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Aircraft manufactures can make their new jets spacious and comfortable, but it's all made pointless when carriers who buy the planes will outfit the interior to maximize profit over passenger comfort.
Except that airlines don't do that; they do two other things. The first is to dramatically increase passenger comfort which also increases profits and is in fact generating the majority of profit on flights. This is known as "business class." The second is to make as many passenger seats as possible available in their far less profitable area of the aircraft so as to make cheap tickets available to as many as possible. This is known as "economy class." The airlines would just _love_ it if passenger priority really was comfort; more people would buy business class tickets, business class sections would get bigger and the airlines would make more money. But while people might complain about being crammed into small seats, what they actually choose to buy reveals that most travelers' preference is for that if it saves them money. There's an old joke about revealed preference: Two economists are walking past a Porsche dealership. Looking in the window, one says to the other, "I want that car." The other says, "No you don't."
@@Curt_Sampson Incorrect. As someone who has done over 30 return flights LON to SYD we are not given the choice of 'just enough seat width + just enough leg room' It is becoming either very cramped in both pitch and seat width, or the next layer up, premium economy is 2.5x the price at best, up to 3x the economy price much of the time. Buisness class is 5x plus unless you get a very restrictive deal on Etiad for eg.
@@stephanguitar9778 Your post doesn't make sense: you say you were not given a choice, and then immediately say that you had a choice between the seat you took, premium economy and business class. In other words, you did have a choice. Your complaint about the much higher price is complicated by the fact that you were also taking advantage of airlines selling some seats at closer to marginal cost for an empty seat on an otherwise full flight; in other words, part of your share of the average cost per passenger in your class was subsidised for you by other passengers pay more than the average cost. An explanation of what's going on there is far more than can fit into a comment here, but if you search for "marginal cost of airline seats" you can find details about this.
@@Curt_Sampson I don't have a choice of a better seat purely because I cant afford it. I can however afford 20 or even 30% more, not 250% more. ie No choice for me. On par with having a choice between something worse than McDonalds for dinner and Lobster in a Michelin 3* restaurant wheras in the normal world there will be something inbetween. As for being subsidised, Bull-S**t, I fly around Europe on one class airlines which often cost more per mile than full service airlines doing long-haul, ie with zero business/first class passenger. Also to note, I dont take the cheapest available seat because I have to pay too much for changes etc so always pay quite a bit above the cheapest.
@@stephanguitar9778 _"As for being subsidised, Bull-S**t..."_ If you don't understand marginal costs and how more expensive seats are effectively subsidising cheaper seats on airline flights, you have no grasp at all on airline economics. That basically invalidates any complaints you have about pricing; your complaints stem from "I wish the world were like X" rather than any engagement with how the airlines really work. And my original point stands: airlines make the most profit on the seats that provide the _most_ passenger comfort, not the least. That's a basic fact, and from that is derived that those passengers are subsidising ones in economy seats that are being sold between the marginal cost of the flight for an economy class passenger and the average cost (including capital costs) per economy class passenger.
I don’t think Airbus was a loser honestly - they’ve been racking up some incredible deals post-covid while Boeing had remained stagnant. Their two largest “issues” right now (from a sales perspective) is that their A320 family backlog is at like ~6 years right now! As a result, their aircraft are also demanding a premium price (especially the more capable ones like the XLR.) I’m assuming Boeing practically gave away the MAX-10s to delta honestly - this deal HAD to happen for PR reasons, and didn’t really make a whole lot of sense for Delta honestly. As I mentioned above, a likely reason for it is simply unreasonably long delivery slots vs. Boeing - then again, the A321 NEO would have also commanded quite the price premium over the 737-10. Even with the 100 737s, Airbus still handily owns the market. I will say that they probably would have liked to secure some more widebody orders, but oh well. I would call the 777X a loser btw, it’s incurring unbelievable delays for an aircraft which was supposed to be an “easy” upgrade - at this point it has lost a ton of momentum. It’s becoming clear that it will likely be far more successful as a freighter, though Airbus threw a wrench into that with the announcement of the A350F a while ago - it’s odd that customers have a competing option moving forward, as Boeing has just automatically owned the marked historically. For now, I think Airbus is tapped out. If they can’t build planes faster, they’re likely not going to be able to sell them (A320 lines.) It’s a good problem to have, but certainly makes shows like this frustrating for them from a PR-perspective.
Very accurate and true comment. This guy Coby is so obviously pro Boeing that I've almost abandoned the channel. Boeing is a great company but let be honest now they are behind Airbus on the world market.
also the week before the show airbus announced 100+ aircraft to various chinese airlines. If they really about some winner/loser competition they would have waited a week to announce it
As travelers, we need Airbus, Boeing and all of the other manufacturers to do well. Should any of them fail, it will reduce competition, which ultimately hurts innovation.
I think it’s safe to say that this has been Boeing’s Airshow. They have scored such huge deals during the 2022 Farnborough Airshow. To be honest, I was expecting Airbus so also rack up some sizable orders as well, but at least they still got good deals. I’m also pretty happy for Embraer as their E-Jet E2 program is finally getting some good orders. Overall, it’s nice to see healthy competition in the Aviation Industry.
@@kirtwilliams549 Delta is a well known opportunistic buyer that shops cheap, and there's no reason for them not to buy Boeing. Qatar has burnt bridge and won't order Airbus for a considerable time (nor Airbus wants to have any affairs with them). CargoLux is a bit of a surprise, but others are either top-ups or long rumoured.
@Baxter The Goldendoodle - try adding in the 311 aircraft order from China announced a week ago on to the orders at Farnborough and then see who won most.
Thanks for the wrap up although I found it somewhat skewed in favour of Boeing, Airbus continues to dominate, Boeing is enjoying some localised hype with beleaguered products being reintroduced while Airbus’ consistent excellence is less exciting. I totally agree on the Chinese program, it would be fair to say China is less showy than the west but I did expect to see something on the long awaited nation mover. Absolutely delighted for Embraer, as good as A220 is E2 deserved much more attention than it got so it’s good to see it finally being recognised for how remarkable it is.
I'm really disappointed that Airbus is configuring the A350 for 10 abreast in economy. One of the biggest reasons why the flying public dislikes the 787 is that airlines are configuring their airplanes for 9 abreast (economy) when it was initially designed for 8 abreast. I've flown on JAL's 787 with 8 abreast in economy, and it was one of the best flying experiences I had in economy although I'm not sure If JAL jumped on the bandwagon and went for 9 abreast economy. I've flown in AA's 777 with 10 abreast economy and it was bad! With the A350 and its narrower cabin (compared to the 777), one can imagine how miserable a flight (with 10 abreast) will be.
It seems that Airbus is developing a CabinFlex product for 10 abreast seating for the A350 since the MTOW has been increased that is based on the CabinFlex as seen on the A320neo and A321neo's and the Airspace will still have 9 abreast seating as seen on the A321neo, A321lr and A321xlr. By offering the A350 in 2 cabin styles will give airlines are better choose for cabin styles for their operations and increase A350 orders.
It seems they have been testing that new configuration with Lufthansa: I flew a Boston - Frankfurt flight on A350 for Xmas last year that was the most cramped I have ever felt; pretty sure it was a 3-4-3 configuration. Horrible. Based on that experience, I now check what plane and configuration I would get when booking flights to Europe, something I’ve never done before. I don’t mind paying a few extra bucks to avoid that nightmare. And I’m not even big or tall. I can’t imagine what it would be for someone on the bigger size.
