Great video, Shane. As I see it the rocker plate seems to take away nothing significant while adding a couple of quite-valuable benefits. What I mean by that is that sprinting out of the saddle on a rigid trainer is already dramatically different from doing so outside (and requires a different technique to reduce the likelihood of frame damage), so, while a rocker plate might change that dynamic a little, it doesn't seem like it's in any significant way more or less awkward than the rigid setup is... It may just mean a slight adjustment to the indoor sprinting technique you've mentioned in other videos. On the flip side, the rocker plate solution stands to dramatically reduce the long-ride bum soreness issue and even can reduce chances of frame damage on sprints by cushioning the stresses on the seatstays, chainstays, and bottom bracket, particularly on the errant motions we all inevitably make at max effort... both definite wins for the rocker plate solution. Admittedly, the frame damage problem is already a fairly uncommon thing, but I'm betting it worries many people all the same (as it does me with my old Aluminum trainer bike of questionable provenance. Metal fatigue - especially with aluminum - is a very real thing), so the rocker plate would just add peace of mind for those of us who are inclined to worry. That said, I do appreciate you putting this together to disabuse people of the notion that this will be the perfect fix for every shortcoming of indoor riding. Tradeoffs must be made, and rocker plates are one solution that at least helps reduce the less desirable ones.
I pointed this out nearly a year ago when I designed my own setup which is basically the "real plate" design before they came about, damn I wish I thought to corner that market. I explained to some of the earlier designers that the movement was exactly out of time compared to outdoors and most people didn't even realize they're rocking timing was off, not everyone is as perceptual as others I guess. It was truly amazing how many people were so focused on one aspect of the experience that they completely overlooked that face they were backwards the whole time. It was then pointed out to me by one of the main rocker plate forum contributors that naturally the timing will be off but with a little practice and focus on the upper body input, you can reverse the timing to match outdoor riding just fine. The idea made sense but I sidelined my project the following week do to other unrelated reasons and never got a chance to practice correcting the motion myself.
Also Shane what you were trying to convey in words about how and why the bike rocks outdoors is a result of counter steering as much as it is forcing the bike over with your arms. I've given up trying to explain hoe counter steering works to those who don't already understand it because although it is critically important to know how to do, it's also something everyone who knows how to ride a bike has already mastered without even knowing it and thus they expect it to be explain as some form of advanced technique like riding a wheelie .
I just went back to having my trainer sit on the floor. I built a nice rocker and kept adjusting things on it but never really got comfortable with it. Your explanation of how it is out of the saddle is spot on with how I was feeling. I felt much better and sprinted harder and faster without the rocker.
@@SamLGND I found that I was not able to produce as much power on the rocker plate. It also felt awkward doing standing sprints while on the rocker. I am fortunate to live in central Florida so I can ride outside the majority of the year. I only need the indoor trainer on rainy days or if I am real short on time during the week.
Love your objectivity Shane, just telling it the way it is. Personally I understand the pursuit of the ideal outdoor experience indoors but for me its about accepting they are two different things and purposes. Part of me hopes we never achieve it and the outdoors will always be the pinnacle of cycling experience. Thanks
Cheers Marc. My motive here is to be 100% clear what these rocker plates currently are, and what they are not - for me. Which comes from a background of years of racing outside (and inside). I'd hate to see someone be misinformed of the experience and be let down that it's not the same as what they believed. These might be the start of something really interesting in years to come.... let's see.
I wonder if the next evolution of rocker plates is an electronic version that adjusts the side to side resistance based on a number of criteria e.g out of the saddle, cadence and incline.
About the "out-of-the-saddle" hammering, especially at higher RPM's...I have long given up of 'proper' road pedal/lean timing and just go with the flow of hammering it the exact opposite of real world rocking. Works perfectly well for me (YMMV). I did 6 laps of the Innsbruckring route yesterday and hammered the Hell out of the climb 5 times as fast as I could pedal it. Other than going oxygen debt blind and into cardiac arrest by the time I made the turn for the descent I could keep the cadence maxed all the way up...out of the saddle. Sometimes I think people think too much about having 'correct' form. Like Shane said, I'm just on the trainer for a hard workout and my Kurt Kinetic Rock & Roll keeps me in the saddle longer and more comfortably. How I look while I'm getting that workout really doesn't concern me. So for Shane...here's your meme! Queue Morgan Freeman: "He's right you know!
Great video as always mate. Was going to get a rocker plate, but after your review going to hold off as I do a lot of sprinting outdoor and its just not the same on my Elite Smart Trainer
Sprinting is an outdoor skill. There's so much more to it than just pushing the pedals. Having said this, strength work for better sprinting can be done indoors.
The reason rocker plates are awkward to use is the same reason the crown roller feels so nature. Outdoors, when a bike leans the geometry causes the bike to steer into the lean, and a resulting later force in the direction of the lean. Crowned rollers leverage this to "trick" the bike into always thinking it is "leaning" toward the center of the roller. During out of the saddle efforts the lateral forces of the leaning bike help cancel out the opposing lateral forces applied by the rider on the outside pedal as they sway across the bike. A rocker plate would need to increase the leaning effect of the bike during out of the saddle efforts and resist leaning during seated efforts. However such a complicated design would likely not feel very nature and would likely cost too much, but it would probably make the tacx magnum look like pretty good value compared to ride feel.
I like mine for the seated movement, I totally agree out of the saddle sprinting is just not natural. I have my rocker setup firm, good movement seated and pretty stable when sprinting.
Firm is the problem. Too much centering force kills the feel for standing. I have a draft video showing how light my springs are, and you can already see I have natural standing motion in my other short ride video.
Chad will you post a link when you upload that video? I'm curious to see your spring setup. I am/was operating the same way as James. Fairly firm setup just to take the edge off. I can max out the rocker movement by leaning my body over, but generally, the bike is quite stable.
I will get a video posted soon, For now, here is the data sheet I made with data obtained from the video. You can use it to measure the forces on your own rocker and compare. docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Pn9YUO8XhidkYnDvIwdZBkNCmXKFxqweJf12r2kXofw/edit?usp=sharing Explanation: 1) I measured the lean angle at 1* increments. 2) I applied my load from the center of the pivot approx 31.25" [79cm] to the location on my seat tube. 3) I used a simple spring scale to record the force at that point. 4) Multiply that Force and Distance, and you get the "Moment" or torque value at each angle. 5a) I commonly use about 3-4* lean per side in most rocking motion. 5b) That means the actual force is about 10lbs [5kg] to get that lean, when applied at the seat post height listed. And that is a very low force when you consider what I am pretty sure I see from other setups.
