It sounds like they have very different family backgrounds and Riley has been more supported, by family and with finances, than he has. She had tuition and living expenses paid for. M+D have a large house. She works for her Dad now, she’s done interior design but is n ow back at school (part time?) and she earns a third of what he does. He on the other hand is likely REALLY focused on earning $$$, coming from a much more deprived background. It's a security thing for him. I get that. I think he thinks that she doesn’t take earning good money seriously, that she simply doesn’t have a drive to be a high earner. And the thing is, he’s maybe right, it’s just not a priority for her and it’s not going to change going forward. For HIM, already earning 3x more the gap is likely only to grow in the future. Especially if they got married and had kids and she couldn’t work. It’s just a value difference that they have different earning drives and I think he low key resents and fears that he's going to be on him to be the $$$ provider. That’s why the debt thing was a touch paper. But here’s the thing, Riley is absolutely not a bad person for not having that $$$$ drive or potential. She provides support in many other ways and 60/40 may as well be 50/50, she's keeping her end up right now. But, she’s just made different choices and isn’t prioritizing earning like HE IS. And as such it’s ON HIM to accept that he’s always going to be the high earner in the relationship. If he can’t do that he should BREAK UP with her and go find a girl who matches his potential if it means that much to him. But he can’t hold it over Riley. She’s a good and generous person in many, many ways, she's says she's going into mental health counseling (so needed, so poorly paid). It’s on him to overcome his fear and resentment. HE needs the relationship counseling. I say this as a guy who earns 10x more than my wife. I work in the energy sector, she’s a PT. I’ve simply had to get used to the disparity in earnings over the years, which has only grown. As has she. She works hard, she’s very driven to provide great care to her clients, but PTs simply don’t earn what Petroleum Engineers do for the same level of education and effort. I wish they did, so does my wife. But them’s the breaks, live with it, I chose her after all which meant I chose her potential. Plus my wife has been very supportive of my career. We’ve lived and worked all over the world because of it and she has often put herself second. In some ways she has the right to resentment, not me. Bottom line, the guy's simply got to accept the earning disparity. If he can’t and it leads to controlling behaviors, fear and resentment then he shouldn’t be with her. She’s 28 now and right on the cusp of decision time for marriage, kids etc and as such he needs to COWBOY UP and decide whether he should be with her.
That last question was the key, to me. Q - Can you live without him…A - I don’t want to. You don’t know how much better you should have it, how much better a relationship could / should be and what you’re missing out on because the current situation is all you know. Please, you’ve gotta move on.
@@crabcake17 Thanks, that's a lovely comment. Honestly, I sympathize for the guy. I too grew up in a deprived background so I totally understand the PRESSURE this guy feels to provide security through $$$$ to himself and his loved ones but it's an INTERNAL pressure. He brings it on himself and it becomes unhealthy when he projects it onto his partner. A person HE CHOSE after all, who may simply not have the same drives and values in that area. So it's on him to "square the circle" on that disparity, not hers. It's not like she's some lazy gold digger just after his $$$$. She's a sweet, caring family oriented girl from the sounds of it. Whether he has the maturity to do that is another matter, but he needs to very soon. 28 is a tough age for Riley. It's decision time for their relationship one way or another.
Riley , Run, run, run! You deserve a man who cherishes you! Don't doubt your frustrations in the relationship. I considered leaving a man multiple times before and after marriage. He initiated divorce after 18 years and 2 children. I still have PTSD from the relationship and caring for him. Don't ruin you life with this man! I totally regret not following my gut feelings in the early years, and I would have avoided so many stress related health issues. This relationship totally changed me to someone I do not recognize. (I am now 71.) Take care of yourself; do not let this man consume your life!
Really need an update on this! There’s nothing that grinds my gears more than when people waste others’ time in a relationship. When things were hard, she along with her family supported him. Now when the roles are reversed, he breaks up with her. YIKES. You can’t rely on someone like that…
Finances in a relationship can be a HUGE deal. Especially if you have financial goals together (like buying a nice house, cars, starting a family, vacations, etc.) “Financial infidelity” is a real fear for people, especially ones that grew up in households that were poorly managed in terms of finances. So I 100% understand people that get anxiety about it or feeling a sense of distrust if someone randomly just accrues thousands of dollars in debt.
Agree - and the other thing is the caller didn’t “get out of it on her own” - she said she got out of it through an inheritance. I am sure her partner felt for the loss of her family member, but it doesn’t show that she is fiscally responsible.
If it’s not a 100% yes to marry you (after 6 years!!), it’s a no. You will find someone who is sure of you, don’t settle for this. A better relationship awaits you; someone who won’t hold things against you and who won’t keep score (where currently your boyfriend gives himself all the points and none for you because he doesn’t appreciate everything you’ve done and do for him).
What she does for him: family connections, home, cooking, cleaning, making all the decisions, fights for the relationship What he does: strings her along and shames her. Girl you want to MARRY this guy?? He's doing nothing for you, imagine how it'll be when he has you locked up
The comments are true. It sounds like neither want to accept anything money, help, etc from the other. Get to the root of that and you’ve found the answer.
one important thing to remember is that she accrued that debt during covid. I wonder if spending was a coping mechanism for the trauma of covid and hopefully her BF can see that it was out of character and was emotionally driven, not how she looks at money in general. He's right that unnecessary debt is irresponsible and keeping it secret was also not good but it seems so encapsulated to me
Yes, I thought the same thing. A lot of people drank more than usual or ate more than usual during the pandemic as coping mechanisms, so I also thought when she mentioned the timing that money became her coping mechanism. I command her for getting on top of it and reimbursing everything herself. That showed character and that's what he should focus on.
Andy's theory is right. He doesn't want to marry her. It's not because of the debt; that's just the reason that he's pinning it on because he needs one. My sense is that homeboy is comfortable - he doesn't want to get married and he doesn't want to break up. Riley said to bf, "do you want me to break up with you?" The truth is, the vast majority of people aren't going to say yes to that even if it's true. That question is putting the power in his hands and he knows it. She also knows what she wants, and she should move on.
I think she should list these qualities to herself and ask herslef if she wants to be married to somebody with a passive personality, someone who doesn't like to make decisions and someone who is comfortable sitting in your discomfort.
