I was told by a high time warbird pilot, “If you ever feel comfortable flying the T6, you should stop flying it. It’s designed to train fighter pilots, it should never be a plane you’re comfortable with.”
Not seeing or hearing anyone talk about the likely circumstances that lead the loss of control I point out the following. I flew the warbird show on Monday and prior to the show we were assigned to hold over the east portion of the lake at 3200 MSL. Because of the smoke and haze it was extremely difficult to fly because there was zero horizon especially when facing away from the shoreline. The haze literally blended right into the water with no definable horizon. In the debrief, several of the pilots in our flight complained about near vertigo and spatial disorientation during the hold. I would respectfully submit the accident pilots likely suffered the same effects from the environment. Apologies in advance for not reading all comments, I'm sure there were comments very insightful to the subject. God Speed to the two of them.
You have no idea what you’re talking about. Everyone has different training coming up through the ranks. You just like everyone else has no idea exactly what happened.
In the late 1950’s when my father was stationed at RCAF Whitehorse, Yukon, he joined the local flying club as an instructor. He was teaching a doctor to fly. An intelligent and capable person. Passed ground school no problem, was proficient in handling the aircraft in all things BUT stall spin recovery. Dad took him up numerous times putting the aircraft into a stall spin, showed and explained how to recover. Then he would let the Doc try and every time the Doc did the wrong thing. They would debrief after landing, the Doc understood what he had to do but for whatever reason couldn’t do it. After 3 or 4 weekends of this Dad threw in the towel and apologized to the Doc and flat out told him that unless he can demonstrate proficient spin stall recovery he could not let him solo and get his pilots license. I think this type of training and licensing requirement should be introduced all recreational pilots.
I'm seriously blown away that it isn't. That just seems like an absolute basic skill a pilots has to prove and demonstrate they have the ability to recover, if not no license. Why is it not like this anymore??
Twenty years ago i flew the T6 for five years giving acro rides, simulated dog fights and such. The T6 is a beautifully flying aircraft, it is heavy and energy management is critical. Like you stated, it typically drops the right wing and if the stall is "accelerated" that wing drop is pronounced. If in a right turn, you are inverted in no time, but simply unload the wing, continue the roll, and you end up right side up in no time. When setting up our dog fights, we would always start with left turns initially. With "good" pilots or sometimes pilots with too much attitude, we would go right/right set up and we would typically end up executing the above described maneuver. For a spin, once again it takes 3 turns to establish fully developed spin, the nose comes up as the aircraft rotates through the direction of flight, this would explain the decrease is descent rate. Saying all this, you have to force the aircraft into a spin, if you release the back pressure after initial upset, the aircraft simply starts to fly again, in whatever attitude it ends up. I started to fly the T6 with close to 3000 hrs with glider acro, glider towing, Pitts competition aerobatics, 1500 tail wheel time, lots of 310 time (about the same weight as the T6). For this lady, in my opinion, the T6 was too much airplane, too early on and her training didn't demonstrate what happens at the edges of the envelope.
@@mvd4436 Exceeded critical angle of attack or simply pulled to hard for the amount of airspeed/energy the aircraft had. When flying our rides including the dog flights, we flew at low power settings, yep that saved on fuel but it also reduced airspeeds which allowed the airplane to stall at lower g loading. After all we were flying aging airplanes and we did all we could to go easy on them. Our aerobatics also were "ugly" from astatic point of view, but we minimized g loading of the airframe. I thought of your question bit more and there is possibly another factor here. I have flown around 4000, "commercial", hands on, instructional rides. Conducting such a flight requires additional and somewhat unique skills. In addition to flying the airplane the pic also becomes an "entertainer", the pilot now possibly has additional set of requirements for a successful, entertaining flight. In our case it was a basic flying lesson, few loops and rolls (demonstrated and then flown by the pax), running 3 video cameras (not pointing them into the sun and such), sometimes quick forming up with the other T6, not having the pax throw up........all in 30 min flight. I know this was not a 'commercial" type of a ride, but what was the pax "pressure', if any, placed on the pic?
I am a retired Naval aviator and instrument flight instructor. We taught Naval aviator students how to prevent and recover from stalls and spins under IFR conditions (no visual information, only instruments.) Whatever can happen, will happen. We were also told that 500 hours of flight time was our most dangerous period for accidents, because we thought we were good by that time, but we were not as good as we thought we were!
It’s been a few years since my T34C days (1983) , and I am trying to remember what altitude were started them at. It seems like it was higher than 3,800 feet.
I remember doing spin training in the T-2C Buckeye during intermediate jet training in Kingsville, TX back in 1979 when I was in the Marines. They wouldn’t allow us to spin the TA-4J Skyhawk because they said it tended to get in a flat spin. Fun times and memories.
I once got into an inadvertent spin in a T6 when practicing aerobatics…wasn’t as high as I’d have liked to have been either. In the UK the T6 is not cleared for spinning, but I was current in spinning in a Pitts S2B and a Christen Eagle. The spin accelerated viciously when I made the spin recovery inputs - it was a shock, but I knew the inputs I made were correct. It then recovered. It would have been easy to get confused and make incorrect inputs. This was a tragic loss and a reminder how important it is to keep current in stall/spin recovery techniques.
In 1970 I was taking flying lessons in a C-172. We went out on what was to be a standard practice day including lots of stalls. As we started climbing to 5500' my instructor told me that he was forbidden to teach spins. But, he could, and did, explain how to get into and out of a spin. At 5500', he pulled the throttle back. As we stalled, he stepped on the right rudder and put us into a spin. He pulled us out at 5000'. He then told me to take us back to 5500' and it was my turn. We did about 10 spins. I found I enjoyed them. It was fun to lose about 1000'-1500' and watch the ground below. BUT, the C-172 is a tremendously forgiving aircraft. Spins should be taught from the get-go.
Absolutely. If you check out other channels as well, it's over and over again stall/spin/aircraft gettting into an unstable configuration and no recovery. The thing about stall ( and spin ) training is that it needs to be mandatory as if you have no training at all, it's game over almost every time. You have to do things that your primitive brain tells you make it worse and that only comes with training, IMO. Book learning does not translate to action when you are panicking.
Imagine the terror of getting into a deadly situation and not having been taught the simple steps to save your own life. A perfectly good airplane should never crash.
You will scare student pilots off to another airport doing spins too early. I was a flight instructor in light aircraft and I never taught spins. Everybody passed that I sent to examiner of their choice. I told the students to seek a professional firm in Flying magazine (back in the 80s) to learn all the nuances of spins and how to get out of them by training for three or four days with people who do it for a living in a Citabria or some other similar type of aircraft. My personal recovery was so fast in the spin, that I stayed out of trouble. I like to get out of trouble quicker than I got into it. That's why I am old now, up in years, so to speak. The debate over spins will never end and has been raging since the 1950s. Most examiners don't like doing spins with an applicant anyway.
@@dashriprock4308 It'd be up to the instructor to decide when it was the right time. He also forbade me to do them on my own. The C-172 is a great plane to learn spins. It is extremely forgiving. It doesn't like being in a spin. I can not see any reason for it to be included in an exam.
@@dashriprock4308 I suppose it needn’t be mandatory, but it should be commonly offered. Just like defensive driving is not required to obtain a driving permit. My 141 flight school instructors demonstrated spins, but that was more than a few years ago.
Juan-I returned from Oshkosh on Thursday. It was so sad to hear the news of this crash and the other later that day, but your voice always brings encouragement for everyone to take these events and learn from them. I appreciate that as a 65 year old student pilot.
Juan, the calm and informed demeanor with which you are able to inform and educate us while honoring the contribution and memories of those who aspired to achieve in the face of great danger is admirable!
He’s a very experienced airline pilot. His job description is to remain calm. I follow him because he understands air tragedies because of his many years of aviation experience. He was a very good instructor because of his calm and measured approach to flying. You don’t instill confidence in a new pilot by yelling at them. Pete is very lucky to have Juan as his dad.
That bell curve of pilot accidents actually applies outside aviation. I've seen the same bell graph for tradecraft accidents. The same rule of thumb applies where a *brand new* person is so safe they are scared to _do anything_. Then they learn the ropes and feel like they know where the edges of the safty envelope are, and they find out fast they're not right. And it's not always knowing the correct procedure, but having the gut instinct for when it applies. I've been a welder for about 7 years now, and seeing the new crop of employees making the same dumb mistakes and hearing myself say the same things I was told when I started... It kinda makes you appreciate institutonal knowledge. I had a cut-off wheel explode on me, but not 5 minutes before, I had started to make the cut and literally said out loud to myself "well, let's not get hurt today at least". When it let go and bounce off my face shield, I just sat there a little startled and very impressed.
Well said. I cut my thumb deeply on a band saw when I got confident and sloppy while cutting wedges, mind glazed over with repetition. On a related note having watched a bunch of tree cutting fail videos I now spend 20 minutes just circling and reading a tree before I touch it with a saw to make sure I have thought out every possible way it could go wrong to the best of my ability. One of the best pieces of wisdom I ever heard was from a pilot who said: “every day I approach my aircraft looking for reasons not to fly that day”
I don't think people are taught safe/defensive driving techniques anymore, either...I have noticed that so, so many people...most people maybe, as such VERY poor drivers nowadays...I blame driver training, and all the nanny features that make people "safe", and in the process, poor drivers...I think younger drivers aren't taught, and are completely reliant on the vehicle features and technology, focused on the HDTV on the dash instead of what is actually going on around them...and older drivers are sometimes overwhelmed by the technology and get confused or distracted...plus, making vehicles with such poor visibility out of them the driver feels isolated from the world outside...I sure hope this kind of thing doesn't happen with aircraft and pilots. I still think you should be required to do your driving test on a vehicle with a manual transmission to get your license..a manual transmission REQUIRES that you be fully engaged with the driving process...
@@dyer2cycleDefensive driving is not and never has been part of the official curriculum anywhere, ever. Whether teaching it is a good idea is an entirely separate question.
As an indicator of how important it is to know the technique in advance, rather than trying to figure it out intuitively in real time, early aviators considered spins to be absolutely unrecoverable. The recovery technique was eventually discovered completely by accident, when a pilot attempting to bail out inadvertantly stood on a pedal while trying to climb out. When I was training in the UK in the late 90's, the incipient spin was mandatory (after a demonstration from the instructor), but only the demonstration was mandatory for the fully developed spin. I thought the choice to actually fly it myself was a no-brainer, because if it was ever going to happen to me I wanted the first time to be with the safety net of somebody I'd just seen recover one sitting next to me. I would urge anybody that hasn't done one yet to hire an instructor and a nice, docile trainer (mine was an Aerobat) for an hour, and get it under your belt.
Spot on! I also did precisely that after getting my licence with a aerobatics instructor and insisted on some serious spin recovery training. Such a shame that it is no longer on the CAA syllabus.
read the book called the flying greek..true story ...what happened to spyros when he tried to bail out of his p 51 over france and could not .dead sticked it in from outside on the wing...ended up as human cannonball..far from the numbers........so sad about these two young adults..pray for them..godspeed..
Good question. The advice probably did not apply, but no way to know for sure as of yet. At any rate, it is a bit of wisdom and humility that every pilot might benefit from. I once accidentally ran a red light because I had just gotten involved in an argument with someone and drove off, then came to an intersection and mistook the cars turning right on red ahead of me as a green light for everyone in my lane.
Good advice, I always do the "two what-ifs". I can go two deep into a scenario without a problem then it's at least yellow risk and can be mitigated. "What if my engine fails at 400 feet, then I land in that field over there. What if the field is full of people picnicking, then I have this road over here". Also spin training is really a good training, especially if you're flying an old warbird. People forget they aren't as forgiving as modern (relatively modern) aircraft.
Another good one a pilot on Airplane Repo said was “Every time I go flying, I go with the knowledge that the plane will try to kill me!” That one carries a lot of weight!
Thank you Juan, this video was as always, right on the mark. I met Devyn and Hunter a couple of years ago at the WASP museum with my daughter. She was an amazing woman. We are so saddened by her loss.
Spin recovery is taught throughout our gliding syllabus here in Australia. Was taught in a glider that has a reputation for spin related fatalities. Monitor your airspeed, pay attention. Get appropriate training and Don't become a statistic.
