rocker plates + kickr + kickr climb + vr goggles + 360° video = (nearly) total immersion! one could even enhance this experience with some kind of vibrating rocker plates to simulate the variation in tarmac quality.
good use of the cameras to show the movement, especially out on the road, showed how different real life movement is to these plates. I've used pilates balance "disks/half balls" under the feet of my trainer (so three disks, two under each back foot, one under front bar of a Tacx Flow), weird sensation but did get more movement than a single rocker plate, but gone back to trainer on the floor as didn't feel it made a massive difference.
Thanks for the review Shane. I do hope that you review other Rockers. The Rocker in the review needs some design changes to be an effective Rocker. Suspension and trainer retention to the top plate will allow you to have a better experience with Rockers. I can't even think of riding my Kickr without my Rocker. Comfort level on longer than 1 hour rides sold me on my first Rocker ride. Looking forward to all of your reviews, and more Rocker reviews. Cheers!!
Nicely done, Shane. Excellent analysis. Thanks for relieving some of our fears about bike breakage on the trainer. Look forward to the next experiment.
Good video (as ever. You have a great affinity with this) Re sprints and frame flex. This week I watched, at track training, a few AAA+++ sprinters (world champ level). When they got into sprinting the bikes looked like a noodle, so much power in each stroke that the bike had twist and was binding up like i've never seen.
I had the first generation of the Kickr until it packed up, bought a TacX neo and you get this rocker feel built in, a much nicer feel then riding a brick fence feel.
Shane.....first loved the twisted sister intro. Second, content has been outstanding lately. Thanks for finding new points of view or interesting new products. And mixing short with long videos. I've started to take a trainer class at my local BS tomtake my novice skills to the next level so your channel is even more relevant to me now. Thanks. Keep it up. Let me know when you are in NYC next time... beers on me.
Having just built a home made rocker plate I am seeing all of the issues regarding side to side motion. I think the main issue is the lack of counter steering coupled with the lowering of the centre of gravity with the addition to a turbo trainer. I think this is why when it was bolted to the climber you got a more natural feel. By using two anchor points through the fork you increased the lateral forces applied making it easier to apply a more correct side to side motion compared with the central contact point of a tire.
A most excellent review . Banging my head about in the mosh pit of bogus designs frustrates me like a twisted sister. Close enough. I'm leaning towards a rocker plate and angling in a Kickr Climb to the mix would elevate my indoor riding to new heights. Party On Shane
Have seen demos of rocker plates with much more movement. So many designs popping up around the net in the last few weeks. Very interested in a rocker plate as I get knee pain on the turbo on the same bike that I have no problem with outdoors. I've started to put this down to being in that locked in position.
Shane I really appreciate all the work you put into these videos. As one who makes a few videos, I try to keep things simple, but yours makes for great viewership. Fantastic! I spend more time on writing good product reviews and then throw the videos in there. We should team up sometime. Next time you're in the State you need to make your way to Austin, Texas. This is probably the best overall rocker plate video I have seen. Lots of really good intel.
Shane - please test it on a "long" ride...does it improve the seat pain? I get seat pain all the time on the trainer...almost never get it on the road (well...maybe first couple weeks...) Gr8 vid as usual!!
Outdoor we have momentum and giro effect. Back then when I started training indoor with the kickr I would get painful around the sitbone area because it's all rigid, so I got a Kinetic Rock'n'Roll (yeah from smart trainer to turbo). I got it for the damping not for the rocking design. Sitting back into the saddle felt less harsh after out of saddle efforts. The tiny left-right gives under the crouch also lessen sitbone sore. What it advertised though, that natural rocking sensation of sprinting, was never natural and difficult to implement, and actually wasting energy. Outdoor sprinting we forcefully swing the bike away from the leg that's doing the downward stroke, actually creating watts with our upper body. With the rocker, the bike wants to fall to the downward stroking leg. Trying to push the bike away doesn't work because we are up in the air. Try doing 'microburst' on it, adds more difficulty.. Eventually I realized that to reduce saddle sore all it took was more indoor hours, with the right saddle and pants. So now I can ride indoor 3 hrs with the kickr with bearable sitbone sore. I don't do that very often because most workouts are less than 1.5-2hrs. So the Kinetic is there collecting dust.
do you think, outdoors, we can do what you say (forcefully swing bike away from leg doing downward action) because of the outdoor forces we can kind of stand against, either centripital or centrifugal (whatever) , or, just forward momentum..or all three?
i saw a pretty fancy one using an axel in the middle and two small inflatable balls, and you change the bobbing amount based on the pressure in the balls
The rocket I made has a significantly larger range of motion. Once I “let” myself ride and swing my bike like I do outdoors, it swings pretty close to how it does outdoors. I think the rocker you are using is just limited in range of motion and the foam is a good amount stiffer than many out there.
You video raises some interesting points regarding the experience. Some folks, me included, suspect that non-rocking trainer riding may cause additional stresses on some joints of the body. So rocking even with its "experience" limitation could be a total plus if it alleviates aches and pains. I suspect that some gurus on pro teams might have more insight in this regard. A quick google scholar search did not yield anything. As you point out, the forces involved in a real ride are complex and you even suggest that different mechanical regimes might be needed for different riding regimes. These observations suggest that a mechanical passive system and especially a simple one will not feel real. The out of the saddle experience on the road also involves synchronized steering changes. I find the absence of steering effects also troubling. I now wonder if allowing steering even if not "connected" to anything would also improve the experience.
Shane, I can't remember if you've ever tried the Kurt Kinetic Rock n Roll. I'd love to get your feedback on how that experience will compare to a proper rocker plate.
Shane, related more to power meters: does a rocker plate affect the indoor readings from the Rotor 2inpower? I remember both you and Ray found a discrepancy riding indoors. Would a rocker plate have and influence and make it overread less indoors?
I'm looking into these more for comfort than realism. Staying on the bike for 3 hours indoors is much of a PITA (not just more boring but real PITA) than doing a 6 hour ride outside, at least for me. Do you think these rocker plates make things easier in that respect? Cheers!
I fully claim that comfort is one primary benefit to a proper rocker. Even adding a mild amount of angular float can make a HUGE difference when it comes to medium and longer rides. I have used my rockers for a few 5+ hour over century rides on Zwift and plenty more in the 3-4 hour range. It's possible to do that without a rocker, but not with the same level of comfort.
Looking at the minimal effect the rocker has on normal steady state riding makes me think the static bike isn't what's causing the PITA. Indoor trainers hurt the rear a lot more because you're consistently in the one position the whole time. Outdoors, you're out of the saddle here and there, you're shifting around, stopping at lights. There's more micro-relief happening.
Don't forget about the actual angle changes we experience on every bike ride. Change lanes... requires a lean. Roll through a turn... requires a lean. Reach for a bottle... likely results in a lean. Reach for a gel in the jersey... likely results in a lean. And many more like that, which all lead to subtle changes in saddle position and pressure. Allowing the bike to float a bit on a rocker provides a similar relief.
Very interesting thanks Shane. I wonder if the full length rocker plate would help with the sideways movement for the front of the bike. Or perhaps a wheel block with a slightly rounded bottom.
and what you were saying about moving forwards and backwards, surely that is the same the taxc galaxia rollers that have the rockers under the rear wheel - they mean that the bike can move forwards and backwards a little bit to make it feel for natural
The fore-aft movement is also a key part of the InRide Emotion rollers. It is an interesting option and a great feel based on the DIY motion rollers I made, before making rockers.
Don't know if this has come up yet but what about the Kinetic Rock and Roll | Smart which looks like it does all that you're trying to achieve? maybe someone has already mentioned this, always good to watch your blogs.
I made my first rocker over 2 years ago, when the only Rock and Roll trainer was the fluid version. I already owned a rigid Road Machine, and didn't fancy paying $400 to buy a R&R frame (Kinetic actually sells it as an upgrade accessory). So I made a rocker to replace that dedicated frame. Worked great and cost less than $100 in parts. Then with the advent of smart trainers and especially wheel-off versions, my universal rocker plate was useful for any trainer. So it is great to have the ability to use any and all trainers with a rocker plate, in stead of being locked into a single trainer.
