You can’t project your human feelings and understanding of “boredom” onto a rodent. Their brains aren’t nearly as complex and that’s why the conclusions taken from this study aren’t taken seriously.
@@_Kakoosh So without any time or thought needing to be spent on animalistic needs, such as food, shelter, etc. the mice ended up creating different social groups, became violent and depressed, and eventually wiped themselves out. How is that not applicable to us? It's worse for us BECAUSE of our intelligence, when our animalistic needs are met the only thing we have left to ponder is our purpose in all this, and when we eventually conclude that there isn't, we existentially spiral.
@@deejaydee1578 “mice did this, we are same as mice but just smart, therefore this is going to happen to us” that just sounds straight braindead and makes a whole lot of assumptions. Human beings are sentient social beings that have survived in groups since the dawn of time, so why haven’t we gone extinct yet?
@@deejaydee1578 Wow, it's amazing how can someone be so utterly wrong about something. It's exactly the opposite of what you think. 1) The experiment took away from mice the ONLY thing they do. What you call animalistic needs are the ONLY thing mice have. They don't even have a classification. Everything they feel, think, sense and do is related to obtaining food. That's their entire purpose. Every single neuron in their brain and every muscle in their body is constantly firing for food. They do not have sex for pleasure, it's just another way of survival. They follow simple cycles based on available resources. It goes like this: if food, mate. If not food, get food. Rinse. Repeat. 2) For that experiment to be equivalent for humans, they not only would have to give the humans endless food, they would also have to prevent any meaningful activity. It would be basically have well fed humans with only sex available. No culture, no entertainment, no art, no relationships, no pondering about our lives, no goals, no challenges, no nothing. Just you, food, and sex. Period. That experiment says nothing about humans except of what we already know from torture chambers and prisons. If you deprive a being from performing the activity that defines its existence, they go mad and ultimately their will withers.
Idk much about Hunger Games, but I do know that it’s basically a bunch of teenagers fighting to the death just to be able to eat and live a happy(traumatizing) life
Universe 25 wasn't an experiment about resource abundance, it was about crowding. The enclosure was big enough for 5,000 mice meaning you could squeeze 5,000 mice into it shoulder to shoulder, but it was completely open. There was no privacy. The mice lost their shit because they had no personal space. The same experiment with added dividers to create "apartments" for the mice didn't suffer the same fate.
Eh? I drew the opposite conclusion. With all those things provided the mice overpopulated, went crazy, and then extinct. From this I deduce that what made the mice's life meaningful was the pursuit of food, safety, shelter, and comfort.
@@marmoff. Really then explain why in first world countries, population is declining slowly. In Europe, Japan, South Korea, all of them being modern countries. There is abundance to the point we have pointless and useless job professions like what you see on TikTok. It's also crazy how the phase of "more violence" has alos started, at least here in Europe with all the illegal barbarian migrants coming here. They want piece of the cake, okay that's fair. Problem is, they don't work for it
While that statement may be true, food security is definitely better than 100 years ago. The rates of extreme poverty (data can be found on Our World in Data) were around 80% in 1900, and around 10% now, while it is still a big issue today, this statement can provoke pessimism
Resources aren't "distributed" though. Most resources are created through human labor, i.e., earned by people. There is a no magical pie out there being divided up like you Leftist think. Sorry.
@@Ocarus0Cycle Bro are you aware that rich people don’t go to prison cause they own the courts and the lawyers. Kevin spacey, bill Cosby, OJ Simpson, and all of those rich people in Jeffrey Eipstein list never went to jail. If a pedophile is poor the fbi and police will arrest him and take him to prison. But if a pedophile is rich then that person will get away with it. Same thing goes for robbers. Robbers rob from banks, that is why they go to prison, they’re robbing from the rich. While the rich who rob from the poor they don’t get punished cause they own the system. How naive do you have to be?
Exactly. A bunch of violent hippies do an experiment of a "socialist" utopia, which is a prison cell, but don't realize that socialism is not utopia. I didn't even see any trees or plants there. Humans require trees and plants! And, humans are not mice. Humans can go upper level logic and build technology on private property, something mice cannot do. That changes everything.
The lack of personal space led to chaos among the mice in Universe 25. Adding entertainment and enrichment activities kept the social groups strong and conflict-free.
Fun fact: That experiment was repeated recently, but instead of just giving the mice an empty box filled with food, they included toys and games and enrichment activities to keep the mice busy. As long as the mice had something to do, their social groups stayed strong and there were no outcastes or conflicts.
That kinda sucks, because it rather shows utopias don't work because of the intrinsic properties of a utopia, but because the destructive inner urges of the participants are pacified. It's like a better prison than the first one, but still a prison.
@@JS-kr8fs I'd argue that it shows that socialization and activity are essential to a functioning utopia. All the proposed dreams of a world where people lounge in luxury and do nothing are doomed to fail, while those that propose constant activity have merit.
Are we not gonna talk about how our human society reflects the more recent experiment? That's why we're catered with all of the entertainment and activities such as videogames, movies, bars and clubs, sport etc. To keep us from going insane and stay productive while the population is growing.
@@jessg3416 boredom is essential for creativity. as long as we are given liberty and resources to be creative, boredom is less likely to turn destructive
Calhoun went on to repeat the experiment several times, sometimes giving them entertainment, purposes and productive tasks. While they lasted a little longer than the initial infamous experiment, the result was always the same and all the mice died.
@@KingNirada, nah, he should’ve put them in a much bigger place in their natural environment, not give them task, not treat them like lab rats, treat them like animals and out them in a much bigger place in their natural environment.
Yeah but they would probably made it so there only the necessary room for them to live and only one giant bedroom filled with only bed and one restroom and say they putted 500 to 2000 peoples in the vault and that there no distraction in the vault nothing but beds and boring things like that so the results would probably be catastrophic like other Vault-Tec vaults
This study has been re-examined many times, and Calhoun's findings don't really hold up anymore. The issue was even with abundant resources the mice tended to horde territory and access to food. The mice collecting in the middle were being excluded from the tribes that had taken control of key locations. Calhoun's study was really showing that even with abundance, resource distribution remains a significant issue.
@@MrDizukiCalhoun’s findings are only the conclusions he drew, which were inaccurate and short-sighted. Credit for extrapolations made by those who re-examined his experiment belongs solely to them, not to him.
@@argnator Peer review undertaken by other academics as part of their ordinary scholarship. Please don't make up reasons to ignore information that doesn't conclude what you would like it to.
You're missing one key detail: universe 25 was designed to be a mouse utopia, EXCEPT that there wasn't enough physical space. This was an experiment on overcrowding. Even though the mice had enough food and water, they didn't have enough space. This experiment shows that urban crowding can be very detrimental to community and that it is important for everyone to have enough personal space, even when all else is abundant.
That and the lack of entertainment, it's almost like having no vacation time or youtube to watch leads people to do the only two things they can do in that enviornment, fuck and fight.
That and the lack of genetic diversity, as in too inbred. Seriously, 2200 individuals from 8 is crazy. That kind of inbred can absolutely cause neurological problems and infertility.
They actually repeated the experiment 25 times with variations in each, including entertainment. Also, the size was adequate, not massively abundant or small. This experiment was not at all about overcrowding, just read the paper he published. He states that the experiment is about observing social behaviors once necessary physical roles are occupied (not a statement about physical space being occupied, rather physical roles such as reproduction, making nests, getting food, etc). The mice then choose to seek fulfillment through social hierarchy because they have no other useful roles to play in their society.
If I remember correctly this experiment wasn't about testing what would happen with abundance, but rather to test hypotheses about how people react to the psychological strain of living in densely-populated cities by putting the mice in similar stressful conditions
That and a big negative of the experiment is that the "mice utopia" had nothing for the mice to do. Like at all besides socialize, eat, mate and sleep. Similar experiments that have "stuff" for mice to do (wheels, toys, ECT ) Those experiments didn't have nearly as many isssues
You are right, there was limited space and the experiment studied the affects of overcrowding. They did not have unlimited space, as stated in the video
@@kingcyclops4079do they have those in the wild? No. The point was to replicate a natural environment with abundance. I'm not sure they successfully did that but the critique should be valid
palestinians are in a prison with not much resources and they're bitting the dust one by one because of THE colonizer, is this what you meant cause that's what i know
@@tahaharti3389 I mean in the sense that both Palestine and mouse Utopia are crowded open air prisons where they have very little to do and are dependent on outside aid for everything they need to survive. I don't mean its the same in EVERY way obviously... My bad for picking a hot political topic for the comparison i guess.
