Retired controller here. If I gave you the number it was probably to have a discussion about an incident. If you didn’t call, I would elevate to the investigators at FSDO who would then decide if a violation occurred.
As a 25 year center controller(retired) and Airbus captain I can tell you for a fact that the vast majority of controllers and especially supervisors haven’t a clue what pilots do or how they do it. They know very little about FARs or the AIM for that matter. 95% of controllers don’t understand proper holding pattern entry. They have a rudimentary understand of some FARs but it just scratches the surface. When you make that phone call (especially to the center) you are talking to someone that hasn’t talked to an airplane for years. The last seven years of my time as a controller I was on a team where we investigated operational errors (where controllers lose separation), operational deviations (where controllers violate another controllers airspace), and pilot deviations. Most controllers understand the 7110.65(x) but that’s about it. On the flip side, most airline pilots are confused between a missed approach and a go-around. I educated many pilots on that procedure. The descend vias are another area where confusion exists with many pilots. If you decide to make that call be polite and respectful. ATC does not have the authority to violate you. It will ultimately go to the regional office and will be referred to the ACDO or GADO for action and that takes a long time. Many times if the controllers action are questionable or their phraseology is very poor the FAA will not pursue any action because they will publicly have egg on their face and most bureaucrat will avoid them looking bad like the plague.
They are now required to say “possible pilot deviation” when providing the number if in fact they believe there was one, so you aren’t going to have any doubt about the nature of the call.
I ignored the ATC after copying number after a pilot deviation for a mistake and next day received a call from FAA that wasn’t good. Grounded for 30 days. I believe if I would have just made the call it would been a better outcome.
@@LunnarisLPYou're a fool. After the September 11th attacks, they have absolutely HAMMERED anything or anyone doing anything other than the intended & safe flight that was predicted or predetermined. He got off INSANELY lucky by only getting a 30 day restriction.
I'm no pilot, but sometimes I go down the youtube rabbit hole and end up listening to a bunch of ATC transmissions. I've heard that 'possible pilot deviation' thing quite a few times, and I always wondered what that all amounted to. Thanks for sharing this!
Those are three words that really do get our attention as pilots. It is best to follow the advice of the attorney in this video. So what type of ATC communications do you listen to on TH-cam?
VAS is a great channel. And yes you can listen to some of it online, just like police and fire for certain areas. Or if you have a scanner you can listen to your local airport live. I can pick up aircraft on my hand held if they are close.
As someone who has had to call the tower/approach control I do recommend to call and understand what ATC is telling you. FAA is a good group of people/pilots if is was just a mistake and you have learned from it then they normally will either talk to you or give you some training. Be honest and they will go easy on you. Lie, and then will put the hammer down.
I filed an ASRS once when my engine failed on my first solo - that filing ended up saving me from my flight school. The flight school became convinced that the engine failure was my fault, but the report I submitted to ASRS didn't match with their interpretation of events. That got the maintenance department to dig further, and discover that the fuel selector was faulty and subject to popping out of detent, effectively cutting off fuel.
@@freedomfriday2.040 Happened on takeoff, 8000' runway - it was a non-event. Of course first time solo me disagrees and for a short while after I told wild tales of frantically trying to restart an engine at 100' off the ground. In reality - I closed the throttle and mixture and committed to putting it back on the runway. Called tower after landing again and informed them of the situation. **THEN** had a panic attack. I mostly give the credit to my instructor - he had done a fantastic job of teaching me to handle emergencies, and drilled into me the importance of a takeoff briefing. I don't think he expected it to be quite that important... Was able to coast clear of the runway and sat there waiting for a tow.
I was an ATCS for thirty-six years and when we asked pilots to call our number it was to discuss an incident or give information. I can guarantee you that if you do not call there will be ramifications that may not be favorable.
I was asked to call the tower on arrival to Alice springs Australia, just flown 4 hours in c182 across desset with sand dunes etc before gps positioning so i felt pretty pleased to find the town. Went up to the tower they said come and look at this. I go to the window to see a gallaxy(star lifter) from guam he is going to give us a demo as he is empty, well he did. What a performance seeing that mammoth aircraft virtually climb vertical. Very glad I went to tower!!!
This is why I want to use something like this at my work - instead of playing the blame game, fess up to your mistake, let others learn from it, and that will only make the company better/stronger.
@@falsedragon33 engineer: this will be hard because the only solutions we have so far are proven impossible to execute. Manager: there are challenges, but nothing we can't handle, and we're on track CEO: we pivoted and are right now disrupting the paradigm
Good point about the fact that sometimes they just want to talk to you. Heck I even heard a Kennedy Steve ATC recording where the pilots got the number because ATC needed info from them about a laser attack on their aircraft...something definitely meant to help them and other pilots, not get them in trouble in any way.
Brasher warning. Must you call vs. should you call. The answer is- call! I’ve not ever seen (within my facilities airspace) someone who called, listened intently and worked to ensure the situation was resolved, actually violated for anything. Be respectful, and listen. Mistakes happen. Your example of busting an altitude is the most severe I’ve seen anything happen to a private pilot. It’s almost never a big deal (unless there was a significant incident eg. Near miss or worse). Just don’t be a jerk- even if ATC is. (Yes, I work with a few people who are a bit more hard nosed than is necessary) but for the most part, we want to be able to simply put in our report that, “the pilot was talked to, and the situation was resolved.” Done and done. If we actually need to violate you, there is all kinds of paperwork and investigation nonsense that we need to do on our side. I REALLY don’t want to do any of that if I don’t have to.
"...paperwork and investigation nonsense that we need to do on our side. I REALLY don’t want to do any of that if I don’t have to." IT Guy here, Same in my world, Please for the love of god don't make do anymore work than I already have to do.
I flew through a stadium tfr unknowingly. My experience was not bad I called the number they gave me immediately. The lady from the FAA was nice and just wanted to make sure I was following the rules. I was a bit flustered about the whole thing. But it ended up fine. No fines or jail time. The FAA was more than fair with me.
I once violated terminal airspace because I got lost and when I landed they gave me a number to call. They just wanted to know if I was aware of the airspace restrictions. I told them what happened and that was the end of it. I don’t know what would’ve happened if I didn’t call, but I might’ve been cited for the violation. That’s a pretty serious thing.
The core aspect of "kinder and gentler" era FAA is that you can't be subject to license action for screwing up if you didn't do it intentionally, you admit to it right away and you agree to remedial training. As many have noted below, immediately calling the ATC and apologizing and saying you won't never do it no more sir gets you off the hook by statute. The FAA instituted that rule because in the old days it didn't matter if you were helpful, they'd still hammer you anyway, and it made people try to cover up their mistakes. However, this doesn't mean they WON'T hammer you. All they need in order to take the gloves off is a sign you DID do the bad thing intentionally, you're NOT sorry and you CAN'T guarantee you won't do it again. Failing to call the number when you're given a Brasher Warning is tantamount to ignoring a speeding ticket. What could be fixed small instead snowballs until your license gets revoked. There was a good-old-boy down at my local airport who got gigged for doing acrobatics without an acrobatics cert on his license. When the FAA sent him a letter, he sent them one back saying he was an American taxpayer and they didn't have the authority to tell him shit. Told everybody at the bar what he'd done, he was very proud of himself, everybody assured him he'd never hear from Uncle Sugar again. Two months later he gets another FAA letter, this one certified mail from the FAA, yanking his license for a year. They sent a copy to the airport manager too in case he wanted to play stupid. Ended up having a stroke in the interim and never flew again.
They will basically do 3 things. 1-tell you what happened, 2-ask you what you were doing, and. 3- get your pilot license # for the MANDATORY report. Everything is recorded and sent to FSDO. The ability for ATC at the local level to determine “no harm no foul” is no longer there (especially at large facilities. So, have your story straight and talk to ATC like they were the FSDO direct. FILE the safety report (best advice ever)
@@rkiheavy3002 Do you really do such things over the phone? I mean, your pilot licence could depend on it, and that's not something you want to do casually like this...
That is the dumbest idea. I am a lawyer, former ATC. If you do not call, as a controller I send the incident to FSDO. Had you called we would have discussed the incident.
