Lithium from Phone (Li-ion) Batteries - Part 2: Li2CO3
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 18 มิ.ย. 2024
- Lithium and cobalt are separated from the lithium cobalt oxide we obtained in the last video, giving lithium carbonate in traditional extraction&ire level of yield.
Now this video is filmed, I'm going to... clean up a little. Ok a lot. The lab is trashed oops.
Links:
/ explosionsfire2
/ explosions_fire
/ explosionsandfire
/ explosionsandfire - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
Any chance you were overestimating the amount of lithium from the very outset?
JamesG Yes. If the lithium isn't anywhere, there's a reasonable chance that it was never there in the first place. So an overestimation of the amount of lithium in the batteries, paired with a poor recovery of the lithium cobalt oxide from the electrodes is the biggest contributors to the low yield in my mind.
Extractions&Ire; Usually what happens in the lab, when some compounds just seem to vanish (and this only seems to happen with the really nasty stuff, like hexavalent chromium, nickel tetracarbonyl, uranium hexafluoride and, obviously, Polonium Azide), is that the missing mass has all migrated into the chemist's lungs...
I'd say check your urine for the lithium; you should be able to recover what hasn't already deposited in your brain. XD
...Yes, extreme sarcasm, cause fuck knows where that lithium actually went. I'm also leaning toward there not having been as much to extract to begin with.
@MRLT what kind of lab do you work in? sounds really neat
Were you following some steps someone else had already tried or was your effort a new path? Interesting nonetheless. Yeah, I’d like to see you try to pull Li metal out of LiCl. How will you control the atmosphere?
Alan S; I'm doing postgrad at the local university at the moment... And having some neurotoxic compound suddenly not be where you expected it to be isn't quite as fun as you'd think it'd be... especially since you sometimes simply HAVE to remove the product from the fume hood to rotovap it, before you could even realize that there's a lot less solid in the flask than you expected...
Wanted to inform you the 2019 Nobel prize in chemistry goes to Goodenough Et al for the lithium ion battery. Cheers
I'm very pleased!
@David bruh³
@@justinhughes4722 it is "good enough" 😁
It's two weeks from their 100th birthday
That Et Al guy gets loads of Nobel prizes, he must be really smart.
The mystery of the missing lithium may perhaps be explained by the fact the solution turned *yellow*
How so?
@@bonbonpony Its a recurring chemistry joke... When things go yellow, your reaction is essentially ``piss``... Or in short, not what you want... There are reactions where you want to see yellow solution and such, but yellow in general is like seeing tar forming in organic chemistry... The reaction has gone to shit in case of tar and produced piss if yellow... It isnt an answer as to where the lithium went, its just a joke at the fact that a yellow reaction indicates failure... Its why yellow is in bold format, to signify the fact that this is essentially a joke which aint really a joke... Its like saying that the mystery of missing cake might be explained by the house which had burned down in your process of cake making...
Hydrochloric acid: **tries to dissolve Lithium-Cobalt Oxide**
Cobalt: No U
No uranium pog
This channel is underrated
Never felt so lucky working at a lab where I can just order any chemicals that I need. Respect your tenacity and passion!
"Fuck Knows" almost made me spit my drink laughing
My guess is this: 1: You overestimated your starting reactants. Namely you had much less Lithium to begin with. 2: By opening the batteries in air, the Lithium ions formed Lithium Oxide very quickly. This would be hard to pull out of any extractions you made. 3: your hot filtering and using a fairly miscible solvent caused a large majority of the oxide and Lithium Hydroxide to remain in solution. 4: heating the batteries to decomposition temperatures would burn the lithium to form alloys and/or oxides that would be released when the batteries "Let the smoke out", for want of a better term.
I like the chemistry you did. However, the extraction of the raw material seems to be getting in the way of raw yield.
The term is magic smoke.
It's a industry standard for when a electronic releases it magic and it turns into smoke.
@@youkofoxy Sure.
@@youkofoxy its tough to say. the angry pixies that escape, the magic smoke, those electrical terms im sure correlate to chemical processes in some way, but are you sure there isnt any release of shmoo involved here?