The researcher tried multiple enclosures with varying degrees of entertainment and it all ended up the same. The only difference being the duration of the rat utopia. Doing a little research yourself wouldn’t hurt
Even then, Mice, uh aren't humans. He also specifically selected a mouse species where males are territorial, form harems, and kill the pups of rival males, then gave the females no ability to create defensible nests (what they naturally do to defend their pups from foreign males) via how he designed the enclosure. Once the density of males got high enough it became impossible to raise pups. Like dude no shit your mice killed each other you made an environment tailor made to do so. Plus he had the genetic diversity of 8 mice. I mean birth defects were gonna happen
@DeepFriedFrenz112 single moms, apathetic males, lack of protections for children, tribalism, etc. We study mice because their behaviors are remarkably similar to humans and that many of these experiments can be scaled up. Mice have similar brain functions to humans, giving us both experiences in a lot of the same emotional and mental states. Physiology is also similar like blood systems, digestion, and reproduction. Diseases affect both mice and humans similarly as well. We are very alike in the genes. There are thousands of lab mice genealogies and species, and all are recorded to provide the best experiment models possible. 😀
Which is why it's no councidence that at the same time the major media corporations complete drop the ball and start pumping out cinematic attrocity after attrocity, violence and politicsl violence are on the rise. Without quality entertainment to keep people happy and distracted, they have nothing to do but sit around and get increasingly angry and bored.
The space were the mice lived Looks awful. Imagine being in a giant prison cell but with all the food, Drinks, Games, Shows etc. But No outside, No sunlight Always the Same people. You would Go insane.
The Rat Utopia experiment was extremely cruel and very reminiscent to an Orwellian society where resources and abundance were controlled tightly by a central figure.
Very cruel... Almost like human society that way. Recorces and abundance were controlled by a central figure... Is that not also quite remincent of Marxism?
Legend has it, a good amount of mice founded their own H.O.A and appointed 15 Karen’s to patrol every square inch of living space to find offenders breaking any rule they could find
You could argue humans aren't supposed to live in densely packed cities with little to no communal relationship or religion within a system only values personal wealth and nothing else.
@@PerennialWheatthats simply not true, they where not apex predetors and where hunted, the weather killed them aswell. And religion is as old as humanity
@Gration_ "No one was really worshipped until..." What a heaping crock of shit. Primitive people's that have no written language have a concept of Gods. It's a natural and normal thing to evolve, just from basics. Look to the experiment where they taught Capuchin monkeys about money. It took a bit, but once the monkeys got the idea, they happily did tasks for "money", and then traded the money in for food. Then the researchers started having "sales", and the monkeys learned, all by themselves, to budget and save their money for the GOOD snacks that came on sale. And then the female monkeys began offering mating in return for money. With no other stimuli than the existence of a medium of exchange, monkeys invented prostitution. And you want to think that not all people had worship of gods?
There was no abundance of resources, they put the mice in a prison with limited territory and no exit of course they had no choice but to fight. It's funny how humans think that literal enslavement is a "paradise"
This is showing that materialistic "abundance" has no worth for true happiness. The mice weren't free. They were still in a shitty prison with more space for violence...
This shows the conundrum of Adam and Eve. After having everything, eventually, man will get bored and do things that result in his demise. That is why purpose is the driving question of man.
Romans 1:1-32 NKJV [1] Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God [2] which He promised before through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures, [3] concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, [4] and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead. [5] Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name, [6] among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ; [7] To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. [8] First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world. [9] For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of His Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers, [10] making request if, by some means, now at last I may find a way in the will of God to come to you. [11] For I long to see you, that I may impart to you some spiritual gift, so that you may be established- [12] that is, that I may be encouraged together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me. [13] Now I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that I often planned to come to you (but was hindered until now), that I might have some fruit among you also, just as among the other Gentiles. [14] I am a debtor both to Greeks and to barbarians, both to wise and to unwise. [15] So, as much as is in me, I am ready to preach the gospel to you who are in Rome also. [16] For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. [17] For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.” [18] For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, [19] because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. [20] For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, [21] because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. [22] Professing to be wise, they became fools, [23] and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man-and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. [24] Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, [25] who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. [26] For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. [27] Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. [28] And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; [29] being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, [30] backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, [31] undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; [32] who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them. bible.com/bible/114/rom.1.1-32.NKJV@@ufossavelives2024
The expressions Bread and Circuses refers to how Roman emperors etc prevent revolution, by keeping the population placated and distracted. It's not suppose to represent a necessary quality of a functional society
Maslows hierarchy of needs are only applicable to humans as mice of course don't have the same needs as humans and they need much less to be stimulated and satisfied
Thing was, they ran the experiment with variables. Namely entertainment, the result was the same in the end but the difference was DURATION of the Mice Utopia.
Considering the process of decadence has happened in every human society yet I'd say it's a great analogy. The only major difference in humanity is that while the human society is dying, a foreign one takes its place.
The western world is literally doing exactly what the mice did. Basically none of us have to worry about food, clean water, disease, ect. Our lives are easy so we look for stupid bullshit to complain about while we attack each other (obviously not physically). Our birthrate has plummeted and I believe in the original experiment homosexuality was also more prevalent. Which isn't a bad thing but it is interesting and again, very close to the western world's current situation
Agent Smith: Did you know that the first Matrix was designed to be a perfect human world? Where none suffered, where everyone would be happy. It was a disaster. No one would accept the program. Entire crops were lost.
Look up the experiment, the next experiment didn't collapsed due to the rats having toys The real moral is that live wants stimulants and consuming, fighting, and breading can't be the only things moving society's
There was no good life, it was a prison with limited closed space and no exist. The experiment is flawed, and it's hilarious (and typical) that humans believe that a literal concentration camp is a "paradise"
If 4 mice mated together, you would get 16 genetic types of mice, and in four or five generations of mice, then the mice would have a sliver of genetic relation with their great grandparents making it now available to start mating again. That’s how 4 mice went to 2200.
lol, I love how relevant u seem to be thinking that tale u just told was gonna be. P.S. it’s ok to dismiss whatever u can’t buy into. Personally tho, I think u just said that just now mainly because the other very real possibility just frightens u too much to the point of just not even allowing urself to acknowledge it as something potential
If you believe your pseudo-psychoanalysis is relevant, that would be ironic. all I wanted to say is "correlation does not mean causation" @@AndrewForsleff
@@AndrewForsleffMy grandmother had a gang of birds. Fed them, cept them inside in cages. Not once in literal decades did they try to apocalypse themselves. 😂 Don't be a dunce and think an umbrella statement you hear in a TH-cam short of all places, will be gospel. You don't have to believe everything you hear on the internet just because someone said "there was a study". 😂
@@dsandoval9396Birds and rodents are two different types of animals, he also forgot to mension the part where the rodents didn't had any stimuli, things to play. Also a few birds in a cage is different than a 1000 birds in a cage he was trying to make an experiment with overpopulation not just a animal group experiment. The reason of why rats are normally usedfor experiment is because they are a bit more similar to humans in question of behavior and action than other animals, small and easier to manage, the same for monkeys. using dogs or other would cause outrage.
@@butterbox11111 Well didnt a similar thing occur during covid? The extroverts went almost insane because they were locked up and unable to go out to see their friends, go to clubs, all that stuff. Introverts meanwhile? ...nothing changed. For me personally, LITERALLY nothing changed other than the addition of a mask for work - which was actually a benefit. No need to fake a smile when you cant see half my face to begin with. So when society inevitably implodes on itself, introverts - who can live on their own without excess outside stimuli, might just be the last ones to go
What are you talking about. Did you make this up to feel good about yourself? Why do introverts do this. Why must you insult us extroverts for simply wanting to enjoy our social lives. You are not superior, nor are we. We are both human, none superior, none above our share of squalor.
@@Lazy_Gay_Man Okay 1) not an introvert and 2) I was merely just explaining another portion of the experiment. Where does your opinion matter within this topic anyway? No shit we aren't mice, smart one. Go live your life away from the rest of us who are trying to have a good time with our own.
Usually, some type of sickness will get them. Tried raising native chickens once (free range) it got to the point that you gotta watch your step or you'll step on them. Food and water were accessible, water was from a fresh stream, and food was either feeds or fruits from the surroundings. Then, some type of sickness came, and more than half of the population went out in a matter of weeks. It would have been ok if it were just the chicks, but even the hens and rooster were getting sick. Came to the point that we just maintained ten hens for fun. Thinking about it now, a huge factor was the faeces. Chicken defacate where they spend the night, and they usually gang up together. Mites were also probably a factor in the weakening of their immune systems, i remember spending just a minute on the coop you'd come out scratching your body. Chickens aren't wonderers, so the area that they deemed as home were cleared, no grasses, and the soil wasn't fertile that also help in the development of bacteria because there were no greens to absorb the feces.
one thing that was missing that humans have. ENTERTAINMENT. we got arts, videogaming, music industry, movies, etc. give it to the mice, and change it or add more every now and then, and this would not happen.
