"Pokemon has a mysterious way of stirring the oldest memories of your life if you let it." My heart STOPPED when I saw the clock being set. I don't know what about that hit me but man. It hit.
HMs are important for “Adventure Feel” I think. Feels less like you’re on an adventure without them and more like you’re walking down a street to the next town over.
Same with the dungeons and one use tms. It's call backs to the traditional rpg core at the base of the the first 1-3 games. Past hoenn, many of these things get chipped away creating a more "pokemon" feel to the gane motifs. Some like it more, but I've always liked the trad rog elements more
The player could've been given a "Support" slot. A Support Pokémon can't be used in battle but can use HMs. Basically an HM slave that doesn't use a slot. The trick is you've still only got four move slots and there's usually 6+ HMs, so you'd have to swap the Support mon out. To make it a bit more than just a free HM slave, you could also give Support mons small party buffs. Now the player has to choose whether they want their Strength HM slave that gives a small bonus to shiny chance or their Cut HM slave that gives a small bonus to the chance Wild Pokémon will spawn with held items (or whatever - the bonuses would not be relevant to battle).
I do agree but I do think they could’ve achieved it without limiting the move sets of Pokemon. Like the hack, Pokemon Unbound had it so that you didn’t need to teach the Pokemon the move but just the HM and a Pokemon who could learn the move.
@@rdrrr: It pretty much already works that way. The games are easy enough that, at least for a casual playthrough, no one really needs ALL six slots for active battle. It's perfectly reasonable to create a balanced team that can handle almost any enemy in the game with just five or even only four Pokémon. The only difference is that in the actual game you also have the option of forgoing that "support" slot to instead spread out those HMs across an entire team. You can basically choose between having a smaller team with more moves, or a larger team with fewer moves. Although having said all that, it would have just been better if like Surf, or to a lesser extent Strength and Fly, all of the HMs were useful moves. Maybe not best in slot like Surf, but at least not unusable trash.
@@EmeralBookwise That's _mostly_ true although I'd argue Platinum and B/W are hard enough (or rather, the final bosses are hard enough) that you want all 6 slots In any case, it just doesn't "feel" good to have to devote 1-2 party slots to Pokémon that are "dead weight" in battle, even if it doesn't hurt you much in practice
In the end i really do feel like Pokemon is genuinely just a journey about what you make it out to be. Sure I gotta go stop team rocket, magma, or whatever, but my unique experience of Piss Dog the Lucario (I was in 4th grade) clutching it up against the Elite 4 *FEELS* unique to me. Its a story I can go and share with my boys at the back of the bus. And I think thats what captivated Pokemon for me throughout all the years.
I think the best generation for HMs is gen 5, except for the hm toutorial bush, they aren't required at any point until the post game, but using them will give you acess to optional mini areas and items. I think it was a very good middle ground between removing them and keeping them cause you would never be forced to use a crappy pokemon on you at all times.
Hard disagree. Carrying around a thief to open locks even if it is not great in combat is a big RPG staple and HM mons are the equivalent. It makes tea. Building a more xomplex process.
@@noukan42 Its literally an option in that game if you want, it just doesn't gate the game progress behind it. In older pokemon unless its your second playthrough, you can never afford to take your hm slave off the team cause you might just walk into a cave and the game will randomly throw a breakable rock at you for no reason. At the end of the day the reason hms are best in black and white is because its the game with the best area design, even if the map as a whole is is just a big circle, the individual areas are very very good.
@@noukan42 I will contribute to the cycle of eternity and say that I disagree! HMs fundamentally limit player choice when it comes to teambuilding both in terms of moves to use and also pokemon to move. For example, in my latest HeartGold run I used a Noctowl, which was also my only pokemon capable of learning Fly. Problem is, Noctowl is already not that good, but its special attack is WORLDS better than its normal attack. I only had room for 4 moves, and so I had to make the decision of either actively crippling my build for Noctowl, getting rid of Noctowl for a physical pokemon that can learn fly (something I did not want to do), or simply not using one of the best quality of life HMs in the game. Sure, games like say Baldur's Gate 3 and its application of the DND 5E systems do make a rogue basically mandatory for a LOT of things, but they also have both options to get around certain checks a rogue would be necessary for alongside a whole interesting set of combat mechanics for rogues to use even if they are subpar. All HMs do in pokemon is limit your party composition and punish the player even further for picking unoptimal pokemon.
@@noukan42 I think it's also worth mentioning that the Game does need to have that aspect in mind in its problems that it presents to the Players. I think more Pokémon Players would be willing to use a Bibarel Type Pokémon if there were a lot of extra rewards like Battles, Secret Bosses, loads of extra TMs, Missable Content and Cutscenes, powerful Pokémon etc. There are rewards, but it often feels like the people behind it just give you okay rewards that aren't always worth your time, Move Slot, or Pokémon Slot. I'm in full agreeance, though. I like it when I have to diversify my Team to tackle a Game's problems. Problem is the Game has to be built to support it and not do it halfway.
It was meant as a set up pkmn for my rain team. I had 2 of em 1st Knew Rain dance attract toxic dive.. 2nd Sweet kiss Protect Icy wind safeguard there very fast an can be very annoying.. there purpose is not to take your pkmn out but to disrupt plays. It’s everyone else on the team you’ve got to worry about..
I have no nostalgia for gen 3, I grew up with the sinnoh games, but the last part of the video where you talk about the feelings gen 3 evokes and the nostalgia is so beautifully written I can't help but completely understand
Just wanted to say, your retrospectives and ji_mothy's retrospective, in addition to having impeccable release timing in proportion to each other, have consistently provided excellent contrast to the opinions of each other while both being well thought out and spoken. I know it's not intentional, but it's really been enjoyable to listen to two contrasting retrospectives within weeks of each other with both containing valid points.
The main point of the video that the lack of HMs is why modern region design isn't as interesting is flawed, and can be illustrated through (imo) the worst designed region in all of Pokémon; Galar. The progression is still there as you still need to unlock, say, the water bike upgrade in Sword and Shield. The problem with modern pokemon isn't the lack of meaningful progression, it's the lack of places to use those acquired methods of progression outside of the exact moment it is given to you. Going back to SwSh, you get the water bike *as soon* as you get to the beach route. This isn't the fault of a lack of HMs, this is the fault of designing a region without any optional areas unlocked through progression, rather than solely through story.
@@2468h-s9e If the title and thumbnail are about the amount of water in Hoenn, then I'm going to assume the water based portion of the video (including the HM and exploration discussion) is the main point of the video.
certain pokemon being locked to late game just added to their mythos when we were kids, and it worked in tandem with trading. sending your friends cool level 1 pokemon to play through the game with was part of the experience for me.
Emerald is the best Pokémon game to date and I will hear nothing to the contrary, yes it's mostly nostalgic, but god damn that Gen III art style and sprites are a work of art even today.
Before even watching the video, I'm gonna go ahead and agree with the thesis statement that HMs are good. I believe that inconvenience adds texture. I happen to love the swamp and snow routes in Sinnoh, even though most people hate those mechanics, because in their own small way, they give me the unique experience of adversity, of the world itself feeling like it doesn't want me trudging on, unlike newer games that feel like a theme park designed to jerk off the player at all times. HMs do the same for me. Sometimes, you just can't explore a certain area, and you need to turn back to a PC and prepare better, and the whole time anticipation is building. It creates a sort of relationship or story arc between you and the environment, even if a minor one. In the best case scenario, they also forge a stronger bond between you and your Pokémon, calling on one of your own buddies to clear a path rather than some anonymous rental creature. Now, could they be done better so that they don't require you to permanently clog your team members' movesets with trash moves? Absolutely. But I wish they weren't completely eradicated as they were.
I also note that the best game that technically lacks HMs is the Paldea region, but that is specifically because you are supposed to go to various towns in Paldea as a college student on some sort of master thesis or something. The freely explorable world makes sense with the initial conceit of Pokémon Scarlet and Violet. I also say that HMs are technically absent because while you don’t need to them to traverse the world, they make movement through the world more convenient (at least if you are not going for the true ending), and the things that your mount is eating to gain movement options are, for some reason, abbreviable to HM (Herba Mystica).
I always loved how the HM made me feel that I was advancing with my Pokémon, discovering together, getting to new places... I always felt alone in my love of HMs...
This is now my favorite video on TH-cam. The compelling nostalgia and more of RSE that has always had a hold on me has been articulated so well! Thank you very much.