Love you guys. The Deathhead shirt was very fitting for your first ultimatum. My niece dated a man from college on. He told her he would not propose until he was 30. When he was 30, he did not propose. With great difficulty, she left him, found someone else, got married, and has a son. Her ex is still single. He sounds very similar to Riley's guy. Very technical, and logical, but not very emotional. I think he enjoyed my niece's company, but was not in love with her or perhaps does not even know what love is. I wish you the best Riley and look forward to the updates.
Did I correctly hear her say that she’s giving herself an ultimatum which is one to two more years from NOW?! Riley, why would you give him two more years of your life to figure this out? It’s been six already. Tell him what you want. Tell him you want to get married, and if he doesn’t then that’s fine, but you’re moving on. Don’t pride yourself in being patient. Telling him what you want is not an ultimatum and it’s not mean or unfair to him. You need to change the narrative in your head or this is dragging out for years.
It shouldn’t be an “if you don’t want me, let me go”. She’s handing him power he doesn’t deserve. She already has her answer…..he has NOT proposed. She needs to come out with “Clearly, I am wasting my time here. I want marriage/kids (etc) and time is bring wasted. I am moving out. I will keep you posted as to what day I will have my stuff cleared out.” In the meantime, make arrangements w where you are going. If he wants a conversation about ‘why’, take the opportunity to point out the indecisiveness, the lack of initiative/team work etc… The more money he makes, the more it will be your job to do EVERYTHING. And when you’ve had it and choose to gtfo, he will try to justify why he gets to keep all of ‘his’ money. It’s exhausting and depleting; energy and soul. The latter part was my story. After I was 100% done, he admitted he sucked the life out of me and implied he’d do better. It was SO too late. Be clear about what you’re willing to live with and what you will be unwilling to live with. No surprises and boundaries are everything. This guy needs to either be shocked awake or left in the dust. Today.
This sounds so much like a 3 year relationship I was in and my ex always leaned on my lack of degree as a reason to not marry me. I was in school at the time and it never was enough for him. Then I was getting closer to finishing my associates degree (while working a 7 year long career) and it was, “oh I just know I’m not ready. Maybe I want to go into the Air Force. Maybe I want to be a doctor.” He would have kicked it down the road forever if I let him. That’s what is happening here,
I don't think the ultimatum will work bc after they marry, he'll still be passive which I think is a trauma-related problem leftover from his childhood. When she said his childhood didn't allow him to have choices, that's terrible!
Infuriating that they split at that ratio when he earns 3x her 😡😤 And I know you guys briefly touched on it, but I think she’s really overlooked how much she and her family helped him financially! As if he would have been able to pay off his student debt so fast without saving on debt all those years! And having the luxury to to figure out what he wanted to do with the comfort of a free home. The actual nerve of him to shame her for a financial situation she pulled herself out of when he’s in such a good position in part thanks to her! 🤬🤬
This was so interesting and I felt myself changing opinion on this multiple times during the episode. When Andy asked If she could live without him and she said yes, that tipped me over. I agree that she can do better, the future with him won’t get better just because they get married and they seem too different. Great advice by Shandy as always!
I think it’s hard when you haven’t been in that many serious relationships. I always think it’s really important to consider if this is someone you should be marrying? He sounds like he wouldn’t be a good husband. And I think you were trying not to lie to them, saying your relationship was great. But what I’m hearing is that it’s not and maybe you don’t know what it’s like to have a good relationship yet. (I know that’s presumptuous). But, someone who will want to go therapy with you and share your beliefs in that area, respect the fact that you got into debt and then paid it off all on your own. Who builds you up and respects you. It’s ok to have standards. Since you are already pro therapy, I def recommend looking into codependency. I feel like you are taking slivers from him and feel grateful for it. (I mean change is freaking hard. I get it. And I know you love him.) But, the fact that you are paying 60/40 and he makes 3x as much as you… and he makes YOU going into debt a few years ago an issue, when he lived rent free at you, by kind of just taking advantage of the fact that you had a miscommunication. 🚩🚩🚩
I see the guy's refusal to let go of Riley's past debt as his severe lack of trust in her: I can see how learning about your partner's debt can create fear in someone (especially someone who has always had to worry about money), but doesn't Riley's excellent track record in the following years already prove that she doesn't have a spending problem?
Riley needs to stop letting this guy give excuses and not make it so easy for him to keep "kicking the can", so to speak. She is enabling this dynamic by only bringing up marriage in a joking manner. I think there's a good chance her having a serious convo with him and not making a joke about it could have a huge effect and make him take her more seriously.
I hope Riley gets the answers she needs with a direct and serious talk, but it may be difficult with someone so indecisive and passive. Wishing Riley the best of luck in whatever decision she makes! PS - I liked the how the movement of Sharleen's high ponytail is captured in the thumbnail! Your expression is so joyful!
I'm glad Riley called, she seems super cool, and thought you gave her great advice. She said he has no game and when she asked him what he would do if she, like Becca, proposed, he said "don't ruin the surprise". This makes me wonder if he's actually low in confidence to the point where he deeply wonders if he could be enough for her.... Some people may equate money with worth and since he lad little growing up and she did/does (through family), maybe he's just now feeling like he's "worthy"-its new to him. And possibly wondering if he in the long run can keep the finances going to support an entire family. Without knowing him , its difficult to know... just a WAG..
This is such a great point! I wonder if continuously bringing up the money issue too is a way for him to mask his insecurities and project the “not being good enough” feeling onto her?
I’ve listened to all your callers and this one broke my heart 😢 I hope they’re happy and that they both get what they need. It just sounds like a mild gaslighting situation. Couple therapy sounds like amazing advice!
I have to be honest that I think the boyfriend is never getting over her self-proclaimed frivolous spending to the point of thousands of dollars. That may not sound like a lot to some people but she spent it quickly on unnecessary things, regardless of whether or not she paid it back. All that being said, she's given this guy way too many years of her life with no promise of marriage which she wants. It's time to give the ultimatum now & get out. She deserves a lot better. Don't waste your good child bearing years girl!
