick, Ayca Cubukcu. She really knows how to ask trenchant questions to the author.💋💋💋💋💋
Another fine example of the trap of western colonial discourse. "We have Indians to thank," says the white guy. Ok great, but so what? For me the answer is simple: Let more indigenous people lead and hold positions of power. The academics have to learn to cede/seed their power, so that the people in power really are different. We should delegate power and authority to people whose cultures may have a better track record than our own. Of course the problem there is that so many of these have been deeply harmed during the colonial period. So the academy needs also to learn what it might do to aid the healing of these societies so that they can perform and thrive and lead.
This would need to be a global movement, so that the indigenously led societies are not destroyed again.
@@patriciaedwards2833 we would never want to get bogged down with details…
@@sbmcgonagle9671 I have read thst some indigenous societies were quite harsh on those displaying psychopathic traits. They were either exiled or killed.
Volume too low
Something I wish I could ask the authors: why did they leave out 'patrilocality' when speculating about male dominance and the subjugation of women/outsiders? Schteiner's theory is certainly novel, but isn't it a more compelling explanation the fact that women who travel to live with their male partner's community, and the isolation and powerlessness this produces, results in male dominance on all scales? Taking a magical 'equality pill' won't create lasting change unless we also change the material conditions that prevent domination in the future. This thought experiment was actually tried in Mao's China, with little impact on infant femicide rates. The WHATISPOLITICS channel levels this critique at the book, and it deserves a response.
I have yet to read the book, but I'm not sure what is meant by "taking a magic equality pill"? This is the second long interview I've heard with Wengrow, and it doesn't come across that the book has any kind of prescriptive or dogmatic stance or solution.
@@Katy-sh3ru I agree, it's not a prescriptive or explanatory project, but an imaginative one. I recommend reading the book of course; it's quite interesting as a 'what if' reflection on what civilisation means in different places and material contexts. But because the authors don't really make an empirical argument, or any testable hypotheses, about the determining factors of inequality, it tends to imply that merely thinking differently about the problem could suffice as a solution. In the context of Mao's China, the 'magical equality pill' was a thorough education program aimed at bringing women into the workforce and reducing female infanticide. While bigoted attitudes did shift temporarily, because the actual social arrangements that kept women subjugated stayed in place, parents still preferred male children and the demographic imbalance and resulting inequality didn't budge. Changing cultural attitudes is only one part of the solution - and we do desperately need solutions. By discounting the well understood root causes of inequality, such as patrilocality, we miss a big opportunity to find more caring and free ways to structure our societies. I strongly recommend reading the book alongside the 'What Is Politics?' series for a complementary viewpoint.
I haven't read the book, but from listening to this talk, I'm frustrated by thrust of this work which seems to set itself apart from a conflated set of ideas -- some true, some projected and imagined. The basic idea they are refuting is that prehistoric human society was less complex/hierarchical and more childlike/innocent. I believe the complexity was indeed less but the humanity was intact. So the authors have set up a target to shoot down that, to me, feels set up to tear down.
Please read the book before passing judgement based on your presently limited awareness of the evidence that they draw upon - much of which is relatively new to the general public, as he mentions in his conversation here.
Chap
... I know indians. Inequality is the norm in any type of society in any Era and with any social size...
Brasil
That everything didn't happen simultaneously, that various trends and ideas co-existed does not obviate the fact of large civilizations, with different organizational structures, different operating principles. We are what we are: so were the ancient, great, city- oriented civilizations like Persia and Mesopotamia etc., although there were surely some hunter- gatherers among them as there are today ( we call them grifters, although some Iive legitimately gleaning off the land). And yes, ideas and attitudes change, and they do persist as well. So what new insights do Graeber and Wengrow offer?
I cant hear anything
yeah read'n dat book now yeah
If there is no evidence of non-dominant hierarchy prior to civilization ( egalitarian ) but there
are cities that managed to avoid the transition to it, what we also have evidence of is
that none of them survived contact with the dominant hierarchical states.
This would suggest that the biological behavior demanded by existence itself is the primary
driver, and being in control is an advantage in the goals demanded by the laws of nature.
( this hasn't changed because the primary mission statement hasn't changed. )
So the problem was. has been and is GOVERNMENT...and the understanding that it
can not produce equal outcomes...and should not be involved in trying, especially at
the federal level, or even the state level...as community problems must be solved at the community
level. This is where the "hope" lies and it will not be realized, by tyrannical government or
the level of "victimology" that are the two prevalent forces that are dominant at present.
search for graeber answering to "is capitalism part of the answer?" and then go and read the literature about the things you're talking about mr. "j galt" (wink wink)
@@voltcorp Sorry but Graeber only goes back 5000 years and the evidence is
archaeological while what governs behavior is biological and a lot more fundamental
so you are the one that needs to do the reading. Also, none of this conflicts with Graeber,
and you would actually have to know what capitalism is...and Hudson is a more
appropriate source, and motivated Graeber in the first place. Get back to me when
you have something of substance or an actual argument.