Yay a video posted in Australian time :) that looks so unnerving. I'm pretty funny making trainers more life like but I guess these are not made for me. I can just not get into trainers :(
I believe the rocker plates require a hard divider located in the area where the wheel touches the ground. This will prevent a push on a pedal on one side to be distributed between the two sides of the rocker. On the road this does not happen because wheel is the single contact point. With this device though every pedal push is distributed between the two points of contract which emulates more a tricycle. If there is a hard divider in the middle emulates the wheel point of contract and makes the effort affect only the side of the pushed pedal. Adding the climbing device make it guide the bike movement and it mitigates the lack of single contact point at the back end.
starting at 4:15 is why I follow you so religiously; common sense analysis, aka how does this compare to "real-world" feel? Completely agree there isn't the full range of motion & that may/maynot be an issue. But a point I do think your on the verge of, is the "when & where"...when does tilt start (& specifically which direction does it go) during the motion. Starting at 5:45 you can see where the rocker plate allows tilt to the left or right that corresponds with THAT same side's pedal being pushed down. This is the opposite outside, which you started to allude to & couldn't quite put your finger on it at @7:02. Part of it, is the axis at which the tilt happens (the where)... real world (outdoors), the lateral tilt axis is going to be at or slightly above the bb & hubs. The baseline center is going to be center of mass (primarily body weight, so imagine a center-line that extends up & down through the center of your torso). In a sprint, your handlebars/seat/toptube will roll to the left as my right pedal goes through its downward motion; while at that same time the bottom of the wheels will kick out slightly to the right (viceversa for the left pedal stroke). The axis that the bike tilts is more in the center of the bike (or as I said near the hubs), NOT an axis located at the base of the wheels (or in some cases, a bit lower than that) for rocker plates. I think in a way, that would define that "squirm" feel, which I thought was a good choice of words to describe the different feel between the two (especially when adding the other dimension of front-to-back motion at the same time). An rotational axis closer to the hub height would provide a more outdoor/natural feel, but as you said I think this has a more-real element than a completely fixed position. As you sort of closed out your video, I also think the design & support of the side resistance materials makes a difference. There's a youtuber named Chad McNeese who has seemed to have worked out a pretty good rubber/foam density configuration & he is doing a great job really leading the charge on this whole rocker plate movement it's design element. I love to see it & think it's great...my own personal hesitation right now is I am planning to wait on strapping my Kickr Snap into one until my warranty is up, per Wahoo's cust. service dept telling me that use of the devices would most likely void warranty (as they can't control, especially for homemade units, the quality control or specs that would potentially put torsional stress/affect the trainers). Super glad to see you use it with the Climb!!! It was more stable than I thought & your comments were very encouraging...for me personally, this is where I can really see the benefit, as out of the saddle in a climb is where I tend to "dance" or really get my side-to-side movement outside. GREAT VID! RIDE ON, Lama, ride on!!!
yeah... BUT you missed the perfect green screen opportunity! I could imagine you sprint with the background world rocking 90 degrees in both directions!! wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!
A lot covered but I wonder what the difference in noise is. The rocker plate looks as a resonance box. How much louder will it be on different trainers and specifically on the quieter ones. Neo and Kicker, but it could be interesting on the cheaper smart ones as well.
Repeated my reply to a similar question by another poster. The specific design of a rocker influences how it handles sound. Some (many of the tennis ball versions with no rigid center support) do dampen the sound and vibrations. Some people like them for upper level locations to minimize transmission to other floors. Other designs with rigid center supports and hinges, along with some of the full length rockers, actually increase sound and vibration. People are working to understand the cause and solutions. There are applications using rubber and carpet to damp the sound in those cases. It's a peripheral consideration for many, but is very important for some people. I expect this will be an attribute worthy of comparison when we start seeing commercial units for sale.
Eli Douek, yes there are many ways to change (dare I say fix) the ride of the BOB. 1. Move them more towards the center, increases leverage. 2. The above also creates an early angle stop when the foam reaches solid height. 3. Cutting them to smaller size also makes the rocker more active. I used a combo of those to perfect the feel of my rockers,for seated, standing, and sprinting efforts.
I don't see rocker plates coming close to the feel of the real world. I think the only reason I'd get one is for comfort. Naturally we move a lot out doors. All the micro moments during a real world ride gives constant pressure relief. If it means longer rides and a happier gooch indoors then it's a must have.
Feel is very subjective to spring setup. This one is not great and can be greatly improved. My rockers, and feedback from friends and others who have built my design show much close feel to outside. It will likely never match real riding, but I think I have it very close and close enough to make a HUGE difference in the indoor cycling experience.
The kinetic rocking trainer comes with a wheel block that rotates. It gives that “loose” front end that makes the rocking feel more real. Try the “Bob” with the kinetics rotating wheel block. It’s not the poor rocking motion of the bob thats killing the realism, it’s the stationary front wheel. Let us know!
Not much point when you can go around hairpin bends at 50mph with no collision detection. You'd be at a serious disadvantage in racing :D Not much point steering if you can't crash! They would have to introduce braking - an analogue lever attached to your bar that connects to your device that's running the mobile link app. I'm all for real ride feel but trying to introduce steering, braking, collision/crashing would mean a complete redesign of the game - aint gonna happen :)
skullmanUK , you are jumping way ahead. The first implementation could simply be to allow leaning (read by the phone). It could select the direction while in turn zones, so you can pic on the bike, instead of using a keyboard or the mobile link app. If they ever introduce lane selection options, the lean could work for that too. So it doesn't have to go from nothing all the way to reality. It's an idea to add some more interaction with the game via the bike..
Perfect job Shane. I was waiting to see a REAL "how does it feel" video as opposed to some builder touting his own design. I don't have problems sitting on the bike inside, of course I rarely ride longer than an hour and some. What I do notice is that my outdoor sprint early in the season feels odd. I'm doing the INDOOR sprint outside, where I am essentially sprinting without rocking, until I get enough outside miles in to swing free again. Sadly it seems to repeat each winter. I am hoping someone does some serious analysis and engineers something that comes closer to outdoor sprinting. So far, I haven't seen anything even remotely close. Might be a difficult task. OR you might need to get some feedback into the swing resistance system. Like the Climb takes it's clues from the Kickr, maybe we need the rocker plates resistance/springs to adjusted also by some feedback...that sounds expensive... hmmmmm...
Your comments on the odd transition indoor season to outdoor season are part of the reason I made my first rocker. You ask for serious analysis and engineering... and precisely what I have done with dozens of rockers I have built in the last 2.5 years. It is in essence, easy. But the Devil is in the details. Getting the right motion takes the right spring setup. I believe I have hit on the right ability to adjust for new riders up to advanced riders and a range of weights and styles. I am shipping a brand new Rockit Launcher for Shane to ride and review. I will help him learn how it works and adjust it to hit his preferred setup. I know its just a "builder's video" but mine shows a range of riding situations, including a 1200w sprint. So, I fully know what you and Shane seek is very possible because I've already done it. th-cam.com/video/gt2XO4NVZEo/w-d-xo.html
Shane, probably a weird question but nevertheless, it'd be helpful for me. With that setup (without the rocker plates - nice idea but it still needs some work) what is the total length from the front of the kickr climb to the end of the kicker 17/18? I'm trying to get an idea to see if it fits my living room. Thanks in advance
It's more of a simulation and is better than the rigid feel. I've it Seem a couple if fixed trainers that roll on an axis much like the way an airplane does. It's coming soon a full 3d simulated ride with software that mimics roads surfaces. Can only.imagine riding cobbles and getting that feeling via the trainer.
Just my observations. An issue may be when you're sprinting on the road you turn your handle bars which changes your cg and helps tilt the bike against the gyroscopic precession of the wheels. When you're on the trainer the wheels don't really move, as you mentioned. Probably a smaller reason but worth considering, you're used to not rocking when riding indoors.
Chad McNeese not really turning forces. I’m talking about balance. Because the forks are pointed forwards slightly, when you turn the handle bars the front wheel moves off centre. Since it’s off centre the cg changes (and yes, also turning forces) and then you lean. Look at people when they sprint. Their wheel moves side to side to assist in leaning the bike. But I agree with you. The springs will need to be dampened more but putting the front wheel on a small pivoting plate will allow for less dampened springs and less unwanted rocking when in steady state.
Actual steering on a bike is a mix if bike lean and handle bar turning. How much of each is required varies with bike speed and intended rate of direction change. The faster you go, the more you lean the bike as opposed to turning the bars, and vice versa for slower. I have great luck with my rear-only rocker and front tire on a flat riser. The tire and wheel roll left and right (just like outside) so it works perfectly well.
The only way to get unrestricted indoor movement - reactive, smart treadmill the size of your entire garage?! Hopefully that's enough leeway for a full on sprint, I'm happy to test out any free prototypes...
One of the huge, hugely expensive cycling versions of a treadmill is probably the only way an "indoor" experience will approximate realism. Then again, who knows...maybe a Kickr Climb and a "Kicker Rock" mounted to front and rear QR's would do the job all on a board with rollers allowing 2-3cm's of back and forth motion. I use stationary trainers as they are great for structured workouts. I'm not expecting them to provide realism. That said, seeing what people come up with is interesting.
