Yeah honestly I don't understand how you can hate on the objectively best Johto starter. Cyndaquil is only the objectively best starter in PLA. Otherwise Totodile is far superior in every way.
Where are the Meganium fans aka the girls at?? Come on I've seen you everywhere recently just admit it already Meganium has a bland and boring design and thank goodness it is so weak becuz a pokemon looking like that deserves NO attention Def worst of the WORST starters ever (even stat wise)
@diegoxavier9107 it's more than that I like Roserade and I am a guy That thing just looks so slow and boring it makes me want to cry If working everyday at the office from morning until evening ALL DAY every day or being as timid and pacifistic as a whismur was a pokemon that would definitely be Meganium
Might be yelling out into the void a bit with this one - but I've always felt that gen 2 had the best sound design of the entire franchise. G/S/C specifically, not the remakes. The sound effects, and especially the music, just make SUCH effective use of the GBC's limited sound hardware, and are just such masterpieces of composition... I cannot think of a single other *thing* that so perfectly evokes a spirit of adventure as the gen 2 games do. The highs, the lows, the excitement, the melancholy, everything... the sound alone highlights gen 2 as one of the peaks of the franchise for me.
The music of Gen 2 has always stayed with me, the haunting Ruins of Alph theme, the "is-more-epic than-it-has-any-right-to-be" Rival theme, (which Soul Silver and Heart Gold somehow elevated to sound even more grandiose). The underground theme is great, the National Park's music is tranquility incarnate. Vs. Champion has this frenetic beat to it, which somehow comes to together to give it a larger than life feel.
I think it's important for people to realize that when these games came out, nobody saw them as "Gen 2". These were seen as "Pokemon but better". These were the sequals to RBY, and they only came out a few years later. Nobody was sick of Gen 1 Pokemon yet. Nobody was sick of Kanto yet. We were just happy to have more Pokemon games. There wasn't this huge distinction between Gen 1 and Gen 2 mons.
Okay, but the way they handled Pokemon like Slugma and Misdreavus would have been just awful if it had been done to gen 1 Pokemon in RBY, making these really weak earlygame Pokemon only available at the very end of the postgame. When you get Slugma there is nothing for it to do before it gains enough levels to evolve. They added a Ghost-type gym leader only for him not to use one of the only two ghost lines in the entire game and instead use Golbats.
@@alvedonaren Morty doesn't use Golbat. He uses Gastly, 2 Haunters, and Gengar. Nor does any trainer in the gym, all of them using Gastlys and Haunters.
@@alvedonaren Yeah, but when the games came out nobody cared about that. It was cool whenever a new pokemon showed up, but all that really mattered was having a new region to explore, and later getting to revisit the previous one. The fact that new pokemon kept showing up all the way to the end was just a bonus.
@@phyllotaxis I don't agree. Imagine being a Slugma or Misdreavus fan and being unable to use the Pokemon in an actual playthrough unless you catch it in a previous playthough and trade it over.
I can't stand the Feraligatr line. I'm aware 90% of that comes from struggling against it with the Typhlosion line I chose as a kid, but I'll forever stand against that blue crocodile
The Totodile line is the only fully realized one. (With Chikorita, excepted Bayleef). Though, the Pokemon that spent less time in the oven (Cyndaquil Line, and again Bayleef) ending up the favorites is on brand with the mess that is Gen 2
Nothing could have possibly been more unhinged and funny than going "Are the adolescent bird from these two different beloved children's cockfighting games the same? For answers, we turn to ancient philosophers."
Gen 2 is perfect if you were a dumbass 5 year old like me who barely understood reading and beat the entire game with a weepinbell using slam. So many weird random events and things and secrets, it really felt like anything was possible in those games.
@@easy_ninI mean maybe it's cuz I avoided as many spoilers as possible so it was the closest to playing Pokemon as a kid, but like I was playing it at like 15 fps on a low powered computer and it was the most fun I had playing Pokemon since I was a kid
@@ProfessorBopperit got me so genuinely angry. The suggestion that Pokémon is no more than a calculator and a spreadsheet, that emotional experiences of our Pokémon aren't literally exactly what Pokémon is about. The 52% figure come by so disingenuously by including Pokémon you can't use to fight the gyms or elite 4, the arbitrary and nonsensical decision to say that end stage evolutions are new Pokémon but pre evolutions aren't. If the goal was to incite rage congratulations.
@@zyaicob the following section (about one minute later) addresses all of those points (on your side no less) because no matter which way the data gets sliced, the numbers all come out technically true but not representative of the experience itself (so no, the goal wasn’t to incite you over a children’s game, you’re just easily incited)
I struggle to call GSC Kanto "podstgame" as so many do, because the way pokemon (and sometimes evolution items) are spaced out really makes it feel like it was balanced like a continuation of your team building, not a victory lap for your fully-grown champions. It's kinda weird to think about it like that because it reduces the Elite 4 to a mere stepping stone. Also, a funny thing I recently realized: Houndoom is SUCH a good indicator of the march of time and power creep in Pokemon. The reason it is such a late encounter in Gen2 (and night exclusive to boot) is likely because its stats and movepool are weirdly optimized compared to almost everything else in the game. Of course, it doesn't really matter (Onix vs Egg and all that, though I do find it a tad reductive) in the end, but back then, getting not one but TWO moves of your own type early that ALSO complement your stat spread was genuinely pure gold. Nowadays, Houndoom is just one of many (and competitively, it's long been outpaced despite being a topdog in Gen2 and good in Gen3) but back then, you barely got that. Gen 2 is the one Pokemon generation that actively resists being played fast, I feel. Its encounter levels are low (later on), its events (that you have to interact with for access to certain mons) are restricted to certain weekdays and mechanics like friendship and eggs are drawn out to be with you almost an entire game if you focus on them (my Golbat never evolve by the E4 in Gen2). It's relaxing if you are planning to play them for a long time or are a wide-eyed kid experiencing it for the first time, but in the realm of challenge runs and fast replays, GSC's focus on a "living" world you slowly experience as the week days pass and gift you with new things to see, doesn't fit in as well. I think that's also a big reason why Gen2 gets its modern reputation.
Yes. Most Pokémon fans call GSC Kanto "post game" just because the player defeats the Elite Four and Lance before most of the region is unlocked. If you take a closer look at the level curve, Clair and Janine use teams at levels similar to the sixth gym leader of most regions. The GSC Elite Four and Champion are at lower levels than every other main series Pokémon game because they were not designed to be the endgame final bosses. Blue's team is at levels most players expect the Elite Four and Champion to have. The rest of the Kanto Gym Leaders use teams we expect a region's seventh and eighth gym leader to have. Many people complain about how Houndour is only available in Kanto Route 7 at night. It sounds like bad game design for Umbreon to be the only Dark type Pokémon available in Johto but there were only five fully evolved Dark type Pokémon back then. The player had enough ways to defeat Morty without Umbreon. Gastly, Haunter, and Gengar are Ghost-Poison type, so the player can use Ground or Psychic type moves to hit them super effectively. A strong Water type Pokémon that knows Surf can dominate the Ecruteak Gym. "But Johto had three gyms weak to Fire type moves." Bugsy, Pryce, and Jasmine were all given teams that do not require the player to use Fire type Pokémon to defeat them. Dark-Fire type was OP in Gen 2 due to the lack of Pokémon that resisted both types. The only Pokémon that resisted both STAB moves from Houndour/Houndoom were themselves, Poliwrath, and Tyranitar.
Yes, that last paragraph is EXACTLY it. I've been playing Crystal recently and have logged 60+ hours because I keep finding things to do - daily events, apricorn farming, Pokémon hunting via specific times of day or days of the week, hatching baby Pokémon just because they're adorable. It's such a nice change of pace from the modern games. The Johto maps in particular are well-connected and quickly traversable without being bland, allowing you to constantly backtrack and enjoy doing so. Growth mechanics are slow and methodical, powerful moves are hard to come by. Overall the feeling is very cozy and welcoming.
@@snuffles504 Powerful moves are hard to come by but I would rather get them even if it means trading my Pokémon from Gen 2 to Gen 1. I used the Time Capsule to teach Golem Rock Slide in Pokémon Crystal. Another one I might want to try is teaching Weepinbell Razor Leaf four levels earlier. The weak trainers make it difficult for Weepinbell to reach Level 42 before the Elite Four. Pokémon Gold and Silver most likely wanted the player to trade their Level 38 Weepinbell to a Gen 1 game and evolve it there. One reason why Chikorita is my favorite Johto starter is because I love early game Razor Leaf.
I'm two minutes in and already I can tell I'm going to enjoy this far more than any of the million "Gen 2 was broken so I 'fixed' it" videos where they just go through and apply Pokemon Showdown logic to the gym leaders.
@@AnyThingWorxidk man, I’ve watched at least two different TH-cam videos that match that description perfectly. Good on ya if your watching habits didn’t have the algorithm recommend that stuff to you.
@@AnyThingWorxthey absolutely does. Not to a radical red exstent, but they do. They clearly do not make Gym leaders that are supposed to be beatable by 8 years olds.
“Are these the same Pokémon? Aristotle fans will say no” that’s exactly the moment I stopped what I was doing and aggressively clicked on the subscribe button.
Excellent video. Unless you were there, it would be hard to explain how there weren’t “generations” when G/S came out. It wasn’t an ongoing series, it was closer to an expansion pass than anything else. People loved seeing the original 150 Pokemon again. It is only after the following half dozen generations when “Gen 2” became (mis)understood as its own standalone “generation”. BW and BW2 had more time between their releases than RBY and GS, and it’s only really because of their naming conventions that we don’t see GS as sequels, and this judge their Pokemon distribution the same way.
This is probably the most succinct way to describe "Gen 2" in general, really. So much time has passed since Pokemon was still new on the scene that a lot of its conventions are kinda taken for granted now - the franchise has become such an entrenched part of pop culture that we no longer bat an eyelash at how its organized. That being said, the realization that RBY and GS came out within like, two years of each other gave me whiplash lmao
I played rby when they came out, but never got to play Gen 2. But I remember when it came out. I would sit in Walmart for hours with the players guide like, "there's day and night? There's a phone and radio? There's eggs? And male and female everything? And breeding? And this and that and this and that?!?!" You just can't explain that magic to people who weren't in the mud of pokemania during its first few years. The show, the gb games, the cards... and then THIS? Ridiculous. There is just no recreating that kind of wonder.
@@AnyThingWorx it contextualizes it. It's bad in the context of later games It's fun and decent in the context of the time period it was made in (not without error).
"Some pokemon, like sunkern and hoppip, wouldn't fit as boss pokemon for the same reason you wouldn't use pidgey or metapod or kakuna as boss pokemon" *pidgey and metapod and kakuna on screen as boss pokemon*
@@nc5958 I actually don't think that is what he meant. During that section, the whole discussion is about why so few gen 2 pokemon appear as boss pokemon. He then points out that it makes sense that some gen 2 pokemon wouldn't appear as boss pokemon because they are too weak (sunkern and hoppip), but then he jokingly invalidates this reasoning immediately afterword, referencing very weak kanto pokemon that also shouldn't be boss pokemon by that same logic, but somehow still are. He's saying that you might think sunkern and hoppip can't be boss pokemon because they're to weak, but if metapod and kakuna are allowed to be boss pokemon, they really should be fair game.