@@jgalt308 How bout using evidence to back up your claims instead expecting others to refute your baseless assumptions.
@@Liliquan My expectation is that anyone claiming
what had been written is a baseless assumption would have the evidence to demonstrate it.
Of course when one is dealing with the "willfully ignorant, functionally illiterate"...such expectations are pointless.
@@jgalt308 Lol. The ridiculousness of someone expecting evidence against their claims when they have presented none in favor of them. I think that’s called hypocrisy.
I don't get for who the book is ??? If you read just a little bit of anthropology you know that there are other types of social organisation..
The book just shows the non-opening vision we have with other groups of people.
The point of the book is not about wherever other types of social organisation exist. Its to challenge very widespread conceptions that simplify history in the current academic and common knowledge spectrum. Conceptions born of lack of information, or politically driven interpretations of information or lack thereoff, as well as any kind of primitivism perceptions, the "dumb caveman" or "dumb savage", and to expose that the development of social structures and organitzations throu history wasnt a uniform line defined by levels of complexity.
Finally, two of the major points exposed in the book is that "the humans of the past were, or could be, as behaviorally complex and socially aware, if not more, than we are today", and that the causes of the different organitzations humans have taken throu history were more than just necesity or efficency reasons, even if these were an influence.
This all is to expose that our current more or less global organitzation isnt as much a "peak status" or, as the social evolution theory defends "the unavoidable result", but more of a state of stuckness derivated from different conditions that is, by no mean, natural to human nature, which is also a modern conception "that humans are this way, and nothing can be done".
All in all the book is "desimplifiying" history using the current ( as of the book writting) known arqueological data, while also trying to explain how these simplifications arose, in order to topple them down.
Yes, certainly you could conclude many of these things by yourself by being aware that nothing in this world is really simple or isolable, beyond the most basic laws of physics, and therefore conciously scrutinizing any concept that tries to apply a simple "tag" over any factor of reality, but sadly that requires a not very common disposition, that as singular humans is also not possible to hold constantly, and most people dont engage on constructive debate about the basis of the concepts engraved in common knowledge or "supposed objective knowledge" like history is to most people, nowadays; so i yeh i mean, the book is certainly interesting for lots of people, even if just to grant a glimpse of the complexity that lies beyond, and as a nice introduction to the basis of systems theory (that albeit technically unrelated to the book, both are in principle connected.
Ofc the book is not perfect, dont think it is by any mean to be taken as a new bible or something, but it helps to give perspective over hardengraved concepts we all, as members of "modern society" hold.
FOR A PROFESSIONAL PRODUCTION THE SOUND IS TERRIBLE ON THIS VIDEO...COULD THEY NOT GET IT RIGHT??
I thought this was going to be interesting, from the title.
But I'll say, without being immersed in the natural, biological world, as our ancient ancestors were, we are separated and cut off from a world view that defined their meaning of life.
We're killing the life on this Earth. Wouldn't be as bad if there weren't so many of us. We are way past equilibrium.
A new' history for humanity?
It would help if we all knew our 'true past' history first.
Oh yeah, we don't because its been occulted from humanity!
18:45 Still not one fact or opinion on the matter in hand. 18:46 a discussion of Rousseau. Hardly evidence based update on the last 30 years of archaeology.
Perhaps you should actually read the book.
read the book and cope
34:00 what egaliterian actually means
😊
Iporá Goiás
What everything? I work day by day
Load of hypothetical nonsense. Show us who else on the planet has a better system. All these people were educated within the system they propose to criticize. It’s childish and laughable.
show us? just read the book
@@jeroenbakker52 Indeed! lol
my god what a load of honking cobblers you vomit out. it is not hypothetical nonsense. hypothetical nonsense is precisely what it knocks down. did you not listen to any of it? your atypical circular logic is what defines people like you. there can NEVER BE a better system or even any improvement when these horsepoop comments are made. yes, they were educated. but if you want to know WHY he came to archealogy watch the Novara Media interview. you will then realise, AGAIN, what cobblers you spout. many people DO NOT get the opportunity. that is the point. childish and laughable? yep, that just about sums up the mental ability you possess: lack of ability to process data, lack of ability to formalise logical inference, lack of interest in arguments that you do not understand and are not willing to.
From a philosophical position I think it is cute that culture anthropology learned to poop without it's poopy pott
To much pre-amble!
The de-Evolution of freedom?
So, where do the indigenous cultures of Europe fit into this conversation? - or is this just more of the usual skin tone neurosis being projected, if a little more intellectually, on those with European ancestry by those who really wish to wield power in the world order to come...who are not in any way to be associated with colonialism at all, in any way whatsoever, not even a little bit, when they build back better a world for our common benefit so that we can own nothing and be happy.