Another Australian here I first learned to fly gliders in America when I was doing my degree in aerospace. My instructors made me practice turning stalls again and again and again until they were muscle memory. I learned in an S-33 which are very difficult to spin but our single seaters were S-12s and they will spin in a blink. So getting out of them BEFORE you got into a spin was a paramount part of our training. Years later I did my powered and also added to it an aerobatics ticket. I am adamant that at the VERY LEAST - ALL PILOTS of every type are formally taught *_Unusual Attitude Recovery Techniques._* No matter what people fly or what they like to do that's the sort of training that saves lives. The same goes for cars EVERY driver should a basic defensive driving course. Every boating person should do a basic survival at sea course.
I gave up riding after less then 2 years... it was never "fun" as you're always looking for issues with traffic, oil or sand patches on the roads, tailgaters, and all the other unforeseen hazards... I once had a bee hit my face shield and it got caught in the air vortex and ended up inside my shield still alive and flying around at 50mph... now that was an panic attack... LOL... I did pull over safely and it flew out... there were other close calls, mostly not my fault... and that was on the ground... I never even considered flying...
Juan Browne.... hands down this may be the best video you have done & it reflects so well on why you do this. Juan you are kind, objective and the quiet professional in the back of the room that brings experience & wisdom to your vocation. A vocation of aviation & a passion to make us safer pilots. BROVO ZULU!!! (I kept this short, long posts do not get the reads & I want this one heard. )🙏🤝👊
Well done Juan. With the outbreak of the Korean war, USAF flight training put 18 year old cadets right into the AT-6D as their first airplane. I knew a couple of instructors and they had a real job to do with a disciplined syllabus just as you described. Eventually the USAF acquired some Piper PA-18 aircraft for screening purposes. As an FYI, the accident rate at our local base in Greenville, Mississippi and eventually in Florida was quite low. Soon the AT-6 was replaced by the T-28. The T-34 was introduced as the screening and intro airplane before advancing to the T-28, but when we had to train pilots with what we had the AT-6 served us well. When the operation moved to Florida, the AT-6D was replaced by the AT-6G which was more like a "restored" version of the AT-6 while the D model was strictly an airframe just as delivered in the early 1940s. Thanks for showing the departure avoidance/spin recovery video. Exactly as I used to teach it back in the days when I was an active CFI.
@@Parkhill57lol Americans really do have a blank when it comes to anything that came before the Wright brothers. Aviation was hundreds of years old when the Wright flyer first flew.🙄🙄🙄
Without any doubt, your analysis is THE best on You Tube......I hate hearing that we have lost another pilot and another warbird but you expertly walk us through all these accidents......calmly and accurately....well done....
Aerobatic training is so important in the learning the boundaries of a plane. Just a few hours gives a lifetime of knowledge. Yep, spin training should not have been removed. It's so sad to lose an up and comer and a unique plane. As with other aviation accidents, it's up to us to learn and not repeat.
The sad thing about this accident is that every single lesson that she could have learned has been taught hundreds of thousands of times before. Aviation gained no new knowledge from this loss, poor preparedness and training led to the completely avoidable loss of a pilot and a lovely original warbird.
Juan, despite the sadness of the subject of this video, it was fun to learn you had been a USAF T-37 Instructor Pilot years ago. I didn't know that about you. I, too, was a T-37 IP at the now-closed Williams AFB east of Phoenix from 1978-83. Spins and spin prevents were second nature to us, as I'm sure they were to you. On one student training mission an engine flamed out DURING the spin. Suddenly we had TWO no-sh*t emergencies to deal with - the spin and the engine failure. Needless to say, that situation sure got my attention! 😮
I was a No Loss IP all 4.5 years! Even during the 1.5 years I was an Academic Instructor with the Student Sqdn., I was still Guest Help with No Loss. Don't recall a LTC Henny. Was he or she a 96th FTS CO? XO? (Must've been either before or after my time.) @@TGraysChannels
Yeah, that's kind of what I said at the time! I took over from the student and started the several-step spin recovery procedure from scratch (just to make sure we didn't accidentally omit a step). We'd already lost some altitude while the stud was flying, which meant our 10,000 ft minimum was approaching fast. (By 10,000' we had to be either recovered from the spin or else eject). That meant I knew I had only one shot at the spin recovery before we'd have to eject, so I made sure it was the best darned recovery ever. @@ChadDidNothingWrong
Last week I posted about how much the Warbirds at Oshkosh was an emotional thing for me, because my father was aircrew when he was in the Navy and he brought us to the Oshkosh airshow decades ago. Unfortunately he passed away a few years ago and I am unable to talk to him about it anymore. Much of the training he went through (and spoke of) was in SNJ's which I believe is the Navy version of the AT-6. Sad to hear about this incident.
Juan, thank you for the ‘Words to Live By’. I can’t imagine getting in to this career without the support of my father years ago. While he was not my instructor, he brought Naval Aviation and Pan Am experiences to the early days of my career as a student and then instructor. He thought I was crazy when I was teaching stall/spin and basic aerobatics at the 141 school I was working for at the time. My daughter has decided to follow in my footsteps and I now understand my father’s less than enthusiastic support of intentionally spinning airplanes. 😂 I frequently forward yours and other’s videos to my daughter and just hope that I can, with the help of you and the others in this community, impart enough knowledge to allow her to safely enjoy the incredibly fulfilling career that I have experienced. Thank you for your hard work!
I ASKED for spin training while working on my PP SEL many moons ago. We did 2 flights, 1 in a C150 and the other in a Tomahawk. Talk about very different spin characteristics. The 150 was easy to recover but the Tomahawk kinda tightened up on my and I did not have it recovered after the 3rd spin so I told the instructor to take it. We were up 6500' for that flight. I also got an hour in an AT6 Texan and he showed me how to do victory rolls and a loop and I remember how nimble the airplane was but it was certainly heavier than the 172 and the other light planes I was used to but I'm sure glad I got introduced to and performed stalls, spins and a couple aerobatic maneuvers early in my flying life. May those 2 rest in peace. Gone so young.
@@coldsamon Fun airplane but they're a little slippery in slow flight and they don't spin well. I haven't flown one in 30 years but I remember how they handled.
@@cynthiajendlebee1903 I was taught that 4000' was the minimum. We did it from 4 in the Cessna 150 and right around 6500' in the Tomahawk. I always learned that most stall/spin accidents occur around 1000' AGL in the traffic pattern.
As a retired pilot with 20,000hrs plus, I am at a loss as to why this young pilot was not able to cope with a spin situation like this, altitude wasn't an issue, unless there was another issue with the airplane it seems an unnecessary loss of life, here in New Zealand stall/spin recovery is an early part of basic training, I would have thought she would have had even more so especially in an AT-6, RIP to both of them
It’s difficult to put ourselves in those shoes, especially when we have 1,000’s and 1,000’s of hours. And while, yes, spin training is no longer ‘required’ here in the US for the first few certs, there are instructors that incorporate them into training. I never soloed anyone until they did at least one lesson on spin/stall awareness just so they could experience it and know exactly how it looks and feels. But you have to keep in mind that she wholeheartedly did everything she could to correct the situation with every skill and resource she had to work with - and that’s hard for us as professionals to remember of lower time pilots.
I would have been scared to fly that pile of junk into the middle of a lake at low altitude. In the Constellation, it was rare you landed with 4 engines. Too many moving parts in a radial.
Likely a combination of problems but I wouldn't doubt there was some kind of malfunction in the t6. Nata parked the t6s at the airport I work at and it seemed like everyday leading up to eaa one would have something go wrong after they launched for formation practice in the area.
Thanks Juan B! It is sad when we hear about seemingly preventable accidents like these, but you present them with such care, concern, and attention to detail for the positive learning aspect, that it truly shows your good heart. I may never get to meet you in person but I am truly grateful to be able to know you online, and to be able to learn from you. Cheers from Texas.
Learned to fly on the T 6 (Harvard) in the South African Air Force. Our sop for spin was if you haven’t recoverd by 9000’ (about 4000’ agl) you had to jump. The Harvard didn’t stall like a normal aircraft, she could flick inverted in a heartbeat, either left or right, but was easy to recover.
As an A&P w/ IA that worked on and flew T-6/SNJ aircraft for several years, I can assure you that one or more control cables failed. If the aircraft was indeed unrestored then the T-6 probably had the old cables that are extremely difficult to visually see the internal corrosion that the tinned steel control cables may have. The cable may look airworthy then one hard pull and the cable will fail and separate and nothing the pilot does will allow the aircraft to recover. If the aircraft had been updated with stainless steel cables then pilot error may have been the cause but some control failure had to occur with that much altitude to recover. My opinion
Helluva good point. She may have tried to recover the stall with trim, then torque rolled into the spin if she applied power too fast. Only a lot of experience may have got that plane back on the ground in a survivable attitude.
This is a good point about unrestored aircraft but what about the point made in the video about not entering a spin in the t6 ( snj ) below 10,000 feet. Yes it was a training manual stipulation bot in this case the spin started at 3000 agl. Plus 500 hours is quite a number towards being experienced. But another good point made in the video is the fact of less comprehnsive training compared to that in the past. Whatever the case, replace the control cables.
@@josephnason8770I think the commenter above is implying that whatever spin was observed on the ground was caused by a cable failure in the first place, not the other way around.
@@obamabigears734 No one needs to stall and spin. Everyone needs to practice stall prevention, learn AOA. There shouldn't be airspeed indicators in GA, only AOA indicators. Teach airspeed when you move up to jets 🙂
This is such a sad incident and, like so many, hits so close to home. I remember doing spin training back in 2000 and hope I have at least remembered the muscle memory. RIP Devin and Zach, such promising talent taken so young.
"...and get the boundary layer reattached ..." This! It is so important to get students to think aerodynamically. That is, rather than fixating on what to do with the controls, visualize how the air is passing over the aircraft during all flight regimes.
I was a kid in the early 1950s and remember a half dozen T-6 examples which were based at our local grass strip. After the end of the war, many of these aircraft were let loose on the general aviation pilot population at bargain basement prices. As a consequence, a lot of folks were sometimes hurt and unfortunately often killed in them. Though the name Trainer is applied to the T6, it is spoken in an entirely different language than would be associated with a familiar civilian trainer such as a 152, 140, or 172. I can remember some of the crash scenarios reported In the day. A hot dog pilot wishing to impress his earthbound audience with his warbird’s “Homesick Angel” climb performance after liftoff. Full power torque factor and a neglected slowly diminishing airspeed - crossed controls, the nose drops, and in six blinks of the eye, the show abruptly ends. Dan G. has a video of Devon’s arrival landing at Oshkosh. It was not confidence inspiring.
Same with motorcycles, esp sportbikes. you have to fill you bag of experience, before your bag of luck runs out. I thought I was a good defensive driver until I took up motorcycling, it really amps up your observation and defensive skills. any car can get you at any time, situational awareness at every moment.
As I recall from watching WWII training film's (videos) here on TH-cam, it is mentioned more than once that the T-6 is known as "the pilot maker" because of it's nasty tendency to bite the pilot if not handled correctly 100% of the time. Meaning you had to stay ahead of the airplane and use the correct procedures or it would get away from you in a heartbeat. Some of the instructor pilots in the film's even said that if you could fly the T-6 that you could fly anything (WWII aircraft inventory wise)
I instructed on the Texan ii and our spin recovery is the same as this. Our hard deck for recovery was 10'000 so we had to enter around 14,5 or 15. All students had to be very proficient at it.
Juan, I was fortunate years ago in the late 70s - early 80s - to have a friend who introduced me to Bill Kershner. I had a great time listening to Kershner and picking his brain. He, as you remember, was a very strong advocate of spin training for civilian private pilots and he taught all his students spins and recovery right along with stalls. He was always very disappointed that there was never a requirement for spin skills in civilian private pilot programs and required maneuvers. He was right then, and he's right now.
Interesting stat about fatalities during WWII training. My uncle was killed in combat training it an AT-6. A2A accident. My father went on to fly bomber escort in the P51B's, C's, and finally D's, out of RAF Bodney.
When aircrews flew 25 combat missions, they could return to the states. There they had to go into training squadrons to teach the next guys. So many got killed, that others volunteered to go back in combat, as it was safer.
I insisted on some spin training, but one of my instructors was an aerobatic pilot (owns his own Yak-52), and his goal was "let's have fun doing spins" rather than helping me understand spin avoidance. My point is: make sure you find the right instructor who understands what you're trying to achieve.
Man, it really seems like we've had a rash of less than ideally competent pilots lately, and they're decimating the fleet of vintage aircraft. What a shame. It seems to be that MUCH more thorough training is required than what is currently being done. Spin training no longer taught?? That's incredible!!
