This was really interesting, especially how puns are translated. Reminds me of Ace Attorney, translations, which also had to deal with a lot of wordplay. In both cases I think the translators did a great job conveying the clever silliness of the original across languages.
Oh my god, that was amazing. I don't watch a lot of anime, but seeing how stuff gets translated is ENDLESSLY fascinating, especially how certain character nuances are kept or changed.
That bit about subtitle length explains so many things. I remember in AoT, there was a line where I could clearly hear the word ネズミ being said, yet the word "rat" was nowhere to be seen in the English subtitles. It was already a pretty long line of dialogue, so the rat part was immaterial.
This makes me hope this ends up being the first of a series because I would love to see how other shows become translated in E -> J just as much as I do from J -> E
Really neat to see you go about this conversation from the opposite side. There's a lot in here I hadn't considered before, and I appreciate the time taken to breaking everything down. Really great video, love the conclusion :)
amazing!! i love BoJack, and i’m really happy that Japanese people can enjoy it too. sometimes i feel kinda bad that we get to see so many awesome anime, and maybe Japanese folks don’t have the same kind of access to English language cartoons…. that’s just an assumption, though. i wonder if Tuca and Bertie was also made available with Japanese subs/dubs? that show deserves to be seen by everyone!
This is something I've been thinking of for a while, but since you're a professional you actually have the words to describe exactly why it is that way, which makes it really interesting. Subscribed!
Since taking Japanese, I understand now when you're speaking a language you gotta go for the best equivalent. Wheras I thought before everything should be translated one-to-one. Wish I could tell younger me about that so I have less cringy memories when I was "some anime fans". I couldn't imagine trying to translate a lot of the tongue twisters Bojack. And the super long ridiculous names like Hollywoo Celebrities Do They Know Things What Do They Know Let's Find Out (I'm pretty sure I'm missing parts of the title). This is a great video on why things being translated have to make some changes. I've also been interested in seeing how Bojack was received by Japanese audiences
I was randomly recommended this video and really enjoyed it! I was involved in an amateur fan-translation project for a Chinese TV show and really had to think about some of the formal/functional tradeoffs mentioned here, as well as making subs short enough to read. (I've always been a sub person myself but I guess there's a good case for dubs here in that respect...) One thing I wanted to mention though is that I think localization can go too far sometimes. I think the Rattatta one was pretty subtle and well done - as mentioned in the video this makes sense because Americans probably wouldn't understand the cultural significance of Rattatta and Japanese people probably wouldn't understand fiddle-dee-dee. But I can think of a couple examples I've encountered though where attempting to make things culturally relevant to audiences falls flat for me. For instance, in Phoenix Wright (a Japanese video game), one of the main characters, Maya, casually mentions a few times that she loves ramen. But "let's get ramen" is somehow translated as "let's get burgers" in the American localization, probably to evoke a feeling of friends chilling together at a casual/fast food joint. And it just glaringly more funny/weird when the game was adapted into an anime, when it actually shows them getting ramen, and there were subtitles about them getting burgers. At that point it was already a fandom meme so I think they did that on purpose, but as an American I was like...just let her get ramen, ffs...kinda like how onigiri was translated as "donuts" in the pokemon anime or something. I think this localization just generates more confusion than anything. Another example is of a Chinese choir performance I saw, when the theme of the song was about being overworked, and one of the lines in the song mentions "I wish I could go to Yunnan". This was translated as "I wish I could go to Yosemite" in the American English subtitles, which the translator presumably did because Americans might not know what Yunnan signifies (nature, relaxation, etc.) But I was like it's literally not that hard for Americans to just look up "Yunnan". This last point I think sort of ties into the last point of this video, which is that Western audiences' critiques of functionalist translations in Asian media can often have a weird orientalist vibe to them. (Also 100% agree that including -chan/-san is tacky af.) But I also sort of have complicated feelings about the statement that Americans should engage with Asian media not as foreign media, but just as media. I think in the choir example, one could argue that "Yosemite" instead of "Yunnan" helps Americans connect with the message of the song more easily, but I think there is also something fundamentally lost in that translation--maybe it's that with "Yunnan" kept in, it would encourage American audiences to do their own work and research into what a culturally significant place it is for Chinese folks, whereas "Yosemite" just feels lazy to me somehow. Like this is a Chinese song: maybe on one level Americans should relate to it just as people, but on another level this is a specifically Chinese critique of Chinese work culture, and Americans /can't/ 100% relate to it. Ok I think this ended up being more about localization than translation specifically. But man was this such an interesting video it made me write a whole essay on it lol.
Yeah, there's definitely a balance and never a universal answer for everything in translation. I'd translate an anime adaptation of the Tale of Genji much differently than I would translate a slice of life anime set in modern Japan, for example. Also, current localizations of Japanese media would almost never change ramen to burgers or onigiri to jelly donuts. Most of the examples of that kind of localization that are pointed out to me are from older properties. The industry has definitely improved a lot in the past couple decades.
The Yunnan/Yosemite example is really interesting. The originals requires pausing and looking it up, or archiving it for later, which can quickly spiral out of control if many terms and references are left intact and unexplained BUT I do agree with you, in that using Yosemite is lazy. It also breaks immersion as it clashes with the cultural landscape of the original work. In this particular case, I wonder if translating it as "I want to go to the wilderness", "I want to go to the rural Yunnan" or something of this nature would make a good substitute.
Great video! I don't speak Japanese but I am a native Spanish speaker and the things you are saying apply very well to Spanish dubs, and I am very glad someone agrees dubs are better than subs if you don't know the language. Translation is truly an art and the people that think AI is anywhere near replacing it just don't have a clue
Also props to the Japanese translator for translating the tongue twister, I have tried translating BoJack's tongue twisters into Spanish and failed miserably.
Archer did a great 3 parter on idioms. To me, it awoke the ideal that we gotta respect localizers. Dubs only get better if we support them, and we NEED to support dubs. Else, we miss out.
