This video was showing the front, as was the push-rod. It can be either or in the front. And I believe for the back, push-rod is more common due to lack of space complications.
i watch your videos so i can know what to be aware of when i end up creating my own. before watching, i assumed a pullrod would be hands down better (because of lower center of gravity, as well as saving weight on smaller pullrods (compression strength vs. tension). im glad you mentioned that you would need to beef up the upper control arm (adding weight) because of the added forces.
Thanks for elaborating. I was just rewatching the coverage from Australia and Malaysia, and at one point Button said he couldn't say for sure whether or not the car was a dud, and then later he said he was optimistic about improving the car. Fingers crossed that they can improve things ongoing. Cheers.
It's difficult to say what is best. But I would say pull/push-rod suspensions are track oriented due to the minimal amount of vertical wheel movement allowed.
i know what he is saying by this, the way its drawn here the spring setup would be pushing on the mounting point(with coilovers at least) which will cause the rocker to rotate the same way its already trying to rotate meaning the chassis will rest on the ground. in order for it to work the mounting point would have to be the left top hole and the other end would have to mount towards the center of the car so it resist's rotation of the rocker and push's the wheel down.
One of the other disadvantages with this set up over the push rod is that all the components of the suspension and access to the suspension is under the car rather than on top and makes changing and tuning more time consuming and critical, something of importance when they have limited time in a session to make the changes to improve the handling.
Apologies, no words were misspelled. I was confused by your entire first point, which ends with "board.2nd" and talks about downloading and karate chopping.
1. It's difficult to read (and understand) what you're saying with incorrect punctuation and spelling. I'm an engineer, so my tolerance is high, but that was bad. I don't get the right click karate, but that's irrelevant. Yes, it looks like pull-rod could become more prevalent. Also, I labeled my forces correctly. My forces are for the ABS.
I go with the assumption that my drawings are never entirely accurate/proportional. Care to explain why the spring will have no effect? It certainly will, as it resists the twisting of the rocker.
Good educational video. However the primary reason more F1 teams these days are reverting back to pullrod type suspension is aerodynamics. The recent rules dictated a changing trend in rear aero design which in turn demanded pull rod system as a solution to get better airflow over the rear bodywork and to the rear wings, exhaust blown diffusers etc. The performance gains on suspension itself is negligible. In fact servicing is more difficult now because parts are less accesible
Umm yeah, I also think the shock absorbers are upside-down. If it was really like that, isn't it will hit the cylinder lower base valve first? Or the one pulled is the cylinder instead of the piston? Well, of course the spring will work. Other than resist rocker from twisting, it will also help to pull the rocker back. Try to pull and push spring, it will come back to it's original form.
Well, I think the main criticism is about the radical change in design, as opposed to other teams like Ferrari and RB who chose to improve last year's car, but F1 cars are very complex machines and it is all related, the main problem may well be the new aero package, but it is being aggravated by the aggresive changes in design, particulary in suspension, giving as a result a hard to drive unstable car.
True, but the suspension on the car you've sketched will most likely either bottom out (chassis resting on the ground) or pull the piston inside the damper to the end of its stroke range, and hence have no effect. By the way, the spring will have no effect :)
Put a space between the . and "2nd". =) What he means is that if you right click on the video and select "stop download" from the flash context menu it brings up, the video shows a preview picture from your video, that just happens to be from around 2:08, when you were talking about CG being lower in a pull-rod setup. In the picture you have your hand positioned so that it looks like you're doing a karate chop to the board. =)
It's been working great for Ferrari since they reintroduced it in 2012, McLaren decided to switch to front pullrods this year too, but it doesn't seem to be working that well, the drivers say the car feels too stiff and bumpy, so the problem seems to be related to the change in the suspension from pushs to pulls, I wonder what did they get wrong.
Even if the upper control-arm/wishbone needs to be stronger, the pull-rod can be very, very light - it could even be a cable - so there is possibly a weight advantage.