@@yenlard6683 The last delay I heard about was the FAA told them last year that due to faults encountered in testing they weren't going to get certification until late 2023. The reason has not been publicized that I know of, and I have not heard of why Boeing is now slipping first delivery from 2024 to 2025. My suspicion is that their war on engineering has resulted in them being unable to attract the people they need to get the job done in a reasonable time. This isn't the Boeing that did the first 777 by the numbers. For comparison, the A350 first flew in 2013 and was first delivered in 2015, and has never been grounded, or stop-shipped. They do have a paint issue, but that isn't in the same order of magnitude as being grounded and having deliveries stopped on two families.
I think Airbus can not be seen as a „loser“ simply for the reason that Airbus is so much more and Airbus heicopters and Airbus Defence had some huge wins during the air show. Also, I do strongly believe, That boeing although it is recovering will Fall behind Airbus in the next years, as they have to First Balance out all the loss and Bad reputation from the 737max series and therefore will not be abel to participate in crucial Research to more enviromentally friendly flying giving Airbus a head Start.
The elephant in the room is that a. MAX is not as competitive as 320NEO as a whole, while simply can't undercut A220. b. 787 has an edge over 330NEO, but demand for widebody is weak at the moment. Not to mention 787's production issues has made 330NEO more attractive in terms of delivery than usual. c. Freighter is booming, but Airbus is start eating Boeing's lunch. Airbus doesn't have to overtake Boeing to hurt the latter's profitability - they just has to be there, and Boeing can no longer set the price as they wish. Don't get me wrong, 321 and 350 are solid freighters, but it takes time and effort to establish their footholds. But nevertheless Boeing earned a few big orders, especially for MAX10 and 777XF are significant. This gives them some room to breath.
How heavily discounted were the 737 Max and 787 for Boeing to pick up sales after the horrendous flaws they encountered? I mean, it has to be a big gamble for the airlines with public confidence in Boeing having hit rock bottom!
I have nothing to correct you on!! Coby your segments flow nicely...great visuals and I discover helpful facts. Your personality of "going positive" is refreshing considering the choices. I look forward to your 797 update! Thank you for your many hours putting these together for us!
I banned 777 10 abreast years ago. If A350 goes this way, they too will be banned. An A320 or 737 seat is more comfortable. If the cost of premium economy wasnt 2.5 to 3x economy I would do that but on the London to Australia routes, that's the price of upgrade. As the A350 will be used as long haul, this would be a disgrace and an insult to passengers. Crossed arms and shoulders with snoring, dribbling passengers in the next seat is disgusting.
@@jcasb9843 The manufacturers are pandering to the airlines. In no way shape or form is this even safe, either re things like DVT, extreme close proximity to other peoples breathing, nor if there is an accident and panic to get out.
I took a Cathay Pacific flight 3 years ago in Economy class with the 9 abreast seating configuration. The shoulder room is insufficient with just normal sized human beings beside you. Disappointing seating but a nice modern jet.
I'm not sure I'd call the A350 XWB a loser in this situation. The future passengers of the jet? Maybe. I certainly don't welcome the news. But from a business perspective, the airlines will almost surely see this as a win and could boost sales.
777X seemed like a mix bag. We don't know how big that Cargolux order is, but they're using it to replace their 747-400s. They only have 15 of those so assuming they do a one for one replacement, that would mean 17 total orders (2 went to ANA as well). That's not bad but the plane hasn't had a real blockbuster deal yet, and considering the market for air cargo is red hot right now this weekend seemed like a great opportunity for one
@@cobyexplanes Cargolux is not a bad win though. While Qatar, ANA, Lufthansa and Ethiopian are big orders, most of them either have 777F, 777X pax, or both, so naturally they'd pick 777XF. On the other hand, Silk Way, CMA CGA turned their backs against 777XF, while AF and Etihad seem to pass 777X altogether. Cargolux is a good endorsement as they didn't have 777F and obviously 350s, but end up picked 777XF. Boeing would be happy to stop A350s from carrying Cargolux callsigns. We'd see how well A&B win hearts and minds of other new customers. But pax I'm more doubtful. A weak widebody market together with a prospect of 10-abreast 35K aren't good news for 779.
@@steinwaldmadchen I wouldn't be that doubtful about pax 779. Back in the 90's the 777 only had a couple hundred orders and look what it turned into. Just give it time and be patient, the program will turn out a lot differently than people think.
@@JackJohnson3119 Then you should. 777 is a very capable aircraft, just that it's not the most lightweight and optimised one. When there's a "just right" aircraft 777 simply can't compete. 772 sales dried up when 333 became more capable. 35K at 10 abreast flies further and slightly faster than 779, while burning 10% less per trip and being 35t lighter. What advantages does 779 have other than slightly more capacity? Even at 9 abreast it basically slashs 778. Even before the 10-abreast thing, some of the earliest 77W operators has already opted for 350 instead. How many replacement market can 777X realistically take? Freighter is where 777X still has an edge, but it lost the monopoly 777F enjoyed anyway. CMA CGA, Air France and Etihad didn't choose 777XF as their 777F replacement.
Love all your videos keep up the great work. Every video you make is a must watch for true aviators. You've been a very credible source of aviation news
This channel is a recent find for me, and I've felt compelled to watch a sizable number of your videos (I also subbed). You make very good content, a sublime mix of beautiful visuals with very interesting information. Finally, I think these airshow rundowns are also a worthy addition to your content and recommend you cover them in the future.
Great all in one video going over everything. So much better than DJ’s Aviation who just made a bunch of boring short videos over the course of the show
The Max-10 situation is quite precarious though since Boeing has recently threatened to Axe it. This has to do that if it isn't certified before the end of this year, A big Cockpit modification will have to be implemented. This would mean that the Max-10 loses a lot of commonality with other 737's and would mean costly retraining for Airlines.
More than the cockpit, they would have to replace the systems. The 737 is still a 1950s design under the skin. It doesn't have the technology to provide the information needed to inform an EICAS system.
I wouldn't say 10-abreast 350 is a bad news for either Airbus or the airlines, though. Currently 359 has but slightly fewer seats than similar sized 78J, hence having poorer seat cost. 35K on the other hand both burns and carries significantly less than 779, so neither can easily undercut each other. With 10-abreast however 359 can match or exceed 78J in terms of seat count, while closing the capacity gap with 779. In both cases 350 would not only have advantage in range, but also in cost. That would be welcomed by some potential 350 users and Airbus in sales campaign. Do note that 350 uses 1.5" armrests instead of standard 2" from day 1. Airbus can therefore widen the cabin by just ~4" to claim 10-abreast at 17", despite current A350 is 10" narrower than 77W in terms of cabin. It still means the seats would be more cramped than the 77W though.
I am a skinny guy and the worst aspect of Cathay Pacific’s A350 was the 9 abreast seating in Economy. My two normal size travellers were stealing my armrest space. Sometimes our shoulders could touch. Yikes, and this was pre-covid.
Airbus needs widebody orders, but in terms of narrowbodies, they need to actually build more planes before they can expect to get more orders, that wait line is ridiculously long
Considering that order will break the Air Canada Monopoly on premium domestic flights, that's not a Loss, once people see what Porter can do with the E2, it'll start selling like hot cakes (especially the E170 and E175-E2, the CRJs are coming up on retirement.)