@@cyrusrule3164 I understand but there is no Grass Type gym in Johto. Fun Fact: More Gen 2 Pokémon are used by the Kanto Gym Leaders than the Johto Gym Leaders in GSC.
You know it's a bopper video when the prisoners in the cave become relevant. come on guys, these are two totally different pidgeottos. GOSH I love the egg versus onix comparison, it's so funny. I love these over-the-top deep dives and I love your justification of a game that most pokemon players just tend to overlook without preamble. Speak your mind king
Unknown is crap but I will ALWAYS love the ruins of alph becuz they gave me a secret Natu - that I evolved into Xatu one of my faves in the region because in anime Xatu went nuts and said Xa Xa Xa Xa Xa XaXa while striking weird poses 😂😂
See, this I can understand and agree with to some extent. I think a lot of the criticisms about gen 2 are based on expectations the series wouldn't begin to set set until gen 3, but HGSS are gen 4, not gen 2. They aren't "Pokemon 2" anymore and the series had a number of expectations that the remakes didn't meet.
Generation 2 was perfect for the time. As a kid with no internet, with no powerful consoles like Playstation or Xbox, the simple fact that you could play a game on Gameboy with events depending on the daytime or the day of the week was simply stunning. Not to mention the beautiful sound design, the continuous reminders to Red and Blue (stepping the first time to Kanto was a shock since we did not even have the idea this was possible) and, most importantly, the constant rise of "urban legends" related to the game and its special events that were arising between the kids playing, giving a genuine sense of exictement about the game. I am completely aware of the structural problems of this game (level curve, Kanto itself, bla bla bla) but as an adult fan who doesn't buy the new games i wonder: are the new games giving similar vibes to today's kids? Did gen VI or VII give a similar experience to the kids that played them as the first pokemon game?
Well I can't speak on the 3d era, but as someone who's first pokemon game as a kid was gen 5, that sense of wonder, of anything being possible, the fake rumors between my friends, I got to have all of that. And I really cherish getting to have that experience. I remember coming back to the ruins in White 2 where you meet the Lake Trio again and again because multiple friends were convinced there was a way to get to Sinnoh from there.
I have played Pokémon for almost 10 years, mostly Gen 3 and Gen 1, after some years of getting away from the franchise (Gen 2 and 4 were boring to me and skipped Gen 5) I played Gen 7 in a real 3DS (I have emulated games all my life) And it was like being a kid again, the story, the quirky dialogues and the breeze of fresh air. It was beautiful (I played Ultra Moon for the record).
Gen 2 was GBC at its finest. For all of its wonderful nostalgia, Gen 1 was reduced to a rough draft by the Gen 2 polish. This real time clock/calander element was absolutely insane at the time.
I just can't stand the 3D graphics of the new gens with their characters models and Pokémons that look like plastic. Last title I played was HG/SS and that was Peak Pokémon for me. The 2D era games will never look better than with G4-5 aesthetic. Then I saw the "Let's Go" engine, the game is beautiful I would love a remake/rework of G1-2 with this engine so much.
This video started off with what I assumed was pedantic um actually but rapidly turned into a very compelling look at data and numbers to back up WHY gen 2 feels like shit at times.
I feel like the cave allegory and how with the Special split any Pokemon is technically different in Gen 2 would've worked better with a Pokemon that didn't split its 50 Special into exactly 50 Special Attack and 50 Special Defense
Angel Hernandez must have heard your joke about him and announced his retirement lmao. You have done a service for not just the game of baseball, but for the entire world, and we thank you profusely.
If you haven't yet, you should take a look at shin megami tensei to get an idea of how disposable pokemon were probably supposed to be in Gen 1 and 2, I think most people who never played other creature catching games before pokemon don't realize how the genre felt at the time which causes a disconnect between how the players think the game is supposed to be played and how the developers thought the game was supposed to be played
As someone who casually thinks about game design a bit too much, you perfectly bottled a lot of thoughts I’ve been struggling to put into words at 55:25. Pokémon excels in having the Chemical X that a game needs to be fun instead of theoretically well made. Most TH-cam reviews focus on the objective design of a game instead of how it plays, but yours are a breath of fresh air. Here’s hoping this video pops off like the Onyx one, people need more quality like this.
I think we can have a mix of both. There's no need to min-max and streamline everything, but at the same time, being able to steamroll all the gym leaders by just clicking the most damaging super effective attack one after the other gets stale after a while. Having to do an extra bit of thought and winning with a more complex strategy can feel more rewarding and earned.
I agree with you 100%. Mons really needs a some more difficulty to make the player interact with its systems, but it still needs the vibes that make it what it is. Pokémon is mostly Chemical X while something like a well made Romhack is mostly concrete good design. Hopefully someday we get a good mix.
@@M4x_P0w3r Correct. And in some cases to add a bit of challenge you may not even have to do too many drastic changes. Just maybe change some of the NPC character's Pokémon's movepools. Maybe give some of them items as well here and there.
watching this video I didn't get the angel hernandez reference but right after I finished it he announced his retirement and now social media is blowing up with his bad calls
Gold/Silver was interesting because it kind of "fixed" or updated some of the issues with Red/Blue. One of the biggest examples was creating a proper Ghost Type attack, as well as creation of Dark Type, so that there was a legit counter to Psychics now. Splitting Spcl into attack and defense instead of a single attribute. Plus introduction of stuff like berries, breeding, and the crazy rarity of Shiny pokemon. As others have mentioned, it sort of functioned like an expansion patch of Red/Blue (not to mention updated portraits were generally much nicer looking).
29:00 But swapping out one of Jasmine's identical Magnemite for Skarmory WOULD change they way you play, because then you couldn't steamroll Jamine's team with Earthquake.
The first time I played Pokemon, I was introduced to bunny loophole by my late father. He became my best mentor and always gave me tips before entering the gym, unless that moment against Whitney. Yes, my father let me get tortured by Whitney's miltank. Also, he definitely bullies my Pokemon during battle. The most beautiful thing is that we exchange haunters to become gengars. Ps, i already got dratiny before Claire via trade and yeah i won against Claire easily at that time.
OK but if your favorite dinosaur is the pachicephalosaurus and they give you 20 of them, you can have a Ram Royal Battle, which would have made little me real happy.
3 minutes in and already getting philosophical. I love the TH-cam community. Also this video was super good! I like the quote of "I like Blue, but only because other colors exist". All around not the vibe I was expecting from the video, but I was thoroughly entertained anyways. Keep up the good work!
I refuse to experience Gen 2 as an adult. I have fond childhood memories that my min-max adult brain will replace. That being said, this rambling yet coherent nonsense was the breath of fresh air compared to modern overproduced TH-cam content. Thank you.
I played pokemon blue this week for the first time again after 20 years. Made a rule with myself: looks before minmax. Plus a list of 6 pokemons I think looks coolest and if they aren't strong enough I just level them up. (Emulator with 2x speed helps it not get tedious when grinding for level)
I used to play Stadium 2 a lot. Mostly for the minigames though. I never realized that the stadium rentals were super bad, so I thought it was a problem that I had as a player trying to get past the 3rd or 4th stages in the various challenge cups. Knowing that, I may have to relocate all of the gear needed to keep going. I have it all somewhere - the n64, the copy of Stadium 2, the gbc adapter pack for the controller and a copy of Silver I can play. Might be worth trying to conquer a challenge cup for once. Maybe...
I don't think I used a single TM over the course of multiple playthroughs of red because "what if I need it later", but I remember noticing how wonky the rental movesets are in part because of how they spread things across evolution lines. Lots of "do you want a Level 50 Charizard with Ember, or a Level 50 Charmeleon with Flamethrower", each of which was just a baffling proposition in its own way.
Gen 2 was my shit growing up and still is. I love all 3 starters so goddamn much but I like playing through with Meganium. Furret is my favorite pokemon and teaching Furret Sunny Day and/or Rain Dance can make for a lot of fun gameplay. Furret is quick and usually bulky enough to set up and tank a hit before switching out Hell, I've beat the entire elite four with a single Furret. Ice punch is a life saver
I actually remember when i first played gen 2 i got stuck on chuck and skipped him and hm fly to go fight jasmine instead, came back later at a much higher level and stomped him. I cherish that freedom and ease, so i dont mind the weird level curve in gen 2
That Sun flora part where you said it was the 49th strongest wild pokemon giving it a score of "NOT FUCKING WORTH IT" bro I wasn't expecting that part to be funny as it was lol definitely caught me off guard.. NEW SUB
I just clicked from this to the Gen 1 video--only to realize I had started and never finished that one. Wow, what a huge improvement! I'm really impressed by how much more pointed and thoughtful this one is. The scripting is better, the delivery is better, and there's an actual thesis here and logical progression. Nice work!!
Are those the shadows of toy dinosaurs in Plato's cave? I am unsure, but the idea is funny, and also fitting. The status of Gold and Silver as sophomore games does interesting stuff to them. We often tackle their legacy within the franchise based on expectations which necessarily had not formed yet. It seems likely this was the first pokemon game made with international markets in mind. In that way, looking at some of the more specifically Japanese betamon designs which didn't make it to gold and silver proper is an interesting thing to do. That's just speculation on my part though, I don't know anything about Game Freak in the 90s or otherwise. This was a more focused video topically, but I think the eclectic kinda multimedia approach Bopper and Nin took to it was fantastically cool! Oh, and yay! I got Cubone!
I can't give hearts to comments like Bopper, so imagine this is one from me. And the shadows are 2 different Pidgeotto print outs. You can see one at 43:56!
Just a small example of an annoying thing about Gen 2 is that barely any of the Gym leaders have Gen 2 Pokémon at all. Which makes it look like it hates itselfs even more.
There's no reason why Falkner, Jasmine, Pryce, and especially Morty should repeat Pokémon from the same evolutionary line when there were Johto Pokémon they could have used to add more variety.
As someone who got Crystal version for Christmas when I was 7, whose battery has long sinced died, Gen 2 will hold a special place in my heart. Gen 2 has its flaws, but I can still appreciate it warts and all.
I’ve gone through this and the previous video twice each now and I must say that I absolutely adore how you go about analyzing these games. You talk about a number of things the average player never even considers, while also doing the work to tackle assumptions about the games that have become all but fact to most. It is incredibly well researched and a treat to see! And as a fan of Johto more than most other games in this series, I do like how you pointed to the intended playstyle of the game being different from how later games are. Really drives home a disconnect between how people look back at these games and the issues with using only a modern lens for that. Also, must say, seeing Etrian Odyssey be used here both for visual examples and for the background music is quite nice! Going off your love of the quirks of the games (Gen 1 and 2) so far, I’ll hazard a guess that the 2nd EO is your favorite?
All the EO stuff was actually my idea and 2 is my least favorite lol. I just had footage of it for the "grinding" example on hand. You only get something like "capturing" a new "Pokemon" in EO4 anyway, which I really liked as an alternative option. If you're curious, I'd spontaneously say my ranking is Nexus>4>3>5>1(R)>2(R). Back to your Pokemon point, I think you're right with saying that most people accept one thing as a fact instead of looking for alternative ways to play. And points like "I want to have my favorites on Route 1! It is bad design!" doesn't really count for the old games because you weren't supposed to know which Pokemon are in the game and they are designed for a "first playthrough" and rumors between friends.