Here is the thing though, I hardly ever stand inside or outside. Why would I compromise on the comfort I desire on my trainer with my rocker for the odd few seconds when I do stand. Horses for courses Chad. I know you have done a ton of work and experimentation but there is no one solution that suits everyone. Personally I really don't like your setup where one is constantly trying to find the balance sweet spot. I just want a bit of movement that satisfies 97% of my riding on the trainer. Ride On.
Not sure if you covered this in another video, but how would you compare the feel of these rocker plates to rollers or the Kinetic Rock and Roll trainer?
Thanks for the video. I’ve been wondering about these more and more as the Norwegian winter closes in on us here. So it sounds like we need a handle bar mounted lockout remote to lock the rocker plate for sprints the same as with suspension on mtbs. As for the forward backwards movement of the cyclops rocker plate- I’ve seen clips of people making frames for their rollers to allow for-aft movement and they seem to like it. So it might not be so bad. Time will tell
Agree, standing on a rocker plate just feels weird, the first time I thought I was going to go over the handlebars but seated it does feel more natural. I would love to see some study wrt the difference a rocker makes on frame stress since I am sure there must be some change. For me, in my head, it feels like a rocker relieves some of this stress but obviously, that is not very scientific ;)
Agree, definitely not for anything out of a the saddle. It is the complete opposite outdoor. Would be interesting see what a side to side moving plate would be like. On rollers the rear wheel does move side to side?
I don’t experience issues with the Tacx Neo as it does have a certain amount of built in flex. That along with a decent saddle is good enough for me. Your video further convinced me that rocker plates don’t really make it anymore realistic to road riding. The alternative would be rollers but then you have to think a lot more which when on an indoor trainer might not be the best.
Great review as always! One thing tough... You try to replicate the feeling you get riding outside but still you block your front wheel. My Rock and Roll comes with a front wheel adapter that makes the front steering very unstable. I have to work to keep it straight. When sprinting out of the saddle the technique is a little different than outside, I admit. I first push with my hand and when I pedal, the bicycle comes back to upright position. I'm doing this for 5 years now and it did not affected my outside technique because the bike responds different.
I know absolutely nothing about rocker plates but, looking at your outdoors (and skateboard explanation) vs indoor sprint movement, I can easily see the simple difference: Outdoors, the EFFECTIVE left/right pivot point is approximately 3 inches above the ground - as if your wheel is sitting on a small swing. Indoors, the ACTUAL pivot point is the rocker plate hinge which is about 4 inches below the bottom of your wheel. You're welcome.
Thinking about things a bit more. A potential idea for anyone handy would be a plate that is suspended and allowed a small amount of dampened left right swing movement. Problem is that for a direct drive trainer, the true outdoors gyroscopic movement of the front and rear wheel is still missing to keep you centred and upright rather than a fixed trainer. Does sprinting on rollers have the same problem? I assume not as the wheels are turning to give you gyroscope upright force.
It's almost impossible to sprint on rollers, out of the saddle. There's not enough resistance on most rollers for a start - but it's the weight shift and accelerations that will throw you off them. Sprinting on rollers is like sprinting on rollers... and walking on a tightrope for balance! :)
I made a really nice rocker for my Hammer, and still never really liked riding the thing. It did make things more tolerable for 2 plus hours though. I bought a set of EMotion rollers and haven’t touched my Hammer since. It actually feels like riding my bike outside and you can sprint all out on them in the drops. If they came out with a good solid “smart” unit for them they would be perfect.
You can get the newly designed smart resistance for your rollers, but more to the point, you can also get the FFS (floating fork stand) to convert the rollers into a hybrid rocking trainer that actually produces the right motion. Something all these other rocker plates will never do. www.insideride.com/buy/floating-fork-stand-ffs
I allow free float to the front wheel on my Kickr,this allows a significantly more natural feel with minimal fuss. I’m on one side of the fence here on this one Shane...I hate the static feel.
the question I want a answer to is this "does it get rid of saddle soreness for longer trainer sessions?" If it does, then it's a significant improvement. I have a hard time going longer than 65min on Zwift, since my butt starts to hurt. I do double metric centuries with ZERO saddle issues out on the road, but going 2 hours on Zwift my bottom says "no way".
I guess the only thing that comes close to natural are rollers. With Elite Quick Motion rollers or the original InsideRide E-motion rollers, I feel like I'm riding a bike, not a trainer and you can actually sprint on those. But smart rollers are now an option.
Great objective video as always Shane, I have the original Kickr and I have always found I need to get out of the saddle a fair bit to prevent any numbness or pain (i don’t suffer at all outside on the same bike). I guess the rocker plate might alleviate that and give me a more comfortable ride as it has that natural side to side movement whilst seated you demonstrated.
Great video Shane! As a triathlete myself, I didn't find the need for it in the triathlon community. The rockrs seems to be popping up from cyclists who are looking to duplicate the side to side movement you see when sprinting or climbing outdoor. Something triathletes don't do. At least that's my obsevation. Maybe eventually they will adopt it but they are usually first to jump on things like this.
Actually, based on discussions with Kinetic, they say that many of their happy clients are long range Tri athletes. They like the slight motion for improving seated comfort, especially for time in the aero bars. That mirrors the comments of most of the FB RP group stating seated comfort as the primary benefit to the rocker.
So what we really need is to balance the rocker plate on a point at the cg of the bike/rider. Tough ask since the CG moves as you pedal and shift your weight about. Worse there is no angular momentum from the spinning wheels keeping it upright so you're going to tip over. How about a large 4 propeller drone with gyros that you mount the entire system on. So, you float in the air while you pedal the trainer. The gyros take info from the virtual ride /smart trainer and can control pitch and roll and also provide the virtual angular momentum of your spinning wheels. It's going to need A/C power, quite a bit of it, and will be loud.
Bum ache is definitely a thing indoors , I wonder if the answer to that is just some dense foam type material under the trainer?. Rocker plates aren’t for me but neither is saddle soreness but very interesting to watch the development 👍🏻
What about the cycling treadmill? Too expensive for the average person at the moment but would it more accurately simulate outdoor riding with out of the saddle sprints?
Was that backwards California t-shirt just to see if we were paying attention? I was looking to see if Hitchcock was also featured in a brief cameo. Seems like the rear wheel needs to slide laterally, slightly
Any technique to learning the correct way to move the bike on the road out of the saddle same as your demo. A problem I have doing it properly even though it looks easy.
