I built 415’s for 16 years. The aileron bell-cranks are located in the rear spar, midspan of the ailerons. This puts them a few feet inboard of the float attach points. The clearances between the bellcrank and the spar structure are rather close. If the impact twisted the rear spar enough, it’s possible the bellcrank became jammed. The 415 does have a rudder aileron interconnect system in which the rudder system provides some control input the aileron system. However, the aileron system does not provide input to rudder system. The 215 likely has a similar system.
Are the wing floats designed to sheer off? What type of load would be required to sheer of if it hits the water on a bad scoop attempt? Would it cause damage in that case to the ailerons?
These pilots were on duty for almost ten hours when this incident occurred, it was also their last scheduled drop for the day. Fatigue is also a prime factor in this accident. It will be interesting to see if investigators have the knowledge to determine if the engine on the affected side was damaged in this strike.
Good point. Not a pilot, but looking at the video the decent down to the fire just seemed too steep for the terrain. Fatigue and a bit of a rush to finish the day may have made the pilot take a slight risk in delivering the last payload?
I think this people there are all over-worked, they do not have enough breaks to rest and regenerate their mind. I do errors too if I am working to long on a row, but I can delete the file and can start new or fix the error at the next day. This people in their planes could possibly use drones in the future to make all the dangerous work.
As a volunteer firefighter in Australia can I add my condolences and take a moment to remember the 3 US airmen who died fighting fires in Australia on Jan 23rd 2020 during our 'Black Summer'. They were Captain Ian McBeth, first officer Paul Clyde Hudson, and flight engineer Rick DeMorgan Jr. Their sacrifice has not been forgotten here.
i just watched a full documentary the other night about the Australian 'Black Summer' i cried so many times, such a dreadful mess and so many people perished, way too many, and many of them so young - i can't help but say it shouldn't happen its hard to imagine in this day and age with all our tech that not enough information was getting updated for people to see - i wish there was something i could do to help prevent these things going on, maybe one day
@@patchmack4469 Australia is one of the least populated land masses in the world. And yet the fires caused loss of life? Aren't Australians just sort of perched in a strip by the sea?
Look at that yaw to the right Juan. The spray off the belly really shows the angle of yaw. And you can actually see a bit of right rudder as well. I think that you’re right that the controls are jammed.
Consider the wind moving the smoke uphill, right to left. The right wing drops into the turn, the wind cuts the AoA, and then the impact throws the entire airframe into a spin. Not enough speed, not enough altitude, not enough reaction time to recover? Respectfully, your thoughts?
I’m sure the crew’s instincts were to try and get those wings back to level. I don’t know how, but it seems that the controls were indeed jammed and no time or altitude to try to overcome. Yea, very sad.
But what would have jammed the rudder? At least one of them needed to stomp the rudder hard left. Don't know what kind of training they go through over there, but too many people flying here in the US are extremely unfamiliar with proper rudder work. I see this frequently teaching tailwheel.
I live in Greece and this accident put a nation into mourning. We have been experiencing devastating wildfires for almost a month. More than 600 fires in the last 10 days. Almost 100 firefighting aircraft in constant operation from dawn to dusk. I can really understand the over zealous approach this crew took, unfortunately mistakes like that aren't forgiving.
As an Ex Airman in the Greek military airforce 1986(used to re fuel them), my heart bleeds looking at this accident. Routinely the CL215 is used in extremely low altitudes, mistakes happen and lives are lost, it’s one thing being on the ground and commenting and a very different situation flying for hours on end, knowing that what you do is saving lives and in the process your life is in danger. 🇬🇷🇦🇺❤️
There is absolutely no need to fly at such a low altitude to drop water on any fire. And as said in this video it was a cowboy approach and a poor technique to achieve his work.
I've seen too many clips of tanker pilots seemingly "Hotdogging", flying too low, banking too hard and taking wild chances. It catches up to you eventually. "There are old pilots and bold pilots, but not many old bold pilots"
RIP - This one hit really close to home because I was stationed at that air base with the firefighting aircraft during the 2007 Greek forest fires, when we lost two more pilots. Greece's terrain is very vertically challenging and forests are so close to inhabited areas that pilots regularly dive down to 30-40 feet to make the drops effective, fearing loss of life if the fire is uncontrolled.
modern cars today give a false sense of security, sitting at 140mph feels like 70 in an older car, untill a tyre blows out and your in the central reservation, hindsight is a funny thing
Yet here in Greece whenever there is such cowboy attitude in the Armed Forces (CL-215s belong to the Air Force) that leads to damage or total loss of precious equipment the people responsible are not removed from flying duty, rarely reprimanded, but instead moved to other flight wings, or just keep flying in the same wing. Because if they live through the event the blame NEVER goes to the pilots since the officers conducting the investigation never put the blame on their own. If they get killed , like those guys, they are posthumously promoted and given a hero's funerals. In the meantime, they have destroyed a rare and expensive plane that is precious and was paid with hard earned taxpayer money.
It does appear that he wss trying to completely extinguish the fire in one drop. A better plan would be to make drops on the up-hill side and the direction the wind is blowing. There must be more video because the footage shown live TV at the time was different and the wing strike was not clear. Regardless *way to low* Juan, wondering if you were going to discuss Mike Patey's event on the way to Oshkosh. The butter smooth landing speaks volumes but would still like to hear your thoughts.
Flew both 215 & 415’s for 35 years Juan your analysis is spot on. The 215 impacts the ground 5 seconds after the float gets bashed off. 5 seconds attention was not focused on flying the aircraft. My condolences to their family friends & colleagues.
it does appear that the leading edge ahead of the aileron looks heavily damaged Thus loss of airflow over the aileron Which I dont think it would matter at this time during the event they only had a couple of seconds they were in a bad situation
Do you think possibly that the crew were looking at the wing/ back to see the damage to the aircraft? 5 seconds doesn't seem a long time when looking for damage and assessing, but 5 seconds in this situation is all it took for them to loose focus of their flight path and crash?
@@shanebrennan4657 hitting a tree in a Gully with rising ground all around them is a disaster in the making if they would of released the load on target they probably would of had a chance they dumped the load too late a mere 1/2 a second would of made a difference in a 5 second event, obvious theses pilots are not professional like WRC Rally car drivers that do the same speeds as a CL215 water bomber the crew knew it was there last bomb run after punching there bomb load too late we in Canada dont operate these machines like the Euros we have a safety system in place You do not drop a load without Authority from a spotter Plane the Air attack officer in the Bird dog gives you permission and they have done a real simulation practice with there aircraft before you go in to drop the load this is done with Military Precision and of course it is not military in Canada that performs water Bombing
Thank you Juan for a very clear and very respectful explanation of this tragedy. Condolences to the crew who were killed trying to protect their homeland.
This is a terrible tragedy, Juan, u critically analyzed this crash with such professionalism, RIP to the family’s of those pilots who’s efforts will be always remembered. Hindsight is 20/20 vision
Back in the 90s I was involved with a bird strike in a Cessna 182 where the bird entered and remained embedded in the leading edge of the right wing, only inches from the aileron cable pulley. If it would have hit where the pulley was located I have no doubt it would have jammed the controls and created an unrecoverable event. I wonder if this is a similar design and the leading edge impact could have compromised the aileron controls...or if the float structure still attached to the arcraft may have been bent back enough to interfere with the aileron...