My favourite feature were the seasons in gen v, seeing a part of the world you couldn't access until there was water or snow really made the world feel alive and big
A detail of teams Aqua and Magma that I quite enjoy is that while fighting them throughout the game, it is easy to become complacent of their "weak" pokémon. Zubats, Poochyenas, Numels, and Carvanhas pose very little threat to any half-decent team. Archie and Maxie use the evolved forms of most of these same pokémon, so one would think that they too would be push overs, albeit a little higher leveled than their grunts. However, these two are some of the more formidable bosses that the player fights throughout the game save for the elite four and champion. Mightyena can ruin the destructive power of physical attackers with intimidate while Crobat can use confuse ray to turn the tides against a statistically stronger opponent, forcing the player to think on their toes and adapt their strategies. Both Sharpedo and Camerupt possess destructive power at the cost of falling prey to common weaknesses, ensuring that a properly prepared player can take them down with good preparation and team building. It reminds you that those hordes of grunts you took down were not trainers using weak pokémon, but instead pokémon blocked from their full potential by weak trainers. 32:21 Also hi Koishi
Gen 3 represents a time when Pokemon was still an rpg, not its own category of game we have now - "creature collectors" or whatever Palworld is billing itself as. That nostalgia we have for old pokemon games seems to hang around rpgs much longer and more intensely than other games from childhood, probably because of how many hours an rpg demands of the player. It is precisely because of the more obtuse elements, like HMs gating progress and absurdly silly braille puzzles that we spent so much time with these games to begin with. Gen 3 also came out at the perfect time to still be mysterious to a child mind. We didn't have Mew under the truck anymore, but Internet rumors about how to get the Mythical Jirachi and Deoxys were absolutely still a thing, and were made even more plausible by mechanics that went unexplained unless you had the $25 to shell out for an Emerald guide that told you the guy in the Space Center who told you how many successful rockets they'd launched was counting the number of weeks since you started your save, nothing more, nothing less. Gen 3 isn't my favorite, but I respect and understand your nostalgia for it, it weighs similarly on my mind how much it means to me compared to most other entries in the franchise.
Gen 3 also had even more insane things than truck mew. The entire Regi puzzle ckmes to mind. But then there are little things like Bagon in Meteor Falls.
Exactly, you can see this in almost all of the go to critiques of the first 3 games. Physical/special split, special/special split, bag limit, dark caves needing optional flash, weird competitive type balances, etc. Not saying they're perfect or anything. More saying that pokemon could've kept evolving that design philosophy and be credited as good game design in a different timeline
As a millennial I see Gen 3, retrospectively, as the games that solidified the Pokémon formula; the point at which the basic mechanics had been locked down and presentational competence had been achieved It's the point where Pokémon games ceased to feel scrappy and low-budget and started to feel like blockbusters (I know Gen 1 and 2 sold a crazy amount, but they feel really rickety. Gen 3 feels "solid".) Ironically the newer Pokémon games have reverted to feeling slapped-together, low budget and messy. Game Freak are in the odd position of being an AAA game company that lacks the staff, development budget etc. usually associated with that kinda clout
Honestly; the only problem with HM's was that they took one of your very limited moveslots. Needing them to unlock new areas; the way they shaped progression, how they influenced level design; that was great. You can see how much level design sucks in Scarlet/violet; you can go everywhere, so nowhere is special. I wish they had found a better solution than simply removing them.
@@Shinntoku it fundamentally doesn't work in scarlet/violet since its an open world 3D thing and you can just jump over most obstacles without much effort. There are only a handfull of places you can't immeadiatly reach; and only 1 or 2 that hide something interesting.
@@kakalukio there are tons of places you can't normally reach until your raidon has some HMs, your starting jump is tiny and can only get places by using exploits like backward jumping
@@Shinntoku Few of those places have any actual value though. Sure; there's some random plateau you can't reach. But does that really matter if all it has is a TM you can find in 3 other places? It's not like the older games where HM's blocked significant parts of the game.
I would suggest the removal of HMs as a problem is multi-faceted. Firstly, having mons to call to use them cheapens the experience as hm mons have a tendency to endear the player to them with their added utility. Second and thirdly, it both weakens discovery and limits game design, as most late game maps become tedious clean up quests, and otherwise unique and more gripping discoveries, such as finding legendries and rare items must be put in exclusively early game locations to maintain any value with them. The best implementation was with gen 5, where they really were optional and generally granted a rare item or access to new mons. To improve the mechanic, it would be best to either diversify Hms so they give more type options than primarily just water and normal and to give them either increased power or better effects or to instead implement a system designed to incentivize diverse team building by having special overworld actions available depending on pokemon type combinations present, though trying to make specific functions and animations for and account for these 18 different types would be very difficult and impractical.
I like HMs too. The thing is, I don't mind SM's Ride Pokémon system as a replacement. For me, HMs are good because they allow for interesting, organic traversal gates. Gen 5 has several places where your way is arbitrarily blocked by people just standing there for no real reason, and then they vanish for no real reason when the story lets you progress. Seriously, just put a stream in the way! This is at its absolute worst in SwSh, where Team Yell blocks you until you get the badge, and then they usually just disappear; and literally the only new traversal option you unlock in the whole game is the surfing bike. HMs would be really great if Pokémon had developed in a different direction - if exploration was part of the challenge, instead of entirely for discovery, then bringing an HM Pokémon would be a choice with merit, leading you to ask yourself "is it worth bringing a suck move to take a shortcut, or should I take the long way, risking running out of HP and PP before I get where I need to go?". This would obviously have to go alongside other design choices, like limited inventory space and an interconnected, almost Metroidvania-like world, but I think, in such a game, the people complaining about HMs would be told that they just don't get it. Was there another point in there? I forget. I guess I just like talking about what could have been, lol.
When i was playing gen 1 and gen 2 games i always felt like there is NOT ENOUGH water to enjoy surf. Sure you needed to surf a bit to reach one of the gyms but thats it. I was really happy when in gen 3 we had plenty of water to explore before we hit the land. It felt like new adventure, like i've unlocked new way of transport to reach many places. I got lost back then and that felt amazing because i found my way eventually and it made me memorize the map more. It felt like a challange to visit every corner and not miss out on any items or trainers. Like a survival mode where there is no pokemon center in sight. That was really cool. And sure i could always fly back to the start but that's the thing - i would have to navigate back to where i was once again and i wanted to avoid it if possible. And diving also felt good with the different music (and in very deep waters there were no enounters so you could chill for a bit) so overall i really enjoyed swimming for the first time in pokemon games! I am not sure if there should be more water, but certainly i wouldn't say there was too much of it. I say they hit the right amount of it.
As a devout follower of Gen 3 gospel You won me over with this video Over 5k hours played between R&S and I couldn't agree with a video more. Subbed lad
Same. Is it ironic to like Gen 3? The in game music, pokemon designs/sprites, and plot/post game content are all top tier (in my opinion) I was also 11 so this is prime nostalgia.
The design problems you mention are especially prevalent in RPGs. In other genres, the player will usually have access to all of the mechanics, barring things like power-ups, this means the devs can know exactly what the character can and can't do in any situation, and build content that challenges the player to use the tools they have in interesting ways. If mario, kirby, or Link need to set something on player, the player usually realizes it quickly and switches items or power-ups accordingly.
If I could change the HMs but keep the purpose: Make the HM ability useable outside of battle for smashing rocks and pushing boulders once you beat the respective gym for the unlocked HM, but don't make the move mandatory to have on your moveset. You get the feeling of adventure whilst not keeping the player hostage by having the move on a pokemon. Especially annoying in platinum where you need all the HM moves to climb mt coronet and take with you into the distortion world, it either means taking 5 team members and 1 HM pokemon or 6 team members and one with the HM moves which is not ideal no matter what.
I love your style of analysis! You combine both the nitty-gritty of Pokemon's details with the appeal of the games as single-player experiences better than anyone else I've seen. Usually you get just one or the other. Already anticipating what you'll say about Gen V, confident you'll add something real to the conversation
Thank you! I've been singing the praises of HMs for decades. A game that doesn't pose any obstacle for the player is fundamentally uninteresting; any game offers adversity (which doesn't mean it has to be hard) to the player, aka "what a game asks of the player"; it's just that, especially in the modern day, so many players are excessively focused on convenience and miss the forest for the trees, for this sort of thing.
The problem with hms is repetition. Losing a slot to rock smash is flavorfull and can incite harder decisions. But every generation loosing the same slot ia annoying. They could just have different ones every time! But that is work
Damn. I never thought there could be something that captures the feeling of nostalgia without being a personal source of nostalgia, but this video does it to a T. Also, for 31:00 I recommend buying Super Repels instead of Max Repels, it's more efficient for your in-game funds. I learned from a Let's Play years ago that the Max Repels cost about 200 more but only give you 50 extra steps
Really looking forward to further discussion of abilities if you do cover Gen 4 eventually. Pokémon has genuinely incredible battle systems that, at their best, make different species of Mon play radically differently. I’m interested in hearing what you have to say about that evolution in “mon feel” over time.
Gen 3 was my first proper Pokemon experience, back in 2005. The 'mons, music, and art hold up so well, but I can't play it for more than a couple of hours at a time because it's so slow. I don't know if modern Pokemon is just that much faster, or if my attention span's that much worse than it was 19 years ago, but I'm honestly finding it boring, and this is saddening. Yet another lovely retrospective from you, regardless :)
No, the Houndour and Larvitar issue is that Johto should have Johto Pokemon. And so many of them are stuck in Kanto or in the case of Sneasel and Larvitar, behind the Kanto region. Also, Game Freak realised that it was an issue and corrected it in future games. That's why you don't get Rattata in the Hoenn early game.