@@Dexter037S4 Porter is not a "blue chip" carrier yet. Think about Delta for 330NEO, or Swiss for CSeries. They are established carriers that have traced recrods of profitability, and probably would remain operation for years. Yet they put their faith on an unproven program, order the aircraft with a considerable numbers, operate for a considerable period of time, and keep a healthy after market. They may also participate in used market, which is welcomed by lessors, smaller carriers and freighter conversion vendors. These give confidence and practical benefits to other potential buyers. airBaltic or even AirAsiaX, despite their massive orders, didn't carry as much as weight as the blue chips. In fact, E2 and 338 (Hawaiian) already lose a few sales battles, partly because the potential customers don't want to owe an orphad. A220 has more than enough big names on board together with a large enough order books, so it will sell no matter what happens on Embraer side. E2 on the other hand still need to catch up. The biggest issue for E175-E2 is that it is out of scope clause in North America, meaning the largest customers for E170 can't order it. Meanwhile in Europe or elsewhere, they don't usually take E175-E2 because of its inferior fuel economy (either E190/E195-E2 or A220). Unfortunately this aircraft is overweight.
Small tiny problem: that delta order is for the MAX 10, the same plane that can’t pass certification most likely and that the CEO threatened to cancel.
@@herceg6772 Yes, List price is only for enthusiast. If Airbus doesn't have full bookings this case should be going to FTA commission. As dumping tactics
I appreciate that you gave the easy to understand example of how it should be pronounced (showing how it would be written if phonetically pronounced in most accents in English) rather than just being like "It hurts my soul when Americans butcher Farnborough" so many others do.
@@ericburton5163 Eric there is an apocryphal tale about an American at a London station asking where he can catch the train to Loogy baroogy (Loughborough) 😊
Englishman here: Weird fact, we pronounce Farnborough the same as Edinburgh (in fact Farnbrugh!). So you are pronouncing it right according to spelling. How very silly on our part.
Excellent content, beautifully produced and very informative. But, being an old pedant, every time I heard Farnborough mispronounced, it did jar slightly! Farnborough is commonly pronounced with either two syllables or three (Farn-bruh and Farn-buh-ruh) with the final vowel being closer to what linguists call a schwa (an unstressed vowel). th-cam.com/video/kjVp_xr0WR0/w-d-xo.html (and certainly not Farn-buh- ROE!) ... but once again, thanks for a great show report 🙂
I’m a regular flyer of Delta and I’m real disappointed that they bought the 737 MAX Crash. Airbus is a better ride, everting about an Airbus is better. That’s why I flew Delta.
Re: A350 XWB - nobody is _forcing_ airlines to adopt 10 abreast seating in the economy. Heck, they don't even have to _have_ economy section, if they recon that's how they will earn more. This has nothing to do with the aircraft, and everything to do with airline business model.
the XWB being 6 inches wider in the body, across 9 seats, does not sound like it goes a long way in improving comfort. that's less than 1 inches more per seat, assuming the aisles are kept the same width. Does it really make it that much better?
That 737 MAX deal really seems suspicious and somewhat reeks of desperation on Boeing part. But maybe that's just my bias against 737 MAX - I think that plane should have never been made, as its essentially just a 60-year old 707 fuselage fitted with giant engines. Boeing should have focused on the 757 instead.
Well, CSeries delays and Bishop expansion cancellation have been holding them back. They are now resuming their long due growth with E2 and new Pearson hub.
Porter gave up on the a220 because Toronto city centre airport needed to be expanded but the city struck it down and I guess in the time since airbus bought the program they’ve had a change of heart.
@tahnalos Regarding the political thing, I won't be surprised if E2 isn't a big middle finger to those who turned down Bishop expansion. CSeries isn't not only slightly better on field performance, but also domestic built, so they can have the "support local economy" narrative than let's say, E-jet or ATR. Once this prospect is gone Porter can get whatever aircraft that make sense, and E2 are quite similar in terms of economy.
@tahnalos I see. I'm not a Canadian so I'm not 100% sure. But I think the original CSeries order was sort of a bundled deal to an extension of Bishop's runway and facilities, together with a bridge or sth like that? That sounds very political even for an outsider like me.
Porter’s deal for the C-Series expired. They would have ended up at the back of the list for deliveries and prices would be at current prices. Embraer having the available delivery schedule and low sales I’m sure lead to a hell of a deal for Porter. The schedule was originally to receive 2 planes per month until the 30 were delivered. Now with the Transport Canada certification delays and additional orders they could be looking at close to 3 planes a month. I guess Porter being a jet operator is a new start up but the company has been operating for 16years now so not really a start up. Looking forward to what I can expect and figure will be a JetBlue style service in Canada
You didn't mentioned the fact that Boeing is planning to cancel 737 Max 10 if congress doesn't give them extension for a law which mandidated to update all the aircraft warning systems. Because if certification doesn't happen this year, then Boeing will have to completely redesign the cockpit of 737 Max 10.
And this if correctly done can make all EASA and CAAC orders impossible, because they lose common type rating. That's basically lost case, with Max10. That's mean u need new pilots to fly it.
There is so much transatlantic travel that when i was trying to go from Philadelphia to new york the other day we spent more time on the ground in traffic with 787s then in the air
You have to be joking thinking that Airbus was a loser this week. Airbus made it clear That this week wasn’t to announce orders, but to deal with supply chain issues.. But never the less it’s good to see Boeing receiving orders.
They made that clear because they likely knew they weren't going to secure the big orders they were rumored to. By tamping down expectations ahead of time the weekend appears less disapointing than it was
Let’s pickup this convo in a few weeks, I’m sure you’ll see the big orders coming in. I mean think about it they could’ve announce the Chinese airlines orders this week instead of the beginning of the month.. Not taking anything from Boeing this week, it was good to see the Max ordered announcements this week.
It’s the Monday after the airshow 41 aircraft order announcement from Airbus… again the airshow wasn’t use by Airbus to announce orders, it was to deal with supply chain issues
I flown on a 3-4-3 economy class 777-300ER with EVA Air once, definitely not recommended because it was too tight. Same with 3-4-3 on a 747-400. Airlines should have look at JAL where they do 2-4-2 economy and it was so much better for passenger comfort.
I'm glad Embraer had a somewhat good show, with all the rules and codes that make their introduction of E2's in US is a bummer, but Porter picking them over the 220 was a jolt!
India WILL order Airbus aircraft, but in next month as far I noticed on various news outlets. The announcement may come on the day of independence of India
It's not a done deal as of yet. It's largely spectulated that Air India would get 50 A350s and at least some MAXes, around 150?. India is a market too big for Boeing to loose, and they'd offer a deal Air India cannot refuse. A321NEO is a given, especially when the airports on Himalayias are too challenging for large MAXes. But it seems like Airbus doesn't have the capacity to cater all AI's needs even if they wish to. 787 side is extremely quiet, which is odd imo. 777X probably unlikely.
@@steinwaldmadchen Yes of course not a done deal, but I heard from someone in Airbus too that they are stirring the pot for India (although it was said to me at least 3-4 months ago, don't know if its still viable). but, nevertheless, something is coming. I hope some good will come soon in aviation industry.
@@mdasifrezwanshishir742 tbf 350 is the way to go. Intl flights are currently in the hands of foreign carriers. A newborn Air India can regain it with direct flights, and 350 has the unmatched payload - range and economy for the job, especially for US - India flights. I doubt Boeing can easily offer an alternative other than 789, and understandably nothing was heard for 787 and 777X at all. It would also be another testiment for 350, especially for the slower-selling 35K. The big question is narrowbody. It sounds like Boeing can finally get a foothold in a growing market full of A320s. The question is how many. Though, Tata is not likely to ditches their 320s, and MAX9/10 simply aren't suitable for high terrain airports, so at least some 320NEOs are expected. Interestingly, it seems like Jet Airways is also dealing with Airbus with 320/220, as opposed to common wisdom. They're probably eyeing for cheap sacked Russian frames, but nevertheless a good coup for Airbus.