There seems to be little or no left rudder input. Which does beg the question of was the Pilot able to give that to the control surface/s or was there something else going on. The approach was aggressive a bit more than usual but the result should not have been this.
Those pilots died as heroes. But the critique is absolutely justified, maybe these pilots need more training to prevent this target fixation cowboy approach. There has been too many crashes and close calls.
The plane is making the drop in the Lee of that rising terrain. They could have encountered sinking air hindering the climb out, causing the impact with the tree. RIP the brave pilots.
This past Monday a helicopter N482TJ crashed while doing part 133 operations. I used to fly that aircraft and would be interested in what happened. The people I know there are being tight lipped. Pilot survived with serious injuries.
I flew CL-415s for a few years. You're wrong about two things. 1) There is definitely a big balloon when you drop a load. It required you to significantly push forward on the yoke as you release to counter it. It settled itself quickly after the drop, though. 2) They were not too low. There is an optimum drop altitude and speed for load dispersal. If you drop too high, the load just gets too dispersed and isn't effective at putting out the fire. Too low, and you just knock trees over with a big ball of water. The problem with these clowns is they were diving onto a fire. You should be parallel to the terrain well before you do your drop. Why add a pullup to all the other stuff you have to deal with? It just adds an unnecessary element of danger and decreases your chance of timing an efficient release of the load. He also missed his target. You have to drop your load BEFORE you get to the fire to give the load a chance to fall onto the fire. These European countries that use the military to fly Canadairs are a joke. I've seen videos of these kids flying them. They pump and crank the yoke with no finesse at all. It's okay to fly smoothly. Nobody is trying to shoot you down. In that Italian crash, they also overshot their target and made the mistake of paralleling the ridge before banking (increasing stall speed) toward the target (and towards rising terrain). They would have been way better off coming at the fire from perpendicular to the ridge and parallel the slope with their wings level. The train does not rise down the slope.
I have no experience on water bombers but have tens of thousands of hours of low level float operations, mainly Beavers and Otters. I agree with your opinion of using military pilots to fly these aircraft! Most military pilots do not have the time or experience in low level flying to be operating this type of equipment. I have flown and trained ex military fighter jocks on floatplanes and every one of them was humbled by the experience. I’m not saying floatplane pilots are better but rather it is a whole different world of flying, especially with the low level component thrown in. When you have many thousands of hours flying around at extreme low level in an aircraft that is not exactly high performance you learn to think and react differently.
I would never call the pilots " Clowns " poor choice of words ,,, but I agree with your assessment of either very lacking training procedures or severe low hours " on type ". Defiantly a tragically preventable incident .
@@waynemanning3262 a simple opinion of me is if you haven't trained in Canada you do not have the training to do low level water bombing with a Scooper or any other discipline like off strip on all the DHC aircraft We Canadians do it all North Pole South Pole and beyond the only place a twin otter hasn't been is in space Dehavilland products and the aviators that fly them are the best in the world we are the explorers of the world only the DC3 T is in the league of the DHC
Right after the aircraft collides with the tree it appears to have a significant right-yawing force. Look at the mist as it trails behind and to the right of the longitudinal axis. Asking about an aileron/rudder interconnect system is a reasonable question.
So sad. I have been awaiting your expert view on this and your insights are very interesting. Watching the video in real time a few times over shows the sudden change of state/attitude of the aircraft after the tree impact, possibly supporting the aileron- rudder interconnection. We must all be thankfull for these brave pilots who risk their lives in order to save others.
I am so saddened of the loss of the crew fighting this fire. Mistakes were made sure, but for the cause, they are heroes. I am sure many will skewer them. Not me. Tragic. My condolences to their families. Thanks as always for your professional reporting Juan.
I bet their families wish theyd just stayed home and let the world burn.. the sacrefice at this point isnt for the fire its for accident prevention. If nobody dies nobody listens.
any mistakes they may have made have certainly already been payed for. lets remember what they were trying to do; put a fire out and save peoples homes and lives.
"I am sure many will skewer them. Not me." Not sure I understand your tone. Nobody's trying to "skewer" anybody. Ruthless post-fatality analysis is how you save lives in the future. Tears don't bring back the dead.
You apparently cut the video short to avoid showing the impact. These guys flew into a gulch or canyon, eventually terminating in a fireball. They had a fair amount of time to contemplate their fate. In cases like this where it's fairly safe to assume the cause is pilot error, I'd suggest showing the entire video. Not to be macabre, but to discourage such "cowboys" in the future!
As evidenced by the water trail, I see a large sideslip angle indicating a hard yaw to the right. From that alone I suspect the controls were jammed. That's a tough job. RIP, young guys.
During that day there where at least 3 major fires around here Greece. They took off just before sunrise. They where tired for sure because all the previous days before the incident aerial firefighters where getting redirected to multiple locations every day. It was chaos here all week. Local sources say that the controls where jammed after the aircraft struck the tree. I watched it live as it happened.
It looks like there is significant damage to the right outboard leading edge of the wing that becomes visible as the plane goes perpendicular to the camera. 😢
Just looking at the flying of this type of firefighting aircraft it leads me to believe that these pilots adrenaline junkies. The flying requires dangerous maneuvering and constant attention when performing a drop and like he says it's cowboy flying. It's a quick thinking young man's game. It's a seriously risky job and I'm sure the WWII pilots did much more riskier flying while strafing ground targets with a high performance airplane, it's in their DNA. It's an exciting job but there is no room for error when you cross the line.
Every since I watched the show Ice Pilots and Buffalo was selling these old CL-215 waterbombers to Turkey I've worried about bombers in Europe. They don't seem to get nearly the amount of training necessary.
I was patiently waiting for Juan to get back home and provide his commentary. Thanks again Juan for explaining what possibly could have gone wrong. And as usual there is no reason for a perfectly operational aircraft to be flown into the ground other than due to ‘cowboy’ piloting.😢
I think that tree was stout enough to warp the wing spar a couple of degrees or something. Impact may have injured pilots or just ruined control connections internally. Sad to see
Descansen en paz los dos pilotos. Quien da la vida por proteger el legado de las siguientes generaciones es un heroe, en la mejor expresión del termino.
I thought it was the aleron. Why does it crash so easily then I wonder. It looks like the right elevator does change. 4:11 Right elevator applied , 4:55 released
Thank you for another excellent walk-through of the accident. It is always sad when lives are lost, but doubly so when the ones we lose are fighting fires to save lives, properties, and areas of value.
@@buckwheathikes1261 Well, I don't know how wealthy Greeks were who died or were threatened. The pilots certainly were not. As for "areas of value", that could be some poor guy's only home. Speculation. Fire doesn't tend to focus on some economic class, it just burns where it chooses. And has to be put out if possible.
@@buckwheathikes1261 I get the point. But do we know anything about the most threatened by this spot fire? If it was mentioned, I missed it. I just assume there was no discussion of the influence of those threatened. Firefighters go fight when fires start. No rich people in my neighborhood, but the trucks come anyway.