For your first argument, "using a [gen 1 pokemon] in gen two is fundamentally different than in gen 1 (because of the special split)." Is it? The only pokemon that were really effected by the split were high special pokemon that had one of those stats drastically changed and the hitmons. So really just the abra, ghastly, drowzee, tyrogue, staryu, and smoochum lines, as well as snorlax, tauros, and chansey. So 16 out of 150 pokemon are fundamentally different, just over 10%. I'd argue that there are differences between how you use gen 1 pokemon in gen 2, but it’s only because it's a different game, not because of an specific changes to the mechanics.
Dont forget that the argument is flawed to the core because you can just... transfer a pokemon from gen 1 to gen 2. In fact, a gen 1 shiny DOES exist, it can only be revealved if transfered to gen 2. Hence, they are the same pokemon
I've always thought that the primary problem that served to undermine the Gen II games was the fact that they weren't designed to replace the Gen I games, they were designed to complement them. You can tell by stuff such as no easy and reliable way to get evolution stones in Gen II while you can just casually purchase them in Gen I, or the fact that the TMs were, with very few exceptions, weak - unlike in Gen I. So in order to have pokemon with strong movesets, you had to trade them back to Gen I and teach them those TMs.
Exactly! The TMs in Gen 2 are overall better than the TMs in Gen 1 but the removal of the Body Slam and Rock Slide TMs made it more difficult to access them unless you choose Chikorita or use Lapras and train the Sudowoodo to Level 28. A handful of Gen 2 TMs are not available until Kanto.
@@nc5958 Well, I always thought the TMs in Gen I were considerably better. Rock slide, thunderbolt, ice beam, explosion... a lot of heavy hitters. Sure Gen 2 has earthquake and return, but many were poopers such as Rock Smash etc. Gen 1 had some poopers too, but overall if you wanted that Rock Slide on your Golem or even Rhydon, there was no bypassing Gen 1. And yeah, body slam was of course a huge deal. A modern comparison that I feel is very fitting is that Gen 2's TMs feel like the Gen 8 infinite use TMs in terms of their utility on average, while Gen 1's TMs feel more like the TRs from Gen 8. BTW what was said in this video kinda corroborates my original comment too - the fact that the new 100 Pokemon weren't the spotlight, but instead were treated as additions that were sometimes cumbersome to get while Gen 1 pokemon were still in the forefront clearly demonstrates that Gen 2 was considered as an addon, an extension. Every generation after 2 felt more like a soft reboot instead. I personally wouldn't mind if one of the future gens went Gen 2's route again if I'm to be honest, though to be fair we've been getting that the last 2 gens via DLCs.
@@SaturnineXTS People complain about the new 100 Pokémon introduced in Gen 2 not being the spotlight in Johto. They make it sound like Kanto is not in the game. "Kanto is the post game. Legendary Pokémon should have been locked to the post game. Not ones like Houndour, Murkrow, and Slugma." Your game will not break if your team is not complete before the Elite Four. They complain about the level curve not understanding that Johto is the early-mid game and Kanto is the late game. That is why the Johto Gym Leaders are so weak. Lance had three underleveled Dragonite because he was not the final boss of GSC. Team Rocket taking over the Radio Tower in Goldenrod City was the halfway point.
@@sebastiankulche I wish Gen 2 kept the TMs for Body Slam and Rock Slide. However, I don't mind using the Time Capsule to teach my Gen 1 Pokémon moves that they normally can't learn in GSC.
It's not even that Flamethrower is a comically late addition. I just went through Blue with a Magmar to see how it works and it gets Flamethrower for the Elite four. Thing is, Elite Four in Blue is close to the level of the 16th gym in Crystal. Pokemon feel powerless because they are at the "midgame" levels of a usual pokemon game. Then Black and White came out and redesigned this once again, and now we have pokemon like Hattrem that would evolve somewhere around Snorlax if they were in this game. Mareep reaches its final evolution before Hatenna evolves once. Truly gives you something to look forward towards in the character building sense as you said.
Saying that gym leaders would lose their identity if their teams weren't monotype is as much surfice level as their own teams. Their identity could be their strategies, not just "he sure likes rock pokemon". Just look at Pokemon Colosseum bosses: the brute one who spams earthquake, the manipulate one who uses status effects and the calculative one that uses rain + thunder.
They sort of did that in Diamond and Pearl for some of the important characters. Giving a Fire Type specialist and an Electric Type specialist Pokémon that learn Fire Punch and Thunder Punch despite not being Fire or Electric Types was their work around for that. Granted Platinum would later swap those Pokémon for actual Fire and Electric types but it's neat to think about. I think another better example would be Steven Stone. He is supposed to specialize in Steel Types but his team includes Rock Types and Ground Types on it in both the original games and their remakes. Funny too considering people considered Wallace an easier Champion to beat. Maybe Steven having a bit more Type variety helped him be more difficult for some players. Him having a fully evolved Psudeo Legendary while Wallace didn't probably helped too.
@@mjangelvortex I have always thought Wallace was more difficult to defeat than Steven. Wallace uses a full team of Water type Pokémon but his team is well balanced enough to prevent a strong Grass or Electric type Pokémon from sweeping his entire team. Even though Steven has a Metagross, his Aggron has a terrible moveset and the rest of his team is not that strong. The player will most likely have a strong Water type Pokémon that can defeat half of Steven's team.
As someone who played colosseum, you kind of proved the point with how one note those "identitIes" are. Does it not say something that the most memorable character is the guy who spams a single Pokemon line?
@@mjangelvortex The problem with diamond and pearl's approach is that it still frames them as type specialists, and end up highlighting just how dire the pokemon selection was for several types. It can be an interesting choice if Flint has a drifblim, because it's a hot-air balloon and evokes a theme. It's a less interesting one when it feels like they just genuinely did not have the pokemon to fill in the slots, when Flint is still framed as the fire elite four member, all because they arbitrarily locked several of the new pokemon to post-game trade evolutions.
I’ve always thought that the apparent lack of gen 2 pokemon in johto is because gen 2 wasn’t a new gen in the same vain that later games were new gens, but rather it was an expansion of the original games. The familiar 151 was the fundamental pokemon experience, and so the 100 johto pokemon were only meant to enhance the existing roster, not replace them as the primary set of pokemon to find. It’s like a movie sequel that adds a new character: the main character and his or her friends are still the focus, but the new character just adds a new dynamic to the group.
Loved the Onix video, listened to it a bunch of times when making weekend commutes to family here in CA. Really happy you made a video for Gen2, made my day
People need to remember - Pokémon was following up its smash success. If it didn’t include a bunch of Pokémon people recognized it felt like a big risk.
This video was phenomenal. I never thought I'd encounter someone who can simultaneously trash talk and defend the same things. It's like you're your own devil's advocate in the greatest way.
Gen 2 mons were harder to find in order to extend the long-term viability of the game's life cycle. Back then, information was difficult to access and evolution methods were obscure. Finding a 1% encounter Yanma was rare. Only found on one route. Some never saw it. Some did. It kept the mystery going. And that made it harder, and more satisfying, to "catch them all". It meant you could spend much longer time diving deep into the game and playing it over a longer time, because there was so much mystery to explore.
Back then the internet wasn't as mainstream but this was also the era in gaming where loads of big games would also have in-depth guidebooks made about them. Pokémon was no exception to this.
Gen 1 was released three years before and never had those "information" problems. If anything they should be more hidden but it somehow isnt. It sounds more like this wasnt intentional and more like the overambition of this game meant they couldnt properly set up more than 200 Pokemon.
i remember when ibwas around 10ish i had a vague memory when i was younger when we rented stadium 2 from blockbuster, so i began asking my mom to bring me to pawn shops looking for it. well after months of failure, my dad away from home due to military, i get a care package for my birthday. a black adam shirt, flash shirt, and pokemon stadium 2, i played that game so much as a kid, and opening that gift from my dad was one of my favorite memories, because i remember telling him on the phone how dissappointed i was that i could t find it. my dad is truly my hero and gen 2 is not my most played generation, but my favorite
lol top 50 competitive player has seen Unown so little he forgot that its one move is Hidden Power and not Ancientpower. Can't even get that omniboost bro
Obviously it is based on JPY, which makes the tail more like $10000, whcih is still very expensive and more of an exotic novel delicacy for rich people. To go even further, this is guaranteed to be for gameplay logic purposes because you can only hold 999999P, so that you could never buy it in the first place. If it wasn't for gameplay reasons, I'd guess that their price would be comparable to A5 beef. Also, € is cooler than $ because it has more colors, like the Pokemon stats have
Hey I just realized loved the different perspective you put from "wow the leaders mostly use gen 1 pokemon" to "but their aces are gen 2" and cementing that importantance with both anecdotes and general understanding of story. It's nice to see data change through Truely critical lenses. An amazing video, done by someone with real thought
Still in the middle of watching, but including Onix and Scyther in the list for Gen 2 Pokemon whose lines are obtainable before endgame is misleading. Their Gen 1 pre-evos are obtainable, but the Metal Coat needed to evolve them is not available until the postgame. EDIT: There's a reason I noted that I was still watching. Good on you for being thorough!
Im doing a replay of gold, my partner does silver, we are going to do crystal together... And we are having so much fun. Just walking around finding stuff, grinding, i am already over 55hours in in 2 weeks. And i just keep loving it. I grew up with gen 4 and 5... But gen 2, is my beloved
Being an oldster, back in the day you bought these games with a comprehensive guide that went over locations and catch rates, I still have mine. The internet wasn't really a thing then like it is now, it really was a different time. A lot of newer players also really don't appreciate the insane limitations of the hardware at the time. What we take for granted now was truly technologically difficult at the time. Like RBY is a glitchy mess that for all its faults it is amazing that it runs at all and crammed all those different mons, moves, etc. in. Loved your video essay, you earned a subscribe.
On that note: The "criticism" that Kanto is truncated is especially dumb since that's all due to the limitations of the cartridge. The team worked themselves to the bone just to get Kanto to fit on the cart at *all*. It was a gift to have it there. It was a technical miracle that it was there at all. But the team *had* to make it happen, because it was part of the core experience of the game. Even some of the difficulty curve can even be explained by the fact that Kanto *is* part of that curve--Lance is not the final boss of the game, *Red* is. Having the journey appear to be the same as the first (fighting Team Rocket, beating gyms and the elite four), only to realize that you're not the *true* champion and your real challenge lies elsewhere is a fundamental part of GSC's experience. It kept everything feeling fresh. Later games set the expectation that every game ends when you beat the champ (gen 9 was a lovely break from that). The game was and is a product of its time. No one cared about or even understood the expectations that later games would put on the series. And what it did give us was a sequel that built on (not just iterated off of) the first.