I literally started watching the Japanese dub of Bojack a few days ago. So it's surreal that I just got this video in my notifications. Normally when I watch Japanese media, I'll put Japanese subtitles on since my listening skill isn't that great yet, but I'll notice immediately when it comes to media not originally made in Japanese there's a mismatch in what is being said and what is subtitled. Dubs might better than subs But I'm still subbing to this channel
I figured Bojack would be popular in Japan. Not just because it's well-written but it has a lot of similarities to the best anime. And it's depressing as shit. They love that.
People who prefer formal equivalence: "Yurusanai" means literally "(I) will not forgive (you)!" - This has no real punch in English and sounds silly. In fact I have a major pet peeve about dubs that speak it literally, pretending it doesn't sound ridiculous to an English speaker. In Japanese, it's essentially like a swear word, literally vowing to hunt someone down and make sure they are punished for whatever they did wrong. There is no way to do formal equivalence only and have it emotionally punch the audience in the gut the way it does for the original Japanese listeners. Many Japanese phrases also have very little to no English translation. There are stock phrases you're supposed to say throughout the day when doing certain things like leaving the house, entering the house, eating, etc., to your family/coworkers/classmates that, if translated 100% literally, just sound bonkers. "WILL EAT!" "WILL EAT!" lol
Then what kind of localization would you propose for "yurusanai"? The first thing that comes to mind from your description is something like "I'll f*ing end you!" (I just noticed that this comment is from 1 year ago, sigh. Still curious though.)
Absolutely loved this video! It reminded me of how, for years I've wanted to watch The Office with Japanese subs or dubs to see how that very very specific American wordplay-heavy humor was translated.
First-time viewer here! I love the breakdown of formal vs functional equivalence breakdown; it's exactly the difference between semantics and pragmatics in linguistics, and it's impossible to truly understand a language if you don't understand the cultural context surrounding individual word choices. EDIT: Also, I love your bit on censorship! The profit over politics part is right on the money!
Wow! As someone who enjoys animation and anime, works as a board artist in animation, and studied Japanese in school, this was a really fascinating intersection of my interests. I learned a lot of things about translation I hadn’t really considered before and while I already knew a translator’s job is tough, I have an even greater respect for the types of challenges they have to work through. Great video!
This is crazy interesting and informative. Translating is already a likely career choice for me, but the more I learn about it, the more I want to dive into it
This is actually a really nice video that I'm going to save whenever my circle's talking about translation vs localization again. It's a complicated topic, and I don't think there's a single correct answer to everything. I agree, broadly, with the point, though my more specific opinion of the matter is that _you have to think about your specific audience_ . Ultimately, I think all translations are a "product" and as such, it has an intended audience for its consumption. As such, one shouldn't translate an American cartoon show about a talking horse to a Japanese Netflix-watching audience the same way they would translate a cute moege for an English-speaking VN-buying otaku which should also be different from a Key visual novel that's been hyped up by the wider VN community be translated. Personally speaking, if the intended audience is used to suffixes, for example, just keep them. Honestly, I think it fits 'better' for non super serious works like isekai story to have that and, probabilitistically speaking, it's more likely that the audience will be annoyed at the exclusion of Japanese-ism they expect than for audience who _really_ minded about the inclusion of it. So as a product, it'd be better to just do what people most likely would want and be done with it. So I do see the merit of both approaches, but ultimately, it should be tailor made to be who the expected audience will be. It's 'liberties' either way, whether you want to be more literal or spiritual, if you ask me.
I love these recursive translation videos. I love searching out foreign dub clips of Western toons like The Simpsons and Spongebob, and having an expert break these down is a treat. Got to see if I can find any BH clips, now. Or break down and finally get a vpn.
wonderful video! I don't speak a lick of Japanese but you did such a wonderful job with your explanations, so I had no issues keeping up. Your point about how dubs also have things they excel at and add to a show was also refreshing. Great job
This video was not only amazing and made me think about how much thought goes into translation but now I have to really think if sub or dub is better which I wasn't looking forward to but oh well. My 31 minutes well spent
This was a wonderful video, super informative (of course) but in a way regular people off the street can understand, and really witty on top of that. Bravo, Sarah Moon!
This was really fascinating! I’d recently been watching some Star Trek in the Japanese, albeit without extra subs so I’m missing about 25% of the words, but I’ve still found a lot of really interesting aspects to it, especially with the jokes as you say here. A lot more liberties need to be taken with jokes, that’s for sure! To give just one very simple joke example (I have a running document of things I thought were interesting but I’ll keep it thin here, since it’s just about translation in general rather than Bojack) they change the fictional-alien “moogie” in the English original to the English “mommy” in the Japanese dub, which effectively communicated the immaturity and being a foreign word. It lost a little in that they picked a real, already-known example rather than a fictional one, but otherwise it ticks all the boxes! Though curiously I’ve actually been more emotionally affected by some sad episodes in the dub than the original! I think that’s because the VA is closer to the mic, so I can hear their actual crying - rather than just how their crying is affecting their voice like with the original which used a distant mic. Something else I think is neat is noticing when they attempt to actually translate technobabble, and when they just transcribe it. Eg they leave “chroniton” alone instead of deconstructing it into “time particle”. Most of the alien species names are just transcribed too, though not quite all of them. Of course, this can be just as much about timing and lip flaps as it is about the semantics! So I’m curious if that’s any different in Japanese subs, or if they inherit the choices the dub team made. But what I found most interesting was how they handled “humanoid”. Lots of anime I’ve seen just transcribes the English word into Japanese, but in Star Trek they actually use the word human for all the aliens. And then instead of saying species, they say nationality. So Vulcans are Vulcan-jin, and usually for “humans” in the original text they say Earthling in the dub. So that integrates the humanist, “we’re more alike than different” core message of the shows quite well! All in all, it’s made me want to try out the Japanese dub of many more shows I’m familiar with in English. It’s a neat way to pick-up on some vocabulary I didn’t know before (for instance doing this taught me 連邦), and also just helps add some variety to my favourite shows.