@@buckwheathikes1261 I'm a believer in insuring my home. Never went without it. But the threats aren't really spot fires. They are hailstorms and falling trees. And rich is almost the diametric opposite of who I am. The home MADE me poor! Had to buy it to realize what a bad idea it can be.
@@buckwheathikes1261 Being a homeowner is like owning a car. It takes study to discover how not to be eaten alive by the costs. My brother in northern California got a place in the foothills which has been tolerable for decades. Not like "Paradise California" that was incinerated. No aircraft saved any part of that city.
Looks like the torque of the sudden impact caused a serious yaw ... and they don't appear to have corrected w opposite rudder... you can see the horrible yaw in the photo where the long axis is at a sick angle w respect to the water / vapor trail
I think there can be seen (4:43) extensive leading edge damage on the outer right wing. This would both create asymmetric drag and also destroy lift on the wing outer portion. At this point, it is a question why there does not seem to be any rudder input by the pilot, probably as you say controls were jammed? You are also right to question why such fire was not dealt with other means , but you also have to put it into the context of the situation in Greece (and other Mediterranean countries) the last few days, a lot of fires and not enough ground forces (or CL-2x5s for that matter).
It’s hard to put a like on a video where two people die. However Juan’s concise and educational explanations are always spot on. I don’t even fly, I got interested in this channel from the destroyed spillway videos and never left. Thanks for the video and I hope the families of the two pilots have the support they need. ✌️💚🖖Everyone
I initially thought this to be an approach turn (accelerated) stall but agree that on closer inspect the surfaces were still flying. It seems that it would be easy to become too comfortable with a low approach like this, you do it a few times and get away with it until that one time arrives. I would like to know what the standardization process for these crews. Tragic loss and my condolences to the families and crews. Thank you for your professionalism Juan.
Hey Juan! Did you see that the AIB Report for the Oct 2022 F-35A crash at Hill AFB came out this week? Fascinating look at wake turbulence procedures, thought you’d be interested to see it if you hadn’t yet.
Firefighting aircraft, whether rotory or fixed wing operate in VERY unconventional manners... These pilots are facing different terrain and challenges on EVERY flight. As a retired professional F/F in CA, our crew was first on scene of a Skycrane crash upon taking off at make-shift fire helibase (3 heavies and 6 light helicopters). The pilot walked us through the "potentials & what-if's" should his helicopter crash during a morning briefing... He said it would most likely happen on take-off, it would roll right and fuel-hydraulic fluids making contact with the hot exhaust would be the primary issue... 2 hours later, the Skycrane crashed EXACTLY how he stated it would... He (pilot) self extricated, we had to extricate his co-pilot and we dumped 20 five gallon cans (all we had) of AFFF concentrate (1:6 ratio with water) on the exhaust to cool and cover the spilled fuel and broken hydraulic lines.
Thanks Juan. I believe left aileron up is visible by its shadow when bank angle is around 90 degrees. While expecting a strong attachment to the wing, I'd think a permanent twist of the wing with float getting an impact load along the flight direction before detaching. If such a twist had happened the angle of incidence would have been dangerously decreased causing a great lift loss on the right. This may end up with a permanent roll that may have been beyond the aileron control power.
twist Not going to happen this is a 215 It was built to withstand unimaginable forces It is a Purpose built Waterbomber That went thru rigorus certification The Canadian / Provincial Goververnments of Canada were the the first to Aquire these Machines The 215 aircraft is built like a Tank Eg. Tanker With Mighty PW 2800 radial engines, The Sound Of Round engines doesn't get any better its a Beast
Possible the pilot was looking hard right and perhaps leaning in fixating on the surprise wing strike and kept inadvertent control input consistent with a right turn until it was past the point of no return? RIP and deepest condolences to family and friends.
I’m not a pilot so this may sound like a basic question. Who provides training for these aerial firefighter pilots? Will De Havilland provide training for customers that buy the new CL-415 and DHC-515 Firefighters ?
Greetings from Ireland 🇮🇪,,, thank you for your analysis ,interesting observation about never bombing up hill and about the contents being stored around the centre of gravity a sad loss to all involved 🙏
Watching the whole movie carefully to the end (impossible due to YT policy, but you can find it on the net) you can see the impact of a broken float on blocking or breaking the cables to the right aileron. The right aileron is in the up position, adding a hit to the right wing and very low altitude in rough terrain, resulting in a right wing roll.
Damn. We all make mistakes. Sad these young pilots didn't survive with a close call and learn from their mistake. Hopefully, others will learn and heed your advice. Cowboying on a horse means you fall off the horse and get beat up. Not so when a plane bucks you off.
The wind/smoke appears to be drifting off perpendicular to the heading the pilot is attacking from, so my question is: Why fly into rising terrain instead of flying 180 degrees opposite and downhill for the drop? Is there a preference/reason for fire bombers one way or another?
Dive towards fire on a hill. Fly so low you hit a tree. Hard turn required to turn away from raising terrain. My goodness is he trying to fly like a stunt plane? I fully suspect controls where jammed; one late in my opinion with counter roll input and two, the rudder never went further back than center. Indicates to me he might have struggled with controls.
How young they were & how tragic. Were looking @ the top & the belly is where floats struts might have damaged underside of wing , uncapable of any corrections & yes , that low in hilly terrains can only mean trouble. 😢
There are tens of thousands of people on these islands in the summer, hotels full to bursting, a huge economic impact. Hotels were at risk, people being evacuated.
Yes, it looks very much like target fixation and then jammed controls. I can't believe they would continue a very well trimmed turn right into terrain. Impact of the right wing should have triggered a reactive full left rudder application.
Hey mate, military helicopter crashed today in Queensland, 4 people perished Earlier in the same day, two aircraft collided at ‘Caboolture Airport’ in Brisbane Sad day in Australian aviation
I agree Juan. All the points you made is what I thought of watching this. As well, another factor may be that Greece allows "lone wolfing", that is they don't utilize a birddog or a lead plane. So many things went wrong here. Rest in peace brothers.
Thank you for getting right to the point of the very low and unstable drop. I believe your assessment of target fixation is spot on. Scoopers are capable of so many drops in a fuel cycle and a judgement drift can be very insidious when you are banging away on the same target for multiple drops. Add to that the state of emergency, the pressure they were under and a long duty day, they must have been exhausted. Such a tragedy to lose these aerial firefighters.
There's also an issue that the ambient temperatures are very high, as I understand it, there are issues with the water evaporating too early and not being effective. There has been some discussion in Greece about how these Canadair aircraft aren't as useful as the AT-802 because of this.
Hey Juan, thank you for the time invested to present this accident. Furthermore I must say you are the first person (to my knowledge) that touches the matter of the approach and final drop run which in my opinion is a huge contribution to the fatal tree strike. Plus one of the few that noticed the structural damage of the right leading edge possibly causing further damage and jamming the aileron on full deflection. Right now there is much debate in the Hellenic Air Force (HAF) community regarding all the above plus the human factor contribute and weather prevailing (the area of operations is notorious for is high/gusting winds and heavy turbulence. Oh anb by the way I'm active duty HAF warrant officer (tech) and single engine PPL holder... Thanx again....