My goal is to take the best of all sources (rigid trainers, motion rollers, treadmills, pitch control, etc.) and wrap it into the ultimate indoor training and riding setup. Freedom to rock, roll, translate with just enough control to make it easier and more predictable than rollers or a treadmill. We are still in the early days and I expect we will see some very great solutions as we continue to push the design and development process forward.
I don't get why it has to be so complicated. I just cut a 3 by 3 piece of 3/4 plywood( the floor will serve as the other board, lol) I already had and screwed on a 2 by 2 right down the middle. I bought a foam mat at Walmart for 5 bucks...some boat seat pad thingy! It was about 1 inch thick so I cut it up into 3"x3" blocks. I stacked them so I had 4 double blocks, so 2" blocks. I glued them together put them under the board about half way to the edge and about 6" from the front and rear on both sides. I haven't mounted my Kickr Snap yet, but not sure I get that part either. I rode for a bit and it doesn't turn over, in fact it doesn't even move at all. I got some of those furniture cups to put the front legs in. I figure I'll maybe mount the back with some plumbers tape and a couple of screws just to be sure. Actually just drilling holes to thread some zip ties through would probably be easier. When I need to move it just clip em and reinstall! Performance wise it feels really natural and even has a little circular shimmy to it and not just a rocking movement. I have 8 bucks in my rocker plate! Even if you had to buy plywood, it would still be less than $25. I can't imagine moving one around that is made with 2 pieces. It's heavy enough with one. It's not pretty, but it's in the basement!
Awesome video Shane, I always wondered what they would be like. In fairness, look at video of a top pro road sprinter and the bike doesn't rock much all that much from side to side. Still not convinced, look at a top track sprinter, the bike doesn't rock at all. That's part of the technique of becoming a good sprinter. So maybe the other side of the coin is a relatively fixed trainer is indeed good for sprint training in learning how to get big power out (2000+ W in the case of a trackie) without getting the bike all tangled up? BTW fantastic editing Lama. I liked that out the front camera mount and the video was cut brilliantly. I appreciate the effort you go to with these videos.
You think so Shane? I guess it's subjective as I would say that's exactly my point, what would be the average angle, +/- 10 degrees? Sure different sprinters have different techniques and it's not difficult to cherry pick extremes, but most don't move all that much in the grand scheme of things in my opinion. Certainly within the capable range of some form of simulation anyway. Track? Just bought up something off the top of my head, last Olympic games. Zero movement. th-cam.com/video/iMbwSnxhDOc/w-d-xo.html I recall seeing a photo of myself crossing the line in a road sprint and the bike was damned near 45 degrees! I had no idea I could get a bike so tangled up :P ... I did win however ;)
Shorter cranks.... much higher RPM on the track... and when they crank the bikes from lower speeds/RPM (not from a standing start, that's up and down), they're still moving the bike side to side. I'd need to get some cameras out on the bike to know what the exact movement would be. More than the BOB plate offered that's for sure.
If we could only have the e-motion rollers have a kickr & kickr climb built in, it would be great! After using Krietlers for years then going to the e-motions it was a drastic change. I love my kickr but nothing compares to racing on Zwift with rollers. No rocker plates needed!
Ed Burgess Loving my emotion with smart controller as well. They just feel amazing. Like to see Lama get his hands on a pair to review. I'd also like to see a modified floating fork stand that can raise the front to simulate climbing. To be honest though I'd likely only use that option a few times and then put it away as things just feel so good as is.
Thanks for the video Shane. An important factor is that the trainer weighs 21kg. Whereas on the road there is nothing weighing down your back wheel. From observation there is a bit of a snaking motion in sprinting rather than direct side-2-side motion.
“Keep the inner workings under wraps” OOKAAAAY, very cloak and dagger stuff.... those two pieces of wood and foam....did you sign a nda before you got that thing?
Hi Shane, do you think the rocker plate adds any comfort to your experience on the bike due to the movement? I can manage about 3hrs on my KICKR before my arse is screaming, where as outdoors that’s not a problem, I think it’s due the bike being fixed in place, any thoughts? Keep up the great work..Ride On!👍🏽
Actually bikes don’t want to fall over at speed, due to the rotational inertia of the wheels they would actually stay upright with no one riding it on a smooth, level surface. When sprinting bikes don’t rock as much as you think, they also move side to side, it’s a translational movement more than rotational. The only thing that simulates that is the awesome Tacx treadmill thing I saw your great video on
Perhaps some sort of shock lockout, like on a mountain bike, could work? Then you flick the handle and lock out the rocker when doing steady efforts, and unluck it for sprints and climbing. I'm not sure how to implement this in practice, but someone might be able to make it work...
I lockout is a possibility. I would actually prefer a dual rate spring setup. One for firm, minimal rock (as I think some rock is always a good thing, especially for extended seated efforts), and another for looser feel for standing and sprints.
Starting at 4:29, can you tell me how you set up your camera? What did you use to extend the gopro(?) out in front, and how was it attached to the bars?
On the GoPro 3Way mount. I should do a video on just that setup for the on-bike stuff. It's the mount, the stabilisation, and some tricks with the mic to get clear audio. Cool stuff (well, I think so) :)
do you feel that rocker needs a pivot point to eliminate that squirming motion? in real world riding the bike technically pivots its motion off the center point of the tire.
When i use my TT bike on the traniner and am in my aerobars i get a shoulder pain/ ache which i dont get outside. I feel like it could be the due to the front wheel being static and not free to move and therefore my shoulders fighting it a little. I wonder if the rocker plate for the whole bike and no just the rear. by adding even a slight degree of motion could help this.
Yes, a rocker really helps, even when seated and especially if you are in a TT/Tri position for extended periods. The subtle movement mimics the shifts outside and makes saddle comfort much better.
I wish rocker plates could work but I don't think they''ll ever be what we really want them to be. I made one before I knew they were a thing online. It was using thick bands as resistance and it had more movement, which is what I originally wanted. I found that it was difficult to have the bike remain upright without having to try to balance it (bad for knees and technique in general). Any stiffer and there wouldn't have been the movement I wanted (like in the Bob rocker). I think we underestimate the gyroscopic effect our wheels give in allowing the bike to remain upright when we want, and being able to throw it around when we want. The ideal indoor trainer would be a responsive treadmill.
Over the course of 2.5 years, with over 10,000 miles and 500 hours on my rockers.. and they work very, very well. I've built several for friends and they all agree. The mans for riders who built their built their own versions of my rocker also claim great improvements in feel and comfort. A proper spring setup in a rocker can do a good job mimicking the feel of a bike in motion on the road. But it takes some time to hit on that combo, not just one attempt. I went thru many iterations of rockers and spring setups before I got it right. th-cam.com/video/gt2XO4NVZEo/w-d-xo.html
Hi Shane. I would like to know what kind of setup and camera did you use for the ride outside. Those shots looked magnificent and the audio was great too!
It is hard to tell from the video, but it appears that there is no center support. Other designs have a pivot in the center that prevents the entire platform from moving up and down. The sides can move up and down, but only by pivoting along the center axis. This would I think be noticeable in the sprint test where it appeared that the entire platform was moving up and down instead of side to side. Outside when sprinting the bike cannot move up and down, but only side to side. You want to retain that for rocker plate designs.
Look at the middle axis of the deck. You will see 6 holes, 3 pairs, spaced in a way that matches the typical setup using pillow block bearings and a center pivot shaft. I am comfortable claiming it is very likely the same concept on display in dozens of other builds on the Zwift Rocker Plate Facebook group. The overly stiff springs are hiding the movement (not to mention the true potential) of the rocker.
In terms of the movement of the bike, how does it compare to rollers, compared to outside? perhaps if the plate rested on an elastic gel bladder, and had one for the front wheel as well, it'd have freer movement and account for twisting? something good and viscous so it's easy to clean up when you burst the bag.... Just saw another vid on this concept by david arthur. air balls. much cleaner. too bouncy? Actually thinking about it, surely it's the front end that swings about far more than the rear so perhaps people should be thinking about that a bit more? Perhaps you could get away with just a kinetic rock'n'roll with some kind of fancy rockerplate up front. Love to see where this goes.
Nothing really noticeable after an hour on this one. I guess it'd depend on the rider. I've been on the ergo for 10-12hrs for more than one stint and it's not all that bad even on a rigid trainer.
Chad does it work any better than the Bob Rocker shown in the video? I would then put the foam pieces closer to the center of the rocker as it would give it more movement as it could flex/move to a greater angle.
Note the inner location of my springs. I also have just 2" x 2" spring stacks, 2 at the front half, 2 at the back half. This leads to much more angular movement with much less force required. All that leads to a more realistic motion and feel. Additionally, I am now using inflatable balls that improve the feel even more than my spring stacks. My full design for anyone wanting to make one. zwiftinsider.com/rockit-launcher/
wondering if the tilt motion were a little "looser" and you were using a Snap. The spinning back wheel would provide the gyroscopic action to aid in keeping the bike vertical would help with the realism
I've used 2 different wheel-on and 2 different wheel-off trainers on my rockers over the years. The is no major difference other than the total weight added. The heavier wheel-off trainers do add to the polar moment of inertia, but the relatively low center of mass makes the overall impact to rocking minimal. I can't say that there is a huge difference on either setup in general use.
