Online you’ll find people making the absolute statement “Chinese Sword Arts do not block with the edge.” I sometimes wonder how these people have had time to learn all the various sword schools within China, from Foshan to Shandong, and then make such a declaration.Contrary to these claims, In Wong Honfan’s Sundial Sword book (provided by myself and translated by Paul Brennan), you can find an example of an edge to edge block. Both practitioners cut with palm down, horizontally across from left-to-right, against each other’s blades. By the way, this isn’t the only example you can find of counter-cutting (or edge blocking) an opponent’s blade with your own edge in Chinese sword fighting. The author, a teacher from my own line of martial arts, Wong Honfan, began studying Chinese Sword fighting in the 1920’s. His teacher Luo Guangyu, born in the 1800’s, hailed from Shandong and was called to Jingwu after Huo Yuanjia died. Both men instructed the Chinese army in sword combat during the WW2 era, China’s last era of bladed combat alongside gun use. Luo Guangyu’s teacher Fan Xudong was also famous for his sword skills, as was Fan’s teacher Wong Rongsheng. Wong Rongsheng’s teacher Li Sanjian utilized his own blade skills as a bodyguard and security service escort for caravans on the lawless roads of Shandong. Clearly this was a long line of knowledgable sword teachers in harsh environments. Back to our author Wong Honfan. A pillar in the local martial community who had tea with dozens of masters, a man who was endorsed by founding Jingwu members and an author who’s works were being widely disseminated: he probably wouldn’t have included such techniques in his books if such counter cuts were somehow universally and basically acknowledged as “bad.” Are there other ways to deal with an attack? Of course, found in the very same Sundial Sword Book/Form. You can grab the enemy’s arm, or evade their cut entirely, or block with the flat, or cut to their limb. Those all remain as options. Let’s just not pretend that edge blocking wasn’t also a consciously employed defensive maneuver purposefully taught in some schools of Chinese sword methodology. Sometimes old Chinese sayings like “A master swordsman defeats his opponent without making a sound!” are quoted, which Luo Guangyu was no doubt aware of (espousing the principle himself). It must be remembered though that this saying is a potential and poetic indicator of skill. It would be like saying “A master boxer can defeat any challenger with a single punch!” …It’s potentially true… not going to happen all the time… doesn’t mean that other scenarios or techniques might unfold in the reality of battle. People have said “My teacher has examined a thousand antique Chinese swords and found no edge damage, therefore there must have been no edge blocking in Chinese sword fights!” Well now that edge blocks have been shown to exist that argument is moot, but it brings up a good point on how we should interpret historical data. I love that people are examining antiques and actual history more, but good research training helps us interpret what we find. 1. 1000 swords represent less than 1% of all swords that ever existed in China. Chinese History expert Charles Hucker wrote that the 1600’s Ming throne commanded around 2 million soldiers. If you give at least half those guys swords, you start to see the scope of how many their actually were, not even addressing swords made privately. Thus to examine 1000 swords and determine that they represent the standard for how all swords were used is not accurate. 2. Edge damaged swords were often repaired or could be re-purposed. 3. Surviving examples in museums may represent treasured examples that were not used in battle. You can find a 1000 rapiers in museums that have no edge damage despite rapier manuals specifically calling for edge blocks I would see this entire discussion pop up online from time to time with one side absolutely saying their were no edge blocks, while citing antique examples without edge damage and pointing to other ways attacks could be dealt with (flat blocked, avoided, etc.), but unable to cite any instance in a Holy Universal Chinese Sword Manual that said “Thou shalt not Edge Block.” Similarly, the opposing side would say “They DID edge-block!” And argue from common sense (“You can survive and fix your damaged edge later!”), yet unable to provide a concrete example from a manual. By providing this example (and you can find others), I hope to simply move the discussion past absolute statements such as “There was no edge blocking in Chinese sword fighting.” I am not attacking any practitioners who believed otherwise before they knew about this particular example. Maybe they simply had not seen it before (of course this is why hard-line absolute statements are sometimes avoided in certain scholarly/historic scenarios: you never know what will pop up and surprise you!). Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!
