Lyn vs Colorful - Highest Level ORC vs NE Showcase with CAST - Grubby
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 ส.ค. 2023
- Lyn vs Colorful - Highest Level ORC vs NE Showcase with CAST (Game played on 18-August-2023)
Catch me live all days of the week at: / grubby
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#Grubby #Games #Strategy #Multiplayer #Competitive - เกม
Sitting here during the whole creative discussion thinking “what an unreasonable take on creativity” to a few minutes later hearing Gurrby say “maybe I need to rethink my take”. Not many people can do that, good guy Grubby.
I feel like there's a difference between a strategically creative successful build and a "hey this is something I thought of that no one else has been doing". Both are valid in terms of creativity, but if a build doesn't work, then it's just creative garbage, right?
Really? It reinforces my view that video game streamers have zero opinions worth listening to outside their specialty, _especially_ because of the unconscious self-censorship taking place to pander to viewers (who let's face it are not intellectual heavyweights by any stretch of the imagination).
Creativity is about creating things. Coming up with a strategy, even if it sucks, is creative; but in an easy way that most anyone is capable of. Coming up with a new strategy that is actually good, and proving it's good by testing it through victory, is much harder. It's like thinking of an idea for a book vs actually writing a book. Both are creative, but one is far more impressive. The discussion was semantic, but Grubby made a really good point.
Let's go, Firelord + Keeper + Warden 19:05. Make it work, show your creativity.
Was not expecting a De Jeugd line in the middle of a replay cast, but that's why Grubby is the best in the business.
I love how Grubby is eager to defend his points of view but always seems willing to understand other's, and from there change his own. (creative vs. non-creative)
He's such a dorc. The best dorc.
legendary intro. loving these w3art casts! would love to see more :)
I think your definition of creativity is really describing innovation. Doing something different to others is creative regardless of relevance but innovation has value and a wider-reaching consequence
„SO I THREW IT ON THE GROOOUND!“
Love your casting bro. Been years since I played WC3 but it’s still entertaining to watch
Discovered your channel through dota 2. Skill level for players in WC3 are so much higher than those of dota 2
I love your thoughts on creativity. Dude this channel has become so much more than WC3. I watch you every day!
"I don't know why I'm scotish." xD
If you cast wand of illusion on a BM illusion, does it take even more than extra 25% damage which comes from the original illusion? What about the damage dealt?
18:00 amazing maturity. To be able to recognise at least a truth sounding in a heat of a moment.
Most of us didn't notice Grubby's distain for Night Elf because we also hate losing to Night Elf
Great game. You glossed over the game for a discussion. I prefer some focus on the game itself and strategy.
Grubby's commentaries are so enjoyable
Hey Grubby, can I please sort of hijack the thread, and ask you if you could explain to us why is Happy so good? Does some part of him beating opponents left right and center come from the mere fact he is playing Undead, or is it just 100% his pure skill? I have a feeling that Ghouls are a very broken unit fundamentally, and on top of that his skill makes it almost unbeatable. Basically, is Undead broken, or is Happy broken, or is it a mix where Happy is just so good abusing the brokenness of Undead. Can you please talk about it maybe in some of the next videos. Thanks dude.
18:00 love grubby commentary
I think you were describing being innovative, which I guess you could argue is just creativity with an implied improvement.
*18:38** -- guys, look at the Raider on the left -- it performs a KILLING BLOW on the ensnared bear, but it deals NO DAMAGE for some reason ?! O_o*
What's going on here?! O_o
Swing not finished. He interrupted attack just before hit would come.
@@pavellysenko8278I'm not sure...
*7:26** - Lyn n00b.*
Hi Grubby, strat suggestion :
Playing human with archmage as first for water elementals / aura
Second hero firelord with fire elementals / soulburn
[Bonus objective] Third hero as dark ranger for silence against dispellers
The objective here is the cool combination of water and fire elemental wreaking the opponent, while the aura of archmage helps the firelord to cast some soulburn aswell.
