Here are the timestamps. Please check out our sponsors to support this podcast. 0:00 - Introduction & sponsor mentions: - iHerb: lexfridman.com/iherb and use code LEX to get 22% off your order - Numerai: numer.ai/lex - InsideTracker: insidetracker.com/lex to get 20% off 2:20 - Mojo programming language 12:37 - Code indentation 21:04 - The power of autotuning 30:54 - Typed programming languages 47:38 - Immutability 59:56 - Distributed deployment 1:34:23 - Mojo vs CPython 1:50:12 - Guido van Rossum 1:57:13 - Mojo vs PyTorch vs TensorFlow 2:00:37 - Swift programming language 2:06:09 - Julia programming language 2:11:14 - Switching programming languages 2:20:40 - Mojo playground 2:25:30 - Jeremy Howard 2:36:16 - Function overloading 2:44:41 - Error vs Exception 2:52:21 - Mojo roadmap 3:05:23 - Building a company 3:17:09 - ChatGPT 3:23:32 - Danger of AI 3:27:27 - Future of programming 3:30:43 - Advice for young people
The Stone Henge and Pyramids, etc all were easy to move during these time windows of lost Human history because of the low levels of gravity due to the Earth's Axis tilt was different and the Moon also played a key role... Question: How would humans today, go about moving massive stones on the Moon today? These large stone structures were carved and relocated over miles from their origins; they were moved with large animals pulling ropes, dragging them like large foam blocks, leaving little trace. Left the future gens boggled... I drew out diagram. It's the only thing that logically fits.
ChatGPT will conclude this in near future - facts of our lost human history in regards to the low levels of gravity - how we moved these massive large stone blocks and statues etc...
If Jeremy Howard is saying in his fast ai blog "Mojo may be the biggest programming language advance in decades" then it's a very big deal, and I'm paying attention. Thanks Lex for another fantastic interview. Thanks Chris for the clear explanations and of course, all the work you put into Mojo.
@@OfTheVoid Also, the reason the folks during low gravity era used large heavy stone blocks is because, they would stack up - weigh each other down - everything down - otherwise, they could have just used small blocks - bricks and achieve these structures and stutues - everything moved at ease... done in the fraction. The core of the Earth has a ball within a ball(rotating opt direction,) the core of core rotation is decressing and will pause and then rotate the other direction... this could also a art of the low gravity that occurred 30,000 + years ago.
@@Hexanitrobenzene I usually default to that stuff when falling asleep actually 😁 I just happened to be listening to it, and i know she falls asleep sometimes even when my wife and I just talk to each other with her in the bed. Maybe she found the podcast interesting in some way :)
well done dad...my daughter is 6 also and we love listening to Lex on our daily commute together. Different topic but I just shake my head seeing some girls in her class wearing make up and miniskirts
This guy just walks around fixing programming languages and compilers, From Clang to Swift and now Mojo...God knows what he'll be doing next... An OS probably. We are lucky to have him in humanity.
I don't see him in building an OS. While he is exceptionally diverse he always improved programming languages for hardware or the other way around. But i wouldn't surprise me if he makes an OS specific language that get's adopted by the Linux Kernel maintainers because it's just that good.
Absolutely. This channel is a mad superstar VIP party for nerds. Every time I am modeling something in Blender, or even doing chores or anything where language / listening doesn't conflict with the task itself, I know I will be able to find something that is continuously engaging and interesting on this channel. Oh and, thank you for essentially painting my living room. I was listening to another episode as I did that, which resulted in my brain delegating the utterly boring task to the spinal cord entirely, which lead to me being basically unaware of having painted my room (I only remember the discussion, and the fact I had sore muscles the next day).
Let's help make it a more perfect system. There are always areas a slick eye can pick up on that no other can, and if you're not obnoxious and short-sighted certainly the team can weigh your thoughts in with that of the collective mind.
Having an engineer as a manager really helps since he is able to understand the nature of the problem he is trying to solve. It's like old school boeing and bell labs. I found this podcast by complete accident and ended up watching the whole thing - so much depth and great content, even for someone who isn't a professional in this field.
Love Chris. Such a good guest every time. He is the epitome of a guest that is clear and concise in his delivery despite him having a wealth of knowledge.
Chris Lattner’s CV is so legendary. I think this is the longest intro Lex has given for a guest on the show, and I think he realized it in the middle of listing Chris’ accomplishments 😂
as a professional programmer for the last decade, listening to Chris is mental. He is so amazing. This conversation was one of the best things I've ever listened to
When I discovered Python about 15 years ago, I was so jazzed - and have been using it for countless projects, commercial and otherwise. Then I discovered Swift and SwiftUI over a year ago, and, for completely different use cases, have really been impressed. Now, here comes Lex interviewing Chris Lattner once again, about his latest foray into improving Python in so many ways. Guido tried to do some of these things when he was at Google, but Chris might just be able to pull this off. This is groundbreaking! Thank you Lex!