A couple thoughts for Riley! 1) At this point, the money thing *is* truly just a convenient excuse for him to not have to be decisive. I would try to nip this in the bud completely and have a very firm talk with him about it. Whether you wait for it to come up, or whether you're like, "I need to talk to you about this" is up to you. But I would address it very firmly. Maybe say something along the lines of, "I'm very hurt that my past debt continues to always be a point of contention in our relationship. I feel like it's held over my head when the fact is: not only was I open and honest about it, but I was also able to correct it on my own. If that's not good enough for you and you *still* don't feel like you can trust me after that, then I'm afraid nothing will get you to that point. I need you to decide if you can let that go, or if you can't." If he can't, then it may be time to move on. I wouldn't even have it be called an ultimatum (the above basically is the "ultimatum": if he can't trust you, then you won't be with him). You don't deserve to have this held over you.
Wow doing a full call with a numb mouth sounds exhausting, and it was still such a high quality episode. I hope you got lots of rest afterwards! I also hope the caller ends up with an outcome that is best for her :(
Eh the caller and her man just shouldn’t be together… he’s making an excuse. All the things you’ve done for him and this is how he Carrys on ? Eh. It sounds like he doiesmt wanna be committed long term
I don’t think an ultimatum is even the answer, because who wants to feel like they have to force their partner’s hand to get them to commit? People waste their time all the time in order not have to deal with the uncomfortable reality of a situation. If he doesn’t feel this way 6 years in, I say move on and find someone else. You have so much life ahead of you and plenty of time to figure it out. Good luck to you, Riley ❤️
Her story is so vague. She can't retell any specific responses from him... I can't tell if he really used the money issue against her and the idea of marriage or if it's all in her head... I'm confused like Andy but more around her story... :/
Hi Riley! Ultimatums get a bad rap and I wouldn’t classify you expressing your needs in a direct and confident way as an ultimatum. “I love you, I want a future with you, I want xyz. If you don’t want those things then we are not on a path together”. To me this seems more like logic than an ultimatum. Ultimatum might threaten “if you don’t propose, we’re breaking up”. It’s similar but has a WAY different tone. Wishy-washy dudes can waste YEARS dragging their feet and coasting along. Please don’t wait 1-2 years to have the serious conversation, Riley! It sounds like your guy may just need a blunt but heartfelt conversation to kick his butt into gear and do some soul-searching. One last thought….”If you don’t want to be with me, let me go” is melodramatic (I’ve said it and wish I hadn’t) and puts him in the drivers seat and you possibly feeling disempowered. Just tell him what YOU want and give him some time to process. ❤
Andy's theory for caller 1 was SPOT ON. Generally, men don't necessarily value how much money their partner makes. I think he has a serious case of FOMO
@lyndamontgomery6034 I never said men do not care, but men do not value a womans financial status, especially men who make over six figures as her man seemingly just may. We want a woman who is employed, of course, as the average man can not afford to take care of a family on a single income. But, generally, a woman's finances have nothing to do with our attraction towards women.
I'm only 12 minutes in but this man lived in her parents HOME?! And did he pay rent? Her parents are saints, my father would have sat him doen and said "are you engaged? no then go find a place to live." Her parents sound like very generous people and helped him out and his brother. Yet he broke up with her over the debt? This man is a user and selfish. If he lived in her parents house when he had nothing, which probably saved him 2-3k of monthly rent and utilities and probably groceries. No no no, dump this bum, hes ungrateful mooch. The fact he dumped her shows his true colours. He is NOT for better or worse. He's for himself darling. Yes he can be worried, usually when someone over spends on things they don't need there is another reason. Absolutely look into why that occured, but he saved probably 25-30k a year if he lived with her family. This man doesn't love you if he shamed you and throws it in her face, that isnt love. Run!
Andy and Sharleen are too nice and don't want to hurt her, bless them. She's too scared to address things, she is acting like she has to keep proving herself to him when he hasn't proven himself to be husband material. He cared more about MONEY than he did about her. I don't care about his past. She wasn't buying clothes but she bought furniture! That is a reasonable amount for a bed, sofa, and other items to furnish a home. He put money before you and the money was rather reasonable if it was just furniture. She deserves to feel like she can ask him "Do you see marriage and when, I would like to marry in 2 years. I want children in 5 years." 🤦🏻♀️🤦🏻♀️ Also he didn't beg or try to get you back! He is with you for convenience. He has no game, so why would he dump you to find another girl. It's all so easy. Covid forced you guys to quarantine together. That isn't romance, that doesn't show a man who is deliberately trying to be with you. I feel once she tells him what she wants he will make another bunch of excuses. Like "we need to save 150k for a down payment on a house." And I know I'm a jerk but this girl needs tough love and if he felt he could dump her over money then she should be able to question his desire to marry her.
I really appreciate this comment. I don’t usually like to call men bums and I’m sure he has some good characteristics. But, I also believe he is a user. He should be forever grateful for her helping him out in the start of his career. Any attitude that is not that is really really off. Him holding this over her head is horrible. Saying “I can’t trust you.” He’s treating her horribly. Girly, I don’t think this is the guy to marry. Many of us only get out after we have a couple kids and many more years. Then we choose the thoughtful, respectful men who we 100% are worthy of later on. I think the best thing you can do is break this off (as hard as it is) and work on yourself. Because you aren’t seeing how badly he is treating you. It’s really bad (imo). I’m being straight also because it’s important. I don’t think you know yet how bad it is. What is going on with him is that he is a user (like the previous commenter). I def recommend thinking seriously about getting out and starting the next chapter. I also have to say that him moving in when you offered him a place to stay while he finds a place… (and pretending it’s a miscommunication)…. it screams flaming hot red flag. And it may be gaslighting. I know that’s a word people don’t like. But he may have just pretended that’s what he thought you heard. I’ve just heard so many men doing this stuff… and have had similar happen to me, only to find out 17 years later they knew all along. 👎👎
She purchased furniture and he didnt notice until she mentioned the debt. He can't make simple decisions. He is not good enough for you, Riley! He is not being a good partner and you are too nice.