I used to work in a pet store where we had live mice and live rats for customers who wanted to feed them to their snakes. They would literally eat each other in these aquariums
I worked as an animal tech in college, taking care of the animal labs. Never saw anything like that. What you’re describing is the result of poor husbandry.
@@crow7421 it's funny because hardly any other people will see this post, but if this had happened on reddit or X, it would ironically be shared on all of those AI meme TH-cam channels 😂
Everyone who has endured boredome for a long time will know boredom will genuinely make you go mad. I can't even explain it, your mind just starts spinning.
Craziest part is being bored can kill you Ppl will ether yes go mad or they will just start sleeping so much Also the mythbusters has also done the experiment they had to stop bc yeah they did not want anyone to die bc it got so bad
Nope. The researchers must have made the enclosure too boring, or they screwed up the mouse food and/or water... We know for an absolute fact, that when faced with abundance, rodents multiply and take over entire eco systems!
This guy lied about the amount of space, the researchers were testing overpopulation condensed into a small area. He basically made mice live in a crowded room. One fart and someones getting murdered 💀
@@minimonster3466 Aha! So enclosure was too boring AND too small - makes perfect sense now. :P Because again, it's an absolute fact that mice and rats and all rodents thrive in abundance. Here in USA alone it was documented in numerous farms in California, Texas, etc... and in numerous cities like Chicago Illinois, New York New York, etc. It's proven time and again that when given the opportunity to grow, rodent populations WILL grow! .. So yeah, the explanation that in this experiment they were actually NOT given an opportunity to grow (ie: all kept in a crowded room) makes a lot of sense. :P
This was recreated many times with different ways to keep the mice entertained or occupied while they did last a bit longer they all ended the same way.
Element 115 is interesting can you make a video on that
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good ol’ zoo keeper here; learnt about this in college during my animal management days. The downfall to this experiment falls down to two main factors: lack of enrichment and lack of space. Mice, just like many rodents are quick breeders. They’re also very curious and pretty active animals who are scavengers. Basic needs like water and food isn’t going to stimulate them in the slightest, which in turn results in the mental downfall. They’re hot-wired to scavenge food and now suddenly their water and food is been supplied to them. You see how that can be an issue? An overpopulated place only worsened that factor This experiment is a great example as to why zoos need to ensure their animals stay stimulated. It’s why you may see some zoos giving their animals puzzle based treats or even scatter feed their food to not only stimulate their natural behaviour, but to also give that said animal something to do instead of just lounging about the enclosure. Because a bored animal results in an animal self harming itself or others around it. Which as you can see is what occurred in this “utopia”. It’s an unfortunate experiment but it’s given us enlightenment on animal behaviour
One of the most tragic animal-related moments I've experienced was at a zoo where an elephant was tilting its head back and forth continuously. We saw their enclosure early in the trip and hours later when leaving, same behavior. When I asked about it, a keeper told me it was due to mental degradation due to lack of stimulation. Broke my heart. I'm glad that animal welfare is as well understood and considered these days as it is that such things are less common than they once were. Glad to hear from someone who was well trained for their position.
Let's ignore the whole correlation vs causation bit: Be careful with what you watch on the internet. This short implies it being universally applicable when in reality it's only applicable to a bunch of mice 60 years ago. And even then we don't know of outside factors or even how people would react in a similar situation. Because believe it or not but mice aren't people. And even if this had been done with people under perfect conditions and the exact same happened this still wouldn't be enough to say anything at all about people in general. This is why proper science communication is important. Otherwise people start to believe shit like that.
Plus the mice weren't actually in perfect conditions. Sure, they had an abundance of resources they needed to SURVIVE, but they weren't given toys or enrichment, which all animals including us need to thrive
People keep on saying it is the lack of toys that caused all of this, when it was just the overpopulation. We are seeing these symptoms in our own species currently with our own overpopulation, though in a much less barbaric way.
Let's point out for them to go from 8 to 2200 would mean that a lot of inbreeding happened which could affect the results since inbreds have been know to have adnormal traits like increased aggression, reduced fertility, and the offspring being less likely to survive which would explain a lot of the stuff that happened
it could probably be studied in online groups, like discord. go into certain discords and even though there might be thousands of people in the bigger discords theres usually only 20-30 "chatters" or posters at most and if you try to chat with them you'll usually be shunned, bullied out, or ignored most of the time.
The experiment essentially tested how long an exponential growth rate could continue within a population with an over abundance of resources until it developed a carrying capacity. In this experiment, the exponential growth rate probably would’ve continued had the mice been given proper stimulation.
Not just that... They don't live in one big enclosure with zero privacy, either! This is something like the caged laying-hens pecking each other and themselves...
I read the actual article and: *IT IS NOT A MICE UTOPIA!!!* It completely suffered from OVERPOPULATION. It also DID NOT account for mice behavior at all. Their “enough space” is equivalent to a 1 meter square of space each for a human(who can live like that?!). And not only that, mice are TERRITORIAL. The mice in the center were not there because “no purpose”🙄, they were outcasts. And since they were on top of each other, of course they fought. All other unusual behaviors are clear symptoms of stress from anyone who knows a bit about mice. All the scientists in the research and article-title-readers only used it to fit whatever agenda. Claiming millennial-and-onward generations are like this bc they “have it easy” or other bs.
@@minimonster3466which is scary until you realize that the experiment is stupid and any data it provides should not and has never been taken seriously in the scientific community. The biggest problem is that the mice was given no mental stimulation or entertainment or anything. Yeah no shit they went nuts and started killing each other
This experiment is the equivalent of cramming 31 people into a school bus for their entire life, with infinite food available at ONLY the driver's window and no entertainment or view of the outside world. Doesn't help that he also selected territorial mice that claim multiple female mates and kills the offspring of other males instinctively.
This experiment also showed that having a purpose or motivation in life is extremely important. When animals, including humans, lose this purpose they end up degrading both mentally and physically. It’s really shows that having more is not always good as a poor life might end up being more fulfilling.
@natmarelnam4871 Presuming that I'm ignorant and bias is the manifestation of your own ignorance! Secondly, the fact that you believe that the experiment ran mice will produce the same results if ran on humans further prove that you don't know so much!
True, rats mostly show primitive instinctive decisions as opposed to intellectual decisions unless trained otherwise. Most humans will try to think their way through a problem before resorting to pure instincts.
This makes a lot of sense kind of reminds me to the divergent universe story. Very interesting. Maybe we do need the day to day stress to keep us going.
@@GooseLukeBruhNo? The repeat experiment that actually had stimuli had some of the strongest social groups Stimuli is important, lookup "rat park experiment". I don't think this was a repeat but similar and very detailed on the importance of stimuli
Not only current but past , it happens the moment groups start to form. Countries are basically the same thing and ever since we got them they are fighting each other over the most stupid things. Religions are another good example.
@natmarelnam4871was my comment to simple for you to understand? Comparing a society with "over abundance" to a overpopulated mouse in closure is hilarious. what point are you trying to make here with your edited comment? 😂
Someday soon we may reach the boring dystopia. Many of us often complain about what we don’t have, when at the same time we have more than we ever need.
Similar experiments with people, given unlimited creative resources such as books, writing programs, art, craft & gardening supplies; etc, showed an explosion of creativity, great art and great ideas. One even ended up with a patent. People are not mice.
Honestly, using mice to try and make some point about society has always been fun to me. It's hilarious how so many think creatures with a brain the size ot a peanut can be used to explain human behavior.
@@ByNeoGames Brain size does equate intelligence when the brain is larger than what the body needs to function: Humans have brains many times larger than what their body needs for basic functions, same with dolphins, whales, apes. Etc.
@FaceFish9 this, also birth rates in western cities are the lowest they have ever been, abortions will over take births, there is insane amounts of violent and inequality in cities, there are constant wars, we are a social animal so we are prone to the same kind of break down, its called social decay.
@FaceFish9people don't wish to hurt others, we have different ideas, beliefs, flags, and our world is organized in different levels of bureaucracy that organize themselves in certain ways. That isn't the people, the people don't decide to start conflict for nothing, they just live and they have their own objectives. And you have it wrong thinking everyone has free access to entertainment at their hand, poverty, dictators, religious beliefs, oppression, and that's not the perfect conditions. Also warfare happened when we had almost nothing in our world.
@FaceFish9 Yeah let's just ignore that human beings have never been this well-off in our entire history. The only difference between now and the past is that media and information directly feed our negative bias. Humans objectively have never had it better.
So much of their behavior and biology does map 1:1 on humans. That is why they keep doing all these crazy social experiments with them in the first place.
I'd be intrigued to see what would happen if you took all of the groups that formed and put them into independent rat utopia's to see which group and traits survive the best.