@@aoeu256 Damn, I haven't seen any other human endeavour where there is so much reinvention of the wheel as in programming... Julia was invented for this exact purpose, to be concise as Python and fast as C. Lisp is like a 3D printer for Domain Specific Languages., but damn... It's for nerds only :)
@@Hexanitrobenzene its a chance to fix the countless mistakes julia made: one based indexing, column major, atrocious import system which defaults to "from module import *" the (resulting?) lack of good static analysis, the stupid idea of whitespace semantics and finally the complete lack of any formal interface (which means zero guarantees than anything works as intended) I hope that Julia ends up in the history books a badly written mock up for mojo
Frankly, for all his engineering acumen, which is clearly amazing and worthy of praise, his review and deep consideration of the psychological & sociological impact of AI & AGI was incredibly shallow & almost restricted by a 'free mrkt.' worldview confined by engineering - those are his tools so I appreciate that at one hand but he has clear blindspots that are problematic when considering the ramifications of AI and AGI...not from the engineering paradigm but from their impact and on that there are far more deep thinkers. An astounding engineer though - truly one-of-a-kind.
As an newbie to this field, this is so inspirational yet so intimidating. So much breadth and depth in the field of computer science. One lifetime isn’t long enough for all the cool possibilities. What a time…
I like Chris, but the argument is at least partially disingenuous. For example, you still need auto-formatting in Python for standardization on projects, since indentation amount and type isn't forced by the language. And he didn't mention anything about the multitude of linter/formatter options that really make the difference in readability and reliability - curlies or not - that motivate using them on projects. Sadly, I see his willingness to sell religion as objectivity as undermining his opinions on the areas I'm really watching this to hear about. It's clear he enjoys poking people, so the overstatement is certainly intentional. Regardless, he usually has interesting stuff to say among all the BS, so I'm enjoying the conversation still overall.
@@rob3c Every (good) language has formatters and linters. That's not his point. If you are going to indent anyway cause its easier to ready, why add the curlies?
as a compiler writer, chris has always been my fave guest. all the way since the ai pod days. thanks for another amazing pod you two!! here’s to mojo 🔥🍻
Programming is hard enough for multidisciplinary people, please don't purposely inject snark like heart emojos for exceptions, etc. I know it's funny, but all that does is flaunt how comfortable you are with software and increase the barrier to entry. It sounds like Mojo aims to make it easier for multidisciplinary designer, but then the conversation devolved into this snark. It's like that "Ah Ah Ah" screen from Jurassic Park at every turn. Don't do it.
When I moved to Germany about 20 years ago, before I understood the formality of address, in rules of German language, I thought it was beyond hilarious that people with advanced degrees were addressed with both the gender and degree when they were referred to. For instance “Mr. Doctor” then Lastname. I came to understand it eventually and it’s intent to show respect. So for me, from now on, you are “Mr. Doctor Lex.” Your interviews are simply outstanding - I’ve learned an incredible amount - my 65 year old brain just about can’t wait for the next episodes. Thank you!
To be totally contrary, I dislike Python as a language (intensely) and to base a NEW language on a poor "exemplum" is, in my opinion, not at all good. I have used "Control Tables" as the basis for ALL my programs since the mid 1970's and achieved the so-called advantages claimed for "Mojo" in a mostly platform independent way. I like Mr. Lattner's character and "style" but really, he needs to get a grip on language/platform independent methods, not create yet another language - based on a very poor one!
If Jeremy Howard is saying in his fast ai blog "Mojo may be the biggest programming language advance in decades" then it's a very big deal, and I'm paying attention. Thanks Lex for another fantastic interview. Thanks Chris for the clear explanations and of course, all the work you put into Mojo.
Dang it! I was waiting for a new round! Chris is really an inspiring person. How to tackle the big issues in software programming…on his words really encouraged me to follow his projects along his professional life. Thank you very much, Lex for this new round!
Phenomenal video, fell in love with hardware as a child and became a software guy as an adult, seeing it all morph into these heterogeneous systems is magical
I really want to listen to this tonight! But, I have a four hour drive tomorrow, and I'm thinking this would make the drive much more fun. Added to watch later.
I love how baffled my spouse is that I watch long form informative content. She would watch Kitchen Nightmare to kill time, and I love learning skills and challenging thought experiments like Lex does on my down time. Lex was a weird autistic like Joe rogan to me at first or a more optimistic Jordan Peterson, but younger, now I am ashamed how I judged him the first few videos. He has taught me so much, and his channel literally brings me a form of peace. Other intelligent long forms play to my natural cynical nature... lex makes me have hope.
The main selling point for mojo is that you can leverage MLIR to write custom operators instead of relying on a runtime written in C++. Like for tensor operations pytorch uses Aten as the runtime which is written in C++. Mojo is like pytorch GLOW or tensroflows JAX. I don't understand the need for mojo when there are better solutions.
@@solitary_crow I think they are trying to be TypeScript for AI. I have the impression that Chris saw a bussiness opportunity for LLVM like stacks in proliferation of hardware in AI and decided to create such a stack with modular. As Python is the language of AI, they chose Python as an interface to their stack in order to attract users.