Well, in most cases, we have a weighted fly wheel, that spins at significant RPM's, to produce a good inertial feel and mimic that from outside. In this case, it may also add some "stability" via resistance to direction changes (what a gyro does). But our body weight and manual inputs on the bike via the bars and pedals, can easily overcome that resistance. The fact that it is relatively low and close to the pivot point is an advantage to us in keeping the motion lighter and closer to outside feeling. That and the proper leveling spring setup can largely mask the weight of the trainer and gyro effect.
Could be that using the Climb raises Shane's CofG thus increasing the lever ratio to the pivot point of the rocker plate. This improved his ride experience at the higher Climb positions. The same feel could be achieved by altering the spring rate of the foam cushions or moving them inwards. This tuning only works for one setup height, having a Climb complicates things, but that's not a problem for my Climb-less setup.
Been waiting for your take on these rocker plates Lama great insight!! Is the workout you were doing with the sprints then over unders available for download on zwift?
Cam tell the seat and chain stays are being put under unnatural strain when you lean without pedalling. I can see the need for a little side to side play but this seems like overkill
The problem isn't the side play, but the overly stiff spring setup. With a lower leveling spring force, this improves the feel and reduces the stress on the frame.
His height is fine. He has the springs too wide, and likely too big. I'd cut them in half on each side and move them to the middle space between the center pivot and the outside edge of the rocker. That decrease spring rate and increase leverage (both of which are needed). That change will also allow for greater angular deflection. A good rocker has at least 5* per side. I use 5* regularly, but like around 7* at the limits to keep from hitting the bump stops on a regular basis.
Hi Shane, I need your help please bro. You are probably the best person to help with this. I’ve just bought a wahoo kickr 17 and used it for the second time yesterday. I’m using the wahoo fitness app at the moment as I don’t have Zwift yet. My problem is that the kickr resistance seems to be too much even tho I ride on simulation with 0 gradient and 0 wind. I find that it’s quite difficult to keep 80-85 cadence when using the kickr. On the road it’s usually very easy for me to do so. Furthermore the big gear in front seems to make the situation worst and I struggle to get 70 cadence. Do you know what could be wrong, what am I doing wrong?
Wahoo Support are your best bet here. Other than changing to an easier gear, which I'm sure you've done, I'm not sure what else other than a spindown you can try.
Shane Miller - GPLama Great and informative...I’ve been curious about the rocker plate/trainer set ups, but cannot go there just yet because of those unnatural feelings of a trainer. I’m on a set of inside ride e-motion rollers and can do climbing and sprint efforts. These actually solve the bike movement issues (I’ve always don’t rollers after knee pain from the static bike position on a trainer). The biggest drawback to the rollers is wheel slip, but anyone without a direct drive trainer will have this. I know I’m losing some top end accuracy because of this, but I’m ok with that given my cycling focus and goals right now. Realistic ride quality currently trumps missing that top end. Thanks again and I’ll be looking for more info as these develop!
I thought the climb can only go forwards and backwards as shown when you tried to push it over sidewards. If the rear of the bike is on a rocker I feel like the front on the climb might be too unstable.
Shane, In the Rocker Plates FB group there are a number of full length rockers designed to allow for newer Kickrs and a Climb to be mounted on the rocking plate. Your video and this reply have exploded the rationale for these in one fell swoop. Well played.
It will never work with design like that. This rocker plate can only move in one axis but bike movement is a complex 3D movement, that's why adding climb helps. You will always need "rocking" for both wheel and they can't interfere/block each other. On top of that you need some range of motion in line of bike axis. One idea would to create parabolic/hyperbolic (also something else, that would need to be tested) bowls that would seat on the floor, inside there would be some bearing surface and on top of that there would be matching plate (dome-shaped on the bottom and flat on top). You would place trainer and front wheel on top of these. But we need someone with lathe (or cnc if bowls need to be not round but longer in one direction) to test that idea.
rocker plates + kickr + kickr climb + vr goggles + 360° video = (nearly) total immersion! one could even enhance this experience with some kind of vibrating rocker plates to simulate the variation in tarmac quality.
the neighbours would love a vibrating rockerplate haha
At 5:55 'Why am I still wearing a helmet'. Brilliant!!😆
Made me laugh!
good use of the cameras to show the movement, especially out on the road, showed how different real life movement is to these plates. I've used pilates balance "disks/half balls" under the feet of my trainer (so three disks, two under each back foot, one under front bar of a Tacx Flow), weird sensation but did get more movement than a single rocker plate, but gone back to trainer on the floor as didn't feel it made a massive difference.
Thanks for the review Shane. I do hope that you review other Rockers. The Rocker in the review needs some design changes to be an effective Rocker. Suspension and trainer retention to the top plate will allow you to have a better experience with Rockers. I can't even think of riding my Kickr without my Rocker. Comfort level on longer than 1 hour rides sold me on my first Rocker ride. Looking forward to all of your reviews, and more Rocker reviews. Cheers!!
Awesome review, thanks Shane. If nothing else I now have ZERO DOUBT when it comes to getting a Climb ;)
Squirm effect caused by gyroscopic precession. You don’t normally want to to tilt a fly wheel.
Nicely done, Shane. Excellent analysis. Thanks for relieving some of our fears about bike breakage on the trainer. Look forward to the next experiment.
Good video (as ever. You have a great affinity with this) Re sprints and frame flex. This week I watched, at track training, a few AAA+++ sprinters (world champ level). When they got into sprinting the bikes looked like a noodle, so much power in each stroke that the bike had twist and was binding up like i've never seen.
I had the first generation of the Kickr until it packed up, bought a TacX neo and you get this rocker feel built in, a much nicer feel then riding a brick fence feel.
Shane.....first loved the twisted sister intro. Second, content has been outstanding lately. Thanks for finding new points of view or interesting new products. And mixing short with long videos. I've started to take a trainer class at my local BS tomtake my novice skills to the next level so your channel is even more relevant to me now. Thanks. Keep it up. Let me know when you are in NYC next time... beers on me.
Having just built a home made rocker plate I am seeing all of the issues regarding side to side motion. I think the main issue is the lack of counter steering coupled with the lowering of the centre of gravity with the addition to a turbo trainer. I think this is why when it was bolted to the climber you got a more natural feel. By using two anchor points through the fork you increased the lateral forces applied making it easier to apply a more correct side to side motion compared with the central contact point of a tire.
You should give the SBR Endurance Rockr a go Shane. It is a full platform rocker plate and is consumer direct.
Happy to. My limiters are $ and where I live. I'm 16,000km from the States.
Agreed. It is $169.00 to ship to Toronto from their USA location. Likely a bit more to AUS. $449 USD is the retail price.
Another amazing and comedic video as always Shane! Thank you for all the great content that you produce.
Cheers! :)
Brilliant.. I have been wondering a lot about the rocker plates. This was very informative thanks for doing this..
A most excellent review . Banging my head about in the mosh pit of bogus designs frustrates me like a twisted sister. Close enough. I'm leaning towards a rocker plate and angling in a Kickr Climb to the mix would elevate my indoor riding to new heights.
Party On Shane
Have seen demos of rocker plates with much more movement. So many designs popping up around the net in the last few weeks.
Very interested in a rocker plate as I get knee pain on the turbo on the same bike that I have no problem with outdoors. I've started to put this down to being in that locked in position.
One day when there is a full on 'smart rocker' cornering in Zwift will be a whole new experience. Will never be the same as outdoors
Thanks for another great video Lama!
Nice job Lama!
Shane I really appreciate all the work you put into these videos. As one who makes a few videos, I try to keep things simple, but yours makes for great viewership. Fantastic!
I spend more time on writing good product reviews and then throw the videos in there. We should team up sometime. Next time you're in the State you need to make your way to Austin, Texas.
This is probably the best overall rocker plate video I have seen. Lots of really good intel.
"Frog caught in a sock" I love it.
Definitely planning to make one of these!
Great! Come check out our group, if you haven't joined already.
facebook.com/groups/415329188897706/
The split-screen with dissimilar cadences is turning my brain to mush.
What a great idea. I've been having back pain on the trainer that I don't get on the road.
Come check out all the options we have:
facebook.com/groups/415329188897706/
Shane - please test it on a "long" ride...does it improve the seat pain? I get seat pain all the time on the trainer...almost never get it on the road (well...maybe first couple weeks...) Gr8 vid as usual!!