One note on Sunflora; it actually might be the best grass type in these games besides Chikorita. It gets good early grass stabs in razor leaf and mega drain, growth, and better stats than Weepinbel. And you can evolve it immediately upon catching it
And also, it gets (pretty early) the strongest grass move in the game, other than 2 turns solar beam, Petal Dance. Poor sunflora, sunkern gives it bad rep
I guess victreebel, exeggutor and bellosom just dont exist then? All of these are MOUNTAIN RANGES better than sunflora and chikorita (everything is better than meganium, a damn vielplume blows meganium out of the water)
@@halfpace1462 Vileplume, Exeggutor and Victreebel are difficult to evolve (post game in gold and silver, and anyone whose played crystal knows how wonky it is to get stones via poke gear). Even then, Gloom/Weepinbell don't get better grass stab than absorb/vine whip until past level 40, and Exeggutor doesn't even learn any early grass moves. It offensively functions more as a psychic type really. Compare that to Sunflora, which has better stats than all of those pre evolved leaf stone evolutions, gets razor leaf/mega drain at level 10, and petal dance at 31. It's pretty much immediately powerful and useful as soon as you obtain it in a way the others aren't. Also, Chikorita gets razor leaf at level eight, so definitely better than those other grass types too
@alexbrittonfilms fair arguments with the move pools not much to say there, tho subflora only has 20 more bst total than weepingbell. Ill also add getting sunflora isnt exactly easy as hell and still requires tons of work. I forget sometimes about gen 2s level curve making level 40 astronomically high For me the best addition gen 2 did by far was for bug types, like Heracross, fortresses and Scizor???? Absolutely amazing
@@halfpace1462 I've personally never found the bug catching contest difficult, but I've probably just gotten insanely lucky. Yeah, I actually just learned that forretress gets pin missile as an egg move and want to boot up a new game to try use that thing (never trained a forretress before)
(Typed as I watch the video and talking strictly Gold and Silver, not Cyrstal) I feel like part of the reason why "Gen 2 mons are underrepresented in their own generation" is due to distribution and obtainment. What isn't "locked" post-game requires active involvement with new systems. (Que me getting to the part where you explain this). Yeah pretty much. Never mind trade evolutions, if you don't headbutt, breed, or engage with even finding out when Swarms happen you're missing almost a quarter of the new pokemon. If you include the starters you don't pick and version exclusives you are missing over a quarter of them. The games suffer from being the generation after gen 1 and thus was fixing the stuff that was broken in the old games and the good stuff that was in it was moved forward and what was bad was left behind since gen 2 and gen 3 wasn't compatible. Even what was good in gen 2 is "bad" by today's standards because they're so old, but if it wasn't for those steps forward, we wouldn't be where we are today.
Yes. It feels like Gen 1 Pokémon are everywhere because a handful of the new Pokémon are not used by any trainers in GSC. I can 100% understand why a person might think Chinchou and Lanturn are Gen 3 Pokémon because no trainers used them in Gen 2. The player will never see them in GSC unless they use the Good Rod or Super Rod in places where they are available.
I feel like the initial argument is... pointless? The idea of it isn't bad, the splitting of the special stat in gen 2 does change every pokemon in some way. Most of the time, in incredibly minor ways, but in some cases in major ways (Chansey will never be as much of a genuine threat as it used to be, because it's special attack dropped off a crater). There is something to be said about it changing the texture of a pokemon between generations, making them feel new. But the problem with this argument, that includes incredibly minor changes as well as major ones, is that it's the case with every single pokemon in every single game. Every pokemon game changes the pokemon in some way, making it experientially different to catch and train them. An Espeon in gen 2 does not have access to the same moves, items or environment as an Espeon in gen 8. The gen 4 physical/special split, where and when you catch them, what other trainers have them, what future 'environments' whether their evolution item is early or late, etc, etc. Every pokemon, in every game, is not exactly the same as they were before. Which kind of makes it a moot point, or at the very least an unconvincing one, because later gens do not feel like they have the same kind of issue. I know it's not like, a serious argument, or anything. And you have much better arguments later, even if I don't agree with all of them. But I do kind of have to roll my eyes a little at it's inclusion. Idk, it's still a very enjoyable and interesting video, and I look forward to hearing your thoughts on some of the later games.
You can't imagine how devastated I was to discover my cartridge of original Silver crapped out in the years since I played it as a child. Luckily, this was also around the time SoulSilver came out, and I got that. So I could still play SOME version.
My favorite Pokemon romhack by far is a gsc hack called Fool's Gold and I think that's largely because it sort of adds the magic back to gen 2. Every Pokemon in the game has been given complete different type(s) and sprites and encounter rates and what kind of Pokemon you can encounter have been completely mixed up to compensate. My favorite example is being able to find a little yanma early as a rare encounter, it makes the little :3 face Along with that there are some secrets discoverable such as ab entire new town and routes and altogether it just gives gen 2 a lot of the wonder and mystique that it originally had that has been lost through the years of learning what the Pokemon in the game are, where they are, and every little secret in the game.
I checked it out and it indeed captures the magic we were talking about in the video and is also by far my favorite one, even before completing it. I think it is also the only one I have seen that isn't purely "battle-focused". I got to one of the new towns and when I say I'm not gonna spoil anything, you know exactly which one I mean... xD Thanks for pointing that hack out!
@@easy_nin that town is so cool! And yeah the battle focus isn't there like it is in other hacks which I'm personally really thankful, it feels like it has the gameplay sentiment that mainline games have and that allows for a lot of fun
Fun fact: My first play through of Pokemon Crystal was very interesting, I used Meganium, Forretress, Arcanine, Lanturn, Ursaring, & Espeon, it was very fun mainly due to the early Growlithe outside Violet City, & Teddiursa in Dark Cave
The whole argument about gen 2 pokemon not being in gen 2 probably started because of the gym leaders. Those are usually presenting new pokemon that the trainer cant obtain yet. During the first 5 gyms we fight a whopping... 1 gen 2 pokemon. Yeah.
Holy shit I never thought I'd see WAR implemented in a Pokemon Video. Somehow you bonded my two totally different interests in life. You have earned a like and sub
The Plato argument is moot because it's no different than the addition of abilities in gen 3, physical/special split in gen 4, hidden abilities in gen 5, interactions with the fairy type in gen 6, z moves in gen 7, dynamax in gen 8, and terastalization in gen 9. Sure, they all can function somewhat differently, but they aren't wholly unique and once you begin to understand the changes, it doesn't matter that much. That said, gen 2 is a sequel, not so much it's own unique generation as others are. Gen 7 is far worse with many gen 7 Pokemon having 10% or lower encounter rates, many have 5% or 1% encounter rates. Low encounter rates can make it fun to hunt for a handful of Pokemon, but gen 7 pushes that way too hard
I love Pokemon stadium 1&2. One can play red..blue...and yellow Using the transfer pak And can trade with other players using another transfer pak etc. You can also save your Pokemon to it as well. Part two can play both gen one and gen two.. As well as the other features. Save batteries have been a thing for awhile. Nes carts like Zelda used them. Basically ant cart style game that saved has them. Pokemon stadiums have them. You can get the battery changed at most retro game stores. Or buy the batteries.. Small circle batteries with metal arms. Buy a Nintendo screwdriver And do it yourself. I still play the Pokemon stadium games and the family games..its fun to play it with other people.
![[MV] A leap of faith...ความเชื่อใจครั้งสุดท้าย (From "Petrichor the series")](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/U1piZH2CNXA/mqdefault.jpg)
This comment section is how I learned Angel Hernandez retired
It gets more intriguing- apparently he was forced to retire and negotiated a payout with MLB.
@@_Sinduss Which one is that? I don't know the GSC source code
Dang I just saw a video about him on baseballdoesntexist
i was happy reading before but im so happy to read it on a random pokemon video that horrible man cant hurt us anymore thank god lol
Who?
This video is amazing, but you made the fatal error of assuming I care for the opinions of a Totodile hater
Yeah honestly I don't understand how you can hate on the objectively best Johto starter. Cyndaquil is only the objectively best starter in PLA. Otherwise Totodile is far superior in every way.
Where are the Meganium fans aka the girls at??
Come on I've seen you everywhere recently just admit it already Meganium has a bland and boring design and thank goodness it is so weak becuz a pokemon looking like that deserves NO attention
Def worst of the WORST starters ever (even stat wise)
@Borchert97 sadly not in speed and Feraligatr can't even move first to SAVE it's life
@@IcycleBicycleGuys can't like flowers?
@diegoxavier9107 it's more than that
I like Roserade and I am a guy
That thing just looks so slow and boring it makes me want to cry
If working everyday at the office from morning until evening ALL DAY every day or being as timid and pacifistic as a whismur was a pokemon that would definitely be Meganium
not even 5 mins in and mans quoting PLATO in relation to gen2 pokemon.
I know, isn't it great? Novelty, the spice of life, all that
Quoting plato quoting socrates even
@blueberriesinmycoffee1234 this isn't novelty, this is what we call an asspull
@@phillipanselmo8540 Ew, gross.
Love this so much
Might be yelling out into the void a bit with this one - but I've always felt that gen 2 had the best sound design of the entire franchise. G/S/C specifically, not the remakes. The sound effects, and especially the music, just make SUCH effective use of the GBC's limited sound hardware, and are just such masterpieces of composition... I cannot think of a single other *thing* that so perfectly evokes a spirit of adventure as the gen 2 games do. The highs, the lows, the excitement, the melancholy, everything... the sound alone highlights gen 2 as one of the peaks of the franchise for me.
I agree for the most part, but dragon’s den is an absolute NIGHTMARE to listen to
The music of Gen 2 has always stayed with me, the haunting Ruins of Alph theme, the "is-more-epic than-it-has-any-right-to-be" Rival theme, (which Soul Silver and Heart Gold somehow elevated to sound even more grandiose). The underground theme is great, the National Park's music is tranquility incarnate. Vs. Champion has this frenetic beat to it, which somehow comes to together to give it a larger than life feel.
For Johto, absolutely, for Kanto, not so much unfortunately
_FWAA SHA-SHA_
GSC has the best music of any game from nintendo imo
I think it's important for people to realize that when these games came out, nobody saw them as "Gen 2".
These were seen as "Pokemon but better". These were the sequals to RBY, and they only came out a few years later. Nobody was sick of Gen 1 Pokemon yet. Nobody was sick of Kanto yet. We were just happy to have more Pokemon games. There wasn't this huge distinction between Gen 1 and Gen 2 mons.
Okay, but the way they handled Pokemon like Slugma and Misdreavus would have been just awful if it had been done to gen 1 Pokemon in RBY, making these really weak earlygame Pokemon only available at the very end of the postgame. When you get Slugma there is nothing for it to do before it gains enough levels to evolve. They added a Ghost-type gym leader only for him not to use one of the only two ghost lines in the entire game and instead use Golbats.
@@alvedonaren Morty doesn't use Golbat. He uses Gastly, 2 Haunters, and Gengar. Nor does any trainer in the gym, all of them using Gastlys and Haunters.
@@AztecCroc May have mixed him up with Agatha. The point is still, that the Ghost gym leader just reuses Haunter instead of making use of Misdreavus.
@@alvedonaren Yeah, but when the games came out nobody cared about that. It was cool whenever a new pokemon showed up, but all that really mattered was having a new region to explore, and later getting to revisit the previous one. The fact that new pokemon kept showing up all the way to the end was just a bonus.
@@phyllotaxis I don't agree. Imagine being a Slugma or Misdreavus fan and being unable to use the Pokemon in an actual playthrough unless you catch it in a previous playthough and trade it over.