For units i suggest harassing with footies mostly, slowing down the opponent's developpement as your heroes and summons grows in strength.
I concur , my UD mass summon skelly strat is with CL dark ranger and DK for heals , along with wagons abombs and Necros. And towering while hitting their base.
@@spencerharding5328 sounds like a good plan ! I think you can also replace the dark ranger by a pit lord or dread lord against night elves, to summon either doom guard or inferno !
amazing cast btw
How was those eggshells Grubby
Have to say i love the casts of you they are so Good
What exactly makes talons so good into orc?
I understand lowering armor is fantastic, and the hard lockdown is good, but are those the only reasons?
cheap, low food, magic > heavy armor
All is clear
Appreciated
The distinguishing factor of creativity for me is that there's reasons you're addressing which make your ideas valid. Think about top players 10 years ago, they were doing things that are invalidated by the mechanical ability and knowledge today, yet they were still creative no? You can't deem someone not creative if they aren't experiencing the factors which invalidates their creativity. Likewise this definition also creates room for players to bring out invalid builds in situations where their opponents don't present the capabilities of countering the sub-optimal build.
I do agree that it sucks people say worse players are MORE creative than top players because top players face far more constraints on their play, it is much more difficult for a top player to be creative. Additionally top players have far more knowledge of the game so things that other players would see as creative solutions would be instantly dismissed as invalid and random if a top player thought of them as they already would know the counter.
Maybe bladestorm should be stacking a debuff that increases the damage taken by the unit per tick?
I would say being creative implies that you are good at finding solutions to a given problem outside usual conventions. However, a solution also broadly needs some rationale behind it, so a bunch of random heroes and units is not really a creative strategy, since there is no real attempt at solving a problem. This way, a strategy can be creative but not necessarily effective: Bloodlusted Bat Riders might be a creative way to win a game by trying to destroy the opponent's base as quickly as possible (which is the rationale), but it's also not particularly effective. What qualifies for effective is probably pretty subjective, though
where or how can i make melon trying a new "creative" strat?! :D
I think the words you are looking for is Creative success.
I agree you can't say that anything different is automatically creative. There are 1320 three-hero combos (including the order you get them in) and obviously only a few are widely used. If you play one of the rarely used ones, that doesn't mean you're creative, any more than it makes you a creative writer just because you use new combinations of letters like "treon" and "burkal." Creativity means coming up with new ideas that work, not just coming up with new ideas.
That said, I think if you come up with some strategy that makes you a better player, that counts, even if it doesn't work at the highest level. Maybe I play against someone who I struggle to beat, but after watching replays I realize they never scout a certain spot near the middle of the map. So in the future I automatically build a proxy shop there with my scouting peon, and having a shop in the center gives me the edge I need to beat that player reliably. That's a garbage strategy at the highest level, but assuming I'm smart enough to stop doing that if the opponent catches on, isn't it a creative idea?
Yes I think this is a good take, because you have a vision and a goal in mind with your creation. If your goal is met and it advances you, I'd say it would be creative and still lines up with what Grubby said - it's a creative solution, not just something that exists.
Hey Grubby, why dont you start a podcast? Notice you have so much to share
You are best DORK!
What happened with that raider hit at 18:38? 😅
He micro’d his control group away thinking the animation was done, which cancelled the auto attack
Blasestorm is like owning a Bentley, but no gas to put in it...worthless but looks cool
lmao biggest fight was going while grubby the old man is just doing some old man rambling
Man, watching that bladestorm in the end literally do nothing. I don't think I even saw any of the night elf units HP drop.
Please, explain why NE won the last battle near fountain? He lost several similar battles without fountain, and is was much harder to kill kodoes near fountain, so I thought it would be easy for orc.