It is not Farnburrow, it is Farnburrah and I should know having sat through the first 4 days worth of displays including watching the A350 and 777X do low level turns and banks over a heavily built up area, plus the F-35 coming in on Tuesday
If this is supposed to be "winners and Losers at Farnborough", perhaps it would have been good to actually have some Farnborough footage? Otherwise, this is just a smoke screen for selling something...
This video is so surprisingly skewed in favour of Boeing, it downplayed so many of the horrible possibilities they are looking at. The Delta deal for example was achieved at a massive fucking discount to save Boeing, and with all the systemic quality issues profligate at Boeing, we will be looking forward to more Delta airline appearances in future Air Crash Investigations episodes.
I work on the military side of Boeing. But, in my opinion, we need to widen the cabins. The seat widths were set in the 1960’s. Has anyone noticed that people are wider now? Make it in a way that the airlines can’t collapse the width per seat. I can’t help you on pitch (the distance between each seat). If I was a competitor, I’d do the next gen against the 737. Boeing won’t be moving to bat wing styled nex gen. Or to a hybrid plane. It’ll take a competitor outside of the industry. Once a competitor comes out with a 737 market plane with 30% more efficiency, then end is near for 737 and for Boeing Commercial Aviation.
This video is incredibly biased towards Boeing. According to your video, 9 orders was a win for the 787 and Boeing while Airbus apparently "lost" after securing over one hundred orders for A320 family aircraft including the brand new A321neoXLR. Of course Boeing capitalized on the airshow and secured hundreds of orders for the Max but saying the A350 "lost" because of a few inches of cabin width is simply untrue. To add to this, you can't base Airbus' success on rumors and how they eventually didn't come to fruition. For example, people believed the 777X would sell a lot at the airshow but due to the recent postponing of the 777X, they didn't receive as many orders as was hoped but you would never mention that in your video. It would be more accurate to say Boeing did better than Airbus while Airbus, although lacking in it's ability to capitalize on the airshow, still did well under the circumstances such as recovering from the pandemic etc. But apparently it's completely fine to praise Boeing because you are an American talking to Americans.
@@cobyexplanes I get that 9 787 orders are a big deal due to the fact that the program has stagnated over the past year but equally you said that the fact that Airbus has added 1 extra seat in width to the A350 while also promising to increase cabin width, is just a outright loss for the aircraft. I think you can agree that this is nothing to do with order size while also being completely inaccurate. Also, to simply cast aside the successes of the A320 family is just unfair. It also poorly represents how well Airbus has marketed the aircraft for the post pandemic industry where the new emphasis is on point-to-point flying. Also, marketing the Max post-pandemic is something that Boeing has been worse at doing than Airbus due to the fact that the Max order books are about 25% less than that of the A320 family but again, you don't mention that, in fact according to you the Max was a massive success simply because of the size of it's orders as opposed to "context". You also have to be able to see that your praising of Boeing and criticizing of Airbus is night and day.
@@kenka25101 … Agree 100%.. Appears to come across as being a Boeing fan boy !! Massive let down? 4 seats together makes for better family options for sitting together.. Independent video would make for better viewing..
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stop the cap
nah
No.
Condor Airlines just came through for Airbus. lol
X
Disappointed we didn’t see get to see Boris Johnson parachute into the show :(
lmao
But Paris Hilton parachuted in ...
If only
@@cobyexplanes If only
@@cobyexplanes If only
Aircraft manufactures can make their new jets spacious and comfortable, but it's all made pointless when carriers who buy the planes will outfit the interior to maximize profit over passenger comfort.
Except that airlines don't do that; they do two other things. The first is to dramatically increase passenger comfort which also increases profits and is in fact generating the majority of profit on flights. This is known as "business class." The second is to make as many passenger seats as possible available in their far less profitable area of the aircraft so as to make cheap tickets available to as many as possible. This is known as "economy class."
The airlines would just _love_ it if passenger priority really was comfort; more people would buy business class tickets, business class sections would get bigger and the airlines would make more money. But while people might complain about being crammed into small seats, what they actually choose to buy reveals that most travelers' preference is for that if it saves them money.
There's an old joke about revealed preference: Two economists are walking past a Porsche dealership. Looking in the window, one says to the other, "I want that car." The other says, "No you don't."
@@Curt_Sampson Incorrect. As someone who has done over 30 return flights LON to SYD we are not given the choice of 'just enough seat width + just enough leg room' It is becoming either very cramped in both pitch and seat width, or the next layer up, premium economy is 2.5x the price at best, up to 3x the economy price much of the time. Buisness class is 5x plus unless you get a very restrictive deal on Etiad for eg.
@@stephanguitar9778 Your post doesn't make sense: you say you were not given a choice, and then immediately say that you had a choice between the seat you took, premium economy and business class. In other words, you did have a choice.
Your complaint about the much higher price is complicated by the fact that you were also taking advantage of airlines selling some seats at closer to marginal cost for an empty seat on an otherwise full flight; in other words, part of your share of the average cost per passenger in your class was subsidised for you by other passengers pay more than the average cost. An explanation of what's going on there is far more than can fit into a comment here, but if you search for "marginal cost of airline seats" you can find details about this.
@@Curt_Sampson I don't have a choice of a better seat purely because I cant afford it. I can however afford 20 or even 30% more, not 250% more. ie No choice for me. On par with having a choice between something worse than McDonalds for dinner and Lobster in a Michelin 3* restaurant wheras in the normal world there will be something inbetween. As for being subsidised, Bull-S**t, I fly around Europe on one class airlines which often cost more per mile than full service airlines doing long-haul, ie with zero business/first class passenger. Also to note, I dont take the cheapest available seat because I have to pay too much for changes etc so always pay quite a bit above the cheapest.
@@stephanguitar9778 _"As for being subsidised, Bull-S**t..."_ If you don't understand marginal costs and how more expensive seats are effectively subsidising cheaper seats on airline flights, you have no grasp at all on airline economics. That basically invalidates any complaints you have about pricing; your complaints stem from "I wish the world were like X" rather than any engagement with how the airlines really work.
And my original point stands: airlines make the most profit on the seats that provide the _most_ passenger comfort, not the least. That's a basic fact, and from that is derived that those passengers are subsidising ones in economy seats that are being sold between the marginal cost of the flight for an economy class passenger and the average cost (including capital costs) per economy class passenger.
I don’t think Airbus was a loser honestly - they’ve been racking up some incredible deals post-covid while Boeing had remained stagnant.
Their two largest “issues” right now (from a sales perspective) is that their A320 family backlog is at like ~6 years right now! As a result, their aircraft are also demanding a premium price (especially the more capable ones like the XLR.)
I’m assuming Boeing practically gave away the MAX-10s to delta honestly - this deal HAD to happen for PR reasons, and didn’t really make a whole lot of sense for Delta honestly. As I mentioned above, a likely reason for it is simply unreasonably long delivery slots vs. Boeing - then again, the A321 NEO would have also commanded quite the price premium over the 737-10.
Even with the 100 737s, Airbus still handily owns the market. I will say that they probably would have liked to secure some more widebody orders, but oh well.