This video would be perfect, if not for the unwarranted Totodile SLANDER
Yeah that was out of pocket lol
Hey I know this guy
I can't stand the Feraligatr line. I'm aware 90% of that comes from struggling against it with the Typhlosion line I chose as a kid, but I'll forever stand against that blue crocodile
The Totodile line is the only fully realized one. (With Chikorita, excepted Bayleef).
Though, the Pokemon that spent less time in the oven (Cyndaquil Line, and again Bayleef) ending up the favorites is on brand with the mess that is Gen 2
Totodile is > chikorita, but < than cyndiquil
This guy referenced Greek philosophers and a publicly disliked MLB umpire in his video about Gen 2 Pokémon.
Incredible.
Bopper was a teacher so ig it makes sense, he's such an eloquent speaker tbh
Combines a bunch of my interest perfectly! Video games, history/philosophy, and sports all in one video! It’s really cool
Nothing could have possibly been more unhinged and funny than going "Are the adolescent bird from these two different beloved children's cockfighting games the same? For answers, we turn to ancient philosophers."
Gen 2 is perfect if you were a dumbass 5 year old like me who barely understood reading and beat the entire game with a weepinbell using slam. So many weird random events and things and secrets, it really felt like anything was possible in those games.
I would argue that inherently I am still that dumbass 5 year old with Weepinbell using slam
Gen 1 felt the same way for me. I could barely read at the time.
I learnt to read so I could play Pokémon and read comics
It wouldn't be any fun to run six of the same Pokemon. But three Donphan, one of whom is a robot? Now that's entertainment.
Maybe Gen 9 isn't so bad after all
@@easy_nin let's not get ahead of ourselves
@@easy_ninI mean maybe it's cuz I avoided as many spoilers as possible so it was the closest to playing Pokemon as a kid, but like I was playing it at like 15 fps on a low powered computer and it was the most fun I had playing Pokemon since I was a kid
The entire first argument is courtroom lawyer speech-tier BS, I love it
It's ironically complete and utter sophistry.
@@Vmac1394who am I trying to deceive with a tongue-in-cheek argument?
@@ProfessorBopperMe Specifically
Your trying to Gaskeep Girlgate Bossboss me into believing Onyx isn't real
@@ProfessorBopperit got me so genuinely angry. The suggestion that Pokémon is no more than a calculator and a spreadsheet, that emotional experiences of our Pokémon aren't literally exactly what Pokémon is about. The 52% figure come by so disingenuously by including Pokémon you can't use to fight the gyms or elite 4, the arbitrary and nonsensical decision to say that end stage evolutions are new Pokémon but pre evolutions aren't. If the goal was to incite rage congratulations.
@@zyaicob the following section (about one minute later) addresses all of those points (on your side no less) because no matter which way the data gets sliced, the numbers all come out technically true but not representative of the experience itself (so no, the goal wasn’t to incite you over a children’s game, you’re just easily incited)
I struggle to call GSC Kanto "podstgame" as so many do, because the way pokemon (and sometimes evolution items) are spaced out really makes it feel like it was balanced like a continuation of your team building, not a victory lap for your fully-grown champions. It's kinda weird to think about it like that because it reduces the Elite 4 to a mere stepping stone.
Also, a funny thing I recently realized: Houndoom is SUCH a good indicator of the march of time and power creep in Pokemon. The reason it is such a late encounter in Gen2 (and night exclusive to boot) is likely because its stats and movepool are weirdly optimized compared to almost everything else in the game. Of course, it doesn't really matter (Onix vs Egg and all that, though I do find it a tad reductive) in the end, but back then, getting not one but TWO moves of your own type early that ALSO complement your stat spread was genuinely pure gold. Nowadays, Houndoom is just one of many (and competitively, it's long been outpaced despite being a topdog in Gen2 and good in Gen3) but back then, you barely got that.
Gen 2 is the one Pokemon generation that actively resists being played fast, I feel. Its encounter levels are low (later on), its events (that you have to interact with for access to certain mons) are restricted to certain weekdays and mechanics like friendship and eggs are drawn out to be with you almost an entire game if you focus on them (my Golbat never evolve by the E4 in Gen2). It's relaxing if you are planning to play them for a long time or are a wide-eyed kid experiencing it for the first time, but in the realm of challenge runs and fast replays, GSC's focus on a "living" world you slowly experience as the week days pass and gift you with new things to see, doesn't fit in as well. I think that's also a big reason why Gen2 gets its modern reputation.
it's both a continuation (mechanically) and a victory lap (mechanically and especially narratively), but i would still not describe it as postgame
Yes. Most Pokémon fans call GSC Kanto "post game" just because the player defeats the Elite Four and Lance before most of the region is unlocked. If you take a closer look at the level curve, Clair and Janine use teams at levels similar to the sixth gym leader of most regions. The GSC Elite Four and Champion are at lower levels than every other main series Pokémon game because they were not designed to be the endgame final bosses. Blue's team is at levels most players expect the Elite Four and Champion to have. The rest of the Kanto Gym Leaders use teams we expect a region's seventh and eighth gym leader to have.
Many people complain about how Houndour is only available in Kanto Route 7 at night. It sounds like bad game design for Umbreon to be the only Dark type Pokémon available in Johto but there were only five fully evolved Dark type Pokémon back then. The player had enough ways to defeat Morty without Umbreon. Gastly, Haunter, and Gengar are Ghost-Poison type, so the player can use Ground or Psychic type moves to hit them super effectively. A strong Water type Pokémon that knows Surf can dominate the Ecruteak Gym. "But Johto had three gyms weak to Fire type moves." Bugsy, Pryce, and Jasmine were all given teams that do not require the player to use Fire type Pokémon to defeat them. Dark-Fire type was OP in Gen 2 due to the lack of Pokémon that resisted both types. The only Pokémon that resisted both STAB moves from Houndour/Houndoom were themselves, Poliwrath, and Tyranitar.
That’s some great perspective and analysis there!
Yes, that last paragraph is EXACTLY it. I've been playing Crystal recently and have logged 60+ hours because I keep finding things to do - daily events, apricorn farming, Pokémon hunting via specific times of day or days of the week, hatching baby Pokémon just because they're adorable. It's such a nice change of pace from the modern games. The Johto maps in particular are well-connected and quickly traversable without being bland, allowing you to constantly backtrack and enjoy doing so. Growth mechanics are slow and methodical, powerful moves are hard to come by. Overall the feeling is very cozy and welcoming.
@@snuffles504 Powerful moves are hard to come by but I would rather get them even if it means trading my Pokémon from Gen 2 to Gen 1. I used the Time Capsule to teach Golem Rock Slide in Pokémon Crystal. Another one I might want to try is teaching Weepinbell Razor Leaf four levels earlier. The weak trainers make it difficult for Weepinbell to reach Level 42 before the Elite Four. Pokémon Gold and Silver most likely wanted the player to trade their Level 38 Weepinbell to a Gen 1 game and evolve it there. One reason why Chikorita is my favorite Johto starter is because I love early game Razor Leaf.
I'm two minutes in and already I can tell I'm going to enjoy this far more than any of the million "Gen 2 was broken so I 'fixed' it" videos where they just go through and apply Pokemon Showdown logic to the gym leaders.
gen 2 is broken, and it still works anyway
never happened
nobody has ever done this btw lmao
@@AnyThingWorxidk man, I’ve watched at least two different TH-cam videos that match that description perfectly. Good on ya if your watching habits didn’t have the algorithm recommend that stuff to you.
@@AnyThingWorxthey absolutely does. Not to a radical red exstent, but they do. They clearly do not make Gym leaders that are supposed to be beatable by 8 years olds.
“Are these the same Pokémon? Aristotle fans will say no” that’s exactly the moment I stopped what I was doing and aggressively clicked on the subscribe button.
Its time, lets go youtube Algorithm, make it two in a row.
Edit: Don't you think I didn't hear that Yakuza 0 ost regarding steelix.
But did you hear the Yakuza 1 ost?
I will hear every yakuza ost from now on. Besides those that uhhh I forgot.
Excellent video. Unless you were there, it would be hard to explain how there weren’t “generations” when G/S came out. It wasn’t an ongoing series, it was closer to an expansion pass than anything else. People loved seeing the original 150 Pokemon again. It is only after the following half dozen generations when “Gen 2” became (mis)understood as its own standalone “generation”.
BW and BW2 had more time between their releases than RBY and GS, and it’s only really because of their naming conventions that we don’t see GS as sequels, and this judge their Pokemon distribution the same way.
Wow. That rly puts things into perspective. Thanks for sharing
This is probably the most succinct way to describe "Gen 2" in general, really. So much time has passed since Pokemon was still new on the scene that a lot of its conventions are kinda taken for granted now - the franchise has become such an entrenched part of pop culture that we no longer bat an eyelash at how its organized.
That being said, the realization that RBY and GS came out within like, two years of each other gave me whiplash lmao
I played rby when they came out, but never got to play Gen 2. But I remember when it came out. I would sit in Walmart for hours with the players guide like, "there's day and night? There's a phone and radio? There's eggs? And male and female everything? And breeding? And this and that and this and that?!?!"
You just can't explain that magic to people who weren't in the mud of pokemania during its first few years. The show, the gb games, the cards... and then THIS? Ridiculous. There is just no recreating that kind of wonder.
while that's amazing and all that doesn't excuse the awful game design
@@AnyThingWorx it contextualizes it. It's bad in the context of later games It's fun and decent in the context of the time period it was made in (not without error).
"Some pokemon, like sunkern and hoppip, wouldn't fit as boss pokemon for the same reason you wouldn't use pidgey or metapod or kakuna as boss pokemon"
*pidgey and metapod and kakuna on screen as boss pokemon*
Game Freak using Pidgey, Metapod, and Kakuna for gym leader teams was their decision. He meant Pokémon fans would not use them as boss Pokémon.
@@nc5958 I actually don't think that is what he meant. During that section, the whole discussion is about why so few gen 2 pokemon appear as boss pokemon. He then points out that it makes sense that some gen 2 pokemon wouldn't appear as boss pokemon because they are too weak (sunkern and hoppip), but then he jokingly invalidates this reasoning immediately afterword, referencing very weak kanto pokemon that also shouldn't be boss pokemon by that same logic, but somehow still are. He's saying that you might think sunkern and hoppip can't be boss pokemon because they're to weak, but if metapod and kakuna are allowed to be boss pokemon, they really should be fair game.
@@cyrusrule3164 I understand but there is no Grass Type gym in Johto. Fun Fact: More Gen 2 Pokémon are used by the Kanto Gym Leaders than the Johto Gym Leaders in GSC.
You know it's a bopper video when the prisoners in the cave become relevant. come on guys, these are two totally different pidgeottos. GOSH I love the egg versus onix comparison, it's so funny. I love these over-the-top deep dives and I love your justification of a game that most pokemon players just tend to overlook without preamble. Speak your mind king
23:51 Unown is so obscure that even the pro doesn’t know what it’s movepool is
that's because it's hidden. powerful, though
Not even obscure, that's a very common fact he didn't know.