I enjoy your videos, never have I had more fun watching them
6:24 was a very satisfying moment, nice work.
I know your feelings! I once wanted to extract neodymium from magnets and hat a yield of 1%.
so basicly, they ripping us off, because the lithium or neodymiun is VERRY litle....
@@hdj81Vlimited Neodymium magnets are still strong and Li-Ion batteries are still very small and dense with power... ?
From what I understand from researching batteries is that most of the Lithium is bound up in the electrolyte Lithium Hexafluro Phosphate, which is in a non-polar organic solvent. I've been a little concerned about dealing with this due to the Hexafluro Phosphate hydrolyzing to HF on contact with water. Love the channel though. Fellow Aussie here. Subbing and expect a few questions from me.
Seeing how fast chemistry gets messy really drives home the point of why Walt needed the super lab.
Back in organic chemistry III, there was a question on a test on how to isolate a compound. I couldn't figure out how to do it directly, so I took a round about way to isolate it.
Instructor marked it wrong, because he claimed the yield would be too low. But hey, yield wasn't part of the question, was it? I talked my way into getting partial credit, because it would have produced the desired result. Heh...
Yields are goddamn overrated!
smart and funny! love your channel man! keep it up
Dude next time you need to get rid of some heavy metal ions you should use EDTA (ethylene diamine tetra-acetic acid). Cool stuff. Gotta love chelation. Sure, it’s normally sold as the tetra sodium, I have faith in you to think of a way around that.
lovely colors!
My professor - "remember, be methodical and scientific and use the passive voice"
Real world - "FUCK KNOWS."
I once gave a presentation to my uni group, and a professor said to me "good presentation, but 'shit' really isn't a good technical word to be using here"
"Pee-Haych"
Rhodanide from now on I'm going to avoid all acids and bases and only work in solid state and neutral solutions, so I no longer have to ever say pH again
Extractions&Ire; Neutral solutions still have a pH of 7 though... XD
Edit: What about just inverting the scale and use pOH in stead? Start a trend!
Extractions&Ire pls no, I love how you say it
Very Nice! Will definitely try it!
I was really sh!t at chemistry in high school and I only vaguely understand what you're doing but I find it very entertaining. I wish I could do extractions & ire to accomplish explosions and fire. Probably for the best that I can't. I'd probably die.
Dude, why are you always so down on yourself and your channel? Its so incredibly entertaining!
Hey, it's a bit late, but FYI a group of researchers just discovered that the PET plastic film used to wrap the electrolyte in these is frequently converted to DMT, a pink byproduct.
The head researcher's name is Metzger if you want to look into it.
I think you should get a mass spectrometer. I mean, I have no idea about that stuff but if you had it, would it be possible to take samples of each processing step and determine how much lithium is in there? that way you could find out where you make your yield worse
Hello friend!
Maybe a better workup of the battieries would help? The graphite may be interfering-- did you consider burning it off in a furance?
Also, did you consider forming a metal complex with higher affinity for cobalt than just the oxalate? Not sure what the best way to do that is though.
Finally, maybe a solvent extraction of some sort may work for the lithium? After boiling down the mixture of cobalt and lithium chlorides, maybe you could find a solvent where one is soluble and the other isn't. It should be easy to see which is which by following the cobalt.
EDIT: forgot to mention-- ammonium salts are your friend when it comes to alkali metal extractions. They behave like alkali metal salts in solution but can be burned off at the end.
11:46 lol loved that. I busted out laughing. Expecting some big explanation or theory on what happened and got “Fuck knows. Honestly don’t have a clue.”
God yeah.... playing with Hydrochloric in the shed..... "why the hell are all my tools rusty?!!"
you burned the batteries to get the raw ash product .... did you maybe burn off the lithium ? like 90% of it ?