Back in 1991 there was an Aviation Expo held in Ida Grove Iowa that involved large scale model aircraft and full size aircraft. During a reenactment of the attack on Pearl Harbor, I watched a modified AT-6 stall and go in right across the runway from us. The NTSB report number is CHI91DCD02. What surprised me at the time was just how quickly the airplane spun and with the pattern they were flying during the demonstration, there was no chance for recovery. Your video of this accident brought all those memories flooding back, RIP pilots.
I did my spin training when I did my instructors rating. I really loved spinning. I do have a friend who was flying one and his passenger put it into a spin, luckily he knew what was going on and he recovered it very quickly
Thanks Juan for another excellent evaluation for us to learn. RIP to another flyer taken from us far too soon. Wonder if the back seat had rudder and stick controls. Possibly froze on controls and she couldn't control the plane. Sad day at Osh.
Wow, well done. Once again you handle a difficult subject with expertise and class. You are my number one go to for aviation safety and crash analysis. Thank you for what you do.
Excellent video Juan. Also the demo from Scott. You are both great people and are such valuable assets to the aviation community. I have a couple of thoughts from this sad situation. I am a CFI-I, and of course had to do the spin training/endorsement for instructors. I think its not near enough, but has been very valuable for me. As an instructor, I want students to make mistakes, and see the consequences and then how to recover. This can include departure from a stall and spin recovery. I like to do it with commercial students even though its not required. I always make sure to keep things safe. What I do with private students is when we are doing some VFR simulator training in a simulator that has motion, I use the opportunity to induce a spin in the simulator. You don't get the G force, but you do get motion and the visual of a real spin. I can teach them the recovery technique, which works. The procedure and control inputs should be similar. The other thing you can do, which I would only do with warning the student and explaining it before hand, is demonstrate the base to final overshoot cross control stall at low altitude in the simulator with motion on. They don't forget it. I also teach DMMS. Also, I believe that the reason the FAA did away with required spin training for private/commercial, was accidents. The last note, like has been mentioned by a number of others, each aircraft can have different spin characteristics, so it is important to know what those are. Anyway, thanks for all that you do for us.
Very sad to hear about this!!! My prayers and condolences to the families and friends of the two lost young people!!! I love these old war planes!!!! My grandfather was a ww2 vet and uncle was in the new airforce when it 1st formed and I've always loved these planes and I'm old enough to appreciate how long they've been around! I can't help but feel that as these old planes age the cases of accidents can only go up and I'm at the point I don't think I'd fly in 1 now.
@carlospar3727 Yes, I agree, and I understand that in this case, it wasn't a defect of fault of the airplane (at least none had been determined to be so far) and the pilot was new and had low hours in the plane.
i know(from videos) down and fast. but have never sat behind the stick, and can only imagine the feeling you get when you stop going straight. cant imagine the feeling when you know you cant correct. my heart goes out to these people and there familys and all i could say was they wouldnt of changed there minds, they loved all this. they went doing something they loved and i would of done the same if i was there. thankyou for your videos blancolirio! thankyou for your courage the pilots lost!
Apparently what some may consider a non-violent stall and a violent stall is quite different. Very early in my pilot career, one of my instructors and I went up in a plane neither of us had flown before - a Varga Kachina. It's a small tandem seater, low wing, fixed gear aircraft. You might say it resembles a baby brother T-6. Since I was flying with my instructor, when he told me we needed to get familiar with that airplane by conducting a few stall maneuvers in order to prevent an actual stall during landing, we took it up to about 6,000 feet AGL. Of course, I trusted my instructor since he had taught me lots of other things in other planes so I assumed he knew what we were getting into with this plane as well. I was wrong. After several attempts to do a power-off stall, the plane just dipped and flew straight. No big deal so he decided we needed to do a power-on stall. He told me to do it - full power on and pull back hard on the stick. I tried once and nothing. So he told me try again. This time I held it back a long time and just when he started to say to relax, the plane snapped inverted and all I saw was farmlands spinning above my head. He yells, "I got it!" so I immediately put both hands up where he could see them ( he was in back) and he recovers the plane from the spin. I don't remember how many times we spun but we lost a lot of altitude before we recovered. It reacted much more violently than either of us had expected, so we didn't do that again. Once was enough. So when that training manual says the stalls were not violent, I wonder if they were talking about a particular type of stall, because in that Varga, the power off and power on stalls were drastically different from each other.
So young and had so much potential life ahead of her but this young lady lived more in one lifetime then many. R.I.P. to her and condolences to any that knew her personally.
It has been interesting throughout my training that I was only ever taught spin prevention, with a bit of simulator practice on recovery. That is until now as I go for a CFI certificate which requires the endorsement for spin recovery, prevention, and instruction.
Because the data was pretty clear that spin training was killing more people then actual spins. You can still get the training, but now the core part is avoiding getting into a spin altogether.
@@TheOwenMajorThe skills spiral … spin training was killing people because the spin trainers were not sufficiently skilled at recovering from spins. Stopping the training was not the answer. More training was.
Dropping the stall/spin and recovery training was the worst thing the F.A.A. could ever have done. Back in the '60's, when I was flying, the stall/spin was my favorite maneuver and I would try to break out of the stall right at the break point. Thanks for the coverage, God Bless and stay safe.
The requirement to perform spins had been dropped well prior to the 60's and prior to the FAA's existence so it was not the FAA that dropped anything. So if you did any spin training it was voluntary and a pilot today can do the same thing. The FAA is not going to mandate spin training.
IMHO, the FAA position on spin training would be that there would be more accidents during the training than during inadvertent spin entry. Not sure I agree with that but they could have a point.
@@dougdrvrI’m speculating but so many aircraft are hard to get into a spin and base to final spins are generally nonrecoverable so maybe that was their thought process
@@arthurbrumagem3844 Thanks for hitting it on the head - it's one thing to be up at 4k or 6k AGL doing spins but as you said, the problem spins are by and large at very low altitudes and you can't train for that, you're going in at that point.
I learned how to fly in the late '90's in a J-3 Cub. My instructor had me doing spin recoveries after about six hours in the plane, and showed me how spins accelerate if not dealt with correctly. That's in a Cub, which is a real pussycat as far as spins are concerned. Later, I did some spins in a Citabria, and was shocked at how different the spin entry was. The thing seemed to snap roll over onto it's back. I can only imagine how a T-6 with a 600 horsepower engine and heavy airframe would get you disoriented. It's a shame about this accident, because she was obviously passionate about aviation and the presence of a passenger makes this a double tragedy. If you have never done spins, I highly recommend getting professional training in an appropriate aircraft.
"With each generation..." - you're not wrong Juan. PA-28 manual Aug 1964, 48 pages total, operating instructions 8 pages. It covered 3 variants: PA-28- 150-160-180. Aug 1982 the manual has grown to 257 pages, for one variant!
A few years ago, there used to be around ten Texans that flew formation out of Van Nuys during Memorial Day, Fourth of July, and the annual air show. The rumble of old radials was memorable as was the sight of old planes flying close formation at a low speed (compared to jets). As the years went by, the number of Texans has dwindled so much so that only two or three remain to fly formation.
this is a tricky machine at low speed, it has a 600 hp engine and at low airspeeds there's not enough roll authority to overcome the engine torque. Experienced T-6 pilots keep extra speed in the pattern. It can get you. Thanks JB.
Juan, thank you for the commendable job you do explaining these situations and/or accidents. I’m sure that we all know the old adage about learning from the mistakes of others… and from that just how important it is to practice so as not to come-a-cropper. Although I never solo’d a Harvard I’ve plenty of stick time in them and a bunch doing aerobatics. They will spin vigorously and to someone caught unawares or not well versed in avoiding spins this is one airplane that will surely bite if provoked. I’m Canadian and fortunately had the benefit of a full regime of stall spin training while learning to fly (40-odd years ago) and kept up my recurrent training in a way that included stall avoidance, incipient and fully developed spin recovery training. It has proven invaluable of the years! Interesting sidebar; learning aerobatics my instructor insisted that we include inverted spin identification and recovery. I did a bunch of aeros in a Zlin142 and it was a pretty aggressive spinner. It spun quite nose down and if one inadvertently entered inverted from let’s say mismanagement of a hammerhead turn it’s easy to end-up spinning inverted. I was quite surprised how much altitude was lost just figuring out whether it was a negative vs positive spin… food for thought.
I’ve personally flown with Devyn in and around the CAF. She was a fantastic pilot. I find it very hard to believe that she would have inadvertently entered a stall / spin over the lake on a calm VFR morning after such a docile climb out profile. There was a T6 that crashed in Wilkes Barre, PA a year or two ago due to a control cable failure. Considering this was an “unrestored” airplane, I think that’s a much more likely cause of the departure from controlled flight than pilot experience or training.
"We don't know what we don't know" ... definitely describes the overconfidence of a new pilot with only 500 hours. Those old warbirds aren't as forgiving as a Cessna 182. This tragic loss could have been prevented with more time in the left seat with an experienced instructor. Prayers for her husband and parents.
That was a WW2 training aircraft. It was designed for novice pilots. Which left seat would you fly it from? I doesn't have one. DMMS would have prevented this.
@lynnkramer1211 ... I tend to use "left seat" as a general term for flying the airplane. My apologies... I'll be more literal in the future. Thanks for the correction!
" new pilot " . " only 500 hours " l have the logbooks of my dad showing him qualifying for carrier landings one day with 8 total on the USS Sable in Lake Michigan in 1943 flying an SBD. I am sure those guys knew how to recover from a spin by the time they were deemed ready to land on a carrier.
I think not training stall spin recovery is stupid. When I got my license I did spin recovery every time I went flying. And I was taught how to recover right. Thankyou Butch.
I always wonder in these kinds of circumstances if the passenger might've unknowingly stomped on a rudder pedal, inducing a spin before the PIC could regain control. Aimee 'Rebel' Fiedler, F-16 pilot and commander of the Viper East Demo Team for the USAF, described a recent incident in which her passenger actually inadvertently rolled the aircraft (by placing their feet on the rudder pedals) during an orientation flight with a civilian in the back seat. She mentioned it was among the most terrifying things that ever happened to her as a fighter pilot.
THAT is a DEFINITE possibility also. A stall and even the incipient spin portion of the departure in a T-6 is a "thrilling" experience until you get used to it. If the pax got panicked and got on the controls, ESPECIALLY the rudder pedals, that person could have easily made the airplane unrecoverable. I remember very vividly that a very early part of my USN Primary training was focused on adjusting the rudder pedals so that NO ONE could lock their knee into a fully deflected pedal. This briefing item also was OFTEN revisited during training. It was a big enough concern in the KingAirs that ALL OF US (that didn't even know which "community" we would be continuing on to after Primary) had to sit in a KingAir's cockpit to check to see if the seat and pedals were capable of being adjusted to our body to ASSURE that neither knee could lock on the pedals (this was in 1984, and CNATRA had recently lost a KingAir, in which the investigation revealed a locked leg on a rudder pedal was most likely the cause). NO. ONE. CAN. OVERCOME. ANOTHER. PERSON'S. LOCKED. LEG, ON. A. FULLY. DEFLECTED. RUDDER. PEDAL. PERIOD. WHATEVER training this lovely young woman had received, I seriously doubt if the rudder pedal adjustments with an unfamiliar passenger had ever received any in-depth treatment. You guys that give rides OR INSTRUCTION in ANY airplane, but especially in tandem cockpits with installed dual controls, need to remain KEENLY AWARE of this small but INCREDIBLY SIGNIFICANT item, and make it part of your MANDITORY preflight familiarization and emergency procedures brief with your passenger, and even THEN, IF THEY PANIC ON YOU, it's gonna be a crapshoot for you!!!!!!!
@@complexdevice Seems just like in the John Denver case, some unusual unexpected >maneuver (*) or input like changing the fuel tanks ) happenings can quickly bring down an airplane...
@@cecilboatwright3555Your information is very eye opening and incredibly important. Thank you for being so detailed in your explanation and for your concern. I take my heli CFI check ride in a week. So this information will be used 100%. Airplane CFI will come shortly after. Genuinely, thank you for sharing.
Well done! Although so sad to understand the loss of life of this young pilot and passenger, you have presented an in depth understanding of what has happened. Entering the spin may have been caused by several unfortunate situations, but your walking the viewers through the steps of spin prevention and spin recovery which included the excellent video presentation rounded out a thorough understanding of the spin prevention and recovery. Thanks...
