PMDG 737 | Engine and Wing Anti-Ice Tutorial | Real 737 Pilot
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ก.ย. 2024
- Not too sure when to select EAI and WAI on during flight? This tutorial will show you when and how we selected these systems on!
Ice accretion modifies the airflow pattern around the aircraft leading to loss of lift, increased drag, increase in stall speed just to name a few! Ice can also block the pitot/static system which can cause erroneous flight indications.
The 737NG uses the pneumatic system to provide Bleed Air for the WAI and EAI systems to remove and prevent ice from forming on these critical parts, I’ll explain it’s practical/operational use in this tutorial.
===========================================================================
All guidance in my tutorials are based on real world operating procedures, I have almost 4000 hours on the 737-800 (The real one) and I'm also a full-time Instructor working in a full motion Level D simulator.
The aim of this channel is to provide realistic, informative and useful information to help you enhance your flight simulation experience by following me apply real world procedures
Be sure to Like, Comment, and Subscribe and Thanks for watching!
Instagram - / flightdeck2sim
Facebook - / flightdeck2sim
Twitter - / flightdeck2sim
===========================================================================
THIS TUTORIAL IS NOT TO BE USED FOR REAL WORLD FLIGHT TRAINING
All guidance is for Flight Simulation on your PC only. These videos are NOT for professional guidance or instruction but to provide an insight to commercial operations. You must only consult your approved training material/official guidance from your operator.
For enthusiasts, I am in no position to share/copy company material. All guidance is purely to enhance your home flight simulator experience. Any comments/view expressed are mine only.
If you happen to be an Airline Pilot in training or a curious operator firstly thanks for watching! Secondly PLEASE make sure you consult your operators approved training material ONLY.
===========================================================================
Addons Used:
FSX Steam Edition
PMDG 737 NGX
FSX Active Sky Next
REX 4 Texture Direct
EZdok Version 2
ORBX FTX Global Base Pack
This was so good again, thank you soooo much! One of the best channels I've subscribed....!!
You’re most welcome Hambugerschnack 👍🏼
I love learning all these different systems of the 737-800. I don’t even use flight simulators anymore cause I don’t have a computer, but I still enjoy your videos
Cool! I hope you get a PC so you can enjoy the flight simulation hobby soon!
FD2S
Perhaps in the next episode you could discuss memory aid acronyms for checking non checklist systems and items? Such as the one you used to determine the normal engine parameters after engine start.
Hi EnikOLED, working through a long list of requests! There are a few useful acronyms which I'll try and bring to future tutorials.
FD2S
1:56 quote from your tutorial "icing conditions are whenever the SAT OR TAT is below +10C in visable moisture". What if SAT is below +10C and TAT is above +10C is that icing conditions? Thanks again 1000 times for great content.
EDIT: Meanwhile I think I found the answer. Icing conditions exists whenever TAT is below +10C and SAT above -40C. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
That's it!
FD2S
@@flightdeck2sim in the video you wrote "OAT 10°C or less". OAT = SAT. I think that the correct sentence is "TAT 10°C or less".
Thank you so much for this lesson, Captain! Appreciated it!
You’re welcome!
FD2S
Was nice to speak to your EMA based pilot today at LPL! Hope you got the voice message ;) - P.S. great video again!
Yes I got the message! So much for my anonymity! Might see you there one day!
FD2S
Hahah, "small world" it is lol
Thanks for the great tutorial :) At 07:08, I guess you mean to say "above -40'C" rather than "below -40'C".
Hi Captain. Just keep getting better and more informative. Will be waiting in anticipation for your next tutorial.
Steve.
Thanks Steve!
FD2S
Very nicely explained
Thank you! 🙂
FD2S
thank u for posting these videos i will soon be flying this plane in a real simulator and been flying the airplane more often to try and prove how good and well i know the airplane, so i do hope u videos can help
Hi Lee,
I hope they do help! Have fun in the Sim!
FD2S
Absolutely love this channel, so much information and detail, many thanks! I was wondering whether you might be able to do a video about head/tailwind components? I'm particularly curious how crews take advantage of unexpected tailwind components, and how they decide whether to increase speed for the same fuel burn, or use less fuel to maintain the same speed (or a combination of both) - anyway thanks again for the great videos :)
Hi tjf4375, thanks a lot and welcome!
