Anecdotal story here... I broke my back a year ago (compression fractured three lumbar vertebrae). The first piece to this is that the ER doctors commented that I was "lucky because my back muscles were strong and this likely helped the injury not be as bad". I had been training hard for three years at this point. Second, upon visiting the spine doctor for my three follow ups, I was told to take it slow and pretty much not do anything. Since I had been training for many years prior, I took this with a grain of salt. I went ahead and started doing body weight exercises earlier than recommended. Third, I got back into loading my spine pretty quickly after the injury (about 3-4 months I was starting to lift weights again). Here I am, a year later, and my dead lifts, RDLs, squats, all are almost back to where they were pre-injury. My back feels great. I'm a big fan of pushing it as hard as you can without being careless. In other words, if you feel sore and think you might be over doing it, then listen to your body and ease back a bit. Good technique and regular loading really helped me get back to where I was. To be fair in all this, spinal compression fractures are considered the good kind of breaking your back (if there is such a thing) and, obviously, if you can't do this level of recovery, that's okay too. Just do what you can.
I must of have the bad kind. I was doing over head presses with 185. Was used to it no problem. But I felt a slight slip in my back.. no pain so I proceeded naturally that evening. Next day at work I went to lift and my back seemed to have an (explosion) in it. Dr said ruptured disc. Years later I had an x ray back Dr said I had had a spontaneous scoliosis. Now I have very little back pain, but fear returning to Dead lifts and squats.But I do miss the power one feels when doing them. Heavy training makes the whole body grow.
The key word there is PROGRESSIVE And also making sure to not exceed your personal tipping point Spinal loading, unexpectedly, can definitely cause spinal injuries I burst my L4/L5 disc in 2003, and had surgery in 2005, which has left me in chronic pain since - so this topic is very important to me
Ditto, I also overdid it with the deadlifts (too much volume of high weights, too frequently) and ruptured a lumbar disc. Extremely painful at the time but thankfully 6 months later I'm mostly ok. Although I'm only deadlifting half what I was, I'm trying to slowly build back up progressively. Hope you're able to manage your pain and keep active!
I started strength training AFTER a back injury (big fall and direct impact on the lower back) and years of back pain and physiotherapy. It is THE SINGLE THING that helps me with the pain and keeps my back in shape and me pain free ❤❤❤
I love talking about this SLR almost daily and love having patients deadlift. To add to your argument about “lifting injuries”- anecdotally, when you have lifting injuries from population with consistent strength training habits they tend to have acute, short term, symptoms that resolve and person comes back stronger and more resilient. Injuries from people in the absence of any strength training habits tend toward longer recovery, chronic pain, kinesiophobic patterns, and overall worse health outcomes. “Can’t go wrong getting strong”
Decades of working in hospitals has shown me that the worst thing for your back is bed rest People on complete bed rest complain constantly of back pain. From what Layne shows in this video, it is obvious that your back muscles thrive on being used.
Hi Layne, as an enhanced bodybuilder i recently herniated a disc between l5s1 which gave me massive nerve issues and subsequent foot drop symptoms and total unilateral leg weakness. I found your recovery from your back injury with Stuart McGill massive inspiration and have seen you have since competed multiple times very successfully. Really appreciate the video
Totally agree. I’m telling pts the same thing every day - excess load is injury risk, under loading leads to weakness but progressive loading at the right levels builds tissue capacity and in turn reduces injury risk. One challenge is that connective tissues build capacity slower than muscle tissue - which means you might feel strong enough but not actually ready. Progress gradually.
Perhaps another way at looking at the point made in the video is to remember that strength straining trains the muscles, but not only the muscles. The bones and tendons are also being put through a workout during weight lifting exercise. The muscle, bones and tendons will all adapt to the training as a result.
N=1, but I have two compressed discs, and I herniated a lumbar disc in January of 2023 when moving one of our Hammer Strength machines, but I was able to resume deadlifting within a few weeks and have continued to do so since without any problems.
Excellent information here. I resistance train older adults with chronic illnesses and I see greater improvements in quality of life due to them getting stronger
I tweaked my back a month ago doing cable crunches of all things. I watched your video series with mcgill and Allan Thralls video on him training with a injured back. My back has been stiff every morning and sometimes uncomfortable while walking. But its been getting getter. I did 150kg rackpulls 2 days ago and my back felt the best it has ever felt in weeks. It has been very helpful to me to see that I should not stop lifting but just put more focus on having a tight core. Thanks man
Have a bad back due to a car accident years ago. I added squats and deadlifts in my routine over the last few years. When my back starts to complain (usually from bad posture) then I do something different in the gym until the pain goes away and I start lifting again. I try my best to keep my strength and mobility up to help me deal with it. Thanks for the video Layne. The videos you did a couple of years ago showing you training when your back was really hurting showed me that you can still lift if you are careful.
Posture has also not been shown to be associated with back pain or any other pain for that matter. PERSISTENT posture, however, is. Just want to clarify that. Source: Physiotherapist & nerd.
This video is spot on! I was watching a video where the author was talking about deadlifting - benching and squatting very frequently. While the loads were not extreme, the premise is totally flawed. Especially for compound movements, the need for adequate recovery is proven. Spinal loading can be very beneficial if it’s done properly, with adequate rest, and progressive in nature. The only times I’ve ever gotten hurt is when I didn’t allow recovery to take place. It’s when people say deadlifting is bad. So dumb! It’s how things are done that matters most c
The vast majority of LBP is non-mechanical. I deal mostly with trauma cases which inevitably become non-mechanical pain. And how to I approach most cases at some point? Spinal loading. You’re not broken, you’re sensitive. We can desensitize in most cases. The human body is not fragile
If you squat heavy a lot and then quit your back will hurt. When you start again you'll stop hurting. In theory, if you squat well into old age you'd go longer without back pain. But if you're gonna squat you'll have to do it forever because stopping will lead to hurt. This isn't an issue for many gym heads. This is just my experience though. I can't go more than 6-9 months without squatting or my back hurts. When I start again my back feels robust and doesn't hurt.
