Dunno if someone mentioned it for you, but HareBrained Schemes released three Shadowrun Games. It's likely something you have run across but I'd be doing one of my favorite games a disservice if I didn't mention it
I’m okay with people not liking turn based combat, but when people claim that it’s objectively bad confuses me. like when someone says that it being slow is bad, and yet like thats the point?! like you need time to make plans and think of winning strategies and using all given mechanics to win in the best possible way is the fun of it
@@njalsand133 not exactly. There may be more time between "player inputs" in Octopath but the slower combat will be in FF7. That's because Octopath use all the time between inputs for turn 1 and turn 2 for animations of the attacks and damage numbers but FF7 makes you wait with idle animations while bar for next character attack is filling.
@@ianlewis7565I 'm not sure, if people who can't properly write their questions should even bother with games. Especially since old English is used there from time to time. But yea, stories aren't really dark. Yet there are some smaller scenes with cult and vicious animal acts consequences at worst.
Some people hate reading too, and only like action/comedy movies. I think people who think it's objectively bad are just looking for something entirely different when it comes to games.
Turn based combat was never an issue, its generally due to poor design or people not having the patience to play specifically stategy games particularly of the less active variety. Its preference to the same degree of people not liking platformers, action combat games and other genres. The fact that people argue so unbelievably long about something that is just opinion of what you enjoy is unbelievably stupid
You know what COULD have been the best strategy game ever made (if its creators werent so fucking stupid)? VALKYRIA CHRONICLES!! 3rd person shooting mixed with a solid tactics and RPG system! Kick Ass!! Except not because the dipshits who made it and it sequels literally put in "no win" characters and ridiculous scenarios based on story because they think of the game as more a puzzle RPG game than an actual tactics game. But you wouldnt know that if i didnt tell you because the trailers make the game look so interesting and fun (because it is!). Its no wonder the series never really worked out. When you have people in charge who make boneheaded decisions that make people not like it.
Karlach in the game: Pretty muscular. Karlach in fanart: *"SIR, THE MUSCLE DEFINITION AND GROUPS ARE TWO TIMES GREATER THAN WHAT ANY CREATURE HAS EVER ACHIEVED"* *_"MAKE IT TWENTY"_*
One thing I'd like to add is that I like turn based combat systems because you feel like you're actually controlling an entire party without having to turn yourself into a super biocomputer in order to control multiple complex characters in real-time. It's either that or the game allows you to control only one character at a time while the rest of the party is controlled by the AI which, to me, doesn't really give me that feel of being the mastermind behind the whole group.
I feel like tactical/strategy RPGs should be noted as they are a significant sub-genre of turn-based RPGs. (Obvious examples are Fire Emblem and X-com) While they are still turn-based, and prone to many of the strengths and weaknesses of them, they are unique in how they add to the system, primarily by utilising a map/grid system akin to board games, putting emphasis on your and the enemy's positioning and movement.
I agree that it should be acknowledged. Hell, I'll go a step further and say that the prevailing trends in RPG design are fairly heavily influenced by the strategy genre(at least in the West). Back in the mid/late 90's, when the RTS(think stuff like Warcraft, Command and Conquer, and so on) was booming, RPGs also went real-time. It was a bit of a baffling switch, considering how many are based off of tabletop rulesets that were designed around being turn-based, such as with the original Baldur's Gates and adapting D&D. This is how it was for a long time after the RTS faded away. And then the XCOM reboot happened. Now a lot of RPGs in the following years have gone turn-based or at least added a turn-based option. The influence gets especially blatant when you look at any modern RPG that focuses on ranged combat, with a cover system and action economy copied almost verbatim from XCOM.
Personally, I think that a good chunk of people who dislike turn based combat played a bad first example of it and understandably had a bad experience, but what I find interesting is that with turn based combat more than other combat systems, people blame the style itself instead of the way it was implemented (compare the amount of people saying Persona sucks because Joker waits his turn before attacking to the amount of people saying Devil May Cry sucks because it expects you to string together combos)
Kinda surprised you didn’t mention Bravely Default which turned the turns themselves into a resource the player can store up or even go into debt to use early.
or the fact that Default/Second allows you to choose your own Random Encounter Rate/Turn on or off Exp gains. Don't want to face weak trash mobs? turn it to -100% and walk around freely, even allowing for low Level challenge runs if you are crazy enough to attempt something like that. Need some EXP to catch up in levels to gain stats? +100% makes them come much faster wherever you want them to. Not to mention special areas still maintain their challenge by taking away the ability to change that for that specific area so you don't just walk into late game areas and pick up chests for free
Coming from someone who plays Dislyte, promise you it’s not, it’s literally like gambling where the house wins. Self accountable and Self Control, and I can say that for the amount of money I’ve put into the game
You can't really blame the game. If a person doesn't have enough self-control, why play it in the first place, I personally play a couple of them, and I didn't spend anything
From my experience, (which granted only comes from NIKKE and a little bit of Cookie Run Kingdom,) it's nowhere near as predatory as one may think, especially compared to gacha's arguable predecessor: lootboxes. In gacha games, you are guaranteed to not just recieve useless crap, which was the main problem with lootboxes, they were often bloated with things nobody cares for to artificially squeeze more money out of you. Spending money on a Gacha game is effectively paying for a shortcut, however most gachas have multiple avenues for getting out more pulls without paying a dime. Lets take NIKKE as an example, you have dispatches, character episodes, side quests, challenge missions, the tribe tower, molds, quests, mileage tickets, and events. Heck, events aren't even treated as much like FOMO content in that game as others may, with new Nikkes often being added to the standard recruit pool, and even limited Nikkes like how the event for Anne: Snow Fairy is going to be added to the game's event archives so new players can obtain that event's rewards.
Some people just won't give turn based games a try just because they are turn based and say action combat is inherently more interesting or engaging as if it can't quickly devolve into enemies just swarming you and pressing one button to swing your great sword and cleave them all.
Not only that, they treat turn battle as an inferior form of battle system, that was created by necessity because hardware at the time couldn't do what the developers wanted, but now that we have better technology we can abandon it without looking back. Needless to say, that's bullshit! But that's the argument people use...
@@TwilightWolf032 Exactly it's blatantly false on all levels real time games existed before turn based, the original Zelda while primitive used real time combat, and was massively successful, it was an active choice to use turn based for the original Final Fantasy which released a year later because that is the combat system the devs chose not because of any technical limitations.
@@TwilightWolf032 oh, famous words of FF16 creators: "FF never meant to be TBC, we just had no hardware strong enough to make it how it was invisioned. This is intendet gameplay!" and "we can't make TBC in FF16 because it feel wrong in hyper-realism". I just love both reasons... One say there was no inspiration from Ultima and Wizardry and another that magic, elemental gods and air combos with a sword are ok in hyper-realism but not TBC.
One of the things I'd like to explore in an RPG is gaining more and removing additional turns in a single round. The potential to reward and/or punish players is there, and could encourage attentiveness to the combat. EDIT: I meant "explore as a game dev making an RPG" and taking it to its limits. English is hard.
Wild Arms 3 has probably the most elegant way to balance out both random encounters and grinding. Prior to an encounter beginning, you see an exclamation mark pop over your head and can press a button to expend some of a limited (rechargeable) resource to cancel the encounter - harder encounters require more of the resource. As you progress through the game, you get items that raise your Migrant Level which allows you to cancel lower level encounters without expending any of the resource - signified by the exclamation mark being green instead of white. In addition, because the game does not have a traditional MP system and instead uses the Force system for spellcasting, and HP recovers in between fights automatically (again on a resource system), fights are able to encourage the player to be smart and creative and have enemies that are more complicated than just damage sponges meant to drain your resources up to the boss. Speaking of the bosses, if you know what you're doing in the game you can make it to the end of the game never needing to grind, because the game hands out items called Lucky Cards which double the EXP gained in that specific fight - Mystic one over your party on every boss fight and you should have no trouble being at a reasonable level for every battle. For postgame grinding up to the level cap, you can exploit one of the sidequests makes Creeping Chaos monsters appear on the overworld and their only move throws a crapton of debuffs at your party - since every time one of your character's unique abilities triggers in a fight (such as "Poison Ward") it slightly raises the EXP multiplier for that fight. By grinding against these enemies (which you can easily search for since they will not trigger your Green Exclamation Point - a BRILLIANT means of using the mechanic) you can get a really easy and convenient way to powerlevel before you go to take on the postgame final dungeon/superbosses. Another thing that WA3 does that I love which also is done in Dragon Quest XI is the ability to freely change up your party loadout mid-fight. It's not as significant in Wild Arms 3 but does make the more puzzle-oriented gameplay more smooth to deal with. But in Dragon Quest XI it's so natural that by the endgame you don't even need to be told to swap around and stuff. You can just be like, "Oh, the boss is readying a big attack? I can switch in the tank this turn." or, "Okay, I killed most of the mobs using my boomerang, now to clean up the stronger ones using my knives."
Well what's this another falgaia drifter too? Great to mention that wild arms 3 party member order. The migrant level mechanic is great. Being able to avoid nearly any encounters. My only issue is that sometimes you want to properly level Virginia and the team.
Disgaea mentioned, instantly based Blue Dragon has a Turn Order mechanic as well. Although it's much simpler. In Blue Dragon some skills have a gauge in which you can charge, higher the charge the more the damage, however this will put your use of the skill further along the turn order. There's also a red segment of the Guage where if you stop the charge there, it lowers the mp cost. So will you go for max damage at the cost of it happening later, or do it sooner with lowered damage and mp cost?
The funny thing about Scott's JRPG video is he admitted in the BTS video that his takes were surface level and that he wanted to have a more lighthearted video about the genre since he gets asked about it often. As of this comment he still tries RPGs on occasion. He currently managed to get into a Fire Emblem game with Engage and tried Xenoblade 3 for a few hours.
Level scaling is a double edge sword. Sometimes it good to have an even chance but at times, it makes certain things harder to aquire. What should been an easy drop becomes a task.
The Press Turn System in SMT games is very cool: You have to know the elemental weak points of your enemies to get as many turns as possible. You should also know what the elemental weak points of your group are because otherwise your enemy can kill you quickly
Really quick, in favor of terastilization, the idea of the gym leaders using them to change their last pokemon to the same type as the rest of their party actually works well in a lot of ways. Like for Iono’s mismagius, it’s ability Levitate makes it immune to ground types, and by terastilizing into an electric type, it loses it’s only weakness, which forces the player to find a new tactic when they can’t just tap ‘super effective’ move to win. The rest of Scarlet and Violet follows this idea in similar ways, like Sudowoodo becoming a grass type to bait out a Fire type, only to hit it with a rock move.
Point still stands, and it falls back to Pokemon's continuous lack of desire to make the game's actually challenging for people who are adept at pokemon.
One game that does a similar thing with Turn based combat is Radiant Historia. The moves your character makes affects turn order, but you can also move your turn order so that all your team members act one right after the other, but it comes with risks because not only does it give the enemy a turn to attack, but also makes that character vulnerable. Furthermore, your actions can affect enemy placement on the grid. So while it can be a grind, a lot of battles can go quickly worh the right combo, and it’s a good way to practice combinations before bigger fights.
To me, turn based combat allows 2 different benefits over real time. You can focus more on the strategy (positioning, aoes, environment) And you can go crazier with flashy attacks.
I don't understand how people think real time doesn't involve any of the things you just mentioned. Because right off the bat, fighting games automatically sink your opionon . You have to manage everything you just mentioned but you have to do it on the spot. There's no time to sift through menus when you're in the thick of battle. I honestly think people who say stuff like what you just said are just legitimately bad at action games and can't do anything beyond mash buttons it's the only way I can see someone seriously thinking your argument is in anyway valid.
In fact, real time is can be far more difficult than turn based. It certainly requires more skill. Where turn based, the only issue you have is how quickly you can move through a menu to select commands and items.
@NineToFiveGamerUC0079 I never mentioned difficulty. Yes, an action game can go pretty damn flashy with attacks (warriors games for example) and can do strategic gameplay. But the more important that aspect is to the game play, the higher the skill floor is. This is because instead of being able to take your time planning action, you have to improvise or just "git gud" and know.
@@NineToFiveGamerUC0079"real time is far more difficult than turn based" answered your own question as to why strategy is considered a strength of turn based combat. It's much easier to strategize when you can take your time. Because of that, the game can enable itself to be more complex in ways that would be considered impossible in real time. Fighting games don't often require you to think about multiple debuffs at once, for example.
