Could you create a video about rape culture in HIMYM series ? I started to write about it, but I'm not familiar enough with this subject yet , and I thought you could create some great content on this.
So refreshing to hear something that actually rings true, rather than aspirational. The focus on becoming stronger from trauma implicitly creates a sense of shame from living with the effects of trauma
@@deborak9075 v people who suffer from trauma aren’t the ones making mistakes. They’re suffering from the mistakes of OTHERS. Your logic doesn’t apply here.
I have noticed that when a woman says she has been abused, everyone expects the abuse to be of a sexual or physical nature. I used to be psychologically abused by my jewelcrafting school's headmaster. When I reported him, I was asked if he sexually assaulted me. After saying he didn't, my complaint was treated as a simple dispute between him and me.
had a similar happening with about my ex, who did a smiring campain for years, so that I became physically sick ... when I went to a place for helping women of abuse, they reacted the same first ... it is, like the law does not support any action, when there is no visual harm ... I hope, You can have peace
i have spent a whole lifetime wishing and waiting to be hit or sexually touched. i don't even want anything to change, but i dream of him being reported like people would dream of winning the lottery or getting a free mansion. like you don't think about all the complexities, where would your friends and family and job and identity go. but it's easy to escape reality in. the truth is i just want to feel valid and for some reason i feel like i need the world's stamp of approval to say yes i suffered. i still am working through whether i believe it or if i'm just having a hard life and looking for somewhere to place the blame.
I really enjoy revenge films, such as Kill Bill, because it allows for escapism. With how hopeless victims of abuse may feel, especially when dealing with the police, it can be helpful to indulge in revenge fantasy.
While I understand that, surely you agree that a more nuanced view of victims is needed in media. If it’s only every the voiceless perpetual victim or the unrealistic power fantasy revenge story it really still does not paint victims as real people (and revenge stories are so unrealistic that it’s the other narrative that is more internalized by people imo).
@@kstar1489 You can do both. There definitely needs more nuanced representation of victims such as Marie in Unbelievable. However, as a victim, I actively enjoy watching films like Kill Bill because it takes away the realism from coping after trauma. When it's too realistic, it can be triggering and depressing - especially for those who have experienced abuse and have not had justice for whatever reason.
@@fay4769 I understand that, but I’d imagine other victims would like relating to more nuanced portrayals. But I can understand the enjoyment of a revenge power fantasy, because it can make you feel powerful. But I think there are other portrayals of power that are not so fantastical, if that makes sense. But I understand. Have a good day
I understand what you mean but Stories like Kill Bill where a person is raped/sexually assaulted and it’s never again mentioned bother me because they trivialise the trauma of sexual violence.
That and The Bride didn’t become an assassin just after her trauma. She was one before finding out she was pregnant. That and I appreciate that she was allowed to be a mother to BB after finding out she was alive
I find that another problem with the survivor super heroine is the sort of pressures it puts on survivors, as if they are dignified only if they show super human strenght, which should be demanded of nobody
Yes, it makes the survivor feel further shame. The freeze response was there to protect them and they shouldn’t feel as if they responded wrong. It’s the way the system reacts when the brain is trying to process the disbelief of what’s occurring. I have felt shame when males in my life say when we are watching tv how great it is that the victim fought back vs doing nothing. I froze each time and it brings me shame. I’m working on the shame, because we did nothing wrong. The predator did.
@@Chris-rg6nm We're not looking for problems, we're paying attention (as everyone should be) to horrendous problems that are already there. They won't be solved unless we start by paying attention.
We also need to talk about how black women are never seen as victims. Black women are often blamed while the people who harm black women are victimized. The police don’t do anything when it’s a black women who was harmed or even killed and black women don’t have any protection in our own community. Black women are literally being killed and trafficked but nobody cares. I feel like black women often get ignored and our voices are never heard. I was a victim of sexual assault myself. The police did nothing and I was blamed. Even my own family member called me “ damaged goods”.
Jesus Christ. I am sorry this happened to you. And you are right - black women are not given the same protections. But listen to me. You. Are. Not. Damaged. Goods. Please always know that.
That's absolutely awful, you're not 'damaged goods', you have worth beyond your sexual history. Fyi though, its not just black girls. Its women in general (minorities def have it worse). Rape is a crime you're almost guaranteed to get away with, only 6% of rapes ever result in an arrest and only 1% in felony convictions. Screw these men that commit such crimes and damn to hell those who defend this sexist world. Things are changing, slowly, but for the better. Only 100 years ago, we couldn't even vote. Now we're getting affirmative consent laws.
Hannah Baker wasn’t a completely likable character but the way people mock, demonize and speak about that character, a teenage victim of bullying and rape, is disturbing. Have even heard people say she deserved what happened to her. Although she’s fictional it shows how people feel about real female victims. There is no such thing as a perfect victim and they are not less deserving of justice or empathy because their personalities and life choices were flawed..
agreed. i've seen so many posts making fun of hannah for being overdramatic and insufferable. hannah witnessed an assault and was assaulted. she killed herself because of that. she's not being a dramatic teen, she is a victim of abuse.