The sun is out. My time indoors is limited to 60mins or less. I'd look at a better saddle if you're in pain, rocker plate or not.
Ha, Sorry...I forgot! You lucky bugger...we still have 2 feet of snow!!!
Outdoor we have momentum and giro effect.
Back then when I started training indoor with the kickr I would get painful around the sitbone area because it's all rigid, so I got a Kinetic Rock'n'Roll (yeah from smart trainer to turbo). I got it for the damping not for the rocking design. Sitting back into the saddle felt less harsh after out of saddle efforts. The tiny left-right gives under the crouch also lessen sitbone sore.
What it advertised though, that natural rocking sensation of sprinting, was never natural and difficult to implement, and actually wasting energy. Outdoor sprinting we forcefully swing the bike away from the leg that's doing the downward stroke, actually creating watts with our upper body. With the rocker, the bike wants to fall to the downward stroking leg. Trying to push the bike away doesn't work because we are up in the air. Try doing 'microburst' on it, adds more difficulty..
Eventually I realized that to reduce saddle sore all it took was more indoor hours, with the right saddle and pants. So now I can ride indoor 3 hrs with the kickr with bearable sitbone sore. I don't do that very often because most workouts are less than 1.5-2hrs.
So the Kinetic is there collecting dust.
lol, im managing to do hr runs now after being in agony the first 6 weeks. Yeahh its just weak ass hehe
agreed 100%. I assume rocker plates and R and R have the same problem..
do you think, outdoors, we can do what you say (forcefully swing bike away from leg doing downward action) because of the outdoor forces we can kind of stand against, either centripital or centrifugal (whatever) , or, just forward momentum..or all three?
Which is why I'm still in love with my dumb LeMond Revolution.
Answered my question on the comparison with the Kinetic R&R. Thanks.
"...like a frog caught in a sock." Bwahahaha LOL, that's great/funny analogy, Shane!
i saw a pretty fancy one using an axel in the middle and two small inflatable balls, and you change the bobbing amount based on the pressure in the balls
Following with great interest. But finding the right size soft paperbacks to get the side to side done, and done.
The rocket I made has a significantly larger range of motion. Once I “let” myself ride and swing my bike like I do outdoors, it swings pretty close to how it does outdoors. I think the rocker you are using is just limited in range of motion and the foam is a good amount stiffer than many out there.
Hopefully you made one of mine ;)
I am sending one today to Shane for testing.
You video raises some interesting points regarding the experience. Some folks, me included, suspect that non-rocking trainer riding may cause additional stresses on some joints of the body. So rocking even with its "experience" limitation could be a total plus if it alleviates aches and pains. I suspect that some gurus on pro teams might have more insight in this regard. A quick google scholar search did not yield anything. As you point out, the forces involved in a real ride are complex and you even suggest that different mechanical regimes might be needed for different riding regimes. These observations suggest that a mechanical passive system and especially a simple one will not feel real. The out of the saddle experience on the road also involves synchronized steering changes. I find the absence of steering effects also troubling. I now wonder if allowing steering even if not "connected" to anything would also improve the experience.
Shane, I can't remember if you've ever tried the Kurt Kinetic Rock n Roll. I'd love to get your feedback on how that experience will compare to a proper rocker plate.
It might be worth seeing if you can move the blue foam a bit closer to the center and seeing how it rocks then.
Yup, that is the first thing I recommended. Way too stiff and limiting to angular rotation where they are right now.
Shane, related more to power meters: does a rocker plate affect the indoor readings from the Rotor 2inpower? I remember both you and Ray found a discrepancy riding indoors. Would a rocker plate have and influence and make it overread less indoors?
Yet to test.... I don't think this one replicates outside enough to warrant the time to swap BB/cranks/etc.
I'm looking into these more for comfort than realism. Staying on the bike for 3 hours indoors is much of a PITA (not just more boring but real PITA) than doing a 6 hour ride outside, at least for me. Do you think these rocker plates make things easier in that respect?
Cheers!
So glad it’s not just me with this problem! Thought I was just getting soft in my old age!
I fully claim that comfort is one primary benefit to a proper rocker. Even adding a mild amount of angular float can make a HUGE difference when it comes to medium and longer rides. I have used my rockers for a few 5+ hour over century rides on Zwift and plenty more in the 3-4 hour range. It's possible to do that without a rocker, but not with the same level of comfort.
Looking at the minimal effect the rocker has on normal steady state riding makes me think the static bike isn't what's causing the PITA. Indoor trainers hurt the rear a lot more because you're consistently in the one position the whole time. Outdoors, you're out of the saddle here and there, you're shifting around, stopping at lights. There's more micro-relief happening.
Don't forget about the actual angle changes we experience on every bike ride.
Change lanes... requires a lean.
Roll through a turn... requires a lean.
Reach for a bottle... likely results in a lean.
Reach for a gel in the jersey... likely results in a lean.
And many more like that, which all lead to subtle changes in saddle position and pressure.
Allowing the bike to float a bit on a rocker provides a similar relief.
Yes they do. A lot.
Very interesting thanks Shane. I wonder if the full length rocker plate would help with the sideways movement for the front of the bike. Or perhaps a wheel block with a slightly rounded bottom.
and what you were saying about moving forwards and backwards, surely that is the same the taxc galaxia rollers that have the rockers under the rear wheel - they mean that the bike can move forwards and backwards a little bit to make it feel for natural
The fore-aft movement is also a key part of the InRide Emotion rollers. It is an interesting option and a great feel based on the DIY motion rollers I made, before making rockers.
Don't know if this has come up yet but what about the Kinetic Rock and Roll | Smart which looks like it does all that you're trying to achieve? maybe someone has already mentioned this, always good to watch your blogs.
I made my first rocker over 2 years ago, when the only Rock and Roll trainer was the fluid version. I already owned a rigid Road Machine, and didn't fancy paying $400 to buy a R&R frame (Kinetic actually sells it as an upgrade accessory). So I made a rocker to replace that dedicated frame. Worked great and cost less than $100 in parts.
Then with the advent of smart trainers and especially wheel-off versions, my universal rocker plate was useful for any trainer. So it is great to have the ability to use any and all trainers with a rocker plate, in stead of being locked into a single trainer.
Yay a video posted in Australian time :) that looks so unnerving. I'm pretty funny making trainers more life like but I guess these are not made for me. I can just not get into trainers :(
I believe the rocker plates require a hard divider located in the area where the wheel touches the ground. This will prevent a push on a pedal on one side to be distributed between the two sides of the rocker. On the road this does not happen because wheel is the single contact point. With this device though every pedal push is distributed between the two points of contract which emulates more a tricycle. If there is a hard divider in the middle emulates the wheel point of contract and makes the effort affect only the side of the pushed pedal.
Adding the climbing device make it guide the bike movement and it mitigates the lack of single contact point at the back end.
starting at 4:15 is why I follow you so religiously; common sense analysis, aka how does this compare to "real-world" feel? Completely agree there isn't the full range of motion & that may/maynot be an issue. But a point I do think your on the verge of, is the "when & where"...when does tilt start (& specifically which direction does it go) during the motion. Starting at 5:45 you can see where the rocker plate allows tilt to the left or right that corresponds with THAT same side's pedal being pushed down. This is the opposite outside, which you started to allude to & couldn't quite put your finger on it at @7:02.
Part of it, is the axis at which the tilt happens (the where)... real world (outdoors), the lateral tilt axis is going to be at or slightly above the bb & hubs. The baseline center is going to be center of mass (primarily body weight, so imagine a center-line that extends up & down through the center of your torso). In a sprint, your handlebars/seat/toptube will roll to the left as my right pedal goes through its downward motion; while at that same time the bottom of the wheels will kick out slightly to the right (viceversa for the left pedal stroke). The axis that the bike tilts is more in the center of the bike (or as I said near the hubs), NOT an axis located at the base of the wheels (or in some cases, a bit lower than that) for rocker plates. I think in a way, that would define that "squirm" feel, which I thought was a good choice of words to describe the different feel between the two (especially when adding the other dimension of front-to-back motion at the same time). An rotational axis closer to the hub height would provide a more outdoor/natural feel, but as you said I think this has a more-real element than a completely fixed position.
As you sort of closed out your video, I also think the design & support of the side resistance materials makes a difference. There's a youtuber named Chad McNeese who has seemed to have worked out a pretty good rubber/foam density configuration & he is doing a great job really leading the charge on this whole rocker plate movement it's design element. I love to see it & think it's great...my own personal hesitation right now is I am planning to wait on strapping my Kickr Snap into one until my warranty is up, per Wahoo's cust. service dept telling me that use of the devices would most likely void warranty (as they can't control, especially for homemade units, the quality control or specs that would potentially put torsional stress/affect the trainers).