In the second example, (at 5:00 minutes) talked of a surveying aircraft being given permission into a certain airspace etc.. To me, the thing that I want to make sure, is that the outgoing and incoming ATC are 'discovered' as to their issue (i.e., not telling the other what was going on at the time of changeover) and that there is something PROCEDURALLY WRONG with the changeover. In Other Words (IOW), covering up THEIR mistake -- and subsequently 'getting away with it' and 'not being held accountable for what THEY SCREWED UP. That is the problem right there. They (the ATC) screwed up and they are going to make the pilot either 'take the rap' or just 'bury it' so that no one is held accountable -- which *MIGHT* end up in a MAJOR change of procedures, and the ATC, just shoves it 'under the rug' -- which IS what's going to be done (if you didn't know). So NOW, you have (potentially) TWO ATC people who shouldn't be there, and they are going to get away with it "SCOT FREE", just because the 'issue' was solved on a more direct tier/level. What happens if this type of thing happens again? It should NOT have happened the first time -- let alone the second time, and the person(s) responsible are going to get away with it RIGHT FREAKIN' NOW. Do YOU think that anyone in ATC is going to 'man-up'? Wat's the old 'saw' -- 8 hours between bottle and throttle? How about ATC having just a few minutes between the two? Who is to make sure that ATC doesn't get away with this? The ONLY way to hold them accountable, AND have them understand that they were wrong (and then, without their knowledge, that they will PAY for THEIR issue(s)), is to get them to admit (and thus, SECURE THYSELF) that THEY screwed up and then forward it on to the appropriate FAA office and let that Office KNOW that it was ATC that screwed up and that they NEED to be dealt with. Otherwise, ATC gets away with THEIR screwup -- to screw another pilot at another time. Imagine that, ATC is screwing over a pilot, it is discovered that ATC used the same as mindset before and was wrong... Now you get to rid yourself of the TRUE cancer.
While on a PPL training flight the tower controller started telling me to get off the runway for landing traffic, we were in the middle of the rollout and had to hit the brakes pretty hard while heading for the edge of the runway. Being it was an old military field the infield was paved but there was a good lip to the edge of the asphalt risking a prop strike. There was no aircraft behind us, it was lined up for the parallel runway and my instructor was a pit pissed but said nothing until we were back at the tie down. He called the tower and spoke to the supervisor who definitely got an ear full about the controllers actions which resulted in the controller (trainee) being put on a probationary retraining program.
In reverse, when ATC commits an error (of any degree) affecting my flight, should I provide them with a number to call so we “can discuss the possible violation”? Not trying to be snotty, I’m serious here
First thing I do is ask for their number to discuss the error. Sometimes they may not even be aware they made the error. Second, If safety was affected in any way, I would recommend filing a NASA ASRS report and/or a safety report for your operation.
Fast forward to our discussion concerning the reasons you should call. There is a good discussion for those concerned about calling the number provided by ATC.
Many time while listening to ATC conversations I have heard where they messed up, got really snotty with the pilot and when the pilot asks for a number to call they (atc) refuses to give a number ... "too busy, no time for nonsense, etc. Ahhh The joys of having an ATC God-Complex.
If there was an error on the part of the controller, there are several computer systems that catch it and automatically report it up the chain. Then the controller "gets a call" after a day or two anyways. You aren't going to "catch" them by calling anymore than they already would be "caught." But if you want to call and discuss, by all means do so. As far as calling if given the Brasher warning, the only thing it can do is possibly get you OUT of trouble. If there is any room for discretion on the part of the controller, and you guys talk and they are satisfied everybody understands what happened and learns from it, it's probably finished at that point. You don't call? That report is getting filled.
The FAA is a very understaffed and underfunded admin. They tend to try and solve things the easiest way possible. They only go loud when someone acts like a fool or the individual leaves themselves vulnerable to being violated. If you did something wrong and you know it, but they don't say anything about it, you're probably safe. But don't ignore them if they say something. That tells them that you are and are going to be a problem for them. So that's when they say "Lets get rid of this problem before it takes up any more of our limited resources." And they drop the hammer on you.
My event was that a regional jet was on approach and his TCAS was issuing a Resolution Advisory RA, and I was the offending aircraft. Every RA I guess needs to be reported, so they wanted my contact information. I also filed the NASA report
I was going into Lake front, NO, La. I called the tower and told them I was in the pattern and was cleared to land, not #2 or #3. IThere were two aircraft on about a mile final, so to not obstruct their progress I fell in in front of them, wheels down and landed and cleared the runway as quickly as possible. The tower called me and told me to make the call. On the call, he started chewing me out for landing in front of the other two. He said he was going to report me. I found out that one of the other aircraft was one number different than mine, and the tower hadn't realized he had another aircraft entering the landing pattern. His mistake, not mine.
oh its happened to me. Its a heart stopper. Called a Brasher warning. I wanted to call ! It was a disagreement about my wanting a 3 min wait behind a jet ahead of me at BNA.
The FAA generally applies a 6-month stale complain rule. If an investigation into an incident is not started within 6-months, the FAA will most likely decline to prosecute. Note, only the investigation needs to be started within 6-months. Once an investigation is opened, the FAA can take its time bringing any legal actions.
I’m no pilot but isn’t there a electronic record kept by both ATC FAA and the pilot? Isn’t there a program to electronically to generate and file a NASA?
A twenty + minute video to discuss whether to call ATC when they invite you to give them a call? You can be sure the controller isn't calling you to invite you to lunch!! Don't call? you can count on a call or a letter from the FSDO with oversight of that airspace. ATC doesn't have authority to file a violation but you can bet they'll submit a report to the FSDO which CERTAINLY does have that authority. Why take that chance when a call to ATC may head off a report to the FSDO.
I had a incident on my solo flight. I did the 1st 2 solos with no problem but the 3rd one we had a new controller and she cleaned me #2 to land to a twin 2 miles out. I looked at two miles and no joy. The jet was about 8 to 10 miles out. Now she did not won't to rush me but I only had 1.5 hr. In the air and had never done a straight in approach. Now I had been flying all my life and had flown for years but when I passed the jet I was out of the airports air space and had to come back into the air space and land on a straight in over the water. It was a small airport in st Pete fl. Called Albert waited airport. I had to do a straight in on 36 over the water with no reference points it was fun. The instructor was pised off and we taxied over to the tower and he went off on her. I get why she did it but if I did not have the experience of flying all my young life I would not have made it in on a straight in approach like that. But I did and all was ok. All my instructor could do was yell and scream. I hope there is a way to relay info on the other side and report them when they mess up as well.
Just say “student pilot, unable” if you’re uncomfortable doing something and they’ll get you reworked. It’s important to let ATC know you’re a student they’ll take extra precautions to make sure you have a safe enough bubble around you. They can’t know the flight experience level of every pilot in the air.
@@zachschaneberger thats what she thought she was doing she knew I was a student pilot. Now I know what i was doing and I just held altitude till I had the field maid and slipped it in. But if someone else was there it would have been a big deal and the instructor was pist he was on the ground at the end of the runway and he sees me go from 800 to 1500 and fly away he was pist off. Runway 36 at Albert waited is 100% out over water its like landing on a aircraft caviar its fun.
There was an airline pilot who said he would defer this to his chief pilot and union rep, especially if they don't really know what they exactly did wrong. They'll sort it out in a 3 way call between the 3 parties.
If he is an airline pilot, and he defers it to his Chief Pilot in addition to his Union rep, his judgement should be questioned. The Chief Pilot should have nothing to do with it. Not to mention, the first thing s/he should do is to file a NASA ASRS/FSAP/ASAP report.
@@danjacobson9861 he said if and the big if is if the FAA wants to violate him based on what's said on that recorded phone line he wants to have his union and chief back him up. I'd assume the ASAP report would be filed by then but maybe it won't be of substance if the crew is unsure of what exactly happened. Maybe the crew screwed up big or the controller screwed up big without realizing it thinking the pilots were at fault.
@@alje311 Al, my point is that his Chief Pilot is not there to back him up. His Union is. Any airline pilot that turns to his chief pilot for help, is not long for the industry.
@@danjacobson9861 maybe his chief actually is a decent one I don't know. From the vibe I'm getting is if it's a minor issue go ahead and call but if you don't know why or think you might hang yourself in that call then defer to some help. In the airline's case the union, in GA's case an AOPA lawyer will give advice if you are a member.
@@alje311 Al. The way you are defending the concept of calling the Chief Pilot, I’m beginning to think that you might be the Chief Pilot in question. For any airline pilots who might be reading this, terrible idea. Do not, I repeat, do not call your chief pilot for help with a potential FAA violation. Even if your Chief pilot is a great guy named Al Je.