They do the same with every female character that Is not perfect. Instanly demonize her, builly her and discredit all the good points and merit she has.
@@mewesquirrel6720 about the get help, have you been in a situation of assault or r*pe? If yes, you are very brave. The majority of people living through this didn’t get help because the don’t get taken seriously or the culprit is preferred and receives protection.
We can include race in this as well. I was sexually assaulted in the military. I remember the last two years I had been having issues with my chain of command. Everyone pretty much thought I was a troublemaker because I was very strong willed and spoke up. Needless to say, I had gotten in trouble the beginning of deployment and then the last day of deployment I was sexually assaulted. I wasn’t going to report it because I knew I wouldn’t get help, but a shipmate over heard me telling my best friend and he anonymously reported it. Nothing happened until a white woman said the same had happened to her and during the investigation, they hadn’t decided if I should be interviewed or even taken seriously because of my “record.” That took a very long time even process. I remember hearing some of my shipmates say things like “probably just another hoe mad cause she couldn’t get what she wanted.” The memory loss thing is true because when traumatic things happen you either forget in chunks or remember pieces of things you didn’t think about for a long time. I remembered a particular incident from my childhood and it was definitely hard. It took 7 years for me to be able to cope with it and be sad about it because people would tell me not to talk about it. Or tell me it’s not a big deal it happened and to move on from it. It’s crazy… but I do believe there is a before and after you because it does completely change who you are as a person.
I'm sorry that you had that experience, not just the assault, but the reaction, and not being taken seriously. I'm glad someone reported it, because maybe it prevented it happening in the future. Maybe. I hope going forward, you are believed, no matter how people perceive your personality.
@@DorotaGabal thank you! I really appreciate it. As open as I’ve been about it… it was hard to confront exactly how I felt until I went to therapy. I appreciate your kind words ❤️
UBG, you are the MVP. I have heard and read many reports on sexual assault within the military. I believe you. I used to believe in our military and most of American Police, but now...I just can't. Their empty words and lack of honorable actions are very disturbing to me and many others. (Even as a white girl. Mostly as a female in general.) Not all enforcement/enforcers are good people...and even a portion of bad apples---no matter how small---can make the entire batch look tarnished and rotten. I hope you get justice, but our system is imperfect. Arrogant fools, scumbags and miscreants deserve harsh sentences/punishments.
Thank you so much for mentioning that survivors don’t magically become stronger after an assault. I was a boxer and did CrossFit. My years of training did not make an appearance when I was assaulted and I’ve been plagued with illnesses from my c-ptsd. Years have passed and I haven’t regained the strength I had. I sure as hell am working towards healing, but it takes such a long time and a courage to face staying in the present. I found myself recalling Judge Persky, the judge who ruled over Channel Miller’s case. I have continued to volunteer with legislation surrounding sexual assault. I am a biopsychology student. I will not give up until I am healed and help other survivors. Sending you all love.
I would suggest watching their take on "Likeable" women. Plenty of male characters have been unlikeable, or downright evil and get a pass. Completely different for women.
@Unboxing Alyss I saw that, I don't disagree with their take, but plenty of male characters are complained about too, in terms of not being likable. A term i find to be kinda subjective in the first place.
As a “victim” of sexual abuse myself, I find it very difficult to talk to both men men and women about my experience. If I speak of it unfazed, then it’s awkward, uncomfortable and TMI. If I speak about how it negatively effects me, then I have a “victim complex” and need to get over it. I feel like women are only allowed to speak of trauma like they’re reciting a testimonial in an inspirational self-help seminar. Sometimes “victims” feel sad and defeated, sometimes they feel like it’s a regular part of their reality… I think it’s harmful how victims of sexual abuse need to keep it hush hush in order to keep status quo. That’s part of why it’s so common.
It's not really normal to bring up trauma in a casual conversation. It would be uncomfortable for someone to bring up the time they saw their friend drown in a pool, too. That's just the way it is.
Ikr, i feel so sorry for you, and i hope things get better for victims especially w the mainstreaming of movements encouraging people to come out and speak against their abusers. Im so sorry for you, ur feelings are valid, and you deserve to be heard.
Speaking of Monica Lewinsky (who should get her title of Fashion Icon right away), can you speak on The Mistress trope (how she and The Wife are victims of a patriarchal narrative that let's men off while blaming both women for a broken marriage and how women are categorized against one another and how both roles involve emotional labor, how toxic the Ride or Die narrative is for women (in the words of Falco's Hillary, they never prioritize themselves just the relationship which mostly mean just the man), and the Big Beautiful Woman trope (she is an extension of the Bombshell, with the added burden of being limited to her size as well as her proportions, she is a Goddess in one view or is treated badly and disparagingly), also how in the 90s and 00s we saw real women pressured to live up to the Heroin Chic ideal while cartoon women enjoyed a voyeuristic celebration of ample hips, thighs, and butts
Precisely, Monica got the most blame for the affair, despite Clinton also being involved, and the real Monica is an executive producer on the show, so that we get a more authentic portrayal from her perspective, without making her a completely innocent victim.