24:50 Ah talking about Atelier to a degree? Nice. There's a similar system in Atelier Iris 2 where everyone uses a gauge order instead of cards, but how it's done is more gratifying since there are two kinds of attacks. Charge ones for boosting your special attack gauge (Which is basically your MP system.) and Break ones (Which delay turn order. Can't use cheesingly due to the turn pushback being smaller every straight time per enemy). As long as one enemy is on the left side of the gauge, you can chain a combo that allows fast SP gain (For mastery of weapons mainly). That balance of when to do charge and break attacks is satisfying to pull off as a result
I'm surprised the Trails games haven't popped up anywhere in this talk because I'd argue they do a fair bit to shake up the usual Turn based stuff. Heck, it's just kinda fun seeing how the combat system evolved for several games. There's a good deal of using movement on the grid to get characters into position to land moves more optimally on opponents or taking into account the range of certain magic spells like buffs and barriers that need characters to be in a certain range for the group variants. Usually, Trails is known much more for the story and characters but their turn based gameplay is more or less Live A Live on steroids. There's also a lot of player power in the admittedly silly amount of ways you can break the game to whatever your whim desires. I think the grind tends to be scaled enough to where you're generally just right for most boss fights so it doesn't really feel like too much grinding unless you want to play super optimal. After the Sky games, the other games added other ways to ease up the grind and reward you for good strategy or play in the way of multipliers. Did ya wipe out some big encounter in roughly 2-3 turns with no damage? Enjoy that fat ass stack. The way you interact with mobs on the field also changes per game with how you can smack the mobs for a starting advantage or down the line, fire a strong field attack that forces a max advantage even on the more elite mobs. I've played all sorts of turn based at this point such as Persona, Live A Live, Golden Sun, Like A Dragon, and SMT 3 and I think out of all of them, Trails is my personal favorite. I'd say it's a neat twist without trying to ape what Paper Mario did by "just add QTES to stuff". That's probably the only thing I really have against Like A Dragon even though I find everything else to be pretty entertaining.
Trails is actual garbage i dont see why so many hype up this game Generic writting fan fiction tier cringe story Shin shaman xeed was right trails legend of legendary hero whatever its called is trash
Mana Khemia's system is pretty good. Legend of Heroe's Trails series does something like this, but expands on it further, where certain turns can get bonus's (guranteed crit, Hp, EP, Cp recovery, Random status effect, and sometimes even detriments like no damage, or ep/ cp loss) considering that this is completely random, but you have a lot of control over the turn order via Arts, AT Delay, or even S craft bursts to pop in at any turn It makes for engaging gameplay that's fresh every time you try it out. It also has a really nice exp curve so that you'll never get over-leveled and it makes you consider about changing up your quartz so that you have different spells or different stat boosters.
24:30 Another game with a turn order gameplay style is Fuga melodies of steel, here though there is a line where is situated that shows when their turn is and different actions determine how long it will take for their next turn but there is also a system that lets you sort of stumble the enemy and make it take longer for them to take a turn but the enemy can do the same. It also has a great story, artstyle and story to check out.
I fell in love with the games this summer. It's got a real satisfying combat loop and will punish you for not managing your time or crew effectively. Had a lot of close moments in the second half of the game. Unfortunately I still lose 2 kids by the end of my first run even when playing safe.
30 minutes seems too short for such a grand sweeping title as ALL turn based. Hmm. Yeah, there's a lot missing. Golden Sun and dynamic changes to how a character plays. Library of Ruina and Predicting vs. Reacting in a turn based system. The massive hole that is positioning if you roped tactics games into this, and the even more massive crafting hell that made grinding even worse. To be honest this was pretty shallow. Not the worst, there are dedicated "game design" channels that manage to be as deep as spilled milk, but the most important point was informing people that everyone fights about turn based vs real time a lot.
My hot take is the "strategy" boils down to abuse weaknesses or just abuse phys being unbalanced, two things which you'd already be doing if the press turn system didn't exist.
@@amimm7776 Only... > Fiends and many bosses have no weaknesses, some switch weaknesses > Weakness abuse won't finish most of battles in single turn, so any high critical attack or/and status ailments can kill someone who didn't care to be ready for those > Nyarly pretty much proved that Nocturne is impossible without buffs/debuffs(I wouldn't call grinding into absurdity of 255 lvl as "possible") > Phys only "broken" in Nocturne. There's many debates about best builds in IV, mostly about gun vs magic. And in V there's no saying, since you're not restricted by anything at all.
When it comes to the topic of Turn Based combat it depends.I love most Turn Based RPGS from old school stuff like Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest to some other games like Eternal Sonata and Xenoblade. My favorite battle systems are obviously from the Mario RPG line up especially the original Mario RPG dating back to the Super Nintendo.Having timed hits is a pretty fun gameplay concept timing your attacks you greatly lower or increase damage.The Mario and Luigi games actually have you dodging attacks entirely by timing your jumps. Now I dont always want a game where you have to time button presses sometimes I just want to relax and play some Digimon Cybersleuth and watch my numbers go up.I dont always need some type of timed hit in an RPG as long as it isnt too easy I will probably like it. I also enjoy turn based strategy games also like the Shining Force and Fire Emblem games as well.I think people who dont like Turn Based games just haven't found the right game yet.
If you like Mana Khemia, you should check out the rest of the Atelier series (Mana Khemia, despite its title, is an Atelier game). Most of them have the turn-order system you like, and the combat is supplemented by a VERY complex and robust crafting system: you can spend as much time in the crafting menus as in combat or dungeons. This is what makes it so fun: instead of grinding to get stronger, you craft stronger items and equipment to buff your stats. Making a new item can be a very involved process, but the difference in power after you equip it is tangible and extremely satisfying: you feel like you earned that OP weapon by making it yourself rather than having it offered to you in a treasure chest.
I love turn based systems, particularly ones where your enemy can take advantage of the mechanics offered. Such as this one is in the area colored like the area you're in but not actually the area you're in(just an arena). A 3D battle where you can block frontal attacks, but have increased criticals from behind on top of unblockable. Does take it easy letting you have free rein on this specific mechanic for quite awhile. First strong boss where my stongest one is away from the party, as well as my tank. Making due with my glass canon, bringing in back my healer and a hybrid offense, after caught up on levels. But boss casually gets behind my healer, pulls out a blunderbuss and one shots her. Throughout if you leave a gap or can't punish a careless dive like that, the boss would go behind the biggest threat/obstacle and take advantage of that critical. The only shame in this case is that so few enemies actually care about positions unless its a gimmick based on the battle area. I do want more and more games to bring in the current area like BG3 does for combat, gets me much more invested prior to encounters/fights. Whether its burning a ladder or choosing how to initiate the battle, plenty of options make plenty of fun.
i particularly like turn based combat because it's a lot more forgiving to people who simply don't have the hands for it. while fast-paced, snappy combat feels great to play to those with experience, a lot of gamers forget that not everyone simply _knows_ how to use a controller or a mouse/keyboard setup. new players will find fighting games or rhythm games MUCH more intimidating than turn-based combat games because they (fighting/rhythm games) require a level of physical mastery that can be more difficult than the mental mastery of turn-based games. while i've got some level of mastery of all three genres, my hands and reflexes also have a few issues that can flare up, and i can engage in turn-based gameplay at my mental peak regardless.
A turn based rpg can be done right. the kind hat most people complain about involve rpgs where you can out level enemies and the rest of the game devolves into turning on auto or mashing attack, but a proper rpg can do so much more without making it feel like it overcompensated too much and end up too hard. just as a few examples, Persona has the weakness system which allows you to fell all enemies and end each fight in a stylish all-out attack. Mana Khemia has a swap in system which makes fights more like a combo trigger then just simple turn based combat, and the game actually scales up properly when you get to the point in the game where you can do it, so it becomes expected that you learn it. Crystal Project which has exploration more like a metroidvania, where if you can jump somewhere then it was likely intended but if you cant then you might have to come back later when you are capable of jumping higher or farther, the battles are standard turn based but the level cap is 60 and optional bosses become stronger and stronger while you have to find the method to beat them at the same level (you can also see their attacks in advance so nothing is a surprise once you start the fight). And ofc games that have more player input without it feeling like too much, time attacks from Super Mario RPG or Sea of Stars, combo systems in battle like legend of dragoon or Neptunia (of all things), or games that just break the mold like Labyrinth of Refrain where you can have up to 5 teams of 3 units for a total of 15 units in battle.... which incidentally doesn't make the game that much easier 😂. Needless to say, i love them and i love discovering new ones.
When you mentioned environments having an impact on combat and focused mostly on Baldur’s Gate 3 you could add that terrain has effects in some games such as Fire Emblem too, affecting hit rates (unless you’re a magic user) and in Triangle Strategy (one example) height increases range of attack with arrows
I never understand the stigma against turn based RPGs but regardless I've always liked them even after getting introduced to real time,strategy or even action rpgs Also at 1:12 there's The World Ends With You!
Bravely Default’s combat system is my personal favorite. The risk reward system of using or storing turns is so cool. It makes menial enemies less of a drag because you can obliterate them with ease and for tougher enemies the stored turns system can lead to some breathtaking strategies. The thoughts of “I could just barely finish this guy off if I go in the red, but is it worth the punishment of if I’ve underestimated him?” just make the game so much more intense.
One RPG series that respects the player's time when it comes to leveling and encounters is the legend of heroes Trails series. Beginning in Trails from Zero you can attack enemies on the field to stun them, but if you are overleveled, then they would be killed and you would receive a fraction of the currency you normally would when you fight. You wouldn't get other items like ingredients, so backtracking to attack enemies effectively becomes a choice. Those side quests often include monster extermination, so it's up to you if you want to fight the lower level enemies to acquire the craft points needed for your special attacks so you're prepared for the quest monster. And due to some characters having different weapons you are incentivized to put certain characters in your parties simply because they are better at eliminating on field monsters
Sounds more like "we didn't bother to balance out encounters and make sure that engaging in all of them will be enjoyable/satisfying, so let's just give it to the players. After all, who cares about appropriate gradual leveling" then respecting anything.
As a dude that plays competitive pokemon,the reason why rotation battles where taking about it is because nobody play them...like...almost nobody,and the idea of using 1 mecanic for 1 gen is because mega evolutions broke the game SOOOOO much they need it to go,but the idea of bringing mecanics to the game every time makes that gen meta diferent from the last gen...for example in gen 8 for a long time Mylotic became the best pokemom to the point where if you did not preper for her you lost,and Mylotic stop bieng good in gen 3 the gen it came to the game
the ideal gym leader team should have some way of countering its common weaknesses. im currently making a rom hack of platinum and ive given roark a nosepass over his geodude. nosepass is not 4x weak to either type geodude is, and i gave it shock wave to help it deal with water types. then he still has onix and cranidos and onix has rock tomb and bulldoze (added in) to lower your speed so that cranidos has an easier time hitting you. you can still win fairly easily, especially since there are more options in the early game (as well as having buffed some of said options). it isn't meant to be overwhelming, and turtwig still cleanly sweeps, but it's still more difficult than you would have had to deal with before where all of his mons instantly die to any of the starters.
On the tabletop front, you do have Starfinder and some sci fi based dnd settings (Spelljammer, Star Wars 5e) if you want the mechanics but not the sword and sorcery.
Imo, you should _always_ be able to outscale all single-player content if you want to, with enough effort. There can be an extra difficulty selection that can _add_ scaling and/or level caps, but it should never be required/forced upon you. The ultimate accessibility compromise. Additionally, I am hoping to make a little RPG series with engaging qte attacks/defenses in the vein of Sea of Stars or Mario&Luigi.
I can agree with this. Sometimes I just wanna hunt down trash mobs for 7 years straight and still have the boss be able to function if I end up over leveled.
I played the new game Sea of Stars and I love it so far. Reminded me of Golfen Sun. It's turn based combat has these sorta Mario and Luigi style mini games for increased you can also time defense blocks against attacks. Not to mention weakness and stance advantages. Always engaging. Wish pokemon was remotely updated like this.
I feel like turn based combat will never be outdated, until we can have an action system that actually has strategy over skill. RPG mechanics tend to weaken action games, and it’s really hard to capture what makes turn based RPGs special in action RPGs unless it’s Dark Souls. But that is a very simple combat system with only a few types of attacks which simulates turn based combat to an extent while also making stats matter.