They would all kill each other because the experiment had one major flaw: the mice had zero mental stimuli or things to do. No shit they went psycho and started killing each other. The experiment is stupid as a whole
the groups were a single male and his harem of females He picked specifically territorial mice that claim multiple females while being violent towards other males and killing other males' offspring. So in order to do that part of the experiment you'd have to take the single male and his harem and put in a separate enclosure, just to wait for the male offspring to one day overpower and claim the throne of "the male" as he kills off all his brothers.
"Mice utopia" seems cool at first but then you realize the space, food and means of enrichment did not scale at all with the explosive growth. In the wild, mice would have already migrated and those different social groups would be new colonies. Considering it started with 8 mice, I imagine inbreeding factors increased too.
i mean this is whats happening right now, people are bored and are living well enough that they have started finding things to complain about that they didnt used to have the ability to worry about.
They literally just went insane from boredom.
bingo.
You can’t project your human feelings and understanding of “boredom” onto a rodent. Their brains aren’t nearly as complex and that’s why the conclusions taken from this study aren’t taken seriously.
@@_Kakoosh So without any time or thought needing to be spent on animalistic needs, such as food, shelter, etc. the mice ended up creating different social groups, became violent and depressed, and eventually wiped themselves out. How is that not applicable to us? It's worse for us BECAUSE of our intelligence, when our animalistic needs are met the only thing we have left to ponder is our purpose in all this, and when we eventually conclude that there isn't, we existentially spiral.
@@deejaydee1578 “mice did this, we are same as mice but just smart, therefore this is going to happen to us” that just sounds straight braindead and makes a whole lot of assumptions. Human beings are sentient social beings that have survived in groups since the dawn of time, so why haven’t we gone extinct yet?
@@deejaydee1578 Wow, it's amazing how can someone be so utterly wrong about something. It's exactly the opposite of what you think.
1) The experiment took away from mice the ONLY thing they do. What you call animalistic needs are the ONLY thing mice have. They don't even have a classification. Everything they feel, think, sense and do is related to obtaining food. That's their entire purpose. Every single neuron in their brain and every muscle in their body is constantly firing for food. They do not have sex for pleasure, it's just another way of survival. They follow simple cycles based on available resources. It goes like this: if food, mate. If not food, get food. Rinse. Repeat.
2) For that experiment to be equivalent for humans, they not only would have to give the humans endless food, they would also have to prevent any meaningful activity. It would be basically have well fed humans with only sex available. No culture, no entertainment, no art, no relationships, no pondering about our lives, no goals, no challenges, no nothing. Just you, food, and sex. Period.
That experiment says nothing about humans except of what we already know from torture chambers and prisons. If you deprive a being from performing the activity that defines its existence, they go mad and ultimately their will withers.
This new Micky Mouse × Hunger Game collabs looks great
yep. And it's LIVE ACTION!!!
Looks fire
Lol
Idk much about Hunger Games, but I do know that it’s basically a bunch of teenagers fighting to the death just to be able to eat and live a happy(traumatizing) life
@@MusicalPlayz_YT a lot of people trapped kill each other and survive like a battle royale
"Utopia" with no stimuli? That's just an underpopulated prison.
THIS!
Basically a panopticon. lol.
It wasn't natural. I bet if they were in a field with grass they'd be fine
They did a second experiment, this time WITH stimuli. It thrived!
And an overpopulation of males. Mice aren't human, they don't live in monogamous relationships.
I love how these mice were bored for like a week and went straight to classism and cannibalism
i want to help you but TH-cam does not allow me to
@@Fire_Axuswhat
I mean if I was super bored for a entire week I woulddo the same
@@AnimateTheArts real
A week? it went on for almost 5 years! 😂
Universe 25 wasn't an experiment about resource abundance, it was about crowding. The enclosure was big enough for 5,000 mice meaning you could squeeze 5,000 mice into it shoulder to shoulder, but it was completely open. There was no privacy. The mice lost their shit because they had no personal space. The same experiment with added dividers to create "apartments" for the mice didn't suffer the same fate.
Well, that addition changes quite a lot.
@@Arjunarjunskiy and not random sci fi youtube fest
Huge difference
Makes you think the guy in the video was being dishonest.
1984 shit
Turns out there is more to life than food, safety, shelter, and comfort.
Yes but not having those is miserable too
Eh? I drew the opposite conclusion. With all those things provided the mice overpopulated, went crazy, and then extinct.
From this I deduce that what made the mice's life meaningful was the pursuit of food, safety, shelter, and comfort.
@@medekhguifortunately, human beings can lead more complex lives than mice.
@@marmoff. Really then explain why in first world countries, population is declining slowly. In Europe, Japan, South Korea, all of them being modern countries. There is abundance to the point we have pointless and useless job professions like what you see on TikTok. It's also crazy how the phase of "more violence" has alos started, at least here in Europe with all the illegal barbarian migrants coming here. They want piece of the cake, okay that's fair. Problem is, they don't work for it
@@Microplasticindulgerhardship makes us strong. Don't be a b!tch
We don’t struggle with running out of resources today. We struggle with distributing resources
While that statement may be true, food security is definitely better than 100 years ago. The rates of extreme poverty (data can be found on Our World in Data) were around 80% in 1900, and around 10% now, while it is still a big issue today, this statement can provoke pessimism
Resources aren't "distributed" though. Most resources are created through human labor, i.e., earned by people. There is a no magical pie out there being divided up like you Leftist think. Sorry.
Bingo!
we're doing better, that's good! but let's keep improving 😊@@JoeyCakes2008
Its a shame that people have these pesky things called property rights.
4 breeding pairs. To over 2000 mice. That's a lot of inbreeding. I wonder if that had an impact.
Most animals don't suffer the same negative effects of inbreeding as humans.
Good point.
@coreyg736 Yes, they do.
@@coreyg7364yes they abseloutly do. And our dogs are a PRIMARY example of it.
@@coreyg7364 yes they do.
Fun fact: we don’t struggle with too few resources, we struggle with resource allocation.
We don't even struggle with it. Capitalists who owns the means of production just prevent it from happening to protect their profits
@@Johncornwell103what’s wrong with keeping your money?
@@Ocarus0Cyclebecause it is stolen money from people who work hard
@@damiantirado9616 they don’t go to prisons while robbers do, surely ur not smarter than lawyers
@@Ocarus0Cycle Bro are you aware that rich people don’t go to prison cause they own the courts and the lawyers. Kevin spacey, bill Cosby, OJ Simpson, and all of those rich people in Jeffrey Eipstein list never went to jail.
If a pedophile is poor the fbi and police will arrest him and take him to prison. But if a pedophile is rich then that person will get away with it.
Same thing goes for robbers. Robbers rob from banks, that is why they go to prison, they’re robbing from the rich. While the rich who rob from the poor they don’t get punished cause they own the system. How naive do you have to be?
Daily dose of existential crisis
Morning routine at this point
@@thomasmulligan gotta get it like morning espresso
@@thomasmulligan true
@@thomasmulligannow do a experiment to find out what is going to happen when people get a morning dose of existential crisis every single morning
@@jiangyufengqtps7769idk about espresso i personally prefer a nice 12-ounce can of mountain dew
This is like an alien looking at a prison and being "yeah, theyre all alive. Looks like a human utopia. Wonder why they're shanking each other"
Well well now, I wouldn't call Kim Kardashian an alien all tough she is a freak :)
THIS
Also, he made a really, really bad job at explaining what the experiment was actually like
Humans and mice are incredibly different
Exactly. A bunch of violent hippies do an experiment of a "socialist" utopia, which is a prison cell, but don't realize that socialism is not utopia. I didn't even see any trees or plants there. Humans require trees and plants! And, humans are not mice. Humans can go upper level logic and build technology on private property, something mice cannot do. That changes everything.
The lack of personal space led to chaos among the mice in Universe 25. Adding entertainment and enrichment activities kept the social groups strong and conflict-free.
.
Had personal spaces, "apartments", but no privacy.
Fun fact: That experiment was repeated recently, but instead of just giving the mice an empty box filled with food, they included toys and games and enrichment activities to keep the mice busy. As long as the mice had something to do, their social groups stayed strong and there were no outcastes or conflicts.
That kinda sucks, because it rather shows utopias don't work because of the intrinsic properties of a utopia, but because the destructive inner urges of the participants are pacified. It's like a better prison than the first one, but still a prison.
@@JS-kr8fs I'd argue that it shows that socialization and activity are essential to a functioning utopia. All the proposed dreams of a world where people lounge in luxury and do nothing are doomed to fail, while those that propose constant activity have merit.
Are we not gonna talk about how our human society reflects the more recent experiment? That's why we're catered with all of the entertainment and activities such as videogames, movies, bars and clubs, sport etc. To keep us from going insane and stay productive while the population is growing.