Wheat is the problem with left corner? Just say we are looking on the car from the front to the back so all forces and rolls would be ok! NB. 2012 ferrari (F2012) has pullrod suspension BOTH on front and back. RB5 started using pullrods in F1 after quite a long time. PS. And thanks for all great videos, man!
1st, on a lighter note, if you right-click and stop download, you karate chop the board.2nd rear pull-rods are making a comeback on f1 due to smaller rear diffusers, which now allows the room for the pull-rod suspension in the car. 3. You messed up the force transfer for the suspension. The bar of the opposing wheel should be pulling inwards, hence the name.
Thank you so much for making these videos!!!! Im in a civil engineering program and I love cars. Its really cool to have an understandable visual application to some of the math I'm trying to learn. It would be cool if you did some videos on just applying math such as vector addition, derivatives, and integrals but applied it to the physics of cars or suspensions. Theres a cool book on stuff such as this called "physics for gear heads" im sure you've already seen it but just fyi if you haven't.
Red Bull brought this back into F1 in 2009, Made the rear smaller and more sculpted so they could accommodate the new exhausts which blew air on to the diffuser
So this pull rod and push rod are a simple mechanical active suspensions ? and the reanult in 2006 i think they used the mass dumper what it was and what use for them was and why the fia band it?
What about aero, pull-rod seems to be much more in the way of airflow while push-rod is slightly more aligned with the double wishbones. Could it have a large overall impact?
love the videos, thanx ever so much, learning a lot with them!! 2 questions: how could u combine a tilting/leaning stearing mechanisim to a push/pull rod suspension? What you think its better to mantain a inverse trike steering at high velocities: do the front wheels are better off being perpendicular to the ground or leaning towards the curve, while the main frame, girates horizontally, displacing its weight in to the curve as a motorbike does? thanx in advance and again congratulations.
Isn't the complaint being voiced about the MP4-28 more to do with the overall aero not working correctly, as opposed to the unique suspension design having failed?
Maybe because there is just one spring making idependant suspension somehow less independant and that it would require a pull spring. But it gives an idea :)
still the exact same technique just rotated backwards into a leaning position if you understand. imagine his drawing was shown from above instead of from the front/rear of the car
Still not quite sure I understand how pull-rod suspension works!?!??! Normally on push-rod suspension the rod transmits forces to the damper/spring which resists being compressed. In pull-rod it seems the rod will be pulling on the damper instead of pushing on it. So does the pull-rod suspension use a different type of damper that resists pulling rather than pushing? Are the dampers pre-loaded for this? Also doesn't it imply that the rod itself is under entirely different loads since it's being pulled on and potentially 'stretched' under heave loads instead of being compressed?
MegaherzZwei I see where your confusion is coming from. Note how EE lists the con as having more forces act on the top control arm? This is because the pull-rod transmits the force from the top arm to the rocker which makes the damper compress due to the rotation of the rocker. I assume you may have mixed up the role between the anti-roll bar and the damper. I hope this helps :)
dampener will reduce the flow, if it is pulled OR pushed becaused it basically is a system of pistons moving oil in/out of themselves... if you have a look at their internal structure you'll definitely get it :)
He still delivered information. Anyone with IQ higher than a bush at least roughly understands how forces work. Main point of that, was that anti-rool bar maintains both wheels at roughly the same level to prevent rolling (clue's in the name)
I know this is old, but anyway, I disagree with the statement or premise that using a pull rod system "lowers" the CoG. It does not. The CoG is determined by several factors but basically it is the point at which the entire weight of the car is centered. This point can be 12 inches above the ground, 15 inches, etc. By lowering the weight bearing connections of the springs, or here it is the point of rotation of the rocker arm, you are changing the length of the moment arm, which is the imaginary line from the spring mounting point to the height of the CoG. The longer this arm, as is the case with the pull rod versus push rod, the more roll will be introduced into the chassis movement. Sounds complicated but really isn't .
that sway bar doesn't make sense to me. are the upper and lower circles in the center pivot points? seems like they would just pivot without transferring any energy
Yes, it's pivot points. As one moves in it forces the other to do the same, thus pushing or pulling the rocker to rotate a certain direction. I believe I explain it in greater detail on my pullrod video.