I am not grubby but thorn aura+evade+immulate. So as long as things that passively deal dmdg are alive, they deal additional damage, so the more NE stayed alive, the more dmdg the units dealt via auras. So the fountain was not to orcs advantage plus...you know 1 hero vs 2.
Yes, Grubby, this is very un-elfy of you. 😮
Grubby is confusing creative and effective
I feel like the word "creative" has a lot of meanings, especially in the context of esports compared to something like music. I see Grub's point that creativity alone isn't valuable in a competitive situation unless your creativity leads to success, versus I think in music you can be creative without having to "win" anything
interesting discussion about the "creative" label, and I feel like you definitely need qualifiers in there or you lose out on scenarios where you intuitively would consider some players creative. If you have a player who is trying to crack into the top tier, and leverages unorthodox builds I would call them creative even if their builds don't pan out. I think the label does require some form of "proof" but I think asking for success at a top level is too high a bar. Something similar to the example of the creative viewer that Grubby gave is likely enough, in the sense that you have a reasonable basis for why the creative strategy is worth exploring.
I agree with what grubby is saying regarding creativity stuff, but I think tying it the word "creativity" is a source of a lot of confusion and unintentionally makes you gatekeep the word.
instead of saying that people who think of the strats but don't put them into practice are not creative, it might be better to say that those people might not be good players, or that their strategy does not have confirmation that it actually works. I get that it's very tempting to shortcut all of this to a word, and I agree that that's helpful, but if you really want to do that, I think you should come up with your own word instead.
otherwise you have a bunch of bizarre situations of people heavily disagreeing with your take, not because it's not important to validate a build idea, but purely because of how the word "creative" is used
00:55 okay so happy is rundead
Hang on, I"m late to the party after being on Grubby-hiatus for a year. Did something happen to Bladestorm? Grubby himself said it sucks? What?
I think that the key word is innovation
Omg what happened to bladestorm
korc, dorc :D hillarious
You can be creative while also not having the mechanical skill required to pull off your strategy. This is why we need icons like grubby to test out builds ❤
*edit: nevermind grubby addressed this point near the end lol
I think that, to be fair, people can creatively theorycraft new ideas when they don't have the mechanical skill to take those ideas to the next level. If, say, I came up with a build that Happy or you took to extremely high levels, a build never thought of before, I would deserve some of the credit.
That will never happen in my case, but it is in theory possible with others.
EDIT: Like that random guy who told Destiny to expand to the opponent's natural, and Destiny commented (upon trying) that it could in theory counter four gate.
I think innovative and creative are what I would use
Windwalk with no cooldown is op
About the creativity thing, If your only measure of creativity is it's success, then nothing would ever develop past it's first generation. Life isn't just warcraft3 and it's not made in a binary way the way human made video games are. So yes, I think creativity should have some success but not at the highest level. One should put effort to satisfy their creative outputs, rather than be satisfied with it.
Unique vs creative vs revolutionary.
Grubby just cannot get his head around the fact that he uses a different dimension than creativity as an axiom for something to call it creative, i.e., for something to be creative, it also (and firstly) must be feasable or useful. And let's get one thing straight: being useful is not even enough, it must be implementable at every difficulty level of a game (at least going from easy to difficult), otherwise it still is not creative (see his comparison to someone massing chims successfully, which against better players does not work).
Very high and specific standards. But possible, ofc. However, let's not forget that he had to come up with a definition on the spot, which is never easy. Especially when you are not used to think in such a(n abstract) way.
Only few people make the definition of a dimension conditional from other dimensions, as the criteria for a dimension are to be found in the dimension itself (or have to be absent in others). I guess this comes forth from the underlying reasons (I assume) Grubby has to acknowledge other's accomplishments. It seems that he (only) gives value to accomplishments that are linked to success. Judging by his defensiveness, it seems that, to Grubby, positive reinforcement must be earned. So, being called creative is something positive, and one does not deserve something positive unless it's earned.