What if we had a rocker plate with no spring or damping, just soft bumpers and the either end of the lean angle. Then use a large flywheel attached to the plate that resists motion like two spinning wheels outside.
It seems your biggest complaint is the lack of sideways movement especially in the sprint. I think to achieve more of what you are wanting you need the gap between the top and lower rocker plate to much be larger between plates, say 350mm in the centre. When leaning to one side the plates are only say 50mm apart, thuis creating a larger angle of lean. Then the last question would be regarding what stresses are on the bike frame when these angles are increased, would they be acceptable.
RE: Bike stress. Nobody knows until we measure it, one day. My guess is since we're not seeing snapped bikes (on rocker, or rigid setups), it's no more of an issue than the stresses they're put though outside.
Gyroscopic effect of a spinning wheel, so when outdoors moving means the bike wants to stand upright. NOT fall over. Also when on the road the front wheel would draw an elongated S shape with the lateral movement, the rear would also do this. This is not possible to recreate on a rocker plate without horizontal left right movement along with tilt.
I made the exact same one you have there and I Find it works realy well, I have my foam blocks all the way out to the edge and i find it works best there, also i found you want you frame of the bike right on top of the hinge, and i have a wahoo kickr on mine :) hope this helps
Analyzing the video, it looks like the pivot point is more like at the bottom bracket or the wheel axles. I wonder if something made to pivot much higher like that would feel more natural... would be really weird/hard to build, but I kinda wanna try it sometime... just gotta find the time :(
I am testing a rig that includes adjustable pivot height. I have used a lower pivot for years with decent success. But from riding outside this year I am curious to see how much difference some heights will make. I will report my results in the Rocker Plate group once I have them. I won't be surprised to see that a pivot a few inches above "the ground" is actually what replicates the real feel outside better.
More of a "sling/swing" type setup where the wheel/trainer can rotate a bit under as a wheel does outdoor, with the center of rotation more in line with just under your wheel hubs. But you would need a serious counterbalance with the swinging weight of any decent trainer --- those things aren't light.
I am looking at a simple axis for starters. My design allows testing of pivot from below to well above the "ground". My basic aim is to determine the preferred axis height for best feel. Depending on those results, a particular design may be need to position the axis for proper feel. I don't anticipate too much trouble unless it is best up close to the hub height (which I doubt). I expect the best to be a few inches above ground/tire contact. Our bikes tend to float a bit on the road, so the simple "tires pivot on the ground" idea may well be the "wrong" answer for a rocker.
Shane these are never going to work like on the road irrospective of what's used air cushions, foam, springs balls etc. To produce movement in the opposite direction maybe you have to introduce servo's and switches to create that movement.
Have you felt you've had to adjust workout watts whilst on the rocket plate? Is there a loss of power transfer at all - ie having to knock TR or Zwift down from 100% to say 95%?
Has anyone thought to build a rocker setup without the foam such that it does not return to vertical? The bike would naturally want to tip to one side or the other. It'd be up to the rider to balance - as you would on rollers. Though, without the front wheel turning, I wonder if that would even be possible.
So on your channel I think I've seen you ride a bike 1) outdoors 2) on a treadmill 3) on rollers 4) on a indoor trainer on "rocker plates" and 5) on a indoor trainer NO "rocker plates". Seems to me that the order I listed them is the order in which they "simulate" outdoors. Obviously 1=1 but from your experience is 2 closest to 1, etc.? And in particular, how do rollers function out of the saddle versus outdoors versus rocker plates?
I've never ridden a cycling treadmill but have ridden rollers for decades. I just can't stand riding a fixed-position bike on a trainer. It just doesn't feel "natural" to me. I currently have the Inside Ride E-Motion rollers and they've been the best cycling purchase I ever made! They're quality built and feel the closest to riding outside I've experienced indoors. Plus, I actually like the little bit of mental engagement rollers require; helps make the time go by quicker. Yes, direct-drive smart trainers have benefits, but for me, I prefer an indoor setup that's actually enjoyable to ride.
Fair enough and I can gleam some clues from your other replies even in this thread. I've only done 1 and 5. Much prefer 1 to 5 and find that 5 is only bearable with Zwift.
Needs a little bit complicated solution to build perfect rocker plate. Because bike is little bit zigzagging like you demonstrate, it needs a rollers under a plate to make it slide side to side too, not just a hinge. But i guess that goes too scientific.
See, I don't understand why someone hasn't referenced the full motion roller design where you have wheels to accomodate the for/aft movement, in addition to the side to side motion. You wouldn't really need that much for/aft motion to add that natural feel of the bike.
Shane actually mentions and shows the CycleOps "Thing" (with him riding it) in this very video. Based on my own testing, the fore-aft motion is a worthwhile addition and improves the overall feel of the rocker plate experience.
Well the 'thing' seems to have quite a bit of spring back by the looks of it, to me, looks to be a different animal than what the rollers are...the weight of that thing appears ungainly on the video.
It is the same concept as the Inside Ride E-Motion rollers. You correctly identify weight being an issue. Extra mass is always a problem when any direction changes are desired. They are especially so in this instance since the changes are frequent and short distance. I made DIY motion rollers and the extra weight of the rollers, motion sled and the other accessories I added to my setup notably impact the responsiveness of the fore-aft motion. Ideally, we want to have a low mass for both the left-right and fore-aft motions. I am working on a refined concept of the various motion rockers and motion rollers I have built over the years. I am experimenting with L-R pivot location and minimal structure to keep the overall mass down. Hopefully I can improve the feel with more "snap" in the fore-aft movement in particular.
Have you done a review of the InsideRide KICKR E-Flex Motion System? I would like to see your opinion of the side to side motion on this rocker system.
The owner of that company, Larry Papadopoulos, has taken it upon himself to attack me, my content, this channel, as he didn't like what I said about rollers. I commonly state they're good for leg speed and warm-ups, but I'd choose a smart trainer over rollers for indoor riding/training. They make rollers. He has a commercial interest in selling rollers. He uses screen name "Leroy People". If I am to cover any of their products on here, it's going to take him to change his ways.
Great videos Shane but got to disagree on some aspects of indoor training and the rocker plates. Firstly in my experience specific sessions indoors work for me and always have. They translate very good to my outdoor riding with the local chain gangs. Yup the out of saddle aspect of the rocker plate isn’t ideal but still better than having my expensive carbon frame locked in a fixed position on my Kickr. Nowhere for that force to go when doing big torque sessions and the frame gets a pounding despite what anyone says. So I would rather have the rocker plate than not
Locking the rocker while standing defeats its whole purpose. The solution here is proper spring setup (i.e. lower centering force). I will do a video soon showing how light I have my setup and you can already see how well it works in the videos I linked here in other replies.
