The Dark side of K-Pop no one tells you
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 ต.ค. 2024
- America invented the Manufactured Band with Boy Bands in the 90s. But the South Koreans perfected the art and created the multi Billion Dollar K-Pop Industry. It's Success may be great for Globalization but it should scare most musicians. For in Moneyballing every aspect of the music industry, they have created a Dream Factory which is really the Musicians worst Nightmare.
"Lou Pearlman, hold my beer" LOL
Great analysis. Going back to Bay City Rollers, Spice Girls, Back Street Boys, N'Sync is one thing, absolutely, but looking at the K.Pop industry I would make the comparison more with kids of 7 or 8 going into intensive 'boot camp' for the Bolshoi Ballet, or pre-pubescent Gymnasts in some countries aiming for Olympic Gold. No childhood, high attrition rate before 'making it' and the suicide rate when they hit the sell-by date is very sad. It hearkens back to the studio system in early Hollywood, contemporary Bollywood even . . . but way more intensive 'artiste development'. Scary to watch, really, for old school musos like me.
The first K=pop style band that I know of actually came from Mexico called Menudo (1977-2009). When the boys got too old, they were swapped out.
The first cookie cutter label that i know of was Motown. For instance one could be a writer or a singer but not both. Many country labels followed the pattern.
Puerto Rico
The hard fact is its the fans, the people listening that make this reality. They buy the tickets, the music, the shirts. People could listen to a thousand bands now, all kinds of styles, and sounds. Blame the masses who want this.
Yeah ultimately when you make something a product, you make it easy for consumption. Art requires a little more attention span
That's the "Sheep" Roger sings about in animals inspired by Orwell. Dogs are the capitalist SCHvines. Pigs are just nasty, Thatcher and Trump.
@@ministryofguitarWhat is art? You sound like a total douche when you try to tell us what art is and isn’t.
Extremely interesting video. Very well presented and articulated.
Thank you
Great talk. I agree that Koreans perfected boy bands and I completely agree that in a way, they're living in the future and that the west is behind. Its only a matter of time where music focused around beautiful people and entertainment shows/social media content is going to be the only mainstream music, devoid of individual artistic expression because it will be made by a massive team of people.
superficial sound and movement entertainment not music.
Hey don’t be so hard your county’s artists. 😂
@@JohnLee-db9zt souless "music" is not county or country dependent unfortunately it can be found everywhere
There is always a misconception that the boy band concept started with Perlman and his Back Street boys and Insync projects, but this is something that he most likely adopted from the success of a boy band from Puerto Rico formed sometime in the 70s early 80s,known as Menudo later rebranding them self as MDO sometime in the 90's early 00's and they were not just big in P.R., Menudo was an international hit drawing massive crowds to see them in what seemed akin to BTS proportions and like BTS , Menudo was so big that they had merchandise based on their image from school supplies to 8-inch action figures, not only that they produced a Saturday morning cartoon about them in America, in addition it launched the career of Ricky Martin also an international superstar in his time. Although the argument can be made that groups like the Jackson 5 or the Osmond family were possibly prototypes for Menudo, Menudo I feel ushered in the modern era of the boy band that Lou Perlman was mirroring when he created his boybands, yet their contribution to that genre is ignored, I wasn't a fan, but I won't deny their impact, like I said they were undeniably a big deal.
You are a 100% right. I didn't get into the backstory of where Lou Perlman got the idea from for the sake of being concise. But I will in a separate video including Menudo
Man you forgot about the Monkeys and the Archies in the 60s.
That genre is cheese. Given enough time...gets moldy.
It’s been around since the early 90’s, so over 30 years. And it’s still climbing. You sound like a muppet.
@@JohnLee-db9zta music lable taking advantage of young artists have been happening since Motown or even before.
You’re incredibly naive if you think only Kpop is predatory for young artists. Hollywood, Bollywood, etc all of them are just as bad if not worse.
Right ✅
Similar. Music industry in The Philippines 🇵🇭. Example. Morissette Amon blew up in 2018 and 2019 on TH-cam. Yet, Western nations do not put her music on mainstream radio 📻 luckily, David Foster hired her to sing in his Asian tour.
KPop is great. I'm a musician and love it.