Well, let's not blow up the cow too much, shall we? Even if that bold conclusion was true for Grubby, it might only be limited to gaming or related activities and may not describe his belief system he (we all) unconsciously lives by.
Grubby toeing the demonetization line ever closer these days...
Ek het geen idee gehad wat jy gesê het nie, ek kon dit nie heeltemal verstaan nie, verstaan jy my?
It's so heartbreaking to watch Lyn throw the game like that.
Top China-man!!!
damn NE is OP i thought for sure orc was going to win that
i saw an elf level 2 playing like a blade master but without any damage.
china pro player are from ali express
Creative isnt the right word for what youre thinking of grubby. If every creative thing becomes meta then it isnt creative anymore. There is no qualification of success for something to be creative, it just has to accomplish its own goal within the confines of the box.
Although the whole discussion was about creative gameplay, so I do agree with you and him: It needs to meet the goal in its box. A creative strategy is only creative if it solves something, and isn't just a random assortment of things. I see way to many people mix up "randomness" and "creativity". Also why I think "modern art" isn't.
I feel like Grubby has a weird understanding of creativity compared to mine
Yeah I need to work out my ideas about it further. I’m getting something wrong but not sure what
There are creative ways to lose, too :D
20:30 -- what an ATROCIOUS fight for Lyn, really...
His Spirit Walkers half the time were attacking *HEROES*, whereas the other half, *IF* they were attacking bears, they were *NOT FOCUSING them... -_-* ...
Just... poor play, really... :P
.
You don't have to beat the best in the world to be able to say that a certain strategy of yours is creative. As long as you can beat the every other ladder guy who is about same mmr as you, you can call yourself a creative player.
Exactly. If you do anything that other people didn't think of, it's creative
It may suck, but it's creative
That's actually how meta changes in games.
@@P.sherman45no that's not creative it just sucks, if you do it with a good reason that's creative. As an example in aoe4 I'll was on of the first guys who did regular french 1-3 knight opponents into fast double if not triple TC Iagainst boom civs why because I'll can out boom them and they build defensive units against your knight all in, was it optimal no but there is a reason, I'm quit sure some noob started mining camp in dark age on stone did a fast double TC because of that delayed his age up by a lot and just fed up that's just bad. SC2 there are guys who play unoptimized builds to bait a reaction that's creative and than there a lower players who just f up all the time could look exactly the same but the thought processes is completely different one is creative one is just bad.
@asddasdasdasdadsa I agree
If you come up with something in 2 seconds, obviously, it's just stupid. But my point is if you come up with a strategy that nobody thought of, it's creative nonetheless. For example as orc it's not a good strategy to go raiders + catapults ( the idea is snair and kill ). But the first person ever to do it and figured it's not good, is creative since he created something new
@@P.sherman45 yeah can agree with that
@@P.sherman45 I disagree with creating anything is being creative. I believe achieving the goal of what you want to create is "being creative" and I'll give a few examples why I think that:
"I made a new style of paper airplane" but it doesn't fly. Sure, it may look cool, but you weren't creative in the sense of a paper plane, but instead in visuals.
"I splattered some paint on a piece of paper in rage" - I wanted to create something, but there was no coherent vision. No one else can recognize anything within it.
"I wrote a book" - too vague, anyone can say they wrote a book, but would you call someone creative because they did something, or because it was a well written book?
"I made the 900th sequel of Call of Duty" - Yes, the story is new for the series, but do you see that as creative, or just doing something that works for the hundredth time?
"I dunked my USB in pink ink, then threw a 3D printer at it and afterwards I bellyflopped" - this is new, but it's purely nonsensical. It's not being creative because there was no intent to create something with it.
"I'm a 100 MMR player and I can win routinely by just waiting for the enemy to disconnect" - It's unique, but it's not creative and would never work against anyone who actually wanted to play.
"I never lose at chess because I just flip the board" - it's not creative or new, just something high level players wouldn't do, because it would never cause them to win and it's obviously bad mannered.