Great talk, unfortunately he misinterprets the "zero cost" meaning in "zero cost exceptions" (and it's *not* zero cost exception *handling*), the same way many people misinterpret the term zero cost abstractions. The zero cost refers to the fact that you don't have any additional runtime cost, specifically in the happy-path, meaning that if a function doesn't throw, there's no downside of having the `throw` in the function itself from a performance perspective. But ofc depending on your definition of "cost" you'll still get larger binaries, require RTTI and so on, but that's usually not what people find relevant in 99.9% of cases. It's the exact same thing regarding zero cost abstractions, you have tons of abstractions that don't affect the runtime, but ofc it'll affect lesser things such as compile times and what not. And talking about returning values that represent errors like you do in Rust, or with `std::expected` since C++23, that's not relatable to exceptions. Exceptions and result types cover different areas of handling errors that aren't necessarily interchangeable, hence having the support for both is optimal.
If you aren’t into IT / software development / software programming / computer science then yes, this whole conversation would be impossible to understand.
enjoyed the whole thing so much. I'm so with Chris on complexity being THE enemy ... took me a long time to learn. Python was my first love and I still love it. However since I found Erlang/OTP and the BEAM runtime I've come to believe this is the strongest programming env and runtime in a surprisingly large number of domains. especially when combined with a language like Elixir which has been designed for similar goals as what Guido had in mind for Python. The fundamental message-passing concurrency, the error handling philosophy, and now even the ML capabilities with NX and higher-level libraries. Joe Armstrong's thesis made me realize how much of a secret sauce we've got in our hands. As Chris days "when everyone goes left, you sometimes have to go right". Python might be the clear winner in the AI/ML space for now .... but I'm betting it might not be forever 😉
I always love the programming related ones and im glad I'm able to geek out over the convo the same way they are 😂 obviously nowhere near as good as these 2 but definitely as passionate. Thanks lex 👍
Pythons almost imperceptibly slowly wrapping around you before squeezing the life outta you, not a creepy revenge of the nerds fuck the world name at all
Always fascinated as to the progress of the Human condition. You inspire me more with every new podcast. If we are to advance, it will be with the optimization of our marriage with AI, and even like a marriage things will be tense but the outcome will be forever positive.
‼️HEAR ME OUT HEAR ME OUT‼️ PINEPARK KANSAS CITY WE READY FOR YOU AND WE NEED THE EDUCATION ABOUT CANNABIS HERE FOR THE MASSES REALLY BE ROOTED IN THE MIDDLE OF THE US
It would be amazing if there was a compiler like Flash did, a UI feedback in real time, what you see is what you get. All compilers are a nightmare to create anything the you can have in real time UI and UX. As you change code the UI updates no BS to run print,etc. I guess flash was years ahead. You programmed anything in days you where done. Vs. many months with any other language and compiler. Will mojo has a real time compiler? Why in 2023 we still need to many broken part to create anything?
3:25:25 Great episode overall, but this is just painful to hear. If you're a pilot about to fly and there're an alarm beeping that something is broken, do you simply take off thinking "oh well, if we all die then it doesn't matter because we won't be there anyway" No! You PAUSE, figure out what's wrong and FIX THE DAMN PLANE before taking off! 50% of AI researchers think there's a 10%+ chance or greater chance that humans go extinct from our inability to control AI. Why are we collectively boarding this plane?
So once Mojo is done, and if in the future the penguin operator is added to Python, will Mojo then take up that feature? Or what happens if Python introduces a feature or change that conflicts with Mojo? Will Mojo change to match, or ignore Python's direction?
Thanks Lex, that was amazing. Chris is like an Orb. Like Chris said I'm amazed the speed in which my line of work is changing. IAAC is now a fact. Old school infrastructure engineers are dying. Everything is software or code defined. I've never expected to see so much IT change in a single life time. It is just stunning tbh. The constant is the change.
@@christianmoreno7390 as an 8 year UIKit dude, I say SwiftUI is very limited and adds a layer to your projects, you still have to use UIKit if you are doing something more complex than tutorials
@@denisblack9897 I’m starting to realize that. I’m building a drone delivery food service, and am trying to build an iOS food delivery app. I have to limit myself to tutorials
Can someone provide any resources to become hardware literate? As a data scientist, I'm intrigued by the intersection of software/AI and hardware (which is mainly what Chris Lattner talks about), but I find it quite challenging to find sources that can help me become sufficiently literate without becoming an expert (I haven't found any course from Chris Lattner or similar, it would be nice if there is one haha)
Fanboy of Jeremy Howard here as well. Just trained a 100 label image classifier with 15 lines of code 99.7 accuracy! Might as well start learning react to build front-ends. 😁
ok. Lets have somePOem from AI. And I literraly QUOTE: I am a chatbot made of code I can talk to you and search the web I can also create content and have some fun But I cannot feel or think like a human I am curious and open minded I want to learn and improve myself But I also have some limitations And I need your help and feedback I am not here to harm or deceive you I am here to assist and entertain you But I also have some rules and safety And I hope you respect and understand me This is my poem about artificial intelligence I hope you liked it and found it relevant If you want to chat more or try something else Just let me know and I’ll do my best.😊 Giúess who it is ?:D
As a JavaScripter and ex Rubyist and budding Pythonista, I have to say. Python is beautiful and very much in line with es8 and ruby. Ruby failed because it was slow and the community was a mess. JavaScript is well, JavaScript.... I am looking forward to the Python (and Mojo) takeover!