I think this is the best thing you’ve done. You need to find your business manager partner and you could be the next Joe Bonamassa and I mean that in the best way possible, I am a fan and you would cater to the some music crowd
What happened to the earlier video?
some issues
Could never stomach k-pop, it's not music to my ears nor candy for my eyes. The young generation though can't get enough of it... thanks for the nod to Mario Puzo and the greatest trilogy of all time! Back then, movies that came in parts really had to be that way because of the depth and complexity of the storyline. These days, it's nothing to do with the storyline. I did enjoy Guardians of the Galaxy though, great soundtrack 👍
Thanks for sharing. On a side note, I really miss Great Hollywood movies. Franchises killed everything
It looks like the video was reuploaded with a slightly altered title, so I'll repost my previous comments that was deleted with the old video here:
Before I start, I just want to say what I'm about to write isn't directed at Utkarsh or the topic of his video, but simply about the backlash K-pop has received overall. I've been a musician for most of my life (I'm in my 50s now), having played in a band, written songs for pop stars, composed music for film and game, and now teach music. And I have been a fan of K-pop since 2001. I compose and write a diverse range of genres of music--from "serious" stuff like classical and jazz, to edgy stuff like industrial and metal, to mainstream stuff like pop, rock, funk, soul, to soundtracks for media. This is one of the reasons why I love K-pop, as it encompasses all of those influences in compelling ways.
The problem with discussions about K-pop from outsiders (those who are not fans) is that the tone is always critical or derisive. Jokes about how one would rather die than having to listen to K-pop is one of the laziest jokes in modern culture, because the people who make them have never actually heard any K-pop beyond the ultra-mainstream stuff that managed to become popular in the West, like for example, BTS and BlackPink. But those two groups are not all of K-pop, just like how One Direction and Taylor Swift are not all there is to Western pop music, and it would be ignorant, lazy, and unfair to judge the whole of Western pop music based just those two artists.
There are many "serious" musicians who love K-pop, and if it had nothing of merit to offer, then why would classically trained musicians or metal musicians who prize virtuosity become huge fans of k-pop? Don't believe me? Go check out the TH-cam channel, "Reactothek," which is dedicated to classically trained musicians gushing over K-pop and analyzing the sophisticated music theory and cutting-edge production techniques utilized in many K-pop songs. In fact, as pop music in the West continues to be simplified in terms of musical language (due to decades of hip-hop influence that emphasized "beat" over other musical elements like melody and harmony), K-pop in comparison, often uses advanced jazz harmonies, sophisticated melodic contours with frequent modulations, and blending many disparate genres together into a seamless and compelling whole. This is the reason why there are serious musicians who love K-pop.
I grew up on 80's J-pop/rock and anime soundtracks, and it was an era where a genre like City Pop would blend sophisticated jazz and fusion elements with soul, funk, disco, electronic, and pop. K-pop, in many ways, is a continuation of that musical sophistication in pop music, and why I fell in love with it in the first place. With that said, like in any genre of music, there will be good and bad examples, and until you have actually delved deeply into K-pop and heard hundreds of songs from a wide spectrum of artists and groups, you haven't actually heard the kind of amazing K-pop that would turn classical and jazz musicians into fans. If all you know are a handful of the most mainstream K-pop songs, then you don't actually know K-pop.
Now, about the industry practices. This is not unique to Korea. This "idol system" has been around for far longer--way before K-pop was a twinkle in anyone's eyes. The root of it actually started with J-pop, where idol groups were managed in similar ways. What K-pop brought to the table was the Olympic athletes-styled training system, where you have to be the best of the best to be able to debut as an idol. The rest of it--the lack of freedom, the unfair contracts, the overworked talents, the extreme parasocial relationships with fans--that all started in Japan decades before K-pop existed. And it's still that way in Japan--just search for "Japanese idol shaved head in apology" and you'll see a relatively recent example of this.
Another thing I want to bring up, is that K-pop is but one segment of the Korean music industry, just like how pop is only one segment of the American music industry. There are plenty of Korean music that has nothing to do with K-pop, and many of those artists top the charts and enjoy decades of success, whereas K-pop artists would be lucky to even last seven years of their contract with the record label. If you look at South Korea's music charts, you'll see ballad singers, R&B singer/songwriters, Trot singers, etc., dominating the charts, and a lot of people in South Korea don't listen to or care about K-pop. I'm a huge fan of Korean indie, R&B, and there are also rock and metal bands, underground rappers, experimental avant-garde, jazz, etc. in Korea. So there's nothing to worry about, because K-pop can't even dominate Korea, let alone the rest of the world.