You bring up many interesting points in this video! I think you have demonstrated that some edge blocks existed in your lineage to be sure! I also really liked the demo with sharps and showing the difference between flat and sharp parries! I think that some people who don’t spend time around sharps may be surprised at how much of a difference this makes. I would like to add that you can certainly find edge damage on many antique blades, but it is usually concentrated around the middle of the end of the blade. Finding edge damage on antiques near the forte or the strong of the blade is much rarer. This may suggest that hard solid blocks with the forte of the blade where primarily executed with the flat, but as you mention, our sample size is too small to make real definitive claims. Additionally, counter cutting as demonstrated by the images in the text could lead to edge damage on towards the middle of the blade which can be found on certain antiques. I would still maintain that antiques and forms seem to suggest that edge parrying was not as common as it is in some European systems like english military saber which has no flat parries in the manuals I have studied and many of their swords had a ricasso at the base of the blade which helped eliminate this problem of edge damage when making hard edge parries on the forte of the blade.
Yeah, that it existed (to counter those absolutist statements “there was no edge blocking in Chinese sword arts”): that’s my only point. We probably agree on 90% of everything else after that anyways. Cheers.
Haha. I don’t really care about “convincing people”. It’s there whether they know it or not. Just wanted to move past the conversation I heard all the time I suppose.
@@theravenswoodacademy8796 And I really appreciate you doing this because having a Hema background, I tend to look at swords and weapons in general as tools, with an intended way of using them transcending dogma, though I'm not saying there's only one way to use a spear, for example, but you do tend to poke with the pointy end. So knowing that edge blocking is a thing with swords in Europe, I had trouble imagining Asian swordsmanship going out of it's way to block solely with the edge. The swords are not fundamentally different so sword mechanics are most certainly shared between these two cultures art.
I've heard more than one person espouse the "edge blocks didn't exist in China" thing, so I just figured I'd kindly let them know examples exist *shrugs* …I really hope no one is wasting time being mad over it. It’s also not like I’m some random guy with a random internet picture either: the author pictured in the book is my own inherited lineage of teachers. I have a Masters in History: research and practice in this stuff is what I naturally like/do, so I’m more just sharing what I know, not going after anyone. One time, and this was years ago, I corrected Guy Windsor, a published HEMA author with fencing schools up and down Finland. You know what his response was? He was EXCITED! So excited and thankful he wrote an entire blogpost about it. The man didn’t care about always “looking perfect”: He was just genuinely excited to learn more about his art. Hopefully we can all be like that. Here was his blogpost. I corrected him over a type of poison that was put in poleaxes. guywindsor.net/2014/06/beingwrong/
@@theravenswoodacademy8796 I mean we all know it's Rodell, just as Rodell knows it's you but of course he won't name you while slagging you off but making it very clear that he's talking about you. It's kind of a pity because he is of course, extremely knowledgeable, but he's stuck to a few ideas which are obviously peculiar overstatements.
Thanks for sharing this piece of evidence. I like your point about the diversity of China. We recognise the huge diversity of empty-hand styles, but somehow jian styles appear homogenous. It doesn’t really add up. At the same time there’s a dearth of historical accounts of jian being used in combat. Even the Republic-era proponents of the jian wrote that jianshu had been long forgotten in China until General Li JingLin reintroduced it via the Guoshu Institute. We can’t really extrapolate back in time based on early 20th Century jian practices.
There's no doubt sword styles/schools were diverse yes and whatever sword arts were practiced very long ago (like Warring States Period) probably died off. Most of the Chinese martial arts existent today most likely do not go back before the Ming (if they even make it that far back at all!) Thanks for your thoughts.
Online you’ll find people making the absolute statement “Chinese Sword Arts do not block with the edge.” I sometimes wonder how these people have had time to learn all the various sword schools within China, from Foshan to Shandong, and then make such a declaration.Contrary to these claims, In Wong Honfan’s Sundial Sword book (provided by myself and translated by Paul Brennan), you can find an example of an edge to edge block. Both practitioners cut with palm down, horizontally across from left-to-right, against each other’s blades.
