Leaning On Takeoff - High Density Altitude Departure - MzeroA Flight Training
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 17 ต.ค. 2024
- 2 Week Trial Of Our Courses - mzeroa.lpages.... - Understanding the affects of density altitude on your aircrafts performance is critical during the departure portion of a flight. Proper engine leaning and knowing the runway distance required for takeoff are just a few of the key components. In this weeks video follow along as I depart KSEZ with a density altitude of 7,500' at the time of departure.
On HDA days, one needs to be careful in leaning for best power and maintaining a regular climb rate on takeoff. The engine will run much hotter than usual and the oil can become really thin and the pressure drop below the green. Also for us low wing fliers, vapor locking is a real issue if the fuel starts boiling in the lines and only vapor gets into the carburetor. Flying here in the northern California mountains, on hot days, I make sure I have plenty or runway and takeoff a bit richer on the fuel than usual in order to keep the cylinders cooler. On climb-out I keep the nose down by performing a shallow cruise climb rather than Vx or Vy. I start leaning for best power when I get some altitude where the air is cooler. Leaning for best power on takeoff will get you a shorter ground roll, but you really need to watch the oil temp/pressure and CHT. If needles start creeping towards out of the green, lower the nose or turn back and land. HDA is no joke.
Great addition my friend!!!
Thanks for the Info!
I fly regularly at a high density altitude. I'd like to add that you should lean your mixture for taxi because you can quickly foul your plugs.
California avi8tor that’s soooooo important, thanks for the reminder.
Not just at high density altitude. We do it each flight here in Florida as well for taxi.
How much DA is too much? generally speaking
This was such a really good visual demonstration of how anemic an airplane engine or piston engine can be at high density altitude take offs create stuff as usual thanks Jason
Jason, that is absolutely beautiful country out there. Thanks for the tips and keep 'em coming. My students love them.
Thank you for sharing with your students!
I think a nice topic for a video would be long XC flight planning. You know, those little things that make the difference but are often missing from textbooks or what not.
Great video! Greetings from Colombia!
I am currently in AZ from Florida, this was so timely. I am looking forward to doing some flying out here as soon as I can! Thanks Jason.
Get to Sedona it was AMAZING!!!!
Fantastic Mike, Today i learned after spending 40 Hours in my training what Leaning Actually does..
Good rule of thumb that my CFI taught me during Commercial training is that a good takeoff is highly probable if you get 70% or your rotation speed (Vr) before mid-field. If I do not get that on roll out, I pull the power back , gently apply the brakes, taxi back and re-attempt when air density is more favorable.
I didn’t notice any increase in RPM. Did you expect to get 2500 RPM’s for take off? I took off in HDA at KSFA and was too lean, had to rich it for enough power to climb out. Neither my plane nor I have confidence in HDA conditions.
Hm was that only 20rpm gain by leaning? Maybe this video plus more theoretical?
Awesome video! Never cease to surprise me how much knowledge this guy has.
I'm always learning my friend!!! But thank you.
That mixture setting made sense to me, and I’m not a pilot… well done.
Awesome demonstration. Will be sending my students to see your video.
Super! Thank you for sharing with your students.
I don't know if this common misconception still persist, but it sure use to. The airports around here are between 100 and 1000 feet MSL. On hot days some pilots I knew, one was a CFI, would do a full throttle run up and lean for max RPM for T.O. and climb out. I tried to explain to him why that was wrong below 3,000 ft. I told him it was a manifold pressure thing, not a density altitude thing. He said "What are you talking about? These planes don't have manifold pressure gauges." He wouldn't hear it from me. I wasn't a CFI I remember him saying " If it's really so bad, there'd be a warning in the POH about it." He was a CFI, and most likely teaching his students the same thing. I hope you're willing to talk about this issue.
As usual another great video.
Thank you my friend!!!