I've been watching a lot of my favourite American shows/games in Japanese dubs with Japanese subs for immersion lately. It has really made me much much prefer Functional Equivalence and I find Formal equivalence annoying to read through/listen to now. The best dubs were the ones that leaned more in a Functional Equivalent direction. I've just reached season 6 of Bojack in Japanese and I really enjoy the dub so far. I particularly appreciated that all the songs were also dubbed, not all dubs get that treatment. It was enlightening to hear your explanation on why Japanese subs are so different from the dubbed voice. It really bothered me initially because I like accurate subs even when I watch content in English because my hearing isn't great so I miss words. But the function of the short sub makes sense to me, I'm getting used to it as I keep watching JP dubs with JP subs. All around such a good video exploring a niche I didn't think anyone else would care about as much as I do (namely the Japanese Bojack dub and a native English speakers perspective and relationship to dubs via experiencing dubbed Japanese content lol)
I've rewatched Bojack so many times I started watching it in japanese just to spice things up, love the video!! These differences are so fascinating! :o
I don’t speak a word of Japanese and I loved this video. It gave me insight into the sub and dub translation process that I found interesting to learn.
Translation is one of those topics I've always been super curious about (which I suppose I could say about like 20 different things) and you're videos are so detailed and easy-to-understand I think I'm going to watch all of them
So glad this video randomly popped up in my recommended! Something so enlightening about hearing someone break down the nuances and cultural references in a language that I don’t speak. What’s more it’s even for a TV show I love, really good job - would love to see any more of your takes on translated media.
I usually watch dubbed audio but keep formal subtitles on, because i read pretty fast and i like comparing what was localized, without losing the emotional nuance that comes from hearing someone speak a language i dont know
Great video. I used to be one of those translation purists, so I definitely appreciate you teaching me and others that sometimes translations don't NEED to be 1:1 for them to hit the mark.
I loved this video! It was refreshing to examine subs and dubs in reverse going from English to Japanese Gave me a whole new perspective 👀 And it made me want to learn Japanese to appreciate how well those lines landed. Kudos to you for creating an informative, entertaining, and excellently edited video 👏 👏 👏
Never seen a video before that fit so many of my interests. And I really enjoy how thoroughly all the points were made. I understood just fine even though I don't speak a lick of Japanese. Love the humor too. Guess I have 8 years of Sarah Moon content to catch up on now.
"Literal translations should be the only translations" says the person who doesn't know some languages don't have words for concepts others do and also that different languages have different amounts of meaning that can be said in one sylabal or that tonal languages even exist or even the fact puns often literally cannot be translated literally or that laws about what can or cannot be said or aired on tv vary between counties or that regional accents that might have implications native speakers can pick up on others can't (For example, when Freya from FF9 speaks it is in a manner that although has historical connections to the Edo-period is also close to the modern day Hiroshima dialect and no i will not spoil how that is very relevant to her particularly in terms of story events)
I only watch anime sporadically, and I don't speak a word of japanese. Regardless, I learnt a lot from this video, thank you! I wonder how did the Japanese translations managed plot relevant and language intensive parts. Things like the twist in Free Churro or the poem about the view from halfway down. I know the spanish dub had to "give up" with the first one, which I find understandable but also a real bummer.
Thank you for these Videos, they really are a good way to get an insight and learn some Japanese as well. Any chance you could include more direct listening instances like in your Avatar video?
I love this kind of thing. I'm always fascinated by how translators overcome difficult translations, so I'm really glad I found this channel. You have a new subscriber in me. That said, hearing your explanation and knowing very little about Japanese myself, I can't agree that the "gay-love" thing was a good translation. I feel it substantially changes the intention of the line. In the Japanese, the gay joke is a non-sequitur that doesn't reflect Bojack's opinion of Todd at all. You read this as a joke to deflect from a difficult conversation. Yes, we know Bojack does that, but I don't think he was in this case. Bojack usually telegraphs when he's going into "stand up" mode. In the English, I read it as him being his acerbic self and indirectly expressing the opinion that Todd is a childishly optimistic person. We know that this is something that annoys Bojack about both Todd and Mr. Peanutbutter, and something that he envies. It's a direct response to Diane's statement. "Todd may respect me, but Todd's respect means nothing because he's an immature idiot." There's no wordplay in, "Todd thinks the world of Pop Tarts." I don't see why it couldn't be translated as, "Todd respect-loves ."
I don’t really know any Japanese except for maybe a few words or phases. That being said, anybody who’s watched subbed anime shouldn’t have a hard time understanding any of this. Definetly makes want to Lear Japanese if not just to more fully understand One Piece for all its pun mastery
I recently watched One Punch Man dubbed in Portuguese (so I could have it on my side screen as I worked and didn't have to worry about reading subs) and it was a great experience. The amount of fun Brazilian idioms they use to make Saitama sound informal and blasé made the character 200% better for me. Needless to say, I don't intend to ever watch OPM subbed ever again lol I also always wondered how shows like BoJack Horseman are received in Japan. Anime is so popular in the west, so is BoJack popular in Japan? Did shows like The Simpsons or Game of Thrones have the same cultural impact as they had in the west?
What you said about BoJack’s “fake-masculine” speech was super interesting! I’m curious though, does he at all change this pattern of speech in season 6 after he (spoilers) Goes to rehab and tries to be a better person? And loses other markers of artifice like his dyed hair? I’d be so interested in more Japanese BoJack content btw, it’s fascinating!
My favourite word play from the Spanish dub of BJH is when "Slap my salami, the guy's a commie" becomes "Tengo una pista, este tipo es comunista" = "I have a clue, this guy's communist"
Regarding the sentiment at the end of your video, this is why I refer to Japanese comics and pop music from Korea as “comics” and “pop,” not “manga” and “K-pop.” Because it’s the same exact thing as over here. Yet I got flak the first time I expressed it.