With regards to en-route planning we're in the 21st century! All airlines will use an optimised flight planning tool which will plan the most efficient route based on several parameters. One of the things is airspace capacity permitting it will plan the most optimal Flight Level based on any Tailwind component.
If the Tailwind is not as forecast (which doesn't happen too often as modern forecasting is extremely accurate) we can plan to fly a different flight level, generally speaking we stick to the flight plan which will give the most efficient routing.
We use a LIDO OFP, you can find the identical format at www.simbrief.com/home/ which I've compared to the real world OFP's we use, it's almost identical.
FD2S
Thanks for the video! I got an idea - could you make a video about the cruise phase? It's usually quite boring for us simmers if you have failures turned off etc.
I wonder what kind of things happen, what you check for and deal with in real life, to "simulate" it at least to some degree. It would make the cruise a bit more interesting in my opinion :).
Thanks.
The cruise can be boring in real life as well!!
There are some routine tasks like checking your en-route progress and fuel burn but it’s generally a low workload period, we would take the time to grab a bite to eat!!
FD2S
Great tutorial. Have been looking for a good explanation of this. 👍
Thanks Adam!
FD2S
Thanks for the video
i even like the vid before i watch it cuz i know its gonna be wicked
Another question on wing anti-ice, how do you know when to switch it off again? Since you normally as you mentioned don't want to use it for anti-ice purposes. Which would be the case if you leave it on after the ice has melted. While at the same time, it will be hard for you to see this for the reasons you mentioned. Where looking at the windscreen wiper will only show you ice buildup but not when this buildup of ice has melted on the wings.
You have to turn it off after five minutes otherwise the engine can explode and even kill passenger next to the turbine. It's a design flaw mentioned in the news
Great video as always!
So the rule is to use engine anti ice when
1. -40°C
no wonder i kept getting cabin altitude warnings whenever i used wing anti ice
When would you normally use wing anti-ice in the before taxi flow? Is that when you haven't had any treatment sprayed onto the aircraft and the OAT is below 3C or only when you actually see ice buildup on the aircraft?
Great tutorial thanks!
We need Anti ice if temperature is -10 or below when we are flying through the clouds, so we dont need if its clear but its -10 or 20° ?
yes
Brilliant guide..thanks.. would it be too much to ask you to display your PC spec in the Addons section? Thanks
Hi there!
• Intel Core i7-7700K Kaby Lake Processor/8MB L3 Cache
• Chillblast 120 CPU Water Cooler
• Asus PRIME Z270-P Motherboard
• 32GB DDR4 2400MHz
• 500GB Samsung 960 EVO M.2 SSD
• NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Graphics Card
FD2S
Great Tutorial as always,
hi, nice tutorial, I would like to ask you a question, how is the TAI off value calculated in the forecast-descent page?
Enjoying the video's. Thanks.
Thanks Jerrell 👍🏼
FD2S
Very informative.. thank you very much.
Do you know if the wing anti ice indication is modelled on the new NGXu ?
I was wondering this myself, too. They modeled rain and condensation on the windshield, so maybe they modeled icing, too. I never encountered it in 100+ flights, though.
So can you have them both on at the same time ? Also do you have to have engine start switches to continuous for them to work?
Thanks again F2S, really interesting. So much technical information and you are absolutely correct, it does add significantly to the flight sim experience.. Have you tried the approach into Gibraltar, either in the sim or real life?
kind regards Gareth
Hi ghl, glad you enjoyed it!
Neither I'm afraid, I've heard it's a fun approach!
FD2S
One question I have, I always thought icing was based on TAT instead of SAT. I've seen Boeing call icing conditions existing between +10 and -40 TAT. I thought this was because it's a better indicator of the actual temperature of the aircraft skin. Does RYR use SAT instead of Boeing's recommended TAT?
From Boeing: "The airplane flight manual (AFM) defines icing conditions as when the outside air temperature (OAT) on the ground or total air temperature (TAT) in flight is 50 degrees F (10 degrees C) or less"
Hi Alex,
Yes the definition is correct but operation of the Anti Ice Systems is based off both SAT, TAT and OAT
We do not use EAI above 10C TAT as that is likely the temperature of the skin due to the effects of compressibility as you mentioned HOWEVER when the SAT temperature is below -40C Ice won't really adhere to the aircraft surface so we turn it off.
If you have access to the AFM reference ENGINE ANTI -ICE SYSTEM Limitation.
Good day!