I think this unnatural movement could be removed by having the balls situated under the wheel, rather than at the sides, this makes the natural position of the plate not level. The spinning of the back wheel and fly wheel on the turbo should provide enough force to allow you to balance.
I wonder if you could get around the physics of this with practice... Outdoors, when you apply force to the pedal you need to shift weight to keep the centre of mass over the bike or you fall over. On the trainer, even on a rocker plate (or similar), the bike doesn't fall so you don't *have to* shift weight to maintain balance, like you said. But I guess you could still consciously train yourself to shift the bike to simulate this. The question is, why bother...? It's artificial and it's an unnatural skill you'd need to train. I've never ridden on a rocker so I don't know how easy or difficult it is to consciously move the bike the same way it would naturally move side to side on the road. Also, does the rocker plate alleviate more pressure (i.e. fix saddle soreness more) than just getting up out of the saddle every 10 minutes for a couple of pedal strokes? I ride rollers and my rear gets pretty sore sometimes, so I just stand up occasionally. This seems like a really complicated fix where there's a simpler alternative.
Nailed it. The issue I have as an experienced cyclist - is having to 'relearn' anything. That process alone means it's not like outside, and really no use to me to be honest. CycleOps have data on the saddle pressure being a lot less on their plate, I hope they publish that as it'll give more cred to the primary reason you'd buy their unit (or make one at home).
I'm not totally convinced that the main issue is relearning a technique - there are a number of issues, hardware and wetware related, most of which have been better dealt with by Chad and others than i'll probably manage here. One thing that comes out of your videos (and most of the other ones i've seen) is how much leverage is being put into 'rocking' when outside to maintain balance - through the bars and with the body - and how little is being used when on a rocker plate. Have a look at the first outside example - climbing out of the saddle on the drops - and how the arms and whole body is being used to swing the bike from side to side. Compare that with the (lack of) arm and body movement when on the rocker plates. It feels natural outside when you've ridden for any length of time, but completely forgotten when inside. There is also the issue of resistance and damping on the plates - as people have mentioned many times, most rocker plates seem to be massively over resistive to motion. That's partly inevitable as there is no speed related self-righting with the plate as you would get outside or on rollers, and so you need a certain minimum amount to stop the bike permanently falling over (when using spring/tube resistance), and this does effect the technique used. That said, most people just seem to mash their feet down and then get surprised the bike isn't somehow magically counter balancing. GIGO. There are designs out there that use wide multi-radius curved 'feet' that seem to potentially suffer slightly less in this regard than the central pivot design but i've not made one/tried them yet. Clearly they're a work in progress and not without problems, but it also seems to be necessary to get people to realise how they already ride outside and apply some of those already learned techniques inside - there's still a reasonable amount in common despite several major differences. My 2p worth anyway - cheers for the vid Shane.
Good video Shane. My thoughts too, Alex. SOOOOO??? IS the answer a "split" of sorts? Maybe work on something with less motion, or different motion, or maybe just some flexibility to help with saddle pressure. That should be simpler, less cost, easier to design, maybe more market share? And then the other "split" would be to pursue the full on total complete integration of outside feel inside? Just a thought...
A well designed rocker should allow the bike to fall somewhat - although not to the extent that would happen outside - but you can have damping and end-stops to stop that being a binary lurch one way or another. In that sense there is no new technique to learn - if you stamp on the left pedal you will have to pull the bike right to stop the thing rotating fully over, and vice versa. Many folk seem to forget how they ride outside, stamp on one side and little else - they swing to that side, don't like and crank up the resistance to stop the feeling of tipping so fast. Get the design and resistance right and you can more or less ride like outside - not entirely the same but then if I rode my rollers like I do IRL then i'd end up on my arse far more often as well. That roller skill is something I can improve but it's also *different* and harder work than normal riding. Rockers clearly aren't for everyone, nor have the designs being ironed out AFAIK, but people really seem to be missing the point on the technique and how different it is (or not) from normal riding.
Eventually when human populations grow beyond measure , and the road ceases to be a road ,is the day I’ll go virtual trainer Until that time .., it’s seems rather pointless to recreate a road experience when there is no altitude
It's almost comical to see these rockers in action. They all have the same fatal flaw. Anyone interested in the promise of natural motion on a fixed trainer should look at FFS (floating fork stand) which converts the E-motion rollers into a next-gen rocker. It actually does what all these weird rocker plates are trying to do. www.insideride.com/buy/floating-fork-stand-ffs
Mate.... this is like coming to a fairy party dressed as Batman.There's a time and place, Batman. This isn't it.... and that part of the video where I am riding outside. That's riding outside. They're not mutually exclusive. People do both. The videos I post are about both. It's all good.
....... twas but a jest......I ride on Zwift throughout the bleak mid winter and love it. Just seems to be getting way too obsessive. Indoors is indoors. Outside will (I hope and pray) always be real!
“I could go either way on rocker plates” ... I see what you did there.
Great video, Shane. As I see it the rocker plate seems to take away nothing significant while adding a couple of quite-valuable benefits. What I mean by that is that sprinting out of the saddle on a rigid trainer is already dramatically different from doing so outside (and requires a different technique to reduce the likelihood of frame damage), so, while a rocker plate might change that dynamic a little, it doesn't seem like it's in any significant way more or less awkward than the rigid setup is... It may just mean a slight adjustment to the indoor sprinting technique you've mentioned in other videos. On the flip side, the rocker plate solution stands to dramatically reduce the long-ride bum soreness issue and even can reduce chances of frame damage on sprints by cushioning the stresses on the seatstays, chainstays, and bottom bracket, particularly on the errant motions we all inevitably make at max effort... both definite wins for the rocker plate solution. Admittedly, the frame damage problem is already a fairly uncommon thing, but I'm betting it worries many people all the same (as it does me with my old Aluminum trainer bike of questionable provenance. Metal fatigue - especially with aluminum - is a very real thing), so the rocker plate would just add peace of mind for those of us who are inclined to worry.
That said, I do appreciate you putting this together to disabuse people of the notion that this will be the perfect fix for every shortcoming of indoor riding. Tradeoffs must be made, and rocker plates are one solution that at least helps reduce the less desirable ones.
I pointed this out nearly a year ago when I designed my own setup which is basically the "real plate" design before they came about, damn I wish I thought to corner that market.