@2:03 Actually you don't necessarily need a VPN to watch BoJack in Japanese. Going into your settings and switching the entire language interface on Netflix over to Japanese works good enough. You'll get a bunch of different language options for most shows that way. Granted it doesn't work for EVERY show they have on there but at the very least you wouldn't have to pay for a VPN if you don't want to. :)
The part about ‘gay ai’ was a miss, I think. The point was not that BoJack was avoiding his feelings so much as that he was downplaying Todd’s attachment to him, like saying Todd might act all stoked but that’s just what he’s like about all kinds of things, including mundane ones. I suppose I’d translate the exchange as something like, 「あなたを愛敬てる」 「奴が愛敬ってパイだ」 …or something like that, also making a callback to the ‘pies’ he had eaten before.
A valid point, but if you were to word that in Japanese in a way that makes sense, it would probably be way too many characters. 奴が愛敬ってパイだ doesn't make sense.
@@PrettyTranslatorSarahMoon I figured I was using too many grammatical shortcuts, I tried typing out ‘奴が敬愛するのはパイだ’, but that’s way too many characters… Maybe in the dub?
Have you ever heard of the first Swedish translation of Lord of the Rings? Asking because it is a great tale of a translator from an era of extremely liberal translations, Tolkien being unnecessarily petty, fandom drama in Sweden, maybe a burglary in Tolkiens home, Tolkiens son getting dragged into this, attempts at legal action against a fanclub and satanic panic.
Can I just say the Fiddle Dee Dee is very much an English speaking thing and I have not encountered it in Spanish or French, maybe an equivalent, but not that
I’m a big fan of a French cartoon called “Wakfu”, I also studied some French and consider myself good with how languages work. It’s a shared opinion by the fans of the show that the English dub is absolute garbage, for a few different reasons. But when I was rewatching it again with subtitles on Netflix (in other words, the subs I was reading were the words spoken in the English dub) I realized how absurdly literal the script was. Almost every word was a direct translation and it absolutely RUINED the flow of the dialogue. As a writer myself I was actually really upset that the staff stayed so literal and didn’t take more creative liberties to make the story flow better. Being such a big language nerd I really enjoy this type of videos!
Is Mister Peanutbutter's name changed to something like Peanutbutter San in Japanese? Since his first name is Mister? Or do they keep it as Mister? Anyway, if there's another 'English Show in Japanese' video like this, I vote King of the Hill, if it's even feasible to get footage of it in the Jpn dub
Hi! I do have sort of a question about Bojack Japanese translation. What about pop culture references? You know, for example, the ones Mr. Peanutbutter constantly pulls? But also all the celebrities references too? Especcially more obscure ones that might not been known in other countries? I'm curious about how those would work.
I'm not familiar with many actor names, so most of the time the celebrity names Mr. Peanutbutter threw out just flew over my head. On my second watch I would pause the screen and look up the names every time they came up, but honestly I still found the humor in his references even when I didn't 100% know them. My assumption is that the celebrity names are mostly kept the same as it is not entirely necessary to fully know them to still enjoy it. Just my guess though
Not sure about the other languages, but the Japanese public is pretty well-versed in US American celebrities, so the references I did see were kept in. For other pop culture stuff, yeah, if it's not very well-known to mainstream Japanese audiences, they'll generally change the reference to something that's more relatable.
Rattatta!
You clappa, you get slappa.
Wait is that where the Pokémon got its name
@@NeelLLumi-AnCatDubh I was wondering that too!
It would be fun to hear a Japanese speaker say "bro, the sub is better" to another when talking about bojack.
I THINK I remember hearing that that kind of exchange happened in early Japanese forums a lot over The Simpsons when it started airing in Japan.
And I heard the same about Avatar: The Last Airbender.
I've never seen it about Bojack (but it's just never come up.) but I have heard it about other shows here and there
I like the "gay love" line because not only is Bojack disrupting the conversation, but he's making it about himself.
This was really interesting, especially how puns are translated. Reminds me of Ace Attorney, translations, which also had to deal with a lot of wordplay. In both cases I think the translators did a great job conveying the clever silliness of the original across languages.
Along with everything else, this just made me really appreciate Bojack's writing.
Oh my god, that was amazing. I don't watch a lot of anime, but seeing how stuff gets translated is ENDLESSLY fascinating, especially how certain character nuances are kept or changed.
That bit about subtitle length explains so many things. I remember in AoT, there was a line where I could clearly hear the word ネズミ being said, yet the word "rat" was nowhere to be seen in the English subtitles. It was already a pretty long line of dialogue, so the rat part was immaterial.
This makes me hope this ends up being the first of a series because I would love to see how other shows become translated in E -> J just as much as I do from J -> E
I am definitely considering it--I've been wanting to check out Japanese Rick and Morty.
All Netflix originals are translated into Japanese, so there is probably plenty more to come. :)
Your content is so dope. I'd love to see you do this with other translated western animations.
Really neat to see you go about this conversation from the opposite side. There's a lot in here I hadn't considered before, and I appreciate the time taken to breaking everything down. Really great video, love the conclusion :)
amazing!! i love BoJack, and i’m really happy that Japanese people can enjoy it too. sometimes i feel kinda bad that we get to see so many awesome anime, and maybe Japanese folks don’t have the same kind of access to English language cartoons…. that’s just an assumption, though. i wonder if Tuca and Bertie was also made available with Japanese subs/dubs? that show deserves to be seen by everyone!
Oh yeah, lots of our shows are subbed/dubbed in Japanese. Our movies as well.
This is something I've been thinking of for a while, but since you're a professional you actually have the words to describe exactly why it is that way, which makes it really interesting. Subscribed!