A 40min deadlift session doing 6 sets of deadlifts gives me no back pain whatsoever. Get me to assemble flatpack furniture, where Im slightly bent over something on the floor and my back is in absolute agony. Even a small stresser, if novel, can flare back pain lol
Glad to finally see people catching up to modern day science about back pain. Train your back and every part of your body in different planes with load and your body will thank you.
That's why I love cable felxion rows. You have to expose your body to those small form breakdowns because, in the real world and under heavy load, there's no way your form will be picture perfect.
Progressing from only static exercises to reverse hypers, machine flexion rows to seated round back extensions cured my back pain, now I just do cable and sometimes free weight flexion rows to keep my adaptations, almost going into a Jefferson Curl, feels amazing
Makes perfect sense Layne. Not thought about that before. We can get injured because our body isn't strong in that motion. There's a standing Trunk/body curl/deadlift I've seen some folks do and it looks dangerous...however, I guess it's not dangerous because they're slowly progressing the resistance in that performance. Hmmm very interesting. Thanks for sharing
Your opening described my situation. Causing me to fear dead lifting and squats. Pain was beyond description. At one time I got the deadlift back to 430. But later tried it again and reinjured my back at just 225. So I avoid deadlifts tho I loved it.
As my scoliosis started causing more problems i ditched the deadlift and the squat etc after years of training. All this heavy shit aint worth the risk. I try to stay lean and efficient these days with safer, usually less intense exercises. Prolly for the best long-term
My personal experience is that this all is true for me. I’m 50, deadlift over 600lbs. I train like a powerlifter but don’t compete. I also have kyphosis so I’ve got that rounded upper back and I’ve never had a day of low back pain in my life (the two times I thought I did turned out to be kidney stones). My lumbar vertebrae are extremely stiff and always have been. I’ve had kyphosis since I was a teen and I think my low back stiffness comes from that since my center of gravity is high and forward tilted. I’ve only been lifting weights for about 10 years and maybe 6 semi-seriously but till I was 40 or so I played basketball multiple times a week and regularly was a street skateboarder doing tricks and all that. My thoracic vertebrae will definitely round when I go heavy but my low back is stiff as a board. I’ve had shoulder issues forever and arthritis in my knees but my deadlifts have always been strong regardless of form but it’s the one lift and body region I’ve never hurt. For what it’s worth, I also never fail deadlifts once I get the bar to my mid shin, I only fail off the floor. I also have long arms, am 6’3” (or was when I was young) and lift conventionally for reference. I typically deadlift once a week.
Only time I've ever hurt my back lifting was exactly as described, I'd had taken a few months off after a powerlifting meet due to changes at work (3 different shifts in 3 months) and then tried to go a little too heavy literally my first time lifting again so definitely my fault. Also props to being slightly round back gang, I got so tired of people telling me I was doing it wrong. Won my last meet with a round back, lol.
I have lower back pain but I noticed it gets better when I do seated rows without chest support than when I do them with chest support. Apparently it helps to train those lower back muscles.
Ever so often I'll stop doing ab workouts and back pain will start to creep up. Ill then go back an add 3 ab sessions/week and that helps my lower back pain a lot.
Depends what you mean by ab workout. Sit-ups done excessively can cause a significant imbalance resulting in back injuries. What is really important to maintain a healthy back is GOOD CORE STRENGTH. Quite different to ab workouts
I can confirm that lifting decreases lower back pain, I have a herniated disc and sciatica, when I am lifting I have almost no pain, but it comes back when I stop lifting. But be careful though, I use low weights with high reps, and I don't mean very low, but like 60% of my 1rep max, and I only do it on a machine with back support.
Did deadlifts for 2 years since it was promoted left and right. Prior to that I was not exactly beginner: work related heavy lifting as logger for 10 years, some stone masonry, some hobby strongman stuff and occasional local competitions. Developed back problems with DLs withing 3 months. Started very mildly, light weight, not even close to failure, ever. Mindful of technique, bracing, video'd and analysed technique and form. Went on and justified them as they *have to be good for back, when done right* . Worst thing was that I couldn't pin my back issues to DLs for the longest of time. The injuries ocurred when simply lifting some light normal stuff after several days of DL session - like a piece of firewood or picking up some 30 kg (light for me) objects from ground. Usually unilateral movements caused the injuries. Never the on the DL itself. The relation is super non obvious, but I had no back issues 10 year before touching a barbell from ground, and then suddenly I had them monthly. Dropped deadlifts for good for a year. Apparently reversed back issues, at least no pain. Anecdote. Correlation. But this is my back, not doing deadlifts with barbell again. I've thought about getting a back MRI to see how f-d up my discs are, but it is expensive and thus delayed. It could reveal some specifics or debunk what I think DLs are doing bad to me. Funniest part is that lifting a 100 kg stone or 200 kg log all day is much safer for me than lifting 170 kg barbell DL for 10 reps (which was barely RPE 7-8 for me, as barely strength building). Unless DL numbers are goal, there are other much safer, equally good lower body stuff to do. Lunges, split squats, step-ups etc. Still develop a lot of practical strength and muscle mass. Example - try picking up a heavy stone without bracing your core - I dare you. You can do so easily with barbell. Some people never have back problems, can lift stupid stuff in all the wrong position. Others are not so lucky and I am not convinced DL-s and squats are cure for them.
Are you tall with short torso and long legs ? This build should not deadlift. But deadlifts in general are just bad, better do the 10 week online program by functional patterns ™
@@FlatEarthScholar Not really. I am quite well built for deadlifts - long arms, long-ish torso, medium to short legs. It is likely I have some disk problems developed from youth when I lifted ridiculously heavy stuff without thought and poor form.