Therapy should help resolve this issue. Have empathy for his fear but he is going to lose a good woman. He's terrified that his life won't work out financially and needs help to have faith that it is going to be ok
Wait don't we all move our own furniture? It's always been me and my mother (89lbs). I also move my own furniture when I spontaneously rearrange the whole house. Someone tell me this is normal. 😂
I really wish we had asked if her partner has had any intimate relationships whether it be a caretaker or a partner or a sibling or what not with someone who has addiction. As someone who has had a partner with addiction, I can see this being more about the hiding the debt than the money. This is probably not about money! I don’t know what it’s about, but if I was in his shoes, after having my experiences, I would feel really triggered by the fact that she hid the debt. Especially because debt is often a symptom of addiction to drugs or counseling. I doubt Riley will read this comment, but if she does, I’d say to her, if your partner has had a history with someone who has addiction, try some counseling before you ditch the relationship. He just may really be struggling with the trigger of hiding debt.
Just heard this ep today and this was my EXACT thought. I'm surprised no one else seemingly considered this angle (though it does sound like regardless of the financial/trust issue, his passivity in general is a problem in and of itself)
Waiting for Godot. Now he's not communicating his fears about your trustworthiness AND he has fears that may come from his childhood financial situation. He sees her spending as a betrayal which is valid. He needs help to see it as a one time, covid-driven thing, not something that will happen again. I acutally get his fear but he is stuck
I think there’s deeper issues on both sides. They need to work on themselves & their relationship bc it doesn’t sound there’s clear & open communication. This is NOT GOOD for a marriage, so this would need to be solved. He seems shut down and really triggered by money, which is fair given his background but he needs to do work to relax a bit around it. He’s really massively dissociating. For Riley, there’s a part of her that’s hooked on unavailability & doesn’t yet stand in her full power and is being too accommodating. I suspect she’s used to being the peacemaker and good girl in her family. There might also be deeper reasons that lead to overspending. I see couples therapy as a must if she’s not ready to walk away.
At the risk of stating the obvious bcz this just hit me, how is her 4-digit, under $10K spending spree a “crime” AT ALL when it was HER money she spent (they’re not married or engaged), on items they share the use of vs more frivolous things, and that she has paid off??? Am I crazy, what am I missing here?
That last question was the key, to me. Q - Can you live without him…A - I don’t want to. You don’t know how much better you should have it, how much better a relationship could / should be and what you’re missing out on because the current situation is all you know. Please, you’ve gotta move on.
I WILL VOUCH FOR THE GUY because this caller is too vague, appears manipulative, and doesn't make a lot of sense. She may be lying about the amount of debt or lying by omission about not using his $. Why would someone who doesn't trust you financially give you their credit card - like ever especially when she claims him to be so anxious about money. My theory on what happened is he gave her the credit card for groceries and household stuff and did not expect her to use some on vintage furniture (btw, vintage furniture would have been EXPENSIVE, so hmm....). She could have also used the excuse that I supported you with rent (actually her parents did), so you should look past this. She obviously watched Ramit's episode and is trying to use the word "FRIVOLOUS" to draw sympathy from us about her purchases -- feels very scripted. Her excuse for spending a lot of money was bc she couldn't go out with friends bc of COVID? Huh? That didn't make sense either. It's called discipline and even if she paid off her debt, i have a feeling it will happen again bc she is used to others handing her money (inheritance and her parents). This makes her appear manipulative and this guy probably doesn't have anyone, so he's attached to her. She may have planned on showing him this video if it works in her favor is what I am sensing. I also don't understand why they were moving sm. P.S. that cat cup was very intentional in persuading Shandy to answer in her favor.
The boyfriend here just grew up entirely differently than Riley, who she said herself, she grew up always having family $$. The boyfriend obviously prioritizes "earning" money, and although he appreciates the family help, he does not look at that as Riley directly helping him financially-but instead as her family helping him. He places value on bringing in $$ because he did not have it as a child, so working hard has been instilled in him and that "drive" represents something far deeper than money to him. Riley stated she works for her dad. Guarantee you the boyfriend does not respect that in any way. Is it a job? Yes. Would she have this job if it wasn't for her dad being the one to hire her? Who knows-but clearly the boyfriend thinks she is a tad bit spoiled. She spends 10K on vintage furniture during covid, which may be super important to her, but he sees as frivolous. The boyfriend likely grew up resenting people like Riley, who were always feeling "safe" and "secure" financially because they had their parents wealth to fall back on. The bf likely would look at something like student loan debt as a legit debt..because it was something that he thought was of value, and something that betters the individual because it is adding to their future. But furniture? He might think it's ridiculous and unnecessary. And even though she "paid it off" it's the concept of spending that $$ to begin with. During Covid nonetheless-when people are trying to be smart with spending due to unemployment. It is the principle of the situation. Two totally different worlds and they prob both need couples therapy to work through it. His fears aren't totally misguided. And Riley is not wrong for not going off and starting her own law practice or something. If she wants to work for her dad and has wonderful family support-good for her and bless her family!
Totally agree with this! He doesn't respect her work, her income, and her approach to money. I think he likely resents that she has family she can fallback on.
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It sounds like they have very different family backgrounds and Riley has been more supported, by family and with finances, than he has. She had tuition and living expenses paid for. M+D have a large house. She works for her Dad now, she’s done interior design but is n ow back at school (part time?) and she earns a third of what he does. He on the other hand is likely REALLY focused on earning $$$, coming from a much more deprived background. It's a security thing for him. I get that.
I think he thinks that she doesn’t take earning good money seriously, that she simply doesn’t have a drive to be a high earner. And the thing is, he’s maybe right, it’s just not a priority for her and it’s not going to change going forward.
For HIM, already earning 3x more the gap is likely only to grow in the future. Especially if they got married and had kids and she couldn’t work. It’s just a value difference that they have different earning drives and I think he low key resents and fears that he's going to be on him to be the $$$ provider. That’s why the debt thing was a touch paper.
But here’s the thing, Riley is absolutely not a bad person for not having that $$$$ drive or potential. She provides support in many other ways and 60/40 may as well be 50/50, she's keeping her end up right now. But, she’s just made different choices and isn’t prioritizing earning like HE IS. And as such it’s ON HIM to accept that he’s always going to be the high earner in the relationship. If he can’t do that he should BREAK UP with her and go find a girl who matches his potential if it means that much to him. But he can’t hold it over Riley. She’s a good and generous person in many, many ways, she's says she's going into mental health counseling (so needed, so poorly paid). It’s on him to overcome his fear and resentment. HE needs the relationship counseling.