Since taking Japanese, I understand now when you're speaking a language you gotta go for the best equivalent. Wheras I thought before everything should be translated one-to-one. Wish I could tell younger me about that so I have less cringy memories when I was "some anime fans".
I couldn't imagine trying to translate a lot of the tongue twisters Bojack. And the super long ridiculous names like Hollywoo Celebrities Do They Know Things What Do They Know Let's Find Out (I'm pretty sure I'm missing parts of the title).
This is a great video on why things being translated have to make some changes.
I've also been interested in seeing how Bojack was received by Japanese audiences
I was randomly recommended this video and really enjoyed it! I was involved in an amateur fan-translation project for a Chinese TV show and really had to think about some of the formal/functional tradeoffs mentioned here, as well as making subs short enough to read. (I've always been a sub person myself but I guess there's a good case for dubs here in that respect...)
One thing I wanted to mention though is that I think localization can go too far sometimes. I think the Rattatta one was pretty subtle and well done - as mentioned in the video this makes sense because Americans probably wouldn't understand the cultural significance of Rattatta and Japanese people probably wouldn't understand fiddle-dee-dee. But I can think of a couple examples I've encountered though where attempting to make things culturally relevant to audiences falls flat for me.
For instance, in Phoenix Wright (a Japanese video game), one of the main characters, Maya, casually mentions a few times that she loves ramen. But "let's get ramen" is somehow translated as "let's get burgers" in the American localization, probably to evoke a feeling of friends chilling together at a casual/fast food joint. And it just glaringly more funny/weird when the game was adapted into an anime, when it actually shows them getting ramen, and there were subtitles about them getting burgers. At that point it was already a fandom meme so I think they did that on purpose, but as an American I was like...just let her get ramen, ffs...kinda like how onigiri was translated as "donuts" in the pokemon anime or something. I think this localization just generates more confusion than anything.
Another example is of a Chinese choir performance I saw, when the theme of the song was about being overworked, and one of the lines in the song mentions "I wish I could go to Yunnan". This was translated as "I wish I could go to Yosemite" in the American English subtitles, which the translator presumably did because Americans might not know what Yunnan signifies (nature, relaxation, etc.) But I was like it's literally not that hard for Americans to just look up "Yunnan".
This last point I think sort of ties into the last point of this video, which is that Western audiences' critiques of functionalist translations in Asian media can often have a weird orientalist vibe to them. (Also 100% agree that including -chan/-san is tacky af.) But I also sort of have complicated feelings about the statement that Americans should engage with Asian media not as foreign media, but just as media. I think in the choir example, one could argue that "Yosemite" instead of "Yunnan" helps Americans connect with the message of the song more easily, but I think there is also something fundamentally lost in that translation--maybe it's that with "Yunnan" kept in, it would encourage American audiences to do their own work and research into what a culturally significant place it is for Chinese folks, whereas "Yosemite" just feels lazy to me somehow. Like this is a Chinese song: maybe on one level Americans should relate to it just as people, but on another level this is a specifically Chinese critique of Chinese work culture, and Americans /can't/ 100% relate to it.
Ok I think this ended up being more about localization than translation specifically. But man was this such an interesting video it made me write a whole essay on it lol.
Yeah, there's definitely a balance and never a universal answer for everything in translation. I'd translate an anime adaptation of the Tale of Genji much differently than I would translate a slice of life anime set in modern Japan, for example. Also, current localizations of Japanese media would almost never change ramen to burgers or onigiri to jelly donuts. Most of the examples of that kind of localization that are pointed out to me are from older properties. The industry has definitely improved a lot in the past couple decades.
The Yunnan/Yosemite example is really interesting. The originals requires pausing and looking it up, or archiving it for later, which can quickly spiral out of control if many terms and references are left intact and unexplained BUT I do agree with you, in that using Yosemite is lazy. It also breaks immersion as it clashes with the cultural landscape of the original work.
In this particular case, I wonder if translating it as "I want to go to the wilderness", "I want to go to the rural Yunnan" or something of this nature would make a good substitute.
Great video! I don't speak Japanese but I am a native Spanish speaker and the things you are saying apply very well to Spanish dubs, and I am very glad someone agrees dubs are better than subs if you don't know the language. Translation is truly an art and the people that think AI is anywhere near replacing it just don't have a clue
Also props to the Japanese translator for translating the tongue twister, I have tried translating BoJack's tongue twisters into Spanish and failed miserably.
I wholeheartedly agree with you!
Archer did a great 3 parter on idioms. To me, it awoke the ideal that we gotta respect localizers. Dubs only get better if we support them, and we NEED to support dubs. Else, we miss out.
All of your deep analysis videos are just *so good*. Thank you; I feel like I understand this stuff a lot better now.
I literally started watching the Japanese dub of Bojack a few days ago.
So it's surreal that I just got this video in my notifications.
Normally when I watch Japanese media, I'll put Japanese subtitles on since my listening skill isn't that great yet, but I'll notice immediately when it comes to media not originally made in Japanese there's a mismatch in what is being said and what is subtitled.
Dubs might better than subs
But I'm still subbing to this channel
I figured Bojack would be popular in Japan. Not just because it's well-written but it has a lot of similarities to the best anime. And it's depressing as shit. They love that.
People who prefer formal equivalence:
"Yurusanai" means literally "(I) will not forgive (you)!" - This has no real punch in English and sounds silly.
In fact I have a major pet peeve about dubs that speak it literally, pretending it doesn't sound ridiculous to an English speaker.
In Japanese, it's essentially like a swear word, literally vowing to hunt someone down and make sure they are punished for whatever they did wrong.
There is no way to do formal equivalence only and have it emotionally punch the audience in the gut the way it does for the original Japanese listeners.
Many Japanese phrases also have very little to no English translation. There are stock phrases you're supposed to say throughout the day when doing certain things like leaving the house, entering the house, eating, etc., to your family/coworkers/classmates that, if translated 100% literally, just sound bonkers.