This will still happen since after all, we will all become bored eventually just because theres games does not mean they will not become bored
@@jessg3416 boredom is essential for creativity. as long as we are given liberty and resources to be creative, boredom is less likely to turn destructive
the BIGGEST problem with this experiment is that they didnt give the rats entretainment
of course theyd go insane, who wouldnt?
Calhoun went on to repeat the experiment several times, sometimes giving them entertainment, purposes and productive tasks. While they lasted a little longer than the initial infamous experiment, the result was always the same and all the mice died.
@@KingNirada, nah, he should’ve put them in a much bigger place in their natural environment, not give them task, not treat them like lab rats, treat them like animals and out them in a much bigger place in their natural environment.
Not to mention we can see the same patterns starting to happen in human society nowadays.
@@carrot7590, morons, they have many things to do in the wild.
@@carrot7590No lmao, but they do have fun environments to interact with and a bunch of cool stuff to find
The last mice alive were called “The Beautiful Ones” since all they did all day was groom themselves.
Say word.
@@R41ph3a7b6 word
groom themselves? what are they? disney with child stars?
@@MisterPeels
😂
@@MisterPeelsdan Schneider playing as mickey mouse in the new show, only on disney plus.
Literally just the Eldar from the Warhammer universe but without She Who Thirsts
Replace mice with humans and youve got yourself a classic vault-tec experiment
Yeah but they would probably made it so there only the necessary room for them to live and only one giant bedroom filled with only bed and one restroom and say they putted 500 to 2000 peoples in the vault and that there no distraction in the vault nothing but beds and boring things like that so the results would probably be catastrophic like other Vault-Tec vaults
Except with a barren mental asylum aesthetic.
Criminally underrated comment
Or just modern society
That's why Billy Boy is working hard on it
This experiment was flawed, the mice did everything they did out of boredom bc they had no toys
Yeah I'd like to see what happens when they actually have something to do
Interesting point 🤔
@group555_ it would take longer, but the same thing would happen. They separate in groups and later go to "war".
@cosneanumatei5117, was the expirement done before, or are you just assuming?
@@cosneanumatei5117Source: my own ass
Sounds like a Vault-Tec experiment
It really does lmao
Wasn’t there a video playing in the Fallout show talking about an experiment with rats having too much resources? I’m gonna have to go look
lol. i literally have fallout 4 open rn, cant beleive barney calhoun made a vault tec experiment
@@dariocontreras8733 yup, which I'm sure is the reason I've seen this experiment multiple times with in this year without ever hearing about it.
It is
The ongoing human experiment is way scarier. We are lab rats of mega corporations 😂
This study has been re-examined many times, and Calhoun's findings don't really hold up anymore. The issue was even with abundant resources the mice tended to horde territory and access to food. The mice collecting in the middle were being excluded from the tribes that had taken control of key locations.
Calhoun's study was really showing that even with abundance, resource distribution remains a significant issue.
I don't think that means his findings didn't hold up, rather his interpretation of his findings were questionable.
@@MrDizukiCalhoun’s findings are only the conclusions he drew, which were inaccurate and short-sighted. Credit for extrapolations made by those who re-examined his experiment belongs solely to them, not to him.
Who funded those findings, Monsanto?
@@argnator Peer review undertaken by other academics as part of their ordinary scholarship. Please don't make up reasons to ignore information that doesn't conclude what you would like it to.
Except we aren't mice. Let's see it done with what science claims are out closest link. Primates. Has this been done with apes/monkeys/chimps?
You're missing one key detail: universe 25 was designed to be a mouse utopia, EXCEPT that there wasn't enough physical space. This was an experiment on overcrowding. Even though the mice had enough food and water, they didn't have enough space. This experiment shows that urban crowding can be very detrimental to community and that it is important for everyone to have enough personal space, even when all else is abundant.
That and the lack of entertainment, it's almost like having no vacation time or youtube to watch leads people to do the only two things they can do in that enviornment, fuck and fight.
That and the lack of genetic diversity, as in too inbred. Seriously, 2200 individuals from 8 is crazy. That kind of inbred can absolutely cause neurological problems and infertility.
They actually repeated the experiment 25 times with variations in each, including entertainment. Also, the size was adequate, not massively abundant or small. This experiment was not at all about overcrowding, just read the paper he published. He states that the experiment is about observing social behaviors once necessary physical roles are occupied (not a statement about physical space being occupied, rather physical roles such as reproduction, making nests, getting food, etc). The mice then choose to seek fulfillment through social hierarchy because they have no other useful roles to play in their society.
Also everyone is ohana which means family. Learned that from Disney.
I can confirm
If I remember correctly this experiment wasn't about testing what would happen with abundance, but rather to test hypotheses about how people react to the psychological strain of living in densely-populated cities by putting the mice in similar stressful conditions
Correct, though they didn't even reach half the capacity, because of the "abundance" problem.
That and a big negative of the experiment is that the "mice utopia" had nothing for the mice to do. Like at all besides socialize, eat, mate and sleep. Similar experiments that have "stuff" for mice to do (wheels, toys, ECT ) Those experiments didn't have nearly as many isssues
@@trevorschack7077AS MANY
You are right, there was limited space and the experiment studied the affects of overcrowding. They did not have unlimited space, as stated in the video
@@trevorschack7077and they couldn’t even socialize too. If you repeated this experiment with humans, what would they literally even talk about?
"Freedom leads to chaos" ~Haythem Kenway
This test had a good number of forgotten variables
Did the mice have mazes to run through and wheels to play on? Entertainment can go a long way and keeping civilizations stable.
He must’ve forgot about that.
@@kingcyclops4079do they have those in the wild? No. The point was to replicate a natural environment with abundance. I'm not sure they successfully did that but the critique should be valid
@@Rin-qj7zt But they wanted to compare the experiment to human society, didn't they? And us humans have plenty of emtertainment
Nope he didnt said that in the entire video@@prettybangtan
"starting population: 8" ... yeah, dude just made mouse Alabama
FINALLY SOMEONE GETS IT!!!
Im pretty sure to make a population without needing incest for a couple hundred years you need at least 31 so....yeah they pulled an Okinawa
@@MajorPikapikathat’s for people though and mice are genetically simpler
8 last names 😂
Middle east would be more accurate. It is by far the most inbred region on the planet.
A box with infinite food and water but nothing else is not a utopia for any creature, its a prison. Humans reacts very similar in those circumstances.
it was kinda a nation
@@tahaharti3389 Sure, its the mouse answer to Palestine...
@@1112viggo i don't see what you mean
palestinians are in a prison with not much resources and they're bitting the dust one by one because of THE colonizer, is this what you meant cause that's what i know
@@tahaharti3389 I mean in the sense that both Palestine and mouse Utopia are crowded open air prisons where they have very little to do and are dependent on outside aid for everything they need to survive. I don't mean its the same in EVERY way obviously... My bad for picking a hot political topic for the comparison i guess.
This reminds me of love town
bro its 6:05 in the morning, chill 😭
Sorry my friend 😂
@@thomasmulliganfish.
Fish is love,fish is life.
Ikr lmao 🤣
3:48 am for me
Weird. I read this comment, looked at the time. It's 6:05. (GMT)
The experiment was more like:
Here's a mouse utopia, with literally no sources of stimulation. Of course it was going to go to shit 😅
The researcher tried multiple enclosures with varying degrees of entertainment and it all ended up the same. The only difference being the duration of the rat utopia. Doing a little research yourself wouldn’t hurt
Even then, Mice, uh aren't humans. He also specifically selected a mouse species where males are territorial, form harems, and kill the pups of rival males, then gave the females no ability to create defensible nests (what they naturally do to defend their pups from foreign males) via how he designed the enclosure. Once the density of males got high enough it became impossible to raise pups. Like dude no shit your mice killed each other you made an environment tailor made to do so. Plus he had the genetic diversity of 8 mice. I mean birth defects were gonna happen
@DeepFriedFrenz112 ya but that sounds like America today.
@@andrewalochner which part specifically?
@DeepFriedFrenz112 single moms, apathetic males, lack of protections for children, tribalism, etc.
We study mice because their behaviors are remarkably similar to humans and that many of these experiments can be scaled up. Mice have similar brain functions to humans, giving us both experiences in a lot of the same emotional and mental states. Physiology is also similar like blood systems, digestion, and reproduction. Diseases affect both mice and humans similarly as well. We are very alike in the genes.
There are thousands of lab mice genealogies and species, and all are recorded to provide the best experiment models possible. 😀
That's why the entertainment business is very important in our society. Without it, people will go insane.
Creativity is equally important.
If only they set up a monitor for the rats to watch TH-cam shorts...
Which is why it's no councidence that at the same time the major media corporations complete drop the ball and start pumping out cinematic attrocity after attrocity, violence and politicsl violence are on the rise. Without quality entertainment to keep people happy and distracted, they have nothing to do but sit around and get increasingly angry and bored.