Dude look at strongmen and strongwomen competitors.... And take things like the stone load for instance. I don't know how many comments I've gotten on my videos about the stone load talk about how I'm doing it improperly cuz my back is rounded (which is completely ignorant because it's impossible to load a stone with a straight back) . They get strong being out of position That's why they don't get injured or rarely get injured
I had a bulging disc around 24 yo. no spinal Loading, I sat in a desk chair at work then at home playing wow. so this is around 12-16 hours a day. I'm currently 41yo, I almost have no cartilage between L4 and L5. I have been lifting with high bar squats, I can say I am nearly out of all back pain. for me, 3x3 squats work for me. when I was doing 5x10's it was just too much. I also do some other workouts that help to increase back strength, suitcase carry walking lunges. this helps work the QL's it most of the motions while carrying a load.
I have a bulged disc at my l4 l5 and i can no longer do any spinal loading ( hack squats , squats ) or i pay severely for it. It was the loading that initially caised the injury and now i deal with it daily. Unfortunate but i will continue to train, just not those patterns.
I was gonna say but you basically said it at the end. LOL Sure people get hurt lifting. People also are in constant pain because they get older and have never lifted a day in their life. You can be in pain either way, which one is better for you being sedentary or active?
He's right, I had 4 bulging discs on my lower vertabrae due to injuries over time... For about 8 months i couldn't feel my lower stomach all the way to my genitals, it was insane, I wanted to off myself. Took me about 2 years to actually become functional again, I haven't stopped lifting since and ALSO added a ton of stability exercises. The lifting keeps my muscles in shape for protecting my spine... TAKE CARE OF YOUR DAMN SPINE! P.S. Foam Rolling, functional exercises for the stability of muscles is what got me out of it.
I understand tissues adapting to spinal loading but what about people with sciatic nerve pain? Should they also progressively load their spine? Layne made a brief comment at the end of the video about sciatic but no details were given.
Everyone I know with back pain is overweight and sedentary. Anecdotally, I’ve worked construction for 25 years and never had an injury or major back pain. I attribute that to consistent lifting.
@@MarquitoRH I’d bet my next paycheck that back injuries although extant in in athletes they are much less prevalent. You also need to consider the fact that while I do take training seriously I’m not pushing the limits of my body quite like a professional athlete. The point? Well, watch the video again.
Mix it up I would think. Don't need a neutral spine for everything you do, but if you round your spine all the time, it seems to want to stay in that position
If you're lifting far beyond what you're used to (in terms of weight or volume), you can do it with great form and still hurt yourself. Last time I injured my back, I threw some extra deadlifts into a session that had already worn out my back and I injured it despite using great form.
@@artvandelay1720 lets not forget that loading also means the casual 40 year old who doesn’t work out much who’s mom asks he to carry a heavy appliance for her for example
It's only a matter of time until that french girl squatting gets hurt. Back in the day you used to defend your good morning squat Layne against everyone saying you were gonna blow out your back. Then what happened?
If you have acute sciatica, I would suggest you first focus on getting the acute pain away with a physiotherapist and only then do the strength training. I think the most important is to find out the cause of it (mine was caused by blocked iliosacral joint) and then get rid of that cause before you put load on the spine
I fucked my back doing RDL, and 2 years in, it still bothers me and starts hurting if I deadlift over 100kg. Sure, anecdotal, but deadlifting heavy shit can absolutely "blow up" your back.
never do floor abs. the floor puts severe pressure on the lower spine. you will injure yourself 100% I only do crunches on a machine that does not put pressure on any of my lower back vertebrae. Pain free.
I don’t think excessive bending over when squatting is good for you, I also personally believe heavy deadlifts are not worth it. But, you know what is the worst?? Sitting around doing nothing.
If you lift with bad form, you can increase the load on specific areas which can reduce your recoverable volume. I was lifting with the bar too far forward for a couple weeks and I had to take a week off because my lower back wasn't able to recover from the increased load.
There’s no such things as bad form. Every body is different and we adapt to what we are exposing ourselves to. Injuries occur because of too much and too soon.
@@Filip-sp2vk If your technique differs enough from the technique you intended to have that it activates the muscles differently, that's bad form. Obviously my example was bad form because the outcome was that I could no longer handle my weekly lifting volume.
@@Filip-sp2vk If doing the exercise incorrectly isn't bad form, then basically nothing is bad form. Hip thrust bicep curls aren't bad form by that logic.
@@artvandelay1720 Hip trusting biceps curl is not bad on injury standpoint. It is bad because you don’t stimulate your biceps properly and wasting your time. You gotta realize that injuries don’t occur because you flexed your back or moved your hip an inch. Injuries/pain is multifactorial, and very often occur if you load your self too much, too soon. Ofc, additional risk is when you have poor recovery, poor sleep, stress etc.
Something else that wasnt mentioned in the video is the demographic of people who live sedentary lives, except for the hour or so a day that they strength train with lots of heavy compound movements. When you are chronically sedentary with poor posture and associated muscle imbalances, and then you take that and throw in compound movements with heavy weights, you’re reinforcing those postural tendencies and dramatically increasing the tension and stress of already weak/tight/inflamed/vulnerable tissues. This progresses with or without pain until the tissue ultimately can no longer handle the forces being incorrectly applied to them and the tissue fails.
@@logangaddy I walk/run 8 to 10 miles a day. I’m also a black belt in BJJ and train(ed) daily. I’m not or ever have been sedentary. I injured myself squatting. It is what it is, but it’s ridiculous to think that it’s not a potentially dangerous activity to put 400+ lbs on your back
Well if almost anyone rounds their back anywhere near near their 1 rep max deadlift they will suffer an injury, so that's why we use good form, but with lighter loads it's totally safe to round the back.
Spinal discs act as shock absorbers between spinal vertebrae. If you buy two identical pickup trucks and one is loaded with a very heavy load and the other one is loaded with a light load. Which pickup truck will need new shock absorbers sooner?
Yeah it's quite amazing, humans heal damage and repair ongoingly when it occurs....if you've ever sprained an ankle or cut yourself, or strained a muscle, it's amazing how it will heal up(unlike an F150). I hate that schools these days aren't getting good biology through to kids that are playing with tablets and missing out on education. :(
A disc is rated in 3 stages if it is damaged. Again, do not fit data to your feelings. Pain is not understood yet and no study has proven why some people have more pain than others. This is the first topic I think you are trying to sell your own lifestyle.