I say this as a guy who earns 10x more than my wife. I work in the energy sector, she’s a PT. I’ve simply had to get used to the disparity in earnings over the years, which has only grown. As has she. She works hard, she’s very driven to provide great care to her clients, but PTs simply don’t earn what Petroleum Engineers do for the same level of education and effort. I wish they did, so does my wife. But them’s the breaks, live with it, I chose her after all which meant I chose her potential. Plus my wife has been very supportive of my career. We’ve lived and worked all over the world because of it and she has often put herself second. In some ways she has the right to resentment, not me.
Bottom line, the guy's simply got to accept the earning disparity. If he can’t and it leads to controlling behaviors, fear and resentment then he shouldn’t be with her. She’s 28 now and right on the cusp of decision time for marriage, kids etc and as such he needs to COWBOY UP and decide whether he should be with her.
THIS 👆🙌
That last question was the key, to me. Q - Can you live without him…A - I don’t want to. You don’t know how much better you should have it, how much better a relationship could / should be and what you’re missing out on because the current situation is all you know. Please, you’ve gotta move on.
Wow can we send this comment to him. The man needs to read this. This was spoken from the heart and from real life experience.
@@crabcake17 Thanks, that's a lovely comment. Honestly, I sympathize for the guy. I too grew up in a deprived background so I totally understand the PRESSURE this guy feels to provide security through $$$$ to himself and his loved ones but it's an INTERNAL pressure. He brings it on himself and it becomes unhealthy when he projects it onto his partner. A person HE CHOSE after all, who may simply not have the same drives and values in that area. So it's on him to "square the circle" on that disparity, not hers. It's not like she's some lazy gold digger just after his $$$$. She's a sweet, caring family oriented girl from the sounds of it. Whether he has the maturity to do that is another matter, but he needs to very soon. 28 is a tough age for Riley. It's decision time for their relationship one way or another.
I think it’s time to put this relationship to rest. I don’t hear many positives to fight for. Life is too short ❤
The detailed splitting of money at this point in the relationship is exhausting.
I had the same reaction. I can't imagine still "splitting the bill" at that far into a relationship.
Riley , Run, run, run! You deserve a man who cherishes you! Don't doubt your frustrations in the relationship. I considered leaving a man multiple times before and after marriage. He initiated divorce after 18 years and 2 children. I still have PTSD from the relationship and caring for him. Don't ruin you life with this man! I totally regret not following my gut feelings in the early years, and I would have avoided so many stress related health issues. This relationship totally changed me to someone I do not recognize. (I am now 71.) Take care of yourself; do not let this man consume your life!
Really need an update on this!
There’s nothing that grinds my gears more than when people waste others’ time in a relationship.
When things were hard, she along with her family supported him. Now when the roles are reversed, he breaks up with her. YIKES.
You can’t rely on someone like that…
Finances in a relationship can be a HUGE deal. Especially if you have financial goals together (like buying a nice house, cars, starting a family, vacations, etc.) “Financial infidelity” is a real fear for people, especially ones that grew up in households that were poorly managed in terms of finances. So I 100% understand people that get anxiety about it or feeling a sense of distrust if someone randomly just accrues thousands of dollars in debt.
Agree - and the other thing is the caller didn’t “get out of it on her own” - she said she got out of it through an inheritance. I am sure her partner felt for the loss of her family member, but it doesn’t show that she is fiscally responsible.
If it’s not a 100% yes to marry you (after 6 years!!), it’s a no. You will find someone who is sure of you, don’t settle for this. A better relationship awaits you; someone who won’t hold things against you and who won’t keep score (where currently your boyfriend gives himself all the points and none for you because he doesn’t appreciate everything you’ve done and do for him).
What she does for him: family connections, home, cooking, cleaning, making all the decisions, fights for the relationship
What he does: strings her along and shames her.
Girl you want to MARRY this guy?? He's doing nothing for you, imagine how it'll be when he has you locked up
What a brilliant comment. 👍🏼🥰
KayRay Yes, only one side but the other side does not want to marry her and she wants commitment so she should move on.
The comments are true. It sounds like neither want to accept anything money, help, etc from the other. Get to the root of that and you’ve found the answer.
Agree. I didn't hear that they love each other. A lot of compromises on her part,. Are y'all really compatible?
one important thing to remember is that she accrued that debt during covid. I wonder if spending was a coping mechanism for the trauma of covid and hopefully her BF can see that it was out of character and was emotionally driven, not how she looks at money in general. He's right that unnecessary debt is irresponsible and keeping it secret was also not good but it seems so encapsulated to me
Such a good point! 👏
Yes, I thought the same thing. A lot of people drank more than usual or ate more than usual during the pandemic as coping mechanisms, so I also thought when she mentioned the timing that money became her coping mechanism. I command her for getting on top of it and reimbursing everything herself. That showed character and that's what he should focus on.
Andy's theory is right. He doesn't want to marry her. It's not because of the debt; that's just the reason that he's pinning it on because he needs one. My sense is that homeboy is comfortable - he doesn't want to get married and he doesn't want to break up. Riley said to bf, "do you want me to break up with you?" The truth is, the vast majority of people aren't going to say yes to that even if it's true. That question is putting the power in his hands and he knows it. She also knows what she wants, and she should move on.
💯
I really hope we get an update on this one!. Great insight and advice as always!
Andy getting to the bottom w truth..."She could do better"...that's what I love about him!! And he's hilarious!
This was too short! I want more😆
I think she should list these qualities to herself and ask herslef if she wants to be married to somebody with a passive personality, someone who doesn't like to make decisions and someone who is comfortable sitting in your discomfort.
Love you guys. The Deathhead shirt was very fitting for your first ultimatum. My niece dated a man from college on. He told her he would not propose until he was 30. When he was 30, he did not propose. With great difficulty, she left him, found someone else, got married, and has a son. Her ex is still single. He sounds very similar to Riley's guy. Very technical, and logical, but not very emotional. I think he enjoyed my niece's company, but was not in love with her or perhaps does not even know what love is. I wish you the best Riley and look forward to the updates.