Entertainment business makes you dumber and them richer.
Open a book, be creative, go grab a pint or two with your mates.
@@DionysiosTau not all entertainment businesses are bad. Some could inspire audience to do something good
It’s me, Gordon! John from Black Mesa!
The space were the mice lived Looks awful. Imagine being in a giant prison cell but with all the food, Drinks, Games, Shows etc. But No outside, No sunlight Always the Same people. You would Go insane.
You just described most of America's psychiatric wards lol
That's what's happening in most of the world, most kids rarely go out in sunshine except for school and just stay indoors
@@AlexDawson0427 American mental healthcare isn't exactly known for its quality
@@azearaazymoto461 and whatever good quality exists is incredibly expensive or hard to acquire.
Except that the mice didn't have the equivalent of games and shows. It was just a lot of space... and food and water.
The Rat Utopia experiment was extremely cruel and very reminiscent to an Orwellian society where resources and abundance were controlled tightly by a central figure.
Nobody controlled anything. No scarcity
Very cruel... Almost like human society that way. Recorces and abundance were controlled by a central figure... Is that not also quite remincent of Marxism?
@@m0rtifiedpenguin There was a scarcity in entertainment, so yeah, they were still controlled
You mean like ours now?
@@m0rtifiedpenguin The mice couldn't leave, they were controlled by humans who built the enclosure
Legend has it, a good amount of mice founded their own H.O.A and appointed 15 Karen’s to patrol every square inch of living space to find offenders breaking any rule they could find
shit...
This comment did it for me. 😂
Please stop, you are going to scare the children.
@@WASTECOLAFAN 😉
But then... The fire nation started a war
Werent the eldar basically like this in warhammer 40k before they collapsed
Sounds like Hell. He basically put them in solitary confinement. Mice aren't supposed to live like that.
You could argue humans aren't supposed to live in densely packed cities with little to no communal relationship or religion within a system only values personal wealth and nothing else.
@@TheChristopherlibearly humans didn't have to deal with anything. Even religious bs
@@PerennialWheatthats simply not true, they where not apex predetors and where hunted, the weather killed them aswell. And religion is as old as humanity
@@masterchief5833not quite as old. Neanderthals didn’t have a god, and no one was really worshiped until Persia came into being.
@Gration_
"No one was really worshipped until..."
What a heaping crock of shit.
Primitive people's that have no written language have a concept of Gods.
It's a natural and normal thing to evolve, just from basics.
Look to the experiment where they taught Capuchin monkeys about money.
It took a bit, but once the monkeys got the idea, they happily did tasks for "money", and then traded the money in for food.
Then the researchers started having "sales", and the monkeys learned, all by themselves, to budget and save their money for the GOOD snacks that came on sale.
And then the female monkeys began offering mating in return for money.
With no other stimuli than the existence of a medium of exchange, monkeys invented prostitution.
And you want to think that not all people had worship of gods?
We will fight for resources and we will fight with abundance of resources man we just wanna fight
FUCK NO i don wanna fight shit bro if this happens im stocking up then offing myself when i run out
@@RandomGamer-why don't you invest and grow more?
War never changes
There was no abundance of resources, they put the mice in a prison with limited territory and no exit of course they had no choice but to fight. It's funny how humans think that literal enslavement is a "paradise"
mf WHO IS WE? 😭 these are mice
The amount of times I've heard this study brought up as an argument from people who are against any sort of societal progress is mind blowing.
not to mention this experiment is not being held in high regard in the scientific community
My first thought when I first read about it was , we all need a purpose. It never crossed my mind that it could be held against progress.
@@anshjaiswal7220 congratulations on being smarter than most
Yeah, human and mice have wildly different behavioural patterns, sure we might be a bit lazier but it is very unlikely that we will devolve to this
@@tomdickson3225 on a fundamental scale like this all mammals are very similar
damn, we had the real-life equivalent of 40k's eldar here for a third of a year
"Oh this is fairly wholesome"
"Then the groups started to eat each other"
"Okay nevermind"
This is showing that materialistic "abundance" has no worth for true happiness. The mice weren't free. They were still in a shitty prison with more space for violence...
It’s showing what’s happening to us today
@@MaidenHelll Exactly my thought too!
This shows the conundrum of Adam and Eve. After having everything, eventually, man will get bored and do things that result in his demise. That is why purpose is the driving question of man.
@@ufossavelives2024 too bad they aint real and we didnt come from incest 🤡
Romans 1:1-32 NKJV
[1] Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God [2] which He promised before through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures, [3] concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, [4] and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead. [5] Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name, [6] among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ; [7] To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. [8] First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world. [9] For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of His Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers, [10] making request if, by some means, now at last I may find a way in the will of God to come to you. [11] For I long to see you, that I may impart to you some spiritual gift, so that you may be established- [12] that is, that I may be encouraged together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me. [13] Now I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that I often planned to come to you (but was hindered until now), that I might have some fruit among you also, just as among the other Gentiles. [14] I am a debtor both to Greeks and to barbarians, both to wise and to unwise. [15] So, as much as is in me, I am ready to preach the gospel to you who are in Rome also. [16] For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. [17] For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.” [18] For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, [19] because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. [20] For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, [21] because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. [22] Professing to be wise, they became fools, [23] and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man-and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. [24] Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, [25] who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. [26] For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. [27] Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. [28] And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; [29] being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, [30] backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, [31] undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; [32] who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.
bible.com/bible/114/rom.1.1-32.NKJV@@ufossavelives2024
That is why Bread and Circus is so crucial to society
panem et circenses
@InternetUsernameI feel like the experiment was more all bread and no circus was the problem. The mice got bored. Lol
there was just bread, no circuses
Bread and circus to distract from the taxonomy of bullshit and yes there is a taxonomy of it
The expressions Bread and Circuses refers to how Roman emperors etc prevent revolution, by keeping the population placated and distracted. It's not suppose to represent a necessary quality of a functional society
The hunger game if it was actually good
Flawed experiment. They didn't factor in maslow's hierarchy of needs. Maybe the definition of "utopia" needs a redefine
Maslows hierarchy of needs are only applicable to humans as mice of course don't have the same needs as humans and they need much less to be stimulated and satisfied
@Ilovetosell-hw7bb imagine a mouse self-actualizing, though
Thing was, they ran the experiment with variables. Namely entertainment, the result was the same in the end but the difference was DURATION of the Mice Utopia.
Pov: Your parents asking you why you're sad when you have shelter and food 😂
@@Woadoceanremy moment
That would be a great analogy for us, if we were mice.
Considering the process of decadence has happened in every human society yet I'd say it's a great analogy. The only major difference in humanity is that while the human society is dying, a foreign one takes its place.
It’s basically happening with our homeless. Piling on top of each other, going crazy. Make life easy it creates the weak
The western world is literally doing exactly what the mice did. Basically none of us have to worry about food, clean water, disease, ect. Our lives are easy so we look for stupid bullshit to complain about while we attack each other (obviously not physically). Our birthrate has plummeted and I believe in the original experiment homosexuality was also more prevalent. Which isn't a bad thing but it is interesting and again, very close to the western world's current situation
Difference is we work and have entertainment and means of enrichment. They didn't.
Difference is that we work and have many means of getting our share of enrichment and entertainment. They didn't.
Agent Smith:
Did you know that the first Matrix was designed to be a perfect human world? Where none suffered, where everyone would be happy. It was a disaster. No one would accept the program. Entire crops were lost.
The mice werent happy. That was the problem.
Earth and humans.
It’s me Gordon, Barney from black mesa!
Moral of the story:
You can't live a happy and good life without worrying and problems
Thanks, Gelatin. Didn't knew you're into deep subjects like these
Exactly what is off with heaven
Look up the experiment, the next experiment didn't collapsed due to the rats having toys
The real moral is that live wants stimulants and consuming, fighting, and breading can't be the only things moving society's
There just sounds like a truism.
There was no good life, it was a prison with limited closed space and no exist. The experiment is flawed, and it's hilarious (and typical) that humans believe that a literal concentration camp is a "paradise"
damn, so 4 mice became 2200. inbreeding like mad lmao British Royal Family would be proud
4 breeding pairs means 8 mice.
@@johnyoung4814 That still means inbreeding
@@johnyoung4814 Well do you happen to believe in Christianity?