45... still hitting PR's. not Dr. Layne's number but deadlifting 500, 440 squat, bench 300, 225 ohp... never stopping. no health issues, no back, knee, shoulder pain.
I've been telling people this for like the last 15 years. Pretty much whatever the older medical journals or whatever my doctor says I just go in the opposite direction and I end up being right over time
I wonder what Stuart mc gill thinks about this, and what do you think about Stuart mc gill considering he has evaluated yuor back pain and his view is leaning towards a more biomechanical model of back pain, th-cam.com/video/4RpAqIupO-E/w-d-xo.htmlsi=cnJesoQ8VkIr-tcT
I have a long history with back pain. Turns out it’s related to weak hip muscles. Finding how to strengthen my glutes in the very specific way they needed has literally changed my life.
The fact that getting a back injury is something that CAN happen when you lift a little weird or at a strange angle is a testament to how the body is indeed fragile to a certain extent. The whole "the human body isnt that fragile" argument is ridiculous. Because we know just how incredibly fragile the human body is. You can die from hitting your head a little funny when you trip. If injury is possible then fragility is a factor, period.
Unless you lift like a complete moron, then you'll likely be fine. But you can be extremely unlucky, like me. 3 very badly herniated discs for completely unknown reasons years apart, just woke up with them. Go figure. Wasn't lifting at the time.
i have 3 herniated discs. i can deadlift 345 x 5, and the next couple days my back is stiff, cant touch my toes when i bend over for a bit, etc. but when i back squat even 225x5, i cant go to the gym for weeks, because i have debilitating back pain. from my own personal experience, spinal loading absolutely causes back pain
So much misinfo in this video!! Actually shows his understanding -- or lack thereof -- of all this -- pain, pain models, scoping reviews, what that scoping review was actually about, etc, etc, etc.......... Wow!!!
Stu McGill would tell you it's fine deadlifting with a rounded upper back as long as the spine doesn't move and the movement is done at the hips. If you move with your lumbar spine, that's how you will herniate your disc
Something else worth mentioning is the demographic of people who live sedentary lives, except for the hour or so a day that they strength train with lots of heavy compound movements in an attempt to compensate for the otherwise lack of movement in their daily lives. When you are chronically sedentary with poor posture and associated muscle imbalances, and then you take that and throw in compound movements with heavy weights, you’re bringing that into the gym and reinforcing those postural tendencies and dramatically increasing the tension and stress of already weak/tight/inflamed/vulnerable tissues. This progresses with or without pain until the tissue ultimately can no longer handle the forces being incorrectly applied to them and the tissue fails.
@@withindarkness I think what he means is sufficient mobility. If you want to overhead press correctly, you need enough shoulder flexion to reach 180 degrees to put the bar over your head. If you can't do that, you will probably not progress far enough or increase your weights very much. You'd need to do mobility exercices then do it.
@@davidethierapril6571 but thats not an injury predictor, simply a lack of performance. Form and mobility is absolutely critical to putting up your best numbers and getting good work in...its just not anything to do with injury.
Lotta caveats here. I don't care how much you work out or do physical therapy if you have severe stenosis or narrowing it's very very seldom that it helps and can make it worse. There's even more caveats. As someone with severe injuries from work and a car accident and multiple back operations and now I have a titanium lumbar I can assure you that I'm NEVER doing squats or deadlifts again. They hurt. Period. There's other ways to train without doing those exercises.
You should watch Layne's videos about his back injury and how he recovered to now finally being pain free. You will obviously have pain when you're restarting after an injury. That's not necessarily a bad thing. Get a good coach and push yourself and you can absolutely go back to squatting pain-free. What you're doing right now is just likely making your injured back even weaker and putting you at a higher risk in the future when you're 70 and trying to get up from the toilet or the couch (AKA a half squat of your body weight) Look up Layne's video "Stretching Doesn't Reduce Injury. So What Does? | Educational Video | Biolayne". He breaks down some of his strategy of how he recovered from one of his injuries.
"You can be strong and have pain or weak and have pain, and I choose to be strong and have pain" that one hit
Anecdotal story here... I broke my back a year ago (compression fractured three lumbar vertebrae). The first piece to this is that the ER doctors commented that I was "lucky because my back muscles were strong and this likely helped the injury not be as bad". I had been training hard for three years at this point. Second, upon visiting the spine doctor for my three follow ups, I was told to take it slow and pretty much not do anything. Since I had been training for many years prior, I took this with a grain of salt. I went ahead and started doing body weight exercises earlier than recommended. Third, I got back into loading my spine pretty quickly after the injury (about 3-4 months I was starting to lift weights again). Here I am, a year later, and my dead lifts, RDLs, squats, all are almost back to where they were pre-injury. My back feels great. I'm a big fan of pushing it as hard as you can without being careless. In other words, if you feel sore and think you might be over doing it, then listen to your body and ease back a bit. Good technique and regular loading really helped me get back to where I was. To be fair in all this, spinal compression fractures are considered the good kind of breaking your back (if there is such a thing) and, obviously, if you can't do this level of recovery, that's okay too. Just do what you can.
I must of have the bad kind. I was doing over head presses with 185. Was used to it no problem. But I felt a slight slip in my back.. no pain so I proceeded naturally that evening. Next day at work I went to lift and my back seemed to have an (explosion) in it. Dr said ruptured disc. Years later I had an x ray back Dr said I had had a spontaneous scoliosis. Now I have very little back pain, but fear returning to Dead lifts and squats.But I do miss the power one feels when doing them. Heavy training makes the whole body grow.
The key word there is PROGRESSIVE
And also making sure to not exceed your personal tipping point
Spinal loading, unexpectedly, can definitely cause spinal injuries
I burst my L4/L5 disc in 2003, and had surgery in 2005, which has left me in chronic pain since - so this topic is very important to me
I made a video on how I recovered from a catastrophic back injury. Check it out. I made a protocol based in Layne’s wisdom.