I would call the 777X a loser btw, it’s incurring unbelievable delays for an aircraft which was supposed to be an “easy” upgrade - at this point it has lost a ton of momentum. It’s becoming clear that it will likely be far more successful as a freighter, though Airbus threw a wrench into that with the announcement of the A350F a while ago - it’s odd that customers have a competing option moving forward, as Boeing has just automatically owned the marked historically.
For now, I think Airbus is tapped out. If they can’t build planes faster, they’re likely not going to be able to sell them (A320 lines.) It’s a good problem to have, but certainly makes shows like this frustrating for them from a PR-perspective.
Very accurate and true comment. This guy Coby is so obviously pro Boeing that I've almost abandoned the channel. Boeing is a great company but let be honest now they are behind Airbus on the world market.
also the week before the show airbus announced 100+ aircraft to various chinese airlines. If they really about some winner/loser competition they would have waited a week to announce it
@@richardthomson4693 298..not 100+
I agree Alex!
You are right. Seems like an opinion that results Boeing no mather what!
As travelers, we need Airbus, Boeing and all of the other manufacturers to do well. Should any of them fail, it will reduce competition, which ultimately hurts innovation.
@LLC Agreed.
Glad to see Embraer on this list. They make some great planes!!
I think it’s safe to say that this has been Boeing’s Airshow. They have scored such huge deals during the 2022 Farnborough Airshow. To be honest, I was expecting Airbus so also rack up some sizable orders as well, but at least they still got good deals. I’m also pretty happy for Embraer as their E-Jet E2 program is finally getting some good orders. Overall, it’s nice to see healthy competition in the Aviation Industry.
I hate to agree as I would have loved to see Airbus sell some a350s
@@claimedmedia6167 yo I was wondering why boing did so well? .. European transport is the real hype.
Airbus won a huge order from china recently..so Boeing was due
@@kirtwilliams549 Delta is a well known opportunistic buyer that shops cheap, and there's no reason for them not to buy Boeing. Qatar has burnt bridge and won't order Airbus for a considerable time (nor Airbus wants to have any affairs with them). CargoLux is a bit of a surprise, but others are either top-ups or long rumoured.
@Baxter The Goldendoodle - try adding in the 311 aircraft order from China announced a week ago on to the orders at Farnborough and then see who won most.
Thanks for the wrap up although I found it somewhat skewed in favour of Boeing, Airbus continues to dominate, Boeing is enjoying some localised hype with beleaguered products being reintroduced while Airbus’ consistent excellence is less exciting. I totally agree on the Chinese program, it would be fair to say China is less showy than the west but I did expect to see something on the long awaited nation mover. Absolutely delighted for Embraer, as good as A220 is E2 deserved much more attention than it got so it’s good to see it finally being recognised for how remarkable it is.
I agree the commentary is skewed in favor of Boeing. I think Airbus has a better line of products and continues to dominate the aircraft market.
Agree with Embraer, and glad for it. And yes, perception is skewed, but fanboys…
Well, he's American, so I wouldn't expect him to support Airbus in any capacity lol
I'm really disappointed that Airbus is configuring the A350 for 10 abreast in economy. One of the biggest reasons why the flying public dislikes the 787 is that airlines are configuring their airplanes for 9 abreast (economy) when it was initially designed for 8 abreast. I've flown on JAL's 787 with 8 abreast in economy, and it was one of the best flying experiences I had in economy although I'm not sure If JAL jumped on the bandwagon and went for 9 abreast economy. I've flown in AA's 777 with 10 abreast economy and it was bad! With the A350 and its narrower cabin (compared to the 777), one can imagine how miserable a flight (with 10 abreast) will be.
It seems that Airbus is developing a CabinFlex product for 10 abreast seating for the A350 since the MTOW has been increased that is based on the CabinFlex as seen on the A320neo and A321neo's and the Airspace will still have 9 abreast seating as seen on the A321neo, A321lr and A321xlr. By offering the A350 in 2 cabin styles will give airlines are better choose for cabin styles for their operations and increase A350 orders.
It seems they have been testing that new configuration with Lufthansa: I flew a Boston - Frankfurt flight on A350 for Xmas last year that was the most cramped I have ever felt; pretty sure it was a 3-4-3 configuration. Horrible. Based on that experience, I now check what plane and configuration I would get when booking flights to Europe, something I’ve never done before. I don’t mind paying a few extra bucks to avoid that nightmare. And I’m not even big or tall. I can’t imagine what it would be for someone on the bigger size.
If you don’t want to fly in planes that have 10seats per row then vote with your wallet. Don’t fly with airlines that use it
nothing to do with Airbus, thats down the the airline
I have flown BA ten abreast quite a few times and it's pretty good. It's economy after all
I love the winners / losers, keep making these videos!
Noted ◡̈
@@cobyexplanes but be more objective and do a better research first.
I feel that the 777X should have been in the Loser category, further delays beyond 2025 could have serious implications for the programme!
Why was it delayed again ?
@@yenlard6683 The last delay I heard about was the FAA told them last year that due to faults encountered in testing they weren't going to get certification until late 2023. The reason has not been publicized that I know of, and I have not heard of why Boeing is now slipping first delivery from 2024 to 2025. My suspicion is that their war on engineering has resulted in them being unable to attract the people they need to get the job done in a reasonable time. This isn't the Boeing that did the first 777 by the numbers. For comparison, the A350 first flew in 2013 and was first delivered in 2015, and has never been grounded, or stop-shipped. They do have a paint issue, but that isn't in the same order of magnitude as being grounded and having deliveries stopped on two families.
@@cageordie thanks
This has become my favorite aviation channel. Keep it up Coby!
Thanks Steven ◡̈
I think Airbus can not be seen as a „loser“ simply for the reason that Airbus is so much more and Airbus heicopters and Airbus Defence had some huge wins during the air show. Also, I do strongly believe, That boeing although it is recovering will Fall behind Airbus in the next years, as they have to First Balance out all the loss and Bad reputation from the 737max series and therefore will not be abel to participate in crucial Research to more enviromentally friendly flying giving Airbus a head Start.
The elephant in the room is that
a. MAX is not as competitive as 320NEO as a whole, while simply can't undercut A220.
b. 787 has an edge over 330NEO, but demand for widebody is weak at the moment. Not to mention 787's production issues has made 330NEO more attractive in terms of delivery than usual.
c. Freighter is booming, but Airbus is start eating Boeing's lunch. Airbus doesn't have to overtake Boeing to hurt the latter's profitability - they just has to be there, and Boeing can no longer set the price as they wish. Don't get me wrong, 321 and 350 are solid freighters, but it takes time and effort to establish their footholds.
But nevertheless Boeing earned a few big orders, especially for MAX10 and 777XF are significant. This gives them some room to breath.
exactly, airbus have been winning the last couple of years regardless of this airshow
So true. The channel seems to be a sucker for Boeings.
How heavily discounted were the 737 Max and 787 for Boeing to pick up sales after the horrendous flaws they encountered?
I mean, it has to be a big gamble for the airlines with public confidence in Boeing having hit rock bottom!
I lost a good friend on the Ethiopian 737max . Not going anywhere near em
Lol like Airbus don’t discount or better yet bribe airlines to buy their plane
I have nothing to correct you on!! Coby your segments flow nicely...great visuals and I discover helpful facts. Your personality of "going positive" is refreshing considering the choices. I look forward to your 797 update! Thank you for your many hours putting these together for us!
Thanks!!
It's a pleasure to watch and listen to your videos; such clear, concise narration. Keep up the good work!
Thanks!