11:18 half roll encouraged before back pressure in inverted spin recovery sequence to prevent disappointment..... great to see Cpt. "Kablamo" Pete at the stick!
🙏🏽 Thank you Juan. Very tragic-to lose a young female pilot, with such an absolute LOVE for aviation and history. Such a long life ahead, so many skills to perfect…. 🕊️Condolences to family and friends. ~~ As always, Juan, love your attention to detail and facts 👏🏽.
I sometimes get the feeling that the warbird community is diametric to the museum community. I hear a lot of warbird guys say "Better than sitting in a museum", when what they really mean is "We'll fly all the flyable ones until they crash, because that's still better than sitting in a museum."
There's serious money in flyable warbirds (air shows, private flights, etc.) whereas museums make jack squat. Honestly I think they probably will eventually fly all of the remaining WW2 birds into the ground and then the "civilian warbird experiment" will be over. There's too much money to be made. Look at the age we live in, nobody cares about history unless it can be extensively monetized and then disposed of without consequence.
The whole warbird industry (and yes, it is an industry) should have been extensively investigated and re-regulated after the Dallas disaster. If it can't be done internally, then let the Friendly Aviation Association do the dirty work. Truth is nobody cares about these planes beyond their dollar value as entertainment.
I am relatively new to boating. That bell curve applies to boating as well. I have made a few rookie mistakes. A couple really DUMB ones. Obviously not at 8,000 AGL but dumb just the same. I learn new skills every time I go out and how to manage the situation as it unfolds. (I fly as well, not part of this communication) As Juan explained, there is a steep learning curve with every venture that we aspire to. Keep you head about you, learn EVERYTHING you can about your craft, in this case spin recovery. Enjoy your craft. But most importantly, be safe. Than includes all the knowledge you can acquire. Rest in Peace Devon. May we all learn from this. Happy flying and happy boating!
Good afternoon Ron, and congratulations on your relatively new and fabulously expensive hobby. Former family business commercial boater and salvage diver here who raised a lot of boats sunk by inept yachtsmen. While it was easy for us to say unkind things about the recreational boaters, it was always a wonderful site when a recreational boater was practicing docking in various unused locations to build their competence. Practicing docking and maneuvering is great fun, and when done right is very easy on the boat. Most important tip about entering or leaving a slip; the engine(s) never need to be above idle, and neutral is just fine if the boat is slowly going the correct direction. With a little practice, at idle you can land like a real pro and not cause much damage when you goof up. All the best youtube "docking fails" type videos involve more power than idle. You can land way too slow, and smart people will say; "Hey, that guy is pretty good". Have a great weekend!
Thanks Juan for another informative video, and for your great advice from an experienced aviator, who I have tremendous respect for. It's always a tragedy when we lose a fellow pilot, especially one as young as Devyn. God bless her.
Amelia Earhart was enthusiastic as well, and she wasn't that good of a pilot despite all the media attention of the era. We know where that landed her.
Chills at the end there Juan 😥. Nicely done. My takeaway is what Scott Perdue said "Don't go to those dark places in the first place" and "Spin recovery won't save you in the circuit". A sad loss indeed.
Be interesting to know the date of the last on the scales weight and balance. Glad my instructor was a grumpy old WWII pilot who would not tolerate sloppy flying or off centerline landings.
In South Africa spin training was part of the PPL training and was practised until the Instructor was satisfied before your first solo. Terrified at first as the D.H. Chipmunk had quite a violent flick as it stalled and recovery was initiated before maximum of three rotations as spin started to flatten. Later modification had anti-spin strakes fitted just forward of the horizontal stabilizer to keep the tail up preventing flat spins. Used to go into the g/f area and line up on a road and practise spin recovery accuracy four or five times repetitively for fun. Well this saved my life about ten years later while doing cropspraying. Had just pulled up after a spraying run and was at about 150 feet commencing a right downwind turn when my engine suddenly failed. My airpeed was low due to the pull up and having no time I was quickly checking where I was going down. A recently ploughed land across the furrows. No time or choice to maneuver. As I checked airspeed I saw that it was dropping past 62 mph and almost immediately the Pawnee flicked into a left hand incipient and pitched nose down. I immediately recognised what was happening and without even thinking kicked full opposite rudder and pushed the joystick forward to unstall the wings. I was now nose down with the ploughed furrows looking the size of the Grand Canyon. Immediately pulled back to avoid a nose down crash and also to get my tail down as low as possible to prevent digging in to the furrows and flipping upside down. Felt the tailwheel hitting first and then the mains. Aircraft stopped very quickly after tail elevated to where I thought I was going onto my back but then fortunately fell back onto the tailwheel. I abandoned aircraft and on closer inspection found that the impact had caused the aircraft to hit the insecticide pump on the field ripping it out, buckling the dump gate, ripping the left hand spray boom out. That was the extent of the damage. Flew the aircraft out off a road parallel to the field after putting the damaged pump in the hopper and tying up the spray boom after mechanic had cleaned out contaminated fuel and filters. Thank God for Mr. Piper and his nice fat wings.
When my sister taught me to drive, we went a large empty parking lot during a snowfall to learn “spin-out recovery”. That saved butt more than once. “Perfect practice makes perfect.” Bill Belichick
Spin training instinctively increases your awareness of what not to do, especially in the pattern. You learn to keep the ball centered at all times while maneuvering and airspeed management. Besides performing spins is fun and connects you more with the machine, don't break the aeronautic rules and it won't break you. It's like people purchasing high performance cars without experiencing the full capability of their mount by training at a racetrack, airplanes are the same, you need to experience everything it is capable of performing. In either case you become less of a passenger and more of an operator..
I've been a pilot for 44 years now. I've had the blessing and good fortune to fly a couple warbirds over the years. I grew up in an aviation family. When I started learning to fly (age 9) I was taught by an old, grumpy/frumpy "Stick and Rudder Man". Spins and aerobatics were just part of the teaching curriculum. Why do I mention all this? Having flown the AT-6, it takes some stick and rudder skills and total RESPECT of the limitations of the aircraft. Don't know about you, but I'm sick to death of hearing about all the stall/spin accidents we seem to see almost on a daily basis now. Flying these "Round Engine" birds is NOT microsoft flight simulator. There is no reset button, folks. I STRONGLY have always felt that removing stall/spin demonstration and recovery techniques from the requirements to get a license was a huge mistake and the body count proves it. In this particular tragedy, it's so sad to see a young life taken out like this. Hopefully, it will wake some folks up, to go out and get spin training. Even better, basic aerobatics. I'm glad I did - otherwise I would have been pushing up daisies a long time ago.
Spin training was killing more people than spins, and there is no evidence that the number of deaths due to spins has gone up since. Doing spin training with an experienced instructor, in an aircraft that easily exits spins is great. But doing spin training with a 25 year old instructor in an old 172 is a bad idea.
@@TheOwenMajor Maybe, maybe not? It seems like there are so many loss of control accidents anymore, that are continually being proven that the pilot got behind the airplane and didn't have the skill-set to get him/herself out of trouble. I can't help but wonder if maybe this accident was a result of "hey, let's have some fun and roll the airplane". Will never know, of course if that happened, but I do wonder how things went south, in what should have been a routine departure and flight home......RIP
@@camtscott Would more training on how to avoid getting into a stall in the first place been more valuable? I don't see how anyone can point to spin training being the issue. The simple retort is she obviously forgot her training on how to avoid spin situations. Every pilot is trained to watch their airspeed, energy is life. If she failed that basic principle, no amount of spin training would help.
It’s tragic. I went to school with her husband Hunter and knew him. We were both learning aviation together. He’s always had a passion for warbirds and his wife Devyn did as well. They were doing so much for the aviation community and the warbirds community in particular. They were both excellent and experienced pilots who knew what they were doing; just goes to show that it can happen to any of us and we can all get safer. Great analysis as always
I'm going to be honest ,the first spin I experienced in an aircraft it was all I could do is brace my arms on the dash and the corner of windscreen because I was absolutely terrified. The more we did the more comfortable I got until I could actually recover the aircraft myself. It took several attempts before I could come close to do what I was supposed to be doing. This may NOT be the case for everyone but it was for me and I just wanted to share it. Just like Scott said get some training even if it's not a requirement because it may just save your life .
It was similar for me, though not as extreme. I was crazy for aviation, seen videos of spins, read the books, so when my instructor offered to demonstrate a spin a few hours into my training I was all for it. To my shock, as soon as the nose fell below the horizon, I felt myself freeze, probably looking like a deer in headlights, and I didn't unfreeze until my instructor brought the nose back up to the horizon in this very benign Cessna 172 one turn spin. I had my training focus on spins after that to the point where I was totally comfortable while in the spin and later I got aerobatic training.
I was told by a high time warbird pilot, “If you ever feel comfortable flying the T6, you should stop flying it. It’s designed to train fighter pilots, it should never be a plane you’re comfortable with.”
Not seeing or hearing anyone talk about the likely circumstances that lead the loss of control I point out the following. I flew the warbird show on Monday and prior to the show we were assigned to hold over the east portion of the lake at 3200 MSL. Because of the smoke and haze it was extremely difficult to fly because there was zero horizon especially when facing away from the shoreline. The haze literally blended right into the water with no definable horizon. In the debrief, several of the pilots in our flight complained about near vertigo and spatial disorientation during the hold. I would respectfully submit the accident pilots likely suffered the same effects from the environment. Apologies in advance for not reading all comments, I'm sure there were comments very insightful to the subject. God Speed to the two of them.
Thank you Terry.
Scott makes that stuff look easy and explains it so calmly. What a pro
That's what she said.
Young pilot with 200 hours shouldn't have been in a T6
And he has that smooth Bob Ross delivery; I could listen to him describe flying for hours.
You have no idea what you’re talking about. Everyone has different training coming up through the ranks. You just like everyone else has no idea exactly what happened.
In the late 1950’s when my father was stationed at RCAF Whitehorse, Yukon, he joined the local flying club as an instructor. He was teaching a doctor to fly. An intelligent and capable person. Passed ground school no problem, was proficient in handling the aircraft in all things BUT stall spin recovery. Dad took him up numerous times putting the aircraft into a stall spin, showed and explained how to recover. Then he would let the Doc try and every time the Doc did the wrong thing. They would debrief after landing, the Doc understood what he had to do but for whatever reason couldn’t do it. After 3 or 4 weekends of this Dad threw in the towel and apologized to the Doc and flat out told him that unless he can demonstrate proficient spin stall recovery he could not let him solo and get his pilots license. I think this type of training and licensing requirement should be introduced all recreational pilots.
I'm seriously blown away that it isn't. That just seems like an absolute basic skill a pilots has to prove and demonstrate they have the ability to recover, if not no license. Why is it not like this anymore??
" unless he can demonstrate proficient spin stall recovery he could let him solo"
I think you meant "not" let him.
@@beer1for2break3fast4 yes that’s what I meant to say! Thanks for catching that. I would correct it but I can’t figure out how to?
@@dougtarbet6193 There's 3 dots on the right of text, select them with mouse, then pick edit. Easier than spin training.
Bah! Solo is a few laps around the field. Hell, most students don't even know how a carburetor works yet. Spins are advanced training.
Twenty years ago i flew the T6 for five years giving acro rides, simulated dog fights and such. The T6 is a beautifully flying aircraft, it is heavy and energy management is critical. Like you stated, it typically drops the right wing and if the stall is "accelerated" that wing drop is pronounced. If in a right turn, you are inverted in no time, but simply unload the wing, continue the roll, and you end up right side up in no time. When setting up our dog fights, we would always start with left turns initially. With "good" pilots or sometimes pilots with too much attitude, we would go right/right set up and we would typically end up executing the above described maneuver. For a spin, once again it takes 3 turns to establish fully developed spin, the nose comes up as the aircraft rotates through the direction of flight, this would explain the decrease is descent rate. Saying all this, you have to force the aircraft into a spin, if you release the back pressure after initial upset, the aircraft simply starts to fly again, in whatever attitude it ends up. I started to fly the T6 with close to 3000 hrs with glider acro, glider towing, Pitts competition aerobatics, 1500 tail wheel time, lots of 310 time (about the same weight as the T6). For this lady, in my opinion, the T6 was too much airplane, too early on and her training didn't demonstrate what happens at the edges of the envelope.
Please share your discussion with details .Thanks again for your efforts.
But what could have caused the airplane to stall ?
@blancolirio--. Don't quite understand the "let's discuss' statement. I am a bit of a dinosaur.....Need some explanation of the procedure.