We have had action games with "strategy over skill" since 2009/2011 They're called Demon's Souls and Dark Souls 1 The bosses in those games far more emphasize out lf the box thinking or using the evironment to your advantage(aside from the AotA DLC), with many of the bosses having built in "cheese" or quirks to their arenas that make the fight a lot easier
Best ff game is the 4 remake on the ds. There is an argument that 13 has the best battle system as you end up making more meaningful decisions, only issue is everything else about 13 is awful except maybe the soundtrack.
My biggest issue with most turn based combat systems is that the focus on numbers. My reaction to tough fights shouldn't be to open Excel and grind, but it often is, because it's WAY easier and more efficient than trying to find a strategy, especially knowing that my strategy might not even exist, or rely on RNG.
Well yeah. The entire reason that stats exist at all is so that the character's abilities are separate from the player's. Action games test the player's reflexes, turn-based games test their preparation. The strategies are mostly how you build your team to have access to different tools. If a turn-based RPG has weak character building or badly balanced tools (i.e. when the buffs / debuffs / status effects aren't worth using) then it can definitely suck. I agree that a lot of story-heavy RPGs can have lackluster combat. I think dungeon crawler RPGs tend to do better, so maybe try some games like Etrian Odyssey or Shin Megami Tensei.
That's why i kind of like trails series, sure you can grind, but the exp curve is designed in a way that you are better off just strategizing with different characters and quartz instead of getting one more level
18:03 Whilst they don't have the same level of mid-combat environmental interaction (aka: no shoving people into pits or leaping massive distances), I do know that the original isometric Fallout games handle a lot of things similarly to Baldur's Gate (which makes sense, they were inspired by ttrpg's of their time). Furthermore, whilst I haven't played them (yet), I'm fairly certain the Wasteland series has stuck with the isometric turn based RPG style.
Pokemon has some interaction with the battlefield with entry hazards, like spikes, that damage pokemons that enter into the battlefield, or terrains that affect pokemon touching the ground, for example Electric terrain protects pokemon from falling asleep (opponents included). Also during X/Y certain parts of the battlefield, like piles of snow, could appear in the background of the battlefield and if an attack destroyed them (no idea how) they could hold an item
Funny thing as a kid I didn't know English and played pokemon Ruby So I got stuck in the first town where I had to fight May to proceed Since I didn't know, my brain thought maybe I had to evolve my Treeko So I got my Treeko to final evolution in the first town of the game and discovered that I just had to fight May
Raihan is the best gym leader because he DOESN'T have a monotype team. Monotype teams as bosses are the worst and easiest thing to fix Pokemon has. I was shocked when I saw a gym leader being a double battle that actually used some sort of strategy. Just to have all that removed in the rematch. Even something as silly has a "only round pokemon gym" would make things more interesting than what we had for decades.
For scaling I strongly prefer the Skies of Arcadia way of doing it. Basically it only applies to the many optional bosses instead of all enemies. For the turn order point; Nostalgia, the Xenosaga trilogy and even Megaman X Command Mission come to mind as good examples. (also Persona baton passing type mechanic) On the there had, I've never been a fan of ATB mechanics. For encounters I do generally prefer non-random because it is better for both avoiding and seeking out encounters. Then it can be brought to another level of engagement by properly implemented ambush/surprise mechanic, encounter linking, encounter chains etc. Also, in regards to grinding and rare item hunting, I always appreciate when an RPG gives more exp and better drop rates for taking advantage of other mechanics. (including ones mentioned in this comment) All of this also applies to action JRPGs that still use an encounter based system. (Tales, Star Ocean, Rouge Galaxy etc.) Of course these aren't hard requirement for a game to be good. Heck, Suikoden V is still my #1 JRPG despite having almost none of the things I mentioned.
18:38 the ability was reworked in the newer games but in the original ruby and sapphire you'd just use a group of pick up artists to collect rare candies for you.
Theres this H game called Black Souls 2 and it has one of the BEST rpg mechanics but the thing is it has very few twists and doesnt have any mechanics where you have to perform a mechanical action for extra damage. Despite this you can DEFEAT AND CLEAR the WHOLE game at lv1 on the HIGHEST difficulty just with strategy. This include dlc 3 which rekts players even with all the stats capped and yet just by using the right strategy you can defeat them (albiet very slowly). I think if more rpgs made you able to defeat enemies at lv1 while still giving a challenge than it would be perfect. But to be fair black souls 2 is too kino to be replicated.
I must’ve played Golden Sun 2 at least a half dozen times, the most novel aspect was its dynamic 2D ‘camera,’ which I’ve never really seen before or again since
for the second point I think you could do the Chrono way. both chrono games have the enemies on the overworld, and generally speaking you're forced to have some battles and those battles leave you always on the right lvl for the current encounter. So if you need more of something for some reason(money, exp, etc) you can grind. but the pace is made in a way that is not needed. (there's a stat subsystem for chrono cross but youll never need it)
CRPGs as a genre in general do what you enjoyed in BG3. If you are looking for something not traditional high fantasy, the original Fallout games were turn based and there is Rogue Trader coming out pretty soon
Not entirely. It doesn't have screen transitions for combat and happens within the world. There are probably points in which it effects the combat (being around a corner to break line of sight or door ways for funnels), but nothing like shoving or throwing.
I don't like direct scaling in rpgs. Gotta backtrack? Too bad, all those enemies you just slogged through are always going to be as strong as you. It doesn't take away the problem of needing to grind, it just takes away the benefits of choosing to do so. I like to grind to a degree, it can be quite relaxing and a good way to prepare for a challenge ahead if you feel like you're falling behind. The problem there is when you are forced to grind. Unfun grinding and direct scaling can be removed entirely from a game with turn based combat if you have this little thing no one likes to talk about called "care" put into its progression. Screw it up, you're game's less fun. Get it right, you'll never have to deal with those issues.
There will be the time when people will finally get, that there's usually no need to grind, unless you want something specific or feel insecure about your ability to win with levels you have. And actually, the second problem of being underleveled is actually much bigger in games with manual encounters everyone loves so much instead of random. Why? Because there, developer have no way to properly guide players level to the upcoming boss.
Turn based game? Let me introduce you to the beauty of Library of Ruina. Currently the only one unique "turn based" game where the enemy won't just sit still receiving your attacks. The enemy and your character will clash each other and create an amazing scene to see. Also this is improved in its sequel game Limbus Company, which now all 6 vs 6 characters will clash at once in a single turn. If you're into turn based games, I'm very recommending trying out Library of Ruina (pc/switch) to start with
I love how masochistic pokemon grind subject has fire emblem music in the background as I play Three Houses on maddening intentionally looking for training battles with 3 priests - since they have very limited spells and get to heal 20% hp per turn vaiting them to forests or thickets and swinging at them with brojen weapons until turn 95 (turn 99 is game over) to then kill them - I got 2 A ranks per characters in chapter 6 with no ng+ save.
Bravely Second had one of the best leveling up systems for turn based that I'm shocked it was never copied or implemented elsewhere. If you win a battle at a single turn, you have the option to do another battle for more exp & money, and you can continue until you choose to stop or the 1-hit sweep ends. It easily makes grinding faster & fun, especially since B2ND has multiple ways to do 1-turn sweeps with the right setups. Also, encounter rate toggles should be a thing. Give the player the option to turn it up for grinding or putting it down to zero because area is full of mooks. Again, I' shocked this is never implemented in more games. And I say this coz my main issue with most games is how grindy it can be. Like, it feels unnecessarily long just to achieve something. Be it trying to craft a weapon because the drop rates are absurdly low or just reach that level needed to unlock a move.
I’m making a turn based RPG with a sci-fi based story. It has elementals which were specifically ordered by the government to be experimented on to learn their inner workings. The actual turn based aspect of the game is very similar to that of Deltarune, but without the skilled based dodging. Instead dodging in my game is just a button, which allows you to dodge any incoming attacks and will get you more energy if you were attacked while dodging. Other than that encounters are pretty easy, only taking 2-3 hits to kill an enemy and grinding is merely an option as with enough skill (or the right equipment) you could theoretically kill off all of the bosses. There is a bunch of customization you can do outside the battle in the blacksmith’s shop which can get you a bunch of different effects on your gear to make them better. There’s also different weapon types which have different QTEs and behaviors. Default weapons are consistent, projectiles have a random number added on, and spears can get you an accuracy score of 9.5, essentially multiplying your attack by 1.5. There’s also also a bunch of effects based on elements that can be combined up to 4 elements. Anything can be combined with anything. Sorry for the long comment but there’s just a lot of work that went into making this and I might’ve gotten carried away, but I think the game is fun to play since half the time it distracts me from actually working on/fixing it.
About Pokemon. Despite me totally agreeing with what said in this part there's also one problem that is totally on the players - overleveling. Catching everything on their way, abusing raids and so on. If you plan your team beforehand and only fight trainers on the way, you come to Nessa at least 5 levels lower. Same thing with grind with many games overall. Like Octopath. You don't need to grind like so many people cry. You only need to rotate your party and all the "mandatory" battles between towns and additional dungeons that can be found will level you up properly. Or in SMT 4 - don't grind, do sidequests! Honestly, P5 overdone it's handholding of player's leveling. And now Octopath 2 is stupidly casual allowing to beat up bosses easily being 10 levels below... if you manage to be underleveled somehow. While SMTV broke leveling with only overworld enemies in open-world. Why something like proper Pokemon, Digimon Story and Octopath without some stupid QTEs or unnecessary mess of types became too much to ask?! =__=
For those looking at a future SciFi turn based RPG, Warhammer 40K Rogue Trader is in beta now. It's developed by OwlCat games who previously did Sword and Sorcery CRPGs using the Pathfinder System (which is heavily influenced by DND), so it might scratch the right itch.
Before Baldur's Gate 3 was released there was a really good CRPG called Solasta: Crown of the Magister. It was heavily based on the DnD 5e ruleset and had a pretty large focus on verticality. I remember taking advantage of the environment by shoving enemies off cliffs ort shooting suspended objects to drop on enemies like the time I ambushed a trio of ghouls with my party being perched on a walkway and I had my Wizard cast a fireball, and wound up killing 2 of the ghouls instantly with the fireball alone because I also aimed the fireball to where it'd hit a chandelier hanging on the ceiling and cause it to fall and that was what killed the last ghoul. Also it's fun when the party starts getting items/spells that let them wall climb or fly and use it to quickly get to enemies trying to snipe from vantage points only for a Paladin or a Druid who wild shaped into a bear and his eagle spirit companion start flying in order to start bum rushing them Only problem I have is that without the DLCs you only get 7 classes and 5 races for characters (though 3 of them have 2 subraces to pick from) It is kinda understandable since the Devs are much smaller than Larian studios.
Biggest problem with Octopath's scaling is that the bosses scale unequally. For some it makes no difference except marginally increased stats. Others actually get much harder especially if it's exactly the fourth boss you fight (since the "scaling" only applies to the chapter 1 bosses up to 4 party members). Not a good example of scaling done well in turn-based games in my opinion.
You do know that the game "scales" only until you have the full party of 4, right? And I'm genuinely wondering, what boss do you think got actually hard after scaling? Because I can only think of one boss being much harder solo than in a team.
@@Louis_Cyphriel Yeah, and it's only for the chapter 1 bosses, so claiming that Octopath has "scaling" is a stretch, I agree. I only referred it that way since Mangakamen did in his video and I was responding to that. And what you said doesn't contradict my main point: the "scaling" is very uneven and poorly though out.
@@edcaoushow can it be uneven or poorly thought out if it literally scales only taking into account number of party members? And again, I asked for the example of your claim, that it makes any bosses significantly harder and/or smarter.