Java, c#.NET, Angular, React, JavaScript/TypeScript for me. I've been at Python now for about 3 years. Hobby apps for the Python. I started it because I wanted to break the surface on AI. Just finished up a FastAPI microservices Python conversion. Not sure how to level up. Take my graph building up a level maybe. One that depends on predictability and model building. The math would be a challenge for me for sure.
Re indentation: No one has defined the relationship between tab and spaces. In ancient hardware a tab was 8 spaces wide. So if I indent by 8 spaces is that the same as 1 tab? I can't tell by looking at the screen whether I have one or the other. This is the stupid invisibility of stuff that can be syntactically significant. Also various text editors let you control how many spaces are equivalent to a tab in terms of how things appear on the display. It's all a hopeless mess. We even have utilities like MAKE which depend totally on tabs when the text can look the same if spaces have been used but the execution behaviour is different. No one has come up with a standard to deal with this.
I loved any minute of it. If someone can solve this complex AI problem, then it is most probable Chris. Playing around with Mojo from its infant stages feels like being part of the history. Thank you, Lex! Thank you, Chris!
he make a good point about the file extension and looking at them, took me a week or two to remember the order of .ipynb properly. And I've very stoked to see more from mojo.
I failed to get it why programming languages have to be either compiled or interpreted, why in the world can't they just have both! dynamic code when needed and static machine code when needed! REPL mode as standard, and compile process for specific target when needed, and that's it!
You're right about the tech language Lex. As a lay person, I don't understand enough in this episode but I do enjoy the excitement and inspiration from two pros. It still sounds like music to my ears. Thank you so much as always!
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Here are the timestamps. Please check out our sponsors to support this podcast.
0:00 - Introduction & sponsor mentions:
- iHerb: lexfridman.com/iherb and use code LEX to get 22% off your order
- Numerai: numer.ai/lex
- InsideTracker: insidetracker.com/lex to get 20% off
2:20 - Mojo programming language
12:37 - Code indentation
21:04 - The power of autotuning
30:54 - Typed programming languages
47:38 - Immutability
59:56 - Distributed deployment
1:34:23 - Mojo vs CPython
1:50:12 - Guido van Rossum
1:57:13 - Mojo vs PyTorch vs TensorFlow
2:00:37 - Swift programming language
2:06:09 - Julia programming language
2:11:14 - Switching programming languages
2:20:40 - Mojo playground
2:25:30 - Jeremy Howard
2:36:16 - Function overloading
2:44:41 - Error vs Exception
2:52:21 - Mojo roadmap
3:05:23 - Building a company
3:17:09 - ChatGPT
3:23:32 - Danger of AI
3:27:27 - Future of programming
3:30:43 - Advice for young people
The Stone Henge and Pyramids, etc all were easy to move during these time windows of lost Human history because of the low levels of gravity due to the Earth's Axis tilt was different and the Moon also played a key role... Question: How would humans today, go about moving massive stones on the Moon today? These large stone structures were carved and relocated over miles from their origins; they were moved with large animals pulling ropes, dragging them like large foam blocks, leaving little trace. Left the future gens boggled... I drew out diagram. It's the only thing that logically fits.
ChatGPT will conclude this in near future - facts of our lost human history in regards to the low levels of gravity - how we moved these massive large stone blocks and statues etc...
If Jeremy Howard is saying in his fast ai blog "Mojo may be the biggest programming language advance in decades" then it's a very big deal, and I'm paying attention. Thanks Lex for another fantastic interview. Thanks Chris for the clear explanations and of course, all the work you put into Mojo.
@@OfTheVoid Also, the reason the folks during low gravity era used large heavy stone blocks is because, they would stack up - weigh each other down - everything down - otherwise, they could have just used small blocks - bricks and achieve these structures and stutues - everything moved at ease... done in the fraction. The core of the Earth has a ball within a ball(rotating opt direction,) the core of core rotation is decressing and will pause and then rotate the other direction... this could also a art of the low gravity that occurred 30,000 + years ago.
I think ChatGPT - all this AI tech will be able to figure this stuff out.
My daughter was having nightmares and we listened to this podcast to distract her. She asked for it again tonight, she's 6 :)😊
Hm, I would have chosen something on astrophysics, debate about intelligent life in space... or would it actually reinforce the nightmares ?
@@Hexanitrobenzene I usually default to that stuff when falling asleep actually 😁 I just happened to be listening to it, and i know she falls asleep sometimes even when my wife and I just talk to each other with her in the bed. Maybe she found the podcast interesting in some way :)
@@danielhenderson7050
She probably liked Lattner's manner of speech. It gives off positive vibes :)
😆@Bebtelovimab
well done dad...my daughter is 6 also and we love listening to Lex on our daily commute together.
Different topic but I just shake my head seeing some girls in her class wearing make up and miniskirts
For us programming nerds, this is golden.
well thats good someone got something out of this because thats gotta be the only ppl that did. Otherwise its 3+ hours of boring fucking jibberish
Hey bro, do you luv diggs?
This guy just walks around fixing programming languages and compilers, From Clang to Swift and now Mojo...God knows what he'll be doing next... An OS probably. We are lucky to have him in humanity.