Learn something....save a life, save a plane. As an old pilot I see several serious mistakes here......condolences to families....RIP, but let's all learn from this one. Good vid.
I think it looks like the pilot was avoiding an approach in the smoke, and in doing so he was not following a terrain contour. It is bewildering that we don't see left rudder. The right wing leading edge seemed damaged, so without stalling it would not be making the normal amount of lift.
Best explanation of this accident on Rhodes island, gut feeling is fire crews & flyers are totally overwhelmed by these wildfires going on for so long. Rip to the Greek airforce crew.
It looks like he had the left aileron was up shortly following the collision and the right aileron was also up, most likely jammed in that position from the impact with the trees. Shadows also confirm the left aileron was still up just prior to final impact. Great report, Juan. Thanks again for your service!
Sad for the families of these pilots...rip You're right Juan...too low into rising terrain, clipping the tree and the surprise factor...possibly jammed controls...so sad
The float is mounted beneath the wing, so before it broke of it could have warped the wing creating a tendency to turn right having a negative AOA compared to the left wing?
same thing happened last year in italy the guy took a too sharp of a turn and spun the airplane into the ground. You gotta ask yourself was this fire that important to be flying that low to the ground when approaching terrain that is increasing in height? This Fire didn't look like it posed that much at risk it was a small fire too.
It is also a risk verse reward decision even sending a bomber in on something like this, so small. There appears to be a road right there, a type 3 truck maybe could have dealt with it at less risk and cost. Tough decisions the fire boss must make.
Sad loss of life. Thanks Juan for your explanation of this tragic event. Will be interesting to see the results of the investigation and whether fleet age and training comes under scrutiny. It’s difficult but essential for crew not to be caught up by the drama of the fire, and it could perhaps explain contributing factors.
It certainly looks like a loss of aileron control. The impact with the tree could have caused the control surface to jam and as you noted there just wasn;t enought altitude to counter the steep bank angle. The CL-215 is a real pig to fly especially with the unavoidable and sudden changes in the CG.
RIP flyers and comfort for families and friends. Thanks Juan for your evaluations. Curious if the impact with the tree jerked pilots hand on throttles backwards, retarding power? Appears no aileron and rudder correction suggests jammed controls. They might have 'gotten away' with such approach Too many times without being corrected. A Sad day.
Probably they didn´t even realize that they would dy - they were obviously fixated onto the fire and onto dropping their water as close into it as possible - and in the next moment it was over. RIP.
The ”seem like eternity” would imply they were frozen and just staring at the ground rushing up. More likely is that they tried to regain control until the very end. Check for example Mentour Pilot’s video on Alaska Airlines flight 261. The pilots were trying even when the airliner was rolled upside down, diving towards the ocean. Respect & condolances.
It seems there is a lot of wisdom and lessons learned from decades of aerial firefighting, yet these accidents continue to occur. Perhaps CRM like in the airlines would help, the pilot flying would be concentrating on the fire and where to dump the load, and the pilot not flying would look at the overall situation. Perhaps the second pilot should be the "mission commander", not just a copilot building time, and have the authority to terminate a drop if it's unsafe. Regardless, it seems more training is in order.
"You never want to drop into rising terrain." That is 95% correct. (If it is gently rising and you drop above the elevation of the rising terrain in front of you) However, videos are 2-dimensional. It looks as though they had planned a right turning drop into a valley descending to the right. That is completely acceptable. They just got too low and you can't raise the right wing to avoid the tree based on your escape brief. Just my 2 cents being a tanker pilot for over a decade.
Also wondering if the load from tearing the float off might have twisted the wing such that it has a negative AOA (even a few degrees nose down AoA on the Right wing tip would act like heavy right aileron input)
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I built 415’s for 16 years. The aileron bell-cranks are located in the rear spar, midspan of the ailerons. This puts them a few feet inboard of the float attach points. The clearances between the bellcrank and the spar structure are rather close. If the impact twisted the rear spar enough, it’s possible the bellcrank became jammed.
The 415 does have a rudder aileron interconnect system in which the rudder system provides some control input the aileron system. However, the aileron system does not provide input to rudder system. The 215 likely has a similar system.
Thanks Darryl!
Are the wing floats designed to sheer off? What type of load would be required to sheer of if it hits the water on a bad scoop attempt? Would it cause damage in that case to the ailerons?
@@rumbecker5085 Primarily designed to shear from a lateral load but I don’t know the numbers.
I forgot to mention the mechanics, engineers, ground crews, tenders and support staff that keep these amazing machines on mission.
❤️
Based on that I would say its possible for the ailerons to become jammed but not the rudder.
These pilots were on duty for almost ten hours when this incident occurred, it was also their last scheduled drop for the day. Fatigue is also a prime factor in this accident. It will be interesting to see if investigators have the knowledge to determine if the engine on the affected side was damaged in this strike.
Curious about the right engine performance, it looked to me like the aircraft had lost power on the right side. Wings level pitch up to blue line .
Good point. Not a pilot, but looking at the video the decent down to the fire just seemed too steep for the terrain. Fatigue and a bit of a rush to finish the day may have made the pilot take a slight risk in delivering the last payload?
I think this people there are all over-worked, they do not have enough breaks to rest and regenerate their mind. I do errors too if I am working to long on a row, but I can delete the file and can start new or fix the error at the next day.
This people in their planes could possibly use drones in the future to make all the dangerous work.
Actually was 3 hours from 11.45 to 14.50. This was the last drop before return to bace.
10 hours.
Crazy.
As a volunteer firefighter in Australia can I add my condolences and take a moment to remember the 3 US airmen who died fighting fires in Australia on Jan 23rd 2020 during our 'Black Summer'. They were Captain Ian McBeth, first officer Paul Clyde Hudson, and flight engineer Rick DeMorgan Jr. Their sacrifice has not been forgotten here.
Classy.
Australia has had crazy fires. Big news.
i just watched a full documentary the other night about the Australian 'Black Summer' i cried so many times, such a dreadful mess and so many people perished, way too many, and many of them so young - i can't help but say it shouldn't happen
its hard to imagine in this day and age with all our tech that not enough information was getting updated for people to see - i wish there was something i could do to help prevent these things going on, maybe one day
@@patchmack4469 Australia is one of the least populated land masses in the world. And yet the fires caused loss of life? Aren't Australians just sort of perched in a strip by the sea?
nice virtue signal sir - well played. Nothing classier riding off the back of someone elses death
Look at that yaw to the right Juan. The spray off the belly really shows the angle of yaw. And you can actually see a bit of right rudder as well. I think that you’re right that the controls are jammed.
Maybe jammed, maybe the PIC moved in his seat?
Yep...
Consider the wind moving the smoke uphill, right to left.
The right wing drops into the turn, the wind cuts the AoA, and then the impact throws the entire airframe into a spin.
Not enough speed, not enough altitude, not enough reaction time to recover?
Respectfully, your thoughts?
I’m sure the crew’s instincts were to try and get those wings back to level. I don’t know how, but it seems that the controls were indeed jammed and no time or altitude to try to overcome. Yea, very sad.