About Pokemon: Kamen, I can't believe you just gave the problem AND the solution, Pokemon offline difficulty IS for kids, litteraly, and I'm glad for it because I want Pokemon to be appreciated by the youngest generations as I could appreciate it back in the day when I was the youngest gen. Plus you already stated yourself what the solution is for experienced players that are looking for a challenge, you will have to go through easy mode anyway by beating the League after 10 hours or so but then go grind for the Master Ball rank and I can assure those 10 hours injected in "easy mode that lets everyone have a go at it" will feel so small in comparison to the time you really injected in Pokemon when you were fighting, not the NPC's that need to be jokes, but the real deal: other players that just like you are here to go all out with their strategie and claim victory for the current battle, and ho boy do we all do that once we reach the Hyper Ball and above ranks You could make an argument that there's no intermediate/medium difficulty in the latest Pokemon games but not much else difficulty-wise IF you're not looking for hard mode OFFLINE ONLY, I mean I don't get it, as long as I get to beat another trainer that really stood in my way for me to claim victory I'd rather beat this trainer that's a real person than some coded-in strategy-already-included-in-the-game but that's on me
"Kamen, I can't believe you just gave the problem AND the solution," That's kind of the point - You point out the problem and give a solution. "Pokemon offline difficulty IS for kids, litteraly, and I'm glad for it because I want Pokemon to be appreciated by the youngest generations as I could appreciate it back in the day when I was the youngest gen." I'm not. I would prefer there being a difficulty mode for the games to be given, something that was actually a feature at one point - And would be a good thing. "other players that just like you are here to go all out with their strategie and claim victory for the current battle, and ho boy do we all do that once we reach the Hyper Ball and above ranks" Cept that ignores all of the other elements of that - Such as actually having a proper team to go online - Since the games don't really prepare you for that, and frankly to get a good time, it takes hours to get one.
In one of my previous jobs, where I'd be there for long hours with either nothing to do, or regularly interrupted, I liked using turn based combat games to pass the time. It gave me little to no consequence when I either had to regularly stop combat to help a customer, or if I misclicked due to touch screen controls. But a lot of the time I tried playing TBC games at home, especially grinding character levels, I'd consider going to see the doctor to get diagnosed with narcolepsy with how easy it put me to sleep.
One item I really like from Darkest Dungeon 2 is the Temptation, in darkest dungeon you have the death's door mechanic, where you character has a chance of surviving an attack that would kill then. Temptation removes your character's deaths door but it also provides a 50% chance of getting an extra turn every round, which is really powerful specially with characters that can buff themselves in order to do massive damage
Deathbulge Battle of the Bands was an interesting idea for a ATB battle system. The ATB gauge is shared between all characters and needs to be constantly monitored. Each of the different characters can modify how it charges, but also must take the damage if the enemies ATB gauge charges first. Also your buffs and debuffs are applied to the ATB gauge and not the characters. So you have to balance switching mid charge to the tank to take a hit while swapping in the fast character to make sure the gauge charges faster.
I also like this in-between you can find in games like Grandia or Child of Light with the action bar. Basically the bar consists of a "Wait" (2/3) and "Prepare" (1/3) section. Every character moves from left to right on that bar and once they reach the end of "Wait" it is their turn and the character chooses an action. Considering how fast the action is (with stronger being slower) they move accordingly on the "Prepare" section and the action will be executed once they reached the end of the bar. However, if a character gets attacked while preparing an action, the action will be interrupted completely and the character starts from the beginning of his "Wait" phase again. Sadly this system is rarely utilized....
Another point to the grind of RPGs, Paper Mario has the Star Point system where 100 points equals a level up ALWAYS, you can grind levels but if you’re too strong (say a Level 12 Mario fighting a Level 1 Goomba) enemies just won’t give you Star Points meaning that as long as you stick to the main story you won’t be too underleveled.
I’ve been playing the Chrono series and a bit of Persona 5. I don’t think it’s the combat that’s the problem. Rather it’s how the game makes you engage the combat and how it’s balanced. If you remove random encounters and gave the player the choice to engage with the combat by physically touching the enemy like the previously mentioned games, that could greatly reduce the tedium of it. Then you have to make it more snappy and not built around repeatedly fighting. Chrono Trigger gave you the option to grind, but made it more fun to experiment with different party load outs and figure which characters had the best synergy. So as long as you had that figured out, you can avoid as many of the normal encounters as you want. Combine that with a good elemental weakness system (and no overly elaborate animations) and you might have a near perfect turn based combat system.
As much as BG3 is a great game... turn-based combat was quite alive and well enought without it. Like, you know, in past few years we had Persona 5, SMTV, Dragon Quest, Octopath, big indies like Sea of Stars or Chained Echoes and Cassette Beasts
I don’t mind turned based combat as a whole, but the JRPG kind of combat I’ve never cared for because it always felt spammy from what I remember, although I haven’t tried it for years so I may change my mind. I tend to prefer combat like Xcom (which I believe is called turn based tactics) because while there’s definitely an RNG factor, but it feels like your decisions matter more since I felt like I couldn’t just spam the same strategy every time. Another example is FTL:Faster Than Light. Speaking of that game, while it’s not on the level of BG3s environment in battles (which reminds me how much I need to play this game), FTL has various battlefields that add different effects (like solar flares causing fires, or nebulas disabling your sensors).
If I be so daring to recommend anything that won't fell "spammy" with a little challange that still more or less teach the player, I would suggest SMT IV. Sure, there's P5 too but I'm not so sure about it's difficulty and spamliness for such question.
24:21 Monster Hunter Stories has a similar system where, after each turn, a QTE might occur which forces the player to pay attention to what is going on, as at any moment, your monster and the enemy will run at each other full force and you have to mash a to win.
In terms of my favorite combat for creature taming RPG games, my favorite one would have to be Temtem. Although I think Pokémon combat wasn't bad, I wouldn't say they could have had the best combat when done well cause Temtem changed things that made the combat better rather than same combat with better handling. So although I had alot of fun in older Pokémon games, I will say there were ways they could had improved though. Such as replacing BP with Stamina, Stamina is shared between all your moves, making it harder to spam your strongest skills, even more so since you need to wait a few turns before using your strongest skill too, Stamina although depletes faster and it also resets per battle so you don't have to constantly heal unless you have low HP. And because of that, each fights is just that much harder, even more so since there's nothing that makes you stronger mid-fight like mega-evolution in the newer Pokémon game and harder to instant kill the creature so you may have to heal often but because of your low HP which I prefer. It also highlights the creature in green or red to tell you if they are weak or strong against that type skills, making it easier for people who didn't memorized all Pokémon if it's hard to tell at a glance. It's 2v2 by default rather than Pokémon 1v1 (Creature wise, not player, so 1 player uses 2 creature all at once), but Temtem has better teamwork mechanic too. Temtem don't forget any moves either, only use 4 moves just like Pokémon, but you just switch since you didn't forgot, simple as that, no item involved. Lol XD
I will say that the Shadowrun RPGs are pretty good if you're still looking for good suggestions for Turn based games where the environment matters a bit. it's nowhere near as in-depth as BG3 still of course, and it is technically still fantasy, but it's Cyberpunk Fantasy with a very different take on fantasy elements. And since things like guns are commonplace, then any objects in the environment to act as cover can change the nature of a fight. There's also a lot of fights across the games that add specific elements to them like needing to reach a certain point or grab something and evac, or things like that where the goal of the fight isn't just killing everyone else. Also there's class based elements where things like Summoners can get free summons depending on their environment and Drone users can send their drones in places that normal characters can't fit through.
as soon as you have to manage a party -> turn based is the better system or at least Pause system! if you control a single character and your party is basically non existend / is removed from any larger battle (like Kingdom Hearts)... yeah i'm fine with action.
Just gonna say that Library of Ruina is a turn based Korean game with in depth combat and a great story. Only downsides are that it’s only dubbed in Korean (really good voice acting though), has a lot of dark themes (so read warnings if you care), and has terrible tutorials. Other than that it’s a fun and challenging turn based game.
Recently got into LoR and i agree with you. Despite it's rather lacking in tutorial, i found the game to be very fun and challenging AND it get better and more harder the more you progress throughout the game. I wouldn't say having only Korean Dub is a downside, it's better than having no voice at all... you know, like Pokemon...
Caligula Effect 1 and 2 has a unique mechanic for turn based RPGs. Instead of there being a turn order, each character and enemy has moves that take up a certain amount of time. Everyone moves simultaneously, but each move takes up a different amount of time. For example, stronger more powerful attacks might take 3 seconds while weaker attacks might take 1 second, giving the option to use more attacks in less time or use more time to take a more powerful action. You can choose when exactly the characters start and end their actions, and preview what will happen before you actually take your actions, allowing you to perfectly time your attacks to dodge or counter your enemies. I liked the mechanic a lot - it led to a lot of strategy in the turn-based combat and every encounter felt fresh. I would definitely recommend it if you’re looking for an rpg with a unique battle system. The story is very similar to stuff like Persona, and I particularly like the characters is Caligula Effect 2.
I don't know about second but first was heavily criticized for this combat being extremely sluggish and boring and I can agree. As much as it sounds interesting and fun, timing your attacks to timeline takes stupidly long and novelty fades fast.
Someone already probably said this, but a sci-fi turn based rpg that's coming up that i'd recommend is Owlcat's "warhammer 40k rogue trader". It releases on the 7th of december if anyone is intrested.
I haven't played it but my friends have mentioned something called Warhammer Rogue Trader which seems to take a similar approach as BG3. They're also just trying to get me into Warhammer stuff in general.
Chrono trigger had some of the best tbc I’ve ever seen for 5 reasons. (Spoiler alert) 1. It let’s you choose at the beginning if you wanted the standard turn based (your turn, enemy turn your turn etc.) or real time which all turns are based on if you’re fast enough to act before the enemies, if you were truly fast enough you could chain several attacks together. Always played with real time though. 2. There were so many unique interactions that made you think whether or not you should use a certain move. 3. Chrono dies at one point if you get to that point, meaning you now have to rethink your strategy as your source of life is now gone. 4. Dual and triple techs. These made the party customization so much different and allowed for different strategies and made you question whether or not to include certain party members meaning you could end fights in one turn. 5. Once you get a feel for what to do, you carry that for all future gameplays, meaning you can set up attacks and you gain access to knowledge like dinosaurs get stunned by lightning, your reflexes are much quicker and you can even beat the final boss earlier in the game since you know what to do (ng+ recommened)
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you should totally check out brutal orchestra, it does so much in making turn based combat engaging.
Can you do the Right and Wrong ways to make a Rival: Kamen Rider Edition
Dunno if someone mentioned it for you, but HareBrained Schemes released three Shadowrun Games. It's likely something you have run across but I'd be doing one of my favorite games a disservice if I didn't mention it
18:05 For a post apocalyptic one- Wasteland 3 by inXile. For a sci fi one- Colony Ship by Iron Tower.
I’m okay with people not liking turn based combat, but when people claim that it’s objectively bad confuses me. like when someone says that it being slow is bad, and yet like thats the point?! like you need time to make plans and think of winning strategies and using all given mechanics to win in the best possible way is the fun of it
Slowness depends entirely on how long you must wait to do an action
@@njalsand133 not exactly. There may be more time between "player inputs" in Octopath but the slower combat will be in FF7. That's because Octopath use all the time between inputs for turn 1 and turn 2 for animations of the attacks and damage numbers but FF7 makes you wait with idle animations while bar for next character attack is filling.
@@ianlewis7565I 'm not sure, if people who can't properly write their questions should even bother with games. Especially since old English is used there from time to time. But yea, stories aren't really dark. Yet there are some smaller scenes with cult and vicious animal acts consequences at worst.
This is also why Pokemon nuzlockes have become such a big thing for people over the years. Planning is a fundamental part of it.
Some people hate reading too, and only like action/comedy movies. I think people who think it's objectively bad are just looking for something entirely different when it comes to games.
Turn based combat was never an issue, its generally due to poor design or people not having the patience to play specifically stategy games particularly of the less active variety. Its preference to the same degree of people not liking platformers, action combat games and other genres. The fact that people argue so unbelievably long about something that is just opinion of what you enjoy is unbelievably stupid
You know what COULD have been the best strategy game ever made (if its creators werent so fucking stupid)? VALKYRIA CHRONICLES!! 3rd person shooting mixed with a solid tactics and RPG system! Kick Ass!! Except not because the dipshits who made it and it sequels literally put in "no win" characters and ridiculous scenarios based on story because they think of the game as more a puzzle RPG game than an actual tactics game. But you wouldnt know that if i didnt tell you because the trailers make the game look so interesting and fun (because it is!). Its no wonder the series never really worked out. When you have people in charge who make boneheaded decisions that make people not like it.
Karlach in the game: Pretty muscular.
Karlach in fanart: *"SIR, THE MUSCLE DEFINITION AND GROUPS ARE TWO TIMES GREATER THAN WHAT ANY CREATURE HAS EVER ACHIEVED"*
*_"MAKE IT TWENTY"_*
Not complaining btw
Baki mangaka: *Is that a challenge?*
Dio-“FINALLY, a worthy opponent!”
MORE! *MORE!*
One thing I'd like to add is that I like turn based combat systems because you feel like you're actually controlling an entire party without having to turn yourself into a super biocomputer in order to control multiple complex characters in real-time.