By the way, this isn’t the only example you can find of counter-cutting (or edge blocking) an opponent’s blade with your own edge in Chinese sword fighting.
The author, a teacher from my own line of martial arts, Wong Honfan, began studying Chinese Sword fighting in the 1920’s. His teacher Luo Guangyu, born in the 1800’s, hailed from Shandong and was called to Jingwu after Huo Yuanjia died.
Both men instructed the Chinese army in sword combat during the WW2 era, China’s last era of bladed combat alongside gun use.
Luo Guangyu’s teacher Fan Xudong was also famous for his sword skills, as was Fan’s teacher Wong Rongsheng. Wong Rongsheng’s teacher Li Sanjian utilized his own blade skills as a bodyguard and security service escort for caravans on the lawless roads of Shandong.
Clearly this was a long line of knowledgable sword teachers in harsh environments.
Back to our author Wong Honfan. A pillar in the local martial community who had tea with dozens of masters, a man who was endorsed by founding Jingwu members and an author who’s works were being widely disseminated: he probably wouldn’t have included such techniques in his books if such counter cuts were somehow universally and basically acknowledged as “bad.”
Are there other ways to deal with an attack? Of course, found in the very same Sundial Sword Book/Form. You can grab the enemy’s arm, or evade their cut entirely, or block with the flat, or cut to their limb. Those all remain as options. Let’s just not pretend that edge blocking wasn’t also a consciously employed defensive maneuver purposefully taught in some schools of Chinese sword methodology.
Sometimes old Chinese sayings like “A master swordsman defeats his opponent without making a sound!” are quoted, which Luo Guangyu was no doubt aware of (espousing the principle himself). It must be remembered though that this saying is a potential and poetic indicator of skill. It would be like saying “A master boxer can defeat any challenger with a single punch!” …It’s potentially true… not going to happen all the time… doesn’t mean that other scenarios or techniques might unfold in the reality of battle.
People have said “My teacher has examined a thousand antique Chinese swords and found no edge damage, therefore there must have been no edge blocking in Chinese sword fights!” Well now that edge blocks have been shown to exist that argument is moot, but it brings up a good point on how we should interpret historical data. I love that people are examining antiques and actual history more, but good research training helps us interpret what we find.
1. 1000 swords represent less than 1% of all swords that ever existed in China. Chinese History expert Charles Hucker wrote that the 1600’s Ming throne commanded around 2 million soldiers. If you give at least half those guys swords, you start to see the scope of how many their actually were, not even addressing swords made privately. Thus to examine 1000 swords and determine that they represent the standard for how all swords were used is not accurate.
2. Edge damaged swords were often repaired or could be re-purposed.
3. Surviving examples in museums may represent treasured examples that were not used in battle. You can find a 1000 rapiers in museums that have no edge damage despite rapier manuals specifically calling for edge blocks
I would see this entire discussion pop up online from time to time with one side absolutely saying their were no edge blocks, while citing antique examples without edge damage and pointing to other ways attacks could be dealt with (flat blocked, avoided, etc.), but unable to cite any instance in a Holy Universal Chinese Sword Manual that said “Thou shalt not Edge Block.” Similarly, the opposing side would say “They DID edge-block!” And argue from common sense (“You can survive and fix your damaged edge later!”), yet unable to provide a concrete example from a manual.
By providing this example (and you can find others), I hope to simply move the discussion past absolute statements such as “There was no edge blocking in Chinese sword fighting.” I am not attacking any practitioners who believed otherwise before they knew about this particular example. Maybe they simply had not seen it before (of course this is why hard-line absolute statements are sometimes avoided in certain scholarly/historic scenarios: you never know what will pop up and surprise you!).
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!
With the Dao! You see these techniques that you demonstrated in southern styles 😳Thanks, Sifu 😬
You bring up many interesting points in this video! I think you have demonstrated that some edge blocks existed in your lineage to be sure!