But what would have jammed the rudder? At least one of them needed to stomp the rudder hard left. Don't know what kind of training they go through over there, but too many people flying here in the US are extremely unfamiliar with proper rudder work. I see this frequently teaching tailwheel.
I live in Greece and this accident put a nation into mourning. We have been experiencing devastating wildfires for almost a month. More than 600 fires in the last 10 days. Almost 100 firefighting aircraft in constant operation from dawn to dusk. I can really understand the over zealous approach this crew took, unfortunately mistakes like that aren't forgiving.
Very reminiscent of the worst of the pandemic and impact on frontline medical people. My wife had to go to an ER and it was a madnouse.
They really need to look at overworking the crews. They not only lost 2 lives and a plane but started another fire.
@@HOWNDOG66 It seems like war. Nobody looks at workload in war. But the best way to control workload is preparation when the fires are not happening.
It is a sad situation, as are all accidental deaths, but out of curiosity, if a car crash kills 2 people in Greece does the country mourn?
So sad to see this happening, neighbour😢. RIP crew.
As an Ex Airman in the Greek military airforce 1986(used to re fuel them), my heart bleeds looking at this accident. Routinely the CL215 is used in extremely low altitudes, mistakes happen and lives are lost, it’s one thing being on the ground and commenting and a very different situation flying for hours on end, knowing that what you do is saving lives and in the process your life is in danger. 🇬🇷🇦🇺❤️
Analysis of accident cause is important.
id really say this is about experience and fatigue.
There is absolutely no need to fly at such a low altitude to drop water on any fire. And as said in this video it was a cowboy approach and a poor technique to achieve his work.
I've seen too many clips of tanker pilots seemingly "Hotdogging", flying too low, banking too hard and taking wild chances. It catches up to you eventually. "There are old pilots and bold pilots, but not many old bold pilots"
God Bless their families, very sad.
It does look as if the controls weren't free. Curious as to what they'll find. RIP crew. 🙏
RIP - This one hit really close to home because I was stationed at that air base with the firefighting aircraft during the 2007 Greek forest fires, when we lost two more pilots. Greece's terrain is very vertically challenging and forests are so close to inhabited areas that pilots regularly dive down to 30-40 feet to make the drops effective, fearing loss of life if the fire is uncontrolled.
I can remember driving cars like this when I was young until an incident proved to me that I was not smart or invincible.
modern cars today give a false sense of security, sitting at 140mph feels like 70 in an older car, untill a tyre blows out and your in the central reservation, hindsight is a funny thing
I can remember getting rear-ended by someone who drove like this when I was younger.
Can even confirm - the driver was neither smart nor invincible.
@@therefused1TBF, suspension, brakes, and general stability of a modern car are like a spaceship compared to those older cars.
Yet here in Greece whenever there is such cowboy attitude in the Armed Forces (CL-215s belong to the Air Force) that leads to damage or total loss of precious equipment the people responsible are not removed from flying duty, rarely reprimanded, but instead moved to other flight wings, or just keep flying in the same wing. Because if they live through the event the blame NEVER goes to the pilots since the officers conducting the investigation never put the blame on their own. If they get killed , like those guys, they are posthumously promoted and given a hero's funerals. In the meantime, they have destroyed a rare and expensive plane that is precious and was paid with hard earned taxpayer money.
What do you know about these pilots to dare call them cowboys?
It does appear that he wss trying to completely extinguish the fire in one drop.
A better plan would be to make drops on the up-hill side and the direction the wind is blowing.
There must be more video because the footage shown live TV at the time was different and the wing strike was not clear.
Regardless *way to low*
Juan, wondering if you were going to discuss Mike Patey's event on the way to Oshkosh. The butter smooth landing speaks volumes but would still like to hear your thoughts.
Good point about dropping in rising terrain
He's flying like he lost sight of his drop spot. There's no reason to drop the water over a football field late on the advancing fire.
I would like to hear your take on the Allegiant Air A320 & Gulfstream "near-miss" incident. Upon viewing the radar tracks it doesn't seem so bad.
Flew both 215 & 415’s for 35 years Juan your analysis is spot on. The 215 impacts the ground 5 seconds after the float gets bashed off. 5 seconds attention was not focused on flying the aircraft. My condolences to their family friends & colleagues.
How about the aileron to rudder interconnect that Juan is talking about? Could that have played a factor in the absent control inputs?
@@theHDRflightdeck in this case I don’t believe so. The 215 doesn’t have hydraulically powered flight controls like the 415 or 215T.
it does appear that the leading edge ahead of the aileron looks heavily damaged Thus loss of airflow over the aileron Which I dont think it would matter at this time during the event they only had a couple of seconds they were in a bad situation
Do you think possibly that the crew were looking at the wing/ back to see the damage to the aircraft? 5 seconds doesn't seem a long time when looking for damage and assessing, but 5 seconds in this situation is all it took for them to loose focus of their flight path and crash?
@@shanebrennan4657 hitting a tree in a Gully with rising ground all around them is a disaster in the making if they would of released the load on target they probably would of had a chance they dumped the load too late a mere 1/2 a second would of made a difference in a 5 second event, obvious theses pilots are not professional like WRC Rally car drivers that do the same speeds as a CL215 water bomber
the crew knew it was there last bomb run after punching there bomb load too late
we in Canada dont operate these machines like the Euros we have a safety system in place You do not drop a load without Authority from a spotter Plane the Air attack officer in the Bird dog gives you permission and they have done a real simulation practice with there aircraft before you go in to drop the load this is done with Military Precision and of course it is not military in Canada that performs water Bombing
Heartbreaking to watch...we're witnessing the end of two men's lives..and they were brave men too.
Thank you Juan for a very clear and very respectful explanation of this tragedy. Condolences to the crew who were killed trying to protect their homeland.
This is a terrible tragedy, Juan, u critically analyzed this crash with such professionalism, RIP to the family’s of those pilots who’s efforts will be always remembered. Hindsight is 20/20 vision
Can you name one tragedy that isn't terrible?
@@zyrrhos Did that make you feel good? Was that dopamine hit worth being an ass?
@@zyrrhosI can at least mention one post not being meaningful...
@@perwestermark8920 Make that two, three if you count this one.
@@zyrrhos what’s your point mate
Seems that it may have damaged the starboard aileron on impact with the tree - there appears to be an inability to roll to port after the impact.
Right aileron looked up throughout. Jammed?
Back in the 90s I was involved with a bird strike in a Cessna 182 where the bird entered and remained embedded in the leading edge of the right wing, only inches from the aileron cable pulley. If it would have hit where the pulley was located I have no doubt it would have jammed the controls and created an unrecoverable event. I wonder if this is a similar design and the leading edge impact could have compromised the aileron controls...or if the float structure still attached to the arcraft may have been bent back enough to interfere with the aileron...
Allmost bet $ on it
I did not think of the possibility of aileron and rudder jam. That is plausible. The investigators will find out.
There seems to be little or no left rudder input. Which does beg the question of was the Pilot able to give that to the control surface/s or was there something else going on. The approach was aggressive a bit more than usual but the result should not have been this.