(And when Utkarsh asked for recommendations of good K-pop music, I posted this:)
@ministryofguitar Well, you're in luck because I have a playlist I specifically put together for musicians who want to find out just how amazing and diverse K-pop and adjacent Korean music can be. th-cam.com/play/PLwThiM_5P5CZ_6_GQP8ocJWSDPb6H-kQ2.html&si=IG56QesnT3gb5q_x
Yes I had to reupload the file
This was so interesting. I am a casual Kpop fan because of the diversity of music genres in kpop. I think of the top Kpop idols as being very much like the top athletes; ballet and modern dancers; academically accelerated 'genius' children; and other areas that require disciplined formal training from a young age. As long as it's well regulated and supervised, I think having organized training to prepare you for a competitive career is actually very beneficial for the kids and their families. There is a dark side to any intensive career so I think it's worth it if the child wants to do it and is willing to make the sacrifices necessary and can leave at a reasonable time if they wish to not continue with the career.
@LunatiqueRob Might be the best reply I've ever read on TH-cam. A master of words 👏👏
...I don't know why but I feel bad for you.
@@PrestigeWorldwideNAM Can you elaborate?
Fashion models cosplaying as artists.
They all definitely could be fashion models
Only people not familiar with K-Pop call them artists. They exclusively refer to themselves as idols.
This world ruins everything. That's good
Yep. We're a mess.
Hmm
Cautionary tale? You can say the same crap about every music industry on the planet including Bollywood and western music industries. Most Kpop fans like Kpop because it’s not hypersexualized mess like most western and Bollywood music. And you’re only fixated on the most popular groups. There are so many talented musicians and singers in Kpop who are far less known and don’t get the credit they deserve from western media that is fixated on black pink and BTS (AKMU, BeWhy, Mamamoo, IU, SoHyang, etc).
Sounds a lot like the early Hollywood star machine. I remember Judy Garland and what happened to her 😢
I think it is exactly that
Without diminishing your points, focusing on a particular part of Kpop instead of looking at it holistically misses many points.
I've made this point elsewhere but will make it again. Kpop trainees are no different than atheletes and they're expected to train as such. Gymnastic students start very young. Most sports start people young. Many Kpop trainees have also worked as child models/actors or have already taken singing/dance training. Since many of them are living in agency dorms with the agencies in loco parentis, they know that to debut as quickly as possible, they have to keep the trainees not only focused on their studies, but teach them dietary rules and physical fitness, not only because it enhances their physical attractiveness, but also because Kpop is a physically demanding genre requiring almost constant dancing onstage.
Another positive point missed is that Kpop is producing a huge number of smart, business-savvy, talented women who are coming into the Kpop marketplace, succeeding, and demanding more creative autonomy. IU is not only an artistic inspiration for many of the 3rd and 4th Gens, but she also broke away from her agency and established her own to manage her career more in line with her desires. All the Blackpink members broke away for their individual activities and it's expected Jeon Soyeon and her (G)I-dle members will as well. These women are changing Kpop to a more artist-driven model along with expanding agency options and the older agencies are running scared as contracts expire and their artists talk openly of leaving with plenty of places to land now.
The suicide rate is nothing to be proud of, but Korea has the highest suicide rate in the world. It's not just Kpopper that are killing themselves in Korea. Korea is unique in that it's the nation where the future has slammed hardest into its society, threatening to upend long-established social conventions. The West certainly has a high suicide rate as well, but the statistics are lumped by occupation (usually) so we don't know how many creatives have killed themselves unless it's someone high profile like David Foster Wallace.
So Kpop is not just a musical genre, it's a reflection of Korean society as well. Ksociety demands excellence and it has produced artists and songs that have captured the imagination of the world. Its challenge now is finding how to keep demanding excellence, while being more humane. Do we softpedal someone's shortcomings, or do we be blunt like Lisa and Soyeon did in their mentorships and encourage people to keep practicing but be honest when they're not making the grade? It must count for something when you have people like Rose saying she wouldn't be where she is if it wasn't for the trainee system. We have to look at both the winners and the losers before we can make an accurate assessment.