@@SquishyOfCinder you missed the joke…
Unknown is crap but I will ALWAYS love the ruins of alph becuz they gave me a secret Natu - that I evolved into Xatu one of my faves in the region because in anime Xatu went nuts and said Xa Xa Xa Xa Xa XaXa while striking weird poses 😂😂
@@IcycleBicycle *Unown
This why I tend to not like HGSS as much because it barely does anything to fix any of the actual issues with Gen 2.
See, this I can understand and agree with to some extent. I think a lot of the criticisms about gen 2 are based on expectations the series wouldn't begin to set set until gen 3, but HGSS are gen 4, not gen 2. They aren't "Pokemon 2" anymore and the series had a number of expectations that the remakes didn't meet.
There are no issues. Keep hating 😊
Generation 2 was perfect for the time. As a kid with no internet, with no powerful consoles like Playstation or Xbox, the simple fact that you could play a game on Gameboy with events depending on the daytime or the day of the week was simply stunning. Not to mention the beautiful sound design, the continuous reminders to Red and Blue (stepping the first time to Kanto was a shock since we did not even have the idea this was possible) and, most importantly, the constant rise of "urban legends" related to the game and its special events that were arising between the kids playing, giving a genuine sense of exictement about the game.
I am completely aware of the structural problems of this game (level curve, Kanto itself, bla bla bla) but as an adult fan who doesn't buy the new games i wonder: are the new games giving similar vibes to today's kids? Did gen VI or VII give a similar experience to the kids that played them as the first pokemon game?
So im old and gen 2 is king. Scarlet and violet were the most fun ive had since a kid. Games might not be technical masterpieces, but theyre a blast
Well I can't speak on the 3d era, but as someone who's first pokemon game as a kid was gen 5, that sense of wonder, of anything being possible, the fake rumors between my friends, I got to have all of that. And I really cherish getting to have that experience. I remember coming back to the ruins in White 2 where you meet the Lake Trio again and again because multiple friends were convinced there was a way to get to Sinnoh from there.
I have played Pokémon for almost 10 years, mostly Gen 3 and Gen 1, after some years of getting away from the franchise (Gen 2 and 4 were boring to me and skipped Gen 5) I played Gen 7 in a real 3DS (I have emulated games all my life) And it was like being a kid again, the story, the quirky dialogues and the breeze of fresh air. It was beautiful (I played Ultra Moon for the record).
Gen 2 was GBC at its finest. For all of its wonderful nostalgia, Gen 1 was reduced to a rough draft by the Gen 2 polish. This real time clock/calander element was absolutely insane at the time.
I just can't stand the 3D graphics of the new gens with their characters models and Pokémons that look like plastic. Last title I played was HG/SS and that was Peak Pokémon for me. The 2D era games will never look better than with G4-5 aesthetic. Then I saw the "Let's Go" engine, the game is beautiful I would love a remake/rework of G1-2 with this engine so much.
"Pokémon is, regretfully, art." is the contextless quote of the day.
This video started off with what I assumed was pedantic um actually but rapidly turned into a very compelling look at data and numbers to back up WHY gen 2 feels like shit at times.
using advanced baseball stats to compare pokemon is why I'm here
the touhou project jumpscare was crazy i was about to fall asleep and suddenly i see clownpiece on my screen
I feel like the cave allegory and how with the Special split any Pokemon is technically different in Gen 2 would've worked better with a Pokemon that didn't split its 50 Special into exactly 50 Special Attack and 50 Special Defense
I'm glad I'm not the only person who absolutely hated the Pokemon Tower in Lavender getting revamped into a radio tower
it's so fucked up to think about
Yeah you're essentially bulldozing graves to build a radio tower. Seems disrespectful.
Angel Hernandez must have heard your joke about him and announced his retirement lmao. You have done a service for not just the game of baseball, but for the entire world, and we thank you profusely.
If you haven't yet, you should take a look at shin megami tensei to get an idea of how disposable pokemon were probably supposed to be in Gen 1 and 2, I think most people who never played other creature catching games before pokemon don't realize how the genre felt at the time which causes a disconnect between how the players think the game is supposed to be played and how the developers thought the game was supposed to be played
As someone who casually thinks about game design a bit too much, you perfectly bottled a lot of thoughts I’ve been struggling to put into words at 55:25. Pokémon excels in having the Chemical X that a game needs to be fun instead of theoretically well made. Most TH-cam reviews focus on the objective design of a game instead of how it plays, but yours are a breath of fresh air. Here’s hoping this video pops off like the Onyx one, people need more quality like this.
I think we can have a mix of both. There's no need to min-max and streamline everything, but at the same time, being able to steamroll all the gym leaders by just clicking the most damaging super effective attack one after the other gets stale after a while. Having to do an extra bit of thought and winning with a more complex strategy can feel more rewarding and earned.
I agree with you 100%. Mons really needs a some more difficulty to make the player interact with its systems, but it still needs the vibes that make it what it is. Pokémon is mostly Chemical X while something like a well made Romhack is mostly concrete good design. Hopefully someday we get a good mix.
@@M4x_P0w3r Correct. And in some cases to add a bit of challenge you may not even have to do too many drastic changes. Just maybe change some of the NPC character's Pokémon's movepools. Maybe give some of them items as well here and there.
"Pokemon is, regretfully, art"
This video is wonderful
watching this video I didn't get the angel hernandez reference but right after I finished it he announced his retirement and now social media is blowing up with his bad calls
Gold/Silver was interesting because it kind of "fixed" or updated some of the issues with Red/Blue. One of the biggest examples was creating a proper Ghost Type attack, as well as creation of Dark Type, so that there was a legit counter to Psychics now. Splitting Spcl into attack and defense instead of a single attribute. Plus introduction of stuff like berries, breeding, and the crazy rarity of Shiny pokemon. As others have mentioned, it sort of functioned like an expansion patch of Red/Blue (not to mention updated portraits were generally much nicer looking).
29:00 But swapping out one of Jasmine's identical Magnemite for Skarmory WOULD change they way you play, because then you couldn't steamroll Jamine's team with Earthquake.
I love when a typed fight breaks the rule, its like, hell yeah, this pokemon just fits the vibe of the leader
This video is over an hour but is so dense, it's crazy. Gonna need to watch this a couple times to let it all sink in
The first time I played Pokemon, I was introduced to bunny loophole by my late father. He became my best mentor and always gave me tips before entering the gym, unless that moment against Whitney. Yes, my father let me get tortured by Whitney's miltank. Also, he definitely bullies my Pokemon during battle. The most beautiful thing is that we exchange haunters to become gengars. Ps, i already got dratiny before Claire via trade and yeah i won against Claire easily at that time.
OK but if your favorite dinosaur is the pachicephalosaurus and they give you 20 of them, you can have a Ram Royal Battle, which would have made little me real happy.
You could even raise them all in a Ram Ranch
I'm a big fan of sauropods and I'd take 50 of them and stage massive grazing scenes
3 minutes in and already getting philosophical. I love the TH-cam community.
Also this video was super good! I like the quote of "I like Blue, but only because other colors exist". All around not the vibe I was expecting from the video, but I was thoroughly entertained anyways. Keep up the good work!
I refuse to experience Gen 2 as an adult. I have fond childhood memories that my min-max adult brain will replace. That being said, this rambling yet coherent nonsense was the breath of fresh air compared to modern overproduced TH-cam content.
Thank you.
I played pokemon blue this week for the first time again after 20 years.
Made a rule with myself: looks before minmax.
Plus a list of 6 pokemons I think looks coolest and if they aren't strong enough I just level them up.
(Emulator with 2x speed helps it not get tedious when grinding for level)
If only it got ancient power :(
Nobody will notice
@@easy_nin Yeah, I tried to tell him I'm no gen 2 expert 😅
@@xzeroxman I think it makes the interview part even better
@@xzeroxman your career is over
@@Anarchist2 😂
I used to play Stadium 2 a lot. Mostly for the minigames though. I never realized that the stadium rentals were super bad, so I thought it was a problem that I had as a player trying to get past the 3rd or 4th stages in the various challenge cups.
Knowing that, I may have to relocate all of the gear needed to keep going. I have it all somewhere - the n64, the copy of Stadium 2, the gbc adapter pack for the controller and a copy of Silver I can play. Might be worth trying to conquer a challenge cup for once. Maybe...
Remember to check the battery of the cardridge.
I don't think I used a single TM over the course of multiple playthroughs of red because "what if I need it later", but I remember noticing how wonky the rental movesets are in part because of how they spread things across evolution lines. Lots of "do you want a Level 50 Charizard with Ember, or a Level 50 Charmeleon with Flamethrower", each of which was just a baffling proposition in its own way.
For me that daycare egg hatched into a shiny igglybuff, it’s a 1 in 12 chance of a shiny, but it was my first. Always loved that sparkle.
Gen 2 was my shit growing up and still is. I love all 3 starters so goddamn much but I like playing through with Meganium. Furret is my favorite pokemon and teaching Furret Sunny Day and/or Rain Dance can make for a lot of fun gameplay. Furret is quick and usually bulky enough to set up and tank a hit before switching out
Hell, I've beat the entire elite four with a single Furret. Ice punch is a life saver
I actually remember when i first played gen 2 i got stuck on chuck and skipped him and hm fly to go fight jasmine instead, came back later at a much higher level and stomped him. I cherish that freedom and ease, so i dont mind the weird level curve in gen 2
That Sun flora part where you said it was the 49th strongest wild pokemon giving it a score of "NOT FUCKING WORTH IT" bro I wasn't expecting that part to be funny as it was lol definitely caught me off guard.. NEW SUB
I just clicked from this to the Gen 1 video--only to realize I had started and never finished that one. Wow, what a huge improvement! I'm really impressed by how much more pointed and thoughtful this one is. The scripting is better, the delivery is better, and there's an actual thesis here and logical progression. Nice work!!
You know? I have this never ending appetite for early gen pokemon retrospectives.
Soon
Gen 3 will probably be up on Friday or Saturday for the public
Are those the shadows of toy dinosaurs in Plato's cave? I am unsure, but the idea is funny, and also fitting.
The status of Gold and Silver as sophomore games does interesting stuff to them. We often tackle their legacy within the franchise based on expectations which necessarily had not formed yet. It seems likely this was the first pokemon game made with international markets in mind. In that way, looking at some of the more specifically Japanese betamon designs which didn't make it to gold and silver proper is an interesting thing to do. That's just speculation on my part though, I don't know anything about Game Freak in the 90s or otherwise.
This was a more focused video topically, but I think the eclectic kinda multimedia approach Bopper and Nin took to it was fantastically cool!
Oh, and yay! I got Cubone!
I can't give hearts to comments like Bopper, so imagine this is one from me. And the shadows are 2 different Pidgeotto print outs. You can see one at 43:56!
@@easy_nin Ooh, I see! That's even better then, ha!
Love the half-assed arts and crafts.
Just a small example of an annoying thing about Gen 2 is that barely any of the Gym leaders have Gen 2 Pokémon at all. Which makes it look like it hates itselfs even more.
Yeah he, uhh, talks at length about that in the video.
There's no reason why Falkner, Jasmine, Pryce, and especially Morty should repeat Pokémon from the same evolutionary line when there were Johto Pokémon they could have used to add more variety.
As someone who got Crystal version for Christmas when I was 7, whose battery has long sinced died, Gen 2 will hold a special place in my heart.
Gen 2 has its flaws, but I can still appreciate it warts and all.