ATC here. 1. We have mando things we have to report. If you call or not, the report will be made with your Tail number any way so why not call? 2. ATC are not the police. We want to share the safety culture and simply figure what happened. Either explain a rule on the ATC side like how atc NEEDS runway read back. We also gather as much info as we can because of their is a systemic air space or procedure issue, it can be fixed. 3. FSDO doesn’t go after one time errors, it really has to be a many many many times issue with a pilot just refusing to learn and is overly dangerous that gets in trouble. Calling the tower should never be a scary thing. We’re not here to chastise you. Simply a conversation on what happened. 4. Possible pilot deviation, there have been times we’ve cleared you to land 16 Right. You land the left, we have you call, by the time you taxi in and we pulled the tapes, we apologize because we actually cleared you the left. We’re all humans who want everyone to go home safe everyday, that’s all.
I’m curious now, if ATC is the cause for the mistake/situation, are you held accountable or is it just a slap on the wrist? What I’m beginning to take away from all of these videos is that ATC operates with a certain air of impunity.
@@John-bl9ym we have ATSAP like the pilot atsa or whatever your abbreviation is. We also do systemic reviews of the situations, reports get posted nation wide to learn from. Just like pilots, if it happens a lot or a super bad infraction, certifications are taken away and more training is required or removal of position. ATC is a highly vetted job, and while human error does happen on both ends of the mic, it’s no longer the days of old where you mess up twice and fired.
If there are issues of which reporting are mandatory, then there is no purpose in speaking with the pilot other than to collect evidence. It’s the same reason a police officer walks up to your car after he pulls you over and asks you if you know why he pulled you over: the intention is to collect a confession. I’m not against calling, but this thread and most of the comments are all theoretical. The fact of the matter is a safety violation was observed by ATC, it makes no sense that they have any discretion on whether to report it or not report it and if that discretion exists, now we’re dealing with personalities and politeness as it contributes to safety. That’s an unsafe practice in itself!
@@avfan967 Apple and oranges my friend. A police officers job is to enforce the law. ATCs job is to keep you alive to go home to your friends and family. When a cop pulls you over, 9/10 you’re getting a ticket, he’s enforcing the law you broke. When atc has you call, yes we “have” to file a report. Even when we file, 9/10, you’re not going to hear anything about it. FSDO goes for the top 3% worst offenses as they don’t have time to go after every report. It also creates a paper trail. You come through a Delta once thinking it’s closed and don’t call, when it’s dead, nothings really going to happen. You do it enough I remember your callsign off ADSB, I call you on tower, CTAF, Guard and you don’t answer when I’m using ADSB for your callsign and you refuse to call me? You cross my delta not calling and I’m busy and moving planes all over for you, well, a reports going to be made, and that paper trail will be started. Everyone makes mistakes, we get a chance to explain procedures that are unique to the area a pilot may not be aware of, a rule ATC has to use a pilot may not be aware of, and a chance to just talk it out to keep people safe. It also gives the pilot a chance to say what was going on for them for our report, otherwise it’s just ATCs perspective on what happened. Maybe you had bleed over, squelch, some other distraction that we can add to the report to simply make the system Safer by fixing those things. These calls and reports are informational in nature, not to investigate. It is up to FSDO with what they want to do with the info.
@@charlescraft7169 Thanks Charles. Honestly, not trying to split hairs or argue, I agree with your POV whole heartedly. Just making a statement as to the purpose of the call - In the end just because a pilot calls doesn’t necessarily generate a get out of jail free card. You reiterated that point in a much more elegant manner. No doubt by your description it is a sensible approach but opposite to that approach if the FISDO wanted to investigate there would be an opportunity to hear the pilot side anyway. Again this is hairsplitting and frankly I would follow your guidance. In your description, those type of pilots seem more habitual offenders in nature (thinking of the Dude that busted and would not leave the Vegas BRAVO) and frankly scare the hell out of me. Thank you for responding. Again pretty sound advice on your part
I had an engine failure and landed with no damage over 20 year ago. I then contacted the FAA. This resulted in an no fault incident that followed me my whole life and surely affected my career. I will never call the FAA, unless in the presence of my ALPA union rep. or aviation lawyer.
@@gmccord1970 Because the NTSB classified it as an incident. Any flight control or engine failure is classified as an incident. Every airline has a box you needed to check that asked if you'd ever had an "incident or accident" on the application. These resumes were the first to be disregarded when they began searching for candidates, as the vast majority of incidents are attributed by the FAA as pilot error. I was never given the chance to discuss the incident. Normally a computer program discarded my resume before anyone could even look at it.
I'm amazed that this is a discussion item. You're a pilot. You agree to fly within the ATC system. Even if you're out in the middle of Plunk Nevada, as long as you're within controlled airspace as specified by the FAA or wherever you are, you are subject to those rules. The idea that as you're not legally obligated to call is a reason why you don't really have is just foolish. Grow a pair, make the call and be a responsible pilot for god's sake. Speaking from experience. I busted airspace coming out of Teterboro as a student in the early 80's. Was told to call, made the call, had a good conversation with the controller. Learned a lesson as a student pilot and no penalty came my way.
I usually call the number and give them the news that I'm off the market and am happy in love with my girlfriend but am very flattered that they gave me their number to call.
Many times there may be a violation but more information may be required. Most time nothing happens unless a separation error has happened. They may just be advising of an issue. But if you ignore the call the issue will probably be forwarded to the FAA quality assurance dept..... I'd rather make the call. You don't want to get the office people involved. I had an airline on a arrival to a large city. He was at 370FL and I gave him..... "fly heading 330 radar vector for a fix". He read back... "330 for the fix". A minute later he said.... "out of 370FL for 330FL. I said negative that was a heading not an altitude and stopped him at 350FL. He was still in another facility so I called them to let them know what happened. I shipped him to the low sectors and never said anything more to the pilot. No separation error happened so it was a non-event to me. But I found out later that the pilot called ALPA and they requested a tape from the FAA. Well......bad move. The FAA pulled the tape and found that the pilot committed a pilot deviation and moved to suspend the pilot and was set to go to trial. I had to meet with the FAA lawyers prior to the trial. He finally plead and I'm not sure what happened to him. I did find out that the copilot took the freq...but the Capt thought it was an altitude and started the decent. The FAA also wanted to know why I didn't turn the pilot in. Normally a pilot will ask are we "ok" before they go to the next freq. 99.999999% of the time there is no problem. A simple question could have resolved the issue if the pilot had a question if there was a violation.
If you have a legal question or need legal representation I highly recommend contacting Chris for legal advice or representation. Very professional. Thanks again.
Usually, but not always. But 80% of the time or so. If we or I am going to start a violation paperwork. I will make,, say the required phraseology on the frequency. "N12345, possible pilot deviation" Usually this is followed by a phone number. However, just exactly like you said in your video. Sometimes there might have been a mistake of or something, and it could have been a violation or maybe not but internally we dont think it warrants a violation but we want to make sure it does not happen again, or like you said we just want to clarify something then you may get a "phone number". Because just like you said in your video we want to have that longer conversation not on the public airways. Note most tower numbers are recorded. Good video and good conversation.
You dont have to but that will only make it worse if you did something wrong. And if you didnt do anything wrong why wouldnt you call and sort it out. They are not police they are not the FAA . However if you get the words {possible pilot deviation} you better call and sort it out .Taking A chance wont help keep your license.
Calling the number is one thing. Putting down something on your application in which the FAA already told you, “this is a nothing issue and won’t go on your record,” is called “throwing up on yourself.” Never admit guilt, especially since a “judge” (the FAA investigator in this case) already told you he squashed the case. That’s just dumb to report a “nothing burger.”
@@DataToTheZero HA! Another fellow pilot that remembers “Tower-Todd!” Man was he the worst! I remember a UPS pilot getting into with him once because the pilots didn’t repeat back the word “Heavy” after his call sign. It was a hilarious exchange between the two and the pilot was just clowning Tower-Todd. Another time, Todd asked if I had “Foxtrot” as I was inbound to land. I said, “negative, I’m too busy (alternator went out) and don’t have time to get the ATIS. So he told me to “remain clear of the Delta until I had Foxtrot.” I said, “unable, confirm clear to land 25R because I’m about to lose all electrical power.” He was so angry that he had to read me the current ATIS and that I wasn’t about to remain clear of the Delta. Good times.