Super glad to see you use it with the Climb!!! It was more stable than I thought & your comments were very encouraging...for me personally, this is where I can really see the benefit, as out of the saddle in a climb is where I tend to "dance" or really get my side-to-side movement outside.
GREAT VID! RIDE ON, Lama, ride on!!!
I'm thinking suspension elements on both sides with spring curves and dampening to sort out a more realistic range and motion
Much better use of the 360 camera in the video this time Shane. Keep it up!
The magic of Hollywood. No 360 cameras were used.
Shane Miller - GPLama well then. You fooled me. Maybe a gymball then with the head on camera on the bike outside? Haven't seen you use one before :)
yeah... BUT you missed the perfect green screen opportunity! I could imagine you sprint with the background world rocking 90 degrees in both directions!! wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!
A lot covered but I wonder what the difference in noise is. The rocker plate looks as a resonance box. How much louder will it be on different trainers and specifically on the quieter ones. Neo and Kicker, but it could be interesting on the cheaper smart ones as well.
Repeated my reply to a similar question by another poster.
The specific design of a rocker influences how it handles sound. Some (many of the tennis ball versions with no rigid center support) do dampen the sound and vibrations. Some people like them for upper level locations to minimize transmission to other floors.
Other designs with rigid center supports and hinges, along with some of the full length rockers, actually increase sound and vibration. People are working to understand the cause and solutions. There are applications using rubber and carpet to damp the sound in those cases.
It's a peripheral consideration for many, but is very important for some people. I expect this will be an attribute worthy of comparison when we start seeing commercial units for sale.
I wonder if changing the density of the blue foam (I'm guessing it's foam) will affect the characteristics of the rocker.
Eli Douek, yes there are many ways to change (dare I say fix) the ride of the BOB.
1. Move them more towards the center, increases leverage.
2. The above also creates an early angle stop when the foam reaches solid height.
3. Cutting them to smaller size also makes the rocker more active.
I used a combo of those to perfect the feel of my rockers,for seated, standing, and sprinting efforts.
*puts keys back on the bench and changes mind about trip to Bunnings
Great vid again. Thanks
Stay tuned! Next rocker review soon!
I don't see rocker plates coming close to the feel of the real world. I think the only reason I'd get one is for comfort. Naturally we move a lot out doors. All the micro moments during a real world ride gives constant pressure relief. If it means longer rides and a happier gooch indoors then it's a must have.
Feel is very subjective to spring setup. This one is not great and can be greatly improved. My rockers, and feedback from friends and others who have built my design show much close feel to outside. It will likely never match real riding, but I think I have it very close and close enough to make a HUGE difference in the indoor cycling experience.
The video shows that squirm is mostly from the failure of the cable ties to prevent motion of the Kickr on the rocker plate.
Yes, the trainer is definitely slipping on the surface. Full and restrained retention is an important feature of a proper rocker.
Yeah, I saw that movement, too. The designer needs to address that area to ensure a more secure tie down. Plus those zipties can eventually break.
Will your "Swift Zwift Tip" Series be replaced with a "Rapid Rocker Recommendation" Series? :D
The kinetic rocking trainer comes with a wheel block that rotates. It gives that “loose” front end that makes the rocking feel more real. Try the “Bob” with the kinetics rotating wheel block. It’s not the poor rocking motion of the bob thats killing the realism, it’s the stationary front wheel. Let us know!
TheRealtorCyclist _ the front rotation may help, but the overly stiff spring setup on the Bob is the major restriction to better rocking action.
A rocker plate with an acceleratomer feeding back to zwift and you have steering😜
john citizen , yes, I'm hoping Zwift adds that for us rocker users.
Not much point when you can go around hairpin bends at 50mph with no collision detection. You'd be at a serious disadvantage in racing :D Not much point steering if you can't crash! They would have to introduce braking - an analogue lever attached to your bar that connects to your device that's running the mobile link app. I'm all for real ride feel but trying to introduce steering, braking, collision/crashing would mean a complete redesign of the game - aint gonna happen :)
skullmanUK , you are jumping way ahead. The first implementation could simply be to allow leaning (read by the phone). It could select the direction while in turn zones, so you can pic on the bike, instead of using a keyboard or the mobile link app. If they ever introduce lane selection options, the lean could work for that too.
So it doesn't have to go from nothing all the way to reality. It's an idea to add some more interaction with the game via the bike..
Perfect job Shane. I was waiting to see a REAL "how does it feel" video as opposed to some builder touting his own design. I don't have problems sitting on the bike inside, of course I rarely ride longer than an hour and some. What I do notice is that my outdoor sprint early in the season feels odd. I'm doing the INDOOR sprint outside, where I am essentially sprinting without rocking, until I get enough outside miles in to swing free again. Sadly it seems to repeat each winter. I am hoping someone does some serious analysis and engineers something that comes closer to outdoor sprinting. So far, I haven't seen anything even remotely close. Might be a difficult task. OR you might need to get some feedback into the swing resistance system. Like the Climb takes it's clues from the Kickr, maybe we need the rocker plates resistance/springs to adjusted also by some feedback...that sounds expensive... hmmmmm...
Your comments on the odd transition indoor season to outdoor season are part of the reason I made my first rocker. You ask for serious analysis and engineering... and precisely what I have done with dozens of rockers I have built in the last 2.5 years.
It is in essence, easy. But the Devil is in the details. Getting the right motion takes the right spring setup. I believe I have hit on the right ability to adjust for new riders up to advanced riders and a range of weights and styles.
I am shipping a brand new Rockit Launcher for Shane to ride and review. I will help him learn how it works and adjust it to hit his preferred setup.
I know its just a "builder's video" but mine shows a range of riding situations, including a 1200w sprint. So, I fully know what you and Shane seek is very possible because I've already done it.
th-cam.com/video/gt2XO4NVZEo/w-d-xo.html
Shane, probably a weird question but nevertheless, it'd be helpful for me. With that setup (without the rocker plates - nice idea but it still needs some work) what is the total length from the front of the kickr climb to the end of the kicker 17/18? I'm trying to get an idea to see if it fits my living room. Thanks in advance
It's more of a simulation and is better than the rigid feel. I've it Seem a couple if fixed trainers that roll on an axis much like the way an airplane does. It's coming soon a full 3d simulated ride with software that mimics roads surfaces. Can only.imagine riding cobbles and getting that feeling via the trainer.
Glad I watched this video before I splurged out on a rocker plate
They're only a few $$ to make yourself with the right parts.
Just my observations. An issue may be when you're sprinting on the road you turn your handle bars which changes your cg and helps tilt the bike against the gyroscopic precession of the wheels. When you're on the trainer the wheels don't really move, as you mentioned. Probably a smaller reason but worth considering, you're used to not rocking when riding indoors.
The issue isn't turning forces. It's too much leveling force from the springs. Decrease in their force will start to fix the problem.
Chad McNeese not really turning forces. I’m talking about balance. Because the forks are pointed forwards slightly, when you turn the handle bars the front wheel moves off centre. Since it’s off centre the cg changes (and yes, also turning forces) and then you lean.
Look at people when they sprint. Their wheel moves side to side to assist in leaning the bike.
But I agree with you. The springs will need to be dampened more but putting the front wheel on a small pivoting plate will allow for less dampened springs and less unwanted rocking when in steady state.
Actual steering on a bike is a mix if bike lean and handle bar turning. How much of each is required varies with bike speed and intended rate of direction change. The faster you go, the more you lean the bike as opposed to turning the bars, and vice versa for slower.
I have great luck with my rear-only rocker and front tire on a flat riser. The tire and wheel roll left and right (just like outside) so it works perfectly well.
I could imagine a smart platform that adjust the tilt distance and resistance based on power being applied to the pedals.
The only way to get unrestricted indoor movement - reactive, smart treadmill the size of your entire garage?! Hopefully that's enough leeway for a full on sprint, I'm happy to test out any free prototypes...
One of the huge, hugely expensive cycling versions of a treadmill is probably the only way an "indoor" experience will approximate realism. Then again, who knows...maybe a Kickr Climb and a "Kicker Rock" mounted to front and rear QR's would do the job all on a board with rollers allowing 2-3cm's of back and forth motion.
I use stationary trainers as they are great for structured workouts. I'm not expecting them to provide realism. That said, seeing what people come up with is interesting.
My goal is to take the best of all sources (rigid trainers, motion rollers, treadmills, pitch control, etc.) and wrap it into the ultimate indoor training and riding setup.
Freedom to rock, roll, translate with just enough control to make it easier and more predictable than rollers or a treadmill. We are still in the early days and I expect we will see some very great solutions as we continue to push the design and development process forward.