My childhood memory of gen 2 was a magical one, and that’s what counts. Who cares if technically there were deficiencies
I’ve gone through this and the previous video twice each now and I must say that I absolutely adore how you go about analyzing these games. You talk about a number of things the average player never even considers, while also doing the work to tackle assumptions about the games that have become all but fact to most. It is incredibly well researched and a treat to see! And as a fan of Johto more than most other games in this series, I do like how you pointed to the intended playstyle of the game being different from how later games are. Really drives home a disconnect between how people look back at these games and the issues with using only a modern lens for that.
Also, must say, seeing Etrian Odyssey be used here both for visual examples and for the background music is quite nice! Going off your love of the quirks of the games (Gen 1 and 2) so far, I’ll hazard a guess that the 2nd EO is your favorite?
All the EO stuff was actually my idea and 2 is my least favorite lol. I just had footage of it for the "grinding" example on hand. You only get something like "capturing" a new "Pokemon" in EO4 anyway, which I really liked as an alternative option. If you're curious, I'd spontaneously say my ranking is Nexus>4>3>5>1(R)>2(R). Back to your Pokemon point, I think you're right with saying that most people accept one thing as a fact instead of looking for alternative ways to play. And points like "I want to have my favorites on Route 1! It is bad design!" doesn't really count for the old games because you weren't supposed to know which Pokemon are in the game and they are designed for a "first playthrough" and rumors between friends.
For your first argument, "using a [gen 1 pokemon] in gen two is fundamentally different than in gen 1 (because of the special split)." Is it? The only pokemon that were really effected by the split were high special pokemon that had one of those stats drastically changed and the hitmons. So really just the abra, ghastly, drowzee, tyrogue, staryu, and smoochum lines, as well as snorlax, tauros, and chansey. So 16 out of 150 pokemon are fundamentally different, just over 10%. I'd argue that there are differences between how you use gen 1 pokemon in gen 2, but it’s only because it's a different game, not because of an specific changes to the mechanics.
Can't believe you didn't mention Tangela which got it's Mental Defense cut from 100 to 40. It have even shown it in the Gen 1 video
@@easy_nin I hardly remember that tangela is a pokemon, much less what its gen 1 stats were.
Gyarados got hit pretty hard as well. Still a strong pokemon, but definitely at it's weakest in Gen2
Dont forget that the argument is flawed to the core because you can just... transfer a pokemon from gen 1 to gen 2. In fact, a gen 1 shiny DOES exist, it can only be revealved if transfered to gen 2. Hence, they are the same pokemon
I've always thought that the primary problem that served to undermine the Gen II games was the fact that they weren't designed to replace the Gen I games, they were designed to complement them. You can tell by stuff such as no easy and reliable way to get evolution stones in Gen II while you can just casually purchase them in Gen I, or the fact that the TMs were, with very few exceptions, weak - unlike in Gen I. So in order to have pokemon with strong movesets, you had to trade them back to Gen I and teach them those TMs.
Exactly! The TMs in Gen 2 are overall better than the TMs in Gen 1 but the removal of the Body Slam and Rock Slide TMs made it more difficult to access them unless you choose Chikorita or use Lapras and train the Sudowoodo to Level 28. A handful of Gen 2 TMs are not available until Kanto.
@@nc5958 Well, I always thought the TMs in Gen I were considerably better. Rock slide, thunderbolt, ice beam, explosion... a lot of heavy hitters. Sure Gen 2 has earthquake and return, but many were poopers such as Rock Smash etc. Gen 1 had some poopers too, but overall if you wanted that Rock Slide on your Golem or even Rhydon, there was no bypassing Gen 1. And yeah, body slam was of course a huge deal. A modern comparison that I feel is very fitting is that Gen 2's TMs feel like the Gen 8 infinite use TMs in terms of their utility on average, while Gen 1's TMs feel more like the TRs from Gen 8.
BTW what was said in this video kinda corroborates my original comment too - the fact that the new 100 Pokemon weren't the spotlight, but instead were treated as additions that were sometimes cumbersome to get while Gen 1 pokemon were still in the forefront clearly demonstrates that Gen 2 was considered as an addon, an extension. Every generation after 2 felt more like a soft reboot instead. I personally wouldn't mind if one of the future gens went Gen 2's route again if I'm to be honest, though to be fair we've been getting that the last 2 gens via DLCs.
@@SaturnineXTS People complain about the new 100 Pokémon introduced in Gen 2 not being the spotlight in Johto. They make it sound like Kanto is not in the game. "Kanto is the post game. Legendary Pokémon should have been locked to the post game. Not ones like Houndour, Murkrow, and Slugma." Your game will not break if your team is not complete before the Elite Four. They complain about the level curve not understanding that Johto is the early-mid game and Kanto is the late game. That is why the Johto Gym Leaders are so weak. Lance had three underleveled Dragonite because he was not the final boss of GSC. Team Rocket taking over the Radio Tower in Goldenrod City was the halfway point.
So basically i have to buy additional hardware, another game and another console to fix a game flaw. Ok.
@@sebastiankulche I wish Gen 2 kept the TMs for Body Slam and Rock Slide. However, I don't mind using the Time Capsule to teach my Gen 1 Pokémon moves that they normally can't learn in GSC.
It's not even that Flamethrower is a comically late addition. I just went through Blue with a Magmar to see how it works and it gets Flamethrower for the Elite four. Thing is, Elite Four in Blue is close to the level of the 16th gym in Crystal. Pokemon feel powerless because they are at the "midgame" levels of a usual pokemon game. Then Black and White came out and redesigned this once again, and now we have pokemon like Hattrem that would evolve somewhere around Snorlax if they were in this game. Mareep reaches its final evolution before Hatenna evolves once. Truly gives you something to look forward towards in the character building sense as you said.
A good tip for the Bug Catching Contest: for winning first place your pokemom (Pinsir or Scyther) must have a lot of HP left when catched.
Saying that gym leaders would lose their identity if their teams weren't monotype is as much surfice level as their own teams. Their identity could be their strategies, not just "he sure likes rock pokemon". Just look at Pokemon Colosseum bosses: the brute one who spams earthquake, the manipulate one who uses status effects and the calculative one that uses rain + thunder.
They sort of did that in Diamond and Pearl for some of the important characters. Giving a Fire Type specialist and an Electric Type specialist Pokémon that learn Fire Punch and Thunder Punch despite not being Fire or Electric Types was their work around for that. Granted Platinum would later swap those Pokémon for actual Fire and Electric types but it's neat to think about.
I think another better example would be Steven Stone. He is supposed to specialize in Steel Types but his team includes Rock Types and Ground Types on it in both the original games and their remakes. Funny too considering people considered Wallace an easier Champion to beat. Maybe Steven having a bit more Type variety helped him be more difficult for some players. Him having a fully evolved Psudeo Legendary while Wallace didn't probably helped too.
@@mjangelvortex I have always thought Wallace was more difficult to defeat than Steven. Wallace uses a full team of Water type Pokémon but his team is well balanced enough to prevent a strong Grass or Electric type Pokémon from sweeping his entire team. Even though Steven has a Metagross, his Aggron has a terrible moveset and the rest of his team is not that strong. The player will most likely have a strong Water type Pokémon that can defeat half of Steven's team.
As someone who played colosseum, you kind of proved the point with how one note those "identitIes" are. Does it not say something that the most memorable character is the guy who spams a single Pokemon line?
@@mjangelvortex The problem with diamond and pearl's approach is that it still frames them as type specialists, and end up highlighting just how dire the pokemon selection was for several types. It can be an interesting choice if Flint has a drifblim, because it's a hot-air balloon and evokes a theme. It's a less interesting one when it feels like they just genuinely did not have the pokemon to fill in the slots, when Flint is still framed as the fire elite four member, all because they arbitrarily locked several of the new pokemon to post-game trade evolutions.
3:24 is great there's really no one else doing it like you
I’ve always thought that the apparent lack of gen 2 pokemon in johto is because gen 2 wasn’t a new gen in the same vain that later games were new gens, but rather it was an expansion of the original games. The familiar 151 was the fundamental pokemon experience, and so the 100 johto pokemon were only meant to enhance the existing roster, not replace them as the primary set of pokemon to find. It’s like a movie sequel that adds a new character: the main character and his or her friends are still the focus, but the new character just adds a new dynamic to the group.
Loved the Onix video, listened to it a bunch of times when making weekend commutes to family here in CA. Really happy you made a video for Gen2, made my day
The thrill of finding new esoteric guys I've never seen before is why I like to play as many new montamers as I can get my hands on
Sprites and animations are so important for me, gen 2 aeroblast hits so much different than in other gens
Oh god yeah. Hyper Beam and Ice Beam. Its the Beam attacks they are so satisfying.
@@lewdawg5196 I'm feeling like genning dragonite with aeroblast in Crystal and doing a playthrough rn 😆
But most of the lore of Johto... Bellsprout Tower, Slowpoke well, red Gyarados... is about Kanto Pokemon
People need to remember - Pokémon was following up its smash success. If it didn’t include a bunch of Pokémon people recognized it felt like a big risk.
This video was phenomenal. I never thought I'd encounter someone who can simultaneously trash talk and defend the same things. It's like you're your own devil's advocate in the greatest way.
Brother were you born in 1998? All these references to crocodile hunter & jurassic park 3 are dredging up formative memories. Also gr8 vid
1996!
1996!
Lt Surge’s Raichu goes hard.
Raichu used growl.
Gen 2 mons were harder to find in order to extend the long-term viability of the game's life cycle.
Back then, information was difficult to access and evolution methods were obscure. Finding a 1% encounter Yanma was rare. Only found on one route. Some never saw it. Some did. It kept the mystery going. And that made it harder, and more satisfying, to "catch them all".
It meant you could spend much longer time diving deep into the game and playing it over a longer time, because there was so much mystery to explore.
Still a lot of work for a shitty pokemon though...
Back then the internet wasn't as mainstream but this was also the era in gaming where loads of big games would also have in-depth guidebooks made about them. Pokémon was no exception to this.
Gen 1 was released three years before and never had those "information" problems. If anything they should be more hidden but it somehow isnt.
It sounds more like this wasnt intentional and more like the overambition of this game meant they couldnt properly set up more than 200 Pokemon.
Awesome video!
I don't think I've ever disagreed more with an opinion in my entire life, for several reasons.
Keep the good work, you're very cool! :)
I have probably never seen a better comment for disagreement, thanks!
i remember when ibwas around 10ish i had a vague memory when i was younger when we rented stadium 2 from blockbuster, so i began asking my mom to bring me to pawn shops looking for it. well after months of failure, my dad away from home due to military, i get a care package for my birthday. a black adam shirt, flash shirt, and pokemon stadium 2, i played that game so much as a kid, and opening that gift from my dad was one of my favorite memories, because i remember telling him on the phone how dissappointed i was that i could t find it. my dad is truly my hero and gen 2 is not my most played generation, but my favorite
Did not click on this expecting Pokémon-Metaphysics. Right on.
lol top 50 competitive player has seen Unown so little he forgot that its one move is Hidden Power and not Ancientpower. Can't even get that omniboost bro
Dude at 0:02 selling you a snack for $1 MILLION when you could buy multiple houses with that instead
doubt
These are in pokedollar
Converted to $, by the bicycle standard, that’s maybe a hundred bucks
@@sumthinorother9615 Yeah, the money in the Pokémon games are more closer to yen than American dollars.