That was never an issue on release, because "gen 2" was a sequel. People are retroactively assigning expectations to a series where the novelty was things like color and sprite animations. Having the new pokemon be rare was "good" game design in that context, it's only going back to the games later that we've decided it was "bad" game design.
Finally someone standing up for HMs! HMs really felt like you were working with your pokemon to explore the world, and its so rewarding to have cut when you come across a cut tree or rock smash when you come across a smashable rock, etc. Part of teambuilding for me is having each of my pokemon have an HM so each can contribute to exploring the region. If we were going to fix HMs, just make one change: Make a OVERWORLD-ONLY FIFTH MOVESLOT just for HMs. So your scizor can have cut without losing a move slot.
I think a good middle ground for hms is something that some romhacks do: just make them forgettable. You're still presented with the challenge of getting mons that can use them which pushes the player to stay flexible, but you don't get the sucky feeling that comes with basically having a dead move slot until you get access to the move deleter. Alternatively, a romhack called Pokemon Recharged Yellow makes it so you don't have to TEACH a pokemon an hm to use it, but you still need to have a pokemon that would naturally learn the move in your party. I think either of those cases would be effective in getting rid of the main sore point with HMs while getting the benefits they create within the game design
It's worth noting that in RSE, you never need Dive and Waterfall at the same time. Also, by the time you are given Dive, you also have Fly and access to the Move Deleter. I usually just run 1 water type on my team who knows Surf and Dive, but after the 8th gym I fly to the Move Deleter and swap out Dive for Waterfall.
Great video, thought-provoking as always. I think the main reason the critique of the map holds water (eh?) is that its harder to justify tedium in a medium as interactive as video games. Paintings and films simply need to be experienced, whereas all fulfillment from games comes from play. And it can be hard to maintain the facade of the endless springtime of youth presented by the sea when you know that all that springtime anounts to is an encounter table of five or so underwhelming pokemon. Still love gen 3 though, frfr ngl.
At the point that you get surf, you can have a huge number of repels. I think it's personally amazing how water in Hoenn is used, much better than any other gen, because it doesn't just feel like a gameplay mechanic or a one off thing.
The infamous "Too much water" Statement was referencing *Water type Pokemon* in the Gen 6 Remake of Gen 3 - besides being an intentional clickbait blurb.
Gen 3 is full of mystery and intrigue in all its locations and hidden mechanics, the music is bombastic and hopeful and sort of sad sometimes, these games are the best the series has ever looked in regards to both the Pokemon designs themselves and the world they live in; the vibes are immaculate in Hoenn. It's peak. Cool vibeo. :)
11:51 Counterargument I suggest you play other monster collector JRPGs that design their games and numbers to avoid that issue and still reward exploration and discovery. Dragon Quest Monsters makes it so you can fuse your way up to strong stuff that is easily far more powerful and broken in their own systems than Tyranitar. Getting a Gemslime or Dragonlord is available to the player if they put forth the training and effort like Pokemon's lore puts such emphasis on as well. You are also rewarded fir it long term cuz boss battles are way harder than what you get from Pokemon games. Yo-Kai Watch gives you a free ingame gacha where you can easily get a bunch of Rare S Ranks but the game has far slower level growth than Pokemon and high Rank monsters have even slower level growth, so they are not going to carry you. Even then, that game ALSO has way harder boss battles than Pokemon too. Yo-Kai Watch also has far more set piece and worldbuilding flavor on par with the Kecleon example. Both games give the player far more freedom and arrange the numbers so gratification and customization cause less issues.
A Gen 3 thing you overlooked is Gardevoir via early Ralts, something Gen 6 lets you do with Kalos while also giving Gible right at the midgame, so you have two metagame staples that just mash the game to bits as soon as like gym 6 or 7 when they get fully evolved, the free Lucario, the Snorlax encounter early, Kalos just gives you stupid talent freely
This was a very different perspective and I enjoyed hearing about it. The appeal for pokemon for me has always been pvp and the battling mechanics. So learning about the appeal of exploration as a single player RPG game was very eye opening and different.
I actually think if they made a seperate game for pvp pokemon and kept the mainline games exclusively single player, both camps would benefit. Competitive players wouldn't have to grind to be able to play, and the campaign wouldn't be held back by streamlining meant only to make pvp more convenient.
these are really good videos. i like the way you approach these games holistically, its a nice change of pace from how they're usually discussed. i dont always agree with you but i think you are using a compelling framework.
I have been preaching this for so long! The exact reason I miss HMs is because of them unlocking more and more of the map to explore. The shining, perfect example of why Hoenn does it best is how when you go through Petalburg Woods you might see the right section thats innaccessable due to a ledge and a cut tree. Once you beat Roxanne and pick up the optional Cut HM, you'll have to back track through Petalburg Woods, now with the ability to cut those trees (located on the north side so it will be at the start of the back track) and go through a new section with a lot of goodies like a Miracle Seed for your Treecko or Shroomish. Almost every HM is like this and will unlock new areas with new items for previous areas, giving you so many reasons to revisit areas after you pass through once, making them more memorable. Once I started doing Key Item Randomizers it really exemplified how great the map design is, what with every run being completely different based on a variety of things like when I get Cut, Rock Smash or Strength, among other things
The HM I get most excited to use isn't even an HM- it's Dig. It's not that great, just the same thing as a free escape rope, but it makes me FEEL like a genius for thinking to use it. I think a lot of the actual HMs could benefit from having similarly niche but satisfying uses of their own.
@@eightcoins4401 no, Dig takes you back to the entrance of any cave or dungeon-like structure. It only works in those locations. Teleport does NOT work in those locations, instead only in the overworld, and returns you to the last Pokemon Center you visited.
pissed off that people hated hoenn for having "too much water" and then they made a whole hawaii-themed region with no water routes likely because of this
I think a good compromise for HMs would be needing a Pokémon whole is CAPABLE of learning it in order to perform the move in the field, rather than having to actually dedicate a move slot. I see it as a win-win; it allows players to keep all their slots to actually useful moves and Pokémon, whilst still allowing for HM puzzles and progression
I really enjoyed the video, but as someone who didn’t play emerald until I was nearly an adult, I don’t feel the same nostalgia towards the game a lot of people do. I am a big fan of HMS, as well as emerald, but I do genuinely think they could have been done better. Making concessions on your team to travel the region is, to me, not a good way to enjoy the game, and neither is making your game over 40% encounter tiles with nothing of particular rarity or strength most of the time. I can appreciate the game being a snapshot of a different time, but I do think there were fine tuning adjustments that could have been made that don’t subtract from the game in any way but make the player experience more enjoyable.
If you want a Pokemon earlier than usual, I think you're supposed to try and see if you can trade for one! If you want a Beldum, maybe a friend already has one, and can breed one for you, perhaps in exchange for a rare Ralts you found. This is especially easy with the modern games, since one trip to the GTS gives you a unique sidequest to complete in exchange for your Pokemon (Pokemon Home has the GTS free).
Finally, some love for Castform! One of my favourite Hoenn Pokémon. I've always loved Hoenn's sea routes because they give me a feeling of adventure, almost like I'm a pirate on the high seas. They're also important to the game's lore because of the land vs sea theme.
Saphire was my first time playing pokemon as a little kid. I can still remember my Sceptiles MOveset: Leaf Blade, Cut, Flash & False Swipe. Turns out with a moveset that bad no amount of grinding will make the Elite 4 easy so I said goodbye to my pokemon and started the entire game again and started with a Blaziken instead and learnt from my mistakes giving it a proper moveset of different powerful attacking moves. If HMs didn't exist I wouldn't have this memory so I think they did more good then harm to the game.
@@dragonslayerbond my sceptile was Leaf Blade Agility detect Secret Power. The One I had Emerald moves were Dragon breath Giga drain Cut Crunch…,My Machoke knew both strength and Rock Smash,rock slide,bulk up Linoone knew Cut Thief Headbutt Dig Swampert ice beam Surf Rock smash Earthquake …had a Wailord with Dive Rest Mist Surf With fly I had a Tropius Raquaza and salamence that was on my team tho Salamence Fly Fire Blast Hyperbeam Dragon Claw if I can recall I had quite a few Pokémon I didn’t use on my team regularly that randomly had the move surf or strength like I pretty sure there as High as they were level wise due to proximity an completing Pokédex lol off top of my head I had a Tentacruel Golduck Walrein all which knew surf kinda came about as a sort of inconvenience but I’m glad I caught em through otherwise I wouldnt hav3 ever used them …Pinsir Vigoroth Heracross had strength
in the case of switching around pokemon in a party, too many people got accustomed to emulator speed up so they end up treating the game as what basically is just a team building simulator. its also why too many people just hack in rare candies and ignore at least 60% of the game just to make a boss rush.