I banned 777 10 abreast years ago. If A350 goes this way, they too will be banned. An A320 or 737 seat is more comfortable. If the cost of premium economy wasnt 2.5 to 3x economy I would do that but on the London to Australia routes, that's the price of upgrade. As the A350 will be used as long haul, this would be a disgrace and an insult to passengers. Crossed arms and shoulders with snoring, dribbling passengers in the next seat is disgusting.
It's the airlines fault... not Boeing or Airbus.
@@jcasb9843 The manufacturers are pandering to the airlines. In no way shape or form is this even safe, either re things like DVT, extreme close proximity to other peoples breathing, nor if there is an accident and panic to get out.
Had a feeling the 10-abreast A350 was inevitable. Once the 777 did it, you know the A350 would as well. Big let down there.
I agree. The A350 even has a narrower interior cabin width than the 777!
I took a Cathay Pacific flight 3 years ago in Economy class with the 9 abreast seating configuration. The shoulder room is insufficient with just normal sized human beings beside you. Disappointing seating but a nice modern jet.
blame the airline
I'm not sure I'd call the A350 XWB a loser in this situation. The future passengers of the jet? Maybe. I certainly don't welcome the news. But from a business perspective, the airlines will almost surely see this as a win and could boost sales.
Consider that Delta, who’s flagship is the A350, kept 3-3-3 on their triple sevens, so they’re probably going to keep it on the A350.
Great video! Looking forward to the 797 vid next week :)
777X seems like a winner as well. Can’t wait to see airlines like Cargolux with the freighter variant
777X seemed like a mix bag. We don't know how big that Cargolux order is, but they're using it to replace their 747-400s. They only have 15 of those so assuming they do a one for one replacement, that would mean 17 total orders (2 went to ANA as well). That's not bad but the plane hasn't had a real blockbuster deal yet, and considering the market for air cargo is red hot right now this weekend seemed like a great opportunity for one
@@cobyexplanes Cargolux is not a bad win though. While Qatar, ANA, Lufthansa and Ethiopian are big orders, most of them either have 777F, 777X pax, or both, so naturally they'd pick 777XF. On the other hand, Silk Way, CMA CGA turned their backs against 777XF, while AF and Etihad seem to pass 777X altogether.
Cargolux is a good endorsement as they didn't have 777F and obviously 350s, but end up picked 777XF. Boeing would be happy to stop A350s from carrying Cargolux callsigns. We'd see how well A&B win hearts and minds of other new customers.
But pax I'm more doubtful. A weak widebody market together with a prospect of 10-abreast 35K aren't good news for 779.
@@steinwaldmadchen CMA CGM did pick up two current 777F's though, already delivered as of this month
@@steinwaldmadchen I wouldn't be that doubtful about pax 779. Back in the 90's the 777 only had a couple hundred orders and look what it turned into. Just give it time and be patient, the program will turn out a lot differently than people think.
@@JackJohnson3119 Then you should. 777 is a very capable aircraft, just that it's not the most lightweight and optimised one. When there's a "just right" aircraft 777 simply can't compete.
772 sales dried up when 333 became more capable.
35K at 10 abreast flies further and slightly faster than 779, while burning 10% less per trip and being 35t lighter. What advantages does 779 have other than slightly more capacity? Even at 9 abreast it basically slashs 778.
Even before the 10-abreast thing, some of the earliest 77W operators has already opted for 350 instead. How many replacement market can 777X realistically take?
Freighter is where 777X still has an edge, but it lost the monopoly 777F enjoyed anyway. CMA CGA, Air France and Etihad didn't choose 777XF as their 777F replacement.
Love all your videos keep up the great work. Every video you make is a must watch for true aviators. You've been a very credible source of aviation news
This channel is a recent find for me, and I've felt compelled to watch a sizable number of your videos (I also subbed). You make very good content, a sublime mix of beautiful visuals with very interesting information. Finally, I think these airshow rundowns are also a worthy addition to your content and recommend you cover them in the future.
This format is very interesting and I like it!
LOVE the format !
Great all in one video going over everything. So much better than DJ’s Aviation who just made a bunch of boring short videos over the course of the show
The Max-10 situation is quite precarious though since Boeing has recently threatened to Axe it. This has to do that if it isn't certified before the end of this year, A big Cockpit modification will have to be implemented. This would mean that the Max-10 loses a lot of commonality with other 737's and would mean costly retraining for Airlines.
More than the cockpit, they would have to replace the systems. The 737 is still a 1950s design under the skin. It doesn't have the technology to provide the information needed to inform an EICAS system.
This hole topic should be one extra video worth of content ;)
Because there is so much more to cover than in the video to the airshow.
That's almost moot because 737 pilots required additional retraining and more than 1000 sim hours to operate MAX anyway.
Im Impressed Cody. 100k Subs and routinely fetching 2x’s, 3x’s, 4x’s, that. Whatever you’re doing - Keep doing that :D
Coby* I can’t write tonight :P
First time I’ve seen this channel and it was a great video! I really like hearing about the business wrangling within the industry
Great video, stuff I never knew I needed to know. 🇨🇦
the a330 neo is my favourite plane by looks
I was eagerly waiting for this video. Thankyou Coby!
Always love the Farnburrow Airshow 😁
Thanks for bringing the results.
Love this format, pls make more!
noted!
I think air india a350 order is the game changer winner in the Farnborough airshow
air india will liquidate before it can buy 10 of those.
Thank you Delta!
I wouldn't say 10-abreast 350 is a bad news for either Airbus or the airlines, though. Currently 359 has but slightly fewer seats than similar sized 78J, hence having poorer seat cost. 35K on the other hand both burns and carries significantly less than 779, so neither can easily undercut each other.
With 10-abreast however 359 can match or exceed 78J in terms of seat count, while closing the capacity gap with 779. In both cases 350 would not only have advantage in range, but also in cost. That would be welcomed by some potential 350 users and Airbus in sales campaign.
Do note that 350 uses 1.5" armrests instead of standard 2" from day 1. Airbus can therefore widen the cabin by just ~4" to claim 10-abreast at 17", despite current A350 is 10" narrower than 77W in terms of cabin. It still means the seats would be more cramped than the 77W though.
I am a skinny guy and the worst aspect of Cathay Pacific’s A350 was the 9 abreast seating in Economy. My two normal size travellers were stealing my armrest space. Sometimes our shoulders could touch. Yikes, and this was pre-covid.
It is bad news for the passengers
Well played, Boeing. Now, it's Airbus time. Thanks, Coby.
Airbus needs widebody orders, but in terms of narrowbodies, they need to actually build more planes before they can expect to get more orders, that wait line is ridiculously long
Airbus signed almost 300 planes in the very recent China order, its a while before its Boeings time
Awesome video Coby. Thanks for the info and updates!
love this much better than all the smaller updates!
Excellent video Coby. Very clear and objective. Best wishes to you.
Seriously I like your videos a lot and will also say this channel has really taught me a lot. Eagerly waiting for your future videos.
2:50 Interesting that you called Embraer a winner here. I had them penciled in as a "loser" this year, especially the E2.
How come?
Considering that order will break the Air Canada Monopoly on premium domestic flights, that's not a Loss, once people see what Porter can do with the E2, it'll start selling like hot cakes (especially the E170 and E175-E2, the CRJs are coming up on retirement.)
@@Dexter037S4 Porter is not a "blue chip" carrier yet.