As a small engine & auto mechanic, plus having lived in the desert Southwest, I have a solid understanding of what altitude and heat do to carburetor fuel/air mixtures. Heat and altitude both richen, while cold air and closer to sea level lean. I remember riding my motorcycle in the valley (Phoenix), then headed up north to Sedona, and Flagstaff. The bike's power level dropped off very noticeably once over 3,000' . You wouldn't notice until you tried to pass a car, or gave it a good dose of throttle from a stop sign, or traffic light. You'd get used to it after a few hours. The same surprise would happen coming back into the valley - suddenly it felt like there was an extra 50 HP on tap. Whether that engine is in a motorcycle or an aircraft, it will behave exactly the same. I sure wish we had mixture knobs in our cars and on our bikes! 😊
Great video, as all of yours are, Jason. I appreciate all you do! 👍 A pilot's license is a bucket-list item for me. For now, I'm awaiting arrival of a paramotor I ordered just about 4 weeks ago - should be here soon! 🙌
Paramotor is on my bucket list so you beat me to it!!!
@@MzeroAFlightTraining - Nice, Jason! I think it will be a nice change for you, compared to the confines of the cockpit - guarantee you'd love it. 😎
I just got word that it's shipping tomorrow! 🎉 🎊 👍😊
Jason - why not 10% flaps and I'n assuming you didn't add to the richness of the mixture after takeoff, correct?
Hey Tony! Oddly enough the POH in 23MZ has flaps at zero for short and soft field ops! First time I had seen this in a 172. Correct on the mixture, I actually leaned it more on climb out.
Thanks for another very educational video! Also it was great for me and my Grandson to meet you briefly at Oshkosh 2019! We fly a 1976 Cessna 150M and it would be great to see some of these performance related videos done using your C-150 which would really highlight the performance factor considerations! :)
Hi Jason. Just curious. On your Hero7Black are you using Protune On or Off? If On what are your settings? Thanks.
You didn’t use or mention flaps? Being an Arizona based PPL, I would have used at least 10 in that situation, 20 if heavy. Curious as to your thoughts on that. Thanks
If I remember correctly, the poh for most 172's say no flaps except 180hp planes that say 10 for short field
That may be, I don’t recall what my 172F’s POH called for. Ive taken off in it at Sedona several times in the summer and always used 10 degrees and stayed light on fuel. The POH is based on standard conditions at sea level. Hot and high changes that significantly. I loved my 172 but these conditions are why I moved to a 182 for a better safety margin for my Mountain destinations
He did say that he would treat it as a short field takeoff which on a 172 assumes 10° flaps.
@@mattbasford6299 His model of 172 does not suggest using flaps of any kind on a short-field takeoff. You are assuming that the 172 you've flown (probably an R or S model) works the same as his (an L model)
Hey **JASON**! awesome vid 👍 great meeting you at OshKosh, too! Thanks for all the videos... really helped me with my ratings!
Who’s Mike?
@@stevezakis3274 thanks for catching that!
I enjoy your very professional videos (and flying).
For your information I'd like to point out my density altitude iPhone app, DenAlt which is available on the App Store.
DenAlt takes inputs of field elevation, air temperature, dew point, and altimeter setting and presents density altitude, absolute pressure, relative density, and relative humidity. I don't know about all ASOS's but sometimes the density altitude that they report is lower than the correct value because they don't account for humidity. It's fairly popular across the world.
Marcus Staloff just a heads up, just download your app, it’s not functioning properly. It will not allow you to switch only some of the settings. You have to change everything or it won’t take the change
Nice 👍 flight. Safe flight home. Love your channel.
Hi Jason. Again a great video for the High Density Altitude takeoff procedure. I note on your runup. I notice you did Left mag first then right. I have always taught the if you do right first, then left you will have less of a chance to take off on only one mag. I have had students do this, and I always let them and usually abort the takeoff as Vr speed is really late to come. Then on the taxi back we talk about it. In my 40 some years as a full time CFI I have had this happen probably a dozen times. Just food for thought.
Makes perfect sense! I guess I've always done it the other way (one click, one click back, two clicks, two clicks back) is what I say in my head. But I like your strategy, makes sense.
What do you mean? I don't get it
what a beautiful place, its also nice to see a cessna with a lively livery rather than just plain white for once
Great timing. This takeoff was mentioned in one of the regular columns in AOPA's Flight Training this month.