It's either that or the game allows you to control only one character at a time while the rest of the party is controlled by the AI which, to me, doesn't really give me that feel of being the mastermind behind the whole group.
I feel like tactical/strategy RPGs should be noted as they are a significant sub-genre of turn-based RPGs. (Obvious examples are Fire Emblem and X-com)
While they are still turn-based, and prone to many of the strengths and weaknesses of them, they are unique in how they add to the system, primarily by utilising a map/grid system akin to board games, putting emphasis on your and the enemy's positioning and movement.
Final Fantasy Tactics has cool stuff with the Job system so that you have a class based around talking or math. I really want a new one.
Aye, seriously!
This can be easily expanded upon, too! ÒwÓ
I agree that it should be acknowledged. Hell, I'll go a step further and say that the prevailing trends in RPG design are fairly heavily influenced by the strategy genre(at least in the West). Back in the mid/late 90's, when the RTS(think stuff like Warcraft, Command and Conquer, and so on) was booming, RPGs also went real-time. It was a bit of a baffling switch, considering how many are based off of tabletop rulesets that were designed around being turn-based, such as with the original Baldur's Gates and adapting D&D. This is how it was for a long time after the RTS faded away. And then the XCOM reboot happened. Now a lot of RPGs in the following years have gone turn-based or at least added a turn-based option. The influence gets especially blatant when you look at any modern RPG that focuses on ranged combat, with a cover system and action economy copied almost verbatim from XCOM.
The best example of turn base combat is internet debates.
Personally, I think that a good chunk of people who dislike turn based combat played a bad first example of it and understandably had a bad experience, but what I find interesting is that with turn based combat more than other combat systems, people blame the style itself instead of the way it was implemented (compare the amount of people saying Persona sucks because Joker waits his turn before attacking to the amount of people saying Devil May Cry sucks because it expects you to string together combos)
Kinda surprised you didn’t mention Bravely Default which turned the turns themselves into a resource the player can store up or even go into debt to use early.
or the fact that Default/Second allows you to choose your own Random Encounter Rate/Turn on or off Exp gains. Don't want to face weak trash mobs? turn it to -100% and walk around freely, even allowing for low Level challenge runs if you are crazy enough to attempt something like that. Need some EXP to catch up in levels to gain stats? +100% makes them come much faster wherever you want them to. Not to mention special areas still maintain their challenge by taking away the ability to change that for that specific area so you don't just walk into late game areas and pick up chests for free
It was truly a great evolution of the turn-based system.
Or press turn and atb
Kinda ironic for a game called Bravely DEFAULT
Video Idea: The Predatory History of Gacha Games
It's not predatory if you don't have money wehehehe.
But there's too much to talk about!
Coming from someone who plays Dislyte, promise you it’s not, it’s literally like gambling where the house wins. Self accountable and Self Control, and I can say that for the amount of money I’ve put into the game
You can't really blame the game. If a person doesn't have enough self-control, why play it in the first place, I personally play a couple of them, and I didn't spend anything
From my experience, (which granted only comes from NIKKE and a little bit of Cookie Run Kingdom,) it's nowhere near as predatory as one may think, especially compared to gacha's arguable predecessor: lootboxes. In gacha games, you are guaranteed to not just recieve useless crap, which was the main problem with lootboxes, they were often bloated with things nobody cares for to artificially squeeze more money out of you.
Spending money on a Gacha game is effectively paying for a shortcut, however most gachas have multiple avenues for getting out more pulls without paying a dime. Lets take NIKKE as an example, you have dispatches, character episodes, side quests, challenge missions, the tribe tower, molds, quests, mileage tickets, and events. Heck, events aren't even treated as much like FOMO content in that game as others may, with new Nikkes often being added to the standard recruit pool, and even limited Nikkes like how the event for Anne: Snow Fairy is going to be added to the game's event archives so new players can obtain that event's rewards.
Y7 and the Infinite Wealth demo are the two best turn-based games I've ever played can't wait for the full Infinite Wealth
Oh, Yakuza 7?
I get it
They so amazing changes to the combat system with infinite wealth. LaD 8 is by far my most anticipated game atm
What really makes the debate frustrating for me is when the opposition treats the turn based system being outdated as if it were common knowledge.
Some people just won't give turn based games a try just because they are turn based and say action combat is inherently more interesting or engaging as if it can't quickly devolve into enemies just swarming you and pressing one button to swing your great sword and cleave them all.
Not only that, they treat turn battle as an inferior form of battle system, that was created by necessity because hardware at the time couldn't do what the developers wanted, but now that we have better technology we can abandon it without looking back.
Needless to say, that's bullshit! But that's the argument people use...
@@TwilightWolf032 Exactly it's blatantly false on all levels real time games existed before turn based, the original Zelda while primitive used real time combat, and was massively successful, it was an active choice to use turn based for the original Final Fantasy which released a year later because that is the combat system the devs chose not because of any technical limitations.
@@TwilightWolf032 oh, famous words of FF16 creators: "FF never meant to be TBC, we just had no hardware strong enough to make it how it was invisioned. This is intendet gameplay!" and "we can't make TBC in FF16 because it feel wrong in hyper-realism".
I just love both reasons... One say there was no inspiration from Ultima and Wizardry and another that magic, elemental gods and air combos with a sword are ok in hyper-realism but not TBC.
@@Louis_Cyphriel And that's why have no respect for modern FF titles.
One of the things I'd like to explore in an RPG is gaining more and removing additional turns in a single round. The potential to reward and/or punish players is there, and could encourage attentiveness to the combat.
EDIT: I meant "explore as a game dev making an RPG" and taking it to its limits. English is hard.
You should try Bravely Default!
@@SektionEi8htsame with octopath and SMT!
There are a LOT of games that do that, and the main issue is how to make action economy not meta all day everyday
isn't that just Shin Megami Tensei and the press turn system?
So many people have already pointed out, that this comment lives under the rock that I don't even need to name the three series, huh
Wild Arms 3 has probably the most elegant way to balance out both random encounters and grinding.
Prior to an encounter beginning, you see an exclamation mark pop over your head and can press a button to expend some of a limited (rechargeable) resource to cancel the encounter - harder encounters require more of the resource. As you progress through the game, you get items that raise your Migrant Level which allows you to cancel lower level encounters without expending any of the resource - signified by the exclamation mark being green instead of white.
In addition, because the game does not have a traditional MP system and instead uses the Force system for spellcasting, and HP recovers in between fights automatically (again on a resource system), fights are able to encourage the player to be smart and creative and have enemies that are more complicated than just damage sponges meant to drain your resources up to the boss.
Speaking of the bosses, if you know what you're doing in the game you can make it to the end of the game never needing to grind, because the game hands out items called Lucky Cards which double the EXP gained in that specific fight - Mystic one over your party on every boss fight and you should have no trouble being at a reasonable level for every battle. For postgame grinding up to the level cap, you can exploit one of the sidequests makes Creeping Chaos monsters appear on the overworld and their only move throws a crapton of debuffs at your party - since every time one of your character's unique abilities triggers in a fight (such as "Poison Ward") it slightly raises the EXP multiplier for that fight. By grinding against these enemies (which you can easily search for since they will not trigger your Green Exclamation Point - a BRILLIANT means of using the mechanic) you can get a really easy and convenient way to powerlevel before you go to take on the postgame final dungeon/superbosses.
Another thing that WA3 does that I love which also is done in Dragon Quest XI is the ability to freely change up your party loadout mid-fight. It's not as significant in Wild Arms 3 but does make the more puzzle-oriented gameplay more smooth to deal with. But in Dragon Quest XI it's so natural that by the endgame you don't even need to be told to swap around and stuff. You can just be like, "Oh, the boss is readying a big attack? I can switch in the tank this turn." or, "Okay, I killed most of the mobs using my boomerang, now to clean up the stronger ones using my knives."
Well what's this another falgaia drifter too? Great to mention that wild arms 3 party member order. The migrant level mechanic is great. Being able to avoid nearly any encounters. My only issue is that sometimes you want to properly level Virginia and the team.
Wild Arms 3 is my favorite of the WIld Arms games. Still occasionally listen to the anime intro song.
Disgaea mentioned, instantly based
Blue Dragon has a Turn Order mechanic as well. Although it's much simpler. In Blue Dragon some skills have a gauge in which you can charge, higher the charge the more the damage, however this will put your use of the skill further along the turn order. There's also a red segment of the Guage where if you stop the charge there, it lowers the mp cost. So will you go for max damage at the cost of it happening later, or do it sooner with lowered damage and mp cost?
The funny thing about Scott's JRPG video is he admitted in the BTS video that his takes were surface level and that he wanted to have a more lighthearted video about the genre since he gets asked about it often.
As of this comment he still tries RPGs on occasion. He currently managed to get into a Fire Emblem game with Engage and tried Xenoblade 3 for a few hours.
Like I said, I wasn't trying to cast shade on him, just using him as an example of a creator saying this stuff and creating discussion about it.
Yeah bullied into playing trash by saddo's on the internet so he don't get flooded with hate 'play this' 😂
Level scaling is a double edge sword. Sometimes it good to have an even chance but at times, it makes certain things harder to aquire. What should been an easy drop becomes a task.
The main thing it comes down to is what a person personally prefers. Everyone is going to enjoy different styles of gameplay.
The Press Turn System in SMT games is very cool: You have to know the elemental weak points of your enemies to get as many turns as possible. You should also know what the elemental weak points of your group are because otherwise your enemy can kill you quickly
Really quick, in favor of terastilization, the idea of the gym leaders using them to change their last pokemon to the same type as the rest of their party actually works well in a lot of ways. Like for Iono’s mismagius, it’s ability Levitate makes it immune to ground types, and by terastilizing into an electric type, it loses it’s only weakness, which forces the player to find a new tactic when they can’t just tap ‘super effective’ move to win. The rest of Scarlet and Violet follows this idea in similar ways, like Sudowoodo becoming a grass type to bait out a Fire type, only to hit it with a rock move.
I'm not saying that it can't work, but it's not really using it to it's full potential.
They actually thought it through, huh?
Not really, my Kofu example points this out.
Iono really is the exception here. Once you've seen the trick once like with Sudowoodo, the player will know not to switch their effective Pokémon.
Point still stands, and it falls back to Pokemon's continuous lack of desire to make the game's actually challenging for people who are adept at pokemon.
One game that does a similar thing with Turn based combat is Radiant Historia. The moves your character makes affects turn order, but you can also move your turn order so that all your team members act one right after the other, but it comes with risks because not only does it give the enemy a turn to attack, but also makes that character vulnerable. Furthermore, your actions can affect enemy placement on the grid. So while it can be a grind, a lot of battles can go quickly worh the right combo, and it’s a good way to practice combinations before bigger fights.
oh right thanks for reminding me that game exists....
27:08 not entirely true.
Chess is a game that is entirely turn based and has no story to speak of but is still just as popular now as 200 years ago.
To me, turn based combat allows 2 different benefits over real time.
You can focus more on the strategy (positioning, aoes, environment)
And you can go crazier with flashy attacks.
I don't understand how people think real time doesn't involve any of the things you just mentioned. Because right off the bat, fighting games automatically sink your opionon .
You have to manage everything you just mentioned but you have to do it on the spot. There's no time to sift through menus when you're in the thick of battle.
I honestly think people who say stuff like what you just said are just legitimately bad at action games and can't do anything beyond mash buttons it's the only way I can see someone seriously thinking your argument is in anyway valid.
In fact, real time is can be far more difficult than turn based. It certainly requires more skill. Where turn based, the only issue you have is how quickly you can move through a menu to select commands and items.
@NineToFiveGamerUC0079 I never mentioned difficulty.
Yes, an action game can go pretty damn flashy with attacks (warriors games for example) and can do strategic gameplay. But the more important that aspect is to the game play, the higher the skill floor is. This is because instead of being able to take your time planning action, you have to improvise or just "git gud" and know.
@NineToFiveGamerUC0079 also rereading my comment, it was mostly from a development perspective...
@@NineToFiveGamerUC0079"real time is far more difficult than turn based" answered your own question as to why strategy is considered a strength of turn based combat. It's much easier to strategize when you can take your time. Because of that, the game can enable itself to be more complex in ways that would be considered impossible in real time. Fighting games don't often require you to think about multiple debuffs at once, for example.