Ditto, I also overdid it with the deadlifts (too much volume of high weights, too frequently) and ruptured a lumbar disc. Extremely painful at the time but thankfully 6 months later I'm mostly ok. Although I'm only deadlifting half what I was, I'm trying to slowly build back up progressively. Hope you're able to manage your pain and keep active!
I started strength training AFTER a back injury (big fall and direct impact on the lower back) and years of back pain and physiotherapy. It is THE SINGLE THING that helps me with the pain and keeps my back in shape and me pain free ❤❤❤
I love talking about this SLR almost daily and love having patients deadlift. To add to your argument about “lifting injuries”- anecdotally, when you have lifting injuries from population with consistent strength training habits they tend to have acute, short term, symptoms that resolve and person comes back stronger and more resilient. Injuries from people in the absence of any strength training habits tend toward longer recovery, chronic pain, kinesiophobic patterns, and overall worse health outcomes. “Can’t go wrong getting strong”
Decades of working in hospitals has shown me that the worst thing for your back is bed rest People on complete bed rest complain constantly of back pain. From what Layne shows in this video, it is obvious that your back muscles thrive on being used.
Hi Layne, as an enhanced bodybuilder i recently herniated a disc between l5s1 which gave me massive nerve issues and subsequent foot drop symptoms and total unilateral leg weakness.
I found your recovery from your back injury with Stuart McGill massive inspiration and have seen you have since competed multiple times very successfully. Really appreciate the video
Totally agree. I’m telling pts the same thing every day - excess load is injury risk, under loading leads to weakness but progressive loading at the right levels builds tissue capacity and in turn reduces injury risk.
One challenge is that connective tissues build capacity slower than muscle tissue - which means you might feel strong enough but not actually ready. Progress gradually.
Perhaps another way at looking at the point made in the video is to remember that strength straining trains the muscles, but not only the muscles. The bones and tendons are also being put through a workout during weight lifting exercise. The muscle, bones and tendons will all adapt to the training as a result.
N=1, but I have two compressed discs, and I herniated a lumbar disc in January of 2023 when moving one of our Hammer Strength machines, but I was able to resume deadlifting within a few weeks and have continued to do so since without any problems.
Excellent information here. I resistance train older adults with chronic illnesses and I see greater improvements in quality of life due to them getting stronger
Thanks, Dr. Layne. So much logic in your insights, makes total sense and explains my injury events and how to avoid them!
I tweaked my back a month ago doing cable crunches of all things. I watched your video series with mcgill and Allan Thralls video on him training with a injured back. My back has been stiff every morning and sometimes uncomfortable while walking. But its been getting getter. I did 150kg rackpulls 2 days ago and my back felt the best it has ever felt in weeks. It has been very helpful to me to see that I should not stop lifting but just put more focus on having a tight core. Thanks man
Have a bad back due to a car accident years ago. I added squats and deadlifts in my routine over the last few years. When my back starts to complain (usually from bad posture) then I do something different in the gym until the pain goes away and I start lifting again. I try my best to keep my strength and mobility up to help me deal with it. Thanks for the video Layne. The videos you did a couple of years ago showing you training when your back was really hurting showed me that you can still lift if you are careful.
Posture has also not been shown to be associated with back pain or any other pain for that matter. PERSISTENT posture, however, is. Just want to clarify that.
Source: Physiotherapist & nerd.
This video is spot on! I was watching a video where the author was talking about deadlifting - benching and squatting very frequently. While the loads were not extreme, the premise is totally flawed. Especially for compound movements, the need for adequate recovery is proven. Spinal loading can be very beneficial if it’s done properly, with adequate rest, and progressive in nature. The only times I’ve ever gotten hurt is when I didn’t allow recovery to take place. It’s when people say deadlifting is bad. So dumb! It’s how things are done that matters most c
The vast majority of LBP is non-mechanical. I deal mostly with trauma cases which inevitably become non-mechanical pain. And how to I approach most cases at some point? Spinal loading. You’re not broken, you’re sensitive. We can desensitize in most cases. The human body is not fragile
If you squat heavy a lot and then quit your back will hurt. When you start again you'll stop hurting. In theory, if you squat well into old age you'd go longer without back pain.
But if you're gonna squat you'll have to do it forever because stopping will lead to hurt. This isn't an issue for many gym heads.
This is just my experience though. I can't go more than 6-9 months without squatting or my back hurts. When I start again my back feels robust and doesn't hurt.
A 40min deadlift session doing 6 sets of deadlifts gives me no back pain whatsoever. Get me to assemble flatpack furniture, where Im slightly bent over something on the floor and my back is in absolute agony. Even a small stresser, if novel, can flare back pain lol
same here, haha🤣
Glad to finally see people catching up to modern day science about back pain. Train your back and every part of your body in different planes with load and your body will thank you.
That's why I love cable felxion rows. You have to expose your body to those small form breakdowns because, in the real world and under heavy load, there's no way your form will be picture perfect.
Progressing from only static exercises to reverse hypers, machine flexion rows to seated round back extensions cured my back pain, now I just do cable and sometimes free weight flexion rows to keep my adaptations, almost going into a Jefferson Curl, feels amazing
Makes perfect sense Layne. Not thought about that before. We can get injured because our body isn't strong in that motion. There's a standing Trunk/body curl/deadlift I've seen some folks do and it looks dangerous...however, I guess it's not dangerous because they're slowly progressing the resistance in that performance. Hmmm very interesting. Thanks for sharing
Your opening described my situation. Causing me to fear dead lifting and squats. Pain was beyond description. At one time I got the deadlift back to 430. But later tried it again and reinjured my back at just 225. So I avoid deadlifts tho I loved it.