Think about Delta for 330NEO, or Swiss for CSeries. They are established carriers that have traced recrods of profitability, and probably would remain operation for years. Yet they put their faith on an unproven program, order the aircraft with a considerable numbers, operate for a considerable period of time, and keep a healthy after market. They may also participate in used market, which is welcomed by lessors, smaller carriers and freighter conversion vendors. These give confidence and practical benefits to other potential buyers. airBaltic or even AirAsiaX, despite their massive orders, didn't carry as much as weight as the blue chips.
In fact, E2 and 338 (Hawaiian) already lose a few sales battles, partly because the potential customers don't want to owe an orphad.
A220 has more than enough big names on board together with a large enough order books, so it will sell no matter what happens on Embraer side. E2 on the other hand still need to catch up.
The biggest issue for E175-E2 is that it is out of scope clause in North America, meaning the largest customers for E170 can't order it. Meanwhile in Europe or elsewhere, they don't usually take E175-E2 because of its inferior fuel economy (either E190/E195-E2 or A220). Unfortunately this aircraft is overweight.
Excellent presentation, Coby.
Glad you liked it!
Small tiny problem: that delta order is for the MAX 10, the same plane that can’t pass certification most likely and that the CEO threatened to cancel.
I don’t get it either. Boeing is just giving them for free. No other logical answer.
Exactly! And it will require an extension from Congress regarding a law to update the cockpit of the aircraft.
@@herceg6772 Yes, List price is only for enthusiast. If Airbus doesn't have full bookings this case should be going to FTA commission. As dumping tactics
Haha “Dumping” catches up with Boeing.
It’s “Farn-Bruh” … and yes, please keep making these!
It's "Farn-Buruh". I know, I live there.
@@walterxplinge3867 either way, it’s not the way HE’S saying it 😅
I’m sure all the Boeing lovers are looking forward to the next video made by you.
I think Boeing is the main sponsor here.
Nice video bro. As someone from the UK I can tell you Farnborough is actually pronounced as "Farnbra", wierd but that's the English way 😃
Haha I've been getting slandered for all my pronunciations lately - good to know for future reference
Any town in the UK that ends with -_borough_ is pronounced
/-bəɹə/ (…-buh-ruh) or /-bɹə/ (…-bruh).
I appreciate that you gave the easy to understand example of how it should be pronounced (showing how it would be written if phonetically pronounced in most accents in English) rather than just being like "It hurts my soul when Americans butcher Farnborough" so many others do.
@@ericburton5163 Eric there is an apocryphal tale about an American at a London station asking where he can catch the train to Loogy baroogy (Loughborough) 😊
Bravissimo maestro Coby! Your video is sweet music to my ears, excellent presentation. 😀
Yeah man, I love this kind of video!
◡̈
Englishman here: Weird fact, we pronounce Farnborough the same as Edinburgh (in fact Farnbrugh!). So you are pronouncing it right according to spelling. How very silly on our part.
Excellent content, beautifully produced and very informative. But, being an old pedant, every time I heard Farnborough mispronounced, it did jar slightly! Farnborough is commonly pronounced with either two syllables or three (Farn-bruh and Farn-buh-ruh) with the final vowel being closer to what linguists call a schwa (an unstressed vowel). th-cam.com/video/kjVp_xr0WR0/w-d-xo.html (and certainly not Farn-buh- ROE!) ... but once again, thanks for a great show report 🙂
Great video once again thanks heaps Mate 👍
Loved the video! Thank you
Another great video
What about the 777X? That's such a gorgeous aircraft, and I was looking forward to flying on it one day. I never hear anything about it anymore
Excellent, thanks for sharing this information…
Excellent report ...
Thank you ...
Definitely love this format. Keep it up!
I’m a regular flyer of Delta and I’m real disappointed that they bought the 737 MAX Crash. Airbus is a better ride, everting about an Airbus is better. That’s why I flew Delta.
The max’s MCAS is fixed so the max is safe
Re: A350 XWB - nobody is _forcing_ airlines to adopt 10 abreast seating in the economy. Heck, they don't even have to _have_ economy section, if they recon that's how they will earn more. This has nothing to do with the aircraft, and everything to do with airline business model.
That is the thing, passengers do not buy airplanes, airlines do.
@@se-kmg355 Well, passengers buy tickets...
@@bazoo513 But they still do not buy the airplane....
Another excellent job Sir.
Thanks ◡̈
I still enjoy this Format
Great content as always Coby! Can't wait for the 797 video.
Enjoyed your air show coverage. Thanks.
Glad you enjoyed it
the XWB being 6 inches wider in the body, across 9 seats, does not sound like it goes a long way in improving comfort. that's less than 1 inches more per seat, assuming the aisles are kept the same width. Does it really make it that much better?
Loved the video. Very interesting. You did it well.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Danke!
Great article. Thanks for your coverage.
That 737 MAX deal really seems suspicious and somewhat reeks of desperation on Boeing part. But maybe that's just my bias against 737 MAX - I think that plane should have never been made, as its essentially just a 60-year old 707 fuselage fitted with giant engines. Boeing should have focused on the 757 instead.
I love these type of videos!!!
◡̈
Nice overview. Thanks!
Glad it was helpful!
Porter Airlines was founded in 2006. Hardly an "upstart".
Well, CSeries delays and Bishop expansion cancellation have been holding them back. They are now resuming their long due growth with E2 and new Pearson hub.
@David Ferguson They are an upstart considering that they have never operated Turbo Jets/Fans.
@@Adscam Which is like saying American Airlines is an upstart because it was the first US airline to order the A321XLR.
Comac wants to open up the European market, now you know what it's doing about the almost 300 A320 orders
Interesting, thanks. BTW -it's Farn-bor-ah - NOT Farn-bor-oh. That place doesn't exist :)
Really well done, lots of detail, 'insider information' and yet quick and succinct, thanks!
R u sure NordVPN is your only sponsor? 😉
Excellent!!!
Porter gave up on the a220 because Toronto city centre airport needed to be expanded but the city struck it down and I guess in the time since airbus bought the program they’ve had a change of heart.
@tahnalos Regarding the political thing, I won't be surprised if E2 isn't a big middle finger to those who turned down Bishop expansion. CSeries isn't not only slightly better on field performance, but also domestic built, so they can have the "support local economy" narrative than let's say, E-jet or ATR. Once this prospect is gone Porter can get whatever aircraft that make sense, and E2 are quite similar in terms of economy.
@tahnalos I see. I'm not a Canadian so I'm not 100% sure.
But I think the original CSeries order was sort of a bundled deal to an extension of Bishop's runway and facilities, together with a bridge or sth like that? That sounds very political even for an outsider like me.
Porter’s deal for the C-Series expired. They would have ended up at the back of the list for deliveries and prices would be at current prices. Embraer having the available delivery schedule and low sales I’m sure lead to a hell of a deal for Porter. The schedule was originally to receive 2 planes per month until the 30 were delivered. Now with the Transport Canada certification delays and additional orders they could be looking at close to 3 planes a month.
I guess Porter being a jet operator is a new start up but the company has been operating for 16years now so not really a start up. Looking forward to what I can expect and figure will be a JetBlue style service in Canada
You didn't mentioned the fact that Boeing is planning to cancel 737 Max 10 if congress doesn't give them extension for a law which mandidated to update all the aircraft warning systems. Because if certification doesn't happen this year, then Boeing will have to completely redesign the cockpit of 737 Max 10.
And this if correctly done can make all EASA and CAAC orders impossible, because they lose common type rating. That's basically lost case, with Max10. That's mean u need new pilots to fly it.
@@mateuszzimon8216 exactly!