@@Mgp-Rc yes, that is what Juan said in this video. A possible jamming up of the controls could indeed have been the cause of this tragic crash.
Those pilots died as heroes. But the critique is absolutely justified, maybe these pilots need more training to prevent this target fixation cowboy approach. There has been too many crashes and close calls.
Again thank you so much for the update. It was devastating news for us
The plane is making the drop in the Lee of that rising terrain. They could have encountered sinking air hindering the climb out, causing the impact with the tree. RIP the brave pilots.
This past Monday a helicopter N482TJ crashed while doing part 133 operations. I used to fly that aircraft and would be interested in what happened. The people I know there are being tight lipped. Pilot survived with serious injuries.
I flew CL-415s for a few years. You're wrong about two things. 1) There is definitely a big balloon when you drop a load. It required you to significantly push forward on the yoke as you release to counter it. It settled itself quickly after the drop, though. 2) They were not too low. There is an optimum drop altitude and speed for load dispersal. If you drop too high, the load just gets too dispersed and isn't effective at putting out the fire. Too low, and you just knock trees over with a big ball of water.
The problem with these clowns is they were diving onto a fire. You should be parallel to the terrain well before you do your drop. Why add a pullup to all the other stuff you have to deal with? It just adds an unnecessary element of danger and decreases your chance of timing an efficient release of the load. He also missed his target. You have to drop your load BEFORE you get to the fire to give the load a chance to fall onto the fire.
These European countries that use the military to fly Canadairs are a joke. I've seen videos of these kids flying them. They pump and crank the yoke with no finesse at all. It's okay to fly smoothly. Nobody is trying to shoot you down. In that Italian crash, they also overshot their target and made the mistake of paralleling the ridge before banking (increasing stall speed) toward the target (and towards rising terrain). They would have been way better off coming at the fire from perpendicular to the ridge and parallel the slope with their wings level. The train does not rise down the slope.
They would be better off with land based 802 ATs as a training platform
I have no experience on water bombers but have tens of thousands of hours of low level float operations, mainly Beavers and Otters. I agree with your opinion of using military pilots to fly these aircraft! Most military pilots do not have the time or experience in low level flying to be operating this type of equipment. I have flown and trained ex military fighter jocks on floatplanes and every one of them was humbled by the experience. I’m not saying floatplane pilots are better but rather it is a whole different world of flying, especially with the low level component thrown in. When you have many thousands of hours flying around at extreme low level in an aircraft that is not exactly high performance you learn to think and react differently.
I have a question, are the wing floats designed to break off? Is there an AFM section that states this?
I would never call the pilots " Clowns " poor choice of words ,,, but I agree with your assessment of either very lacking training procedures or severe low hours " on type ". Defiantly a tragically preventable incident .
@@waynemanning3262 a simple opinion of me is if you haven't trained in Canada you do not have the training to do low level water bombing with a Scooper or any other discipline like off strip on all the DHC aircraft We Canadians do it all North Pole South Pole and beyond the only place a twin otter hasn't been is in space Dehavilland products and the aviators that fly them are the best in the world we are the explorers of the world only the DC3 T is in the league of the DHC
Right after the aircraft collides with the tree it appears to have a significant right-yawing force. Look at the mist as it trails behind and to the right of the longitudinal axis. Asking about an aileron/rudder interconnect system is a reasonable question.
So sad. I have been awaiting your expert view on this and your insights are very interesting. Watching the video in real time a few times over shows the sudden change of state/attitude of the aircraft after the tree impact, possibly supporting the aileron- rudder interconnection. We must all be thankfull for these brave pilots who risk their lives in order to save others.
Isn’t it time to turn this market over to the drones?
They're not big enough for waterdrops
A ton or two of water - no drone has been built that could carry that.
@@anthonyangeli256 Im not talking DJIs
@@rogerturner5504 You do not understand what a drone is…..
@@davidwebb4904 Tell us about your drone that could do this job.
You pointed out something that no news channel covered and that is that he hit the tree.
It was one of the first things they said?
I see hard right aileron deflection from before during and after impact with the trees…it looks like to me it never changes?
I am so saddened of the loss of the crew fighting this fire. Mistakes were made sure, but for the cause, they are heroes. I am sure many will skewer them. Not me. Tragic. My condolences to their families. Thanks as always for your professional reporting Juan.
I bet their families wish theyd just stayed home and let the world burn.. the sacrefice at this point isnt for the fire its for accident prevention. If nobody dies nobody listens.
Couldn't have said it better!
any mistakes they may have made have certainly already been payed for. lets remember what they were trying to do; put a fire out and save peoples homes and lives.
"I am sure many will skewer them. Not me."
Not sure I understand your tone. Nobody's trying to "skewer" anybody. Ruthless post-fatality analysis is how you save lives in the future. Tears don't bring back the dead.
@@MichaelOfRohanthey will come to understand in time we all must die
Always work backwards....the cause of this crash is pilot error. What caused that error?
You apparently cut the video short to avoid showing the impact. These guys flew into a gulch or canyon, eventually terminating in a fireball. They had a fair amount of time to contemplate their fate.
In cases like this where it's fairly safe to assume the cause is pilot error, I'd suggest showing the entire video. Not to be macabre, but to discourage such "cowboys" in the future!
A guaranteed strike from the thin skinned censors at TH-cam 😒
As evidenced by the water trail, I see a large sideslip angle indicating a hard yaw to the right. From that alone I suspect the controls were jammed. That's a tough job. RIP, young guys.
Maybe jammed ailerons, but what would have jammed the rudder?
@@MetroplexAerials relisten to 6:25 and onward.
Hit the tree….
@@SethSutherland jammed opposite? left roll and right rudder
@@MetroplexAerials Aileron-rudder interconnect.
During that day there where at least 3 major fires around here Greece. They took off just before sunrise. They where tired for sure because all the previous days before the incident aerial firefighters where getting redirected to multiple locations every day. It was chaos here all week. Local sources say that the controls where jammed after the aircraft struck the tree. I watched it live as it happened.
It looks like there is significant damage to the right outboard leading edge of the wing that becomes visible as the plane goes perpendicular to the camera. 😢
Just looking at the flying of this type of firefighting aircraft it leads me to believe that these pilots adrenaline junkies. The flying requires dangerous maneuvering and constant attention when performing a drop and like he says it's cowboy flying. It's a quick thinking young man's game. It's a seriously risky job and I'm sure the WWII pilots did much more riskier flying while strafing ground targets with a high performance airplane, it's in their DNA. It's an exciting job but there is no room for error when you cross the line.
Sad, but a lot of rules broken.
Every since I watched the show Ice Pilots and Buffalo was selling these old CL-215 waterbombers to Turkey I've worried about bombers in Europe. They don't seem to get nearly the amount of training necessary.
WOW..... You might have nailed it Juan....Tree strike Damage they could not overcome🤔... Prayers for them and their families, may they R.I.P.🙏
I was patiently waiting for Juan to get back home and provide his commentary. Thanks again Juan for explaining what possibly could have gone wrong. And as usual there is no reason for a perfectly operational aircraft to be flown into the ground other than due to ‘cowboy’ piloting.😢
They also looked like they were a little late on the drop too, so it was an unstable approach.