I really like your measured response. I wanted to say a few things
1) Fully agree on the analogy with Olympic Athletes.
2) Fully agree on Suicide being a problem in Korea
3) Fully agree on the evolution as you mentioned with the Blackpink members
Now I think the real difference between our views is a philosophical difference. I fully believe in the optimisation towards goals for say Business, Sports and even one's life in general (the last point is a rabbit hole once you examine it). However Art which requires a touch of that randomness, a touch of the undefinable, in my opinion cannot or should be optimised for any goals beyond its own beauty.
One could say, lets agree Kpop is not art but a well polished product, shake hands and move on. It's tempting but it is not comprehensive. The issue is that heavily promoted, easy to digest product , posing as art , is rapidly replacing it in the share of mind of a populace whose attention span is already being destroyed for the sake of profit. A good analogy (though not an exact one) is how difficult it is for most people to read a book anymore but consuming short clips (to keep themselves 'informed') is easy peasy.
I think there needs to be a space of the unoptimised, the unfettered, at least in the arts, if nothing else to keep our innocence and ultimately humanity
@@ministryofguitar Welllllll,
Depending on what your definition of "Art" is (I think you sketch the boundaries if not the content), I'd argue that (most) Kpop is a well-polished product and that's fine with me. Beautiful women, catchy hooks, dancing which reminds me how out of shape I am, and the cleanest musical production I'd ever heard, and I've been listening to music a long long time. I sometimes swoon over Ksongs because you can actually hear the vocals and the instruments clearly, including a lot of those wierd beats and accents just lurking in the background.
But I would also argue that many Idols are trying to make art and they couldn't do it without making that polished product. It seems to be a lot easier to lead fans from pop stuff to more serious stuff than vice versa. IU started as one of the poppiest cute girls but quickly blossomed into a true artist that brought her old fans along while making new ones. Soyeon to me is also an artist. She not only has some of the best technical chops in the biz, but she's used her group's success to push into unknown song territory. If you can't call "Lion" a work of art, there's something seriously wrong. Rose is a serious musical artist and even if you don't care for Lisa's music, you have to acknowledge LaLisa is now making Her Music Her Way, so she is not following the crowd.
I think true Art is what it's always been, very rare. To me, I'm grateful that Kpop always seems to be striving towards music that's commercially successful but has artistic integrity, at least some of the time if not all...
K-pop is a bit of a mixed bag. On one hand there are some very interesting musical ideas being explored, blending influences from everywhere, but on the other hand it is very much a business run by ruthless marketing departments, more focused on generating profits than fostering musical talent. In many cases, the k-pop stars are just a tool to sell the product: interchangeable, disposable, and easily replaced. Western pop music in many ways is the same, just less visibly so and with more subtlety. The difference may be that western music typically starts with someone with musical talent and then tries to mold them into a product (a la the reality singing competitions), whereas k-pop often starts with attractive dancers and tries to sell them as musical artists.
So you’re claiming attractive people can’t be talented? Lol, tell that to Whitney Houston, Taylor Swift, Nora Jones of the world. It only goes to show you’ve drank the main stream media Kool Aid and know very little about how diverse Kpop is. It’s been around for over 30 years and still climbing.
@@JohnLee-db9zt No, I made no such claim.
@@gteltschikRead your last sentence. The innuendo is obvious.
@@JohnLee-db9zt I wrote the last sentence - it says exactly what I wanted it to say, and only what I wanted to say. It makes no comment on whether someone with musical talent is attactive or if an attractive dancer has musical talent (or not). It makes a very clear comment that the order of preference for different characteristics is very different between K-pop and western music. That’s it. You’re just twisting my comment to say what you want so you can argue online because you can’t stand any criticism of K-pop, valid or not. You assumed I don’t listen to K-pop. You assumed I know nothing about the music industry, or Korean culture, or the variety of Korean musical genres. You assumed wrong on all fronts.
The Public Want What The Public Get.... but with South Korea's crashing birth rate this cant last too long!