24:50 Ah talking about Atelier to a degree? Nice. There's a similar system in Atelier Iris 2 where everyone uses a gauge order instead of cards, but how it's done is more gratifying since there are two kinds of attacks. Charge ones for boosting your special attack gauge (Which is basically your MP system.) and Break ones (Which delay turn order. Can't use cheesingly due to the turn pushback being smaller every straight time per enemy). As long as one enemy is on the left side of the gauge, you can chain a combo that allows fast SP gain (For mastery of weapons mainly). That balance of when to do charge and break attacks is satisfying to pull off as a result
I'm surprised the Trails games haven't popped up anywhere in this talk because I'd argue they do a fair bit to shake up the usual Turn based stuff. Heck, it's just kinda fun seeing how the combat system evolved for several games. There's a good deal of using movement on the grid to get characters into position to land moves more optimally on opponents or taking into account the range of certain magic spells like buffs and barriers that need characters to be in a certain range for the group variants. Usually, Trails is known much more for the story and characters but their turn based gameplay is more or less Live A Live on steroids.
There's also a lot of player power in the admittedly silly amount of ways you can break the game to whatever your whim desires. I think the grind tends to be scaled enough to where you're generally just right for most boss fights so it doesn't really feel like too much grinding unless you want to play super optimal. After the Sky games, the other games added other ways to ease up the grind and reward you for good strategy or play in the way of multipliers. Did ya wipe out some big encounter in roughly 2-3 turns with no damage? Enjoy that fat ass stack. The way you interact with mobs on the field also changes per game with how you can smack the mobs for a starting advantage or down the line, fire a strong field attack that forces a max advantage even on the more elite mobs.
I've played all sorts of turn based at this point such as Persona, Live A Live, Golden Sun, Like A Dragon, and SMT 3 and I think out of all of them, Trails is my personal favorite. I'd say it's a neat twist without trying to ape what Paper Mario did by "just add QTES to stuff". That's probably the only thing I really have against Like A Dragon even though I find everything else to be pretty entertaining.
Trails is actual garbage i dont see why so many hype up this game
Generic writting fan fiction tier cringe story
Shin shaman xeed was right trails legend of legendary hero whatever its called is trash
Mana Khemia's system is pretty good. Legend of Heroe's Trails series does something like this, but expands on it further, where certain turns can get bonus's (guranteed crit, Hp, EP, Cp recovery, Random status effect, and sometimes even detriments like no damage, or ep/ cp loss) considering that this is completely random, but you have a lot of control over the turn order via Arts, AT Delay, or even S craft bursts to pop in at any turn It makes for engaging gameplay that's fresh every time you try it out. It also has a really nice exp curve so that you'll never get over-leveled and it makes you consider about changing up your quartz so that you have different spells or different stat boosters.
24:30 Another game with a turn order gameplay style is Fuga melodies of steel, here though there is a line where is situated that shows when their turn is and different actions determine how long it will take for their next turn but there is also a system that lets you sort of stumble the enemy and make it take longer for them to take a turn but the enemy can do the same. It also has a great story, artstyle and story to check out.
I fell in love with the games this summer. It's got a real satisfying combat loop and will punish you for not managing your time or crew effectively. Had a lot of close moments in the second half of the game. Unfortunately I still lose 2 kids by the end of my first run even when playing safe.
It makes me wanna find the other games but they're hard to find.
Shadowrun would be the equivalent of Baldur's Gate on a modern setting, if not quite as grandiose.
I regularly ask the DM about verticality in combat like ledges, furniture, trees, or whatever I can think of in the environment.
30 minutes seems too short for such a grand sweeping title as ALL turn based.
Hmm. Yeah, there's a lot missing. Golden Sun and dynamic changes to how a character plays. Library of Ruina and Predicting vs. Reacting in a turn based system. The massive hole that is positioning if you roped tactics games into this, and the even more massive crafting hell that made grinding even worse.
To be honest this was pretty shallow. Not the worst, there are dedicated "game design" channels that manage to be as deep as spilled milk, but the most important point was informing people that everyone fights about turn based vs real time a lot.
There was a brief time during Gen 6 when I was the 3rd Best Rotation Battle player in the world!
Wicked.
The press turn system from the Shin Megami Tensei series is so genius I'm surprised more games haven't copied it.
My hot take is the "strategy" boils down to abuse weaknesses or just abuse phys being unbalanced, two things which you'd already be doing if the press turn system didn't exist.
@@amimm7776 Only...
> Fiends and many bosses have no weaknesses, some switch weaknesses
> Weakness abuse won't finish most of battles in single turn, so any high critical attack or/and status ailments can kill someone who didn't care to be ready for those
> Nyarly pretty much proved that Nocturne is impossible without buffs/debuffs(I wouldn't call grinding into absurdity of 255 lvl as "possible")
> Phys only "broken" in Nocturne. There's many debates about best builds in IV, mostly about gun vs magic. And in V there's no saying, since you're not restricted by anything at all.
When it comes to the topic of Turn Based combat it depends.I love most Turn Based RPGS from old school stuff like Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest to some other games like Eternal Sonata and Xenoblade.
My favorite battle systems are obviously from the Mario RPG line up especially the original Mario RPG dating back to the Super Nintendo.Having timed hits is a pretty fun gameplay concept timing your attacks you greatly lower or increase damage.The Mario and Luigi games actually have you dodging attacks entirely by timing your jumps.
Now I dont always want a game where you have to time button presses sometimes I just want to relax and play some Digimon Cybersleuth and watch my numbers go up.I dont always need some type of timed hit in an RPG as long as it isnt too easy I will probably like it.
I also enjoy turn based strategy games also like the Shining Force and Fire Emblem games as well.I think people who dont like Turn Based games just haven't found the right game yet.
If you like Mana Khemia, you should check out the rest of the Atelier series (Mana Khemia, despite its title, is an Atelier game). Most of them have the turn-order system you like, and the combat is supplemented by a VERY complex and robust crafting system: you can spend as much time in the crafting menus as in combat or dungeons. This is what makes it so fun: instead of grinding to get stronger, you craft stronger items and equipment to buff your stats. Making a new item can be a very involved process, but the difference in power after you equip it is tangible and extremely satisfying: you feel like you earned that OP weapon by making it yourself rather than having it offered to you in a treasure chest.
I love turn based systems, particularly ones where your enemy can take advantage of the mechanics offered. Such as this one is in the area colored like the area you're in but not actually the area you're in(just an arena). A 3D battle where you can block frontal attacks, but have increased criticals from behind on top of unblockable. Does take it easy letting you have free rein on this specific mechanic for quite awhile. First strong boss where my stongest one is away from the party, as well as my tank. Making due with my glass canon, bringing in back my healer and a hybrid offense, after caught up on levels. But boss casually gets behind my healer, pulls out a blunderbuss and one shots her. Throughout if you leave a gap or can't punish a careless dive like that, the boss would go behind the biggest threat/obstacle and take advantage of that critical. The only shame in this case is that so few enemies actually care about positions unless its a gimmick based on the battle area.
I do want more and more games to bring in the current area like BG3 does for combat, gets me much more invested prior to encounters/fights. Whether its burning a ladder or choosing how to initiate the battle, plenty of options make plenty of fun.
I didn’t realize turn-based combat caused such rifts in relationships, haha!
i particularly like turn based combat because it's a lot more forgiving to people who simply don't have the hands for it. while fast-paced, snappy combat feels great to play to those with experience, a lot of gamers forget that not everyone simply _knows_ how to use a controller or a mouse/keyboard setup. new players will find fighting games or rhythm games MUCH more intimidating than turn-based combat games because they (fighting/rhythm games) require a level of physical mastery that can be more difficult than the mental mastery of turn-based games. while i've got some level of mastery of all three genres, my hands and reflexes also have a few issues that can flare up, and i can engage in turn-based gameplay at my mental peak regardless.
A turn based rpg can be done right. the kind hat most people complain about involve rpgs where you can out level enemies and the rest of the game devolves into turning on auto or mashing attack, but a proper rpg can do so much more without making it feel like it overcompensated too much and end up too hard. just as a few examples,
Persona has the weakness system which allows you to fell all enemies and end each fight in a stylish all-out attack.
Mana Khemia has a swap in system which makes fights more like a combo trigger then just simple turn based combat, and the game actually scales up properly when you get to the point in the game where you can do it, so it becomes expected that you learn it.
Crystal Project which has exploration more like a metroidvania, where if you can jump somewhere then it was likely intended but if you cant then you might have to come back later when you are capable of jumping higher or farther, the battles are standard turn based but the level cap is 60 and optional bosses become stronger and stronger while you have to find the method to beat them at the same level (you can also see their attacks in advance so nothing is a surprise once you start the fight).
And ofc games that have more player input without it feeling like too much, time attacks from Super Mario RPG or Sea of Stars, combo systems in battle like legend of dragoon or Neptunia (of all things), or games that just break the mold like Labyrinth of Refrain where you can have up to 5 teams of 3 units for a total of 15 units in battle.... which incidentally doesn't make the game that much easier 😂.
Needless to say, i love them and i love discovering new ones.
The SMT framchise has the best turn based combat system imo
Atlus nailed it with the press turn system
When you mentioned environments having an impact on combat and focused mostly on Baldur’s Gate 3 you could add that terrain has effects in some games such as Fire Emblem too, affecting hit rates (unless you’re a magic user) and in Triangle Strategy (one example) height increases range of attack with arrows
Pokémon started experimenting with turn order in Legends Arceus, and I hope they keep it up with this style.
I never understand the stigma against turn based RPGs but regardless I've always liked them even after getting introduced to real time,strategy or even action rpgs
Also at 1:12 there's The World Ends With You!
Bravely Default’s combat system is my personal favorite. The risk reward system of using or storing turns is so cool. It makes menial enemies less of a drag because you can obliterate them with ease and for tougher enemies the stored turns system can lead to some breathtaking strategies.
The thoughts of “I could just barely finish this guy off if I go in the red, but is it worth the punishment of if I’ve underestimated him?” just make the game so much more intense.
One RPG series that respects the player's time when it comes to leveling and encounters is the legend of heroes Trails series.
Beginning in Trails from Zero you can attack enemies on the field to stun them, but if you are overleveled, then they would be killed and you would receive a fraction of the currency you normally would when you fight. You wouldn't get other items like ingredients, so backtracking to attack enemies effectively becomes a choice. Those side quests often include monster extermination, so it's up to you if you want to fight the lower level enemies to acquire the craft points needed for your special attacks so you're prepared for the quest monster. And due to some characters having different weapons you are incentivized to put certain characters in your parties simply because they are better at eliminating on field monsters
Sounds more like "we didn't bother to balance out encounters and make sure that engaging in all of them will be enjoyable/satisfying, so let's just give it to the players. After all, who cares about appropriate gradual leveling" then respecting anything.
As a dude that plays competitive pokemon,the reason why rotation battles where taking about it is because nobody play them...like...almost nobody,and the idea of using 1 mecanic for 1 gen is because mega evolutions broke the game SOOOOO much they need it to go,but the idea of bringing mecanics to the game every time makes that gen meta diferent from the last gen...for example in gen 8 for a long time Mylotic became the best pokemom to the point where if you did not preper for her you lost,and Mylotic stop bieng good in gen 3 the gen it came to the game
the ideal gym leader team should have some way of countering its common weaknesses. im currently making a rom hack of platinum and ive given roark a nosepass over his geodude. nosepass is not 4x weak to either type geodude is, and i gave it shock wave to help it deal with water types. then he still has onix and cranidos and onix has rock tomb and bulldoze (added in) to lower your speed so that cranidos has an easier time hitting you. you can still win fairly easily, especially since there are more options in the early game (as well as having buffed some of said options). it isn't meant to be overwhelming, and turtwig still cleanly sweeps, but it's still more difficult than you would have had to deal with before where all of his mons instantly die to any of the starters.
On the tabletop front, you do have Starfinder and some sci fi based dnd settings (Spelljammer, Star Wars 5e) if you want the mechanics but not the sword and sorcery.
Imo, you should _always_ be able to outscale all single-player content if you want to, with enough effort. There can be an extra difficulty selection that can _add_ scaling and/or level caps, but it should never be required/forced upon you. The ultimate accessibility compromise.
Additionally, I am hoping to make a little RPG series with engaging qte attacks/defenses in the vein of Sea of Stars or Mario&Luigi.
I can agree with this. Sometimes I just wanna hunt down trash mobs for 7 years straight and still have the boss be able to function if I end up over leveled.
I played the new game Sea of Stars and I love it so far.