FD2S
Awesome clarification! Thanks, your answer makes sense. Keep up the amazing tutorials!
could you do a brief vid on the pressurization system
Hi Shaqielle.
May I recommend you review FCOM 2 which comes with the PMDG and can be easily accessed online, this will show how the air conditioning system and pressurisation works.
FD2S
Dear Captain,
What a joy again. Thank you for the effort and all of that for free. Qty: Recently I saw in a Docu Aircrash Investigation that a pilot had a loss of hydraulics. He could only change the direction by using the left or right throttle. He had succeeded a landing without any damage. But the commentator said that recently a change had taken place and the airplanes could now do it automatically by the computer. So if you change the heading the computer use the throttles to change. Is this also implemented into the 737 in real world and if yes also in the 737 PMDG? If your answer is positive maybe a idea for a new topic. Kind regards and have a nice day.
Hi G L
I can't think of any commercial aircraft which would automatically adjust thrust automatically to turn and certainly not with the 737! In normal flight that is what the flight control are for! If you were to completely lose hydraulics you can still fly the 737 through a System Called Manual Reversion, it's hard work but doable.
Boeing have some recommendations for situations outside the scope of NNC's, one of these points discusses using thrust to aid controllability if it's difficult.
All the best!
FD2S
I’m sure it’s been asked and there’s a list, could I ask for at some point “no engine bleed takeoff” and an explanation as to why you would do it?
Hi Danwabe,
I was planning one but the way the FMC is programmed with PMDG means there is a split in the N1. will tweak and play around to see if I can match how it would behave in real life. It's used for performance reasons, a bit like turning the A/C off in your car, you get a little bit more power!
FD2S
flightdeck2sim thank you!!
Hello captain. If I fly within a sigmet zone with icing condition e.g. xxx until FL200, does the visible moisture rules apply to turn on EAI? or EAI needs to be on all the time within sigmet zone and alt regardless of moisture is visible or not?
Hi! Just wanted to get your opinion why does outer slats are not heated?
Are the consequences in icing conditions displayed in P3Dv4?
sir apart from the FMC,are there any other instrument that could help you for detecting the icing condition?
Again, you've added yet another layer of 'richness' to flite simming.
You're most welcome Doug,
FD2S
in what conditions do we need to land wiht Vref Ice
Good morning FD2S, thank again for the outstanding tutorial. Question: is it possible for ice build up on the fan blade and blade spinner if there's a delay between taxi and takeoff (say on a foggy and drizzly day)? What procedure would you use to de-ice (would you just increase the thrust to decrease the accumulation of the ice? Thanks again for your great vid-tutorials. I think you may have already covered this. No need to answer if you have, just please point me toward your answer. Cheers from across the pod. Mike
Thanks Michael.
Yes there is a fan blade ice removal procedure, click this link and it will start at the right time explaining the procedure.
th-cam.com/video/9bVE_TuB8WY/w-d-xo.htmlm40s
FD2S
Both system can used when landing? ( Snow storm + Low visibility + TAT -4 degree)
Yes you can use WAI and EAI, so long as the winds are within limits and the braking action on the runway is sufficient
FD2S
Very educational stuff about 737 anti icing systems... Like I never knew you'd want to switch the starters to CONT before enabling engine anti-ice or that wing anti ice can kill off your bleed system. XD Much learned.:)
Could you also let me in on why WAI is so strictly forbidden on ground (or so I heard) even if it's say -20 and snowing like armageddon is upon you?
Hi Karsten, thanks a lot!
WAI is used on the ground and for takeoff in icing conditions UNLESS you’ve been de-iced/anti-iced by Type II or IV fluid which is preventing ice from forming on the wings.
FD2S
Why are the start switches set to continuous in the approach/takeoff? Is it to avoid flame out due to heavy precipitation/ice or a bird strike?
You answered your own question....!
FD2S
flightdeck2sim Thanks for that, I assumed that was the case.
I had no ideia also what would we do without flightdeck2sim ahah :D
Actually not necessarily true ice will go through the engine and transfer through the honey cone heat exchanger inside the engine and will more than likely liquify and expell out of the engine, however this is not a guarantee depending on condition . You need to brush up on engine engineering, torelances information
I'll take your word for it! I don't think FCOM even mentions "Honey Cone Heat Exchanger" or any tolerances regarding its use but thank you for enlightening me. Remember pilots are pretty dumb but I will continue to use engine anti ice as per FCOM and as I have done the last 7 years.