@@alite0101 I don’t think so as far as ATC recordings go. But... Todd did make it on the show “who wants to be a millionaire.” He only made it to like the 3rd question if memory serves me correctly. All of us at the airport died laughing when he failed the show for a rather simple question, that even my 12 year old (at the time), knew the answer. Tower Todd retired about 5 years ago from KLGB. He tried to transfer to the airport in Maui to work the tower his last few years. An ATC supervisor I met once at LAX told me that Todd had such a horrible reputation amongst not only pilots but fellow controllers as well. Anyway his reputation preceded him and Maui Tower turned down his transfer request to work there. Now that’s bad! He was beyond “angry” and smug when working in the pressure cooker. He couldn’t control his anger management and many seasoned airline pilots and GA pilots would clown him back. It was the best entertainment on tower frequencies ever! I even had a pilot I met in Ft. Lauderdale once ask me if “Todd” was still at KLGB, when he found out I flew out of there regularly. He was known by many. Picture the complete opposite of Kennedy-Steve and with the uncontrollable temper of a spitting cobra. The only time he wasn’t funny was when he stressed out student pilots. The things people wanted to do to him through the microphone, yet can’t be talked about here due to TH-cam speech police. 🤐
After I received my PPL I just left PWK with clear skies and sunny west bound when I got about 10 miles there was a squall line with IMC and not being IFR I made a left turn back to PWK but I must have accidentally flown a little into ORD air space. So when I landed the tower told me to call the ORD tower ASAP. So I did and explained everything and told them that the left turn was my only way out and I did not know a clipped there airspace. They totally understood and told me to be careful next time .
Thanks for sharing your experience. It is always good to file a NASA Aviation Safety Report afterwards. To find out more visit asrs.arc.nasa.gov/index.html
As a controller I had to click on this video just for the title alone haha... I had know clue that this was actually a question for you flyers. From my side of the mic I can tell you if you hear the phraseology “possible pilot deviation” and you then choose to not call I would say you are going to get written up 99% of the time the remaining 1% you get lucky and we forget. However if you do call and act like a professional there is a chance that the controller deems the safety issue resolved and doesn’t proceed with the paperwork. Possible pilot deviation is what your listening for to know your in trouble. Anything else isn’t standard phraseology and your probably not wrong in not calling but you aren’t helping the “team”. I can also assure you that controllers get intense scrutiny from all sides in terms of mistakes. Not only do we get quarterly audits on time spent controlling we are also monitored by people in the faa who’s soul job is to watch radar feeds and request audio tapes for discrepancies. I have never liked writing anyone up however new procedures and operating guidelines have left us with less opportunities to let things go. The conversation y’all had is definitely an eye opener for me and was a good laugh. Good flight gents.
Personally I would be very hesitant to call. It's basically a legal issue if there is a pilot deviation. Cops have to read miranda rights for a reason. As a controller you work for the FAA and it's recorded for legal purposes. There should at minimum be a third party that runs ATC. If the FAA wants a more open environment they need to create one.
@@gringoloco8576 Controllers are not the sky cops, and in the absence of the words "possible pilot deviation" it MAY be in the best interest of your future as a pilot to make the call. As the video said (and the poster above), many times the phone number given out is to facilitate a dialogue to improve your operation or seek clarification. If something a pilot does causes an actual safety event (loss of separation, runway incursion, etc.), and it appears it is due to negligence or a violation, then the words "possible pilot deviation" will most likely be included in a transmission. If you intentionally violated a rule or if you may be in violation of the FARs, and you have some reason to fear a FSDO investigation, then perhaps your best bet is to contact a lawyer first. None of this is legal advice. I am just providing a perspective from the ATC side of the mic. ATC is not there to violate you, that's a whole 'nother part of the FAA. ATC is there to move planes in a safe and expeditious manner. Part of their job is to file a pilot deviation when it is observed. After that, it is out of their hands. While FSDO is under the same agency, it is completely different.
"be factual"....ah, but I hope you've heard about the story by various names, the one I heard was the blind philosophers and the elephant. Kind of hints at, there are about 7 billion to 8 billion versions of reality, many extremely similar, but there is occasional variation.
So if I call, I might prevent an investigation from finding serious and dangerous actions by ATC that need to be corrected? You presented that example as if it were a reason to call even though it endangers everyone.
When wearing the pilot hat we all want to be safety conscious and comply and make the call. As an attorney, this answer is not that simple. If you can readily be identified as the pilot, make the call, but just listen and don’t admit to anything. (Example: if you filed a flight plan and they have your name then they can put you in the seat) On the other hand, if they can’t easily put you in the left seat, I’d probably advise you not to call. Last legal seminar I attended at Oshkosh on this issue, two retired controllers said in most cases if you don’t make the call that’s the end of it. You call and identify yourself, you’ve just established the first element of your enforcement action. Most pilots are compliant folks, therefore, you will not just listen but also talk if you do call and admit to one or more elements that can be used against you. I call it the right to remain silent, but not the ability. So, call your attorney first.
That is the best advice call your attorney FIRST and if the attorney is willing I would even have them listen in on the call on 3 way that way they can tell you to shut up when you might incriminate yourself your best bet would be to call an aviation attorney.
At 7 mins 08…The waffle ends and we get down to the ATC stating possible violation and note this number to call. That’s when one knows you’re getting called to the headmaster’s study.
all they have to do is prove you were the one in the cockpit if you were vfr and didn't file a flight plan. almost impossible without photo. In court the burden of proof is on them, not you.
Retired controller here. If I gave you the number it was probably to have a discussion about an incident. If you didn’t call, I would elevate to the investigators at FSDO who would then decide if a violation occurred.
As a rule of thumb, if there IS a problem, ignoring the issue won't make it go away.
In general the sooner you deal with an issue the easier it is.
Problems *do* go away if you ignore them. But you may not like what you get instead!
I was an FAA ATC for 36 years and anytime we had a pilot call it was never anything 'bad' but to exchange information.
Is getting violated not bad?
@hunterham9414 I get that, but I thought it was pretty much "I have a number for you to call" meant that youre getting violated.
@hunterham9414 cool. I guess I had a misperception then! Good to know. Thanks.
Ignoring ATC's request to call seems like a terrible idea 99.9% of the time.
Considering it isn't a request.
But what if I don’t have a pen or pencil
@@My_Fair_Lady Yes because running from responsibility and continuing to put yourself and others in danger _is_ the correct thing to do!
As a 25 year center controller(retired) and Airbus captain I can tell you for a fact that the vast majority of controllers and especially supervisors haven’t a clue what pilots do or how they do it. They know very little about FARs or the AIM for that matter. 95% of controllers don’t understand proper holding pattern entry. They have a rudimentary understand of some FARs but it just scratches the surface. When you make that phone call (especially to the center) you are talking to someone that hasn’t talked to an airplane for years. The last seven years of my time as a controller I was on a team where we investigated operational errors (where controllers lose separation), operational deviations (where controllers violate another controllers airspace), and pilot deviations. Most controllers understand the 7110.65(x) but that’s about it. On the flip side, most airline pilots are confused between a missed approach and a go-around. I educated many pilots on that procedure. The descend vias are another area where confusion exists with many pilots. If you decide to make that call be polite and respectful. ATC does not have the authority to violate you. It will ultimately go to the regional office and will be referred to the ACDO or GADO for action and that takes a long time. Many times if the controllers action are questionable or their phraseology is very poor the FAA will not pursue any action because they will publicly have egg on their face and most bureaucrat will avoid them looking bad like the plague.
I couldn’t agree more.. lol. However, CALLING is not the same as ANSWERING QUESTIONS.
They are now required to say “possible pilot deviation” when providing the number if in fact they believe there was one, so you aren’t going to have any doubt about the nature of the call.
About 30 years ago I did a low speed (
No you do not HAVE to call, but a compliance oriented attitude goes further than an adversarial one.
this is just good life advice. people are people just talk to them and you can resolve a lot of conflicts
Amen Brother. Just freakin own it.
Enforcement through education
I ignored the ATC after copying number after a pilot deviation for a mistake and next day received a call from FAA that wasn’t good. Grounded for 30 days. I believe if I would have just made the call it would been a better outcome.
They pretty impatient though if they called you the next day and grounded you instantly.
@@LunnarisLPYou're a fool. After the September 11th attacks, they have absolutely HAMMERED anything or anyone doing anything other than the intended & safe flight that was predicted or predetermined.
He got off INSANELY lucky by only getting a 30 day restriction.
I'm no pilot, but sometimes I go down the youtube rabbit hole and end up listening to a bunch of ATC transmissions. I've heard that 'possible pilot deviation' thing quite a few times, and I always wondered what that all amounted to. Thanks for sharing this!
Those are three words that really do get our attention as pilots. It is best to follow the advice of the attorney in this video. So what type of ATC communications do you listen to on TH-cam?
@@AviationCareersPodcast contents from VASAviation
So many apps you can actually download air traffic control at any airport in the country its really cool I listen to SNA and others
VAS is a great channel. And yes you can listen to some of it online, just like police and fire for certain areas. Or if you have a scanner you can listen to your local airport live. I can pick up aircraft on my hand held if they are close.
@@biteme263 yea. I have a app that I get police and fire and some ATC.