PiE nah I just tried burning one battery, and that didn't work so well so I just cut open the others. Would've probably got a better recovery of could actually have burnt them! But yeah the sealed steel casing really made them want to blow up rather than burn
Would it be better to use ammonium hydroxide to precipitate the lithium instead of an alkaline metal? I realize some transition metals will complex with ammonia but that shouldn't hurt.
Cobalt (III) nitrate is green, and the hexahydrate of cobalt (II) chloride is pink, and cobalt (II) oxalate is also pink
Cobalt (II) oxalate is normally obtained from cobalt chloride and ammonium oxalate or from cobalt bromide and oxalic acid
did u calculate how much cobalt per battery/kg of batteries?
and could u try making Na cobaltinitrite?
Transitional elements make complex compounds,extracting one of them is very difficult!
so did u ever do the electrolysis of molten lithium chloride?
enjoyed this
Might the black sludge have Manganese dioxide in it? That would explain the evolution of chlorine when HCl was added.
Not gonna lie. I like to smoke a cone and watch your vids. 👍
hah i was just about to say the same thing
Just 1?
What is a cone?? 🤔🤔🤔
@@waltersobchak7275 weed
@@CimboAkinci I thought he was talking about a pine cone or something
“You didn’t see graphite because it’s not there” Everyone should know what this is from
Oxalic acid would leach the Li but precipitate the Co. You can use KOH to bring up the pH to about 3.0 for a good precipitation.
Can you tell how much quantity we should add koh for 100 ml of Lipf6 electrolyte
If you get some more carbonate you could use it to make lithium chloride and do a fused salt electrolysis. It's quite fun to do (apart from the formation of chlorine gas) and by mixing it with potassium chloride you lower the melting point down to around 450°C.
Random Experiments International I was trying to remember whose video is seen that made it look easy... That was you!! Very nice work, a few years ago now it must be.
Interesting that you managed to do the electrolysis without the lithium melting. Lithium melts at 450 C, which is roughly the melting point of the eutetic, did you take any steps to make that happen??
Yes, it's one of my older videos, which are on my german channel now. I was surprized too, that the lithium was not molten. I looked it up again and according to some sources it seems the mixture even melts at 352°C (I said 450°C in the video...). This might be the answer. :D I only made a mixture of 52% lithium chloride and 48% potassium chloride and heated it until it was molten.
I'll put the link in a separate comment, so it can be deleted if someone doesn't like the self-promotion :D th-cam.com/video/eytU_eY-dfk/w-d-xo.html
quick thought....would the white powder on the plastics be either Li carbonate already converted from use of the battery....or maybe li Hydroxide
it could be that in video one where you got your calculation of multiplying the ampere-hours by .3 to come up with a number of grams of lithium is incorrect.
Perhaps some additional research in that area might yield the calculation you're looking.
Welcome to the wonderful world of cobalt complexes!
AguaFluorida cobalt is lovely isn't it! I always love having an excuse to pull out the cobalt salts and do something cool
I'm out of cobalt at the moment but have an overall plan of extracting it from old high-speed drill bits and/or blue glass! Can't remember why I wanted the cobalt any more but that brown/pink colour change is rather interesting. I think it's due to a temperature dependent equilibrium between isomeric forms of cobalt complex.
Btw, I've said before, but I really like your presentation style, keep up the good - if, at times, shambolic (but I think that's what makes it special) - work. And good luck with finding that lithium. I've been hoarding old LiPO batteries for exactly the same reason so I'm glad you've struck out into this virgin territory so we can all learn from your mistakes ;)
Here is what we have done so far
-teardown of battery
Everything in HCl
-Final wash with aqua regia (just before that we took copper foil out)
-we got nice light violet color
That cobalt chloride seems to have very diffrent color than ours?
Also in our batteries was some ammonia which was so damm strong i had to leave and change my filter to a gas one
The Chemical Workshop well if there's ammonia, that'll probably change the colours a bit. Cobalt chloride likes to be different anyway, sometimes blue or pink, so don't worry too much about the colours, just trust your metal chemistry instincts!! Sounds like good progress
@@alienrocketscienceshared8454😮
For the flame colour Lithium requires a much lower temperature than Sodium for the vibrant flame colour. So keeping at the outside of the flame, so it just barely changes the flame colour makes it much easier to see whether Lithium is present. (Or Calcium and even Potassium)
This is helpful, thank you!