Engineering Explained My question isn't important anyway, but if we're looking at the front then the wheel on the right would be forced up during a right turn. Since you said that the wheel on the left is forced up, then we're looking at the rear of the suspension. In any case, I learned what a push-rod and a pull-rod suspension is, and appreciate your educational vids.
FORMULA 1 1600 HP / 2400 CC NASP ANDY BEARING AT BELOW FRONT WHEELS REDUCE ROLLING FRICTION TO 50 % SPEED 600 KMPH RACE TIME 70 mts FOR 90 mts SAVES 20 *60= 1200 SECS WIN BY = 1200/90= 13.3 SAY 12 LAPS COST 500,000 $. INV 100 Mn$ REPAID 300 Mn$ IN 4 YEARS
it is a sketch not in proportion and it dose work because REAL cars in the REAL world you it and it works fine it might pull it down if you use say a strut from a bike but they are more stronger than that so they don't just go to the end of there stroke
Of course that's what F-1 engineers I was working with McLaren Engineers after making deal with F-1 to engineer with F-1 for patent rights to my Carbon Nanotubes, as well as invention of Pull Rod Suspension system. I invented the Carbon Nanotubes on my first year of Engineering in 2014-2015 year at Cape Breton University. this is a lie that Pull Rod was around in 2012. Mandela Effect, I made a deal with F-1 for patent right for my perfected Carbon Nano Tubes of 18 carbon circumference...lol.
Here is a vid w/ a really good cgi of the exact suspension components your talking about, for anyone like me who was looking for real-life visuals of the components: watch?v=K8YJJv97TNw
This video was showing the front, as was the push-rod. It can be either or in the front. And I believe for the back, push-rod is more common due to lack of space complications.
Thanks for explaining both of them so clearly. Ferrari's 2014 and 2015 cars also use pull-rod.
Seems to be requested a lot. I'll have to get to it sometime!
i watch your videos so i can know what to be aware of when i end up creating my own. before watching, i assumed a pullrod would be hands down better (because of lower center of gravity, as well as saving weight on smaller pullrods (compression strength vs. tension). im glad you mentioned that you would need to beef up the upper control arm (adding weight) because of the added forces.
Well after watching the push rod video even a child could understand this. Great job dude!
Thanks for elaborating. I was just rewatching the coverage from Australia and Malaysia, and at one point Button said he couldn't say for sure whether or not the car was a dud, and then later he said he was optimistic about improving the car. Fingers crossed that they can improve things ongoing. Cheers.
It's difficult to say what is best. But I would say pull/push-rod suspensions are track oriented due to the minimal amount of vertical wheel movement allowed.
i know what he is saying by this, the way its drawn here the spring setup would be pushing on the mounting point(with coilovers at least) which will cause the rocker to rotate the same way its already trying to rotate meaning the chassis will rest on the ground. in order for it to work the mounting point would have to be the left top hole and the other end would have to mount towards the center of the car so it resist's rotation of the rocker and push's the wheel down.
One of the other disadvantages with this set up over the push rod is that all the components of the suspension and access to the suspension is under the car rather than on top and makes changing and tuning more time consuming and critical, something of importance when they have limited time in a session to make the changes to improve the handling.
Apologies, no words were misspelled. I was confused by your entire first point, which ends with "board.2nd" and talks about downloading and karate chopping.
1. It's difficult to read (and understand) what you're saying with incorrect punctuation and spelling. I'm an engineer, so my tolerance is high, but that was bad. I don't get the right click karate, but that's irrelevant. Yes, it looks like pull-rod could become more prevalent. Also, I labeled my forces correctly. My forces are for the ABS.
that was probably the coolest vid on this channel
I go with the assumption that my drawings are never entirely accurate/proportional. Care to explain why the spring will have no effect? It certainly will, as it resists the twisting of the rocker.