As someone who has had to call the tower/approach control I do recommend to call and understand what ATC is telling you. FAA is a good group of people/pilots if is was just a mistake and you have learned from it then they normally will either talk to you or give you some training. Be honest and they will go easy on you. Lie, and then will put the hammer down.
I filed an ASRS once when my engine failed on my first solo - that filing ended up saving me from my flight school.
The flight school became convinced that the engine failure was my fault, but the report I submitted to ASRS didn't match with their interpretation of events. That got the maintenance department to dig further, and discover that the fuel selector was faulty and subject to popping out of detent, effectively cutting off fuel.
How has no body asked what happened?! Lol
I wanna hear the rest of the story!
So there you are, soloing, and your engine fails?
Do tell!
@@freedomfriday2.040 Happened on takeoff, 8000' runway - it was a non-event.
Of course first time solo me disagrees and for a short while after I told wild tales of frantically trying to restart an engine at 100' off the ground. In reality - I closed the throttle and mixture and committed to putting it back on the runway. Called tower after landing again and informed them of the situation. **THEN** had a panic attack. I mostly give the credit to my instructor - he had done a fantastic job of teaching me to handle emergencies, and drilled into me the importance of a takeoff briefing. I don't think he expected it to be quite that important...
Was able to coast clear of the runway and sat there waiting for a tow.
Hi brian... that is such a shame, all too common with flight schools.
ngl a flight school trying to pin blame on the student without properly investigating the issues sounds like a liability to aviation.
I was an ATCS for thirty-six years and when we asked pilots to call our number it was to discuss an incident or give information. I can guarantee you that if you do not call there will be ramifications that may not be favorable.
Right we all believe you
I was asked to call the tower on arrival to Alice springs Australia, just flown 4 hours in c182 across desset with sand dunes etc before gps positioning so i felt pretty pleased to find the town. Went up to the tower they said come and look at this. I go to the window to see a gallaxy(star lifter) from guam he is going to give us a demo as he is empty, well he did. What a performance seeing that mammoth aircraft virtually climb vertical. Very glad I went to tower!!!
It's hugely encouraging for me that pilots talk more like engineers than bureaucrats. This kind of candid openness gets rare in middle management.
Tell me about it 😒
As an Engineer of 20 years, I wonder what an engineer sounds like?
This is why I want to use something like this at my work - instead of playing the blame game, fess up to your mistake, let others learn from it, and that will only make the company better/stronger.
@@falsedragon33 engineer: this will be hard because the only solutions we have so far are proven impossible to execute.
Manager: there are challenges, but nothing we can't handle, and we're on track
CEO: we pivoted and are right now disrupting the paradigm
I never thought of the “number to call” as a request but a directive.
Good point about the fact that sometimes they just want to talk to you. Heck I even heard a Kennedy Steve ATC recording where the pilots got the number because ATC needed info from them about a laser attack on their aircraft...something definitely meant to help them and other pilots, not get them in trouble in any way.
Funny. I reported a laser hit on my aircraft and the FBI was calling me the next day.
Honest and respectful. Good way to go in life!
Honesty is always the best policy!
Brasher warning. Must you call vs. should you call. The answer is- call! I’ve not ever seen (within my facilities airspace) someone who called, listened intently and worked to ensure the situation was resolved, actually violated for anything. Be respectful, and listen. Mistakes happen. Your example of busting an altitude is the most severe I’ve seen anything happen to a private pilot. It’s almost never a big deal (unless there was a significant incident eg. Near miss or worse). Just don’t be a jerk- even if ATC is. (Yes, I work with a few people who are a bit more hard nosed than is necessary) but for the most part, we want to be able to simply put in our report that, “the pilot was talked to, and the situation was resolved.” Done and done. If we actually need to violate you, there is all kinds of paperwork and investigation nonsense that we need to do on our side. I REALLY don’t want to do any of that if I don’t have to.
"...paperwork and investigation nonsense that we need to do on our side. I REALLY don’t want to do any of that if I don’t have to."
IT Guy here, Same in my world, Please for the love of god don't make do anymore work than I already have to do.
I wish you'd say "issue a violation" I have unpleasant mental images of pilots getting violated now
Please don't violate me Brian.
@@stevecarter8810 Getting violated would teach you to straighten up and fly right, wouldn’t it?
@@dirkhamilton2709 lol, this had the same effect in my notifications as what caused my original complaint! ew
Skip the first 1:45 of the video unless you want to hear them ask the question of the video a bunch of times.
But if ATC gives you a number to call, should you make that call?
I don't know, should you make that call?
@@Anonymous-pm7jf maybe it is a good idea. But what do you think?
I flew through a stadium tfr unknowingly. My experience was not bad I called the number they gave me immediately. The lady from the FAA was nice and just wanted to make sure I was following the rules. I was a bit flustered about the whole thing. But it ended up fine. No fines or jail time. The FAA was more than fair with me.
I once violated terminal airspace because I got lost and when I landed they gave me a number to call. They just wanted to know if I was aware of the airspace restrictions. I told them what happened and that was the end of it.
I don’t know what would’ve happened if I didn’t call, but I might’ve been cited for the violation. That’s a pretty serious thing.
The core aspect of "kinder and gentler" era FAA is that you can't be subject to license action for screwing up if you didn't do it intentionally, you admit to it right away and you agree to remedial training. As many have noted below, immediately calling the ATC and apologizing and saying you won't never do it no more sir gets you off the hook by statute. The FAA instituted that rule because in the old days it didn't matter if you were helpful, they'd still hammer you anyway, and it made people try to cover up their mistakes.
However, this doesn't mean they WON'T hammer you. All they need in order to take the gloves off is a sign you DID do the bad thing intentionally, you're NOT sorry and you CAN'T guarantee you won't do it again. Failing to call the number when you're given a Brasher Warning is tantamount to ignoring a speeding ticket. What could be fixed small instead snowballs until your license gets revoked.
There was a good-old-boy down at my local airport who got gigged for doing acrobatics without an acrobatics cert on his license. When the FAA sent him a letter, he sent them one back saying he was an American taxpayer and they didn't have the authority to tell him shit. Told everybody at the bar what he'd done, he was very proud of himself, everybody assured him he'd never hear from Uncle Sugar again. Two months later he gets another FAA letter, this one certified mail from the FAA, yanking his license for a year. They sent a copy to the airport manager too in case he wanted to play stupid. Ended up having a stroke in the interim and never flew again.
I wasn't flying, I was travelling!
ROFL
They taxied the whole way there. Then the airport didn't have a fringe to its flag.
🤣
Kindly keep sovereign citizenry out of the airspace. Enough Karens to be found in cattle class.
@@ltmundy1164 It's a joke buddy
So if, let's say I'm landing at SNA and I am cleared to land on 20L but instead I land on Charlie. Should I call the number then?
Only if your name is Harrison.
Yes, be very polite. Apologize, for any miscommunications. You didn’t mean to cause any problems.
I’ve been told to call tower multiple times at a few different airports and never once was it anything ever bad nor did I expect to hear anything bad.
You call the number and get, Hi, We have been trying to reach you about your auto warranty.
Hi, this is the FAA. We want you to send us $300 in Itune cards.
Step 1: File NASA report
Step 2: Call and be polite; never be arrogant
Step 3: Continue to enjoy flying!!!
I’m not a pilot but this sounds like sound advice.
Good answer.
They will basically do 3 things. 1-tell you what happened, 2-ask you what you were doing, and. 3- get your pilot license # for the MANDATORY report. Everything is recorded and sent to FSDO. The ability for ATC at the local level to determine “no harm no foul” is no longer there (especially at large facilities. So, have your story straight and talk to ATC like they were the FSDO direct. FILE the safety report (best advice ever)
@@rkiheavy3002 Do you really do such things over the phone? I mean, your pilot licence could depend on it, and that's not something you want to do casually like this...
have your lawyer call them.
That is the dumbest idea. I am a lawyer, former ATC. If you do not call, as a controller I send the incident to FSDO. Had you called we would have discussed the incident.
I would call in out of courtesy to check things out.