Reminded me of Golfen Sun. It's turn based combat has these sorta Mario and Luigi style mini games for increased you can also time defense blocks against attacks.
Not to mention weakness and stance advantages. Always engaging. Wish pokemon was remotely updated like this.
I feel like turn based combat will never be outdated, until we can have an action system that actually has strategy over skill. RPG mechanics tend to weaken action games, and it’s really hard to capture what makes turn based RPGs special in action RPGs unless it’s Dark Souls. But that is a very simple combat system with only a few types of attacks which simulates turn based combat to an extent while also making stats matter.
And this is why I get bored a few hours in borderlands
dragon's dogma pretty much has it figured out
Darksiders 2 also did a pretty good job of incorporating RPG mechanics into an action game. Though Lifesteal on a weapon is broken as hell.^^
We have had action games with "strategy over skill" since 2009/2011
They're called Demon's Souls and Dark Souls 1
The bosses in those games far more emphasize out lf the box thinking or using the evironment to your advantage(aside from the AotA DLC), with many of the bosses having built in "cheese" or quirks to their arenas that make the fight a lot easier
@@xolotltolox7626 first time I hear DS being about strategy and not skill even among soulsborne fandom...
6 and 7 were definitely the best ff as they don't encourage leveling up but instead share the Magic.
Really? Whoops 😂
My Terra casually always double casting Ultima for 1 mp: 👀
😂
My Terra casually always double casting Ultima for 1 mp: 👀
😂
Best ff game is the 4 remake on the ds. There is an argument that 13 has the best battle system as you end up making more meaningful decisions, only issue is everything else about 13 is awful except maybe the soundtrack.
I enjoyed how smooth 10 2,did it though
Props for including Mana Khemia. Too many people have slept on that game and just how awesome it is. MECHSWORDS FTW!!
My biggest issue with most turn based combat systems is that the focus on numbers. My reaction to tough fights shouldn't be to open Excel and grind, but it often is, because it's WAY easier and more efficient than trying to find a strategy, especially knowing that my strategy might not even exist, or rely on RNG.
Well yeah. The entire reason that stats exist at all is so that the character's abilities are separate from the player's. Action games test the player's reflexes, turn-based games test their preparation. The strategies are mostly how you build your team to have access to different tools. If a turn-based RPG has weak character building or badly balanced tools (i.e. when the buffs / debuffs / status effects aren't worth using) then it can definitely suck. I agree that a lot of story-heavy RPGs can have lackluster combat. I think dungeon crawler RPGs tend to do better, so maybe try some games like Etrian Odyssey or Shin Megami Tensei.
That's why i kind of like trails series, sure you can grind, but the exp curve is designed in a way that you are better off just strategizing with different characters and quartz instead of getting one more level
Open excel and grind? As an avid RPG player, I open excel so I don't have to grind.
Ff 5 is a good example of finding any strategy to work if you know enough about the game. It's fantastic.
18:03
Whilst they don't have the same level of mid-combat environmental interaction (aka: no shoving people into pits or leaping massive distances), I do know that the original isometric Fallout games handle a lot of things similarly to Baldur's Gate (which makes sense, they were inspired by ttrpg's of their time). Furthermore, whilst I haven't played them (yet), I'm fairly certain the Wasteland series has stuck with the isometric turn based RPG style.
Pokemon has some interaction with the battlefield with entry hazards, like spikes, that damage pokemons that enter into the battlefield, or terrains that affect pokemon touching the ground, for example Electric terrain protects pokemon from falling asleep (opponents included). Also during X/Y certain parts of the battlefield, like piles of snow, could appear in the background of the battlefield and if an attack destroyed them (no idea how) they could hold an item
Funny thing
as a kid I didn't know English and played pokemon Ruby
So I got stuck in the first town where I had to fight May to proceed
Since I didn't know, my brain thought maybe I had to evolve my Treeko
So I got my Treeko to final evolution in the first town of the game and discovered that I just had to fight May
Me, playing Baldur's Gate 3, watching this while waiting for my turn: Interesting
Raihan is the best gym leader because he DOESN'T have a monotype team. Monotype teams as bosses are the worst and easiest thing to fix Pokemon has. I was shocked when I saw a gym leader being a double battle that actually used some sort of strategy. Just to have all that removed in the rematch. Even something as silly has a "only round pokemon gym" would make things more interesting than what we had for decades.
not michael drinking barbecue sauce at the end 😭
For scaling I strongly prefer the Skies of Arcadia way of doing it. Basically it only applies to the many optional bosses instead of all enemies.
For the turn order point; Nostalgia, the Xenosaga trilogy and even Megaman X Command Mission come to mind as good examples. (also Persona baton passing type mechanic) On the there had, I've never been a fan of ATB mechanics.
For encounters I do generally prefer non-random because it is better for both avoiding and seeking out encounters. Then it can be brought to another level of engagement by properly implemented ambush/surprise mechanic, encounter linking, encounter chains etc.
Also, in regards to grinding and rare item hunting, I always appreciate when an RPG gives more exp and better drop rates for taking advantage of other mechanics. (including ones mentioned in this comment)
All of this also applies to action JRPGs that still use an encounter based system. (Tales, Star Ocean, Rouge Galaxy etc.) Of course these aren't hard requirement for a game to be good. Heck, Suikoden V is still my #1 JRPG despite having almost none of the things I mentioned.
18:38 the ability was reworked in the newer games but in the original ruby and sapphire you'd just use a group of pick up artists to collect rare candies for you.
Theres this H game called Black Souls 2 and it has one of the BEST rpg mechanics but the thing is it has very few twists and doesnt have any mechanics where you have to perform a mechanical action for extra damage.
Despite this you can DEFEAT AND CLEAR the WHOLE game at lv1 on the HIGHEST difficulty just with strategy.
This include dlc 3 which rekts players even with all the stats capped and yet just by using the right strategy you can defeat them (albiet very slowly).
I think if more rpgs made you able to defeat enemies at lv1 while still giving a challenge than it would be perfect.
But to be fair black souls 2 is too kino to be replicated.
I must’ve played Golden Sun 2 at least a half dozen times, the most novel aspect was its dynamic 2D ‘camera,’ which I’ve never really seen before or again since
for the second point I think you could do the Chrono way. both chrono games have the enemies on the overworld, and generally speaking you're forced to have some battles and those battles leave you always on the right lvl for the current encounter.
So if you need more of something for some reason(money, exp, etc) you can grind. but the pace is made in a way that is not needed. (there's a stat subsystem for chrono cross but youll never need it)
CRPGs as a genre in general do what you enjoyed in BG3. If you are looking for something not traditional high fantasy, the original Fallout games were turn based and there is Rogue Trader coming out pretty soon
Not entirely. It doesn't have screen transitions for combat and happens within the world. There are probably points in which it effects the combat (being around a corner to break line of sight or door ways for funnels), but nothing like shoving or throwing.
I don't like direct scaling in rpgs. Gotta backtrack? Too bad, all those enemies you just slogged through are always going to be as strong as you. It doesn't take away the problem of needing to grind, it just takes away the benefits of choosing to do so. I like to grind to a degree, it can be quite relaxing and a good way to prepare for a challenge ahead if you feel like you're falling behind. The problem there is when you are forced to grind. Unfun grinding and direct scaling can be removed entirely from a game with turn based combat if you have this little thing no one likes to talk about called "care" put into its progression. Screw it up, you're game's less fun. Get it right, you'll never have to deal with those issues.
There will be the time when people will finally get, that there's usually no need to grind, unless you want something specific or feel insecure about your ability to win with levels you have. And actually, the second problem of being underleveled is actually much bigger in games with manual encounters everyone loves so much instead of random. Why? Because there, developer have no way to properly guide players level to the upcoming boss.
Turn based game? Let me introduce you to the beauty of Library of Ruina. Currently the only one unique "turn based" game where the enemy won't just sit still receiving your attacks. The enemy and your character will clash each other and create an amazing scene to see. Also this is improved in its sequel game Limbus Company, which now all 6 vs 6 characters will clash at once in a single turn. If you're into turn based games, I'm very recommending trying out Library of Ruina (pc/switch) to start with
I love how masochistic pokemon grind subject has fire emblem music in the background as I play Three Houses on maddening intentionally looking for training battles with 3 priests - since they have very limited spells and get to heal 20% hp per turn vaiting them to forests or thickets and swinging at them with brojen weapons until turn 95 (turn 99 is game over) to then kill them - I got 2 A ranks per characters in chapter 6 with no ng+ save.
Bravely Second had one of the best leveling up systems for turn based that I'm shocked it was never copied or implemented elsewhere.
If you win a battle at a single turn, you have the option to do another battle for more exp & money, and you can continue until you choose to stop or the 1-hit sweep ends.
It easily makes grinding faster & fun, especially since B2ND has multiple ways to do 1-turn sweeps with the right setups.
Also, encounter rate toggles should be a thing. Give the player the option to turn it up for grinding or putting it down to zero because area is full of mooks. Again, I' shocked this is never implemented in more games.
And I say this coz my main issue with most games is how grindy it can be. Like, it feels unnecessarily long just to achieve something. Be it trying to craft a weapon because the drop rates are absurdly low or just reach that level needed to unlock a move.
I’m making a turn based RPG with a sci-fi based story. It has elementals which were specifically ordered by the government to be experimented on to learn their inner workings. The actual turn based aspect of the game is very similar to that of Deltarune, but without the skilled based dodging. Instead dodging in my game is just a button, which allows you to dodge any incoming attacks and will get you more energy if you were attacked while dodging. Other than that encounters are pretty easy, only taking 2-3 hits to kill an enemy and grinding is merely an option as with enough skill (or the right equipment) you could theoretically kill off all of the bosses. There is a bunch of customization you can do outside the battle in the blacksmith’s shop which can get you a bunch of different effects on your gear to make them better. There’s also different weapon types which have different QTEs and behaviors. Default weapons are consistent, projectiles have a random number added on, and spears can get you an accuracy score of 9.5, essentially multiplying your attack by 1.5. There’s also also a bunch of effects based on elements that can be combined up to 4 elements. Anything can be combined with anything.
Sorry for the long comment but there’s just a lot of work that went into making this and I might’ve gotten carried away, but I think the game is fun to play since half the time it distracts me from actually working on/fixing it.
About Pokemon. Despite me totally agreeing with what said in this part there's also one problem that is totally on the players - overleveling. Catching everything on their way, abusing raids and so on. If you plan your team beforehand and only fight trainers on the way, you come to Nessa at least 5 levels lower.
Same thing with grind with many games overall. Like Octopath. You don't need to grind like so many people cry. You only need to rotate your party and all the "mandatory" battles between towns and additional dungeons that can be found will level you up properly. Or in SMT 4 - don't grind, do sidequests!
Honestly, P5 overdone it's handholding of player's leveling. And now Octopath 2 is stupidly casual allowing to beat up bosses easily being 10 levels below... if you manage to be underleveled somehow. While SMTV broke leveling with only overworld enemies in open-world.
Why something like proper Pokemon, Digimon Story and Octopath without some stupid QTEs or unnecessary mess of types became too much to ask?! =__=
U say that and still people cry why p5 so grindy
@@TheNrat eh, mementos do constantly feel like grind
For those looking at a future SciFi turn based RPG, Warhammer 40K Rogue Trader is in beta now. It's developed by OwlCat games who previously did Sword and Sorcery CRPGs using the Pathfinder System (which is heavily influenced by DND), so it might scratch the right itch.
Before Baldur's Gate 3 was released there was a really good CRPG called Solasta: Crown of the Magister. It was heavily based on the DnD 5e ruleset and had a pretty large focus on verticality. I remember taking advantage of the environment by shoving enemies off cliffs ort shooting suspended objects to drop on enemies like the time I ambushed a trio of ghouls with my party being perched on a walkway and I had my Wizard cast a fireball, and wound up killing 2 of the ghouls instantly with the fireball alone because I also aimed the fireball to where it'd hit a chandelier hanging on the ceiling and cause it to fall and that was what killed the last ghoul.
Also it's fun when the party starts getting items/spells that let them wall climb or fly and use it to quickly get to enemies trying to snipe from vantage points only for a Paladin or a Druid who wild shaped into a bear and his eagle spirit companion start flying in order to start bum rushing them
Only problem I have is that without the DLCs you only get 7 classes and 5 races for characters (though 3 of them have 2 subraces to pick from) It is kinda understandable since the Devs are much smaller than Larian studios.