I explained to some of the earlier designers that the movement was exactly out of time compared to outdoors and most people didn't even realize they're rocking timing was off, not everyone is as perceptual as others I guess. It was truly amazing how many people were so focused on one aspect of the experience that they completely overlooked that face they were backwards the whole time. It was then pointed out to me by one of the main rocker plate forum contributors that naturally the timing will be off but with a little practice and focus on the upper body input, you can reverse the timing to match outdoor riding just fine. The idea made sense but I sidelined my project the following week do to other unrelated reasons and never got a chance to practice correcting the motion myself.
Also Shane what you were trying to convey in words about how and why the bike rocks outdoors is a result of counter steering as much as it is forcing the bike over with your arms.
I've given up trying to explain hoe counter steering works to those who don't already understand it because although it is critically important to know how to do, it's also something everyone who knows how to ride a bike has already mastered without even knowing it and thus they expect it to be explain as some form of advanced technique like riding a wheelie .
May help people understand en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering
I just went back to having my trainer sit on the floor. I built a nice rocker and kept adjusting things on it but never really got comfortable with it. Your explanation of how it is out of the saddle is spot on with how I was feeling. I felt much better and sprinted harder and faster without the rocker.
Really you dont use the rocker anymore?
@@SamLGND I found that I was not able to produce as much power on the rocker plate. It also felt awkward doing standing sprints while on the rocker. I am fortunate to live in central Florida so I can ride outside the majority of the year. I only need the indoor trainer on rainy days or if I am real short on time during the week.
Love your objectivity Shane, just telling it the way it is. Personally I understand the pursuit of the ideal outdoor experience indoors but for me its about accepting they are two different things and purposes.
Part of me hopes we never achieve it and the outdoors will always be the pinnacle of cycling experience. Thanks
Cheers Marc. My motive here is to be 100% clear what these rocker plates currently are, and what they are not - for me. Which comes from a background of years of racing outside (and inside). I'd hate to see someone be misinformed of the experience and be let down that it's not the same as what they believed. These might be the start of something really interesting in years to come.... let's see.
Well you nailed it mate.
I've had mine for a while now and like you Shane, I like it for the seated riding, hardly get out of the saddle anyway.
I've made my own rocker plate and even though it doesn't help with the technique it does help you stay in the bike longer, like what you've said.
I wonder if the next evolution of rocker plates is an electronic version that adjusts the side to side resistance based on a number of criteria e.g out of the saddle, cadence and incline.
We really wanted to see you do a kickflip on the skateboard at 4:43, Shane. Maybe a nollie to backside smith grind?
About the "out-of-the-saddle" hammering, especially at higher RPM's...I have long given up of 'proper' road pedal/lean timing and just go with the flow of hammering it the exact opposite of real world rocking. Works perfectly well for me (YMMV). I did 6 laps of the Innsbruckring route yesterday and hammered the Hell out of the climb 5 times as fast as I could pedal it. Other than going oxygen debt blind and into cardiac arrest by the time I made the turn for the descent I could keep the cadence maxed all the way up...out of the saddle. Sometimes I think people think too much about having 'correct' form. Like Shane said, I'm just on the trainer for a hard workout and my Kurt Kinetic Rock & Roll keeps me in the saddle longer and more comfortably. How I look while I'm getting that workout really doesn't concern me. So for Shane...here's your meme! Queue Morgan Freeman: "He's right you know!
Great video as always mate. Was going to get a rocker plate, but after your review going to hold off as I do a lot of sprinting outdoor and its just not the same on my Elite Smart Trainer
Sprinting is an outdoor skill. There's so much more to it than just pushing the pedals. Having said this, strength work for better sprinting can be done indoors.
The reason rocker plates are awkward to use is the same reason the crown roller feels so nature.
Outdoors, when a bike leans the geometry causes the bike to steer into the lean, and a resulting later force in the direction of the lean. Crowned rollers leverage this to "trick" the bike into always thinking it is "leaning" toward the center of the roller. During out of the saddle efforts the lateral forces of the leaning bike help cancel out the opposing lateral forces applied by the rider on the outside pedal as they sway across the bike.
A rocker plate would need to increase the leaning effect of the bike during out of the saddle efforts and resist leaning during seated efforts. However such a complicated design would likely not feel very nature and would likely cost too much, but it would probably make the tacx magnum look like pretty good value compared to ride feel.
I like mine for the seated movement, I totally agree out of the saddle sprinting is just not natural. I have my rocker setup firm, good movement seated and pretty stable when sprinting.
Firm is the problem. Too much centering force kills the feel for standing. I have a draft video showing how light my springs are, and you can already see I have natural standing motion in my other short ride video.
Chad will you post a link when you upload that video? I'm curious to see your spring setup. I am/was operating the same way as James. Fairly firm setup just to take the edge off. I can max out the rocker movement by leaning my body over, but generally, the bike is quite stable.
I will get a video posted soon, For now, here is the data sheet I made with data obtained from the video. You can use it to measure the forces on your own rocker and compare.
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Pn9YUO8XhidkYnDvIwdZBkNCmXKFxqweJf12r2kXofw/edit?usp=sharing
Explanation:
1) I measured the lean angle at 1* increments.
2) I applied my load from the center of the pivot approx 31.25" [79cm] to the location on my seat tube.
3) I used a simple spring scale to record the force at that point.
4) Multiply that Force and Distance, and you get the "Moment" or torque value at each angle.
5a) I commonly use about 3-4* lean per side in most rocking motion.
5b) That means the actual force is about 10lbs [5kg] to get that lean, when applied at the seat post height listed. And that is a very low force when you consider what I am pretty sure I see from other setups.
Here is the thing though, I hardly ever stand inside or outside. Why would I compromise on the comfort I desire on my trainer with my rocker for the odd few seconds when I do stand. Horses for courses Chad. I know you have done a ton of work and experimentation but there is no one solution that suits everyone. Personally I really don't like your setup where one is constantly trying to find the balance sweet spot. I just want a bit of movement that satisfies 97% of my riding on the trainer. Ride On.
Not sure if you covered this in another video, but how would you compare the feel of these rocker plates to rollers or the Kinetic Rock and Roll trainer?
very good video, thanks! ...exactly what I thought about a few times but never could test (no plate at my LBS or my friends)
Thanks for the video. I’ve been wondering about these more and more as the Norwegian winter closes in on us here.
So it sounds like we need a handle bar mounted lockout remote to lock the rocker plate for sprints the same as with suspension on mtbs.