You would just call because the ATC sounds hot
In the second example, (at 5:00 minutes) talked of a surveying aircraft being given permission into a certain airspace etc.. To me, the thing that I want to make sure, is that the outgoing and incoming ATC are 'discovered' as to their issue (i.e., not telling the other what was going on at the time of changeover) and that there is something PROCEDURALLY WRONG with the changeover. In Other Words (IOW), covering up THEIR mistake -- and subsequently 'getting away with it' and 'not being held accountable for what THEY SCREWED UP. That is the problem right there. They (the ATC) screwed up and they are going to make the pilot either 'take the rap' or just 'bury it' so that no one is held accountable -- which *MIGHT* end up in a MAJOR change of procedures, and the ATC, just shoves it 'under the rug' -- which IS what's going to be done (if you didn't know). So NOW, you have (potentially) TWO ATC people who shouldn't be there, and they are going to get away with it "SCOT FREE", just because the 'issue' was solved on a more direct tier/level. What happens if this type of thing happens again? It should NOT have happened the first time -- let alone the second time, and the person(s) responsible are going to get away with it RIGHT FREAKIN' NOW. Do YOU think that anyone in ATC is going to 'man-up'? Wat's the old 'saw' -- 8 hours between bottle and throttle? How about ATC having just a few minutes between the two? Who is to make sure that ATC doesn't get away with this? The ONLY way to hold them accountable, AND have them understand that they were wrong (and then, without their knowledge, that they will PAY for THEIR issue(s)), is to get them to admit (and thus, SECURE THYSELF) that THEY screwed up and then forward it on to the appropriate FAA office and let that Office KNOW that it was ATC that screwed up and that they NEED to be dealt with. Otherwise, ATC gets away with THEIR screwup -- to screw another pilot at another time. Imagine that, ATC is screwing over a pilot, it is discovered that ATC used the same as mindset before and was wrong... Now you get to rid yourself of the TRUE cancer.
While on a PPL training flight the tower controller started telling me to get off the runway for landing traffic, we were in the middle of the rollout and had to hit the brakes pretty hard while heading for the edge of the runway. Being it was an old military field the infield was paved but there was a good lip to the edge of the asphalt risking a prop strike. There was no aircraft behind us, it was lined up for the parallel runway and my instructor was a pit pissed but said nothing until we were back at the tie down. He called the tower and spoke to the supervisor who definitely got an ear full about the controllers actions which resulted in the controller (trainee) being put on a probationary retraining program.
In reverse, when ATC commits an error (of any degree) affecting my flight, should I provide them with a number to call so we “can discuss the possible violation”?
Not trying to be snotty, I’m serious here
First thing I do is ask for their number to discuss the error. Sometimes they may not even be aware they made the error. Second, If safety was affected in any way, I would recommend filing a NASA ASRS report and/or a safety report for your operation.
Fast forward to our discussion concerning the reasons you should call. There is a good discussion for those concerned about calling the number provided by ATC.
Perfect example when the pilot needs/wants some clarification: th-cam.com/video/FMUJnFr99rY/w-d-xo.html
Many time while listening to ATC conversations I have heard where they messed up, got really snotty with the pilot and when the pilot asks for a number to call they (atc) refuses to give a number ... "too busy, no time for nonsense, etc.
Ahhh The joys of having an ATC God-Complex.
If there was an error on the part of the controller, there are several computer systems that catch it and automatically report it up the chain. Then the controller "gets a call" after a day or two anyways. You aren't going to "catch" them by calling anymore than they already would be "caught." But if you want to call and discuss, by all means do so. As far as calling if given the Brasher warning, the only thing it can do is possibly get you OUT of trouble. If there is any room for discretion on the part of the controller, and you guys talk and they are satisfied everybody understands what happened and learns from it, it's probably finished at that point. You don't call? That report is getting filled.
The FAA is a very understaffed and underfunded admin. They tend to try and solve things the easiest way possible. They only go loud when someone acts like a fool or the individual leaves themselves vulnerable to being violated. If you did something wrong and you know it, but they don't say anything about it, you're probably safe. But don't ignore them if they say something. That tells them that you are and are going to be a problem for them. So that's when they say "Lets get rid of this problem before it takes up any more of our limited resources." And they drop the hammer on you.
It's basically "I want to see you in my office"
Way back, I would occasionally fly an 84 280zx as an unlicensed pilot in an an unregistered aircraft. Never got a call from ATC. Darn it.
The Z is a legend.
Hate A frequency change with an area code in front of it!
If you decide not to call, you'd better have a very good reason.
My event was that a regional jet was on approach and his TCAS was issuing a Resolution Advisory RA, and I was the offending aircraft. Every RA I guess needs to be reported, so they wanted my contact information. I also filed the NASA report
I called and won 50 gallons of Jet-A. So there!
Yes but hope the number is disconnected
I was going into Lake front, NO, La. I called the tower and told them I was in the pattern and was cleared to land, not #2 or #3. IThere were two aircraft on about a mile final, so to not obstruct their progress I fell in in front of them, wheels down and landed and cleared the runway as quickly as possible. The tower called me and told me to make the call. On the call, he started chewing me out for landing in front of the other two. He said he was going to report me. I found out that one of the other aircraft was one number different than mine, and the tower hadn't realized he had another aircraft entering the landing pattern. His mistake, not mine.
oh its happened to me. Its a heart stopper. Called a Brasher warning. I wanted to call ! It was a disagreement about my wanting a 3 min wait behind a jet ahead of me at BNA.
is there a time limit on when the FAA can take action against you?
The FAA generally applies a 6-month stale complain rule. If an investigation into an incident is not started within 6-months, the FAA will most likely decline to prosecute. Note, only the investigation needs to be started within 6-months. Once an investigation is opened, the FAA can take its time bringing any legal actions.
No
I’m no pilot but isn’t there a electronic record kept by both ATC FAA and the pilot? Isn’t there a program to electronically to generate and file a NASA?
Not for GA. Scheduled CA has automated process to address potential devs.
A twenty + minute video to discuss whether to call ATC when they invite you to give them a call? You can be sure the controller isn't calling you to invite you to lunch!! Don't call? you can count on a call or a letter from the FSDO with oversight of that airspace. ATC doesn't have authority to file a violation but you can bet they'll submit a report to the FSDO which CERTAINLY does have that authority. Why take that chance when a call to ATC may head off a report to the FSDO.
can i get appl with visan in one eye?
Damn. I never got a request to call ATC in my 27 year career as an airline pilot. What was I doing wrong?
I had a incident on my solo flight. I did the 1st 2 solos with no problem but the 3rd one we had a new controller and she cleaned me #2 to land to a twin 2 miles out. I looked at two miles and no joy. The jet was about 8 to 10 miles out. Now she did not won't to rush me but I only had 1.5 hr. In the air and had never done a straight in approach. Now I had been flying all my life and had flown for years but when I passed the jet I was out of the airports air space and had to come back into the air space and land on a straight in over the water. It was a small airport in st Pete fl. Called Albert waited airport. I had to do a straight in on 36 over the water with no reference points it was fun. The instructor was pised off and we taxied over to the tower and he went off on her. I get why she did it but if I did not have the experience of flying all my young life I would not have made it in on a straight in approach like that. But I did and all was ok. All my instructor could do was yell and scream. I hope there is a way to relay info on the other side and report them when they mess up as well.
Just say “student pilot, unable” if you’re uncomfortable doing something and they’ll get you reworked. It’s important to let ATC know you’re a student they’ll take extra precautions to make sure you have a safe enough bubble around you. They can’t know the flight experience level of every pilot in the air.
@@zachschaneberger thats what she thought she was doing she knew I was a student pilot. Now I know what i was doing and I just held altitude till I had the field maid and slipped it in. But if someone else was there it would have been a big deal and the instructor was pist he was on the ground at the end of the runway and he sees me go from 800 to 1500 and fly away he was pist off. Runway 36 at Albert waited is 100% out over water its like landing on a aircraft caviar its fun.
Very good info - Thank you!
Very informative, thanks for the video 👍🏻
You are more than welcome. I am glad found value in the video.
There was an airline pilot who said he would defer this to his chief pilot and union rep, especially if they don't really know what they exactly did wrong. They'll sort it out in a 3 way call between the 3 parties.
If he is an airline pilot, and he defers it to his Chief Pilot in addition to his Union rep, his judgement should be questioned. The Chief Pilot should have nothing to do with it. Not to mention, the first thing s/he should do is to file a NASA ASRS/FSAP/ASAP report.
@@danjacobson9861 he said if and the big if is if the FAA wants to violate him based on what's said on that recorded phone line he wants to have his union and chief back him up. I'd assume the ASAP report would be filed by then but maybe it won't be of substance if the crew is unsure of what exactly happened. Maybe the crew screwed up big or the controller screwed up big without realizing it thinking the pilots were at fault.
@@alje311 Al, my point is that his Chief Pilot is not there to back him up. His Union is. Any airline pilot that turns to his chief pilot for help, is not long for the industry.
@@danjacobson9861 maybe his chief actually is a decent one I don't know. From the vibe I'm getting is if it's a minor issue go ahead and call but if you don't know why or think you might hang yourself in that call then defer to some help. In the airline's case the union, in GA's case an AOPA lawyer will give advice if you are a member.