I love this channel. Best, REAL info available
Great Video! Thank you 🔥👏💪🫶
As my scoliosis started causing more problems i ditched the deadlift and the squat etc after years of training. All this heavy shit aint worth the risk. I try to stay lean and efficient these days with safer, usually less intense exercises. Prolly for the best long-term
My personal experience is that this all is true for me. I’m 50, deadlift over 600lbs. I train like a powerlifter but don’t compete. I also have kyphosis so I’ve got that rounded upper back and I’ve never had a day of low back pain in my life (the two times I thought I did turned out to be kidney stones). My lumbar vertebrae are extremely stiff and always have been. I’ve had kyphosis since I was a teen and I think my low back stiffness comes from that since my center of gravity is high and forward tilted. I’ve only been lifting weights for about 10 years and maybe 6 semi-seriously but till I was 40 or so I played basketball multiple times a week and regularly was a street skateboarder doing tricks and all that. My thoracic vertebrae will definitely round when I go heavy but my low back is stiff as a board. I’ve had shoulder issues forever and arthritis in my knees but my deadlifts have always been strong regardless of form but it’s the one lift and body region I’ve never hurt. For what it’s worth, I also never fail deadlifts once I get the bar to my mid shin, I only fail off the floor. I also have long arms, am 6’3” (or was when I was young) and lift conventionally for reference. I typically deadlift once a week.
Only time I've ever hurt my back lifting was exactly as described, I'd had taken a few months off after a powerlifting meet due to changes at work (3 different shifts in 3 months) and then tried to go a little too heavy literally my first time lifting again so definitely my fault. Also props to being slightly round back gang, I got so tired of people telling me I was doing it wrong. Won my last meet with a round back, lol.
It's like Dr. Sully from Greysteel says: "I take iron for back pain"
I have lower back pain but I noticed it gets better when I do seated rows without chest support than when I do them with chest support. Apparently it helps to train those lower back muscles.
thx for the reminding us about form and adapting it !
You have often said form does not matter, but that technique does. What is the difference? What is a good resource to learn technique?
Squat University is punching the air rn
I like this guy information…. Keep the good work.
I love training back, but I also add abs and dead hangs several times a week. It seems to keep me mobile and healthy.
Ever so often I'll stop doing ab workouts and back pain will start to creep up. Ill then go back an add 3 ab sessions/week and that helps my lower back pain a lot.
THIS COMMENT PEOPLE !
READ IT AND DO !
Depends what you mean by ab workout. Sit-ups done excessively can cause a significant imbalance resulting in back injuries. What is really important to maintain a healthy back is
GOOD CORE STRENGTH. Quite different to ab workouts
I can confirm that lifting decreases lower back pain, I have a herniated disc and sciatica, when I am lifting I have almost no pain, but it comes back when I stop lifting. But be careful though, I use low weights with high reps, and I don't mean very low, but like 60% of my 1rep max, and I only do it on a machine with back support.
Layne, have you moved away from the McGill school of thought on back pain?
what is their thought
Can you make some videos about inguinal hernia and compound exercises, I think that's interesting topic. Much love and greetings, you are a great guy!
Did deadlifts for 2 years since it was promoted left and right. Prior to that I was not exactly beginner: work related heavy lifting as logger for 10 years, some stone masonry, some hobby strongman stuff and occasional local competitions. Developed back problems with DLs withing 3 months. Started very mildly, light weight, not even close to failure, ever. Mindful of technique, bracing, video'd and analysed technique and form. Went on and justified them as they *have to be good for back, when done right* .
Worst thing was that I couldn't pin my back issues to DLs for the longest of time. The injuries ocurred when simply lifting some light normal stuff after several days of DL session - like a piece of firewood or picking up some 30 kg (light for me) objects from ground. Usually unilateral movements caused the injuries. Never the on the DL itself. The relation is super non obvious, but I had no back issues 10 year before touching a barbell from ground, and then suddenly I had them monthly.
Dropped deadlifts for good for a year. Apparently reversed back issues, at least no pain.
Anecdote. Correlation. But this is my back, not doing deadlifts with barbell again.
I've thought about getting a back MRI to see how f-d up my discs are, but it is expensive and thus delayed.
It could reveal some specifics or debunk what I think DLs are doing bad to me.
Funniest part is that lifting a 100 kg stone or 200 kg log all day is much safer for me than lifting 170 kg barbell DL for 10 reps (which was barely RPE 7-8 for me, as barely strength building).
Unless DL numbers are goal, there are other much safer, equally good lower body stuff to do. Lunges, split squats, step-ups etc. Still develop a lot of practical strength and muscle mass.
Example - try picking up a heavy stone without bracing your core - I dare you. You can do so easily with barbell.
Some people never have back problems, can lift stupid stuff in all the wrong position. Others are not so lucky and I am not convinced DL-s and squats are cure for them.
Are you tall with short torso and long legs ? This build should not deadlift. But deadlifts in general are just bad, better do the 10 week online program by functional patterns ™
@@FlatEarthScholar Not really. I am quite well built for deadlifts - long arms, long-ish torso, medium to short legs.
It is likely I have some disk problems developed from youth when I lifted ridiculously heavy stuff without thought and poor form.
Dude look at strongmen and strongwomen competitors.... And take things like the stone load for instance. I don't know how many comments I've gotten on my videos about the stone load talk about how I'm doing it improperly cuz my back is rounded (which is completely ignorant because it's impossible to load a stone with a straight back) . They get strong being out of position That's why they don't get injured or rarely get injured
Rationality! Careful, mike might come for you
I had a bulging disc around 24 yo. no spinal Loading, I sat in a desk chair at work then at home playing wow. so this is around 12-16 hours a day. I'm currently 41yo, I almost have no cartilage between L4 and L5. I have been lifting with high bar squats, I can say I am nearly out of all back pain. for me, 3x3 squats work for me. when I was doing 5x10's it was just too much. I also do some other workouts that help to increase back strength, suitcase carry walking lunges. this helps work the QL's it most of the motions while carrying a load.
I have a bulged disc at my l4 l5 and i can no longer do any spinal loading ( hack squats , squats ) or i pay severely for it. It was the loading that initially caised the injury and now i deal with it daily. Unfortunate but i will continue to train, just not those patterns.
I was gonna say but you basically said it at the end. LOL Sure people get hurt lifting. People also are in constant pain because they get older and have never lifted a day in their life. You can be in pain either way, which one is better for you being sedentary or active?
My back definitely feels better when I lift. I try to be attentive and careful
How would you correlate that with the work you've put in with Dr McGill ?