If 4 mice mated together, you would get 16 genetic types of mice, and in four or five generations of mice, then the mice would have a sliver of genetic relation with their great grandparents making it now available to start mating again. That’s how 4 mice went to 2200.
your trying sooooo hard to get likes it cringing meeeee
This exactly something you'd see in fallout 😭
Human innovation and intelligent compassion are the only resources that truly matter.
my father had birds, he provided shelter and food in abundance, the birds were doing just fine
If he allowed the birds to go out and fly then they wud do fine since they have stimuli
lol, I love how relevant u seem to be thinking that tale u just told was gonna be. P.S. it’s ok to dismiss whatever u can’t buy into. Personally tho, I think u just said that just now mainly because the other very real possibility just frightens u too much to the point of just not even allowing urself to acknowledge it as something potential
If you believe your pseudo-psychoanalysis is relevant, that would be ironic.
all I wanted to say is "correlation does not mean causation"
@@AndrewForsleff
@@AndrewForsleffMy grandmother had a gang of birds. Fed them, cept them inside in cages. Not once in literal decades did they try to apocalypse themselves. 😂 Don't be a dunce and think an umbrella statement you hear in a TH-cam short of all places, will be gospel.
You don't have to believe everything you hear on the internet just because someone said "there was a study". 😂
@@dsandoval9396Birds and rodents are two different types of animals, he also forgot to mension the part where the rodents didn't had any stimuli, things to play. Also a few birds in a cage is different than a 1000 birds in a cage he was trying to make an experiment with overpopulation not just a animal group experiment.
The reason of why rats are normally usedfor experiment is because they are a bit more similar to humans in question of behavior and action than other animals, small and easier to manage, the same for monkeys. using dogs or other would cause outrage.
The experiment simply showed that groups of mice actually require more space for their territorial instincts to be effective and not detrimental.
Yeah... this kind of turning science into pseudo science sound bites has gotten even worse through the influencer economy...
What he didnt mention was that the "introverts" actually survived in peace separate from the rest of the society .
because of your comment i feel like i'm better than everyone else now
@@butterbox11111 Well didnt a similar thing occur during covid? The extroverts went almost insane because they were locked up and unable to go out to see their friends, go to clubs, all that stuff.
Introverts meanwhile? ...nothing changed. For me personally, LITERALLY nothing changed other than the addition of a mask for work - which was actually a benefit. No need to fake a smile when you cant see half my face to begin with.
So when society inevitably implodes on itself, introverts - who can live on their own without excess outside stimuli, might just be the last ones to go
What are you talking about. Did you make this up to feel good about yourself? Why do introverts do this. Why must you insult us extroverts for simply wanting to enjoy our social lives. You are not superior, nor are we. We are both human, none superior, none above our share of squalor.
@@Lazy_Gay_Man Okay 1) not an introvert and 2) I was merely just explaining another portion of the experiment. Where does your opinion matter within this topic anyway? No shit we aren't mice, smart one. Go live your life away from the rest of us who are trying to have a good time with our own.
@@Lazy_Gay_Manhe’s talking about the mice in the experiment dude not people
Usually, some type of sickness will get them. Tried raising native chickens once (free range) it got to the point that you gotta watch your step or you'll step on them. Food and water were accessible, water was from a fresh stream, and food was either feeds or fruits from the surroundings. Then, some type of sickness came, and more than half of the population went out in a matter of weeks. It would have been ok if it were just the chicks, but even the hens and rooster were getting sick. Came to the point that we just maintained ten hens for fun. Thinking about it now, a huge factor was the faeces. Chicken defacate where they spend the night, and they usually gang up together. Mites were also probably a factor in the weakening of their immune systems, i remember spending just a minute on the coop you'd come out scratching your body. Chickens aren't wonderers, so the area that they deemed as home were cleared, no grasses, and the soil wasn't fertile that also help in the development of bacteria because there were no greens to absorb the feces.
one thing that was missing that humans have. ENTERTAINMENT. we got arts, videogaming, music industry, movies, etc. give it to the mice, and change it or add more every now and then, and this would not happen.
How the cinnamon toast FUCK would that work?
I used to work in a pet store where we had live mice and live rats for customers who wanted to feed them to their snakes. They would literally eat each other in these aquariums
So, a microcosm of the world’s political and economic systems - cool!
I saw your profile pic and had to do a double take. I thought I had written a comment and then forgotten lmao
What type of conditions were you keeping them in? I've never heard of healthy rats and mice behaving this way.
I worked as an animal tech in college, taking care of the animal labs. Never saw anything like that. What you’re describing is the result of poor husbandry.
@@crow7421 it's funny because hardly any other people will see this post, but if this had happened on reddit or X, it would ironically be shared on all of those AI meme TH-cam channels 😂
Everyone who has endured boredome for a long time will know boredom will genuinely make you go mad. I can't even explain it, your mind just starts spinning.
Craziest part is being bored can kill you
Ppl will ether yes go mad or they will just start sleeping so much
Also the mythbusters has also done the experiment they had to stop bc yeah they did not want anyone to die bc it got so bad
This experiment was the inspiration for "The Secret of NIMH" (NIMH = National Institute of Mental Health).
IS THAT WHY THEY CHANGED THEIR NAME TO NAHMI????
Nope. The researchers must have made the enclosure too boring, or they screwed up the mouse food and/or water... We know for an absolute fact, that when faced with abundance, rodents multiply and take over entire eco systems!
This guy lied about the amount of space, the researchers were testing overpopulation condensed into a small area. He basically made mice live in a crowded room. One fart and someones getting murdered 💀
@@minimonster3466 Aha! So enclosure was too boring AND too small - makes perfect sense now. :P Because again, it's an absolute fact that mice and rats and all rodents thrive in abundance. Here in USA alone it was documented in numerous farms in California, Texas, etc... and in numerous cities like Chicago Illinois, New York New York, etc. It's proven time and again that when given the opportunity to grow, rodent populations WILL grow! .. So yeah, the explanation that in this experiment they were actually NOT given an opportunity to grow (ie: all kept in a crowded room) makes a lot of sense. :P
Unless there's another experiment to disprove this experiment and confirm your hypothesis, you shouldn't claim it as "absolute fact".
There is multiple @@crayonsukrou913
This was recreated many times with different ways to keep the mice entertained or occupied while they did last a bit longer they all ended the same way.
malthus about to go crazy with this one 💀
Send in talking horse to keep him company.
"If they would rather die they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population" my ass
Element 115 is interesting can you make a video on that
good ol’ zoo keeper here; learnt about this in college during my animal management days. The downfall to this experiment falls down to two main factors: lack of enrichment and lack of space.
Mice, just like many rodents are quick breeders. They’re also very curious and pretty active animals who are scavengers. Basic needs like water and food isn’t going to stimulate them in the slightest, which in turn results in the mental downfall. They’re hot-wired to scavenge food and now suddenly their water and food is been supplied to them. You see how that can be an issue? An overpopulated place only worsened that factor
This experiment is a great example as to why zoos need to ensure their animals stay stimulated. It’s why you may see some zoos giving their animals puzzle based treats or even scatter feed their food to not only stimulate their natural behaviour, but to also give that said animal something to do instead of just lounging about the enclosure.
Because a bored animal results in an animal self harming itself or others around it. Which as you can see is what occurred in this “utopia”. It’s an unfortunate experiment but it’s given us enlightenment on animal behaviour
One of the most tragic animal-related moments I've experienced was at a zoo where an elephant was tilting its head back and forth continuously. We saw their enclosure early in the trip and hours later when leaving, same behavior. When I asked about it, a keeper told me it was due to mental degradation due to lack of stimulation. Broke my heart.
I'm glad that animal welfare is as well understood and considered these days as it is that such things are less common than they once were. Glad to hear from someone who was well trained for their position.
It is 4:31 in the fucking morning I didn’t need to hear this anxiety inducing nightmare before work
Let's ignore the whole correlation vs causation bit: Be careful with what you watch on the internet. This short implies it being universally applicable when in reality it's only applicable to a bunch of mice 60 years ago. And even then we don't know of outside factors or even how people would react in a similar situation. Because believe it or not but mice aren't people. And even if this had been done with people under perfect conditions and the exact same happened this still wouldn't be enough to say anything at all about people in general.
This is why proper science communication is important. Otherwise people start to believe shit like that.
Plus the mice weren't actually in perfect conditions. Sure, they had an abundance of resources they needed to SURVIVE, but they weren't given toys or enrichment, which all animals including us need to thrive
@@pouffling7649lol
People keep on saying it is the lack of toys that caused all of this, when it was just the overpopulation. We are seeing these symptoms in our own species currently with our own overpopulation, though in a much less barbaric way.
Let's point out for them to go from 8 to 2200 would mean that a lot of inbreeding happened which could affect the results since inbreds have been know to have adnormal traits like increased aggression, reduced fertility, and the offspring being less likely to survive which would explain a lot of the stuff that happened
it could probably be studied in online groups, like discord. go into certain discords and even though there might be thousands of people in the bigger discords theres usually only 20-30 "chatters" or posters at most and if you try to chat with them you'll usually be shunned, bullied out, or ignored most of the time.
-So that's how you get rid of mice in your basement huh
-What
-what
The experiment essentially tested how long an exponential growth rate could continue within a population with an over abundance of resources until it developed a carrying capacity. In this experiment, the exponential growth rate probably would’ve continued had the mice been given proper stimulation.