As for the forward backwards movement of the cyclops rocker plate- I’ve seen clips of people making frames for their rollers to allow for-aft movement and they seem to like it. So it might not be so bad. Time will tell
No lockout needed. Proper spring setup is the key.
th-cam.com/video/gt2XO4NVZEo/w-d-xo.html
Agree, standing on a rocker plate just feels weird, the first time I thought I was going to go over the handlebars but seated it does feel more natural. I would love to see some study wrt the difference a rocker makes on frame stress since I am sure there must be some change. For me, in my head, it feels like a rocker relieves some of this stress but obviously, that is not very scientific ;)
Agree, definitely not for anything out of a the saddle. It is the complete opposite outdoor. Would be interesting see what a side to side moving plate would be like. On rollers the rear wheel does move side to side?
I don’t experience issues with the Tacx Neo as it does have a certain amount of built in flex. That along with a decent saddle is good enough for me. Your video further convinced me that rocker plates don’t really make it anymore realistic to road riding. The alternative would be rollers but then you have to think a lot more which when on an indoor trainer might not be the best.
Great review as always! One thing tough... You try to replicate the feeling you get riding outside but still you block your front wheel. My Rock and Roll comes with a front wheel adapter that makes the front steering very unstable. I have to work to keep it straight. When sprinting out of the saddle the technique is a little different than outside, I admit. I first push with my hand and when I pedal, the bicycle comes back to upright position. I'm doing this for 5 years now and it did not affected my outside technique because the bike responds different.
I know absolutely nothing about rocker plates but, looking at your outdoors (and skateboard explanation) vs indoor sprint movement, I can easily see the simple difference: Outdoors, the EFFECTIVE left/right pivot point is approximately 3 inches above the ground - as if your wheel is sitting on a small swing. Indoors, the ACTUAL pivot point is the rocker plate hinge which is about 4 inches below the bottom of your wheel.
You're welcome.
Thinking about things a bit more. A potential idea for anyone handy would be a plate that is suspended and allowed a small amount of dampened left right swing movement. Problem is that for a direct drive trainer, the true outdoors gyroscopic movement of the front and rear wheel is still missing to keep you centred and upright rather than a fixed trainer.
Does sprinting on rollers have the same problem? I assume not as the wheels are turning to give you gyroscope upright force.
It's almost impossible to sprint on rollers, out of the saddle. There's not enough resistance on most rollers for a start - but it's the weight shift and accelerations that will throw you off them. Sprinting on rollers is like sprinting on rollers... and walking on a tightrope for balance! :)
I made a really nice rocker for my Hammer, and still never really liked riding the thing. It did make things more tolerable for 2 plus hours though.
I bought a set of EMotion rollers and haven’t touched my Hammer since. It actually feels like riding my bike outside and you can sprint all out on them in the drops. If they came out with a good solid “smart” unit for them they would be perfect.
You can get the newly designed smart resistance for your rollers, but more to the point, you can also get the FFS (floating fork stand) to convert the rollers into a hybrid rocking trainer that actually produces the right motion. Something all these other rocker plates will never do.
www.insideride.com/buy/floating-fork-stand-ffs
I allow free float to the front wheel on my Kickr,this allows a significantly more natural feel with minimal fuss.
I’m on one side of the fence here on this one Shane...I hate the static feel.
neo's frame flex is enough for me
great video. was interested in this but really good info there particularly about sprinting
the question I want a answer to is this "does it get rid of saddle soreness for longer trainer sessions?" If it does, then it's a significant improvement. I have a hard time going longer than 65min on Zwift, since my butt starts to hurt. I do double metric centuries with ZERO saddle issues out on the road, but going 2 hours on Zwift my bottom says "no way".
I guess the only thing that comes close to natural are rollers. With Elite Quick Motion rollers or the original InsideRide E-motion rollers, I feel like I'm riding a bike, not a trainer and you can actually sprint on those. But smart rollers are now an option.
Great objective video as always Shane, I have the original Kickr and I have always found I need to get out of the saddle a fair bit to prevent any numbness or pain (i don’t suffer at all outside on the same bike). I guess the rocker plate might alleviate that and give me a more comfortable ride as it has that natural side to side movement whilst seated you demonstrated.
Great video Shane! As a triathlete myself, I didn't find the need for it in the triathlon community. The rockrs seems to be popping up from cyclists who are looking to duplicate the side to side movement you see when sprinting or climbing outdoor. Something triathletes don't do. At least that's my obsevation. Maybe eventually they will adopt it but they are usually first to jump on things like this.
Actually, based on discussions with Kinetic, they say that many of their happy clients are long range Tri athletes. They like the slight motion for improving seated comfort, especially for time in the aero bars. That mirrors the comments of most of the FB RP group stating seated comfort as the primary benefit to the rocker.
So what we really need is to balance the rocker plate on a point at the cg of the bike/rider. Tough ask since the CG moves as you pedal and shift your weight about. Worse there is no angular momentum from the spinning wheels keeping it upright so you're going to tip over. How about a large 4 propeller drone with gyros that you mount the entire system on. So, you float in the air while you pedal the trainer. The gyros take info from the virtual ride /smart trainer and can control pitch and roll and also provide the virtual angular momentum of your spinning wheels. It's going to need A/C power, quite a bit of it, and will be loud.
Bum ache is definitely a thing indoors , I wonder if the answer to that is just some dense foam type material under the trainer?. Rocker plates aren’t for me but neither is saddle soreness but very interesting to watch the development 👍🏻
If you have a modern Kicker and can justify it the Climb helps alot to as your pressure points are changing as the bike inclines and declines.
peebee1357 I’ve tried it. The foam is nice to begin (3-4cm) but compresses over time.
What about the cycling treadmill? Too expensive for the average person at the moment but would it more accurately simulate outdoor riding with out of the saddle sprints?
Not really... due to the accelerations being limited. You can't "JUMP" out of the saddle and put out maximum power on the Magnus.
Nice analogy with skateboarding. Saris imo is making a white elephant. Wahoo & climb has far more application.
I just needed an excuse to go for a skate around the block. :)
interesting, your knees are in. my knees tend to flare out at times, and I need to pull it in.
So, we should just get a Tacx Magnum? (And sell a few organs...)
Was that backwards California t-shirt just to see if we were paying attention? I was looking to see if Hitchcock was also featured in a brief cameo.
Seems like the rear wheel needs to slide laterally, slightly
Yep! I pointed the wrong way towards Chad's video on screen.... so I flippedllama and bingo! Fixed! ;)
So really what you want is some kind of "Power Rocker Motion Rollers" contraption. I'll watch this space...
What would need to be "powered"?
You shook me all night long...