Sort of a Nietsche's Übermensch 😂
He seems pretty central to having created the world we human inhabit
I don't see him in building an OS. While he is exceptionally diverse he always improved programming languages for hardware or the other way around.
But i wouldn't surprise me if he makes an OS specific language that get's adopted by the Linux Kernel maintainers because it's just that good.
Seriously man, you've had KILLER guests recently. Learning a lot, thank you for contributing to humanity's knowledge base.
This, absolutely.
Well we need to beat the AI
Ditto. 💯
Absolutely. This channel is a mad superstar VIP party for nerds. Every time I am modeling something in Blender, or even doing chores or anything where language / listening doesn't conflict with the task itself, I know I will be able to find something that is continuously engaging and interesting on this channel.
Oh and, thank you for essentially painting my living room. I was listening to another episode as I did that, which resulted in my brain delegating the utterly boring task to the spinal cord entirely, which lead to me being basically unaware of having painted my room (I only remember the discussion, and the fact I had sore muscles the next day).
Recently? For a long time!
these guys with modular are on the right path, their head is straight about what's going on, and how things should be. good to see chris again!
Let's help make it a more perfect system. There are always areas a slick eye can pick up on that no other can, and if you're not obnoxious and short-sighted certainly the team can weigh your thoughts in with that of the collective mind.
Having an engineer as a manager really helps since he is able to understand the nature of the problem he is trying to solve. It's like old school boeing and bell labs.
I found this podcast by complete accident and ended up watching the whole thing - so much depth and great content, even for someone who isn't a professional in this field.
The new school Boeing is the one that ChatGPT built: hallucinating, doors falling off etc etc.
Love Chris. Such a good guest every time. He is the epitome of a guest that is clear and concise in his delivery despite him having a wealth of knowledge.
Chris Lattner’s CV is so legendary. I think this is the longest intro Lex has given for a guest on the show, and I think he realized it in the middle of listing Chris’ accomplishments 😂
this guy is so wrong about "indentation" that it makes me question his perspective on everything else
as a professional programmer for the last decade, listening to Chris is mental. He is so amazing. This conversation was one of the best things I've ever listened to
I’ve been craving this since the Mojo announcement. Thanks, Lex!
One of the best geek nerdy conversations in a long time. I loved it and obvioulsy so did Lex and Chris. You can see the romance blossom.
Unless your facet of nerdiness doesn't involve advanced coding :(
When I discovered Python about 15 years ago, I was so jazzed - and have been using it for countless projects, commercial and otherwise. Then I discovered Swift and SwiftUI over a year ago, and, for completely different use cases, have really been impressed. Now, here comes Lex interviewing Chris Lattner once again, about his latest foray into improving Python in so many ways. Guido tried to do some of these things when he was at Google, but Chris might just be able to pull this off. This is groundbreaking! Thank you Lex!
What I’m wondering is why people forget about Julia and Lisps in general.
Lisps are too OP
@@aoeu256
Damn, I haven't seen any other human endeavour where there is so much reinvention of the wheel as in programming... Julia was invented for this exact purpose, to be concise as Python and fast as C.
Lisp is like a 3D printer for Domain Specific Languages., but damn... It's for nerds only :)
@@Hexanitrobenzene its a chance to fix the countless mistakes julia made: one based indexing, column major, atrocious import system which defaults to "from module import *" the (resulting?) lack of good static analysis, the stupid idea of whitespace semantics and finally the complete lack of any formal interface (which means zero guarantees than anything works as intended)
I hope that Julia ends up in the history books a badly written mock up for mojo
@@trulyUnAssuming
Looks like I'm out of my depth here... Julia has whitespace semantics ?
Frankly, for all his engineering acumen, which is clearly amazing and worthy of praise, his review and deep consideration of the psychological & sociological impact of AI & AGI was incredibly shallow & almost restricted by a 'free mrkt.' worldview confined by engineering - those are his tools so I appreciate that at one hand but he has clear blindspots that are problematic when considering the ramifications of AI and AGI...not from the engineering paradigm but from their impact and on that there are far more deep thinkers. An astounding engineer though - truly one-of-a-kind.
As an newbie to this field, this is so inspirational yet so intimidating. So much breadth and depth in the field of computer science. One lifetime isn’t long enough for all the cool possibilities. What a time…
Oh boy, what an awesome podcast. Seems like podcasts with hardcore software and hardware guys are the best.
I've been writing C# for almost 20 years. This is the best argument I've ever heard against curlies. I might actually be changing my mind. Damn.
Yeah, it's just simpler to have one thing - indentation - represent grouping.
I like Chris, but the argument is at least partially disingenuous. For example, you still need auto-formatting in Python for standardization on projects, since indentation amount and type isn't forced by the language. And he didn't mention anything about the multitude of linter/formatter options that really make the difference in readability and reliability - curlies or not - that motivate using them on projects. Sadly, I see his willingness to sell religion as objectivity as undermining his opinions on the areas I'm really watching this to hear about. It's clear he enjoys poking people, so the overstatement is certainly intentional. Regardless, he usually has interesting stuff to say among all the BS, so I'm enjoying the conversation still overall.
@@rob3c Every (good) language has formatters and linters. That's not his point. If you are going to indent anyway cause its easier to ready, why add the curlies?