I don't get why it has to be so complicated. I just cut a 3 by 3 piece of 3/4 plywood( the floor will serve as the other board, lol) I already had and screwed on a 2 by 2 right down the middle. I bought a foam mat at Walmart for 5 bucks...some boat seat pad thingy! It was about 1 inch thick so I cut it up into 3"x3" blocks. I stacked them so I had 4 double blocks, so 2" blocks. I glued them together put them under the board about half way to the edge and about 6" from the front and rear on both sides. I haven't mounted my Kickr Snap yet, but not sure I get that part either. I rode for a bit and it doesn't turn over, in fact it doesn't even move at all. I got some of those furniture cups to put the front legs in. I figure I'll maybe mount the back with some plumbers tape and a couple of screws just to be sure. Actually just drilling holes to thread some zip ties through would probably be easier. When I need to move it just clip em and reinstall! Performance wise it feels really natural and even has a little circular shimmy to it and not just a rocking movement. I have 8 bucks in my rocker plate! Even if you had to buy plywood, it would still be less than $25. I can't imagine moving one around that is made with 2 pieces. It's heavy enough with one. It's not pretty, but it's in the basement!
Awesome video Shane, I always wondered what they would be like.
In fairness, look at video of a top pro road sprinter and the bike doesn't rock much all that much from side to side. Still not convinced, look at a top track sprinter, the bike doesn't rock at all. That's part of the technique of becoming a good sprinter. So maybe the other side of the coin is a relatively fixed trainer is indeed good for sprint training in learning how to get big power out (2000+ W in the case of a trackie) without getting the bike all tangled up?
BTW fantastic editing Lama. I liked that out the front camera mount and the video was cut brilliantly. I appreciate the effort you go to with these videos.
I see a whole lot of rockin' here: th-cam.com/video/SVYPpqCvles/w-d-xo.html
You think so Shane? I guess it's subjective as I would say that's exactly my point, what would be the average angle, +/- 10 degrees? Sure different sprinters have different techniques and it's not difficult to cherry pick extremes, but most don't move all that much in the grand scheme of things in my opinion. Certainly within the capable range of some form of simulation anyway.
Track? Just bought up something off the top of my head, last Olympic games. Zero movement. th-cam.com/video/iMbwSnxhDOc/w-d-xo.html
I recall seeing a photo of myself crossing the line in a road sprint and the bike was damned near 45 degrees! I had no idea I could get a bike so tangled up :P ... I did win however ;)
Shorter cranks.... much higher RPM on the track... and when they crank the bikes from lower speeds/RPM (not from a standing start, that's up and down), they're still moving the bike side to side. I'd need to get some cameras out on the bike to know what the exact movement would be. More than the BOB plate offered that's for sure.
If we could only have the e-motion rollers have a kickr & kickr climb built in, it would be great! After using Krietlers for years then going to the e-motions it was a drastic change. I love my kickr but nothing compares to racing on Zwift with rollers. No rocker plates needed!
Ed Burgess Loving my emotion with smart controller as well. They just feel amazing. Like to see Lama get his hands on a pair to review. I'd also like to see a modified floating fork stand that can raise the front to simulate climbing. To be honest though I'd likely only use that option a few times and then put it away as things just feel so good as is.
The rocker plate needs pins in each corner, so it doesn’t squirm when you are up out of the saddle .
Thanks for the video Shane. An important factor is that the trainer weighs 21kg. Whereas on the road there is nothing weighing down your back wheel. From observation there is a bit of a snaking motion in sprinting rather than direct side-2-side motion.
Yep, the massive rocker-plates people are building are not the answer either. I have a follow up on this to do.... one day.
“Keep the inner workings under wraps” OOKAAAAY, very cloak and dagger stuff.... those two pieces of wood and foam....did you sign a nda before you got that thing?
.... again on the respect thing. I was asked not to show it, so I didn't. I respected the request.
New bkool (Smart air I think) maybe a good shout. Can't wait to see lama's/rainmaker's 2pence worth on it.
It's unseen. It's the rainbow shitting unicorn of the trainer world. Evans Cycles says it's four weeks away? I'll believe it when I see it.
Shane Miller - GPLama nice one for getting intouch. Very true, but we can live in hope haha.
BKool Air = Vapor Rocker/Trainer
Shane - can you review the Kurt kinetic rock and roll?
If I can get one, sure.
Hi Shane, do you think the rocker plate adds any comfort to your experience on the bike due to the movement? I can manage about 3hrs on my KICKR before my arse is screaming, where as outdoors that’s not a problem, I think it’s due the bike being fixed in place, any thoughts? Keep up the great work..Ride On!👍🏽
Actually bikes don’t want to fall over at speed, due to the rotational inertia of the wheels they would actually stay upright with no one riding it on a smooth, level surface. When sprinting bikes don’t rock as much as you think, they also move side to side, it’s a translational movement more than rotational. The only thing that simulates that is the awesome Tacx treadmill thing I saw your great video on
Perhaps some sort of shock lockout, like on a mountain bike, could work? Then you flick the handle and lock out the rocker when doing steady efforts, and unluck it for sprints and climbing. I'm not sure how to implement this in practice, but someone might be able to make it work...
I lockout is a possibility. I would actually prefer a dual rate spring setup. One for firm, minimal rock (as I think some rock is always a good thing, especially for extended seated efforts), and another for looser feel for standing and sprints.
Starting at 4:29, can you tell me how you set up your camera? What did you use to extend the gopro(?) out in front, and how was it attached to the bars?
GoPro 3-Way taped to the head unit mount.
Maybe smart rollers with an actuator to lift the front wheel like the wahoo climb and big enough rear roller to keep you from rolling of the thing ?
Something like the tacx magnum
Moveing the blue foam closer to the center, would it not make it more rocky?
Yes, it would...already suggested... more than once.
Where did you put the camera, when doing the outside footage?.... great angle.
On the GoPro 3Way mount. I should do a video on just that setup for the on-bike stuff. It's the mount, the stabilisation, and some tricks with the mic to get clear audio. Cool stuff (well, I think so) :)
do you feel that rocker needs a pivot point to eliminate that squirming motion? in real world riding the bike technically pivots its motion off the center point of the tire.
When i use my TT bike on the traniner and am in my aerobars i get a shoulder pain/ ache which i dont get outside. I feel like it could be the due to the front wheel being static and not free to move and therefore my shoulders fighting it a little. I wonder if the rocker plate for the whole bike and no just the rear. by adding even a slight degree of motion could help this.
Yes, a rocker really helps, even when seated and especially if you are in a TT/Tri position for extended periods. The subtle movement mimics the shifts outside and makes saddle comfort much better.
I wish rocker plates could work but I don't think they''ll ever be what we really want them to be. I made one before I knew they were a thing online. It was using thick bands as resistance and it had more movement, which is what I originally wanted. I found that it was difficult to have the bike remain upright without having to try to balance it (bad for knees and technique in general). Any stiffer and there wouldn't have been the movement I wanted (like in the Bob rocker).
I think we underestimate the gyroscopic effect our wheels give in allowing the bike to remain upright when we want, and being able to throw it around when we want.
The ideal indoor trainer would be a responsive treadmill.
Over the course of 2.5 years, with over 10,000 miles and 500 hours on my rockers.. and they work very, very well. I've built several for friends and they all agree. The mans for riders who built their built their own versions of my rocker also claim great improvements in feel and comfort.
A proper spring setup in a rocker can do a good job mimicking the feel of a bike in motion on the road. But it takes some time to hit on that combo, not just one attempt. I went thru many iterations of rockers and spring setups before I got it right.
th-cam.com/video/gt2XO4NVZEo/w-d-xo.html
Hi Shane. I would like to know what kind of setup and camera did you use for the ride outside. Those shots looked magnificent and the audio was great too!
The fight with the rebound of the foam is the problem here I'd say.
Do you think it the rocking motion will translate into increased strain on the KICKR Climb ultimately leading to some damage with time?
No
I wonder if the power readings would change if you calibrate the trainer on the rocker plate
I wouldn't think so.
It is hard to tell from the video, but it appears that there is no center support. Other designs have a pivot in the center that prevents the entire platform from moving up and down. The sides can move up and down, but only by pivoting along the center axis. This would I think be noticeable in the sprint test where it appeared that the entire platform was moving up and down instead of side to side.
Outside when sprinting the bike cannot move up and down, but only side to side. You want to retain that for rocker plate designs.
Look at the middle axis of the deck. You will see 6 holes, 3 pairs, spaced in a way that matches the typical setup using pillow block bearings and a center pivot shaft. I am comfortable claiming it is very likely the same concept on display in dozens of other builds on the Zwift Rocker Plate Facebook group.
The overly stiff springs are hiding the movement (not to mention the true potential) of the rocker.
In terms of the movement of the bike, how does it compare to rollers, compared to outside?
perhaps if the plate rested on an elastic gel bladder, and had one for the front wheel as well, it'd have freer movement and account for twisting? something good and viscous so it's easy to clean up when you burst the bag....