Sounds like if you do something like sweet spot training, rocker plates are good. Sprinting indoors is just weird overall, in my opinion.
Only way to achieve it is with an active system, which would be way overcomplicated. That or some system with rollers.
Any technique to learning the correct way to move the bike on the road out of the saddle same as your demo. A problem I have doing it properly even though it looks easy.
Shane, I see lifeline have delivered a sensible priced rocker plate. Have you tried it yet?
I don't think I'll loop back to rockers any time soon unless there's something really interestingly different. The Saris MP1 was an example.
What if we had a rocker plate with no spring or damping, just soft bumpers and the either end of the lean angle. Then use a large flywheel attached to the plate that resists motion like two spinning wheels outside.
It seems your biggest complaint is the lack of sideways movement especially in the sprint. I think to achieve more of what you are wanting you need the gap between the top and lower rocker plate to much be larger between plates, say 350mm in the centre. When leaning to one side the plates are only say 50mm apart, thuis creating a larger angle of lean.
Then the last question would be regarding what stresses are on the bike frame when these angles are increased, would they be acceptable.
RE: Bike stress. Nobody knows until we measure it, one day. My guess is since we're not seeing snapped bikes (on rocker, or rigid setups), it's no more of an issue than the stresses they're put though outside.
Gyroscopic effect of a spinning wheel, so when outdoors moving means the bike wants to stand upright. NOT fall over. Also when on the road the front wheel would draw an elongated S shape with the lateral movement, the rear would also do this. This is not possible to recreate on a rocker plate without horizontal left right movement along with tilt.
I made the exact same one you have there and I Find it works realy well, I have my foam blocks all the way out to the edge and i find it works best there, also i found you want you frame of the bike right on top of the hinge, and i have a wahoo kickr on mine :) hope this helps
Analyzing the video, it looks like the pivot point is more like at the bottom bracket or the wheel axles.
I wonder if something made to pivot much higher like that would feel more natural... would be really weird/hard to build, but I kinda wanna try it sometime... just gotta find the time :(
I am testing a rig that includes adjustable pivot height. I have used a lower pivot for years with decent success. But from riding outside this year I am curious to see how much difference some heights will make.
I will report my results in the Rocker Plate group once I have them. I won't be surprised to see that a pivot a few inches above "the ground" is actually what replicates the real feel outside better.
More of a "sling/swing" type setup where the wheel/trainer can rotate a bit under as a wheel does outdoor, with the center of rotation more in line with just under your wheel hubs. But you would need a serious counterbalance with the swinging weight of any decent trainer --- those things aren't light.
I think a parabolic rail system to allow the trainer to ride side to side ..... somebody build that :)
I am looking at a simple axis for starters. My design allows testing of pivot from below to well above the "ground". My basic aim is to determine the preferred axis height for best feel. Depending on those results, a particular design may be need to position the axis for proper feel. I don't anticipate too much trouble unless it is best up close to the hub height (which I doubt).
I expect the best to be a few inches above ground/tire contact. Our bikes tend to float a bit on the road, so the simple "tires pivot on the ground" idea may well be the "wrong" answer for a rocker.
Shane these are never going to work like on the road irrospective of what's used air cushions, foam, springs balls etc. To produce movement in the opposite direction maybe you have to introduce servo's and switches to create that movement.
Yeah sk8er boi!
You rock!
No, I wiggle... it... just a little bit. :)
Have you felt you've had to adjust workout watts whilst on the rocket plate? Is there a loss of power transfer at all - ie having to knock TR or Zwift down from 100% to say 95%?
Nope
@@gplama thanks Shane
Has anyone thought to build a rocker setup without the foam such that it does not return to vertical? The bike would naturally want to tip to one side or the other. It'd be up to the rider to balance - as you would on rollers.
Though, without the front wheel turning, I wonder if that would even be possible.
So on your channel I think I've seen you ride a bike 1) outdoors 2) on a treadmill 3) on rollers 4) on a indoor trainer on "rocker plates" and 5) on a indoor trainer NO "rocker plates". Seems to me that the order I listed them is the order in which they "simulate" outdoors. Obviously 1=1 but from your experience is 2 closest to 1, etc.? And in particular, how do rollers function out of the saddle versus outdoors versus rocker plates?
That's all too complicated. Outside is real. The rest are just other forms of training.
I've never ridden a cycling treadmill but have ridden rollers for decades. I just can't stand riding a fixed-position bike on a trainer. It just doesn't feel "natural" to me. I currently have the Inside Ride E-Motion rollers and they've been the best cycling purchase I ever made! They're quality built and feel the closest to riding outside I've experienced indoors. Plus, I actually like the little bit of mental engagement rollers require; helps make the time go by quicker. Yes, direct-drive smart trainers have benefits, but for me, I prefer an indoor setup that's actually enjoyable to ride.
Fair enough and I can gleam some clues from your other replies even in this thread. I've only done 1 and 5. Much prefer 1 to 5 and find that 5 is only bearable with Zwift.
Watching videos i guess treadmill or example Tacx Magnum is only device where you can reach natural feeling riding out of the saddle?.
Almost. There's still no real acceleration on the Magnum, it's more a balancing act to keep smooth on the bike.
Needs a little bit complicated solution to build perfect rocker plate. Because bike is little bit zigzagging like you demonstrate, it needs a rollers under a plate to make it slide side to side too, not just a hinge. But i guess that goes too scientific.
See, I don't understand why someone hasn't referenced the full motion roller design where you have wheels to accomodate the for/aft movement, in addition to the side to side motion. You wouldn't really need that much for/aft motion to add that natural feel of the bike.
Shane actually mentions and shows the CycleOps "Thing" (with him riding it) in this very video.
Based on my own testing, the fore-aft motion is a worthwhile addition and improves the overall feel of the rocker plate experience.
Well the 'thing' seems to have quite a bit of spring back by the looks of it, to me, looks to be a different animal than what the rollers are...the weight of that thing appears ungainly on the video.
It is the same concept as the Inside Ride E-Motion rollers. You correctly identify weight being an issue.
Extra mass is always a problem when any direction changes are desired. They are especially so in this instance since the changes are frequent and short distance. I made DIY motion rollers and the extra weight of the rollers, motion sled and the other accessories I added to my setup notably impact the responsiveness of the fore-aft motion.
Ideally, we want to have a low mass for both the left-right and fore-aft motions. I am working on a refined concept of the various motion rockers and motion rollers I have built over the years. I am experimenting with L-R pivot location and minimal structure to keep the overall mass down. Hopefully I can improve the feel with more "snap" in the fore-aft movement in particular.