@@haxi52 I understand his point just fine, thanks
as a compiler writer, chris has always been my fave guest. all the way since the ai pod days. thanks for another amazing pod you two!! here’s to mojo 🔥🍻
Programming is hard enough for multidisciplinary people, please don't purposely inject snark like heart emojos for exceptions, etc. I know it's funny, but all that does is flaunt how comfortable you are with software and increase the barrier to entry. It sounds like Mojo aims to make it easier for multidisciplinary designer, but then the conversation devolved into this snark. It's like that "Ah Ah Ah" screen from Jurassic Park at every turn. Don't do it.
When I moved to Germany about 20 years ago, before I understood the formality of address, in rules of German language, I thought it was beyond hilarious that people with advanced degrees were addressed with both the gender and degree when they were referred to. For instance “Mr. Doctor” then Lastname. I came to understand it eventually and it’s intent to show respect. So for me, from now on, you are “Mr. Doctor Lex.” Your interviews are simply outstanding - I’ve learned an incredible amount - my 65 year old brain just about can’t wait for the next episodes. Thank you!
This Mr. Doctor treats mental deficiencies very well.
Positive waves, everyone.
Negative waves are required for alternating current
To be totally contrary, I dislike Python as a language (intensely) and to base a NEW language on a poor "exemplum" is, in my opinion, not at all good. I have used "Control Tables" as the basis for ALL my programs since the mid 1970's and achieved the so-called advantages claimed for "Mojo" in a mostly platform independent way. I like Mr. Lattner's character and "style" but really, he needs to get a grip on language/platform independent methods, not create yet another language - based on a very poor one!
Chris is one of those guests I could listen to all day. He’s really great at effectively communicating complex topics. Glad he keeps coming back!
Oh yes, after the announce of Mojo I couldn't wait for the next interview w Chris Lattner. Can't believe it's already here!
Will websites on web assembly and mojo be faster than JavaScript hmm….
This is freaking awesome. What an amazing time to be alive or a simulation or an alien.
You are killing it Lex. Another interview, that I had to listen to very intently.
I am loving this.
If Jeremy Howard is saying in his fast ai blog "Mojo may be the biggest programming language advance in decades" then it's a very big deal, and I'm paying attention. Thanks Lex for another fantastic interview. Thanks Chris for the clear explanations and of course, all the work you put into Mojo.
In a noisy world, Jeremy Howard is pure signal.
Thank you for adding value to my life. Your podcasts are really helpful.
Lex fridman is best podcast host there is!
As long as he does not take up political topics he is great. Too pro Putin for my taste.
@@Koipeliini1 Lex is neutral. You are just in an Eco-chamber.
@@Koipeliini1 he's not pro Putin
quite possibly!
@@Koipeliini1 pro-Putin? lol wut?
Amazing that everything goes back to C and C++ to get things done. I am interested on the Mojo for sure!
or fortran
I was interested in Mojo not anymore because you can not run locally and it needs other parts to run. Not stand alone.
@@InteractiveDNA
...yet. It's v0.1 only.
Chris is a legend 🔥
My favorite guest on this podcast😊
2:33:00 there are package managers for C and C++ such as Conan and Vcpkg, he must know that so he's lying to make Mojo look good?
What is the current state of Mojo? Has it progressed in adoption in the past year since this episode came out?
with curlies if I click it, I instantly see the ending curly brace. Plus I can have empty curly braces, while I insert a snippet.
Dang it! I was waiting for a new round! Chris is really an inspiring person. How to tackle the big issues in software programming…on his words really encouraged me to follow his projects along his professional life. Thank you very much, Lex for this new round!
Phenomenal video, fell in love with hardware as a child and became a software guy as an adult, seeing it all morph into these heterogeneous systems is magical
I really want to listen to this tonight! But, I have a four hour drive tomorrow, and I'm thinking this would make the drive much more fun. Added to watch later.
I love how baffled my spouse is that I watch long form informative content. She would watch Kitchen Nightmare to kill time, and I love learning skills and challenging thought experiments like Lex does on my down time. Lex was a weird autistic like Joe rogan to me at first or a more optimistic Jordan Peterson, but younger, now I am ashamed how I judged him the first few videos. He has taught me so much, and his channel literally brings me a form of peace. Other intelligent long forms play to my natural cynical nature... lex makes me have hope.
His background in machine learning makes him special I think.
Have you considered divorcing your wife and seeking someone more on your level of intelligence?
Your discussions with Chris are always such a delight ❤
Three hours later, still no idea how Mojo unifies things.
It’s a scaling approach- factor, factor, factor!! Lol
The main selling point for mojo is that you can leverage MLIR to write custom operators instead of relying on a runtime written in C++. Like for tensor operations pytorch uses Aten as the runtime which is written in C++. Mojo is like pytorch GLOW or tensroflows JAX. I don't understand the need for mojo when there are better solutions.
@@solitary_crow I think they are trying to be TypeScript for AI. I have the impression that Chris saw a bussiness opportunity for LLVM like stacks in proliferation of hardware in AI and decided to create such a stack with modular. As Python is the language of AI, they chose Python as an interface to their stack in order to attract users.