I researched it a bit, and its very interesting the difference between pull- and push-rod. Most f1 teams are using pull-rod for their back tires now
I drew it correctly. Follow the pull-rod itself, and it makes logical sense that it rotates the way I described.
Good educational video. However the primary reason more F1 teams these days are reverting back to pullrod type suspension is aerodynamics. The recent rules dictated a changing trend in rear aero design which in turn demanded pull rod system as a solution to get better airflow over the rear bodywork and to the rear wings, exhaust blown diffusers etc. The performance gains on suspension itself is negligible. In fact servicing is more difficult now because parts are less accesible
You are a great teacher. Think about making things, and teaching others how to make things. Bravo!
Umm yeah, I also think the shock absorbers are upside-down. If it was really like that, isn't it will hit the cylinder lower base valve first? Or the one pulled is the cylinder instead of the piston? Well, of course the spring will work. Other than resist rocker from twisting, it will also help to pull the rocker back. Try to pull and push spring, it will come back to it's original form.
Well, I think the main criticism is about the radical change in design, as opposed to other teams like Ferrari and RB who chose to improve last year's car, but F1 cars are very complex machines and it is all related, the main problem may well be the new aero package, but it is being aggravated by the aggresive changes in design, particulary in suspension, giving as a result a hard to drive unstable car.
Could be the moment puts a large force on them, but if you're simply referring to my drawing it's just a rough sketch.
True, but the suspension on the car you've sketched will most likely either bottom out (chassis resting on the ground) or pull the piston inside the damper to the end of its stroke range, and hence have no effect.
By the way, the spring will have no effect :)
I don't remember, but I remember hearing it somewhere. But now there's talk of McLaren going to pull-rods all around so who knows.
this is a great little presentation, thank you
Put a space between the . and "2nd". =)
What he means is that if you right click on the video and select "stop download" from the flash context menu it brings up, the video shows a preview picture from your video, that just happens to be from around 2:08, when you were talking about CG being lower in a pull-rod setup. In the picture you have your hand positioned so that it looks like you're doing a karate chop to the board. =)
It's been working great for Ferrari since they reintroduced it in 2012, McLaren decided to switch to front pullrods this year too, but it doesn't seem to be working that well, the drivers say the car feels too stiff and bumpy, so the problem seems to be related to the change in the suspension from pushs to pulls, I wonder what did they get wrong.
Even if the upper control-arm/wishbone needs to be stronger, the pull-rod can be very, very light - it could even be a cable - so there is possibly a weight advantage.
So for a push rod suspension, is there more force on the lower control arm?
Wheat is the problem with left corner? Just say we are looking on the car from the front to the back so all forces and rolls would be ok!
NB. 2012 ferrari (F2012) has pullrod suspension BOTH on front and back. RB5 started using pullrods in F1 after quite a long time.
PS. And thanks for all great videos, man!
1st, on a lighter note, if you right-click and stop download, you karate chop the board.2nd rear pull-rods are making a comeback on f1 due to smaller rear diffusers, which now allows the room for the pull-rod suspension in the car. 3. You messed up the force transfer for the suspension. The bar of the opposing wheel should be pulling inwards, hence the name.
Thank you so much for making these videos!!!! Im in a civil engineering program and I love cars. Its really cool to have an understandable visual application to some of the math I'm trying to learn. It would be cool if you did some videos on just applying math such as vector addition, derivatives, and integrals but applied it to the physics of cars or suspensions. Theres a cool book on stuff such as this called "physics for gear heads" im sure you've already seen it but just fyi if you haven't.
Red Bull brought this back into F1 in 2009, Made the rear smaller and more sculpted so they could accommodate the new exhausts which blew air on to the diffuser
Thanks great video. I have seen that u said they have pull rod at the back. So do they have push rod or pull rod at the front ?
Can you explain how tiwn turbo works and what you need to set one up?
Nice series! I have learned a lot from your videos. Can you do a video about Bose suspension system?