Thanks for the reply Chad. Pretty interesting stuff these engineering innovations.
Have you done a review of the InsideRide KICKR E-Flex Motion System? I would like to see your opinion of the side to side motion on this rocker system.
The owner of that company, Larry Papadopoulos, has taken it upon himself to attack me, my content, this channel, as he didn't like what I said about rollers. I commonly state they're good for leg speed and warm-ups, but I'd choose a smart trainer over rollers for indoor riding/training. They make rollers. He has a commercial interest in selling rollers. He uses screen name "Leroy People". If I am to cover any of their products on here, it's going to take him to change his ways.
Great videos Shane but got to disagree on some aspects of indoor training and the rocker plates.
Firstly in my experience specific sessions indoors work for me and always have. They translate very good to my outdoor riding with the local chain gangs.
Yup the out of saddle aspect of the rocker plate isn’t ideal but still better than having my expensive carbon frame locked in a fixed position on my Kickr.
Nowhere for that force to go when doing big torque sessions and the frame gets a pounding despite what anyone says.
So I would rather have the rocker plate than not
What if you have a switch on the seat so when you leave the saddle it locks the rocker
Locking the rocker while standing defeats its whole purpose.
The solution here is proper spring setup (i.e. lower centering force).
I will do a video soon showing how light I have my setup and you can already see how well it works in the videos I linked here in other replies.
I think this unnatural movement could be removed by having the balls situated under the wheel, rather than at the sides, this makes the natural position of the plate not level. The spinning of the back wheel and fly wheel on the turbo should provide enough force to allow you to balance.
I wonder if you could get around the physics of this with practice... Outdoors, when you apply force to the pedal you need to shift weight to keep the centre of mass over the bike or you fall over. On the trainer, even on a rocker plate (or similar), the bike doesn't fall so you don't *have to* shift weight to maintain balance, like you said. But I guess you could still consciously train yourself to shift the bike to simulate this. The question is, why bother...? It's artificial and it's an unnatural skill you'd need to train. I've never ridden on a rocker so I don't know how easy or difficult it is to consciously move the bike the same way it would naturally move side to side on the road.
Also, does the rocker plate alleviate more pressure (i.e. fix saddle soreness more) than just getting up out of the saddle every 10 minutes for a couple of pedal strokes? I ride rollers and my rear gets pretty sore sometimes, so I just stand up occasionally. This seems like a really complicated fix where there's a simpler alternative.
Nailed it. The issue I have as an experienced cyclist - is having to 'relearn' anything. That process alone means it's not like outside, and really no use to me to be honest. CycleOps have data on the saddle pressure being a lot less on their plate, I hope they publish that as it'll give more cred to the primary reason you'd buy their unit (or make one at home).
I'm not totally convinced that the main issue is relearning a technique - there are a number of issues, hardware and wetware related, most of which have been better dealt with by Chad and others than i'll probably manage here. One thing that comes out of your videos (and most of the other ones i've seen) is how much leverage is being put into 'rocking' when outside to maintain balance - through the bars and with the body - and how little is being used when on a rocker plate. Have a look at the first outside example - climbing out of the saddle on the drops - and how the arms and whole body is being used to swing the bike from side to side. Compare that with the (lack of) arm and body movement when on the rocker plates. It feels natural outside when you've ridden for any length of time, but completely forgotten when inside.
There is also the issue of resistance and damping on the plates - as people have mentioned many times, most rocker plates seem to be massively over resistive to motion. That's partly inevitable as there is no speed related self-righting with the plate as you would get outside or on rollers, and so you need a certain minimum amount to stop the bike permanently falling over (when using spring/tube resistance), and this does effect the technique used. That said, most people just seem to mash their feet down and then get surprised the bike isn't somehow magically counter balancing. GIGO. There are designs out there that use wide multi-radius curved 'feet' that seem to potentially suffer slightly less in this regard than the central pivot design but i've not made one/tried them yet.
Clearly they're a work in progress and not without problems, but it also seems to be necessary to get people to realise how they already ride outside and apply some of those already learned techniques inside - there's still a reasonable amount in common despite several major differences. My 2p worth anyway - cheers for the vid Shane.
Good video Shane. My thoughts too, Alex. SOOOOO??? IS the answer a "split" of sorts? Maybe work on something with less motion, or different motion, or maybe just some flexibility to help with saddle pressure. That should be simpler, less cost, easier to design, maybe more market share? And then the other "split" would be to pursue the full on total complete integration of outside feel inside? Just a thought...
A well designed rocker should allow the bike to fall somewhat - although not to the extent that would happen outside - but you can have damping and end-stops to stop that being a binary lurch one way or another. In that sense there is no new technique to learn - if you stamp on the left pedal you will have to pull the bike right to stop the thing rotating fully over, and vice versa. Many folk seem to forget how they ride outside, stamp on one side and little else - they swing to that side, don't like and crank up the resistance to stop the feeling of tipping so fast. Get the design and resistance right and you can more or less ride like outside - not entirely the same but then if I rode my rollers like I do IRL then i'd end up on my arse far more often as well. That roller skill is something I can improve but it's also *different* and harder work than normal riding.
Rockers clearly aren't for everyone, nor have the designs being ironed out AFAIK, but people really seem to be missing the point on the technique and how different it is (or not) from normal riding.
Eventually when human populations grow beyond measure , and the road ceases to be a road ,is the day I’ll go virtual trainer
Until that time .., it’s seems rather pointless to recreate a road experience when there is no altitude
There's obvious benefits in fitness and strength. Along with other aspects as time, location, weather.
It's almost comical to see these rockers in action. They all have the same fatal flaw.
Anyone interested in the promise of natural motion on a fixed trainer should look at FFS (floating fork stand) which converts the E-motion rollers into a next-gen rocker. It actually does what all these weird rocker plates are trying to do.
www.insideride.com/buy/floating-fork-stand-ffs
If you're going to advertise on my channel.... you have to at least send me the product! :)
@@gplama Sure, be happy to. Let me know how to arrange it.
................ or you could ride ........er........outside?
Mate.... this is like coming to a fairy party dressed as Batman.There's a time and place, Batman. This isn't it.... and that part of the video where I am riding outside. That's riding outside. They're not mutually exclusive. People do both. The videos I post are about both. It's all good.
@Mark. Having 4-5 months of snow makes outdoor riding much less appealing during that time.
....... twas but a jest......I ride on Zwift throughout the bleak mid winter and love it. Just seems to be getting way too obsessive. Indoors is indoors. Outside will (I hope and pray) always be real!