You can obviously get injured lifting heavy but I’d say on the whole it’s great for your back
He's right, I had 4 bulging discs on my lower vertabrae due to injuries over time... For about 8 months i couldn't feel my lower stomach all the way to my genitals, it was insane, I wanted to off myself.
Took me about 2 years to actually become functional again, I haven't stopped lifting since and ALSO added a ton of stability exercises.
The lifting keeps my muscles in shape for protecting my spine...
TAKE CARE OF YOUR DAMN SPINE!
P.S. Foam Rolling, functional exercises for the stability of muscles is what got me out of it.
Lifting helped my back
I understand tissues adapting to spinal loading but what about people with sciatic nerve pain? Should they also progressively load their spine? Layne made a brief comment at the end of the video about sciatic but no details were given.
Yes once pain is mild and not too much to tolerate
Everyone I know with back pain is overweight and sedentary. Anecdotally, I’ve worked construction for 25 years and never had an injury or major back pain. I attribute that to consistent lifting.
That is anecdotal for sure. There are a huge number of elite athletes who suffer back injuries despite being super fit and far from overweight
@@MarquitoRH I’d bet my next paycheck that back injuries although extant in in athletes they are much less prevalent. You also need to consider the fact that while I do take training seriously I’m not pushing the limits of my body quite like a professional athlete. The point? Well, watch the video again.
Mix it up I would think. Don't need a neutral spine for everything you do, but if you round your spine all the time, it seems to want to stay in that position
Any advice on lifting if I have modic change type 1 and lower back pain?
try looking at sheering force.
Loading WITH BAD FORM and without prior strength to handle the load definitely can cause back injuries
If you're lifting far beyond what you're used to (in terms of weight or volume), you can do it with great form and still hurt yourself.
Last time I injured my back, I threw some extra deadlifts into a session that had already worn out my back and I injured it despite using great form.
@@artvandelay1720 lets not forget that loading also means the casual 40 year old who doesn’t work out much who’s mom asks he to carry a heavy appliance for her for example
define bad form?
@@Filip-sp2vk give me a break dude
@@Seanonyoutube so there is no a definition of a bad form?
It's only a matter of time until that french girl squatting gets hurt. Back in the day you used to defend your good morning squat Layne against everyone saying you were gonna blow out your back. Then what happened?
It‘s only a matter of time, you‘re right. Maybe in 10 or 20 or 30 or 40 years, you never know 😂
Does this hold both for back pain with and without sciatica?
If you have acute sciatica, I would suggest you first focus on getting the acute pain away with a physiotherapist and only then do the strength training. I think the most important is to find out the cause of it (mine was caused by blocked iliosacral joint) and then get rid of that cause before you put load on the spine
Hey, I made it into the video 😅
How many times did bro say blow out your back
what about rucking # back pain
I fucked my back doing RDL, and 2 years in, it still bothers me and starts hurting if I deadlift over 100kg. Sure, anecdotal, but deadlifting heavy shit can absolutely "blow up" your back.
Stop crying Baby
thx💪
Running with 120lbs hurt my back more than running without the ruck 😭
I found floor ab exercises like crunches to be worse for my back.
never do floor abs. the floor puts severe pressure on the lower spine. you will injure yourself 100%
I only do crunches on a machine that does not put pressure on any of my lower back vertebrae. Pain free.
L5-S1 is fused. No pain or restrictions. My surgeon shits himself every time I tell him I deadlift, squat. And use kettlebells
FOR THE ALGORITHM!
I don’t think excessive bending over when squatting is good for you, I also personally believe heavy deadlifts are not worth it. But, you know what is the worst?? Sitting around doing nothing.
So, you thought it would be a good idea to put this out there and jinx us all.
Now debunk Stu McGill
If you lift with bad form, you can increase the load on specific areas which can reduce your recoverable volume. I was lifting with the bar too far forward for a couple weeks and I had to take a week off because my lower back wasn't able to recover from the increased load.
There’s no such things as bad form. Every body is different and we adapt to what we are exposing ourselves to. Injuries occur because of too much and too soon.
@@Filip-sp2vk If your technique differs enough from the technique you intended to have that it activates the muscles differently, that's bad form.
Obviously my example was bad form because the outcome was that I could no longer handle my weekly lifting volume.
@@artvandelay1720 that doesn’t mean the form is bad. it means you were not prepared for that
@@Filip-sp2vk If doing the exercise incorrectly isn't bad form, then basically nothing is bad form. Hip thrust bicep curls aren't bad form by that logic.
@@artvandelay1720 Hip trusting biceps curl is not bad on injury standpoint. It is bad because you don’t stimulate your biceps properly and wasting your time. You gotta realize that injuries don’t occur because you flexed your back or moved your hip an inch. Injuries/pain is multifactorial, and very often occur if you load your self too much, too soon. Ofc, additional risk is when you have poor recovery, poor sleep, stress etc.
Wow, Doctors of Chiropractic have been right about this for nearly 40 years! That's awesome.
Four thee Al Gore rhythm!!
SquatU is literally crying rn 😂
Bump 💪🏼
Algorithm!
Comment for Algo
Yeah.. tell that to my herniated disc from squatting and the sciatica it caused.
Same! My sciatica gets aggravated when I sit or stand for too long. I do any kind of back workout I’m miserable for a week
Something else that wasnt mentioned in the video is the demographic of people who live sedentary lives, except for the hour or so a day that they strength train with lots of heavy compound movements. When you are chronically sedentary with poor posture and associated muscle imbalances, and then you take that and throw in compound movements with heavy weights, you’re reinforcing those postural tendencies and dramatically increasing the tension and stress of already weak/tight/inflamed/vulnerable tissues. This progresses with or without pain until the tissue ultimately can no longer handle the forces being incorrectly applied to them and the tissue fails.
Squatting didn't cause that.