@@mvd4436 Exceeded critical angle of attack or simply pulled to hard for the amount of airspeed/energy the aircraft had. When flying our rides including the dog flights, we flew at low power settings, yep that saved on fuel but it also reduced airspeeds which allowed the airplane to stall at lower g loading. After all we were flying aging airplanes and we did all we could to go easy on them. Our aerobatics also were "ugly" from astatic point of view, but we minimized g loading of the airframe.
I thought of your question bit more and there is possibly another factor here. I have flown around 4000, "commercial", hands on, instructional rides. Conducting such a flight requires additional and somewhat unique skills. In addition to flying the airplane the pic also becomes an "entertainer", the pilot now possibly has additional set of requirements for a successful, entertaining flight. In our case it was a basic flying lesson, few loops and rolls (demonstrated and then flown by the pax), running 3 video cameras (not pointing them into the sun and such), sometimes quick forming up with the other T6, not having the pax throw up........all in 30 min flight. I know this was not a 'commercial" type of a ride, but what was the pax "pressure', if any, placed on the pic?
Started flying the T6 with 0 hours… but military. If you struggled you were washed. Lot’s of stall, spin and aerobatics training.
I am a retired Naval aviator and instrument flight instructor. We taught Naval aviator students how to prevent and recover from stalls and spins under IFR conditions (no visual information, only instruments.) Whatever can happen, will happen. We were also told that 500 hours of flight time was our most dangerous period for accidents, because we thought we were good by that time, but we were not as good as we thought we were!
It’s been a few years since my T34C days (1983) , and I am trying to remember what altitude were started them at. It seems like it was higher than 3,800 feet.
I remember doing spin training in the T-2C Buckeye during intermediate jet training in Kingsville, TX back in 1979 when I was in the Marines. They wouldn’t allow us to spin the TA-4J Skyhawk because they said it tended to get in a flat spin. Fun times and memories.
I'm not a pilot but imagine recovering from a spin on instruments alone must be very disorientating!
I once got into an inadvertent spin in a T6 when practicing aerobatics…wasn’t as high as I’d have liked to have been either. In the UK the T6 is not cleared for spinning, but I was current in spinning in a Pitts S2B and a Christen Eagle. The spin accelerated viciously when I made the spin recovery inputs - it was a shock, but I knew the inputs I made were correct. It then recovered. It would have been easy to get confused and make incorrect inputs. This was a tragic loss and a reminder how important it is to keep current in stall/spin recovery techniques.
In 1970 I was taking flying lessons in a C-172. We went out on what was to be a standard practice day including lots of stalls. As we started climbing to 5500' my instructor told me that he was forbidden to teach spins. But, he could, and did, explain how to get into and out of a spin. At 5500', he pulled the throttle back. As we stalled, he stepped on the right rudder and put us into a spin. He pulled us out at 5000'. He then told me to take us back to 5500' and it was my turn. We did about 10 spins. I found I enjoyed them. It was fun to lose about 1000'-1500' and watch the ground below. BUT, the C-172 is a tremendously forgiving aircraft. Spins should be taught from the get-go.
Absolutely. If you check out other channels as well, it's over and over again stall/spin/aircraft gettting into an unstable configuration and no recovery. The thing about stall ( and spin ) training is that it needs to be mandatory as if you have no training at all, it's game over almost every time. You have to do things that your primitive brain tells you make it worse and that only comes with training, IMO. Book learning does not translate to action when you are panicking.
Imagine the terror of getting into a deadly situation and not having been taught the simple steps to save your own life.
A perfectly good airplane should never crash.
You will scare student pilots off to another airport doing spins too early. I was a flight instructor in light aircraft and I never taught spins. Everybody passed that I sent to examiner of their choice. I told the students to seek a professional firm in Flying magazine (back in the 80s) to learn all the nuances of spins and how to get out of them by training for three or four days with people who do it for a living in a Citabria or some other similar type of aircraft.
My personal recovery was so fast in the spin, that I stayed out of trouble. I like to get out of trouble quicker than I got into it. That's why I am old now, up in years, so to speak. The debate over spins will never end and has been raging since the 1950s. Most examiners don't like doing spins with an applicant anyway.
@@dashriprock4308 It'd be up to the instructor to decide when it was the right time. He also forbade me to do them on my own. The C-172 is a great plane to learn spins. It is extremely forgiving. It doesn't like being in a spin. I can not see any reason for it to be included in an exam.
@@dashriprock4308 I suppose it needn’t be mandatory, but it should be commonly offered. Just like defensive driving is not required to obtain a driving permit.
My 141 flight school instructors demonstrated spins, but that was more than a few years ago.
Juan-I returned from Oshkosh on Thursday. It was so sad to hear the news of this crash and the other later that day, but your voice always brings encouragement for everyone to take these events and learn from them. I appreciate that as a 65 year old student pilot.
Juan, the calm and informed demeanor with which you are able to inform and educate us while honoring the contribution and memories of those who aspired to achieve in the face of great danger is admirable!
He’s a very experienced airline pilot. His job description is to remain calm. I follow him because he understands air tragedies because of his many years of aviation experience. He was a very good instructor because of his calm and measured approach to flying. You don’t instill confidence in a new pilot by yelling at them.
Pete is very lucky to have Juan as his dad.
That bell curve of pilot accidents actually applies outside aviation. I've seen the same bell graph for tradecraft accidents. The same rule of thumb applies where a *brand new* person is so safe they are scared to _do anything_. Then they learn the ropes and feel like they know where the edges of the safty envelope are, and they find out fast they're not right. And it's not always knowing the correct procedure, but having the gut instinct for when it applies. I've been a welder for about 7 years now, and seeing the new crop of employees making the same dumb mistakes and hearing myself say the same things I was told when I started... It kinda makes you appreciate institutonal knowledge.
I had a cut-off wheel explode on me, but not 5 minutes before, I had started to make the cut and literally said out loud to myself "well, let's not get hurt today at least". When it let go and bounce off my face shield, I just sat there a little startled and very impressed.
Well said. I cut my thumb deeply on a band saw when I got confident and sloppy while cutting wedges,
mind glazed over with repetition.
On a related note having watched a bunch of tree cutting fail videos I now spend 20 minutes just circling and reading a tree before I touch it with a saw to make sure I have thought out every possible way it could go wrong to the best of my ability.
One of the best pieces of wisdom I ever heard was from a pilot who said:
“every day I approach my aircraft
looking for reasons not to fly that day”
Mr. Blanco said it also applies to any endeavor or career path you choose
I don't think people are taught safe/defensive driving techniques anymore, either...I have noticed that so, so many people...most people maybe, as such VERY poor drivers nowadays...I blame driver training, and all the nanny features that make people "safe", and in the process, poor drivers...I think younger drivers aren't taught, and are completely reliant on the vehicle features and technology, focused on the HDTV on the dash instead of what is actually going on around them...and older drivers are sometimes overwhelmed by the technology and get confused or distracted...plus, making vehicles with such poor visibility out of them the driver feels isolated from the world outside...I sure hope this kind of thing doesn't happen with aircraft and pilots. I still think you should be required to do your driving test on a vehicle with a manual transmission to get your license..a manual transmission REQUIRES that you be fully engaged with the driving process...
@@dyer2cycleDefensive driving is not and never has been part of the official curriculum anywhere, ever. Whether teaching it is a good idea is an entirely separate question.
@@Mr.Thermistor7228 doesn't mean it's not worth repeating. It's about safty, redundancy comes with the territory
As an indicator of how important it is to know the technique in advance, rather than trying to figure it out intuitively in real time, early aviators considered spins to be absolutely unrecoverable. The recovery technique was eventually discovered completely by accident, when a pilot attempting to bail out inadvertantly stood on a pedal while trying to climb out.
When I was training in the UK in the late 90's, the incipient spin was mandatory (after a demonstration from the instructor), but only the demonstration was mandatory for the fully developed spin. I thought the choice to actually fly it myself was a no-brainer, because if it was ever going to happen to me I wanted the first time to be with the safety net of somebody I'd just seen recover one sitting next to me. I would urge anybody that hasn't done one yet to hire an instructor and a nice, docile trainer (mine was an Aerobat) for an hour, and get it under your belt.
Spot on! I also did precisely that after getting my licence with a aerobatics instructor and insisted on some serious spin recovery training. Such a shame that it is no longer on the CAA syllabus.
read the book called the flying greek..true story ...what happened to spyros when he tried to bail out of his p 51 over france and could not .dead sticked it in from outside on the wing...ended up as human cannonball..far from the numbers........so sad about these two young adults..pray for them..godspeed..
Best wisdom I ever heard from a pilot:
“Every time I approach my aircraft,
I look carefully within and without for reasons not to fly that day.”
What difference would that have made for this flight?
Good question.
The advice probably did not apply, but no way to know for sure as of yet. At any rate, it is a bit of wisdom and humility that every pilot might benefit from.
I once accidentally ran a red light because I had just gotten involved in an argument with someone and drove off, then came to an intersection and mistook the cars turning right on red ahead of me as a green light for everyone in my lane.
Works well for motorcycles, too.
Good advice, I always do the "two what-ifs". I can go two deep into a scenario without a problem then it's at least yellow risk and can be mitigated. "What if my engine fails at 400 feet, then I land in that field over there. What if the field is full of people picnicking, then I have this road over here".
Also spin training is really a good training, especially if you're flying an old warbird. People forget they aren't as forgiving as modern (relatively modern) aircraft.
Another good one a pilot on Airplane Repo said was “Every time I go flying, I go with the knowledge that the plane will try to kill me!”
That one carries a lot of weight!
Thank you Juan, this video was as always, right on the mark. I met Devyn and Hunter a couple of years ago at the WASP museum with my daughter. She was an amazing woman. We are so saddened by her loss.
Spin recovery is taught throughout our gliding syllabus here in Australia. Was taught in a glider that has a reputation for spin related fatalities. Monitor your airspeed, pay attention. Get appropriate training and Don't become a statistic.
Ditto in the UK, I maintain that any pilot who starts on gliders is a far more capable pilot when they progress to powered flight.
Glider pilots are the best
Had to do it to earn my private pilot license in Canada (back in the 80's)
Canada too, it's in our PPL requirements
Another Australian here
I first learned to fly gliders in America when I was doing my degree in aerospace. My instructors made me practice turning stalls again and again and again until they were muscle memory. I learned in an S-33 which are very difficult to spin but our single seaters were S-12s and they will spin in a blink. So getting out of them BEFORE you got into a spin was a paramount part of our training.
Years later I did my powered and also added to it an aerobatics ticket. I am adamant that at the VERY LEAST - ALL PILOTS of every type are formally taught *_Unusual Attitude Recovery Techniques._* No matter what people fly or what they like to do that's the sort of training that saves lives.
The same goes for cars EVERY driver should a basic defensive driving course.
Every boating person should do a basic survival at sea course.
My father's words of wisdom (sixty years ago) to me on motorcycle riding..."You'll be alright until you think you know how to ride" Yup!
Yup, my dad, a very experienced cross country rider from the '30's told me, "You can have a lot of fun, but you can get really hurt."
I gave up riding after less then 2 years... it was never "fun" as you're always looking for issues with traffic, oil or sand patches on the roads, tailgaters, and all the other unforeseen hazards... I once had a bee hit my face shield and it got caught in the air vortex and ended up inside my shield still alive and flying around at 50mph... now that was an panic attack... LOL... I did pull over safely and it flew out... there were other close calls, mostly not my fault... and that was on the ground... I never even considered flying...
Juan Browne.... hands down this may be the best video you have done & it reflects so well on why you do this. Juan you are kind, objective and the quiet professional in the back of the room that brings experience & wisdom to your vocation. A vocation of aviation & a passion to make us safer pilots. BROVO ZULU!!! (I kept this short, long posts do not get the reads & I want this one heard. )🙏🤝👊
Couldn't say it any better myself!!
Well done Juan. With the outbreak of the Korean war, USAF flight training put 18 year old cadets right into the AT-6D as their first airplane. I knew a couple of instructors and they had a real job to do with a disciplined syllabus just as you described. Eventually the USAF acquired some Piper PA-18 aircraft for screening purposes. As an FYI, the accident rate at our local base in Greenville, Mississippi and eventually in Florida was quite low. Soon the AT-6 was replaced by the T-28. The T-34 was introduced as the screening and intro airplane before advancing to the T-28, but when we had to train pilots with what we had the AT-6 served us well. When the operation moved to Florida, the AT-6D was replaced by the AT-6G which was more like a "restored" version of the AT-6 while the D model was strictly an airframe just as delivered in the early 1940s. Thanks for showing the departure avoidance/spin recovery video. Exactly as I used to teach it back in the days when I was an active CFI.