@@ExtractionsAndIre That's how I got to always skip properly isolating and testing for Potassium and Lithium Ions in the anorganic labs. ;-)
double displacement wooooooo learning
Some Love the smell of Napalm in the morning. Others love the smell of success and burning.
The lithium would be in the electrolyte as well as the separators. When charging and discharging the lithium migrates from the anode and the cathode. You probably lost a good amount not processing those as well. Or least I am told...
Lithium reacts with sodium carbonate to form lithium hydroxide. You can actually heat lithium hydroxide, and that will form lithium carbonate precipitate.
Lithium is highly soluble with water and actively tries to enter the hydroxide form when in water. Its likely that you had that a lot in the initial leeched solution. Though that would look much like water, but with a different refractive index.
Also that looks for sure like lithium carbonate, i used to work with it for a couple years.
First: Get lithium batteries
Then: make cocaine
Tidiran Primary Lithium Cells would likely be a more efficient if not as educational method to get lithium metal :)
imo dumping the Co ox/C mixture into piranha soln is a better idea than HCl since piranha soln could both reduce Co(iii) and oxidize C, making filtering step easier (less insol impurities after rxn)
TM Fan interesting, didn't even think of that. Would perhaps be cleaner, but I think the time wasted in the filtration step was worth it to not waste peroxide and sulfuric acid for me... Ok they're not that expensive.... It's a good thought honestly
😅
@@ExtractionsAndIre😅
6:30 Nah, man. That's a blueberry smoothie.
Don't feel bad. Life is only 2% enjoyable, so really, God needs to explain his yield.
14:13 Is that the beaker thats been sitting on top of the speaker in your lab forever? Which looks like it's formed a weird crusty layer on top? I keep seeing it in the background of your videos wondering wtf is in it. Now I think it looks similar to that, lol.
Haha no, that's actually from the Ferrate live stream, the solution that ended up with plasticine in it during the Explosive Polymers video. I think the plasticine is still in there?
@@ExtractionsAndIre ohh ok. I loved that episode! I plan on doing some nerdy chemistry this weekend, but nothing with energetics (i live in a neighborhood full of kids and old folks, and my neighbor is a cop, lol)
great video again! I was thinking...if you want to collaborate on a video ? maybe i could check purity or radioactivity for you...let me know what you think if its feasible..
keep up the great work!
Can't really ship or do much radioactive stuff really... But your XRF setup can work out any element? Well like, the heavier ones (usual XRF kinda thing?)
@@ExtractionsAndIre yes sir. It works best for heavier element after about zinc . It's very good at identifying an unknown but I can't quantify anything... For that I can take it to work and run it through the ICP-MS if we have standard for it. and if there's enough of it (more than 1ppb) I can do isotopic ratio ..
I used to fool around with chemicals making simple crystals and inorganic chemicals, when I was 15-16. I realize now I did wear the bare minimum of PPE and had simple fan-in-garage ventilation. I tried making chlorine gas once. *ONCE*.
I discovered you can make a silver mirror using hydrochloric acid and tin, basically you leave the stannous chloride in the sun for a week and the tin crashes out leaving a chlorine solution and tin...
alt title: how to extract cobalt from lithium batteries.
for me is possible that diffrent batteries have different chemistries so probably you're ending up with diffrent ions other than cobalt
You can actually buy lithium carbonate over eBay in Australia now
y not try make a Co(iii) salt eg Co(NH3)6Cl3 if u think u have 2 much Co on hand?
Use some of your cobalt salts to make Potassium cobaltinitrite, then buy some canvas and use the Potassium cobaltinitrite to paint "Yellow chemistry is the piss" and auction it off at some art expo for a million bucks
So if you actually have a bunch of sodium contaminants in the final product, then that makes your yield even poorer, given that Sodium is more than 3x as massive as lithium.