@@Simon-talks are you suggesting chronically squatting improperly cant cause a herniated disc? 😅
@@logangaddy I walk/run 8 to 10 miles a day. I’m also a black belt in BJJ and train(ed) daily. I’m not or ever have been sedentary. I injured myself squatting. It is what it is, but it’s ridiculous to think that it’s not a potentially dangerous activity to put 400+ lbs on your back
Well if almost anyone rounds their back anywhere near near their 1 rep max deadlift they will suffer an injury, so that's why we use good form, but with lighter loads it's totally safe to round the back.
Wrong...and all the recent evidence is dispelling this old myth. Barbell Medicine crew has been saying this since 2018 at least, backed with science.
Algorithm
Spinal discs act as shock absorbers between spinal vertebrae. If you buy two identical pickup trucks and one is loaded with a very heavy load and the other one is loaded with a light load. Which pickup truck will need new shock absorbers sooner?
pick up truck regenerate and adapt to grow stronger? I didn't know that!
@@Simon-talks I didn't realize that humans maintain their ability to repair damage to their spinal discs as they age. Thanks!
Yeah it's quite amazing, humans heal damage and repair ongoingly when it occurs....if you've ever sprained an ankle or cut yourself, or strained a muscle, it's amazing how it will heal up(unlike an F150). I hate that schools these days aren't getting good biology through to kids that are playing with tablets and missing out on education. :(
A disc is rated in 3 stages if it is damaged. Again, do not fit data to your feelings.
Pain is not understood yet and no study has proven why some people have more pain than others.
This is the first topic I think you are trying to sell your own lifestyle.
45... still hitting PR's. not Dr. Layne's number but deadlifting 500, 440 squat, bench 300, 225 ohp... never stopping. no health issues, no back, knee, shoulder pain.
I've been telling people this for like the last 15 years. Pretty much whatever the older medical journals or whatever my doctor says I just go in the opposite direction and I end up being right over time
I wonder what Stuart mc gill thinks about this, and what do you think about Stuart mc gill considering he has evaluated yuor back pain and his view is leaning towards a more biomechanical model of back pain, th-cam.com/video/4RpAqIupO-E/w-d-xo.htmlsi=cnJesoQ8VkIr-tcT
Lol I see it often
Fta
I have a long history with back pain. Turns out it’s related to weak hip muscles. Finding how to strengthen my glutes in the very specific way they needed has literally changed my life.
It could not find evidence for it, that's not the same as it does NOT do it. Remember your own rules, represent the data over feelings :)
The fact that getting a back injury is something that CAN happen when you lift a little weird or at a strange angle is a testament to how the body is indeed fragile to a certain extent.
The whole "the human body isnt that fragile" argument is ridiculous. Because we know just how incredibly fragile the human body is. You can die from hitting your head a little funny when you trip.
If injury is possible then fragility is a factor, period.
Unless you lift like a complete moron, then you'll likely be fine.
But you can be extremely unlucky, like me. 3 very badly herniated discs for completely unknown reasons years apart, just woke up with them. Go figure. Wasn't lifting at the time.
i have 3 herniated discs. i can deadlift 345 x 5, and the next couple days my back is stiff, cant touch my toes when i bend over for a bit, etc. but when i back squat even 225x5, i cant go to the gym for weeks, because i have debilitating back pain. from my own personal experience, spinal loading absolutely causes back pain
So much misinfo in this video!! Actually shows his understanding -- or lack thereof -- of all this -- pain, pain models, scoping reviews, what that scoping review was actually about, etc, etc, etc..........
Wow!!!
Stu McGill is crying..
Have you seen Laynes collab with Mcgill? Pretty sure they are agree on this matter
Stu McGill would tell you it's fine deadlifting with a rounded upper back as long as the spine doesn't move and the movement is done at the hips. If you move with your lumbar spine, that's how you will herniate your disc
@@davidethierapril6571 and thats completely false and fear mongering bs
@@Bjorn_R that was a long time ago and Layne doesn’t agree with McGills bs no more
@@davidethierapril6571 and that’s completely false and fear mongering bs
Something else worth mentioning is the demographic of people who live sedentary lives, except for the hour or so a day that they strength train with lots of heavy compound movements in an attempt to compensate for the otherwise lack of movement in their daily lives. When you are chronically sedentary with poor posture and associated muscle imbalances, and then you take that and throw in compound movements with heavy weights, you’re bringing that into the gym and reinforcing those postural tendencies and dramatically increasing the tension and stress of already weak/tight/inflamed/vulnerable tissues. This progresses with or without pain until the tissue ultimately can no longer handle the forces being incorrectly applied to them and the tissue fails.
That's nonsense. Joint mobility predicts injury WAY more than under recovery
Evidence..?
Flexibility is barely a health metric at all, and stretching is NOT correlated in any way with reduced injury.
@@withindarkness I think what he means is sufficient mobility. If you want to overhead press correctly, you need enough shoulder flexion to reach 180 degrees to put the bar over your head. If you can't do that, you will probably not progress far enough or increase your weights very much. You'd need to do mobility exercices then do it.
@@davidethierapril6571 but thats not an injury predictor, simply a lack of performance. Form and mobility is absolutely critical to putting up your best numbers and getting good work in...its just not anything to do with injury.
Lotta caveats here. I don't care how much you work out or do physical therapy if you have severe stenosis or narrowing it's very very seldom that it helps and can make it worse. There's even more caveats. As someone with severe injuries from work and a car accident and multiple back operations and now I have a titanium lumbar I can assure you that I'm NEVER doing squats or deadlifts again. They hurt. Period. There's other ways to train without doing those exercises.
You should watch Layne's videos about his back injury and how he recovered to now finally being pain free. You will obviously have pain when you're restarting after an injury. That's not necessarily a bad thing. Get a good coach and push yourself and you can absolutely go back to squatting pain-free.
What you're doing right now is just likely making your injured back even weaker and putting you at a higher risk in the future when you're 70 and trying to get up from the toilet or the couch (AKA a half squat of your body weight)
Look up Layne's video "Stretching Doesn't Reduce Injury. So What Does? | Educational Video | Biolayne". He breaks down some of his strategy of how he recovered from one of his injuries.
@icephysio #painreframed 👏🏻