@blancolirio--. FYI This is a fake spam account
The comments on this channel are outstanding. The knowledge viewer like yourself share are not just interesting but valuable. Thanks
Did lots of spin training in Aronca. My instructor was Charlie McCallister. His license was signed by Orville Wright.
The joke was, that Orville survived the first air disaster in aviation history, because Army Lt. Selfridge broke his fall.
Can't do much better than that my friend.Nice.
@@Parkhill57 lol
@@Parkhill57lol Americans really do have a blank when it comes to anything that came before the Wright brothers. Aviation was hundreds of years old when the Wright flyer first flew.🙄🙄🙄
@@Jabber-ig3iw Yea, but none of them were two place, with a 40 HP engine.
Without any doubt, your analysis is THE best on You Tube......I hate hearing that we have lost another pilot and another warbird but you expertly walk us through all these accidents......calmly and accurately....well done....
Thanks for explaining the significance of the data available in this tragic crash.
Thanks Juan Brown for what you do so well in keeping point on real information close to your experience.
Aerobatic training is so important in the learning the boundaries of a plane. Just a few hours gives a lifetime of knowledge. Yep, spin training should not have been removed. It's so sad to lose an up and comer and a unique plane. As with other aviation accidents, it's up to us to learn and not repeat.
Especially when so many accidents, usually leading to death are because of inadvertent spins.
As is skid-pad experience in learning the limits of an automobile... even if done on an unsanctioned basis : )
The sad thing about this accident is that every single lesson that she could have learned has been taught hundreds of thousands of times before. Aviation gained no new knowledge from this loss, poor preparedness and training led to the completely avoidable loss of a pilot and a lovely original warbird.
Juan, despite the sadness of the subject of this video, it was fun to learn you had been a USAF T-37 Instructor Pilot years ago. I didn't know that about you. I, too, was a T-37 IP at the now-closed Williams AFB east of Phoenix from 1978-83. Spins and spin prevents were second nature to us, as I'm sure they were to you. On one student training mission an engine flamed out DURING the spin. Suddenly we had TWO no-sh*t emergencies to deal with - the spin and the engine failure. Needless to say, that situation sure got my attention! 😮
John Black? No Loss? Rain Dance?
Lt. Col Henny?
Damn
I was a No Loss IP all 4.5 years! Even during the 1.5 years I was an Academic Instructor with the Student Sqdn., I was still Guest Help with No Loss. Don't recall a LTC Henny. Was he or she a 96th FTS CO? XO? (Must've been either before or after my time.) @@TGraysChannels
Yeah, that's kind of what I said at the time! I took over from the student and started the several-step spin recovery procedure from scratch (just to make sure we didn't accidentally omit a step). We'd already lost some altitude while the stud was flying, which meant our 10,000 ft minimum was approaching fast. (By 10,000' we had to be either recovered from the spin or else eject). That meant I knew I had only one shot at the spin recovery before we'd have to eject, so I made sure it was the best darned recovery ever. @@ChadDidNothingWrong
Last week I posted about how much the Warbirds at Oshkosh was an emotional thing for me, because my father was aircrew when he was in the Navy and he brought us to the Oshkosh airshow decades ago. Unfortunately he passed away a few years ago and I am unable to talk to him about it anymore. Much of the training he went through (and spoke of) was in SNJ's which I believe is the Navy version of the AT-6. Sad to hear about this incident.
Juan, thank you for the ‘Words to Live By’. I can’t imagine getting in to this career without the support of my father years ago. While he was not my instructor, he brought Naval Aviation and Pan Am experiences to the early days of my career as a student and then instructor. He thought I was crazy when I was teaching stall/spin and basic aerobatics at the 141 school I was working for at the time. My daughter has decided to follow in my footsteps and I now understand my father’s less than enthusiastic support of intentionally spinning airplanes. 😂 I frequently forward yours and other’s videos to my daughter and just hope that I can, with the help of you and the others in this community, impart enough knowledge to allow her to safely enjoy the incredibly fulfilling career that I have experienced. Thank you for your hard work!
I ASKED for spin training while working on my PP SEL many moons ago. We did 2 flights, 1 in a C150 and the other in a Tomahawk. Talk about very different spin characteristics. The 150 was easy to recover but the Tomahawk kinda tightened up on my and I did not have it recovered after the 3rd spin so I told the instructor to take it. We were up 6500' for that flight. I also got an hour in an AT6 Texan and he showed me how to do victory rolls and a loop and I remember how nimble the airplane was but it was certainly heavier than the 172 and the other light planes I was used to but I'm sure glad I got introduced to and performed stalls, spins and a couple aerobatic maneuvers early in my flying life. May those 2 rest in peace. Gone so young.
Traumahawk
Yes. I asked for spin training when I was learning. Stall/spins accidents are a high percentage of total fatalities.
Flew a traumahawk yesterday. A nice plane but with some very unfortunate spin characteristics.
@@coldsamon Fun airplane but they're a little slippery in slow flight and they don't spin well. I haven't flown one in 30 years but I remember how they handled.
@@cynthiajendlebee1903 I was taught that 4000' was the minimum. We did it from 4 in the Cessna 150 and right around 6500' in the Tomahawk. I always learned that most stall/spin accidents occur around 1000' AGL in the traffic pattern.
Thanks for covering this tragic event respectfully and providing some important insight into aircraft spins.
As a retired pilot with 20,000hrs plus, I am at a loss as to why this young pilot was not able to cope with a spin situation like this, altitude wasn't an issue, unless there was another issue with the airplane it seems an unnecessary loss of life, here in New Zealand stall/spin recovery is an early part of basic training, I would have thought she would have had even more so especially in an AT-6, RIP to both of them
It’s difficult to put ourselves in those shoes, especially when we have 1,000’s and 1,000’s of hours. And while, yes, spin training is no longer ‘required’ here in the US for the first few certs, there are instructors that incorporate them into training. I never soloed anyone until they did at least one lesson on spin/stall awareness just so they could experience it and know exactly how it looks and feels. But you have to keep in mind that she wholeheartedly did everything she could to correct the situation with every skill and resource she had to work with - and that’s hard for us as professionals to remember of lower time pilots.
I would have been scared to fly that pile of junk into the middle of a lake at low altitude. In the Constellation, it was rare you landed with 4 engines. Too many moving parts in a radial.
Likely a combination of problems but I wouldn't doubt there was some kind of malfunction in the t6.
Nata parked the t6s at the airport I work at and it seemed like everyday leading up to eaa one would have something go wrong after they launched for formation practice in the area.
@@lasagnapotato3853That’s some very telling insight.
@@Parkhill57’that pile of junk’ comment is unsubstantiated. Keep it professional, Bub.
Thanks Juan B! It is sad when we hear about seemingly preventable accidents like these, but you present them with such care, concern, and attention to detail for the positive learning aspect, that it truly shows your good heart. I may never get to meet you in person but I am truly grateful to be able to know you online, and to be able to learn from you. Cheers from Texas.
Learned to fly on the T 6 (Harvard) in the South African Air Force. Our sop for spin was if you haven’t recoverd by 9000’ (about 4000’ agl) you had to jump. The Harvard didn’t stall like a normal aircraft, she could flick inverted in a heartbeat, either left or right, but was easy to recover.
As an A&P w/ IA that worked on and flew T-6/SNJ aircraft for several years, I can assure you that one or more control cables failed. If the aircraft was indeed unrestored then the T-6 probably had the old cables that are extremely difficult to visually see the internal corrosion that the tinned steel control cables may have. The cable may look airworthy then one hard pull and the cable will fail and separate and nothing the pilot does will allow the aircraft to recover.
If the aircraft had been updated with stainless steel cables then pilot error may have been the cause but some control failure had to occur with that much altitude to recover. My opinion
Helluva good point. She may have tried to recover the stall with trim, then torque rolled into the spin if she applied power too fast. Only a lot of experience may have got that plane back on the ground in a survivable attitude.
Not sure why you suggest cable failure as un-restored does no mean un-maintained.
This is a good point about unrestored aircraft but what about the point made in the video about not entering a spin in the t6 ( snj ) below 10,000 feet. Yes it was a training manual stipulation bot in this case the spin started at 3000 agl. Plus 500 hours is quite a number towards being experienced. But another good point made in the video is the fact of less comprehnsive training compared to that in the past. Whatever the case, replace the control cables.
@@josephnason8770I think the commenter above is implying that whatever spin was observed on the ground was caused by a cable failure in the first place, not the other way around.
yes indeed. This is why non destructive testing is so important in avionics. Corrosion is the slow but silent killer
Great job as always Juan, really struck by how calming Scott’s voice is - wise words
RIP Devin. 100hrs into my PPL (yeah i know), I definitely need to do spin training. Thank you Juan
-Rolando
@@obamabigears734 No one needs to stall and spin. Everyone needs to practice stall prevention, learn AOA. There shouldn't be airspeed indicators in GA, only AOA indicators. Teach airspeed when you move up to jets 🙂
This is such a sad incident and, like so many, hits so close to home. I remember doing spin training back in 2000 and hope I have at least remembered the muscle memory. RIP Devin and Zach, such promising talent taken so young.
Very sad situation, but it's nice to see you over here, Noel. I love both of your channels.
"...and get the boundary layer reattached ..." This! It is so important to get students to think aerodynamically. That is, rather than fixating on what to do with the controls, visualize how the air is passing over the aircraft during all flight regimes.
I was a kid in the early 1950s and remember a half dozen T-6 examples which were based at our local grass strip. After the end of the war, many of these aircraft were let loose on the general aviation pilot population at bargain basement prices. As a consequence, a lot of folks were sometimes hurt and unfortunately often killed in them.
Though the name Trainer is applied to the T6, it is spoken in an entirely different language than would be associated with a familiar civilian trainer such as a 152, 140, or 172.
I can remember some of the crash scenarios reported In the day. A hot dog pilot wishing to impress his earthbound audience with his warbird’s “Homesick Angel” climb performance after liftoff. Full power torque factor and a neglected slowly diminishing airspeed - crossed controls, the nose drops, and in six blinks of the eye, the show abruptly ends.
Dan G. has a video of Devon’s arrival landing at Oshkosh. It was not confidence inspiring.
Same with motorcycles, esp sportbikes. you have to fill you bag of experience, before your bag of luck runs out. I thought I was a good defensive driver until I took up motorcycling, it really amps up your observation and defensive skills. any car can get you at any time, situational awareness at every moment.
As I recall from watching WWII training film's (videos) here on TH-cam, it is mentioned more than once that the T-6 is known as "the pilot maker" because of it's nasty tendency to bite the pilot if not handled correctly 100% of the time. Meaning you had to stay ahead of the airplane and use the correct procedures or it would get away from you in a heartbeat. Some of the instructor pilots in the film's even said that if you could fly the T-6 that you could fly anything (WWII aircraft inventory wise)
I instructed on the Texan ii and our spin recovery is the same as this. Our hard deck for recovery was 10'000 so we had to enter around 14,5 or 15. All students had to be very proficient at it.
Juan, I was fortunate years ago in the late 70s - early 80s - to have a friend who introduced me to Bill Kershner. I had a great time listening to Kershner and picking his brain. He, as you remember, was a very strong advocate of spin training for civilian private pilots and he taught all his students spins and recovery right along with stalls. He was always very disappointed that there was never a requirement for spin skills in civilian private pilot programs and required maneuvers. He was right then, and he's right now.
Interesting stat about fatalities during WWII training. My uncle was killed in combat training it an AT-6. A2A accident. My father went on to fly bomber escort in the P51B's, C's, and finally D's, out of RAF Bodney.
When aircrews flew 25 combat missions, they could return to the states. There they had to go into training squadrons to teach the next guys. So many got killed, that others volunteered to go back in combat, as it was safer.
I've been meaning to get my son some spin recovery and unusual attitude training. This just cements it.
I insisted on some spin training, but one of my instructors was an aerobatic pilot (owns his own Yak-52), and his goal was "let's have fun doing spins" rather than helping me understand spin avoidance. My point is: make sure you find the right instructor who understands what you're trying to achieve.