Its because in no jrpg has grinding ever been as painfully boring as in Pokemon. This has been an issue since Gen 1 that isnt fixed to this day. Most fun gotta be Shin Megami Tensei Strange Journey Redux. Throwing on Auto Battle and then Fast Forward. Doesnt make the game any easier since its SMT. People often confuse the tedium of braindead grinding with challenge.
im not saying its a challenge or whatever, im saying people ignore what the game expects the player to interact with, there's a reason why the meme "pokemon fans don't know how to read" exists. also about grinding, all early rpgs were notorious for being VERY slow, pokemon was even kinda fast in comparison, only after a certain point rpgs tried to make battles go faster (id say around 2008)
I'm pretty sure that the vast majority of people who play with speedups or rare candy hacks have already played the game as intended, and they are _replaying_ it in a different and challenging way. They are skipping the parts they already know (story, route layouts and leveling) to get to the parts that are relevant to the challenge.
The way I would implement HMs would be to either 1. You unlock abilities but you need specific Pokemon in your party to perform these abilities (water type for surf/waterfall/dive/whirlpool, flying for fly/defog/cut?, and fighting or normal for strength/rock smash/rock climb) 2. Have a system like ride Pokemon but if you teach a Pokemon an HM then that Pokemon is displayed when a HM is used (like how in ORAS you can fly with either the Eon Flute or with one of your party members that knows fly) The key is to allow players to freely travel across the region with as little as a single Pokemon but also give them the option to use their own Pokemon to clear obstacles or for travel
I think it's funny that most first-take opinions on game mechanics are some combination of {objective statement about the mechanic's design} and "and that's a good/bad thing". The HM argument is always fundamentally "HMs limit your team composition and thats a good/bad thing", but the challenge of the individual game and the map design must be factors in the argument. I love this video.
I love emerald version it's a game I replay very often. I often nuzlock, or just do a vanilla playthrough, there are a few issues upon replay. The biggest one is that it's a lot of water type pokémon that are not spread out properly throughout the water routes. If you have water pokémon on your team they do not have a good move until after gym 5 when you get surf. Most likely your water pokémon you have on your team will have all three HMs or have an HM friend getting rid of your sixth party slot. Like I said I love this generation, the only few things that I would change is adding the physical special split so dark type pokémon can actually take advantage of their typing, a lot more water pokémon to each route for variation Increasing the options per route of older pokémon for diversity Giving pokémon a more diverse power scaling moves. For example lotad definitely takes a short end of the stick for both typings until much later in the game. In my playthrough I usually just breed one in another game and transfer it over with better moves. Benefiting from the extra XP gain
AMEN to the HM! Solutions with drawbacks are interesting! "jank" and "drawbacks" are interesting! Devs solving the player's problems for them is boring. Plus, having an HM connects me to my pokemon in ways that using items just... doesn't. When I got the flute to call a Latios to fly me around in ORAS I was sad, because I had no more reason to use a flying type on my team over any other type, plus I just didn't care about the Lati as much as I cared about my own Swellow, who now I was questioning their purpose on my team over a stat-wise better beat stick.
0:27 - Liked and Subbed; nothing truer has been spoken. 11:27 - I wish I could like and sub more than once. 14:08 - "Bad" Pokémon are more important than any other arbitrary category of Pokémon. [Anywhere in the Tate and Liza section] - Double Battles are why Colosseum is the best Pokémon. 27:30 - This had better segue into "Why Pokémon Colosseum is the Greatest Pokémon Game" soon 🤔 31:00 - "Use another?" would have probably saved Gen 3 in the eyes of most casual players 🙃 32:51 - As a kid I was so ready for the allegory for the Japanese land reclamation projects even if I didn't have the full context then. I really wish games after Ruby and Sapphire were as 🚨 political 🚨 34:21 - Sun and Moon would have been so much better if the travel between islands was a greater focus like in Pokémon 2000 🤷🏻♀ 35:28 - 🔥🔥🔥 exactly what children's media should do
i think, at least in gen 3, EVs and natures are actually not intended to deepen competitive gameplay. my biggest reason is the third, related new stat effect, IVs being “individual values”. it feels like it was a way to make each individual pokemon more unique from others of its species. some beedrils are stronger than others, and some are faster than others, both due to the way they hatched, and the way they’ve been trained
Honestly, if the games were designed around having HM moves and then make them be like tools or something so they dont limit your moveset would be the best middle ground. I get thats kinda what they did with the ride Pokemon in gen 7 and 9 but the overall map design didnt really utilize it anywhere near as good as gen 3 and 4 did
Gen 3, with the introduction of abilities that effect battles and the overworld alike, the introduction of contests that rely on stats built up by taking care of berries on the overworld, and the little details like reflections in puddles and footsteps in sands, among many other elements, still represents my favorite marriage of theme and ludonarrative in the entire series. They even answered the water encounter rate problem by giving you the solution in the soot produced by Mt. Chimney being exchangable for the black flute. (Don't buy repels!)
Felt a bit weird about the HM discussion and I just realised that it assumes the player already knows how much they're going to need HM moves in the immediate future. Yeah, sure you could box your dive/waterfall pokemon upon reaching Victory Road if you've read the strategy guide, but I certainly wouldn't.
Same. There were interesting design decisions that made the game fun to play. For example, the first half of Hoenn limits counters to the Electric and Fire Type gyms without trading in Pokémon or TMs from another Gen 3 game.
@@nc5958 the game felt bigger, and I liked how it zig zagged back into itself. Then all the divint spots, it always felt "I havent seen this before", then emerald adding a good deal of stuff I remember being kike 10 and thinking how amazing it was. I love Gen 1, but gen 3 and the art design will always be my favorite.
Pokémon Sapphire Save Video: th-cam.com/video/sG6et1KwlC4/w-d-xo.html&
Wario Land 4 music from the trash level I believe
this is team aqua propaganda
Team Aqua would have a social media presence today. Imagine Archie shitposting on X-formerly-Twitter and having an ironic (?) following
Common Team Aqua W
ok Meowth
@@ZingoBananaaMAXIE DID NOTHING WRONG🗣🔥🔥💯
"Pokemon has a mysterious way of stirring the oldest memories of your life if you let it."
My heart STOPPED when I saw the clock being set. I don't know what about that hit me but man. It hit.
Read this as he was saying it. Weird
Did ya go up and down the stairs and around the room about 60 times before you figured it out because you didn't read the dialogue?
We finally did it. Now I can go to the box and store my Waterfall animal.
Make sure they keep tackle
this video was really cool, but why was there a blank screen at 32:21
@@Anarchist2 That's easily the funniest joke I have heard all month
HMs are important for “Adventure Feel” I think. Feels less like you’re on an adventure without them and more like you’re walking down a street to the next town over.
Same with the dungeons and one use tms. It's call backs to the traditional rpg core at the base of the the first 1-3 games.
Past hoenn, many of these things get chipped away creating a more "pokemon" feel to the gane motifs. Some like it more, but I've always liked the trad rog elements more
The player could've been given a "Support" slot. A Support Pokémon can't be used in battle but can use HMs. Basically an HM slave that doesn't use a slot.
The trick is you've still only got four move slots and there's usually 6+ HMs, so you'd have to swap the Support mon out. To make it a bit more than just a free HM slave, you could also give Support mons small party buffs.
Now the player has to choose whether they want their Strength HM slave that gives a small bonus to shiny chance or their Cut HM slave that gives a small bonus to the chance Wild Pokémon will spawn with held items (or whatever - the bonuses would not be relevant to battle).
I do agree but I do think they could’ve achieved it without limiting the move sets of Pokemon. Like the hack, Pokemon Unbound had it so that you didn’t need to teach the Pokemon the move but just the HM and a Pokemon who could learn the move.
@@rdrrr: It pretty much already works that way. The games are easy enough that, at least for a casual playthrough, no one really needs ALL six slots for active battle. It's perfectly reasonable to create a balanced team that can handle almost any enemy in the game with just five or even only four Pokémon.
The only difference is that in the actual game you also have the option of forgoing that "support" slot to instead spread out those HMs across an entire team. You can basically choose between having a smaller team with more moves, or a larger team with fewer moves.
Although having said all that, it would have just been better if like Surf, or to a lesser extent Strength and Fly, all of the HMs were useful moves. Maybe not best in slot like Surf, but at least not unusable trash.
@@EmeralBookwise That's _mostly_ true although I'd argue Platinum and B/W are hard enough (or rather, the final bosses are hard enough) that you want all 6 slots
In any case, it just doesn't "feel" good to have to devote 1-2 party slots to Pokémon that are "dead weight" in battle, even if it doesn't hurt you much in practice
I've been saying this about real life for years, but apparently that just makes me an "eco terrorist"
An ecoterrorist of Team Aqua, to be more precise
Archie did nothing wrong
In the end i really do feel like Pokemon is genuinely just a journey about what you make it out to be. Sure I gotta go stop team rocket, magma, or whatever, but my unique experience of Piss Dog the Lucario (I was in 4th grade) clutching it up against the Elite 4 *FEELS* unique to me. Its a story I can go and share with my boys at the back of the bus. And I think thats what captivated Pokemon for me throughout all the years.