"WILL EAT!"
"WILL EAT!" lol
Yurusanai* I agree with everything you said though
@@ballistic63 fixed thanks
Then what kind of localization would you propose for "yurusanai"? The first thing that comes to mind from your description is something like "I'll f*ing end you!"
(I just noticed that this comment is from 1 year ago, sigh. Still curious though.)
Absolutely loved this video! It reminded me of how, for years I've wanted to watch The Office with Japanese subs or dubs to see how that very very specific American wordplay-heavy humor was translated.
First-time viewer here! I love the breakdown of formal vs functional equivalence breakdown; it's exactly the difference between semantics and pragmatics in linguistics, and it's impossible to truly understand a language if you don't understand the cultural context surrounding individual word choices.
EDIT: Also, I love your bit on censorship! The profit over politics part is right on the money!
Been a fan of the sub/dub debate for yeeeeears, this is the best use of examples to break it down that I've seen. Subscribed
dubscribed.
Wow! As someone who enjoys animation and anime, works as a board artist in animation, and studied Japanese in school, this was a really fascinating intersection of my interests. I learned a lot of things about translation I hadn’t really considered before and while I already knew a translator’s job is tough, I have an even greater respect for the types of challenges they have to work through. Great video!
This is crazy interesting and informative. Translating is already a likely career choice for me, but the more I learn about it, the more I want to dive into it
This is actually a really nice video that I'm going to save whenever my circle's talking about translation vs localization again. It's a complicated topic, and I don't think there's a single correct answer to everything.
I agree, broadly, with the point, though my more specific opinion of the matter is that _you have to think about your specific audience_ . Ultimately, I think all translations are a "product" and as such, it has an intended audience for its consumption. As such, one shouldn't translate an American cartoon show about a talking horse to a Japanese Netflix-watching audience the same way they would translate a cute moege for an English-speaking VN-buying otaku which should also be different from a Key visual novel that's been hyped up by the wider VN community be translated.
Personally speaking, if the intended audience is used to suffixes, for example, just keep them. Honestly, I think it fits 'better' for non super serious works like isekai story to have that and, probabilitistically speaking, it's more likely that the audience will be annoyed at the exclusion of Japanese-ism they expect than for audience who _really_ minded about the inclusion of it. So as a product, it'd be better to just do what people most likely would want and be done with it.
So I do see the merit of both approaches, but ultimately, it should be tailor made to be who the expected audience will be. It's 'liberties' either way, whether you want to be more literal or spiritual, if you ask me.
I love these recursive translation videos. I love searching out foreign dub clips of Western toons like The Simpsons and Spongebob, and having an expert break these down is a treat. Got to see if I can find any BH clips, now. Or break down and finally get a vpn.
There are some JP dub clips on YT.
@@PrettyTranslatorSarahMoon Found them! Ah, but I can only find ten. I need more!
wonderful video! I don't speak a lick of Japanese but you did such a wonderful job with your explanations, so I had no issues keeping up. Your point about how dubs also have things they excel at and add to a show was also refreshing. Great job
Amazing video! Very informative. Would live to see more
This video was not only amazing and made me think about how much thought goes into translation but now I have to really think if sub or dub is better which I wasn't looking forward to but oh well. My 31 minutes well spent
I still don't remember how I got here but it's great content and more people should like and subscribe.
Oh wow I gotta say I didn't realize Japanese Bojack sounds just like a Japanese Will Arnett.
This was a wonderful video, super informative (of course) but in a way regular people off the street can understand, and really witty on top of that. Bravo, Sarah Moon!
This was really fascinating! I’d recently been watching some Star Trek in the Japanese, albeit without extra subs so I’m missing about 25% of the words, but I’ve still found a lot of really interesting aspects to it, especially with the jokes as you say here. A lot more liberties need to be taken with jokes, that’s for sure!
To give just one very simple joke example (I have a running document of things I thought were interesting but I’ll keep it thin here, since it’s just about translation in general rather than Bojack) they change the fictional-alien “moogie” in the English original to the English “mommy” in the Japanese dub, which effectively communicated the immaturity and being a foreign word. It lost a little in that they picked a real, already-known example rather than a fictional one, but otherwise it ticks all the boxes!
Though curiously I’ve actually been more emotionally affected by some sad episodes in the dub than the original! I think that’s because the VA is closer to the mic, so I can hear their actual crying - rather than just how their crying is affecting their voice like with the original which used a distant mic.
Something else I think is neat is noticing when they attempt to actually translate technobabble, and when they just transcribe it. Eg they leave “chroniton” alone instead of deconstructing it into “time particle”. Most of the alien species names are just transcribed too, though not quite all of them. Of course, this can be just as much about timing and lip flaps as it is about the semantics! So I’m curious if that’s any different in Japanese subs, or if they inherit the choices the dub team made.
But what I found most interesting was how they handled “humanoid”. Lots of anime I’ve seen just transcribes the English word into Japanese, but in Star Trek they actually use the word human for all the aliens. And then instead of saying species, they say nationality. So Vulcans are Vulcan-jin, and usually for “humans” in the original text they say Earthling in the dub. So that integrates the humanist, “we’re more alike than different” core message of the shows quite well!
All in all, it’s made me want to try out the Japanese dub of many more shows I’m familiar with in English. It’s a neat way to pick-up on some vocabulary I didn’t know before (for instance doing this taught me 連邦), and also just helps add some variety to my favourite shows.
I find language nuances really fascinating
Really awesome as both a fan of BoJack and someone who’s interested in the translation and localization process.
That was hella informative and enjoyable.
I've been watching a lot of my favourite American shows/games in Japanese dubs with Japanese subs for immersion lately. It has really made me much much prefer Functional Equivalence and I find Formal equivalence annoying to read through/listen to now. The best dubs were the ones that leaned more in a Functional Equivalent direction.