Man, it really seems like we've had a rash of less than ideally competent pilots lately, and they're decimating the fleet of vintage aircraft. What a shame. It seems to be that MUCH more thorough training is required than what is currently being done. Spin training no longer taught?? That's incredible!!
Money can buy a vintage airplane
Back in 1991 there was an Aviation Expo held in Ida Grove Iowa that involved large scale model aircraft and full size aircraft. During a reenactment of the attack on Pearl Harbor, I watched a modified AT-6 stall and go in right across the runway from us. The NTSB report number is CHI91DCD02. What surprised me at the time was just how quickly the airplane spun and with the pattern they were flying during the demonstration, there was no chance for recovery. Your video of this accident brought all those memories flooding back, RIP pilots.
I did my spin training when I did my instructors rating. I really loved spinning. I do have a friend who was flying one and his passenger put it into a spin, luckily he knew what was going on and he recovered it very quickly
Thanks Juan for another excellent evaluation for us to learn. RIP to another flyer taken from us far too soon. Wonder if the back seat had rudder and stick controls. Possibly froze on controls and she couldn't control the plane. Sad day at Osh.
The wisdom of those who have come before is constantly being lost to the present and future. Thanks for another thought provoking video.
Wow, well done. Once again you handle a difficult subject with expertise and class. You are my number one go to for aviation safety and crash analysis. Thank you for what you do.
Spin instructor here. Spin instruction is invaluable and fun. Too bad it's not required.
Excellent video Juan. Also the demo from Scott. You are both great people and are such valuable assets to the aviation community. I have a couple of thoughts from this sad situation. I am a CFI-I, and of course had to do the spin training/endorsement for instructors. I think its not near enough, but has been very valuable for me. As an instructor, I want students to make mistakes, and see the consequences and then how to recover. This can include departure from a stall and spin recovery. I like to do it with commercial students even though its not required. I always make sure to keep things safe. What I do with private students is when we are doing some VFR simulator training in a simulator that has motion, I use the opportunity to induce a spin in the simulator. You don't get the G force, but you do get motion and the visual of a real spin. I can teach them the recovery technique, which works. The procedure and control inputs should be similar. The other thing you can do, which I would only do with warning the student and explaining it before hand, is demonstrate the base to final overshoot cross control stall at low altitude in the simulator with motion on. They don't forget it. I also teach DMMS. Also, I believe that the reason the FAA did away with required spin training for private/commercial, was accidents. The last note, like has been mentioned by a number of others, each aircraft can have different spin characteristics, so it is important to know what those are. Anyway, thanks for all that you do for us.
I don't know about today, but when I took my primary training in Canada in the mid-90s, spins were part of the syllabus for the Private license.
Very sad to hear about this!!! My prayers and condolences to the families and friends of the two lost young people!!!
I love these old war planes!!!! My grandfather was a ww2 vet and uncle was in the new airforce when it 1st formed and I've always loved these planes and I'm old enough to appreciate how long they've been around! I can't help but feel that as these old planes age the cases of accidents can only go up and I'm at the point I don't think I'd fly in 1 now.
It isn't the airplane. It's the lack of training people are receiving.
@carlospar3727 Yes, I agree, and I understand that in this case, it wasn't a defect of fault of the airplane (at least none had been determined to be so far) and the pilot was new and had low hours in the plane.
i know(from videos) down and fast. but have never sat behind the stick, and can only imagine the feeling you get when you stop going straight. cant imagine the feeling when you know you cant correct. my heart goes out to these people and there familys and all i could say was they wouldnt of changed there minds, they loved all this. they went doing something they loved and i would of done the same if i was there. thankyou for your videos blancolirio! thankyou for your courage the pilots lost!
Apparently what some may consider a non-violent stall and a violent stall is quite different.
Very early in my pilot career, one of my instructors and I went up in a plane neither of us had flown before - a Varga Kachina. It's a small tandem seater, low wing, fixed gear aircraft. You might say it resembles a baby brother T-6. Since I was flying with my instructor, when he told me we needed to get familiar with that airplane by conducting a few stall maneuvers in order to prevent an actual stall during landing, we took it up to about 6,000 feet AGL. Of course, I trusted my instructor since he had taught me lots of other things in other planes so I assumed he knew what we were getting into with this plane as well.
I was wrong.
After several attempts to do a power-off stall, the plane just dipped and flew straight. No big deal so he decided we needed to do a power-on stall. He told me to do it - full power on and pull back hard on the stick. I tried once and nothing. So he told me try again. This time I held it back a long time and just when he started to say to relax, the plane snapped inverted and all I saw was farmlands spinning above my head.
He yells, "I got it!" so I immediately put both hands up where he could see them ( he was in back) and he recovers the plane from the spin. I don't remember how many times we spun but we lost a lot of altitude before we recovered. It reacted much more violently than either of us had expected, so we didn't do that again. Once was enough.
So when that training manual says the stalls were not violent, I wonder if they were talking about a particular type of stall, because in that Varga, the power off and power on stalls were drastically different from each other.
Thanks! I remember my inverted T37 spin like it happened yesterday!
Experience is everything, keep up the good work and teach those youngsters everything! thanks Juan!
So young and had so much potential life ahead of her but this young lady lived more in one lifetime then many. R.I.P. to her and condolences to any that knew her personally.
It has been interesting throughout my training that I was only ever taught spin prevention, with a bit of simulator practice on recovery. That is until now as I go for a CFI certificate which requires the endorsement for spin recovery, prevention, and instruction.
Thanks Juan. My condolences to all the friends and family.
As a glider pilot, I've always found it strange that spin training isn't taught to power pilots. What a tragic loss of life.
Many small GA aircraft are not rated for spins. We certainly learned about them when I went through flight training in the Marines,
As a power pilot, I've always thought it strange that anyone would fly a plane without an engine.
Because the data was pretty clear that spin training was killing more people then actual spins. You can still get the training, but now the core part is avoiding getting into a spin altogether.
@@TheOwenMajorThe skills spiral … spin training was killing people because the spin trainers were not sufficiently skilled at recovering from spins. Stopping the training was not the answer. More training was.
@@sananselmospacescienceodys7308 And glider pilots see the engine as a crutch.
Thank you Juan. I this is so sad and preventable. I was at Air Venture wish I would have seen you!!
Dropping the stall/spin and recovery training was the worst thing the F.A.A. could ever have done. Back in the '60's, when I was flying, the stall/spin was my favorite maneuver and I would try to break out of the stall right at the break point. Thanks for the coverage, God Bless and stay safe.
The requirement to perform spins had been dropped well prior to the 60's and prior to the FAA's existence so it was not the FAA that dropped anything. So if you did any spin training it was voluntary and a pilot today can do the same thing. The FAA is not going to mandate spin training.
IMHO, the FAA position on spin training would be that there would be more accidents during the training than during inadvertent spin entry. Not sure I agree with that but they could have a point.
@@dougdrvrI’m speculating but so many aircraft are hard to get into a spin and base to final spins are generally nonrecoverable so maybe that was their thought process
@@arthurbrumagem3844 Thanks for hitting it on the head - it's one thing to be up at 4k or 6k AGL doing spins but as you said, the problem spins are by and large at very low altitudes and you can't train for that, you're going in at that point.
@@Route66Kitfoxer whenever I turn base to final my concern is always cross control stalls. Maybe I’m overthinking it but it sticks in my mind
I learned how to fly in the late '90's in a J-3 Cub. My instructor had me doing spin recoveries after about six hours in the plane, and showed me how spins accelerate if not dealt with correctly. That's in a Cub, which is a real pussycat as far as spins are concerned. Later, I did some spins in a Citabria, and was shocked at how different the spin entry was. The thing seemed to snap roll over onto it's back. I can only imagine how a T-6 with a 600 horsepower engine and heavy airframe would get you disoriented. It's a shame about this accident, because she was obviously passionate about aviation and the presence of a passenger makes this a double tragedy. If you have never done spins, I highly recommend getting professional training in an appropriate aircraft.
"With each generation..." - you're not wrong Juan. PA-28 manual Aug 1964, 48 pages total, operating instructions 8 pages. It covered 3 variants: PA-28- 150-160-180. Aug 1982 the manual has grown to 257 pages, for one variant!
Thank the Feds and the lawyers for that.
Lmao right? My ‘74 -151’s PoH for an engine fire has for checklist: “land asap”. Might as well write “idk man figure it out, fire hot.”
Thankyou for your compassionate and informational commentary regarding this accident.
A few years ago, there used to be around ten Texans that flew formation out of Van Nuys during Memorial Day, Fourth of July, and the annual air show. The rumble of old radials was memorable as was the sight of old planes flying close formation at a low speed (compared to jets). As the years went by, the number of Texans has dwindled so much so that only two or three remain to fly formation.
I instructed in the T-6 for 2 years…my first solo in the Mustang was…‘that’s it?’…that is how well the T-6 was designed.
this is a tricky machine at low speed, it has a 600 hp engine and at low airspeeds there's not enough roll authority to overcome the engine torque. Experienced T-6 pilots keep extra speed in the pattern. It can get you. Thanks JB.
Juan, thank you for the commendable job you do explaining these situations and/or accidents. I’m sure that we all know the old adage about learning from the mistakes of others… and from that just how important it is to practice so as not to come-a-cropper. Although I never solo’d a Harvard I’ve plenty of stick time in them and a bunch doing aerobatics. They will spin vigorously and to someone caught unawares or not well versed in avoiding spins this is one airplane that will surely bite if provoked. I’m Canadian and fortunately had the benefit of a full regime of stall spin training while learning to fly (40-odd years ago) and kept up my recurrent training in a way that included stall avoidance, incipient and fully developed spin recovery training. It has proven invaluable of the years! Interesting sidebar; learning aerobatics my instructor insisted that we include inverted spin identification and recovery. I did a bunch of aeros in a Zlin142 and it was a pretty aggressive spinner. It spun quite nose down and if one inadvertently entered inverted from let’s say mismanagement of a hammerhead turn it’s easy to end-up spinning inverted. I was quite surprised how much altitude was lost just figuring out whether it was a negative vs positive spin… food for thought.
I'm nearly finished my flight school here in Canada, and spin, spiral, and stall training is big part of the training.
Bravo Juan - well done.
I’ve personally flown with Devyn in and around the CAF. She was a fantastic pilot. I find it very hard to believe that she would have inadvertently entered a stall / spin over the lake on a calm VFR morning after such a docile climb out profile.
There was a T6 that crashed in Wilkes Barre, PA a year or two ago due to a control cable failure. Considering this was an “unrestored” airplane, I think that’s a much more likely cause of the departure from controlled flight than pilot experience or training.
Using the song Bookends at the end was perfect. Well chosen Juan.
"We don't know what we don't know" ... definitely describes the overconfidence of a new pilot with only 500 hours. Those old warbirds aren't as forgiving as a Cessna 182. This tragic loss could have been prevented with more time in the left seat with an experienced instructor. Prayers for her husband and parents.
That was a WW2 training aircraft. It was designed for novice pilots. Which left seat would you fly it from? I doesn't have one. DMMS would have prevented this.
No left seat, the trainee sat n the rear.
@lynnkramer1211 ... I tend to use "left seat" as a general term for flying the airplane. My apologies... I'll be more literal in the future. Thanks for the correction!
" new pilot " . " only 500 hours " l have the logbooks of my dad showing him qualifying for carrier landings one day with 8 total on the USS Sable in Lake Michigan in 1943 flying an SBD. I am sure those guys knew how to recover from a spin by the time they were deemed ready to land on a carrier.
@@lynnkramer1211 It was an Advanced Trainer, hence the name AT-6.
I think not training stall spin recovery is stupid. When I got my license I did spin recovery every time I went flying. And I was taught how to recover right. Thankyou Butch.
I always wonder in these kinds of circumstances if the passenger might've unknowingly stomped on a rudder pedal, inducing a spin before the PIC could regain control. Aimee 'Rebel' Fiedler, F-16 pilot and commander of the Viper East Demo Team for the USAF, described a recent incident in which her passenger actually inadvertently rolled the aircraft (by placing their feet on the rudder pedals) during an orientation flight with a civilian in the back seat. She mentioned it was among the most terrifying things that ever happened to her as a fighter pilot.