Question : So since the field elevation is roughly 4800 ft ,on the performance charts do you find the pressure Alt of 30.07-29.92 give you approximately 4650of PA would you use this PA of 4650 for take off climb performance such as Fuel, Time, Distance and use the Density alt of 7435 for take off distance performance ? Any answers would be greatly appreciated thank you !
Seems to me there should be aircraft performance charts with takeoff weight, engine rpm, temp, mixture settings, changes to Vx, Vy etc. as a function of density altitude. Your cellphone has the capability to run little computational routines/programs ("apps" ?) that years ago could have been in the pilot's handbook or paper checklist. (I doubt if folks use paper sectional charts or anything else on paper these days)
I believe for a O320 static rpm should only be around 2350. You should not get 2500 on the ground. I also noticed no flaps which is normal for my A36, he didn’t comment on flaps... I really appreciate your videos. Keep up the good work.
Great job Jason, I am headed out to Paige Arizona in October. This video will be very handy!
Welcome to Albuquerque Jason!! living and flying here in NM, we run into High density altitude basically every flight. Flying at sea level must be such a treat!! Sorry, but i didn't catch what airport your flying into in ABQ? Have a nice safe flight!! Love the videos!! ( P.s. is Mike your nickname? haha a few of ppl calling you Mike.) :-)
What model is that? The avionics are so.. different than what I've seen.
Also, how'd you get the livery on the inside of the plane?? It's so cool!
With a variable pitch prop? Then we find peak EGT and lean for maxEGT+50? Then go richer after a 200 ft climb?
Amazing Video! Have a great day Jason too.
You should make it to the Aviation Village at DefCon Las Vegas next year.
Awesome I’m Currently getting ready for my check ride I know I’ll do good because I’m a gold ground member.
I have flown into Sedona before but it was winter so not so much DA. Great video, keep up the good work.
How is 23MZ doing after that storm?
Good job as always, thank you. Really enjoy your videos.
Great advice and video!
But, the RPMs didn't change...?
Where are you looking at the tachometer it started at 2300 more or less and as he leaned it it went to 2500 full static
By the way what engine is that is that 180 hp with the alternate air or a different prop
@michaeljohn8905 no it didnt. You must be looking at manifold pressure. Full rich was about 2330 rpm and lean it peaked at 2360 rpm. So no where near 2500. Leaning the mix is important at high DA take off no argument. Fact remains he didnt achieve 2500 leaning his mixture.
Yeah, I’d just get as much as I can. Once it bogs down richen it up a bit and send it.
Would you mind sharing your route from CA to FL? would be great to see places you normally fly over when you do that trip. Thanks. SP
Thanks for the feedback, Steven!
Is it correct use a second reference like EGT? so high RPM and high EGT, when the EGT drop a little and mantain the high RPM after the return from leaner is better to run more safe for the engine?
Why do you think you took off so much sooner than the poh calc suggested? What was the fpm climb after takeoff? Love the videos!
His "abort mark" isn't the same place as his calculated ground roll.
Pilots sometimes use a rule of thumb for the abort mark, which is that you need 70% of your rotation speed by the runway halfway point.
Let's say you did your calculations for takeoff and it said you had plenty of runway. But for whatever reason, the engine isn't producing it's normal full power on takeoff (and you don't notice it). Not noticing the lack of full power could result in not taking off and climbing as you expected. There was a crash that happened to an airliner in Washington DC where that was the case, and the pilots didn't abort and ended up hitting a bridge after takeoff.
So was 23MZ repaired or was this video made prior to being damaged? Watching from Ocala, based out of Shady Intl!
Prior to damage! Hope you'll come visit the new studio, breaking ground at OCF soon.
@@MzeroAFlightTraining yes sir I would really enjoy that
How long did it take you to get home? and what was your average speed?
Jason, great video, Ive been wondering about this exact topic - a question: you mentioned you used short-field takeoff procedures, did that include 10deg of flaps (assuming that your 172 POH is still calling that out)?
MZ has zero flaps for short and soft field takeoffs in the POH. Super odd as every 172 I've flown asks for 10 degrees. She's unique! I have tested it before and it truly does lift off sooner and climb better on zero.