So this pull rod and push rod are a simple mechanical active suspensions ? and the reanult in 2006 i think they used the mass dumper what it was and what use for them was and why the fia band it?
What about aero, pull-rod seems to be much more in the way of airflow while push-rod is slightly more aligned with the double wishbones. Could it have a large overall impact?
could you explain the trick suspension used in the S15 JGTC? It basically locates the rear springs on a horizontal plain rather than a vertical one .
Ahhh, it all makes sense now haha. I was lost.
love the videos, thanx ever so much, learning a lot with them!!
2 questions:
how could u combine a tilting/leaning stearing mechanisim to a push/pull rod suspension?
What you think its better to mantain a inverse trike steering at high velocities: do the front wheels are better off being perpendicular to the ground or leaning towards the curve, while the main frame, girates horizontally, displacing its weight in to the curve as a motorbike does?
thanx in advance and again congratulations.
Shock absorbers work both ways, no?
If i want to over engineer a all teraing golf cart.
Can this be tuned to be altra smooth ride?
The dampers, the way you sketched them, will be working oppposite of their intended use. Wheel bump, will be controlled by damper rebound.
Ferrari and McLaren are using Pull-rods this year. Ferrari used them last year as well.
Thanks for this
@Engineerinhexplained: can u please do a video on multi link suspensions
sorry i meant to say compression and tension. some materials perform better in only one of those conditions.
Good example to look up, 2022 McLaren MCL36 has pull rod on the front. Push rod on the back.
You should replace Rob Smedley. Maybe Felipe Massa would have more luck on 2013.
Congratulations from Brasília, Brazil.
Algoodo Phun is now for board platform?
Thank you very much!
Hi! Your videos are very interesting and instructives. Thanks a lot!
Isn't the complaint being voiced about the MP4-28 more to do with the overall aero not working correctly, as opposed to the unique suspension design having failed?
Maybe because there is just one spring making idependant suspension somehow less independant and that it would require a pull spring. But it gives an idea :)
Springs work both in compression and tension? Unless you just looked at it wrong maybe and thought that it wouldn't move?
I'm seeing a lot of images of the dampers being lined up longitudinally with the long axis of the car. How would the rocker setup work for that?
still the exact same technique just rotated backwards into a leaning position if you understand. imagine his drawing was shown from above instead of from the front/rear of the car
Thank you so much
Yeah, I looked at the force transfer wrong. I don't know what you mean by incorrect spelling though, I have spell check on my internet . . .
on a actual f1 car theres 3 springs, the heave spring and then the pivot points of the rockers are actually torsion bar's
most materials work better under compression (pushrod) rather than compression (pullrod). so if itd weak under compression then you need a thicker rod
Can u explain me how does a suspension system should be in a atv's?
force resultant also plssss
Explain third part element, please
legendary "hello everyone and welcome" was born here 😋
Still not quite sure I understand how pull-rod suspension works!?!??! Normally on push-rod suspension the rod transmits forces to the damper/spring which resists being compressed. In pull-rod it seems the rod will be pulling on the damper instead of pushing on it. So does the pull-rod suspension use a different type of damper that resists pulling rather than pushing? Are the dampers pre-loaded for this? Also doesn't it imply that the rod itself is under entirely different loads since it's being pulled on and potentially 'stretched' under heave loads instead of being compressed?
MegaherzZwei I see where your confusion is coming from. Note how EE lists the con as having more forces act on the top control arm? This is because the pull-rod transmits the force from the top arm to the rocker which makes the damper compress due to the rotation of the rocker. I assume you may have mixed up the role between the anti-roll bar and the damper. I hope this helps :)
dampener will reduce the flow, if it is pulled OR pushed becaused it basically is a system of pistons moving oil in/out of themselves... if you have a look at their internal structure you'll definitely get it :)
1:45 That looks as if it would push the (from the front view) right wheel DOWN instead of up.