I feel like PissDog would be good friends with my Cluckup the Blaziken back in the day 😂
I think the best generation for HMs is gen 5, except for the hm toutorial bush, they aren't required at any point until the post game, but using them will give you acess to optional mini areas and items. I think it was a very good middle ground between removing them and keeping them cause you would never be forced to use a crappy pokemon on you at all times.
Hard disagree. Carrying around a thief to open locks even if it is not great in combat is a big RPG staple and HM mons are the equivalent. It makes tea. Building a more xomplex process.
@@noukan42 Its literally an option in that game if you want, it just doesn't gate the game progress behind it. In older pokemon unless its your second playthrough, you can never afford to take your hm slave off the team cause you might just walk into a cave and the game will randomly throw a breakable rock at you for no reason. At the end of the day the reason hms are best in black and white is because its the game with the best area design, even if the map as a whole is is just a big circle, the individual areas are very very good.
@@noukan42 I will contribute to the cycle of eternity and say that I disagree! HMs fundamentally limit player choice when it comes to teambuilding both in terms of moves to use and also pokemon to move. For example, in my latest HeartGold run I used a Noctowl, which was also my only pokemon capable of learning Fly. Problem is, Noctowl is already not that good, but its special attack is WORLDS better than its normal attack. I only had room for 4 moves, and so I had to make the decision of either actively crippling my build for Noctowl, getting rid of Noctowl for a physical pokemon that can learn fly (something I did not want to do), or simply not using one of the best quality of life HMs in the game. Sure, games like say Baldur's Gate 3 and its application of the DND 5E systems do make a rogue basically mandatory for a LOT of things, but they also have both options to get around certain checks a rogue would be necessary for alongside a whole interesting set of combat mechanics for rogues to use even if they are subpar. All HMs do in pokemon is limit your party composition and punish the player even further for picking unoptimal pokemon.
@@FDLX it does. I am saying that limiting teambuilding is actually a good thing, not that it doesn't limit it.
@@noukan42 I think it's also worth mentioning that the Game does need to have that aspect in mind in its problems that it presents to the Players. I think more Pokémon Players would be willing to use a Bibarel Type Pokémon if there were a lot of extra rewards like Battles, Secret Bosses, loads of extra TMs, Missable Content and Cutscenes, powerful Pokémon etc. There are rewards, but it often feels like the people behind it just give you okay rewards that aren't always worth your time, Move Slot, or Pokémon Slot.
I'm in full agreeance, though. I like it when I have to diversify my Team to tackle a Game's problems. Problem is the Game has to be built to support it and not do it halfway.
"The worst decision Pokemon has ever made as a game series is removing HMs"
Based take, INSTANTLY on board.
6:34 Hey, don't be mean to Lovedisc ; they can be useful much more often (by mugging them).
Nice reference lol
Three times is still twice more than any other individual Luvdisc is going to be useful.
It was meant as a set up pkmn for my rain team. I had 2 of em
1st Knew Rain dance attract toxic dive.. 2nd Sweet kiss Protect Icy wind safeguard there very fast an can be very annoying.. there purpose is not to take your pkmn out but to disrupt plays. It’s everyone else on the team you’ve got to worry about..
I have no nostalgia for gen 3, I grew up with the sinnoh games, but the last part of the video where you talk about the feelings gen 3 evokes and the nostalgia is so beautifully written I can't help but completely understand
Never hated HMs as a concept but the inability to forget them without going to a move deleter has always bugged me
don't want kids soft-locking themselves
Very much agree. If you could delete them freely, or at least before Lilycove, I think most people wouldn’t mind them nearly as much
i was not expecting a reference to French New Wave cinema but i suppose that's on me
You get real opinions on this Channel from a real human. Goes hard👾
Just wanted to say, your retrospectives and ji_mothy's retrospective, in addition to having impeccable release timing in proportion to each other, have consistently provided excellent contrast to the opinions of each other while both being well thought out and spoken. I know it's not intentional, but it's really been enjoyable to listen to two contrasting retrospectives within weeks of each other with both containing valid points.
Couldn't have typed it better myself- I love seeing this sort of re-evaluating bit by bit here.
The main point of the video that the lack of HMs is why modern region design isn't as interesting is flawed, and can be illustrated through (imo) the worst designed region in all of Pokémon; Galar. The progression is still there as you still need to unlock, say, the water bike upgrade in Sword and Shield. The problem with modern pokemon isn't the lack of meaningful progression, it's the lack of places to use those acquired methods of progression outside of the exact moment it is given to you. Going back to SwSh, you get the water bike *as soon* as you get to the beach route. This isn't the fault of a lack of HMs, this is the fault of designing a region without any optional areas unlocked through progression, rather than solely through story.
So true bc hms make it interesting to go back to spots u been to see new stuff
Did we watch a different video? How is "modern region design isn't as interesting because of no HMs" the main point?
@@2468h-s9e If the title and thumbnail are about the amount of water in Hoenn, then I'm going to assume the water based portion of the video (including the HM and exploration discussion) is the main point of the video.
@@2468h-s9e literally the first thing in the video lmao are you ok
certain pokemon being locked to late game just added to their mythos when we were kids, and it worked in tandem with trading. sending your friends cool level 1 pokemon to play through the game with was part of the experience for me.
Emerald is the best Pokémon game to date and I will hear nothing to the contrary, yes it's mostly nostalgic, but god damn that Gen III art style and sprites are a work of art even today.
Before even watching the video, I'm gonna go ahead and agree with the thesis statement that HMs are good.
I believe that inconvenience adds texture. I happen to love the swamp and snow routes in Sinnoh, even though most people hate those mechanics, because in their own small way, they give me the unique experience of adversity, of the world itself feeling like it doesn't want me trudging on, unlike newer games that feel like a theme park designed to jerk off the player at all times. HMs do the same for me. Sometimes, you just can't explore a certain area, and you need to turn back to a PC and prepare better, and the whole time anticipation is building. It creates a sort of relationship or story arc between you and the environment, even if a minor one. In the best case scenario, they also forge a stronger bond between you and your Pokémon, calling on one of your own buddies to clear a path rather than some anonymous rental creature.
Now, could they be done better so that they don't require you to permanently clog your team members' movesets with trash moves? Absolutely. But I wish they weren't completely eradicated as they were.
Couldn't agree more.
I also note that the best game that technically lacks HMs is the Paldea region, but that is specifically because you are supposed to go to various towns in Paldea as a college student on some sort of master thesis or something. The freely explorable world makes sense with the initial conceit of Pokémon Scarlet and Violet. I also say that HMs are technically absent because while you don’t need to them to traverse the world, they make movement through the world more convenient (at least if you are not going for the true ending), and the things that your mount is eating to gain movement options are, for some reason, abbreviable to HM (Herba Mystica).
I feel so called out by that move set in the thumbnail. Replace Fly with Rock Smash and that was my Swampert by the end of my first playthrough
I mean it isn't wrong to do it. A gen 4 speedrun actually ends with an Empoleon like that, too
@@LakituAl I was choosey my swampert knew ice beam hydro pump earthquake protect
I always loved how the HM made me feel that I was advancing with my Pokémon, discovering together, getting to new places...
I always felt alone in my love of HMs...
All right “Booty Bopper” or should I say your really name:
Team Aqua Grunt
This is now my favorite video on TH-cam. The compelling nostalgia and more of RSE that has always had a hold on me has been articulated so well! Thank you very much.
My favourite feature were the seasons in gen v, seeing a part of the world you couldn't access until there was water or snow really made the world feel alive and big
A detail of teams Aqua and Magma that I quite enjoy is that while fighting them throughout the game, it is easy to become complacent of their "weak" pokémon. Zubats, Poochyenas, Numels, and Carvanhas pose very little threat to any half-decent team. Archie and Maxie use the evolved forms of most of these same pokémon, so one would think that they too would be push overs, albeit a little higher leveled than their grunts. However, these two are some of the more formidable bosses that the player fights throughout the game save for the elite four and champion. Mightyena can ruin the destructive power of physical attackers with intimidate while Crobat can use confuse ray to turn the tides against a statistically stronger opponent, forcing the player to think on their toes and adapt their strategies. Both Sharpedo and Camerupt possess destructive power at the cost of falling prey to common weaknesses, ensuring that a properly prepared player can take them down with good preparation and team building. It reminds you that those hordes of grunts you took down were not trainers using weak pokémon, but instead pokémon blocked from their full potential by weak trainers.
32:21 Also hi Koishi
Nice way to see it.
Also, I told Bopper that Koishi would get comments and it didn't even take 2 hours, so thanks xD
Gen 3 represents a time when Pokemon was still an rpg, not its own category of game we have now - "creature collectors" or whatever Palworld is billing itself as. That nostalgia we have for old pokemon games seems to hang around rpgs much longer and more intensely than other games from childhood, probably because of how many hours an rpg demands of the player. It is precisely because of the more obtuse elements, like HMs gating progress and absurdly silly braille puzzles that we spent so much time with these games to begin with.