FD2S
Thank you very much for that nice and well explained video.
How good/well does PMDG modelling the ice conditioning on the aircrafts model and on the flight experience?
Hi avionengine.
I only just found out that there is a rudimentary form of icing modelled in FSX, let alone tested it!
FD2S
flightdeck2sim thank you for your fast reply.
Does the icing condition effect the virtual aerodynamic on these aircraft?
Like speed drops, incresed stall speed, etc?
Like I said bud, I only just found out icing is simulated!! Certainly on the real aircraft you’d have to be in significant icing with a failure of the heating element to get erroneous indications 👍🏼
FD2S
Hi again captain! Once again an amazing video. I have a question. In descent when we need to open ΕΑΙ? Ιf we need descent from FL350 with no clouds and SAT -45° C EAI must should be on or off? Thanks a lot!
Thanks Christopher! If you’re not in cloud you’re not in visible moisture! 👍🏼
FD2S
Thanks captain! Wait a video sometime for weather radar as well
Hi Chris,
I might do one. The WX Radar on the NGX is a little different to the one installed to our fleet.
FD2S
Not sure if this is a mic thing, or a audio gain thing... but when you get to the end of your sentences, your voice volume trails off to unrecognisable babble (sounds like). So there is a lot of what you said that I couldn't hear. Great video otherwise.
hello fd2sim! I was reading the FCOM for engine anti-ice and I have a question for you.
If the aircraft has automatic ignition do we need to put the engine start switches to CONT before engine anti-ice to ON?
Hi MikePapa.
Yes you’ll need to put the start switches to continuous. They only automatically ignite if the engine flames out
FD2S
Is it possible to activate the anti-ice on the ground?
Absolutely!
FD2S
Hi FD2S, what's the procedure at night? when you can't see the moisture.
Check the windshield wipers for any ice accumulation.
@@dynasty0019 That'd be the wing anti-ice but with the engine anti-ice you have to use the visible moisture criteria that's why I asked how they do it at night
I think we just need to turn on the landing lights and we can see the fog.
And isn't anti ice used in the FMC for decent to anticipate the increase in idle thrust?
It can be used to help VNAV build a more accurate descent profile but I’ve generally not seen it used as it’s difficult to predict when you’ll turn it on during descent.
FD2S
I would leave the anti icing on all the time
Prohibited to use above 10C and you'll burn more fuel!
FD2S
Thanks again I learn a lot. Can you land with engine ice and wing anti ice on because of
performance drop.
Kind regards Jeen
Hi Jeen,
Yes you can land with EAI/WAI if required, there is a very small performance penalty.
FD2S
flightdeck2sim And that is a few more knots more in VREF + 5 knots? Thanks FD2S
Not for Flap 30 or Flap 40, we add 10 kts if landing in a non-normal situation with F15 or less 👍🏼
flightdeck2sim Thanks FD2S
but VREF+ 20 with flaps 30 is also possible? If you have to land in extreem gusting winds 40 are up conditions? When do you land with flap15 setting?
Max speed on final approach is VEEF+20, Flap 30 better than Flap 40 in gusty strong winds and F15 for several non-normal conditions (eg. Single Engine, Loss Sys B)
Hello Captain, I have a question regarding the use of Logo lights. Do you use them up until 18.000 ft or do you use them for the whole flight? (night ops obviously)
On below FL100 during Night.
FD2S
flightdeck2sim many thanks, currently on route TRA5952 Lisbon to Amsterdam
Safe Landings!
FD2S
Visible moisture are clouds, rain etc?
Hi Mo K,
Exactly! Fog, rain, snow, slush, ice and visibility less than One Statute Mile (1600m)
FD2S
Hello flightdeck2sim
I have a question. There are a lot of airports in France but when I playing flightsim there is one place in France where I like to land. The airports name is Chambery LFLB. And the scenery is killing just like the approach with a slope of 4.46 degrees and a short runway to land 6627ft. For a 800 its listed as short runway qualification. Its great fun to land on rwy 18 but more fun to land on rwy 36 on short finals a slope of 4 degrees and making the turn to finals at 1800ft. When you fly the ILS approach rwy 18 with the tricky slope of 4.46 degrees you have a vertical speed on average a 1050ft.The minums are based on a missed approach climb gradient. My question is "how would you land the 737 on this airport rwy18"? I mean in what configuration (flaps gear down) you would intercept the slope to get the speed out of the plane? When flying visual on the papi, papi is set for the 4.46 slope on visual then how to flair the plane with the correct VREF speed wit a vertical speed of more then 1000ft? And finaly can you tell me something about the missed approach climb gradient? How do you guys calculate that. Hope you can make a tutorial about this stunning airfield.