I'd love to hear what you'd say about the examples, and maybe I've misread your intent, but I don't believe just thinking about it makes it creative, rather as Grubby has said, having it be executed well is what makes or breaks something.
why do you keep calling the creeps movements "AI"? they aren't learning by any means
LMAO "most unpopular decision by blizzard in the past 15 years was to give windwalk a 2 second cooldown" like it wasnt objectively the most overtuned ability through 1.28 since the release of TFT
I disagree. Creativity is ability to come up with ideas. Execution is an ability to go through with those ideas. Grubby is mixing two things together here.
Grubby's way of playing TC + Pitlord in orc mirror that one time was example of creativity.
Strat is admittedly dogshit (which is why it has never been played again), but at right circumstances it was enough to threw opponent off-balance and by that grant a win against a difficult match. That's a creative out-of-the box thinking.
What Grubby is probably implying is that for something to be creative it must be practical. First, I don't think top grandmasters are that creative. Creativity is born where you're lazy enough to go up the beaten path and try to outperform anyone on it, so you try to cut edges, abuse mechanics, just to get that advantage. But people like that are not becoming WCG champions, because if they can outperform anyone, they don't have to be creative. Furthermore I came from SC here, and there people who executed "creative" strategies on highest level were never those who came up with them. They probably did some final optimizations, but they were never those who came up with an idea. Those who came up with an idea did not have that in themselves to make it work on the highest level, but does that mean that they were not creative, but those who incorporated their findings were? That doesn't sound quite right.
Back to Chimera rush on 2k example. That's not creative. But to build windriders and fight against economy and not opponent's army is creative. It was and it worked until everyone found their way around it. Creep while your base is under siege is creative. Last one is especially counterintuitive and it is something that is used mostly on highest level. It's clever way of thinking and calculating and finding out that even if your base is being damaged, you're gaining more than you're losing and more than your opponent's gaining. That's creative way of playing, which is incorporated to a standard now.
So what I think creativity is (in terms of competitive gaming, which does not quite fit for creative builds really), is to keep looking for solutions that would not normally work, or even be a good idea, but they are under specific circumstances. In that example with that protoss build Grubby devised it would creative if he knew his opponent and he made him believe he does not have to scout, which is one big condition for this build to work.
P.S.: I'm amazed at Grubby's ability to actually question his beliefs. Something I struggle to cultivate in myself. Very commendable!
In case they ever touch it again:
Invulnerability will be a micro transaction for 29cents and 800% value, if you buy 25€ worth of new made up currency
That blade storm was a joke
Just because you're not able to win tournaments with new strats, or at least new strats to yourself, even if you have average or low MMR doesn't mean you are not creative...
That's a bold statement, I'm pretty sure you can consider yourself being creative in some specific domain without being pro at it...
You're wrong about the wage gap
It dawn finally on me why grubby is so witty..
Wow what a match a i think colorful has no chance..
Its creative when you solve a problem inn a new way. If you did't solve a problem then you are just experimenting
i'm a Forc G_G
I personally don't think blizzard was good at balancing their rts games very well (hell, even WoW) despite them being so popular in e-sports. Night elf and Zerg always seemed stronger than the other races. Or at least some races just had too low skill ceilings.
Give it up for toptwochinehchinaof
I don't agree with your creativity take. Or at least, not in every game. In MTG theres literally thousands of intreactions and sometimes an average player have a very creative idea, but may not have the tools to di it th most efficiency way, so a pro see the build and make some changes according to meta and may became the top 1 deck for few mounths, and i think the idea where it all begins, froman averag player aws very creative, and he as too. At least, as far as I know, a lot of MTG strageties came from a average players, because the top tier plays don't spend time been craetive, they spend more time thinking inside de box and trying to play the meta deck as good as they can.