Gen 3 also came out at the perfect time to still be mysterious to a child mind. We didn't have Mew under the truck anymore, but Internet rumors about how to get the Mythical Jirachi and Deoxys were absolutely still a thing, and were made even more plausible by mechanics that went unexplained unless you had the $25 to shell out for an Emerald guide that told you the guy in the Space Center who told you how many successful rockets they'd launched was counting the number of weeks since you started your save, nothing more, nothing less. Gen 3 isn't my favorite, but I respect and understand your nostalgia for it, it weighs similarly on my mind how much it means to me compared to most other entries in the franchise.
Gen 3 also had even more insane things than truck mew. The entire Regi puzzle ckmes to mind. But then there are little things like Bagon in Meteor Falls.
THAT'S what the rocket number means? I never believed the Deoxys rumor but I always just assumed the number was totally arbitrary
Exactly, you can see this in almost all of the go to critiques of the first 3 games. Physical/special split, special/special split, bag limit, dark caves needing optional flash, weird competitive type balances, etc.
Not saying they're perfect or anything. More saying that pokemon could've kept evolving that design philosophy and be credited as good game design in a different timeline
As a millennial I see Gen 3, retrospectively, as the games that solidified the Pokémon formula; the point at which the basic mechanics had been locked down and presentational competence had been achieved
It's the point where Pokémon games ceased to feel scrappy and low-budget and started to feel like blockbusters (I know Gen 1 and 2 sold a crazy amount, but they feel really rickety. Gen 3 feels "solid".)
Ironically the newer Pokémon games have reverted to feeling slapped-together, low budget and messy. Game Freak are in the odd position of being an AAA game company that lacks the staff, development budget etc. usually associated with that kinda clout
1 minute in and there's already a spicy hot take you won't see anywhere else.
I love these videos.
Honestly; the only problem with HM's was that they took one of your very limited moveslots.
Needing them to unlock new areas; the way they shaped progression, how they influenced level design; that was great.
You can see how much level design sucks in Scarlet/violet; you can go everywhere, so nowhere is special.
I wish they had found a better solution than simply removing them.
I mean I would argue they're fundamentally back in SV, just focused on ways to move around
@@Shinntoku it fundamentally doesn't work in scarlet/violet since its an open world 3D thing and you can just jump over most obstacles without much effort. There are only a handfull of places you can't immeadiatly reach; and only 1 or 2 that hide something interesting.
@@kakalukio there are tons of places you can't normally reach until your raidon has some HMs, your starting jump is tiny and can only get places by using exploits like backward jumping
@@Shinntoku Few of those places have any actual value though.
Sure; there's some random plateau you can't reach. But does that really matter if all it has is a TM you can find in 3 other places?
It's not like the older games where HM's blocked significant parts of the game.
I would suggest the removal of HMs as a problem is multi-faceted. Firstly, having mons to call to use them cheapens the experience as hm mons have a tendency to endear the player to them with their added utility. Second and thirdly, it both weakens discovery and limits game design, as most late game maps become tedious clean up quests, and otherwise unique and more gripping discoveries, such as finding legendries and rare items must be put in exclusively early game locations to maintain any value with them.
The best implementation was with gen 5, where they really were optional and generally granted a rare item or access to new mons. To improve the mechanic, it would be best to either diversify Hms so they give more type options than primarily just water and normal and to give them either increased power or better effects or to instead implement a system designed to incentivize diverse team building by having special overworld actions available depending on pokemon type combinations present, though trying to make specific functions and animations for and account for these 18 different types would be very difficult and impractical.
I like HMs too. The thing is, I don't mind SM's Ride Pokémon system as a replacement. For me, HMs are good because they allow for interesting, organic traversal gates. Gen 5 has several places where your way is arbitrarily blocked by people just standing there for no real reason, and then they vanish for no real reason when the story lets you progress. Seriously, just put a stream in the way! This is at its absolute worst in SwSh, where Team Yell blocks you until you get the badge, and then they usually just disappear; and literally the only new traversal option you unlock in the whole game is the surfing bike.
HMs would be really great if Pokémon had developed in a different direction - if exploration was part of the challenge, instead of entirely for discovery, then bringing an HM Pokémon would be a choice with merit, leading you to ask yourself "is it worth bringing a suck move to take a shortcut, or should I take the long way, risking running out of HP and PP before I get where I need to go?". This would obviously have to go alongside other design choices, like limited inventory space and an interconnected, almost Metroidvania-like world, but I think, in such a game, the people complaining about HMs would be told that they just don't get it.
Was there another point in there? I forget. I guess I just like talking about what could have been, lol.
When i was playing gen 1 and gen 2 games i always felt like there is NOT ENOUGH water to enjoy surf. Sure you needed to surf a bit to reach one of the gyms but thats it. I was really happy when in gen 3 we had plenty of water to explore before we hit the land. It felt like new adventure, like i've unlocked new way of transport to reach many places. I got lost back then and that felt amazing because i found my way eventually and it made me memorize the map more. It felt like a challange to visit every corner and not miss out on any items or trainers. Like a survival mode where there is no pokemon center in sight. That was really cool. And sure i could always fly back to the start but that's the thing - i would have to navigate back to where i was once again and i wanted to avoid it if possible. And diving also felt good with the different music (and in very deep waters there were no enounters so you could chill for a bit) so overall i really enjoyed swimming for the first time in pokemon games!
I am not sure if there should be more water, but certainly i wouldn't say there was too much of it. I say they hit the right amount of it.
Babe wake up new controversial yet uncontroversial Bopper Pokémon video essay dropped
As a devout follower of Gen 3 gospel
You won me over with this video
Over 5k hours played between R&S and I couldn't agree with a video more.
Subbed lad
Feels like a video essay for art history class lol.
Yet so captivating 😂
32:20 Touhoumon Jumpscare
Touhou is invading this channel
Gen 3 is my favorite generation, unironically.
Same. Is it ironic to like Gen 3? The in game music, pokemon designs/sprites, and plot/post game content are all top tier (in my opinion) I was also 11 so this is prime nostalgia.
Me too (obviously) its just the best vibes in hoenn always
@@mariomandog Not really. Alot of people grew up with it due to how time passed.
Another fellow HM enjoyer. Feels so great to find someone who articulates their enjoyment of these options
The design problems you mention are especially prevalent in RPGs. In other genres, the player will usually have access to all of the mechanics, barring things like power-ups, this means the devs can know exactly what the character can and can't do in any situation, and build content that challenges the player to use the tools they have in interesting ways. If mario, kirby, or Link need to set something on player, the player usually realizes it quickly and switches items or power-ups accordingly.
i adore the looping nature of hoenn's map, ive been doing a replay lately and its been a delight
If I could change the HMs but keep the purpose:
Make the HM ability useable outside of battle for smashing rocks and pushing boulders once you beat the respective gym for the unlocked HM, but don't make the move mandatory to have on your moveset. You get the feeling of adventure whilst not keeping the player hostage by having the move on a pokemon.
Especially annoying in platinum where you need all the HM moves to climb mt coronet and take with you into the distortion world, it either means taking 5 team members and 1 HM pokemon or 6 team members and one with the HM moves which is not ideal no matter what.
If Hoenn is the sweet summer times of your Childhood, then Sinnoh is the new autumns of growth and Unova is the new winters of change.
which would johto be?
Now is the winter of my discontent
I love your style of analysis! You combine both the nitty-gritty of Pokemon's details with the appeal of the games as single-player experiences better than anyone else I've seen. Usually you get just one or the other. Already anticipating what you'll say about Gen V, confident you'll add something real to the conversation
Thank you! I've been singing the praises of HMs for decades. A game that doesn't pose any obstacle for the player is fundamentally uninteresting; any game offers adversity (which doesn't mean it has to be hard) to the player, aka "what a game asks of the player"; it's just that, especially in the modern day, so many players are excessively focused on convenience and miss the forest for the trees, for this sort of thing.
The problem with hms is repetition.
Losing a slot to rock smash is flavorfull and can incite harder decisions. But every generation loosing the same slot ia annoying. They could just have different ones every time! But that is work
Damn. I never thought there could be something that captures the feeling of nostalgia without being a personal source of nostalgia, but this video does it to a T.
Also, for 31:00 I recommend buying Super Repels instead of Max Repels, it's more efficient for your in-game funds. I learned from a Let's Play years ago that the Max Repels cost about 200 more but only give you 50 extra steps
Could be worse. In Gen 1 a bug causes *Ultra Balls* to have a worse catchrate than *Great Balls*.
Really looking forward to further discussion of abilities if you do cover Gen 4 eventually. Pokémon has genuinely incredible battle systems that, at their best, make different species of Mon play radically differently. I’m interested in hearing what you have to say about that evolution in “mon feel” over time.