I disagree. All K-Pop music is oriented to a specific age group. Music taste changes with age. For example, here in the U.S., radio stations don't play K-Pop because is not a genre that adults may listen to. Mainstream music may show numbers, as it supposed to be since all mainstream is manufacturated, but real art is still present, appreciated and will always find its way to connect with people at some point.
Real Art will always exist. It's about it being pushed away from the mainstream. Say, fifty years ago, a musical genius like Freddie Mercury could be a famous 'Pop' Star. That isn't true anymore
Thanks for exposing this Kpop Cabal....because it's really manufactured...nevermind. 😂 "Giving up your freedom, lives for superstardom"....yikes...CABAL.🔥
sad to say rock music is not that good nowadays...i still listen to underground stuff etc. but kpop music is ok it is just very toxic.
I love your channel man! I do quite a lot of talking on my channel but you articulate excellently! I wish I had that gift! I look forward to your next posts!
Thank you . Appreciate the kind words
I don’t identify IU as a K-pop artist. She is in the league of her own, Taylor Swift of East Asia.
She is Kpop artist whether you like it or not. Kpop is full of talented artists who don’t get recognized outside of South Korea.
And how is Bollywood or indian musical acts any different? It seem your country has a scary system to keep their talent under strict contact & schedule 🤡
When does the effort of an individual or individuals involved in songwriting, choreography, etc. cross over from art to product? You make a distinction between the two but by the end of the video it is unclear what the difference is. Rather, it seems you dislike the process so you don't want to give it any credit as art.
Actually the distinction between art and product is very clear. if you are optimising for profit, it’s a product. If you are optimising for excellence or to be honest not optimising at all, that’s art. This is not to say excellence is not required for a product. Often it is required such as in Pop music’s case, song writing that fits the brief perfectly and amazing production
@@ministryofguitar John Williams writes scores for movies. Your position is, he is not an artist? He does not create music that is art?
I like this debate. I think there isn’t a tangible way to tie film score composition to maximizing profit, beyond just asking the artist to do their best. So in this silo, art still managed to thrive
@@ministryofguitar John Williams often receives a percentage of the profit or revenue. In my opinion that is about as tangible as it can be. Also, how is writing music for a K-pop group with a certain concept so vastly different from scoring a film? The end goal is to make the listener feel something one way or another based on how they perceive the film or the group. Finally, I can’t think of anything more highly polished for an audience than everything that goes into creating blockbuster films. Profit is always a motive. Of course there are exceptions.
@@kks557nice . Two differences
1) Employer employee relationship. John Williams is relatively freelance. BTS or Black Pink. Obligated to employers with significant restrictions on personal behaviour and life
2) the Hollywood of John Williams era vs post Marvel Hollywood is very different. One of the chief arguments is that as capitalism is getting more sophisticated and better able to optimise for profit, it is slowly weaning out the uncertain nature of art. Art by definition is volatile,can easily blow hot or cold and public companies can scarcely afford such volatility in forecasting results . It used to live with Art earlier as they had no choice but slowly but surely commercial success is being dialed into a formula. In the business world we call it best practices .
Btw just in case you think this is my ‘opinion’, I’ve probably been in charge for more than a 100 million dollars spent in Production including short films over my Branding career
Oh, no thank you
I feel like you're trying to gatekeep what people should enjoy listening to. Which as a musician is a dangerous rabbit hole to go down. What you think as just a "product" can be incredibly artistic to another set of eyes and ears. Most people would disagree with your take. Otherwise, most people would still be listening to AC/DC and Metallica, but the truth is these are very niche genres now. The market always chooses the winners and losers. If you want to criticize the ethics of the k-pop industry, thats fine but you're basically saying its not good music and young people shouldn't listen to it compared to music of yesterday. Which is what every single generation has said about the next generation.