Just saw another vid on this concept by david arthur. air balls. much cleaner. too bouncy?
Actually thinking about it, surely it's the front end that swings about far more than the rear so perhaps people should be thinking about that a bit more? Perhaps you could get away with just a kinetic rock'n'roll with some kind of fancy rockerplate up front.
Love to see where this goes.
Here is my design:
th-cam.com/video/gt2XO4NVZEo/w-d-xo.html
Not sure. The Neo literally sways for me and I think it's caused a knee injury when at higher cadence
I think I would rather know if the rocker made the bike more comfortable because you can have those micro movements.
They definitely do for many people. It's possibly the most common compliment when people ride one, especially if they ride more than 90 minutes.
Chad McNeese I know that I've had trouble with saddles and shorts and still getting some tingling so I'm definitely thinking of building one.
Very interesting video Shane Miller !!
From what I’ve understood on Facebook you’re getting another rocker (with different “rocking” concept) soon??
Yep. I'll do my best to get a few different ones so I'm across what works, what doesn't, and so I can add my 2c to those making them.
I will do my best to get the feel he wants. Wheels in motion.
Great to see you on here, Chad. I think you're the man for the job!
Thanks, Jeff. Doing my best to get a proper setup and review next.
What about comfort Shane? Does the ability to move reduce the discomfort of a 2 hr session? Do you feel more inclined (!) to get out of the saddle?
Nothing really noticeable after an hour on this one. I guess it'd depend on the rider. I've been on the ergo for 10-12hrs for more than one stint and it's not all that bad even on a rigid trainer.
Wouldn’t the foam in the rocker plate suck up some of your watts? So you’ll be putting out less watts for the same effort?
Maybe. It really depends on the pedal stroke, sway angles (typically wrong on a rocker plate), and absorption of energy.
Kurt Kinetic should have been all over this years ago with a real direct drive smart trainer for sale already.
Indeed, the lack of a wheel-off from them was one reason I made my first rocker over 2 years ago.
Chad does it work any better than the Bob Rocker shown in the video? I would then put the foam pieces closer to the center of the rocker as it would give it more movement as it could flex/move to a greater angle.
Here is my design in use:
th-cam.com/video/gt2XO4NVZEo/w-d-xo.html
Note the inner location of my springs. I also have just 2" x 2" spring stacks, 2 at the front half, 2 at the back half. This leads to much more angular movement with much less force required. All that leads to a more realistic motion and feel.
Additionally, I am now using inflatable balls that improve the feel even more than my spring stacks.
My full design for anyone wanting to make one.
zwiftinsider.com/rockit-launcher/
Looks great Chad. What are you using for the front tire? I think the way your front end moves is really making a huge difference.
wondering if the tilt motion were a little "looser" and you were using a Snap. The spinning back wheel would provide the gyroscopic action to aid in keeping the bike vertical would help with the realism
I've used 2 different wheel-on and 2 different wheel-off trainers on my rockers over the years. The is no major difference other than the total weight added. The heavier wheel-off trainers do add to the polar moment of inertia, but the relatively low center of mass makes the overall impact to rocking minimal. I can't say that there is a huge difference on either setup in general use.
Interesting Chad..The gyroscopic effect is something that I thought was missing from replicating the experience. Maybe not!
Well, in most cases, we have a weighted fly wheel, that spins at significant RPM's, to produce a good inertial feel and mimic that from outside. In this case, it may also add some "stability" via resistance to direction changes (what a gyro does). But our body weight and manual inputs on the bike via the bars and pedals, can easily overcome that resistance.
The fact that it is relatively low and close to the pivot point is an advantage to us in keeping the motion lighter and closer to outside feeling. That and the proper leveling spring setup can largely mask the weight of the trainer and gyro effect.
Could be that using the Climb raises Shane's CofG thus increasing the lever ratio to the pivot point of the rocker plate. This improved his ride experience at the higher Climb positions. The same feel could be achieved by altering the spring rate of the foam cushions or moving them inwards. This tuning only works for one setup height, having a Climb complicates things, but that's not a problem for my Climb-less setup.
Yes, great observation Martin. That is very likely to have helped overcome the stiff springs.
Been waiting for your take on these rocker plates Lama great insight!! Is the workout you were doing with the sprints then over unders available for download on zwift?
It's my Lama Lab Test workout. It changes often so I haven't made it a public workout.
Cam tell the seat and chain stays are being put under unnatural strain when you lean without pedalling. I can see the need for a little side to side play but this seems like overkill
The problem isn't the side play, but the overly stiff spring setup.
With a lower leveling spring force, this improves the feel and reduces the stress on the frame.
Have you reviewed the product Kinetic Rock and Roll smart control trainer?
No. I've tried to get a hold of them..... no luck.
Shane Miller - GPLama Darn. Okay I’ll keep watching your videos as they are very useful. 👍🏼
Kurt Kinetic Rock and Roll is one of the best solution atm, but i think there is a lot of room to improve Rocker Plates
The R&R was my inspiration, but I wanted the ability to use ANY trainer and get proper rocking.
Chad McNeese, so need more height for bigger angle and remove rubber straps - foam rubber may be enough.
His height is fine. He has the springs too wide, and likely too big. I'd cut them in half on each side and move them to the middle space between the center pivot and the outside edge of the rocker. That decrease spring rate and increase leverage (both of which are needed). That change will also allow for greater angular deflection. A good rocker has at least 5* per side. I use 5* regularly, but like around 7* at the limits to keep from hitting the bump stops on a regular basis.
cool, but, things are getting a bit too complicated for me haha
Hi Shane, I need your help please bro. You are probably the best person to help with this. I’ve just bought a wahoo kickr 17 and used it for the second time yesterday. I’m using the wahoo fitness app at the moment as I don’t have Zwift yet. My problem is that the kickr resistance seems to be too much even tho I ride on simulation with 0 gradient and 0 wind. I find that it’s quite difficult to keep 80-85 cadence when using the kickr. On the road it’s usually very easy for me to do so. Furthermore the big gear in front seems to make the situation worst and I struggle to get 70 cadence. Do you know what could be wrong, what am I doing wrong?
Wahoo Support are your best bet here. Other than changing to an easier gear, which I'm sure you've done, I'm not sure what else other than a spindown you can try.
Shane Miller - GPLama Thank you sir, I will contact wahoo. Much appreciated
What if they made these kickers on rollers, would that add realism?
I like how you protect your trainer with tape :) How do rollers compare to the rocker plate concerning road feel while sprinting?
It's impossible to do an out of the saddle maximum power all-out sprint on rollers, so there's no real comparison.
Shane Miller - GPLama Great and informative...I’ve been curious about the rocker plate/trainer set ups, but cannot go there just yet because of those unnatural feelings of a trainer. I’m on a set of inside ride e-motion rollers and can do climbing and sprint efforts. These actually solve the bike movement issues (I’ve always don’t rollers after knee pain from the static bike position on a trainer). The biggest drawback to the rollers is wheel slip, but anyone without a direct drive trainer will have this. I know I’m losing some top end accuracy because of this, but I’m ok with that given my cycling focus and goals right now. Realistic ride quality currently trumps missing that top end. Thanks again and I’ll be looking for more info as these develop!
Can you put the kickr climb on a rocker plate as an addition to this setup? That would give a very realistic indoor ride
Why would the climb need to go on a rocker plate? It moves freely as it is.
I thought the climb can only go forwards and backwards as shown when you tried to push it over sidewards. If the rear of the bike is on a rocker I feel like the front on the climb might be too unstable.
I'm silly. I was so excited with my idea that I commented before I finished the video. You added the climb later. Sorry
Shane,
In the Rocker Plates FB group there are a number of full length rockers designed to allow for newer Kickrs and a Climb to be mounted on the rocking plate. Your video and this reply have exploded the rationale for these in one fell swoop. Well played.
It will never work with design like that. This rocker plate can only move in one axis but bike movement is a complex 3D movement, that's why adding climb helps. You will always need "rocking" for both wheel and they can't interfere/block each other. On top of that you need some range of motion in line of bike axis. One idea would to create parabolic/hyperbolic (also something else, that would need to be tested) bowls that would seat on the floor, inside there would be some bearing surface and on top of that there would be matching plate (dome-shaped on the bottom and flat on top). You would place trainer and front wheel on top of these.
But we need someone with lathe (or cnc if bowls need to be not round but longer in one direction) to test that idea.
abc 10,000 miles,on my rocker says the BOB concept can work. He just had the spring setup all wrong.
Up next.... 3 axis, Virtual Reality, trainers. Sweat simulation accessory optional.
Where do you get the plans/buy the rocker plate?
Here is where I posted mine:
zwiftinsider.com/rockit-launcher/