@@alje311 Al. The way you are defending the concept of calling the Chief Pilot, I’m beginning to think that you might be the Chief Pilot in question. For any airline pilots who might be reading this, terrible idea. Do not, I repeat, do not call your chief pilot for help with a potential FAA violation. Even if your Chief pilot is a great guy named Al Je.
ATC here. 1. We have mando things we have to report. If you call or not, the report will be made with your Tail number any way so why not call? 2. ATC are not the police. We want to share the safety culture and simply figure what happened. Either explain a rule on the ATC side like how atc NEEDS runway read back. We also gather as much info as we can because of their is a systemic air space or procedure issue, it can be fixed. 3. FSDO doesn’t go after one time errors, it really has to be a many many many times issue with a pilot just refusing to learn and is overly dangerous that gets in trouble. Calling the tower should never be a scary thing. We’re not here to chastise you. Simply a conversation on what happened. 4. Possible pilot deviation, there have been times we’ve cleared you to land 16 Right. You land the left, we have you call, by the time you taxi in and we pulled the tapes, we apologize because we actually cleared you the left. We’re all humans who want everyone to go home safe everyday, that’s all.
I’m curious now, if ATC is the cause for the mistake/situation, are you held accountable or is it just a slap on the wrist? What I’m beginning to take away from all of these videos is that ATC operates with a certain air of impunity.
@@John-bl9ym we have ATSAP like the pilot atsa or whatever your abbreviation is. We also do systemic reviews of the situations, reports get posted nation wide to learn from. Just like pilots, if it happens a lot or a super bad infraction, certifications are taken away and more training is required or removal of position. ATC is a highly vetted job, and while human error does happen on both ends of the mic, it’s no longer the days of old where you mess up twice and fired.
If there are issues of which reporting are mandatory, then there is no purpose in speaking with the pilot other than to collect evidence. It’s the same reason a police officer walks up to your car after he pulls you over and asks you if you know why he pulled you over: the intention is to collect a confession.
I’m not against calling, but this thread and most of the comments are all theoretical.
The fact of the matter is a safety violation was observed by ATC, it makes no sense that they have any discretion on whether to report it or not report it and if that discretion exists, now we’re dealing with personalities and politeness as it contributes to safety. That’s an unsafe practice in itself!
@@avfan967 Apple and oranges my friend. A police officers job is to enforce the law. ATCs job is to keep you alive to go home to your friends and family.
When a cop pulls you over, 9/10 you’re getting a ticket, he’s enforcing the law you broke.
When atc has you call, yes we “have” to file a report. Even when we file, 9/10, you’re not going to hear anything about it. FSDO goes for the top 3% worst offenses as they don’t have time to go after every report. It also creates a paper trail. You come through a Delta once thinking it’s closed and don’t call, when it’s dead, nothings really going to happen. You do it enough I remember your callsign off ADSB, I call you on tower, CTAF, Guard and you don’t answer when I’m using ADSB for your callsign and you refuse to call me? You cross my delta not calling and I’m busy and moving planes all over for you, well, a reports going to be made, and that paper trail will be started.
Everyone makes mistakes, we get a chance to explain procedures that are unique to the area a pilot may not be aware of, a rule ATC has to use a pilot may not be aware of, and a chance to just talk it out to keep people safe. It also gives the pilot a chance to say what was going on for them for our report, otherwise it’s just ATCs perspective on what happened. Maybe you had bleed over, squelch, some other distraction that we can add to the report to simply make the system Safer by fixing those things.
These calls and reports are informational in nature, not to investigate. It is up to FSDO with what they want to do with the info.
@@charlescraft7169 Thanks Charles. Honestly, not trying to split hairs or argue, I agree with your POV whole heartedly. Just making a statement as to the purpose of the call - In the end just because a pilot calls doesn’t necessarily generate a get out of jail free card. You reiterated that point in a much more elegant manner.
No doubt by your description it is a sensible approach but opposite to that approach if the FISDO wanted to investigate there would be an opportunity to hear the pilot side anyway. Again this is hairsplitting and frankly I would follow your guidance.
In your description, those type of pilots seem more habitual offenders in nature (thinking of the Dude that busted and would not leave the Vegas BRAVO) and frankly scare the hell out of me.
Thank you for responding. Again pretty sound advice on your part
If its happened to you a lot like you said, you may want to reconsider taking more training.
I had an engine failure and landed with no damage over 20 year ago. I then contacted the FAA. This resulted in an no fault incident that followed me my whole life and surely affected my career. I will never call the FAA, unless in the presence of my ALPA union rep. or aviation lawyer.
How come it affected your career if it was a no fault incident? I mean you had an engine failure so what's the issue?
@@gmccord1970 Because the NTSB classified it as an incident. Any flight control or engine failure is classified as an incident. Every airline has a box you needed to check that asked if you'd ever had an "incident or accident" on the application. These resumes were the first to be disregarded when they began searching for candidates, as the vast majority of incidents are attributed by the FAA as pilot error. I was never given the chance to discuss the incident. Normally a computer program discarded my resume before anyone could even look at it.
@@nuclearrabbit1 That's absolutely shameful. I'm sorry that happened. What recourse did you have and how did you overcome it?
@@gmccord1970 It didn't actually affect anything, he just likes to bitch and moan.
@@nuclearrabbit1 That's an issue with the airlines then not the FAA. And this advise only matters if someone wanted to enter that profession.
Its better 2 fix things with atc then havin 2 deal with the faa
Interesting discussion, thanks for exploring this topic.
Thanks. It can scare some when given a number to call, especially new pilots.
@@AviationCareersPodcast Being a new pilot, I can confirm this is a fear of mine haha
I'm amazed that this is a discussion item. You're a pilot. You agree to fly within the ATC system. Even if you're out in the middle of Plunk Nevada, as long as you're within controlled airspace as specified by the FAA or wherever you are, you are subject to those rules. The idea that as you're not legally obligated to call is a reason why you don't really have is just foolish. Grow a pair, make the call and be a responsible pilot for god's sake. Speaking from experience. I busted airspace coming out of Teterboro as a student in the early 80's. Was told to call, made the call, had a good conversation with the controller. Learned a lesson as a student pilot and no penalty came my way.
Yes. End of video.
YES
I’m gonna take a wild guess and say this is related to pilot deviations
Wow!
So you spent 20 minutes just to say "Yes"
I usually call the number and give them the news that I'm off the market and am happy in love with my girlfriend but am very flattered that they gave me their number to call.
The question was answered in the first 1:40.
Many times there may be a violation but more information may be required. Most time nothing happens unless a separation error has happened. They may just be advising of an issue. But if you ignore the call the issue will probably be forwarded to the FAA quality assurance dept..... I'd rather make the call. You don't want to get the office people involved.
I had an airline on a arrival to a large city. He was at 370FL and I gave him..... "fly heading 330 radar vector for a fix". He read back... "330 for the fix". A minute later he said.... "out of 370FL for 330FL. I said negative that was a heading not an altitude and stopped him at 350FL. He was still in another facility so I called them to let them know what happened. I shipped him to the low sectors and never said anything more to the pilot. No separation error happened so it was a non-event to me. But I found out later that the pilot called ALPA and they requested a tape from the FAA. Well......bad move. The FAA pulled the tape and found that the pilot committed a pilot deviation and moved to suspend the pilot and was set to go to trial. I had to meet with the FAA lawyers prior to the trial. He finally plead and I'm not sure what happened to him. I did find out that the copilot took the freq...but the Capt thought it was an altitude and started the decent. The FAA also wanted to know why I didn't turn the pilot in. Normally a pilot will ask are we "ok" before they go to the next freq. 99.999999% of the time there is no problem. A simple question could have resolved the issue if the pilot had a question if there was a violation.
Couldn’t you just fly a plane with no radio and no transponder?
If you have a legal question or need legal representation I highly recommend contacting Chris for legal advice or representation. Very professional. Thanks again.
Chris really is a great advocate for pilots. Look for him on an upcoming video to discuss medical deferrals.
F around with the FAA and ATC and find out.
You were done flying anyway.
How stupid is that of courße you call you miss a chance to improve it happens to me in LOWL after an emergency and I learned a lot ,
Yes
Thats called compliance right?
Usually, but not always.
But 80% of the time or so.
If we or I am going to start a violation paperwork. I will make,, say the required phraseology on the frequency.
"N12345, possible pilot deviation"
Usually this is followed by a phone number.