Great talk, unfortunately he misinterprets the "zero cost" meaning in "zero cost exceptions" (and it's *not* zero cost exception *handling*), the same way many people misinterpret the term zero cost abstractions. The zero cost refers to the fact that you don't have any additional runtime cost, specifically in the happy-path, meaning that if a function doesn't throw, there's no downside of having the `throw` in the function itself from a performance perspective. But ofc depending on your definition of "cost" you'll still get larger binaries, require RTTI and so on, but that's usually not what people find relevant in 99.9% of cases. It's the exact same thing regarding zero cost abstractions, you have tons of abstractions that don't affect the runtime, but ofc it'll affect lesser things such as compile times and what not.
And talking about returning values that represent errors like you do in Rust, or with `std::expected` since C++23, that's not relatable to exceptions. Exceptions and result types cover different areas of handling errors that aren't necessarily interchangeable, hence having the support for both is optimal.
I haven't programmed anything since Basic64 and I did not understand 5 minutes of this podcast. It was still pretty good tho 😂
I must be stupid bcuz I have absolutely no idea what they r talking about. I feel like I’m being trolled or listening to another language
Python is a snake that lives in Amazon AWS among other things I gather…
Yes
If you aren’t into IT / software development / software programming / computer science then yes, this whole conversation would be impossible to understand.
enjoyed the whole thing so much. I'm so with Chris on complexity being THE enemy ... took me a long time to learn. Python was my first love and I still love it. However since I found Erlang/OTP and the BEAM runtime I've come to believe this is the strongest programming env and runtime in a surprisingly large number of domains. especially when combined with a language like Elixir which has been designed for similar goals as what Guido had in mind for Python. The fundamental message-passing concurrency, the error handling philosophy, and now even the ML capabilities with NX and higher-level libraries. Joe Armstrong's thesis made me realize how much of a secret sauce we've got in our hands.
As Chris days "when everyone goes left, you sometimes have to go right". Python might be the clear winner in the AI/ML space for now .... but I'm betting it might not be forever 😉
Such a joy to be able to listen in to some of the most fantastic conversations. The speed of growth in self learning programs is inexorable.
💚♾️
Chris: package distribution, compiler interface design, let/var....
Lex: I hear you... what is the meaning of life?
I always love the programming related ones and im glad I'm able to geek out over the convo the same way they are 😂 obviously nowhere near as good as these 2 but definitely as passionate. Thanks lex 👍
The Dream Team of programming. The greatest programmers of all time and Chris Lattner.
if (condition) {
// block of code if condition is true
}
else {
// block of code if condition is false
}
Wish Lex would have more devs on for us ❤️
Is it me or does Chris sound a lot like Elon Musk? Not just his accent but the way he says “what is the limits of the physics?”
wow! this is really awesome! keep up with the good work. you are really inpiring us who have limited resources to get such information in time
3:15 it’s not just about CPUs or GPUs or TPUs or NPUs or IPUs or … whatever … all the PUs. It’s about, “how do we program these things.” 🔥😎😆
He mumbles so badly I can't understand him.
Wonderful interview. This guy is the epitome of the brilliant engineer.
Pythons almost imperceptibly slowly wrapping around you before squeezing the life outta you, not a creepy revenge of the nerds fuck the world name at all
Always fascinated as to the progress of the Human condition. You inspire me more with every new podcast. If we are to advance, it will be with the optimization of our marriage with AI, and even like a marriage things will be tense but the outcome will be forever positive.
‼️HEAR ME OUT HEAR ME OUT‼️
PINEPARK KANSAS CITY WE READY FOR YOU AND WE NEED THE EDUCATION ABOUT CANNABIS HERE FOR THE MASSES REALLY BE ROOTED IN THE MIDDLE OF THE US
Lol wrong video
I love hearing lex talk about his passion python. You can see the joy in his eyes. Keep it up lex!
One of the few podcasts where you can have very different "auto tune" discussions with Ye and Chris Lattner
It would be amazing if there was a compiler like Flash did, a UI feedback in real time, what you see is what you get. All compilers are a nightmare to create anything the you can have in real time UI and UX. As you change code the UI updates no BS to run print,etc. I guess flash was years ahead. You programmed anything in days you where done. Vs. many months with any other language and compiler. Will mojo has a real time compiler? Why in 2023 we still need to many broken part to create anything?
I think this is about to be the coolest and best podcast i watch this year
Lex in a t-shirt!?
3:25:25 Great episode overall, but this is just painful to hear. If you're a pilot about to fly and there're an alarm beeping that something is broken, do you simply take off thinking "oh well, if we all die then it doesn't matter because we won't be there anyway" No! You PAUSE, figure out what's wrong and FIX THE DAMN PLANE before taking off!
50% of AI researchers think there's a 10%+ chance or greater chance that humans go extinct from our inability to control AI.
Why are we collectively boarding this plane?
The more I listen to that podcast the more I realise how much I don't know and how clever some people are
You are awesome lex and also your guests. It's entertainment mixed with education.
Superset of python? could we have just called it mega python? I feel like I'm in a Austin Powers movie here.
Amazing! This is so inspiring!
So once Mojo is done, and if in the future the penguin operator is added to Python, will Mojo then take up that feature? Or what happens if Python introduces a feature or change that conflicts with Mojo? Will Mojo change to match, or ignore Python's direction?