Fatigue
That was my first tought when I saw video.
I think that tree was stout enough to warp the wing spar a couple of degrees or something. Impact may have injured pilots or just ruined control connections internally.
Sad to see
Respect for the crew members, condolences to their families 😢
Descansen en paz los dos pilotos. Quien da la vida por proteger el legado de las siguientes generaciones es un heroe, en la mejor expresión del termino.
Amen to that mr.carlos, a truth well said.
@@markbowles2382 Thank you, sir.
They were compatriots.
@@carlosalbertogarciamartine4150 Eran Griegos, no Espanoles. Duhh. He said the names on the video.
I thought it was the aleron. Why does it crash so easily then I wonder. It looks like the right elevator does change. 4:11 Right elevator applied , 4:55 released
Thank you for another excellent walk-through of the accident. It is always sad when lives are lost, but doubly so when the ones we lose are fighting fires to save lives, properties, and areas of value.
@@buckwheathikes1261 Well, I don't know how wealthy Greeks were who died or were threatened. The pilots certainly were not. As for "areas of value", that could be some poor guy's only home. Speculation. Fire doesn't tend to focus on some economic class, it just burns where it chooses. And has to be put out if possible.
@@buckwheathikes1261 I get the point. But do we know anything about the most threatened by this spot fire? If it was mentioned, I missed it. I just assume there was no discussion of the influence of those threatened. Firefighters go fight when fires start. No rich people in my neighborhood, but the trucks come anyway.
@@buckwheathikes1261 I'm a believer in insuring my home. Never went without it. But the threats aren't really spot fires. They are hailstorms and falling trees. And rich is almost the diametric opposite of who I am. The home MADE me poor! Had to buy it to realize what a bad idea it can be.
@@buckwheathikes1261 Being a homeowner is like owning a car. It takes study to discover how not to be eaten alive by the costs. My brother in northern California got a place in the foothills which has been tolerable for decades. Not like "Paradise California" that was incinerated. No aircraft saved any part of that city.
Looks like the torque of the sudden impact caused a serious yaw ... and they don't appear to have corrected w opposite rudder... you can see the horrible yaw in the photo where the long axis is at a sick angle w respect to the water / vapor trail
was the pilot flying to slow to make such a sharp turn?
@@rikji There doesn't appear to be any stall, so that doesn't seem an issue. As in the video, there was no obvious movement of the controls.
I think there can be seen (4:43) extensive leading edge damage on the outer right wing. This would both create asymmetric drag and also destroy lift on the wing outer portion. At this point, it is a question why there does not seem to be any rudder input by the pilot, probably as you say controls were jammed?
You are also right to question why such fire was not dealt with other means , but you also have to put it into the context of the situation in Greece (and other Mediterranean countries) the last few days, a lot of fires and not enough ground forces (or CL-2x5s for that matter).
It’s hard to put a like on a video where two people die. However Juan’s concise and educational explanations are always spot on. I don’t even fly, I got interested in this channel from the destroyed spillway videos and never left. Thanks for the video and I hope the families of the two pilots have the support they need. ✌️💚🖖Everyone
I initially thought this to be an approach turn (accelerated) stall but agree that on closer inspect the surfaces were still flying. It seems that it would be easy to become too comfortable with a low approach like this, you do it a few times and get away with it until that one time arrives. I would like to know what the standardization process for these crews. Tragic loss and my condolences to the families and crews. Thank you for your professionalism Juan.
Hey Juan! Did you see that the AIB Report for the Oct 2022 F-35A crash at Hill AFB came out this week? Fascinating look at wake turbulence procedures, thought you’d be interested to see it if you hadn’t yet.
Link?
Firefighting aircraft, whether rotory or fixed wing operate in VERY unconventional manners... These pilots are facing different terrain and challenges on EVERY flight. As a retired professional F/F in CA, our crew was first on scene of a Skycrane crash upon taking off at make-shift fire helibase (3 heavies and 6 light helicopters). The pilot walked us through the "potentials & what-if's" should his helicopter crash during a morning briefing... He said it would most likely happen on take-off, it would roll right and fuel-hydraulic fluids making contact with the hot exhaust would be the primary issue... 2 hours later, the Skycrane crashed EXACTLY how he stated it would... He (pilot) self extricated, we had to extricate his co-pilot and we dumped 20 five gallon cans (all we had) of AFFF concentrate (1:6 ratio with water) on the exhaust to cool and cover the spilled fuel and broken hydraulic lines.
Thanks Juan. I believe left aileron up is visible by its shadow when bank angle is around 90 degrees. While expecting a strong attachment to the wing, I'd think a permanent twist of the wing with float getting an impact load along the flight direction before detaching. If such a twist had happened the angle of incidence would have been dangerously decreased causing a great lift loss on the right. This may end up with a permanent roll that may have been beyond the aileron control power.
twist Not going to happen this is a 215 It was built to withstand unimaginable forces It is a Purpose built Waterbomber That went thru rigorus certification The Canadian / Provincial Goververnments of Canada were the the first to Aquire these Machines The 215 aircraft is built like a Tank Eg. Tanker With Mighty PW 2800 radial engines, The Sound Of Round engines doesn't get any better its a Beast
Possible the pilot was looking hard right and perhaps leaning in fixating on the surprise wing strike and kept inadvertent control input consistent with a right turn until it was past the point of no return? RIP and deepest condolences to family and friends.
It appears he was late on the water drop as well...driving him deeper into rising terrain.
Yep, poor form all round, not only did he not put out the fire he started another.
I’m not a pilot so this may sound like a basic question.
Who provides training for these aerial firefighter pilots? Will De Havilland provide training for customers that buy the new CL-415 and DHC-515 Firefighters ?
Greetings from Ireland 🇮🇪,,, thank you for your analysis ,interesting observation about never bombing up hill and about the contents being stored around the centre of gravity a sad loss to all involved 🙏
Watching the whole movie carefully to the end (impossible due to YT policy, but you can find it on the net) you can see the impact of a broken float on blocking or breaking the cables to the right aileron. The right aileron is in the up position, adding a hit to the right wing and very low altitude in rough terrain, resulting in a right wing roll.
RIP both brave pilots.
Damn. We all make mistakes. Sad these young pilots didn't survive with a close call and learn from their mistake. Hopefully, others will learn and heed your advice. Cowboying on a horse means you fall off the horse and get beat up. Not so when a plane bucks you off.
This crew was doing their job and trying to do it right and what a shame. RIP to the pilots, condolences to the families.
The wind/smoke appears to be drifting off perpendicular to the heading the pilot is attacking from, so my question is: Why fly into rising terrain instead of flying 180 degrees opposite and downhill for the drop? Is there a preference/reason for fire bombers one way or another?
Dive towards fire on a hill. Fly so low you hit a tree. Hard turn required to turn away from raising terrain. My goodness is he trying to fly like a stunt plane? I fully suspect controls where jammed; one late in my opinion with counter roll input and two, the rudder never went further back than center. Indicates to me he might have struggled with controls.