Bart L oh that is odd... so the recommendation for a HDA situation is to handle it using short field technique per the POH, which for MZ is 0 flaps, and for the rest of the 172 fleet is probably 10deg ...?
Can you answer Deer Nation question just below me. I am confused too with the RPM....thanks and great video
Great video, please do another on your XC from Sedona to Florida
Good lesson Jason thanks
Thank you my friend
could you do this by looking at the egt as well or only by rpm?
Does the poh say what the rpm should be set to when full power is applied?
Great video and hi form MMCU!!!
How much leaning can an 0-320,360 stand before it starts burning valves ??
Hi Ervin! Every aircraft is different. Consult your POH to make sure you aren't doing damage to the engine. Please reach out to us at support@mzeroa.com if you need any more clarification. Thanks for watching!
Interesting, I'm a student pilot and where I am DA is around 10.000ft, and I was taught to Always lean to best power before take off, its like what's normal here. Field elevation is 8390ft and last week it was 20 celsius.
Thanks for watching, Francisco!
I think it bares mentioning that the indicators that you chose to have your trainees focus on did not change from rich to takeoff-lean. Instead, the indicator that DID change drastically was fuel flow and EGT and you listened for engine roughness. Can you please clarify this to your 108,000 viewers so that they don't get the incorrect impression?
The short answer is that the mixture control on all planes are set to provide a comfortable margin of detonation avoidance in worst case situations. So, you are at sea level, on a cool dry day where the engine is capable of producing rated thrust at full rich. Your full 160-HP is available to you simply by pushing in the throttle to the stop and letting the engine achieve full RPM. By reducing the mixture from full rich, you move toward a more perfect stoichiometric ratio and you will be able to produce greater than rated power, but - at the decrease in detonation margin.
Seems you only got 10 more rpm by leaning (from2350>2360). I would have expected a greater increase.
Thanks captain
Also does this depend on the plane
Thanks Jason for this....When I watched the RPMs they only went up to 2360 when you were fully leaned....there was not much of a difference between when you were first at full power and full rich....what am I missing?
when the engine is run to full power on the ground without moving there is a lot of drag on the prop. It really cannot reach full RPM until there is some airspeed. The leaning allowed for the engine to reach full power as well as not foul the spark plugs.
Very good chanel salute
Wouldn’t it be easier to lean to peak egt?
I noticed the RPM was 2350 at full rich and the same leaned out. It reached 2360 RPM only for a second. So no real gain in RPM. The only significant change was the fuel flow dropped from 13.3 GPH to 8.3 GPH which is substantial! So you're only using about 60% as much fuel for the same amount of RPM. The downside is increased EGT and CHT temps. Oil temp increase was negligible. So why not just go full lean? Since you're not changing the RPM at all, how much is too much leaning? This wasn't addressed.
Hello! Thanks for your comment! You never want to pull the mixture all the way back to idle because this will kill the engine. In fact, a lot of airplanes use this as their shut down procedure. You don't want to get the engine too hot in most airplanes, especially at high power settings, so when in doubt keep it a little more rich than you would think! Please consult your POH as to whether or not your aircraft likes rich of peak or lean of peak. Thanks for watching and if you need any further clarification please reach out to us at support@mzeroa.com! Fly safe!
Recent takeoff from Prescott with full load, climb out was SOOOOOOO slow.... wish I had seen this one week earlier.
and the airspeed takes FOREVER to build
Why are we playing at 2x?
Works a little differently with throttle body injected o-320 I think.
No flaps?
Jason you should have a speak in Los Angeles I would pay to go see you give a lecture in la biggest fan btw
Awesome thank you my friend
Love Sedona!
It helps that 21 is downhill.
I what to learn to fly can you teach me please
Jay have you grabbed a copy of our Private Pilot Blueprint? (privatepilotblueprint.com) it's everything I WISH someone would have told me before I started my training.
Friend of mine died at that very airport because he didn’t pay attention to the DA, true killer especially in the western heat
Don’t want to be critical, but if you had lost your brakes during your run-up or leaning procedure, it looks like you’d have gone right off that cliff!
The dreaded dual brake failure
LEAN IT OUT!