Oh sweet, I'm a kingdra
Ooh I loved the parallels to Monet, totally agree. Hoenn needs MORE water !!!!!! Another banger video bopper
Gen 3 was my first proper Pokemon experience, back in 2005. The 'mons, music, and art hold up so well, but I can't play it for more than a couple of hours at a time because it's so slow. I don't know if modern Pokemon is just that much faster, or if my attention span's that much worse than it was 19 years ago, but I'm honestly finding it boring, and this is saddening.
Yet another lovely retrospective from you, regardless :)
No, the Houndour and Larvitar issue is that Johto should have Johto Pokemon. And so many of them are stuck in Kanto or in the case of Sneasel and Larvitar, behind the Kanto region.
Also, Game Freak realised that it was an issue and corrected it in future games. That's why you don't get Rattata in the Hoenn early game.
I agree. The anime clearly showed houndour and larvitar in Johto, so they should have been in Johto. Plain and simple
That was never an issue on release, because "gen 2" was a sequel. People are retroactively assigning expectations to a series where the novelty was things like color and sprite animations. Having the new pokemon be rare was "good" game design in that context, it's only going back to the games later that we've decided it was "bad" game design.
Finally someone standing up for HMs! HMs really felt like you were working with your pokemon to explore the world, and its so rewarding to have cut when you come across a cut tree or rock smash when you come across a smashable rock, etc. Part of teambuilding for me is having each of my pokemon have an HM so each can contribute to exploring the region.
If we were going to fix HMs, just make one change: Make a OVERWORLD-ONLY FIFTH MOVESLOT just for HMs. So your scizor can have cut without losing a move slot.
I think a good middle ground for hms is something that some romhacks do: just make them forgettable. You're still presented with the challenge of getting mons that can use them which pushes the player to stay flexible, but you don't get the sucky feeling that comes with basically having a dead move slot until you get access to the move deleter. Alternatively, a romhack called Pokemon Recharged Yellow makes it so you don't have to TEACH a pokemon an hm to use it, but you still need to have a pokemon that would naturally learn the move in your party. I think either of those cases would be effective in getting rid of the main sore point with HMs while getting the benefits they create within the game design
It's worth noting that in RSE, you never need Dive and Waterfall at the same time.
Also, by the time you are given Dive, you also have Fly and access to the Move Deleter.
I usually just run 1 water type on my team who knows Surf and Dive, but after the 8th gym I fly to the Move Deleter and swap out Dive for Waterfall.
I was NOT expecting a Wario Land 4 reference, but I'm glad I got one.
Great video, thought-provoking as always. I think the main reason the critique of the map holds water (eh?) is that its harder to justify tedium in a medium as interactive as video games. Paintings and films simply need to be experienced, whereas all fulfillment from games comes from play. And it can be hard to maintain the facade of the endless springtime of youth presented by the sea when you know that all that springtime anounts to is an encounter table of five or so underwhelming pokemon. Still love gen 3 though, frfr ngl.
At the point that you get surf, you can have a huge number of repels. I think it's personally amazing how water in Hoenn is used, much better than any other gen, because it doesn't just feel like a gameplay mechanic or a one off thing.
The infamous "Too much water" Statement was referencing *Water type Pokemon* in the Gen 6 Remake of Gen 3 - besides being an intentional clickbait blurb.
Gen 3 is full of mystery and intrigue in all its locations and hidden mechanics, the music is bombastic and hopeful and sort of sad sometimes, these games are the best the series has ever looked in regards to both the Pokemon designs themselves and the world they live in; the vibes are immaculate in Hoenn. It's peak. Cool vibeo. :)
11:51
Counterargument
I suggest you play other monster collector JRPGs that design their games and numbers to avoid that issue and still reward exploration and discovery.
Dragon Quest Monsters makes it so you can fuse your way up to strong stuff that is easily far more powerful and broken in their own systems than Tyranitar. Getting a Gemslime or Dragonlord is available to the player if they put forth the training and effort like Pokemon's lore puts such emphasis on as well. You are also rewarded fir it long term cuz boss battles are way harder than what you get from Pokemon games.
Yo-Kai Watch gives you a free ingame gacha where you can easily get a bunch of Rare S Ranks but the game has far slower level growth than Pokemon and high Rank monsters have even slower level growth, so they are not going to carry you. Even then, that game ALSO has way harder boss battles than Pokemon too. Yo-Kai Watch also has far more set piece and worldbuilding flavor on par with the Kecleon example. Both games give the player far more freedom and arrange the numbers so gratification and customization cause less issues.
Monster Joker 2 was crazy as a kid. Already full 3d on roughly PSX level while Pokemon was still 2d.
I way prefer 2D Pokemon nowadays though.
A Gen 3 thing you overlooked is Gardevoir via early Ralts, something Gen 6 lets you do with Kalos while also giving Gible right at the midgame, so you have two metagame staples that just mash the game to bits as soon as like gym 6 or 7 when they get fully evolved, the free Lucario, the Snorlax encounter early, Kalos just gives you stupid talent freely
you can have Lucario, Scolipede, Gardevoir, and second stage Kanto and Kalos starters by gym 2 with a touch of Battle Chateau grinding.
Gen 3 hoenn is my favorite region when you surf and dive in the last part of the game there a lot of exploration over and under water great concept.
This was a very different perspective and I enjoyed hearing about it.
The appeal for pokemon for me has always been pvp and the battling mechanics. So learning about the appeal of exploration as a single player RPG game was very eye opening and different.
I actually think if they made a seperate game for pvp pokemon and kept the mainline games exclusively single player, both camps would benefit. Competitive players wouldn't have to grind to be able to play, and the campaign wouldn't be held back by streamlining meant only to make pvp more convenient.
@@theboostedbaboon4586 I'm still waiting for Stadium 4
these are really good videos. i like the way you approach these games holistically, its a nice change of pace from how they're usually discussed. i dont always agree with you but i think you are using a compelling framework.
I have been preaching this for so long! The exact reason I miss HMs is because of them unlocking more and more of the map to explore. The shining, perfect example of why Hoenn does it best is how when you go through Petalburg Woods you might see the right section thats innaccessable due to a ledge and a cut tree. Once you beat Roxanne and pick up the optional Cut HM, you'll have to back track through Petalburg Woods, now with the ability to cut those trees (located on the north side so it will be at the start of the back track) and go through a new section with a lot of goodies like a Miracle Seed for your Treecko or Shroomish. Almost every HM is like this and will unlock new areas with new items for previous areas, giving you so many reasons to revisit areas after you pass through once, making them more memorable.
Once I started doing Key Item Randomizers it really exemplified how great the map design is, what with every run being completely different based on a variety of things like when I get Cut, Rock Smash or Strength, among other things
True
Gen 3 has the best soundtrack and i will die on this hill
The HM I get most excited to use isn't even an HM- it's Dig. It's not that great, just the same thing as a free escape rope, but it makes me FEEL like a genius for thinking to use it. I think a lot of the actual HMs could benefit from having similarly niche but satisfying uses of their own.
Teleport works the same iirc.
@@eightcoins4401 no, Dig takes you back to the entrance of any cave or dungeon-like structure. It only works in those locations. Teleport does NOT work in those locations, instead only in the overworld, and returns you to the last Pokemon Center you visited.
mfw when a painting I like is randomly mentioned in a Pokemon video
You were very clearly trying to hit a non existent word requirement toward the end
Yes, very clearly. Your feedback will be considered closely in the next project
pissed off that people hated hoenn for having "too much water" and then they made a whole hawaii-themed region with no water routes likely because of this
I think a good compromise for HMs would be needing a Pokémon whole is CAPABLE of learning it in order to perform the move in the field, rather than having to actually dedicate a move slot.
I see it as a win-win; it allows players to keep all their slots to actually useful moves and Pokémon, whilst still allowing for HM puzzles and progression
I've listened to the first two videos so many times. Very excited for this one! Thank You Friend 💙💙
I really enjoyed the video, but as someone who didn’t play emerald until I was nearly an adult, I don’t feel the same nostalgia towards the game a lot of people do. I am a big fan of HMS, as well as emerald, but I do genuinely think they could have been done better. Making concessions on your team to travel the region is, to me, not a good way to enjoy the game, and neither is making your game over 40% encounter tiles with nothing of particular rarity or strength most of the time. I can appreciate the game being a snapshot of a different time, but I do think there were fine tuning adjustments that could have been made that don’t subtract from the game in any way but make the player experience more enjoyable.
If you want a Pokemon earlier than usual, I think you're supposed to try and see if you can trade for one! If you want a Beldum, maybe a friend already has one, and can breed one for you, perhaps in exchange for a rare Ralts you found. This is especially easy with the modern games, since one trip to the GTS gives you a unique sidequest to complete in exchange for your Pokemon (Pokemon Home has the GTS free).
Finally, some love for Castform! One of my favourite Hoenn Pokémon. I've always loved Hoenn's sea routes because they give me a feeling of adventure, almost like I'm a pirate on the high seas. They're also important to the game's lore because of the land vs sea theme.