THAT is a DEFINITE possibility also. A stall and even the incipient spin portion of the departure in a T-6 is a "thrilling" experience until you get used to it. If the pax got panicked and got on the controls, ESPECIALLY the rudder pedals, that person could have easily made the airplane unrecoverable. I remember very vividly that a very early part of my USN Primary training was focused on adjusting the rudder pedals so that NO ONE could lock their knee into a fully deflected pedal. This briefing item also was OFTEN revisited during training. It was a big enough concern in the KingAirs that ALL OF US (that didn't even know which "community" we would be continuing on to after Primary) had to sit in a KingAir's cockpit to check to see if the seat and pedals were capable of being adjusted to our body to ASSURE that neither knee could lock on the pedals (this was in 1984, and CNATRA had recently lost a KingAir, in which the investigation revealed a locked leg on a rudder pedal was most likely the cause). NO. ONE. CAN. OVERCOME. ANOTHER. PERSON'S. LOCKED. LEG, ON. A. FULLY. DEFLECTED. RUDDER. PEDAL. PERIOD. WHATEVER training this lovely young woman had received, I seriously doubt if the rudder pedal adjustments with an unfamiliar passenger had ever received any in-depth treatment. You guys that give rides OR INSTRUCTION in ANY airplane, but especially in tandem cockpits with installed dual controls, need to remain KEENLY AWARE of this small but INCREDIBLY SIGNIFICANT item, and make it part of your MANDITORY preflight familiarization and emergency procedures brief with your passenger, and even THEN, IF THEY PANIC ON YOU, it's gonna be a crapshoot for you!!!!!!!
I have to agree...
@@terrancestodolka4829 How is that related.
@@complexdevice Seems just like in the John Denver case, some unusual unexpected >maneuver (*) or input like changing the fuel tanks ) happenings can quickly bring down an airplane...
@@cecilboatwright3555Your information is very eye opening and incredibly important. Thank you for being so detailed in your explanation and for your concern. I take my heli CFI check ride in a week. So this information will be used 100%. Airplane CFI will come shortly after. Genuinely, thank you for sharing.
Excellent, thank you for the update.
Being shown a three turn spin at 16yrs old frightened the hell out of me, flying it myself a few minutes later I thought thats cool.
Thanks Juan. What a horrible loss. I appreaciate you walking us through this tragic accident. Training is so important!!
Well done! Although so sad to understand the loss of life of this young pilot and passenger, you have presented an in depth understanding of what has happened. Entering the spin may have been caused by several unfortunate situations, but your walking the viewers through the steps of spin prevention and spin recovery which included the excellent video presentation rounded out a thorough understanding of the spin prevention and recovery. Thanks...
11:18 half roll encouraged before back pressure in inverted spin recovery sequence to prevent disappointment..... great to see Cpt. "Kablamo" Pete at the stick!
🙏🏽 Thank you Juan. Very tragic-to lose a young female pilot, with such an absolute LOVE for aviation and history. Such a long life ahead, so many skills to perfect….
🕊️Condolences to family and friends.
~~
As always, Juan, love your attention to detail and facts 👏🏽.
I sometimes get the feeling that the warbird community is diametric to the museum community. I hear a lot of warbird guys say "Better than sitting in a museum", when what they really mean is "We'll fly all the flyable ones until they crash, because that's still better than sitting in a museum."
There's serious money in flyable warbirds (air shows, private flights, etc.) whereas museums make jack squat.
Honestly I think they probably will eventually fly all of the remaining WW2 birds into the ground and then the "civilian warbird experiment" will be over. There's too much money to be made. Look at the age we live in, nobody cares about history unless it can be extensively monetized and then disposed of without consequence.
Hopefully some will be preserved as statics.
@JFFF428 "only weirdos worry about aircraft"
Then why are you on an aviation channel instead of a woke politics channel?
The loss of lives in addition to the loss of irreplaceable aircraft is inexcusable.
The whole warbird industry (and yes, it is an industry) should have been extensively investigated and re-regulated after the Dallas disaster. If it can't be done internally, then let the Friendly Aviation Association do the dirty work.
Truth is nobody cares about these planes beyond their dollar value as entertainment.
I am relatively new to boating. That bell curve applies to boating as well. I have made a few rookie mistakes. A couple really DUMB ones. Obviously not at 8,000 AGL but dumb just the same. I learn new skills every time I go out and how to manage the situation as it unfolds. (I fly as well, not part of this communication) As Juan explained, there is a steep learning curve with every venture that we aspire to. Keep you head about you, learn EVERYTHING you can about your craft, in this case spin recovery. Enjoy your craft. But most importantly, be safe. Than includes all the knowledge you can acquire. Rest in Peace Devon. May we all learn from this. Happy flying and happy boating!
Good afternoon Ron, and congratulations on your relatively new and fabulously expensive hobby. Former family business commercial boater and salvage diver here who raised a lot of boats sunk by inept yachtsmen. While it was easy for us to say unkind things about the recreational boaters, it was always a wonderful site when a recreational boater was practicing docking in various unused locations to build their competence. Practicing docking and maneuvering is great fun, and when done right is very easy on the boat.
Most important tip about entering or leaving a slip; the engine(s) never need to be above idle, and neutral is just fine if the boat is slowly going the correct direction. With a little practice, at idle you can land like a real pro and not cause much damage when you goof up. All the best youtube "docking fails" type videos involve more power than idle. You can land way too slow, and smart people will say; "Hey, that guy is pretty good".
Have a great weekend!
@@petepeterson5337One of my favorite quotes is: Never approach a dock faster than you want to hit it.
@@roncarguy72 Love that quote!
Thanks Juan for another informative video, and for your great advice from an experienced aviator, who I have tremendous respect for.
It's always a tragedy when we lose a fellow pilot, especially one as young as Devyn.
God bless her.
Sad loss. she seemed like such an enthusiastic flyer.
I'd be enthusiastic too if I flew classic aircraft for fun and daddy paid the bill.
Amelia Earhart was enthusiastic as well, and she wasn't that good of a pilot despite all the media attention of the era. We know where that landed her.
@@venussavage If wishes were horses, beggars would ride. 😉
@@venussavageWhy so bitter? Seems you hate the fact that you’ll never amount to anything. Cheer up kid , enjoy life.
@@venussavageBased
Chills at the end there Juan 😥. Nicely done. My takeaway is what Scott Perdue said "Don't go to those dark places in the first place" and "Spin recovery won't save you in the circuit". A sad loss indeed.
Be interesting to know the date of the last on the scales weight and balance. Glad my instructor was a grumpy old WWII pilot who would not tolerate sloppy flying or off centerline landings.
In South Africa spin training was part of the PPL training and was practised until the Instructor was satisfied before your first solo. Terrified at first as the D.H. Chipmunk had quite a violent flick as it stalled and recovery was initiated before maximum of three rotations as spin started to flatten. Later modification had anti-spin strakes fitted just forward of the horizontal stabilizer to keep the tail up preventing flat spins. Used to go into the g/f area and line up on a road and practise spin recovery accuracy four or five times repetitively for fun.
Well this saved my life about ten years later while doing cropspraying. Had just pulled up after a spraying run and was at about 150 feet commencing a right downwind turn when my engine suddenly failed. My airpeed was low due to the pull up and having no time I was quickly checking where I was going down. A recently ploughed land across the furrows. No time or choice to maneuver. As I checked airspeed I saw that it was dropping past 62 mph and almost immediately the Pawnee flicked into a left hand incipient and pitched nose down. I immediately recognised what was happening and without even thinking kicked full opposite rudder and pushed the joystick forward to unstall the wings. I was now nose down with the ploughed furrows looking the size of the Grand Canyon. Immediately pulled back to avoid a nose down crash and also to get my tail down as low as possible to prevent digging in to the furrows and flipping upside down. Felt the tailwheel hitting first and then the mains. Aircraft stopped very quickly after tail elevated to where I thought I was going onto my back but then fortunately fell back onto the tailwheel. I abandoned aircraft and on closer inspection found that the impact had caused the aircraft to hit the insecticide pump on the field ripping it out, buckling the dump gate, ripping the left hand spray boom out. That was the extent of the damage. Flew the aircraft out off a road parallel to the field after putting the damaged pump in the hopper and tying up the spray boom after mechanic had cleaned out contaminated fuel and filters. Thank God for Mr. Piper and his nice fat wings.
When my sister taught me to drive, we went a large empty parking lot during a snowfall to learn “spin-out recovery”. That saved butt more than once. “Perfect practice makes perfect.” Bill Belichick
Practice makes improvement.
Saving precious lives on view at a time. Thanks Juan !
Spin training instinctively increases your awareness of what not to do, especially in the pattern. You learn to keep the ball centered at all times while maneuvering and airspeed management. Besides performing spins is fun and connects you more with the machine, don't break the aeronautic rules and it won't break you. It's like people purchasing high performance cars without experiencing the full capability of their mount by training at a racetrack, airplanes are the same, you need to experience everything it is capable of performing. In either case you become less of a passenger and more of an operator..
I've been a pilot for 44 years now. I've had the blessing and good fortune to fly a couple warbirds over the years. I grew up in an aviation family. When I started learning to fly (age 9) I was taught by an old, grumpy/frumpy "Stick and Rudder Man". Spins and aerobatics were just part of the teaching curriculum. Why do I mention all this? Having flown the AT-6, it takes some stick and rudder skills and total RESPECT of the limitations of the aircraft. Don't know about you, but I'm sick to death of hearing about all the stall/spin accidents we seem to see almost on a daily basis now. Flying these "Round Engine" birds is NOT microsoft flight simulator. There is no reset button, folks. I STRONGLY have always felt that removing stall/spin demonstration and recovery techniques from the requirements to get a license was a huge mistake and the body count proves it. In this particular tragedy, it's so sad to see a young life taken out like this. Hopefully, it will wake some folks up, to go out and get spin training. Even better, basic aerobatics. I'm glad I did - otherwise I would have been pushing up daisies a long time ago.
Spin training was killing more people than spins, and there is no evidence that the number of deaths due to spins has gone up since.
Doing spin training with an experienced instructor, in an aircraft that easily exits spins is great. But doing spin training with a 25 year old instructor in an old 172 is a bad idea.
@@TheOwenMajor Maybe, maybe not? It seems like there are so many loss of control accidents anymore, that are continually being proven that the pilot got behind the airplane and didn't have the skill-set to get him/herself out of trouble. I can't help but wonder if maybe this accident was a result of "hey, let's have some fun and roll the airplane". Will never know, of course if that happened, but I do wonder how things went south, in what should have been a routine departure and flight home......RIP
@@camtscott Would more training on how to avoid getting into a stall in the first place been more valuable?
I don't see how anyone can point to spin training being the issue. The simple retort is she obviously forgot her training on how to avoid spin situations.
Every pilot is trained to watch their airspeed, energy is life. If she failed that basic principle, no amount of spin training would help.
My grandfather used to fly those in the sixties. RIP.
My father flew them in the 1940's.
@@bryansimmons4550 it was maybe before yeah. They were used for training in the Spanish Air Force.
ty, jb...no words
It’s tragic. I went to school with her husband Hunter and knew him. We were both learning aviation together. He’s always had a passion for warbirds and his wife Devyn did as well. They were doing so much for the aviation community and the warbirds community in particular. They were both excellent and experienced pilots who knew what they were doing; just goes to show that it can happen to any of us and we can all get safer. Great analysis as always
If you ask the comments this could never happen to them
A great teacher indeed Mr pilot J Browne 👍
I'm going to be honest ,the first spin I experienced in an aircraft it was all I could do is brace my arms on the dash and the corner of windscreen because I was absolutely terrified. The more we did the more comfortable I got until I could actually recover the aircraft myself. It took several attempts before I could come close to do what I was supposed to be doing. This may NOT be the case for everyone but it was for me and I just wanted to share it. Just like Scott said get some training even if it's not a requirement because it may just save your life .
Seems so obvious you should do simtraining on this enough before let into controls of any actual plane. O-b-v-i-o-u-s.
@kevincollins2460 I have to inform you that your reactions were 100% normal.
@@teppo9585 not aware of any sims that can replicate spinning with any degree of fidelity.
@buckmurdock2500 You are absolutely correct
It was similar for me, though not as extreme. I was crazy for aviation, seen videos of spins, read the books, so when my instructor offered to demonstrate a spin a few hours into my training I was all for it. To my shock, as soon as the nose fell below the horizon, I felt myself freeze, probably looking like a deer in headlights, and I didn't unfreeze until my instructor brought the nose back up to the horizon in this very benign Cessna 172 one turn spin. I had my training focus on spins after that to the point where I was totally comfortable while in the spin and later I got aerobatic training.
My heart goes out to the family and the friends of the lost souls. Thanks for this video, Juan.