Not just that... They don't live in one big enclosure with zero privacy, either! This is something like the caged laying-hens pecking each other and themselves...
Even then they still kill each other given enough time needs a life time worth of activities for the mice even then war can break out
That's really scary until you remember that we are not mice.
I read the actual article and:
*IT IS NOT A MICE UTOPIA!!!* It completely suffered from OVERPOPULATION.
It also DID NOT account for mice behavior at all.
Their “enough space” is equivalent to a 1 meter square of space each for a human(who can live like that?!). And not only that, mice are TERRITORIAL.
The mice in the center were not there because “no purpose”🙄, they were outcasts. And since they were on top of each other, of course they fought.
All other unusual behaviors are clear symptoms of stress from anyone who knows a bit about mice.
All the scientists in the research and article-title-readers only used it to fit whatever agenda. Claiming millennial-and-onward generations are like this bc they “have it easy” or other bs.
Which is calming until you realize a lot of animals think similarly when they’re forced into states of discomfort and kill-or-be-killed scenarios
@@minimonster3466which is scary until you realize that the experiment is stupid and any data it provides should not and has never been taken seriously in the scientific community. The biggest problem is that the mice was given no mental stimulation or entertainment or anything. Yeah no shit they went nuts and started killing each other
This experiment is the equivalent of cramming 31 people into a school bus for their entire life, with infinite food available at ONLY the driver's window and no entertainment or view of the outside world.
Doesn't help that he also selected territorial mice that claim multiple female mates and kills the offspring of other males instinctively.
@@minimonster3466 good thing human are creative with a brain ready for problem solving
“War never changes” is basically universal
These mice turned into space elves from Warhammer 40,000 real fast
"Something we struggle with today" that statement is wrong on so many levels
Have you not seen the insanity of influencers? Stanley cup hoarders and suicidal teens bc they couldn't get the latest short lived trendy product.
@@TheAnantaSesa That is social media, not reality
I heard you could put everyone in the world in Texas and could still feed everyone
@@CrocodileDendi oh nice to think no one ever copies what they see on the internet
The eldar from 40k tells this story very well
That's what I'm saying
I just remembered that, boredom lead to exceeding decadence or hedonism
This made me think that our ancestors might not be apes but mice 🐭
thats because we probably share a common ancestor with both
Its both. Apes came from a very ancient form of mice.
@@00chla50 no
@@00chla50alright what's the name of it
@@aouyiuApes do evolve from Rodent
This experiment also showed that having a purpose or motivation in life is extremely important. When animals, including humans, lose this purpose they end up degrading both mentally and physically. It’s really shows that having more is not always good as a poor life might end up being more fulfilling.
At this point, the scientists need to be told that "Mice are not Humans!!!"
True. I am not eating/killing other humans no matter how bored I get.
@natmarelnam4871 Presuming that I'm ignorant and bias is the manifestation of your own ignorance!
Secondly, the fact that you believe that the experiment ran mice will produce the same results if ran on humans further prove that you don't know so much!
They know that, that's why they're performing the tests on them.
True, rats mostly show primitive instinctive decisions as opposed to intellectual decisions unless trained otherwise. Most humans will try to think their way through a problem before resorting to pure instincts.
@natmarelnam4871you're wrong in so many ways bro
This makes a lot of sense kind of reminds me to the divergent universe story. Very interesting. Maybe we do need the day to day stress to keep us going.
Maybe any stimuli might be useful
These mice werent in utopia they were in prison.
@@tommo3190 that’s a good point. Like inmates, they also do not have to worry about food, water or shelter.
@@tommo3190 the experiment was repeated with stimuli, same results
If you don’t have stressors that make you think and work etc you will create your own.
@@GooseLukeBruhNo? The repeat experiment that actually had stimuli had some of the strongest social groups
Stimuli is important, lookup "rat park experiment". I don't think this was a repeat but similar and very detailed on the importance of stimuli
Again this re affirms for me over & over in life, never to under estimate boredom!
❤
We all want to survive. If you take that away. Living being will make survival more of a social thing then a physical role
There's a striking parallel with our current societal dynamics.
That's what I was thinking.
Glad someone else noticed
Not only current but past , it happens the moment groups start to form. Countries are basically the same thing and ever since we got them they are fighting each other over the most stupid things. Religions are another good example.
Exactly
Damn yes, humans have never formed groups and waged wars against each other in human history before this current age.
Comparing humans to mice is hilarious
@natmarelnam4871was my comment to simple for you to understand? Comparing a society with "over abundance" to a overpopulated mouse in closure is hilarious.
what point are you trying to make here with your edited comment? 😂
Someday soon we may reach the boring dystopia. Many of us often complain about what we don’t have, when at the same time we have more than we ever need.
Similar experiments with people, given unlimited creative resources such as books, writing programs, art, craft & gardening supplies; etc, showed an explosion of creativity, great art and great ideas. One even ended up with a patent.
People are not mice.
I think it's just because sometimes mice go hard like that. They're not necessarily the most intelligent things
Yea. Mice aren't a perfect human analog. Also to note, did the mice have sufficient recreation? Mice need some level of mental stimulation.
Honestly, using mice to try and make some point about society has always been fun to me. It's hilarious how so many think creatures with a brain the size ot a peanut can be used to explain human behavior.
Brain size doesn't define intelligence 😅
@@ByNeoGames Brain size does equate intelligence when the brain is larger than what the body needs to function: Humans have brains many times larger than what their body needs for basic functions, same with dolphins, whales, apes. Etc.
Arguably the mice have brains that can represent a good third of the human population. 🙄
We don't struggle with resources, we struggle with greed.
I think you comment arrived early.
Sooooo basically exactly what’s happening now to people in a whole lot of places. 👏👏👏👏👏🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Everyone knows a bunch of mice in a white padded room is a great example of how human society works
@FaceFish9 this, also birth rates in western cities are the lowest they have ever been, abortions will over take births, there is insane amounts of violent and inequality in cities, there are constant wars, we are a social animal so we are prone to the same kind of break down, its called social decay.
@FaceFish9So politicians represent all their people? Wait til the dictators and despots hear this..
@FaceFish9people don't wish to hurt others, we have different ideas, beliefs, flags, and our world is organized in different levels of bureaucracy that organize themselves in certain ways. That isn't the people, the people don't decide to start conflict for nothing, they just live and they have their own objectives.
And you have it wrong thinking everyone has free access to entertainment at their hand, poverty, dictators, religious beliefs, oppression, and that's not the perfect conditions.
Also warfare happened when we had almost nothing in our world.
@FaceFish9 Yeah let's just ignore that human beings have never been this well-off in our entire history. The only difference between now and the past is that media and information directly feed our negative bias. Humans objectively have never had it better.
@@lorenzmaut3708oh but they do.
Interesting experiment, however we must remember
Mice ≠ Humans
well look what happens in modern Society and you see some crazy similaritys
So much of their behavior and biology does map 1:1 on humans. That is why they keep doing all these crazy social experiments with them in the first place.
I'd be intrigued to see what would happen if you took all of the groups that formed and put them into independent rat utopia's to see which group and traits survive the best.
They would all kill each other because the experiment had one major flaw: the mice had zero mental stimuli or things to do. No shit they went psycho and started killing each other. The experiment is stupid as a whole
the groups were a single male and his harem of females
He picked specifically territorial mice that claim multiple females while being violent towards other males and killing other males' offspring.
So in order to do that part of the experiment you'd have to take the single male and his harem and put in a separate enclosure, just to wait for the male offspring to one day overpower and claim the throne of "the male" as he kills off all his brothers.
Forcing even more inbreeding? 😂
We aren't struggling with resources. Just struggling with taking care of the land we inhabit
"Mice utopia" seems cool at first but then you realize the space, food and means of enrichment did not scale at all with the explosive growth.
In the wild, mice would have already migrated and those different social groups would be new colonies.
Considering it started with 8 mice, I imagine inbreeding factors increased too.
New Hunger games movie is wild.
Well now, we HAVE to make a TV show like this.
Maybe with RedWall characters?
i mean this is whats happening right now, people are bored and are living well enough that they have started finding things to complain about that they didnt used to have the ability to worry about.
"Finally someone gets it!"
-Thanos
Bro just called everyone on earth a rodent💀
Which we obviously aren't, because.. uh.. because.. hmm.
Ah, the Mouse Utopia Experiment.
A lesson for us all. 😜
what lesion, that animals go crazy if enclosed with other animals 24/7 and nothing to do ? no shit
Yeah, that you can have as much food and space as you need, but without enrichment, bordom kills.
Wow…. That sounds like what’s happening right now with humans…..
Thanos be seeming hella smart rn
It's the opposite of Thanos