Did I correctly hear her say that she’s giving herself an ultimatum which is one to two more years from NOW?! Riley, why would you give him two more years of your life to figure this out? It’s been six already. Tell him what you want. Tell him you want to get married, and if he doesn’t then that’s fine, but you’re moving on. Don’t pride yourself in being patient. Telling him what you want is not an ultimatum and it’s not mean or unfair to him. You need to change the narrative in your head or this is dragging out for years.
It shouldn’t be an “if you don’t want me, let me go”. She’s handing him power he doesn’t deserve. She already has her answer…..he has NOT proposed. She needs to come out with “Clearly, I am wasting my time here. I want marriage/kids (etc) and time is bring wasted. I am moving out. I will keep you posted as to what day I will have my stuff cleared out.” In the meantime, make arrangements w where you are going. If he wants a conversation about ‘why’, take the opportunity to point out the indecisiveness, the lack of initiative/team work etc… The more money he makes, the more it will be your job to do EVERYTHING. And when you’ve had it and choose to gtfo, he will try to justify why he gets to keep all of ‘his’ money. It’s exhausting and depleting; energy and soul. The latter part was my story. After I was 100% done, he admitted he sucked the life out of me and implied he’d do better. It was SO too late. Be clear about what you’re willing to live with and what you will be unwilling to live with. No surprises and boundaries are everything.
This guy needs to either be shocked awake or left in the dust. Today.
Well said. Sorry you were treated so appallingly, it is good of you to give such excellent advice.
This sounds so much like a 3 year relationship I was in and my ex always leaned on my lack of degree as a reason to not marry me. I was in school at the time and it never was enough for him. Then I was getting closer to finishing my associates degree (while working a 7 year long career) and it was, “oh I just know I’m not ready. Maybe I want to go into the Air Force. Maybe I want to be a doctor.” He would have kicked it down the road forever if I let him.
That’s what is happening here,
I think you're right
I don't think the ultimatum will work bc after they marry, he'll still be passive which I think is a trauma-related problem leftover from his childhood. When she said his childhood didn't allow him to have choices, that's terrible!
I wondered about this as well.
I think most ultimatums lead to resentment. If someone truly wants to marry you, they will.
Infuriating that they split at that ratio when he earns 3x her 😡😤
And I know you guys briefly touched on it, but I think she’s really overlooked how much she and her family helped him financially! As if he would have been able to pay off his student debt so fast without saving on debt all those years! And having the luxury to to figure out what he wanted to do with the comfort of a free home. The actual nerve of him to shame her for a financial situation she pulled herself out of when he’s in such a good position in part thanks to her! 🤬🤬
Exactly. He didn't pay rent for years, that's why he's debt free. She needs to get rid of him yesterday
@@ccrisc100 yesterday!! 👏🏽👏🏽
@@KayRay1966 as she should have! He’s not entitled to it
This was so interesting and I felt myself changing opinion on this multiple times during the episode. When Andy asked If she could live without him and she said yes, that tipped me over. I agree that she can do better, the future with him won’t get better just because they get married and they seem too different. Great advice by Shandy as always!
I think it’s hard when you haven’t been in that many serious relationships. I always think it’s really important to consider if this is someone you should be marrying?
He sounds like he wouldn’t be a good husband. And I think you were trying not to lie to them, saying your relationship was great. But what I’m hearing is that it’s not and maybe you don’t know what it’s like to have a good relationship yet. (I know that’s presumptuous). But, someone who will want to go therapy with you and share your beliefs in that area, respect the fact that you got into debt and then paid it off all on your own. Who builds you up and respects you. It’s ok to have standards.
Since you are already pro therapy, I def recommend looking into codependency. I feel like you are taking slivers from him and feel grateful for it. (I mean change is freaking hard. I get it. And I know you love him.)
But, the fact that you are paying 60/40 and he makes 3x as much as you… and he makes YOU going into debt a few years ago an issue, when he lived rent free at you, by kind of just taking advantage of the fact that you had a miscommunication.
🚩🚩🚩
I meant 40/60
Move on and find someone who deserves you. Doesnt sound like this guy will chase after you, so thats your answer. Good luck ❤
I see the guy's refusal to let go of Riley's past debt as his severe lack of trust in her: I can see how learning about your partner's debt can create fear in someone (especially someone who has always had to worry about money), but doesn't Riley's excellent track record in the following years already prove that she doesn't have a spending problem?
Maybe he doesn't se eit as excellent if she's often relying on her parents?
Riley needs to stop letting this guy give excuses and not make it so easy for him to keep "kicking the can", so to speak. She is enabling this dynamic by only bringing up marriage in a joking manner. I think there's a good chance her having a serious convo with him and not making a joke about it could have a huge effect and make him take her more seriously.
I hope Riley gets the answers she needs with a direct and serious talk, but it may be difficult with someone so indecisive and passive. Wishing Riley the best of luck in whatever decision she makes!
PS - I liked the how the movement of Sharleen's high ponytail is captured in the thumbnail! Your expression is so joyful!
I'm glad Riley called, she seems super cool, and thought you gave her great advice. She said he has no game and when she asked him what he would do if she, like Becca, proposed, he said "don't ruin the surprise". This makes me wonder if he's actually low in confidence to the point where he deeply wonders if he could be enough for her.... Some people may equate money with worth and since he lad little growing up and she did/does (through family), maybe he's just now feeling like he's "worthy"-its new to him. And possibly wondering if he in the long run can keep the finances going to support an entire family. Without knowing him , its difficult to know... just a WAG..
This is such a great point! I wonder if continuously bringing up the money issue too is a way for him to mask his insecurities and project the “not being good enough” feeling onto her?
I hadn't thought of this! All the more reason for her to leave since he's not willing to do therapy.
I’ve listened to all your callers and this one broke my heart 😢 I hope they’re happy and that they both get what they need.
It just sounds like a mild gaslighting situation.
Couple therapy sounds like amazing advice!
I want so many updates on these calls! Can we have an update episode soon?
I have to be honest that I think the boyfriend is never getting over her self-proclaimed frivolous spending to the point of thousands of dollars. That may not sound like a lot to some people but she spent it quickly on unnecessary things, regardless of whether or not she paid it back. All that being said, she's given this guy way too many years of her life with no promise of marriage which she wants. It's time to give the ultimatum now & get out. She deserves a lot better. Don't waste your good child bearing years girl!