kind regards Jeen
Hi Jeen,
Steep approach are very challenging! You would want to initiate the flare a little sooner, you would also want to be fully configured prior to intercepting the vertical profile otherwise you'll be unable to maintain airspeed (The 737 is very slippy). The maximum rate of descent at the Landing Gate is typically 1000ft which works well for a normal 3 degree slope but angles in excess of 4 degrees will require a higher rate of descent. So long as it's briefed and discussed that you need a higher ROD to stay on profile that is acceptable.
Unfamiliar with LFLB, could make a good tutorial!
FD2S
Hello flightdeck2sim,
thanks a lot for answering my questions. Can you tell me what you mean by a higher ROD? Is that a higher approach speed than a normal VREF+5. It would be very nice if you make a tutorial of this approach so we can watch how you guys land the 737 on LFLB. I hope that you can also explain the plate of LFLB with the minimums (the plate with the missed approach gradient).
Kind regards Jeen
Hi Jeen,
By ROD I mean the Rate of Descent required to stay on the steeper vertical profile, for a typical 3 degree ILS at 140kts you’ll need around 750fpm
For steeper approaches a higher descent rate is required. Not to be confused with your VREF which is speed. Your final fly speed is based on Headwind Component.
I don’t have access to the Approach plate at LFLB but you must ensure you comply with the missed approach Climb gradient prior to flying the approach. This ensures if you have an engine failure you won’t hit an obstacle, the standard is 2.5% but airport like LFLB will have higher gradients due terrain.
FD2S
Thanks a lot flightdeck2sim :)
Thank you for another great tuturial as always!
Have you heard the latest news? PMDG is going to launch a new 737 NG3 any time soon.
You can find more information here in the official announcement:
www.avsim.com/forums/topic/530152-27jan18-first-preview-of-the-pmdg-747-8-exciting-times-ahead/
The 737 NG3 is going to have the same new features such as the upcoming 747-8.
Hope to see EFB etc. tuturials then ;) ✌️
outro music? :D
Using Rex sky force?
Active SKY Next
FD2S
Great! Thanks! Are you based at EGGW?
Hi.
I don’t wish to disclose where I’m based. I’ve flown into LTN a few times 👍🏼
FD2S
Your usage of wing anti ice is contrary to what I have learned in school. Anti ice is just that. Its not a deicer. Ice can refreeze if you wait too long and use anti ice. You want to use anti ice before entering icing. Not after you have ice.
Hi there! What school was this may I enquire and which bit of the video are you referencing?
EAI is used as Anti-Ice, you turn it on before entering icing condition.
WAI, as mentioned in this video, is primarily used as a de-icer and we turn it on when actual icing has been detected (on the windscreen wiper/bolt typically in the 737). You can use WAI for anti ice but sustained use can cause the ice to melt, flow to the wing and re-freeze so it’s recommended to be used as de-icing. Straight from the Boeing manual.
FD2S
@@flightdeck2sim A&P school that I went to 20 years ago explained anti ice systems are not deice systems and if used in a deice situation can result in ice refreezing and causing issues. They recommended anti ice be turned on before experiencing icing. Not used to remove ice after the fact.
@@MrEkg98 Well specifically for the 737, Wing Anti Ice is primarily used as a de-icer. You allow ice to build up and then turn on WAI to remove it. I'm quoting the Boeing manual directly here, this procedure "provides the cleanest aerofoil surface and the least possible runback and ice reformation"
Using WAI as an Anti-Icer is permitted but is a secondary method and is more likely to cause the aforementioned icing issue.
That's the way Boeing says and the way I've been doing it the past 12 years.
FD2S
@@flightdeck2sim which manual and page number. I do not fly these things. Just maintain them. 1700 hours later and a 4.0 gpa. 17 years experience. We are taught generalities. Not on one perticular airframe.
It’s in FCOM 2 but every FCOM is tailored to the specific airline. You should be able to search online and then look under Anti Ice and Rain 👍🏼
First!
Great video.. Thanks
but ...
You don't need to finish the sentence in one breath dude ✌️😅