I've just reached season 6 of Bojack in Japanese and I really enjoy the dub so far. I particularly appreciated that all the songs were also dubbed, not all dubs get that treatment.
It was enlightening to hear your explanation on why Japanese subs are so different from the dubbed voice. It really bothered me initially because I like accurate subs even when I watch content in English because my hearing isn't great so I miss words. But the function of the short sub makes sense to me, I'm getting used to it as I keep watching JP dubs with JP subs.
All around such a good video exploring a niche I didn't think anyone else would care about as much as I do (namely the Japanese Bojack dub and a native English speakers perspective and relationship to dubs via experiencing dubbed Japanese content lol)
Best video so far. But I'm sure your big summer video will top it....
NO PRESSURE, THO.
I've rewatched Bojack so many times I started watching it in japanese just to spice things up, love the video!! These differences are so fascinating! :o
how are you this underrated this was sucha good experience
TH-cam's algorithm rarely boosts the best users. Sarah's Japanese learning channel is fantastic too.
I really loved being educated about sub/dub translation by Princess Carolyn herself
Very entertaining, would recommended
This is actually good knowledge for anyone who works in localization.
I don’t speak a word of Japanese and I loved this video. It gave me insight into the sub and dub translation process that I found interesting to learn.
I've been wondering for a while now what bob's burgers dub is like in Japanese
Translation is one of those topics I've always been super curious about (which I suppose I could say about like 20 different things) and you're videos are so detailed and easy-to-understand I think I'm going to watch all of them
So glad this video randomly popped up in my recommended! Something so enlightening about hearing someone break down the nuances and cultural references in a language that I don’t speak. What’s more it’s even for a TV show I love, really good job - would love to see any more of your takes on translated media.
your content is soooo great and seriously underappreciated
It must've been so convenient that 馬鹿 has the kanji for horse. :)
Another well-done video! They're worth the wait!
I can't believe they would censor the cultural touchstone that is the toaster strudel 😤😤 (and pop tarts!)
this was really interesting! i'm glad my youtube algorithm brought me here :)
I usually watch dubbed audio but keep formal subtitles on, because i read pretty fast and i like comparing what was localized, without losing the emotional nuance that comes from hearing someone speak a language i dont know
Thanks! This was a great, well researched video!
oooweeee, thanks!
Great explanation!
Loved the deep explanation of the adaptations. Very interesting. They put so much effort into the translation!
Great video. I used to be one of those translation purists, so I definitely appreciate you teaching me and others that sometimes translations don't NEED to be 1:1 for them to hit the mark.
Great video, but also, Japanese Bojack's VA is really good
Great video! Also your voice sounds similar to Diane’s, so it was kind of appropriate 😊
i kinda wonder what japanese people think of the series
I loved this video!
It was refreshing to examine subs and dubs in reverse going from English to Japanese
Gave me a whole new perspective 👀 And it made me want to learn Japanese to appreciate how well those lines landed.
Kudos to you for creating an informative, entertaining, and excellently edited video 👏 👏 👏
This was a really awesome video~ :D thanks for taking the time to make it!
Never seen a video before that fit so many of my interests. And I really enjoy how thoroughly all the points were made. I understood just fine even though I don't speak a lick of Japanese. Love the humor too. Guess I have 8 years of Sarah Moon content to catch up on now.
oh boy, you're in for a lovely cringe-fest! 😀
@@PrettyTranslatorSarahMoon Count me in, I'm already on video 23.
"Literal translations should be the only translations" says the person who doesn't know some languages don't have words for concepts others do and also that different languages have different amounts of meaning that can be said in one sylabal or that tonal languages even exist or even the fact puns often literally cannot be translated literally or that laws about what can or cannot be said or aired on tv vary between counties or that regional accents that might have implications native speakers can pick up on others can't (For example, when Freya from FF9 speaks it is in a manner that although has historical connections to the Edo-period is also close to the modern day Hiroshima dialect and no i will not spoil how that is very relevant to her particularly in terms of story events)
Fantastic video and I hope you do more of these in future.
I wonder if the Japanese have this sub/dub debates as well with western shows?
👀👀👀👀👀 I did not know that this was a video I needed
Really, really good stuff here 👏
Good luck with your work!~
As soon as I saw the commercials, I got the joke and had a laugh, both the "rattatta" and "nanto!" references. I get the funni.
Japanese Bojack just sounds like the boss on Aggretsuko lol
This video convinced to subscribe right away.
Congrats on this video! I loved it!
I don’t know any Japanese, but I love bojack horseman, and this was really interesting! Thank you for making this!
I only watch anime sporadically, and I don't speak a word of japanese. Regardless, I learnt a lot from this video, thank you!
I wonder how did the Japanese translations managed plot relevant and language intensive parts. Things like the twist in Free Churro or the poem about the view from halfway down. I know the spanish dub had to "give up" with the first one, which I find understandable but also a real bummer.
Really loved this video and seeing how it all works in reverse!
This video was so informative and SO well done. Thank You
this video made me appreciate translators much more, thank you for these great 30 minutes!
THANK YOU for finally giving me a word for a concept that I had trouble verbalizing
Thank you for these Videos, they really are a good way to get an insight and learn some Japanese as well.
Any chance you could include more direct listening instances like in your Avatar video?
I love this kind of thing. I'm always fascinated by how translators overcome difficult translations, so I'm really glad I found this channel. You have a new subscriber in me.
That said, hearing your explanation and knowing very little about Japanese myself, I can't agree that the "gay-love" thing was a good translation. I feel it substantially changes the intention of the line.
In the Japanese, the gay joke is a non-sequitur that doesn't reflect Bojack's opinion of Todd at all. You read this as a joke to deflect from a difficult conversation. Yes, we know Bojack does that, but I don't think he was in this case. Bojack usually telegraphs when he's going into "stand up" mode.