Obviously it is based on JPY, which makes the tail more like $10000, whcih is still very expensive and more of an exotic novel delicacy for rich people. To go even further, this is guaranteed to be for gameplay logic purposes because you can only hold 999999P, so that you could never buy it in the first place. If it wasn't for gameplay reasons, I'd guess that their price would be comparable to A5 beef. Also, € is cooler than $ because it has more colors, like the Pokemon stats have
@@easy_ninproof
Hey I just realized loved the different perspective you put from "wow the leaders mostly use gen 1 pokemon" to "but their aces are gen 2" and cementing that importantance with both anecdotes and general understanding of story. It's nice to see data change through Truely critical lenses. An amazing video, done by someone with real thought
Ah yes, Bird Keeper Lance, Flying type Champion.
39:41 "Tricks and nonsense is all that I have."
For some reason, this line really resonated with me.
If gen 2 hates itself so much, why did they make every match in OU I play take 100 turns? Checkmate Scholar Bop-It
Still in the middle of watching, but including Onix and Scyther in the list for Gen 2 Pokemon whose lines are obtainable before endgame is misleading. Their Gen 1 pre-evos are obtainable, but the Metal Coat needed to evolve them is not available until the postgame.
EDIT: There's a reason I noted that I was still watching. Good on you for being thorough!
Damn, the mental gymnastics you went through here are admirable.
Im doing a replay of gold, my partner does silver, we are going to do crystal together... And we are having so much fun. Just walking around finding stuff, grinding, i am already over 55hours in in 2 weeks. And i just keep loving it. I grew up with gen 4 and 5... But gen 2, is my beloved
Awesome coverage of Gen 2. Misdreavus is my favorite c:
38:45 Dark Pit's theme in the background based music choice
You are based
Being an oldster, back in the day you bought these games with a comprehensive guide that went over locations and catch rates, I still have mine. The internet wasn't really a thing then like it is now, it really was a different time.
A lot of newer players also really don't appreciate the insane limitations of the hardware at the time. What we take for granted now was truly technologically difficult at the time. Like RBY is a glitchy mess that for all its faults it is amazing that it runs at all and crammed all those different mons, moves, etc. in.
Loved your video essay, you earned a subscribe.
On that note: The "criticism" that Kanto is truncated is especially dumb since that's all due to the limitations of the cartridge. The team worked themselves to the bone just to get Kanto to fit on the cart at *all*. It was a gift to have it there. It was a technical miracle that it was there at all. But the team *had* to make it happen, because it was part of the core experience of the game.
Even some of the difficulty curve can even be explained by the fact that Kanto *is* part of that curve--Lance is not the final boss of the game, *Red* is.
Having the journey appear to be the same as the first (fighting Team Rocket, beating gyms and the elite four), only to realize that you're not the *true* champion and your real challenge lies elsewhere is a fundamental part of GSC's experience. It kept everything feeling fresh. Later games set the expectation that every game ends when you beat the champ (gen 9 was a lovely break from that).
The game was and is a product of its time. No one cared about or even understood the expectations that later games would put on the series. And what it did give us was a sequel that built on (not just iterated off of) the first.
Limitations doesnt excuse flaws for being overambitious. If anything they could had released GSC on the N64.
One note on Sunflora; it actually might be the best grass type in these games besides Chikorita. It gets good early grass stabs in razor leaf and mega drain, growth, and better stats than Weepinbel. And you can evolve it immediately upon catching it
And also, it gets (pretty early) the strongest grass move in the game, other than 2 turns solar beam, Petal Dance. Poor sunflora, sunkern gives it bad rep
I guess victreebel, exeggutor and bellosom just dont exist then? All of these are MOUNTAIN RANGES better than sunflora and chikorita (everything is better than meganium, a damn vielplume blows meganium out of the water)
@@halfpace1462 Vileplume, Exeggutor and Victreebel are difficult to evolve (post game in gold and silver, and anyone whose played crystal knows how wonky it is to get stones via poke gear). Even then, Gloom/Weepinbell don't get better grass stab than absorb/vine whip until past level 40, and Exeggutor doesn't even learn any early grass moves. It offensively functions more as a psychic type really.
Compare that to Sunflora, which has better stats than all of those pre evolved leaf stone evolutions, gets razor leaf/mega drain at level 10, and petal dance at 31. It's pretty much immediately powerful and useful as soon as you obtain it in a way the others aren't.
Also, Chikorita gets razor leaf at level eight, so definitely better than those other grass types too
@alexbrittonfilms fair arguments with the move pools not much to say there, tho subflora only has 20 more bst total than weepingbell. Ill also add getting sunflora isnt exactly easy as hell and still requires tons of work. I forget sometimes about gen 2s level curve making level 40 astronomically high
For me the best addition gen 2 did by far was for bug types, like Heracross, fortresses and Scizor???? Absolutely amazing
@@halfpace1462 I've personally never found the bug catching contest difficult, but I've probably just gotten insanely lucky.
Yeah, I actually just learned that forretress gets pin missile as an egg move and want to boot up a new game to try use that thing (never trained a forretress before)
(Typed as I watch the video and talking strictly Gold and Silver, not Cyrstal) I feel like part of the reason why "Gen 2 mons are underrepresented in their own generation" is due to distribution and obtainment. What isn't "locked" post-game requires active involvement with new systems. (Que me getting to the part where you explain this). Yeah pretty much. Never mind trade evolutions, if you don't headbutt, breed, or engage with even finding out when Swarms happen you're missing almost a quarter of the new pokemon. If you include the starters you don't pick and version exclusives you are missing over a quarter of them.
The games suffer from being the generation after gen 1 and thus was fixing the stuff that was broken in the old games and the good stuff that was in it was moved forward and what was bad was left behind since gen 2 and gen 3 wasn't compatible. Even what was good in gen 2 is "bad" by today's standards because they're so old, but if it wasn't for those steps forward, we wouldn't be where we are today.
Yes. It feels like Gen 1 Pokémon are everywhere because a handful of the new Pokémon are not used by any trainers in GSC. I can 100% understand why a person might think Chinchou and Lanturn are Gen 3 Pokémon because no trainers used them in Gen 2. The player will never see them in GSC unless they use the Good Rod or Super Rod in places where they are available.
I feel like the initial argument is... pointless?
The idea of it isn't bad, the splitting of the special stat in gen 2 does change every pokemon in some way. Most of the time, in incredibly minor ways, but in some cases in major ways (Chansey will never be as much of a genuine threat as it used to be, because it's special attack dropped off a crater). There is something to be said about it changing the texture of a pokemon between generations, making them feel new.
But the problem with this argument, that includes incredibly minor changes as well as major ones, is that it's the case with every single pokemon in every single game.
Every pokemon game changes the pokemon in some way, making it experientially different to catch and train them. An Espeon in gen 2 does not have access to the same moves, items or environment as an Espeon in gen 8. The gen 4 physical/special split, where and when you catch them, what other trainers have them, what future 'environments' whether their evolution item is early or late, etc, etc.
Every pokemon, in every game, is not exactly the same as they were before.
Which kind of makes it a moot point, or at the very least an unconvincing one, because later gens do not feel like they have the same kind of issue.
I know it's not like, a serious argument, or anything. And you have much better arguments later, even if I don't agree with all of them. But I do kind of have to roll my eyes a little at it's inclusion.
Idk, it's still a very enjoyable and interesting video, and I look forward to hearing your thoughts on some of the later games.
The guy from the Onix sucks video is back :)
Not every gen 1 Pokemon has different Special Attack and Special Defense tbf. Rhydon and Mew are examples
You can't imagine how devastated I was to discover my cartridge of original Silver crapped out in the years since I played it as a child. Luckily, this was also around the time SoulSilver came out, and I got that. So I could still play SOME version.
My favorite Pokemon romhack by far is a gsc hack called Fool's Gold and I think that's largely because it sort of adds the magic back to gen 2. Every Pokemon in the game has been given complete different type(s) and sprites and encounter rates and what kind of Pokemon you can encounter have been completely mixed up to compensate.
My favorite example is being able to find a little yanma early as a rare encounter, it makes the little :3 face
Along with that there are some secrets discoverable such as ab entire new town and routes and altogether it just gives gen 2 a lot of the wonder and mystique that it originally had that has been lost through the years of learning what the Pokemon in the game are, where they are, and every little secret in the game.
I checked it out and it indeed captures the magic we were talking about in the video and is also by far my favorite one, even before completing it. I think it is also the only one I have seen that isn't purely "battle-focused". I got to one of the new towns and when I say I'm not gonna spoil anything, you know exactly which one I mean... xD Thanks for pointing that hack out!
@@easy_nin that town is so cool! And yeah the battle focus isn't there like it is in other hacks which I'm personally really thankful, it feels like it has the gameplay sentiment that mainline games have and that allows for a lot of fun
Fun fact: My first play through of Pokemon Crystal was very interesting, I used Meganium, Forretress, Arcanine, Lanturn, Ursaring, & Espeon, it was very fun mainly due to the early Growlithe outside Violet City, & Teddiursa in Dark Cave
Only real ones know Angel Hernandez is why the Electabuzz always loose!
I prefer spacing my team out throughout the game. It's way more fun, especially since it makes the level curve smoother
time for another 1 hour long meal. lets go, i'm really loving this series bopper.
The whole argument about gen 2 pokemon not being in gen 2 probably started because of the gym leaders. Those are usually presenting new pokemon that the trainer cant obtain yet. During the first 5 gyms we fight a whopping... 1 gen 2 pokemon. Yeah.
Holy shit I never thought I'd see WAR implemented in a Pokemon Video. Somehow you bonded my two totally different interests in life. You have earned a like and sub
I sat my BW beginner ass down and *listened*
The Plato argument is moot because it's no different than the addition of abilities in gen 3, physical/special split in gen 4, hidden abilities in gen 5, interactions with the fairy type in gen 6, z moves in gen 7, dynamax in gen 8, and terastalization in gen 9. Sure, they all can function somewhat differently, but they aren't wholly unique and once you begin to understand the changes, it doesn't matter that much. That said, gen 2 is a sequel, not so much it's own unique generation as others are. Gen 7 is far worse with many gen 7 Pokemon having 10% or lower encounter rates, many have 5% or 1% encounter rates. Low encounter rates can make it fun to hunt for a handful of Pokemon, but gen 7 pushes that way too hard
There sprites were radically different from gen 1-2 we would never see that again until gen 5-6 Plato applies
I love Pokemon stadium 1&2.
One can play red..blue...and yellow
Using the transfer pak
And can trade with other players using another transfer pak etc.
You can also save your Pokemon to it as well.
Part two can play both gen one and gen two..
As well as the other features.
Save batteries have been a thing for awhile.
Nes carts like Zelda used them.
Basically ant cart style game that saved has them.
Pokemon stadiums have them.
You can get the battery changed at most retro game stores.
Or buy the batteries.. Small circle batteries with metal arms.
Buy a Nintendo screwdriver
And do it yourself.
I still play the Pokemon stadium games and the family games..its fun to play it with other people.