I think you precipitated a lot of lithium oxalate... adding the sodium hydroxide to the warm solution decreased its solubility.
can anyone do things like this or do you need to go to schools and classes?
I like your channel more than Nile Red. Period.
Is brown the new pink in Oz?
lol, only 1:30 into the video, but i think your acid isn't working b/c LiO is extremely basic, and as soon as you neutralize some of it with acid, more Li dissolves into solution. well, that's my guess, but let's see
After the filter it looked like nyquil. Probably tastes just as good
Do a flame test. Lithium is purplish red. Cobalt glass will block Sodium lines.
what is LST white three sulfive any one can tell me I need help
I laughed my ass of when i realised the yield percentage was suboptimal
how long did it take you?
Wasn't it on the clear plastic ?
where is the lithium and the cadmium!?!? what are you doing? but no... what are you doing??... what are you up to... er doing
Which chemical can dissolve Lithium carbonate.
Boil the Li solutions down, even if it has low solubility. In 600mL of Water there is a lot of space to dissolve in.
Li2CO3 has solubility of about 13g/L. So I think you are right.
Sven so by my calculations, that 600ml could contain a maximum of around 1.4-1.5g of lithium atoms, which is nearly 10x our yield! By God, I think you're right about this. It seems so obvious now.... I could still recover it!!!
Extractions&Ire If I would do this, I would reacidivy the solution with an acid which Li-salt has the highest solubility. Than boil it down to the Point where percipetate starts forming and than add a saturated Na2CO3 solution
Fun fact take lithium strip out AA battery roll in ball and slowly pour water on it place on hill and watch the lava roll
Need an army of people to disassemble these electronics, or machines. Lot of work here. Why is it that some manufacturers can disassemble entire phones for recycling while others struggle to automate standard trash sorting?
Also wondering why you decided not to grind it down earlier in your process. Once the battery is discharged cant you grind it down and start using your chemicals? Lot of startups doing that these days, but for plastic instead of cut and wash.
Also - isnt this a more typical process?
Discharge Energy, Physically separate large quantity materials by hand/optical computer sorter, Grind / Cut Up in large machine, magnetically remove metal, melt in two crucibles, separate at different melting points, grind again if necessary and then process with chemicals.
or something similar depending on how youre trying to refine material? The grinder, electro magnets, and a crucible seem to be helpful.
oxalate precipitation is dependent on pH so u need to neutralise the soln b4 adding oxalate otherwise they wont ppt out
TM Fan Ya a valuable lesson I now learned. I guessed it needed to be more acidic, which seems stupid now but I thought was a reasonable guess at the time
So 2 camcolit capsules worth .
Do it. Produce that lithium metal!
Seconded! Or thirded or whatever :D
Oxalic acid generally needs peroxide
11:48 Hahahahahahahahaha XD
So what your saying is, you can synthesize LSD
There is interest in high temperature electrolysis
so what you are saying is lithium batteries are almost not at all lithium
I have lithium batteries cobalt too much where i can sell it
send me your contact at my e;mail arkrashid20@gmail.com
any remnants of nitric acid in the mix would have turned to aqua regia when you added the hcl
Interesting channel... I like... but get a camera stand before I barf from the motion sickness.
I think it's better in recent vids, there was a render error that blended frames together badly here, makes the motion blur much more pronounced
Lithium Carbonate use to treat bipolor disorder
Just need another ton and you've made 80k
Yeah, naw, the last time I extracted Li from batteries, I chucked me stir bar in the rubbish bin and used me root for a 15% increase in yield
at the end it sounds like a high yield of lithium was recovered.... in your bloodstream
Mack3nzie Dravid Just wait until you see the next Explosions&Fire video......
keen as
probably because of the paper step
Iron oxalate is soluble
rip chem player :((
0,8 g Li2CO3 :DDDD I consume more per a day as medicine
Lost all your lithium during initial oxidation 😢.
if you're ever at the pool and you hear someone say it smells like success, you know who it is
Would have been 1000x easier to just buy the lithium metal batteries
bodes well for recycling not