Saphire was my first time playing pokemon as a little kid. I can still remember my Sceptiles MOveset: Leaf Blade, Cut, Flash & False Swipe. Turns out with a moveset that bad no amount of grinding will make the Elite 4 easy so I said goodbye to my pokemon and started the entire game again and started with a Blaziken instead and learnt from my mistakes giving it a proper moveset of different powerful attacking moves. If HMs didn't exist I wouldn't have this memory so I think they did more good then harm to the game.
@@dragonslayerbond my sceptile was Leaf Blade Agility detect Secret Power. The One I had Emerald moves were Dragon breath Giga drain Cut Crunch…,My Machoke knew both strength and Rock Smash,rock slide,bulk up
Linoone knew Cut Thief Headbutt Dig
Swampert ice beam Surf Rock smash Earthquake
…had a Wailord with Dive Rest Mist Surf
With fly I had a Tropius Raquaza and salamence that was on my team tho
Salamence Fly Fire Blast Hyperbeam Dragon Claw
if I can recall I had quite a few Pokémon I didn’t use on my team regularly that randomly had the move surf or strength like I pretty sure there as High as they were level wise due to proximity an completing Pokédex lol off top of my head I had a Tentacruel Golduck Walrein all which knew surf kinda came about as a sort of inconvenience but I’m glad I caught em through otherwise I wouldnt hav3 ever used them …Pinsir Vigoroth Heracross had strength
in the case of switching around pokemon in a party, too many people got accustomed to emulator speed up so they end up treating the game as what basically is just a team building simulator. its also why too many people just hack in rare candies and ignore at least 60% of the game just to make a boss rush.
Its because in no jrpg has grinding ever been as painfully boring as in Pokemon. This has been an issue since Gen 1 that isnt fixed to this day.
Most fun gotta be Shin Megami Tensei Strange Journey Redux. Throwing on Auto Battle and then Fast Forward. Doesnt make the game any easier since its SMT. People often confuse the tedium of braindead grinding with challenge.
im not saying its a challenge or whatever, im saying people ignore what the game expects the player to interact with, there's a reason why the meme "pokemon fans don't know how to read" exists. also about grinding, all early rpgs were notorious for being VERY slow, pokemon was even kinda fast in comparison, only after a certain point rpgs tried to make battles go faster (id say around 2008)
I'm pretty sure that the vast majority of people who play with speedups or rare candy hacks have already played the game as intended, and they are _replaying_ it in a different and challenging way. They are skipping the parts they already know (story, route layouts and leveling) to get to the parts that are relevant to the challenge.
@@eightcoins4401 You have never been required to grind in any pokemon game. This is a completely made up issue not present in the actual experience.
Don't expect me to ignore that short Touhoumon footage
3min later Touhou comments are invading this channel even more
The way I would implement HMs would be to either
1. You unlock abilities but you need specific Pokemon in your party to perform these abilities (water type for surf/waterfall/dive/whirlpool, flying for fly/defog/cut?, and fighting or normal for strength/rock smash/rock climb)
2. Have a system like ride Pokemon but if you teach a Pokemon an HM then that Pokemon is displayed when a HM is used (like how in ORAS you can fly with either the Eon Flute or with one of your party members that knows fly)
The key is to allow players to freely travel across the region with as little as a single Pokemon but also give them the option to use their own Pokemon to clear obstacles or for travel
I think it's funny that most first-take opinions on game mechanics are some combination of {objective statement about the mechanic's design} and "and that's a good/bad thing".
The HM argument is always fundamentally "HMs limit your team composition and thats a good/bad thing", but the challenge of the individual game and the map design must be factors in the argument. I love this video.
I love emerald version it's a game I replay very often. I often nuzlock, or just do a vanilla playthrough, there are a few issues upon replay.
The biggest one is that it's a lot of water type pokémon that are not spread out properly throughout the water routes.
If you have water pokémon on your team they do not have a good move until after gym 5 when you get surf. Most likely your water pokémon you have on your team will have all three HMs or have an HM friend getting rid of your sixth party slot.
Like I said I love this generation, the only few things that I would change is
adding the physical special split so dark type pokémon can actually take advantage of their typing,
a lot more water pokémon to each route for variation
Increasing the options per route of older pokémon for diversity
Giving pokémon a more diverse power scaling moves. For example lotad definitely takes a short end of the stick for both typings until much later in the game. In my playthrough I usually just breed one in another game and transfer it over with better moves. Benefiting from the extra XP gain
AMEN to the HM! Solutions with drawbacks are interesting! "jank" and "drawbacks" are interesting! Devs solving the player's problems for them is boring. Plus, having an HM connects me to my pokemon in ways that using items just... doesn't. When I got the flute to call a Latios to fly me around in ORAS I was sad, because I had no more reason to use a flying type on my team over any other type, plus I just didn't care about the Lati as much as I cared about my own Swellow, who now I was questioning their purpose on my team over a stat-wise better beat stick.
Last 10 minutes was fuckin beautiful man
0:27 - Liked and Subbed; nothing truer has been spoken.
11:27 - I wish I could like and sub more than once.
14:08 - "Bad" Pokémon are more important than any other arbitrary category of Pokémon.
[Anywhere in the Tate and Liza section] - Double Battles are why Colosseum is the best Pokémon.
27:30 - This had better segue into "Why Pokémon Colosseum is the Greatest Pokémon Game" soon 🤔
31:00 - "Use another?" would have probably saved Gen 3 in the eyes of most casual players 🙃
32:51 - As a kid I was so ready for the allegory for the Japanese land reclamation projects even if I didn't have the full context then. I really wish games after Ruby and Sapphire were as 🚨 political 🚨
34:21 - Sun and Moon would have been so much better if the travel between islands was a greater focus like in Pokémon 2000 🤷🏻♀
35:28 - 🔥🔥🔥 exactly what children's media should do
I would’ve gone into Coliseum, but I’ve already done a video on it!
@@ProfessorBopper I know, and I love it, but I still enjoy a good Colosseum love letter 😅
Another banger professor
I love ALL Professor Bopper videos!!!! ❤
agreed with pretty much everything, subscribed
30s in and you’re already based. HM’s are one of pokemons links back to rpg’s, a thing pokemon apparently is
i think, at least in gen 3, EVs and natures are actually not intended to deepen competitive gameplay. my biggest reason is the third, related new stat effect, IVs being “individual values”. it feels like it was a way to make each individual pokemon more unique from others of its species. some beedrils are stronger than others, and some are faster than others, both due to the way they hatched, and the way they’ve been trained
This dude could talk about what I'm going to have for lunch for an hour and I'd put it on. Great listening content, just like Summoning Salt
Emerald is one of the GOAT pokemon games for sure.
Peak Pokémon is Hoenn and Peak Hoenn is Flygon.
Ruby was my first Pokemon game and I'm grateful for that honestly, even though Diamond and Pearl were out at the time.
It's nice to see gen 3 and especially hoenn get love, it's always been my favorite generation and for a long time I thought I was the only one
Honestly, if the games were designed around having HM moves and then make them be like tools or something so they dont limit your moveset would be the best middle ground. I get thats kinda what they did with the ride Pokemon in gen 7 and 9 but the overall map design didnt really utilize it anywhere near as good as gen 3 and 4 did
Gen 3, with the introduction of abilities that effect battles and the overworld alike, the introduction of contests that rely on stats built up by taking care of berries on the overworld, and the little details like reflections in puddles and footsteps in sands, among many other elements, still represents my favorite marriage of theme and ludonarrative in the entire series.
They even answered the water encounter rate problem by giving you the solution in the soot produced by Mt. Chimney being exchangable for the black flute. (Don't buy repels!)
Felt a bit weird about the HM discussion and I just realised that it assumes the player already knows how much they're going to need HM moves in the immediate future. Yeah, sure you could box your dive/waterfall pokemon upon reaching Victory Road if you've read the strategy guide, but I certainly wouldn't.
Just a comment to make sure the Wario Land 4 music in this video doesn't go unappreciated 💚
Generation 3 was always my favorite.
Same. There were interesting design decisions that made the game fun to play. For example, the first half of Hoenn limits counters to the Electric and Fire Type gyms without trading in Pokémon or TMs from another Gen 3 game.
@@nc5958 the game felt bigger, and I liked how it zig zagged back into itself. Then all the divint spots, it always felt "I havent seen this before", then emerald adding a good deal of stuff I remember being kike 10 and thinking how amazing it was. I love Gen 1, but gen 3 and the art design will always be my favorite.
hms are pretty cool
I still have my original emerald cart. 150-200 hours (can't remember exactly). I wonder when the last time I played was
This Game is about the fight between Land (Groudon) and Water (Kyogre) so of course it containa 50% water on the map.
I very much disagree with the clickbait hot takes but the rest of this video was amazing, great job!
this video went hard
This is one of the best Pokemon video essays ive ever watched, gen 3 keeps winning