A couple thoughts for Riley!
1) At this point, the money thing *is* truly just a convenient excuse for him to not have to be decisive. I would try to nip this in the bud completely and have a very firm talk with him about it. Whether you wait for it to come up, or whether you're like, "I need to talk to you about this" is up to you. But I would address it very firmly. Maybe say something along the lines of, "I'm very hurt that my past debt continues to always be a point of contention in our relationship. I feel like it's held over my head when the fact is: not only was I open and honest about it, but I was also able to correct it on my own. If that's not good enough for you and you *still* don't feel like you can trust me after that, then I'm afraid nothing will get you to that point. I need you to decide if you can let that go, or if you can't."
If he can't, then it may be time to move on. I wouldn't even have it be called an ultimatum (the above basically is the "ultimatum": if he can't trust you, then you won't be with him). You don't deserve to have this held over you.
Wow doing a full call with a numb mouth sounds exhausting, and it was still such a high quality episode. I hope you got lots of rest afterwards! I also hope the caller ends up with an outcome that is best for her :(
Eh the caller and her man just shouldn’t be together… he’s making an excuse. All the things you’ve done for him and this is how he Carrys on ? Eh. It sounds like he doiesmt wanna be committed long term
So happy you guys were brutally honest and asked her a lot of questions, definitely red flag 🚩 territory 😢😅
I don’t think an ultimatum is even the answer, because who wants to feel like they have to force their partner’s hand to get them to commit? People waste their time all the time in order not have to deal with the uncomfortable reality of a situation. If he doesn’t feel this way 6 years in, I say move on and find someone else. You have so much life ahead of you and plenty of time to figure it out. Good luck to you, Riley ❤️
Obviously thinking a lot about this couple, no matter what the origin of his passivity, you can't marry someone's potential
Her story is so vague. She can't retell any specific responses from him... I can't tell if he really used the money issue against her and the idea of marriage or if it's all in her head... I'm confused like Andy but more around her story... :/
@KayRay1966 yes! I would be very interested. Haha
Loving this episode and I'm not even half way through! The boyfriend sounds awful
Hi Riley! Ultimatums get a bad rap and I wouldn’t classify you expressing your needs in a direct and confident way as an ultimatum. “I love you, I want a future with you, I want xyz. If you don’t want those things then we are not on a path together”. To me this seems more like logic than an ultimatum. Ultimatum might threaten “if you don’t propose, we’re breaking up”. It’s similar but has a WAY different tone. Wishy-washy dudes can waste YEARS dragging their feet and coasting along. Please don’t wait 1-2 years to have the serious conversation, Riley! It sounds like your guy may just need a blunt but heartfelt conversation to kick his butt into gear and do some soul-searching. One last thought….”If you don’t want to be with me, let me go” is melodramatic (I’ve said it and wish I hadn’t) and puts him in the drivers seat and you possibly feeling disempowered. Just tell him what YOU want and give him some time to process. ❤
Andy's theory for caller 1 was SPOT ON. Generally, men don't necessarily value how much money their partner makes. I think he has a serious case of FOMO
@lyndamontgomery6034 I never said men do not care, but men do not value a womans financial status, especially men who make over six figures as her man seemingly just may. We want a woman who is employed, of course, as the average man can not afford to take care of a family on a single income. But, generally, a woman's finances have nothing to do with our attraction towards women.
I love the website!!! I had to go look at it after you mentioned it in an ad and it's so cool! Beautiful website
I'm only 12 minutes in but this man lived in her parents HOME?! And did he pay rent? Her parents are saints, my father would have sat him doen and said "are you engaged? no then go find a place to live."
Her parents sound like very generous people and helped him out and his brother. Yet he broke up with her over the debt? This man is a user and selfish. If he lived in her parents house when he had nothing, which probably saved him 2-3k of monthly rent and utilities and probably groceries.
No no no, dump this bum, hes ungrateful mooch. The fact he dumped her shows his true colours. He is NOT for better or worse. He's for himself darling.
Yes he can be worried, usually when someone over spends on things they don't need there is another reason. Absolutely look into why that occured, but he saved probably 25-30k a year if he lived with her family.
This man doesn't love you if he shamed you and throws it in her face, that isnt love. Run!
Andy and Sharleen are too nice and don't want to hurt her, bless them.
She's too scared to address things, she is acting like she has to keep proving herself to him when he hasn't proven himself to be husband material. He cared more about MONEY than he did about her. I don't care about his past.
She wasn't buying clothes but she bought furniture! That is a reasonable amount for a bed, sofa, and other items to furnish a home.
He put money before you and the money was rather reasonable if it was just furniture.
She deserves to feel like she can ask him "Do you see marriage and when, I would like to marry in 2 years. I want children in 5 years."
🤦🏻♀️🤦🏻♀️ Also he didn't beg or try to get you back! He is with you for convenience. He has no game, so why would he dump you to find another girl. It's all so easy.
Covid forced you guys to quarantine together. That isn't romance, that doesn't show a man who is deliberately trying to be with you.
I feel once she tells him what she wants he will make another bunch of excuses. Like "we need to save 150k for a down payment on a house." And I know I'm a jerk but this girl needs tough love and if he felt he could dump her over money then she should be able to question his desire to marry her.
I really appreciate this comment. I don’t usually like to call men bums and I’m sure he has some good characteristics. But, I also believe he is a user.
He should be forever grateful for her helping him out in the start of his career. Any attitude that is not that is really really off. Him holding this over her head is horrible. Saying “I can’t trust you.”
He’s treating her horribly. Girly, I don’t think this is the guy to marry. Many of us only get out after we have a couple kids and many more years. Then we choose the thoughtful, respectful men who we 100% are worthy of later on. I think the best thing you can do is break this off (as hard as it is) and work on yourself.
Because you aren’t seeing how badly he is treating you. It’s really bad (imo). I’m being straight also because it’s important. I don’t think you know yet how bad it is.
What is going on with him is that he is a user (like the previous commenter). I def recommend thinking seriously about getting out and starting the next chapter.