How young they were & how tragic. Were looking @ the top & the belly is where floats struts might have damaged underside of wing , uncapable of any corrections & yes , that low in hilly terrains can only mean trouble. 😢
Why are they risking their lives on such a small fire in what seems to be quite a remote area?
Because small fires become big fires.
There are tens of thousands of people on these islands in the summer, hotels full to bursting, a huge economic impact. Hotels were at risk, people being evacuated.
Yes, it looks very much like target fixation and then jammed controls. I can't believe they would continue a very well trimmed turn right into terrain. Impact of the right wing should have triggered a reactive full left rudder application.
Hey mate, military helicopter crashed today in Queensland, 4 people perished
Earlier in the same day, two aircraft collided at ‘Caboolture Airport’ in Brisbane
Sad day in Australian aviation
I agree Juan.
All the points you made is what I thought of watching this.
As well, another factor may be that Greece allows "lone wolfing", that is they don't utilize a birddog or a lead plane.
So many things went wrong here.
Rest in peace brothers.
The crew were reckless ...... and pay,d the ultimate price.
Very very sad story YET AGAIN.
time the e.u got tough on operations of water bombers.
Thank you for getting right to the point of the very low and unstable drop. I believe your assessment of target fixation is spot on. Scoopers are capable of so many drops in a fuel cycle and a judgement drift can be very insidious when you are banging away on the same target for multiple drops. Add to that the state of emergency, the pressure they were under and a long duty day, they must have been exhausted. Such a tragedy to lose these aerial firefighters.
There's also an issue that the ambient temperatures are very high, as I understand it, there are issues with the water evaporating too early and not being effective.
There has been some discussion in Greece about how these Canadair aircraft aren't as useful as the AT-802 because of this.
Looks like the starboard wing tip had washout after the tree strike.
Hey Juan, thank you for the time invested to present this accident. Furthermore I must say you are the first person (to my knowledge) that touches the matter of the approach and final drop run which in my opinion is a huge contribution to the fatal tree strike. Plus one of the few that noticed the structural damage of the right leading edge possibly causing further damage and jamming the aileron on full deflection. Right now there is much debate in the Hellenic Air Force (HAF) community regarding all the above plus the human factor contribute and weather prevailing (the area of operations is notorious for is high/gusting winds and heavy turbulence. Oh anb by the way I'm active duty HAF warrant officer (tech) and single engine PPL holder... Thanx again....
Learn something....save a life, save a plane. As an old pilot I see several serious mistakes here......condolences to families....RIP, but let's all learn from this one. Good vid.
No! 😢
These crashes are getting just a bit too common.
The pilot dived towards the drop zone as is he was dive bombing. No wonder he could not recover enough altitude to miss the trees.
I think it looks like the pilot was avoiding an approach in the smoke, and in doing so he was not following a terrain contour. It is bewildering that we don't see left rudder. The right wing leading edge seemed damaged, so without stalling it would not be making the normal amount of lift.
Best explanation of this accident on Rhodes island, gut feeling is fire crews & flyers are totally overwhelmed by these wildfires going on for so long. Rip to the Greek airforce crew.
It looks like he had the left aileron was up shortly following the collision and the right aileron was also up, most likely jammed in that position from the impact with the trees. Shadows also confirm the left aileron was still up just prior to final impact. Great report, Juan. Thanks again for your service!
that's because to dump they use one notch of flaps and makes it look like both ailerons are up.
What about if the right prop damaged also by tree causing increased yaw from God engine?
Sad for the families of these pilots...rip
You're right Juan...too low into rising terrain, clipping the tree and the surprise factor...possibly jammed controls...so sad
JB, could they have come down from the top - down the slope?
Thanks for your time and resources.
Take care and fly safe. 🖖🏼🤟🏼
Yes!
Extremely respectfully explained.
The float is mounted beneath the wing, so before it broke of it could have warped the wing creating a tendency to turn right having a negative AOA compared to the left wing?
Sure. Why not.
same thing happened last year in italy the guy took a too sharp of a turn and spun the airplane into the ground. You gotta ask yourself was this fire that important to be flying that low to the ground when approaching terrain that is increasing in height? This Fire didn't look like it posed that much at risk it was a small fire too.
It does appear there was little to no control inputs to correct the growing bank angle. Did the impact with the tree foul the right aileron?
It is also a risk verse reward decision even sending a bomber in on something like this, so small. There appears to be a road right there, a type 3 truck maybe could have dealt with it at less risk and cost. Tough decisions the fire boss must make.
if there weren't houses downwind of the fire they likely wouldn't have but probably couldn't get a crew up there or close enough to the fire..
This is a small island, the roads wind round the hills, where are all these “type 3” trucks going to come from?
Sad loss of life. Thanks Juan for your explanation of this tragic event. Will be interesting to see the results of the investigation and whether fleet age and training comes under scrutiny. It’s difficult but essential for crew not to be caught up by the drama of the fire, and it could perhaps explain contributing factors.
It certainly looks like a loss of aileron control. The impact with the tree could have caused the control surface to jam and as you noted there just wasn;t enought altitude to counter the steep bank angle. The CL-215 is a real pig to fly especially with the unavoidable and sudden changes in the CG.
RIP flyers and comfort for families and friends. Thanks Juan for your evaluations. Curious if the impact with the tree jerked pilots hand on throttles backwards, retarding power? Appears no aileron and rudder correction suggests jammed controls. They might have 'gotten away' with such approach Too many times without being corrected. A Sad day.
Excellent investigation from an outside viewpoint.
Peace, be still for the pilots, family and friends 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
All I can think is those last several seconds for the pilots must have seemed like a horrifying eternity. It's heartbreaking for the families. RIP
Probably they didn´t even realize that they would dy - they were obviously fixated onto the fire and onto dropping their water as close into it as possible - and in the next moment it was over.
RIP.
The ”seem like eternity” would imply they were frozen and just staring at the ground rushing up. More likely is that they tried to regain control until the very end. Check for example Mentour Pilot’s video on Alaska Airlines flight 261. The pilots were trying even when the airliner was rolled upside down, diving towards the ocean. Respect & condolances.
@@JontteBack I've watched that video.
It seems there is a lot of wisdom and lessons learned from decades of aerial firefighting, yet these accidents continue to occur. Perhaps CRM like in the airlines would help, the pilot flying would be concentrating on the fire and where to dump the load, and the pilot not flying would look at the overall situation. Perhaps the second pilot should be the "mission commander", not just a copilot building time, and have the authority to terminate a drop if it's unsafe. Regardless, it seems more training is in order.
Thank you Jaun for a great technical explanation of a tragic accident . Hopefully the rest of the CL-215 community can learn from this incident.
"You never want to drop into rising terrain." That is 95% correct. (If it is gently rising and you drop above the elevation of the rising terrain in front of you) However, videos are 2-dimensional. It looks as though they had planned a right turning drop into a valley descending to the right. That is completely acceptable. They just got too low and you can't raise the right wing to avoid the tree based on your escape brief. Just my 2 cents being a tanker pilot for over a decade.
"Just Cowboyin' it in" 😂👌🏻
Also wondering if the load from tearing the float off might have twisted the wing such that it has a negative AOA (even a few degrees nose down AoA on the Right wing tip would act like heavy right aileron input)