Biggest problem with Octopath's scaling is that the bosses scale unequally. For some it makes no difference except marginally increased stats. Others actually get much harder especially if it's exactly the fourth boss you fight (since the "scaling" only applies to the chapter 1 bosses up to 4 party members). Not a good example of scaling done well in turn-based games in my opinion.
You do know that the game "scales" only until you have the full party of 4, right?
And I'm genuinely wondering, what boss do you think got actually hard after scaling? Because I can only think of one boss being much harder solo than in a team.
@@Louis_Cyphriel Yeah, and it's only for the chapter 1 bosses, so claiming that Octopath has "scaling" is a stretch, I agree. I only referred it that way since Mangakamen did in his video and I was responding to that.
And what you said doesn't contradict my main point: the "scaling" is very uneven and poorly though out.
@@edcaoushow can it be uneven or poorly thought out if it literally scales only taking into account number of party members? And again, I asked for the example of your claim, that it makes any bosses significantly harder and/or smarter.
About Pokemon:
Kamen, I can't believe you just gave the problem AND the solution, Pokemon offline difficulty IS for kids, litteraly, and I'm glad for it because I want Pokemon to be appreciated by the youngest generations as I could appreciate it back in the day when I was the youngest gen.
Plus you already stated yourself what the solution is for experienced players that are looking for a challenge, you will have to go through easy mode anyway by beating the League after 10 hours or so but then go grind for the Master Ball rank and I can assure those 10 hours injected in "easy mode that lets everyone have a go at it" will feel so small in comparison to the time you really injected in Pokemon when you were fighting, not the NPC's that need to be jokes, but the real deal: other players that just like you are here to go all out with their strategie and claim victory for the current battle, and ho boy do we all do that once we reach the Hyper Ball and above ranks
You could make an argument that there's no intermediate/medium difficulty in the latest Pokemon games but not much else difficulty-wise IF you're not looking for hard mode OFFLINE ONLY, I mean I don't get it, as long as I get to beat another trainer that really stood in my way for me to claim victory I'd rather beat this trainer that's a real person than some coded-in strategy-already-included-in-the-game but that's on me
"Kamen, I can't believe you just gave the problem AND the solution,"
That's kind of the point - You point out the problem and give a solution.
"Pokemon offline difficulty IS for kids, litteraly, and I'm glad for it because I want Pokemon to be appreciated by the youngest generations as I could appreciate it back in the day when I was the youngest gen."
I'm not. I would prefer there being a difficulty mode for the games to be given, something that was actually a feature at one point - And would be a good thing.
"other players that just like you are here to go all out with their strategie and claim victory for the current battle, and ho boy do we all do that once we reach the Hyper Ball and above ranks"
Cept that ignores all of the other elements of that - Such as actually having a proper team to go online - Since the games don't really prepare you for that, and frankly to get a good time, it takes hours to get one.
In one of my previous jobs, where I'd be there for long hours with either nothing to do, or regularly interrupted, I liked using turn based combat games to pass the time. It gave me little to no consequence when I either had to regularly stop combat to help a customer, or if I misclicked due to touch screen controls. But a lot of the time I tried playing TBC games at home, especially grinding character levels, I'd consider going to see the doctor to get diagnosed with narcolepsy with how easy it put me to sleep.
One item I really like from Darkest Dungeon 2 is the Temptation, in darkest dungeon you have the death's door mechanic, where you character has a chance of surviving an attack that would kill then.
Temptation removes your character's deaths door but it also provides a 50% chance of getting an extra turn every round, which is really powerful specially with characters that can buff themselves in order to do massive damage
It is debatable to what extend ATB is turn based. It’S like a spectrum lol
Deathbulge Battle of the Bands was an interesting idea for a ATB battle system. The ATB gauge is shared between all characters and needs to be constantly monitored. Each of the different characters can modify how it charges, but also must take the damage if the enemies ATB gauge charges first. Also your buffs and debuffs are applied to the ATB gauge and not the characters. So you have to balance switching mid charge to the tank to take a hit while swapping in the fast character to make sure the gauge charges faster.
I also like this in-between you can find in games like Grandia or Child of Light with the action bar. Basically the bar consists of a "Wait" (2/3) and "Prepare" (1/3) section. Every character moves from left to right on that bar and once they reach the end of "Wait" it is their turn and the character chooses an action. Considering how fast the action is (with stronger being slower) they move accordingly on the "Prepare" section and the action will be executed once they reached the end of the bar. However, if a character gets attacked while preparing an action, the action will be interrupted completely and the character starts from the beginning of his "Wait" phase again. Sadly this system is rarely utilized....
Another point to the grind of RPGs, Paper Mario has the Star Point system where 100 points equals a level up ALWAYS, you can grind levels but if you’re too strong (say a Level 12 Mario fighting a Level 1 Goomba) enemies just won’t give you Star Points meaning that as long as you stick to the main story you won’t be too underleveled.
I’ve been playing the Chrono series and a bit of Persona 5. I don’t think it’s the combat that’s the problem. Rather it’s how the game makes you engage the combat and how it’s balanced. If you remove random encounters and gave the player the choice to engage with the combat by physically touching the enemy like the previously mentioned games, that could greatly reduce the tedium of it. Then you have to make it more snappy and not built around repeatedly fighting. Chrono Trigger gave you the option to grind, but made it more fun to experiment with different party load outs and figure which characters had the best synergy. So as long as you had that figured out, you can avoid as many of the normal encounters as you want. Combine that with a good elemental weakness system (and no overly elaborate animations) and you might have a near perfect turn based combat system.
Baldurs Gate 3 showed that turn-based combat its alive and well! There's many creative ways to make them so unique and dynamic 🎉
As much as BG3 is a great game... turn-based combat was quite alive and well enought without it. Like, you know, in past few years we had Persona 5, SMTV, Dragon Quest, Octopath, big indies like Sea of Stars or Chained Echoes and Cassette Beasts
Tell me you are a normie fake gamer without telling it
Bg3 didnt revive turn base game tf
I don’t mind turned based combat as a whole, but the JRPG kind of combat I’ve never cared for because it always felt spammy from what I remember, although I haven’t tried it for years so I may change my mind. I tend to prefer combat like Xcom (which I believe is called turn based tactics) because while there’s definitely an RNG factor, but it feels like your decisions matter more since I felt like I couldn’t just spam the same strategy every time. Another example is FTL:Faster Than Light. Speaking of that game, while it’s not on the level of BG3s environment in battles (which reminds me how much I need to play this game), FTL has various battlefields that add different effects (like solar flares causing fires, or nebulas disabling your sensors).
If I be so daring to recommend anything that won't fell "spammy" with a little challange that still more or less teach the player, I would suggest SMT IV. Sure, there's P5 too but I'm not so sure about it's difficulty and spamliness for such question.
24:21 Monster Hunter Stories has a similar system where, after each turn, a QTE might occur which forces the player to pay attention to what is going on, as at any moment, your monster and the enemy will run at each other full force and you have to mash a to win.
Head-to-Heads don't have a chance to happen after each turn, they happen at specific health %s for large monsters.
@@ThatPHGuy I know, it’s just the simplest way of saying it.
It's amazing how many people were hesitant about but then converted by BG3 over it's turn based combat.
"Instead of gravity Circuit an Gunvolt-"
THEY'RE PLATFORMERS! Stay on subject!
In terms of my favorite combat for creature taming RPG games, my favorite one would have to be Temtem.
Although I think Pokémon combat wasn't bad, I wouldn't say they could have had the best combat when done well cause Temtem changed things that made the combat better rather than same combat with better handling. So although I had alot of fun in older Pokémon games, I will say there were ways they could had improved though.
Such as replacing BP with Stamina, Stamina is shared between all your moves, making it harder to spam your strongest skills, even more so since you need to wait a few turns before using your strongest skill too, Stamina although depletes faster and it also resets per battle so you don't have to constantly heal unless you have low HP. And because of that, each fights is just that much harder, even more so since there's nothing that makes you stronger mid-fight like mega-evolution in the newer Pokémon game and harder to instant kill the creature so you may have to heal often but because of your low HP which I prefer. It also highlights the creature in green or red to tell you if they are weak or strong against that type skills, making it easier for people who didn't memorized all Pokémon if it's hard to tell at a glance. It's 2v2 by default rather than Pokémon 1v1 (Creature wise, not player, so 1 player uses 2 creature all at once), but Temtem has better teamwork mechanic too. Temtem don't forget any moves either, only use 4 moves just like Pokémon, but you just switch since you didn't forgot, simple as that, no item involved. Lol XD
I will say that the Shadowrun RPGs are pretty good if you're still looking for good suggestions for Turn based games where the environment matters a bit. it's nowhere near as in-depth as BG3 still of course, and it is technically still fantasy, but it's Cyberpunk Fantasy with a very different take on fantasy elements. And since things like guns are commonplace, then any objects in the environment to act as cover can change the nature of a fight. There's also a lot of fights across the games that add specific elements to them like needing to reach a certain point or grab something and evac, or things like that where the goal of the fight isn't just killing everyone else. Also there's class based elements where things like Summoners can get free summons depending on their environment and Drone users can send their drones in places that normal characters can't fit through.
27:10 this gag legit made me burst out laughing almost to the point of tears and snort a few times! 😂 Well done Mangakamen!
as soon as you have to manage a party -> turn based is the better system or at least Pause system!
if you control a single character and your party is basically non existend / is removed from any larger battle (like Kingdom Hearts)... yeah i'm fine with action.
Just gonna say that Library of Ruina is a turn based Korean game with in depth combat and a great story. Only downsides are that it’s only dubbed in Korean (really good voice acting though), has a lot of dark themes (so read warnings if you care), and has terrible tutorials. Other than that it’s a fun and challenging turn based game.
Recently got into LoR and i agree with you. Despite it's rather lacking in tutorial, i found the game to be very fun and challenging AND it get better and more harder the more you progress throughout the game.
I wouldn't say having only Korean Dub is a downside, it's better than having no voice at all... you know, like Pokemon...
Caligula Effect 1 and 2 has a unique mechanic for turn based RPGs. Instead of there being a turn order, each character and enemy has moves that take up a certain amount of time. Everyone moves simultaneously, but each move takes up a different amount of time. For example, stronger more powerful attacks might take 3 seconds while weaker attacks might take 1 second, giving the option to use more attacks in less time or use more time to take a more powerful action. You can choose when exactly the characters start and end their actions, and preview what will happen before you actually take your actions, allowing you to perfectly time your attacks to dodge or counter your enemies. I liked the mechanic a lot - it led to a lot of strategy in the turn-based combat and every encounter felt fresh. I would definitely recommend it if you’re looking for an rpg with a unique battle system. The story is very similar to stuff like Persona, and I particularly like the characters is Caligula Effect 2.
I don't know about second but first was heavily criticized for this combat being extremely sluggish and boring and I can agree. As much as it sounds interesting and fun, timing your attacks to timeline takes stupidly long and novelty fades fast.
Someone already probably said this, but a sci-fi turn based rpg that's coming up that i'd recommend is Owlcat's "warhammer 40k rogue trader". It releases on the 7th of december if anyone is intrested.
16:00 I point to Chained echoes where a lot of time there are interactibles durino battles expecially bosses
0:53
OMG the wizard of oz beyond the yellow brick road mentioned!!
Love that game, it's so charming
I haven't played it but my friends have mentioned something called Warhammer Rogue Trader which seems to take a similar approach as BG3. They're also just trying to get me into Warhammer stuff in general.
It's a crime to not mention Your Only Move Is Hustle or Library of Ruina
13:44 If only we all had that option...
Chrono trigger had some of the best tbc I’ve ever seen for 5 reasons. (Spoiler alert)
1. It let’s you choose at the beginning if you wanted the standard turn based (your turn, enemy turn your turn etc.) or real time which all turns are based on if you’re fast enough to act before the enemies, if you were truly fast enough you could chain several attacks together. Always played with real time though.
2. There were so many unique interactions that made you think whether or not you should use a certain move.
3. Chrono dies at one point if you get to that point, meaning you now have to rethink your strategy as your source of life is now gone.
4. Dual and triple techs. These made the party customization so much different and allowed for different strategies and made you question whether or not to include certain party members meaning you could end fights in one turn.
5. Once you get a feel for what to do, you carry that for all future gameplays, meaning you can set up attacks and you gain access to knowledge like dinosaurs get stunned by lightning, your reflexes are much quicker and you can even beat the final boss earlier in the game since you know what to do (ng+ recommened)
2:11 did you repeat yourself?