I also have to say that him moving in when you offered him a place to stay while he finds a place… (and pretending it’s a miscommunication)…. it screams flaming hot red flag. And it may be gaslighting. I know that’s a word people don’t like. But he may have just pretended that’s what he thought you heard. I’ve just heard so many men doing this stuff… and have had similar happen to me, only to find out 17 years later they knew all along. 👎👎
Thought he heard (not you heard)
She purchased furniture and he didnt notice until she mentioned the debt. He can't make simple decisions. He is not good enough for you, Riley! He is not being a good partner and you are too nice.
Therapy should help resolve this issue. Have empathy for his fear but he is going to lose a good woman. He's terrified that his life won't work out financially and needs help to have faith that it is going to be ok
LOVE your outfit Sharleen!! 🖤💀
What is the depth and the quality of this relationship? What is she looking forward to? There's so much unclarity
Wait don't we all move our own furniture? It's always been me and my mother (89lbs). I also move my own furniture when I spontaneously rearrange the whole house. Someone tell me this is normal. 😂
Never in my life have a ever heard of people hiring movers. That’s what friends & family are for, and they do it for free 😂
Sharleen's advice to the first caller was on point.
I really wish we had asked if her partner has had any intimate relationships whether it be a caretaker or a partner or a sibling or what not with someone who has addiction. As someone who has had a partner with addiction, I can see this being more about the hiding the debt than the money. This is probably not about money! I don’t know what it’s about, but if I was in his shoes, after having my experiences, I would feel really triggered by the fact that she hid the debt. Especially because debt is often a symptom of addiction to drugs or counseling. I doubt Riley will read this comment, but if she does, I’d say to her, if your partner has had a history with someone who has addiction, try some counseling before you ditch the relationship. He just may really be struggling with the trigger of hiding debt.
Just heard this ep today and this was my EXACT thought. I'm surprised no one else seemingly considered this angle (though it does sound like regardless of the financial/trust issue, his passivity in general is a problem in and of itself)
Waiting for Godot. Now he's not communicating his fears about your trustworthiness AND he has fears that may come from his childhood financial situation. He sees her spending as a betrayal which is valid. He needs help to see it as a one time, covid-driven thing, not something that will happen again. I acutally get his fear but he is stuck
So many red flags in this relationship. End it or waste your best years with this guy only to end up back where you are or left.
I think there’s deeper issues on both sides. They need to work on themselves & their relationship bc it doesn’t sound there’s clear & open communication. This is NOT GOOD for a marriage, so this would need to be solved. He seems shut down and really triggered by money, which is fair given his background but he needs to do work to relax a bit around it. He’s really massively dissociating. For Riley, there’s a part of her that’s hooked on unavailability & doesn’t yet stand in her full power and is being too accommodating. I suspect she’s used to being the peacemaker and good girl in her family. There might also be deeper reasons that lead to overspending. I see couples therapy as a must if she’s not ready to walk away.
Maybe he wants to wait till he’s 30! She said, he said…don’t spoil the surprise! ???
It also stops her from proposing so he doesn’t have to say yes or no. Why would you want to force someone to be with you?
At the risk of stating the obvious bcz this just hit me, how is her 4-digit, under $10K spending spree a “crime” AT ALL when it was HER money she spent (they’re not married or engaged), on items they share the use of vs more frivolous things, and that she has paid off??? Am I crazy, what am I missing here?
Agree.... no crime, not even close. I wouldn't trust him after he used it against her.
That last question was the key, to me. Q - Can you live without him…A - I don’t want to. You don’t know how much better you should have it, how much better a relationship could / should be and what you’re missing out on because the current situation is all you know. Please, you’ve gotta move on.
There's no point in putting it on the table (the marriage talk) if your not willing or able to draw your consequences.
I WILL VOUCH FOR THE GUY because this caller is too vague, appears manipulative, and doesn't make a lot of sense.
She may be lying about the amount of debt or lying by omission about not using his $. Why would someone who doesn't trust you financially give you their credit card - like ever especially when she claims him to be so anxious about money. My theory on what happened is he gave her the credit card for groceries and household stuff and did not expect her to use some on vintage furniture (btw, vintage furniture would have been EXPENSIVE, so hmm....). She could have also used the excuse that I supported you with rent (actually her parents did), so you should look past this. She obviously watched Ramit's episode and is trying to use the word "FRIVOLOUS" to draw sympathy from us about her purchases -- feels very scripted. Her excuse for spending a lot of money was bc she couldn't go out with friends bc of COVID? Huh? That didn't make sense either. It's called discipline and even if she paid off her debt, i have a feeling it will happen again bc she is used to others handing her money (inheritance and her parents). This makes her appear manipulative and this guy probably doesn't have anyone, so he's attached to her. She may have planned on showing him this video if it works in her favor is what I am sensing.
I also don't understand why they were moving sm.
P.S. that cat cup was very intentional in persuading Shandy to answer in her favor.
The boyfriend here just grew up entirely differently than Riley, who she said herself, she grew up always having family $$. The boyfriend obviously prioritizes "earning" money, and although he appreciates the family help, he does not look at that as Riley directly helping him financially-but instead as her family helping him. He places value on bringing in $$ because he did not have it as a child, so working hard has been instilled in him and that "drive" represents something far deeper than money to him. Riley stated she works for her dad. Guarantee you the boyfriend does not respect that in any way. Is it a job? Yes. Would she have this job if it wasn't for her dad being the one to hire her? Who knows-but clearly the boyfriend thinks she is a tad bit spoiled. She spends 10K on vintage furniture during covid, which may be super important to her, but he sees as frivolous. The boyfriend likely grew up resenting people like Riley, who were always feeling "safe" and "secure" financially because they had their parents wealth to fall back on. The bf likely would look at something like student loan debt as a legit debt..because it was something that he thought was of value, and something that betters the individual because it is adding to their future. But furniture? He might think it's ridiculous and unnecessary. And even though she "paid it off" it's the concept of spending that $$ to begin with. During Covid nonetheless-when people are trying to be smart with spending due to unemployment. It is the principle of the situation. Two totally different worlds and they prob both need couples therapy to work through it. His fears aren't totally misguided. And Riley is not wrong for not going off and starting her own law practice or something. If she wants to work for her dad and has wonderful family support-good for her and bless her family!
Totally agree with this! He doesn't respect her work, her income, and her approach to money. I think he likely resents that she has family she can fallback on.