Nah they aren't planning to. The CEO just said it is "possibly" an option, but unlikely it will happen. So yeah it's not getting canceled
@@JackJohnson3119 you can't say that for definite
Can you explain how both the e2 and 777x can compete with clean sheet aircraft that seem to outperform them on most metrics?
I would like to watch the Dubai Airshow winner's and losers, but I can't seem to find it on your channel.
737 Max: yes very succesfull if you are suicidal....
There is so much transatlantic travel that when i was trying to go from Philadelphia to new york the other day we spent more time on the ground in traffic with 787s then in the air
You have to be joking thinking that Airbus was a loser this week.
Airbus made it clear That this week wasn’t to announce orders, but to deal with supply chain issues..
But never the less it’s good to see Boeing receiving orders.
They made that clear because they likely knew they weren't going to secure the big orders they were rumored to. By tamping down expectations ahead of time the weekend appears less disapointing than it was
Let’s pickup this convo in a few weeks, I’m sure you’ll see the big orders coming in.
I mean think about it they could’ve announce the Chinese airlines orders this week instead of the beginning of the month..
Not taking anything from Boeing this week, it was good to see the Max ordered announcements this week.
Airbus still have a lot of booked slots, that's why we don't see big orders because they already push at almost capacity.
It’s the Monday after the airshow 41 aircraft order announcement from Airbus… again the airshow wasn’t use by Airbus to announce orders, it was to deal with supply chain issues
I flown on a 3-4-3 economy class 777-300ER with EVA Air once, definitely not recommended because it was too tight. Same with 3-4-3 on a 747-400. Airlines should have look at JAL where they do 2-4-2 economy and it was so much better for passenger comfort.
I'm glad Embraer had a somewhat good show, with all the rules and codes that make their introduction of E2's in US is a bummer, but Porter picking them over the 220 was a jolt!
India WILL order Airbus aircraft, but in next month as far I noticed on various news outlets. The announcement may come on the day of independence of India
Ah yes, August 15 right?
@@cobyexplanes Yes :)
It's not a done deal as of yet.
It's largely spectulated that Air India would get 50 A350s and at least some MAXes, around 150?. India is a market too big for Boeing to loose, and they'd offer a deal Air India cannot refuse.
A321NEO is a given, especially when the airports on Himalayias are too challenging for large MAXes. But it seems like Airbus doesn't have the capacity to cater all AI's needs even if they wish to.
787 side is extremely quiet, which is odd imo. 777X probably unlikely.
@@steinwaldmadchen Yes of course not a done deal, but I heard from someone in Airbus too that they are stirring the pot for India (although it was said to me at least 3-4 months ago, don't know if its still viable). but, nevertheless, something is coming. I hope some good will come soon in aviation industry.
@@mdasifrezwanshishir742 tbf 350 is the way to go. Intl flights are currently in the hands of foreign carriers. A newborn Air India can regain it with direct flights, and 350 has the unmatched payload - range and economy for the job, especially for US - India flights. I doubt Boeing can easily offer an alternative other than 789, and understandably nothing was heard for 787 and 777X at all.
It would also be another testiment for 350, especially for the slower-selling 35K.
The big question is narrowbody. It sounds like Boeing can finally get a foothold in a growing market full of A320s. The question is how many. Though, Tata is not likely to ditches their 320s, and MAX9/10 simply aren't suitable for high terrain airports, so at least some 320NEOs are expected.
Interestingly, it seems like Jet Airways is also dealing with Airbus with 320/220, as opposed to common wisdom. They're probably eyeing for cheap sacked Russian frames, but nevertheless a good coup for Airbus.
my guy said "farnbro" it's pronounced "farn-bruh"
It is not Farnburrow, it is Farnburrah and I should know having sat through the first 4 days worth of displays including watching the A350 and 777X do low level turns and banks over a heavily built up area, plus the F-35 coming in on Tuesday
I was just about to type the same thing. And I can say with authority as I live there!
If this is supposed to be "winners and Losers at Farnborough", perhaps it would have been good to actually have some Farnborough footage? Otherwise, this is just a smoke screen for selling something...
Liked air show rundown
Thanks, Mike!
I love how in this channel, Airbus is always wrong, and Boeing is always right..
👍👍
…and how boeing is selling uncertified airplanes while airbus is doing it in a correct way from the beginning
he's american, what do you expect
Two 👍👍 Up !!
Thanks!
I cringed so much while watching so many airlines order so many unreiable Boeings that I am sure they will regret in the near future.
This video is so surprisingly skewed in favour of Boeing, it downplayed so many of the horrible possibilities they are looking at. The Delta deal for example was achieved at a massive fucking discount to save Boeing, and with all the systemic quality issues profligate at Boeing, we will be looking forward to more Delta airline appearances in future Air Crash Investigations episodes.
Avg europoor
Love the video Coby! I'd give 10 thumbs up if Giggle, err Google, allowed it. Keep them coming.
Thanks!
WOOO! Good for Boeing. I hope they don't have any production issues like they had with the triple-7.
I work on the military side of Boeing. But, in my opinion, we need to widen the cabins. The seat widths were set in the 1960’s. Has anyone noticed that people are wider now? Make it in a way that the airlines can’t collapse the width per seat. I can’t help you on pitch (the distance between each seat). If I was a competitor, I’d do the next gen against the 737. Boeing won’t be moving to bat wing styled nex gen. Or to a hybrid plane. It’ll take a competitor outside of the industry. Once a competitor comes out with a 737 market plane with 30% more efficiency, then end is near for 737 and for Boeing Commercial Aviation.
This video is incredibly biased towards Boeing. According to your video, 9 orders was a win for the 787 and Boeing while Airbus apparently "lost" after securing over one hundred orders for A320 family aircraft including the brand new A321neoXLR. Of course Boeing capitalized on the airshow and secured hundreds of orders for the Max but saying the A350 "lost" because of a few inches of cabin width is simply untrue. To add to this, you can't base Airbus' success on rumors and how they eventually didn't come to fruition. For example, people believed the 777X would sell a lot at the airshow but due to the recent postponing of the 777X, they didn't receive as many orders as was hoped but you would never mention that in your video. It would be more accurate to say Boeing did better than Airbus while Airbus, although lacking in it's ability to capitalize on the airshow, still did well under the circumstances such as recovering from the pandemic etc. But apparently it's completely fine to praise Boeing because you are an American talking to Americans.
It’s all about the context my friend, not about order size
@@cobyexplanes I get that 9 787 orders are a big deal due to the fact that the program has stagnated over the past year but equally you said that the fact that Airbus has added 1 extra seat in width to the A350 while also promising to increase cabin width, is just a outright loss for the aircraft. I think you can agree that this is nothing to do with order size while also being completely inaccurate. Also, to simply cast aside the successes of the A320 family is just unfair. It also poorly represents how well Airbus has marketed the aircraft for the post pandemic industry where the new emphasis is on point-to-point flying. Also, marketing the Max post-pandemic is something that Boeing has been worse at doing than Airbus due to the fact that the Max order books are about 25% less than that of the A320 family but again, you don't mention that, in fact according to you the Max was a massive success simply because of the size of it's orders as opposed to "context". You also have to be able to see that your praising of Boeing and criticizing of Airbus is night and day.
@@kenka25101 … Agree 100%.. Appears to come across as being a Boeing fan boy !!
Massive let down? 4 seats together makes for better family options for sitting together..
Independent video would make for better viewing..
Would you like some cheese with that whine?🙄
@@kenka25101 or should we call you a waaambulance?