I mean, i beliv been creative are a separaded from the skills. For example my little brother was Diamons for sevral years in Lol, but he never went up. When he meet a frind who was like silver 2 who has no skills in terms of playing the game, but the knowlegde he had about the game was incrdible, he coach my brother and he bcame grand master in a few mounths. I know this is not about reativity, but i want to enlight the point that know about the game, and have the skill to play it are very differnt skills.
Saying that the only people who are creative are those who can make a new build work at the highest levels of play is being an elitist gatekeeper, so I think that characterization is incorrect.
I think creativity is easier to visualize in a different RTS like Starcraft 2. If you have someone who plays like Happy used to, who plays one build every single game but executes it very well, then that's the opposite of creativity; on the other hand, someone who can play off-meta, sub-optimal build orders but is capable of catching their opponents off-guard with them, I would characterize as a creative player, like Gumiho in SC2. He didn't invent any of those build orders, but he's very unpredictable, which makes him dangerous in a different way than someone who plays a very refined build order every single game.
being elitist doesn't mean you're wrong, he's right, creativeness only matters if the build has some use
@@vakkius Even if it's only a one-off Build like his TC/Pit Lord build. If one is just throwing stuff out there to see what sticks isn't being creative, it's being random.
yeaaa first
Casual enjoyers like unorthodox play, even if it's not top-level. In the context of a joe playing the game, "playing creatively" is just trying to make something new work, anything that's a break from routine. You offer an interesting perspective, however, as that definition doesn't account for the value of that work - a better player will win with haphazard builds against *someone*, not because they were skilled at creation but because their mechanics made up for it. I like your definition better in terms of paying respect to a person's ability to create effective builds. Because of the dual meaning, perhaps it would be better to call this innovative?
haven't you given this talk before on innovation? I think something can be creative but not innovative by your definition
chinelf
I love your casts but you digress too much, this was an amazing game between 2 juggernauts I wish you focused on it a little more. :)
Have to say this was the most annoying Grubby comments I've ever seen. Obsessively talking about definitions of Greater vulnerabilities and what the word creative means.
What a joke that lyn loses
Odd to hear Ruff mentioned here. I used to love watching him because of how creative his builds were, always going against the meta and playing just like a wild man. Then I went to his twitter, saw the degenerate stuff he posts, and immediately unfollowed him on twitch. Shame, really.
As a Graphic Designer I can say the term "Creative" is extremely overrated and overused. I'd say someone is creative when genious and intent go together, proof of creativeness in gaming is the skill variable, when someone hits constantly way above their skill level (without using any exploit or OP s**t) by using their genious and intent, I'd say that person is creative and knowledgeful. Doing crazy things is just that.
Omg bladestorm sucks
Anything can be creative..but ur either creatively good...or creatively bad
terrible game by colorful, letting his bears die in the top base fight with 0 micro... using level 1 entangle the entire game while having level 2 treants that was never used.. and grubby starts to speak like a 70 years old grandpa the entire game
I do like hearing your thoughts on things Grubby, but I think the creativity tangent got to the point of gratuitous here. I was really missing the game sense and pro-level casting that I'm used to from you.
He's streaming for many hours at a time. It's natural that he's going to have tangents sometimes, though it does seem as though he knows when he's dedicating certain games or stream time with the intent of uploading to youtube where he might try to avoid this more.
grubby talking about bias against elf is funny...blaming losses to DoT players when he won most of his important games in his career to raider lame and BM harass. elf units are objectively weaker and prone to way more control. losing to bears and kotg as orc is horrendous...kodos and walkers
Noob play by orc
I'd have to disagree. You can be creative without being able to execute it. Be it gaming or quote on quote "real life"
I played Dreadlord + ghouls exclusively for some months before Happy started his DK + ghoul around the start of 2022. Coincidence? I think not! OK, I'm going to get off my high horse now but I'd like to think I had some impact on the meta. I remember I caused a lot of grief to some NE players with ghoul+garg lololol. I think disliking NE is perfectly reasonable and they are very imbecile I mean imba (autocorrect).