In the English, I read it as him being his acerbic self and indirectly expressing the opinion that Todd is a childishly optimistic person. We know that this is something that annoys Bojack about both Todd and Mr. Peanutbutter, and something that he envies. It's a direct response to Diane's statement. "Todd may respect me, but Todd's respect means nothing because he's an immature idiot." There's no wordplay in, "Todd thinks the world of Pop Tarts." I don't see why it couldn't be translated as, "Todd respect-loves ."
Yeah, it certainly doesn't tick *all* of the boxes. Compromise comes into play a lot.
Finally, OreImo is getting the recognition it deserves
welp time to rewatch bojack in jp dub.
awesome vid with great examples.
I don’t really know any Japanese except for maybe a few words or phases. That being said, anybody who’s watched subbed anime shouldn’t have a hard time understanding any of this. Definetly makes want to Lear Japanese if not just to more fully understand One Piece for all its pun mastery
I recently watched One Punch Man dubbed in Portuguese (so I could have it on my side screen as I worked and didn't have to worry about reading subs) and it was a great experience. The amount of fun Brazilian idioms they use to make Saitama sound informal and blasé made the character 200% better for me. Needless to say, I don't intend to ever watch OPM subbed ever again lol
I also always wondered how shows like BoJack Horseman are received in Japan. Anime is so popular in the west, so is BoJack popular in Japan? Did shows like The Simpsons or Game of Thrones have the same cultural impact as they had in the west?
What you said about BoJack’s “fake-masculine” speech was super interesting! I’m curious though, does he at all change this pattern of speech in season 6 after he (spoilers)
Goes to rehab and tries to be a better person? And loses other markers of artifice like his dyed hair?
I’d be so interested in more Japanese BoJack content btw, it’s fascinating!
My favourite word play from the Spanish dub of BJH is when
"Slap my salami, the guy's a commie"
becomes
"Tengo una pista, este tipo es comunista" = "I have a clue, this guy's communist"
Regarding the sentiment at the end of your video, this is why I refer to Japanese comics and pop music from Korea as “comics” and “pop,” not “manga” and “K-pop.” Because it’s the same exact thing as over here. Yet I got flak the first time I expressed it.
I loved this video! Great job.
@2:03
Actually you don't necessarily need a VPN to watch BoJack in Japanese. Going into your settings and switching the entire language interface on Netflix over to Japanese works good enough. You'll get a bunch of different language options for most shows that way. Granted it doesn't work for EVERY show they have on there but at the very least you wouldn't have to pay for a VPN if you don't want to. :)
The part about ‘gay ai’ was a miss, I think. The point was not that BoJack was avoiding his feelings so much as that he was downplaying Todd’s attachment to him, like saying Todd might act all stoked but that’s just what he’s like about all kinds of things, including mundane ones. I suppose I’d translate the exchange as something like,
「あなたを愛敬てる」
「奴が愛敬ってパイだ」
…or something like that, also making a callback to the ‘pies’ he had eaten before.
A valid point, but if you were to word that in Japanese in a way that makes sense, it would probably be way too many characters. 奴が愛敬ってパイだ doesn't make sense.
@@PrettyTranslatorSarahMoon I figured I was using too many grammatical shortcuts, I tried typing out ‘奴が敬愛するのはパイだ’, but that’s way too many characters… Maybe in the dub?
Yay!
A moment of silence for the person having to translate Kaiosama's puns in Dragon Ball Z.
馬すごい
Have you ever heard of the first Swedish translation of Lord of the Rings? Asking because it is a great tale of a translator from an era of extremely liberal translations, Tolkien being unnecessarily petty, fandom drama in Sweden, maybe a burglary in Tolkiens home, Tolkiens son getting dragged into this, attempts at legal action against a fanclub and satanic panic.
Can I just say the Fiddle Dee Dee is very much an English speaking thing and I have not encountered it in Spanish or French, maybe an equivalent, but not that
you asexual?!?! i'm subscribing right now !!! NEW BESTY!!!
Don't worry about them VPNs, you don't need to pay for them to change regions anyway.
I’m a big fan of a French cartoon called “Wakfu”, I also studied some French and consider myself good with how languages work. It’s a shared opinion by the fans of the show that the English dub is absolute garbage, for a few different reasons. But when I was rewatching it again with subtitles on Netflix (in other words, the subs I was reading were the words spoken in the English dub) I realized how absurdly literal the script was. Almost every word was a direct translation and it absolutely RUINED the flow of the dialogue. As a writer myself I was actually really upset that the staff stayed so literal and didn’t take more creative liberties to make the story flow better. Being such a big language nerd I really enjoy this type of videos!
えー！うれしい！日本語について話してくれてる❤😮独学なの？
Is Mister Peanutbutter's name changed to something like Peanutbutter San in Japanese? Since his first name is Mister? Or do they keep it as Mister?
Anyway, if there's another 'English Show in Japanese' video like this, I vote King of the Hill, if it's even feasible to get footage of it in the Jpn dub
It's "Mr. Peanut Butter" in the dub, and I think in the sub it's usually just "Peanut Butter" (probably for length.)
Hi! I do have sort of a question about Bojack Japanese translation. What about pop culture references? You know, for example, the ones Mr. Peanutbutter constantly pulls? But also all the celebrities references too? Especcially more obscure ones that might not been known in other countries? I'm curious about how those would work.
I'm not familiar with many actor names, so most of the time the celebrity names Mr. Peanutbutter threw out just flew over my head. On my second watch I would pause the screen and look up the names every time they came up, but honestly I still found the humor in his references even when I didn't 100% know them. My assumption is that the celebrity names are mostly kept the same as it is not entirely necessary to fully know them to still enjoy it. Just my guess though
Not sure about the other languages, but the Japanese public is pretty well-versed in US American celebrities, so the references I did see were kept in. For other pop culture stuff, yeah, if it's not very well-known to mainstream Japanese audiences, they'll generally change the reference to something that's more relatable.