Perhaps I wasn't clear but my main criticism is the ethics. The Songs are well written and produced for the brief of mainstream Pop
@@ministryofguitar But you're also saying the art is lost and has been replaced as a product ie. its bad music. Which isn't necessarily true. You also say its bad news for people who like the "spirit of rock" whatever that is. Having perfect production, video quality, colour theory, aesthetics, etc etc does not take away from any artistic side, it really only adds to it and actually gives it multiple layers of artistry rather than the more one dimension of old school rock. It reminds me of the argument some boomer heads have against PRS guitars that its "too perfect" and "lacks soul" when really it just seems that they don't like something they're not familiar with. A lot of my friends really like listening to kpop music, whereas I for one, don't really vibe with it but I love watching the music videos or the performances. I agree the ethics are questionable. But thats mainly coming from our own westernized idea of what the world should be. I see it all the time in videos of young asian kids excelling at something, you have western white men and women always complaining about how the kid should be out playing and not practising their instrument. Can't do anything but shake my head. A lot of people, most people live in mediocrity and thats fine, but excellence requires sacrifice and its a sacrifice many are willing to take and even view it as a justified sacrifice. South Korea was poorer than many African countries just 50 years ago. It is a G7 country now with one of the most robust economies in the world. You don't get that by making everyone comfortable.
The music industry in the west has always been void of ethics, as has Bollywood. Its sad that art of all kinds has this side to it and that is not to say there should not be healthy change but you are isolating one genre and claiming water is wet. It does come across as gate keeping. But I also get the point you are trying to make overall.
@@lbguitar Alright but you literally cannot compare a group of 4 people or 1 person trying to make art vs. a team of like 50 (probably more) people writing, producing, playing the instruments for a song. If 4 people work together and try their best to be intentional the art they convey will be the expression of that 4 people, but if theres 50 songwriters and arrangers and people playing instruments and there are 4 seperate people that are just "the face" of the group and not heavily involved in the creation process, then the individualistic art expression disappears. Then, the art we are listening to is basically factory made high quality art produced by that team of 50 or so persons and most of the time, thats not what we want as an audience. We want to hear a story told through music and a story not manufactured like marvel movie sequels, but an authentic retelling of someones' experiences.
@povilasl5383 I honestly can't agree. A movie takes hundreds of people collaborating and bringing their talents to the table to produce a masterpiece. Within that large group, there are a handful of leaders that really choose the direction. That's the same as kpop. I can't discredit or dismiss what makes something artistic to you, of course and if your preference is more intimidate or indie story telling, that's great too. I enjoy indie games as well as AAA titles from big gaming developers. But I can't say for example like Red Dead Redemption 2 or the Witcher 3 is less artistic or a lesser experience just because more people were involved.
I find this TH-camrs view of Kpop disturbing and elitist. He claims to know what real art is. What makes him the authority on “ real art”? Is he a real artist? When the Beatles first came out, teenage girls screamed and loved them just like they do for many Kpop groups, and the “adults” called their music crap, not real music. So Beatles are not real artists? He just seems like he’s full of self importance. I love music from many genres including classical, baroque, reggae, dub step, jazz, torch songs, city pop, heavy metal, rock, new wave, Kpop, etc. But I don’t like most hardcore rap. Just because I happen not to like a particular genre of music, it doesn’t make it invalid or real art. He is just fixated on one aspect of Kpop that gets all the attention. If he bothered to dig deeper into Kpop, he’d find his “real artists”. This video is nothing but an ignorant rehash of what’s already been published by mainstream western media on Kpop.
If there is one thing that annoys me all over Asia it is definatly the horrible local music everywhere...
Your opinion doesn’t matter.
@@JohnLee-db9zt to me it does. Just like your opinion matters to you.
Classical local/regional/national music of Asian countries, be it china, india, japan, Phillipines, korea is pretty good. But the sad thing is that even it is dying day by day...😢
You need to quit paying so much attention to K pop!
J Rock is where it's at!
and they don't dance around like strippers in a Las Vegas strip Club
For the most part anyway.
Oh dude. I love J-Rock. And J-Metal
@@ministryofguitar Do you remember Shojin Knife?
J-rocks is totally a different animals. But dunno which is worse? K-pop or J-pop?
I never really care what people want to listen to. That is the essence of liberty. But I do get really annoyed by the rolling boom boxes with 1000 watts of bass shaking the pavement next to me at a stop light. What ever you play, just don't be an asshole with it.
I got used to a vehicle without a radio and really appreciate the quiet time I have in a vehicle. A time to think with no screen and no one talking. (And the occasional bit of full volume acapella vocal practice just for fun.) Now even having one I only turn it on late at night to help keep me more alert on long road trips, talk radio can keep me awake. Just too much garbage on the air.