I also really liked the demo with sharps and showing the difference between flat and sharp parries! I think that some people who don’t spend time around sharps may be surprised at how much of a difference this makes.
I would like to add that you can certainly find edge damage on many antique blades, but it is usually concentrated around the middle of the end of the blade. Finding edge damage on antiques near the forte or the strong of the blade is much rarer. This may suggest that hard solid blocks with the forte of the blade where primarily executed with the flat, but as you mention, our sample size is too small to make real definitive claims. Additionally, counter cutting as demonstrated by the images in the text could lead to edge damage on towards the middle of the blade which can be found on certain antiques.
I would still maintain that antiques and forms seem to suggest that edge parrying was not as common as it is in some European systems like english military saber which has no flat parries in the manuals I have studied and many of their swords had a ricasso at the base of the blade which helped eliminate this problem of edge damage when making hard edge parries on the forte of the blade.
Yeah, that it existed (to counter those absolutist statements “there was no edge blocking in Chinese sword arts”): that’s my only point. We probably agree on 90% of everything else after that anyways. Cheers.
You got a taste for fighting, but this one will be tougher. Fighting ideas over internet is akin to fighting ghosts.
Haha. I don’t really care about “convincing people”. It’s there whether they know it or not. Just wanted to move past the conversation I heard all the time I suppose.
@@theravenswoodacademy8796 And I really appreciate you doing this because having a Hema background, I tend to look at swords and weapons in general as tools, with an intended way of using them transcending dogma, though I'm not saying there's only one way to use a spear, for example, but you do tend to poke with the pointy end.
So knowing that edge blocking is a thing with swords in Europe, I had trouble imagining Asian swordsmanship going out of it's way to block solely with the edge. The swords are not fundamentally different so sword mechanics are most certainly shared between these two cultures art.
Happy New Year. Good video. I think if it like attack and defence combined tai chi sword is no difference.imho
Thanks!
How many real sword fights can a person survive?
Depends on the quality of opponents, etc. Accounts from Musashi to McBane indicate a lot, potentially.
In case you're wondering if the guy you're subposting about is mad about it, yeah, he's totally mad about it.
I've heard more than one person espouse the "edge blocks didn't exist in China" thing, so I just figured I'd kindly let them know examples exist *shrugs* …I really hope no one is wasting time being mad over it.
It’s also not like I’m some random guy with a random internet picture either: the author pictured in the book is my own inherited lineage of teachers. I have a Masters in History: research and practice in this stuff is what I naturally like/do, so I’m more just sharing what I know, not going after anyone.
One time, and this was years ago, I corrected Guy Windsor, a published HEMA author with fencing schools up and down Finland. You know what his response was? He was EXCITED! So excited and thankful he wrote an entire blogpost about it. The man didn’t care about always “looking perfect”: He was just genuinely excited to learn more about his art. Hopefully we can all be like that.
Here was his blogpost. I corrected him over a type of poison that was put in poleaxes. guywindsor.net/2014/06/beingwrong/
@@theravenswoodacademy8796 I mean we all know it's Rodell, just as Rodell knows it's you but of course he won't name you while slagging you off but making it very clear that he's talking about you. It's kind of a pity because he is of course, extremely knowledgeable, but he's stuck to a few ideas which are obviously peculiar overstatements.
Thanks for sharing this piece of evidence.
I like your point about the diversity of China. We recognise the huge diversity of empty-hand styles, but somehow jian styles appear homogenous. It doesn’t really add up.
At the same time there’s a dearth of historical accounts of jian being used in combat. Even the Republic-era proponents of the jian wrote that jianshu had been long forgotten in China until General Li JingLin reintroduced it via the Guoshu Institute. We can’t really extrapolate back in time based on early 20th Century jian practices.
There's no doubt sword styles/schools were diverse yes and whatever sword arts were practiced very long ago (like Warring States Period) probably died off. Most of the Chinese martial arts existent today most likely do not go back before the Ming (if they even make it that far back at all!) Thanks for your thoughts.