However, just exactly like you said in your video. Sometimes there might have been a mistake of or something, and it could have been a violation or maybe not but internally we dont think it warrants a violation but we want to make sure it does not happen again, or like you said we just want to clarify something then you may get a "phone number".
Because just like you said in your video we want to have that longer conversation not on the public airways. Note most tower numbers are recorded.
Good video and good conversation.
You dont have to but that will only make it worse if you did something wrong. And if you didnt do anything wrong why wouldnt you call and sort it out. They are not police they are not the FAA . However if you get the words {possible pilot deviation} you better call and sort it out .Taking A chance wont help keep your license.
Calling the number is one thing. Putting down something on your application in which the FAA already told you, “this is a nothing issue and won’t go on your record,” is called “throwing up on yourself.” Never admit guilt, especially since a “judge” (the FAA investigator in this case) already told you he squashed the case. That’s just dumb to report a “nothing burger.”
They need tho have ATC deviation as well
No.
Lawyer speak to follow
You better make that call. It may save you from trouble. If you ignore them, they know where you live 😉
Believe me, if ATC asks you to call. There is a BIG issue, and 98-99% of the time its the 'pilot's fault!
I’ve always wanted to say to this one a-hole controller (aka: “Todd” at KLGB), “hey, prepare to copy MY number for possible CONTROLLER DEVIATION!”
Todd is a name that will live in infamy to all pilots who've ever had the displeasure of dealing with him.
@@DataToTheZero HA! Another fellow pilot that remembers “Tower-Todd!” Man was he the worst! I remember a UPS pilot getting into with him once because the pilots didn’t repeat back the word “Heavy” after his call sign. It was a hilarious exchange between the two and the pilot was just clowning Tower-Todd. Another time, Todd asked if I had “Foxtrot” as I was inbound to land. I said, “negative, I’m too busy (alternator went out) and don’t have time to get the ATIS. So he told me to “remain clear of the Delta until I had Foxtrot.” I said, “unable, confirm clear to land 25R because I’m about to lose all electrical power.” He was so angry that he had to read me the current ATIS and that I wasn’t about to remain clear of the Delta. Good times.
@@colt10mmsecurity68 any videos of tower todd online? im on the opposite side of the country but want to see what the hype is about
@@alite0101 I don’t think so as far as ATC recordings go. But... Todd did make it on the show “who wants to be a millionaire.” He only made it to like the 3rd question if memory serves me correctly. All of us at the airport died laughing when he failed the show for a rather simple question, that even my 12 year old (at the time), knew the answer. Tower Todd retired about 5 years ago from KLGB. He tried to transfer to the airport in Maui to work the tower his last few years. An ATC supervisor I met once at LAX told me that Todd had such a horrible reputation amongst not only pilots but fellow controllers as well. Anyway his reputation preceded him and Maui Tower turned down his transfer request to work there. Now that’s bad! He was beyond “angry” and smug when working in the pressure cooker. He couldn’t control his anger management and many seasoned airline pilots and GA pilots would clown him back. It was the best entertainment on tower frequencies ever! I even had a pilot I met in Ft. Lauderdale once ask me if “Todd” was still at KLGB, when he found out I flew out of there regularly. He was known by many. Picture the complete opposite of Kennedy-Steve and with the uncontrollable temper of a spitting cobra. The only time he wasn’t funny was when he stressed out student pilots. The things people wanted to do to him through the microphone, yet can’t be talked about here due to TH-cam speech police. 🤐
After I received my PPL I just left PWK with clear skies and sunny west bound when I got about 10 miles there was a squall line with IMC and not being IFR I made a left turn back to PWK but I must have accidentally flown a little into ORD air space. So when I landed the tower told me to call the ORD tower ASAP. So I did and explained everything and told them that the left turn was my only way out and I did not know a clipped there airspace. They totally understood and told me to be careful next time .
Thanks for sharing your experience. It is always good to file a NASA Aviation Safety Report afterwards. To find out more visit asrs.arc.nasa.gov/index.html
As a controller I had to click on this video just for the title alone haha... I had know clue that this was actually a question for you flyers. From my side of the mic I can tell you if you hear the phraseology “possible pilot deviation” and you then choose to not call I would say you are going to get written up 99% of the time the remaining 1% you get lucky and we forget. However if you do call and act like a professional there is a chance that the controller deems the safety issue resolved and doesn’t proceed with the paperwork. Possible pilot deviation is what your listening for to know your in trouble. Anything else isn’t standard phraseology and your probably not wrong in not calling but you aren’t helping the “team”. I can also assure you that controllers get intense scrutiny from all sides in terms of mistakes. Not only do we get quarterly audits on time spent controlling we are also monitored by people in the faa who’s soul job is to watch radar feeds and request audio tapes for discrepancies. I have never liked writing anyone up however new procedures and operating guidelines have left us with less opportunities to let things go. The conversation y’all had is definitely an eye opener for me and was a good laugh. Good flight gents.
Thanks for the input and interesting perspective.
Personally I would be very hesitant to call. It's basically a legal issue if there is a pilot deviation. Cops have to read miranda rights for a reason. As a controller you work for the FAA and it's recorded for legal purposes. There should at minimum be a third party that runs ATC. If the FAA wants a more open environment they need to create one.
@@gringoloco8576 Controllers are not the sky cops, and in the absence of the words "possible pilot deviation" it MAY be in the best interest of your future as a pilot to make the call. As the video said (and the poster above), many times the phone number given out is to facilitate a dialogue to improve your operation or seek clarification. If something a pilot does causes an actual safety event (loss of separation, runway incursion, etc.), and it appears it is due to negligence or a violation, then the words "possible pilot deviation" will most likely be included in a transmission. If you intentionally violated a rule or if you may be in violation of the FARs, and you have some reason to fear a FSDO investigation, then perhaps your best bet is to contact a lawyer first.
None of this is legal advice. I am just providing a perspective from the ATC side of the mic. ATC is not there to violate you, that's a whole 'nother part of the FAA. ATC is there to move planes in a safe and expeditious manner. Part of their job is to file a pilot deviation when it is observed. After that, it is out of their hands. While FSDO is under the same agency, it is completely different.
That happened to me only once. I didn't call. Nothing happened.
Call or don't call. When the paperwork starts, it doesn't stop.
"be factual"....ah, but I hope you've heard about the story by various names, the one I heard was the blind philosophers and the elephant. Kind of hints at, there are about 7 billion to 8 billion versions of reality, many extremely similar, but there is occasional variation.
So if I call, I might prevent an investigation from finding serious and dangerous actions by ATC that need to be corrected? You presented that example as if it were a reason to call even though it endangers everyone.
Also. If you have a chief pilot or DO let them make the phone call. Not you.
Call, but make it collect.
What if you accidentally land on a taxiway and you get a number? 😆🤣
As an ATC, my advice is to call. Ignoring the FAA isn't as bad as ignoring the IRS........
You are not required to call.
I thought you are supposed to put cellar phone tablets on airplane mode so they don't interfere with the tower and atc
You call after you land.
When wearing the pilot hat we all want to be safety conscious and comply and make the call. As an attorney, this answer is not that simple. If you can readily be identified as the pilot, make the call, but just listen and don’t admit to anything. (Example: if you filed a flight plan and they have your name then they can put you in the seat) On the other hand, if they can’t easily put you in the left seat, I’d probably advise you not to call. Last legal seminar I attended at Oshkosh on this issue, two retired controllers said in most cases if you don’t make the call that’s the end of it. You call and identify yourself, you’ve just established the first element of your enforcement action. Most pilots are compliant folks, therefore, you will not just listen but also talk if you do call and admit to one or more elements that can be used against you. I call it the right to remain silent, but not the ability. So, call your attorney first.
That is the best advice call your attorney FIRST and if the attorney is willing I would even have them listen in on the call on 3 way that way they can tell you to shut up when you might incriminate yourself your best bet would be to call an aviation attorney.
Pilot Deviation is the key word that you done F'ed up.
At 7 mins 08…The waffle ends and we get down to the ATC stating possible violation and note this number to call. That’s when one knows you’re getting called to the headmaster’s study.
Outrageous
Ben Shapiro’s an aviation lawyer now, makes sense.
all they have to do is prove you were the one in the cockpit if you were vfr and didn't file a flight plan. almost impossible without photo. In court the burden of proof is on them, not you.
Sure, recorded confessions are always a great idea. 🤦♂️
Harrison Ford: “I’m the shmuck that landed at Charlie”
@@nickgresla234 😂🤦♂️
Aren't all the radio transmissions with ATC recorded? It is a little late to worry about being recorded at that point.
@@bartfoster1311 pilots are not known for their massive intellect, apparently
Just make the call you might learn something