He still delivered information. Anyone with IQ higher than a bush at least roughly understands how forces work. Main point of that, was that anti-rool bar maintains both wheels at roughly the same level to prevent rolling (clue's in the name)
What exactly is the reason that upper a arms need to be a bit thicker in size because i mean pulling is easier than pushing. confused here
I believe the wheel movement is only about 2 to 3 cm !
Anti roll bars are so cool :D
Please do more on f1?
It's by any chances, would you remake this video with MacPherson & double wish bones?
My gas powered rc car has this type of suspension it is nice because my she's hocks are moe inside the car and protected and great explantion
McLaren revealed their 2013 car today, and they have indeed went with pull-rod suspension.
I know this is old, but anyway, I disagree with the statement or premise that using a pull rod system "lowers" the CoG. It does not. The CoG is determined by several factors but basically it is the point at which the entire weight of the car is centered. This point can be 12 inches above the ground, 15 inches, etc. By lowering the weight bearing connections of the springs, or here it is the point of rotation of the rocker arm, you are changing the length of the moment arm, which is the imaginary line from the spring mounting point to the height of the CoG. The longer this arm, as is the case with the pull rod versus push rod, the more roll will be introduced into the chassis movement. Sounds complicated but really isn't .
that sway bar doesn't make sense to me. are the upper and lower circles in the center pivot points? seems like they would just pivot without transferring any energy
Yes, it's pivot points. As one moves in it forces the other to do the same, thus pushing or pulling the rocker to rotate a certain direction. I believe I explain it in greater detail on my pullrod video.
is the damper upside down because wouldn't pull on the damper instead of push?
+lerold weston if you flip the damper 180 degrees it doesn't change whether it's pulled/pushed. They will work both directions (push/pull).
The valving inside a damper can be run either way, as needed.
Are we looking at the front of the suspension, or the rear?
I believe I drew the front, though either way it works.
Engineering Explained My question isn't important anyway, but if we're looking at the front then the wheel on the right would be forced up during a right turn. Since you said that the wheel on the left is forced up, then we're looking at the rear of the suspension. In any case, I learned what a push-rod and a pull-rod suspension is, and appreciate your educational vids.
I must disagree with you. Pull rod system was used on Arrows A21 and Minardi PS01 (booth are vehicles from year 2001)
FORMULA 1 1600 HP / 2400 CC NASP
ANDY BEARING AT BELOW FRONT WHEELS REDUCE ROLLING FRICTION TO 50 %
SPEED 600 KMPH RACE TIME 70 mts FOR 90 mts SAVES 20 *60= 1200 SECS
WIN BY = 1200/90= 13.3 SAY 12 LAPS
COST 500,000 $. INV 100 Mn$ REPAID 300 Mn$ IN 4 YEARS
it is a sketch not in proportion and it dose work because REAL cars in the REAL world you it and it works fine it might pull it down if you use say a strut from a bike but they are more stronger than that so they don't just go to the end of there stroke
Compression and compression? Is my eyes are broken or it's really like that?
right click the video, and click stop download.
Makes sense. So my next car will be a 2012 Ferrari F1.
Of course that's what F-1 engineers I was working with McLaren Engineers after making deal with F-1 to engineer with F-1 for patent rights to my Carbon Nanotubes, as well as invention of Pull Rod Suspension system.
I invented the Carbon Nanotubes on my first year of Engineering in 2014-2015 year at Cape Breton University. this is a lie that Pull Rod was around in 2012. Mandela Effect, I made a deal with F-1 for patent right for my perfected Carbon Nano Tubes of 18 carbon circumference...lol.
The other right, man.
Who is here because Mc Laren just confirmed they will use this system for their 2022 car?
I invented the Push Rod while working with F1..lawsuit?
F1
Who is here for Mclaren's 2022 car?
whos here because of 2022 mclaren car?
Here is a vid w/ a really good cgi of the exact suspension components your talking about, for anyone like me who was looking for real-life visuals of the components: watch?v=K8YJJv97TNw
now ferrari will use it haha
Nope... this is Pullrod, the other video was Pushrod.
i dont follow your logic, how can you think that the car looks like his drawing... you mehrican?