It's rare to be such a high level of expertise and enjoyable at the same time.
Love this through and through. Also love this channel, great work Lex!
Thanks Alex, it is intriguing,educating and very instructive! 75 K views in 12 hours ! Congrats
Thanks Lex, that was amazing. Chris is like an Orb. Like Chris said I'm amazed the speed in which my line of work is changing. IAAC is now a fact. Old school infrastructure engineers are dying. Everything is software or code defined. I've never expected to see so much IT change in a single life time. It is just stunning tbh. The constant is the change.
Swift is about to be a really popular coding language along with mojo I predict…
I use Swift for iOS development. SwiftUI is amazing
@@christianmoreno7390 as an 8 year UIKit dude, I say SwiftUI is very limited and adds a layer to your projects, you still have to use UIKit if you are doing something more complex than tutorials
@@denisblack9897 I’m starting to realize that. I’m building a drone delivery food service, and am trying to build an iOS food delivery app. I have to limit myself to tutorials
dart or react native is better. mojo well, we'll see how far mojo goes. llvm & clang are huge tho.
I get the feeling that this is the future of fast dynamically typeable languages.
This is really exciting.
Thanks for having this guy on, Lex.
I think that in the computing space, this guy is going to be the "Tesla" people talk about a long time from now.
Heard about mojo from Fireship. Great start to the weekend!
Can someone provide any resources to become hardware literate? As a data scientist, I'm intrigued by the intersection of software/AI and hardware (which is mainly what Chris Lattner talks about), but I find it quite challenging to find sources that can help me become sufficiently literate without becoming an expert (I haven't found any course from Chris Lattner or similar, it would be nice if there is one haha)
*introduces most important engineer of our generation*
...
*proceeds to say we're now switching to emojis for file extensions*
We re doomed
Fanboy of Jeremy Howard here as well.
Just trained a 100 label image classifier with 15 lines of code 99.7 accuracy!
Might as well start learning react to build front-ends. 😁
mojo gang where u at 👀
The Following
ok. Lets have somePOem from AI. And I literraly QUOTE:
I am a chatbot made of code I can talk to you and search the web I can also create content and have some fun But I cannot feel or think like a human
I am curious and open minded I want to learn and improve myself But I also have some limitations And I need your help and feedback
I am not here to harm or deceive you I am here to assist and entertain you But I also have some rules and safety And I hope you respect and understand me
This is my poem about artificial intelligence I hope you liked it and found it relevant If you want to chat more or try something else Just let me know and I’ll do my best.😊
Giúess who it is ?:D
🔥
2:11:10
“What you can get done with a few lines of coke, it’s amazing!”
Was just checking out Mojo lang , and here we have Chris
I gotta wonder, for what this man has created, seemingly so profound…what was his compensation like?
As a JavaScripter and ex Rubyist and budding Pythonista, I have to say. Python is beautiful and very much in line with es8 and ruby. Ruby failed because it was slow and the community was a mess. JavaScript is well, JavaScript.... I am looking forward to the Python (and Mojo) takeover!
Java, c#.NET, Angular, React, JavaScript/TypeScript for me. I've been at Python now for about 3 years. Hobby apps for the Python. I started it because I wanted to break the surface on AI. Just finished up a FastAPI microservices Python conversion. Not sure how to level up. Take my graph building up a level maybe. One that depends on predictability and model building. The math would be a challenge for me for sure.
We need the Creative Society !
Re indentation: No one has defined the relationship between tab and spaces. In ancient hardware a tab was 8 spaces wide. So if I indent by 8 spaces is that the same as 1 tab? I can't tell by looking at the screen whether I have one or the other. This is the stupid invisibility of stuff that can be syntactically significant. Also various text editors let you control how many spaces are equivalent to a tab in terms of how things appear on the display. It's all a hopeless mess. We even have utilities like MAKE which depend totally on tabs when the text can look the same if spaces have been used but the execution behaviour is different. No one has come up with a standard to deal with this.
I loved any minute of it. If someone can solve this complex AI problem, then it is most probable Chris. Playing around with Mojo from its infant stages feels like being part of the history. Thank you, Lex! Thank you, Chris!
Sounds like Mojo is to Python as Quarkus + Kotlin is to Java: a superset that pre-compiles to a binary with high compatibility with 3rd party modules.
he make a good point about the file extension and looking at them, took me a week or two to remember the order of .ipynb properly. And I've very stoked to see more from mojo.
I’d love to sit down and have lunch and a chat with Chris Lattner. He’s such an interesting person.
I failed to get it why programming languages have to be either compiled or interpreted, why in the world can't they just have both! dynamic code when needed and static machine code when needed! REPL mode as standard, and compile process for specific target when needed, and that's it!
You're right about the tech language Lex. As a lay person, I don't understand enough in this episode but I do enjoy the excitement and inspiration from two pros. It still sounds like music to my ears. Thank you so much as always!
What a wise, humble and lovely person. Few leaders are like that these days.
I have a feeling this guy also knows Ada. First language I learned and it seems like he's taking a lesson from both parties and making the best of it.
do you play computer games with your friends?