My father's abuse made me be able to fight back physically and learn how to fight and defend myself however it did not make me some badass hero, in fact made me mentally drained and unwell and 'caused me to be filled with anger and do violent shit for no reason so these movies portraying it as all good is really bad.
I get your point, but ultimately the effect of having few rape-revengers stories *combined* with even-less-still amounts of realistic survivor-positive non-revengers narratives is negative. . The hidden-victims-crouching-bad*ss (to borrow and misuse that title) concept is extremely damaging to people who experience freeze or failed-flight, or whose bodily response to the adrenaline-rush of terror + physical stimulation (especially if they're date-rape drugged or 'gentle-raped' aka restrained or threatened but forced to participate and climax) is orgasm. . Besides, the revengers stories are never as satisfying when they strip the female of everything she ever was in order to basically turn her into a man-with-boobs (which is to say, they get rid of all of her 'inconvenient' feminine traits and turn her into the emotionless potty-mouthed killer *who's always so smugly right about everything* which they still hold to be the ideal traits and behaviour of successful straight manly-men).
When I was in my 20's (in the late 90's) I was living in L.A and a professional actor. I looked at the breakdowns (casting notices) every day, and nearly every female role called for partial/total frontal nudity and/or a rape scene. Usually both. It hasn't gotten much better.
Prior to "Once Upon a Time in Hollywood", Sharon Tate had *never* been portrayed outside of her death or in a way that wasn't directly linked to Polanski or the growing threat of Charles Manson. It took Margot Robbie, Quentin Tarantino and less than 10 minutes of screen time for the narrative of "Sharon Tate: victim" to shift to "Sharon Tate: human". She *is* portrayed as an innocent, glamorous, joyful woman --- but that is who she was by all accounts, and that depiction isn't to objectify her but it's so audiences can be faced with the fact that she wasn't always synonymous with tragedy. As far as her being portrayed as one-dimensional, I would argue that it's because we are seeing her from the perspective of Rick Dalton, who doesn't know her personally but is aware of her public persona. It isn't a biopic, although Debra Tate (Sharon's sister) has stated she was so impressed by Margot Robbie's ability to capture Sharon with such little material, that she would be her first and only choice to play her in a movie solely about *her* life. That speaks volumes. I do think the overall characterization is on its surface, easily mistaken as one dimensional, but her mere presence in the film is something that's never been done before and it holds such meaning that frankly, I think we're ready for a Sharon Tate biopic to get into how she got to that point in her life.
I loved the scene where goes to the screens of her movie "The Wrecking Crew", interacts with the young lady at the ticket booth and theater manager, and most of all seeing the movie audiences reactions.
"she wasn't always synonymous with tragedy" The entire movie watching her I felt like I was watching a Shakespearian tragedy, Rick Dalton was going through the movie suffering greatly while all her scenes showed her having so much fun and living the high of Hollywood success so I just assumed at the end they would cross, she meets a nightmare end while Rick ends up on the high of Hollywood success. That was before remembering Tarantino revises history in period pieces. I just felt dread the entire time watching her scenes knowing what was going to happen to her (or what I thought was going to happen based on the actual events).
I guess this beats the hell out of the story that might have been, had she live.... S. Tate, one hot piece of ass that had minimal acting talent, and who fell off the radar after her twenties ended. I.E. the fate of most actresses who aren't masters of their craft
@@IRHasDiabetes911 "Red Pill", only in the sense that these are statical realities. Not just actresses, but actors also. For every DiCaprio, Pitt, or even Woody Harrelson who transitioned from sitcoms to lucrative film careers, there's million more Ian Zierings, Jason Gedericks, and Jaleel Whites
When the word "survivor" started being more commonly used I felt almost obligated to start using it. But it didn't really change how I felt about myself. I still felt like a victim, but very quickly I was pressured not to use that word. Especially by other women. I'm not sure where I fall inbetween the two "victim" or "survivor" now, only that I was changed.
Being a victim, by definition, means being harmed as a result of a crime. A victim is not a label that defines you, it’s just language. If something awful happened to you, and you are victim, you are still a million other things. You still have strength, weakness, courage, kindness. I think trying to deny the word victim only doubles down on the shame that people are made to feel for having being the target of a crime.
That’s not fair that you were pressured to not use a word that you felt depicted your experience. I hope you’re able to find someone to help you through recovery. I’ve finally found a therapist who is helping me through every part of me that felt something in these situations. We’re using internal family systems therapy by Richard Schwartz . I just started ketamine assisted therapy. It’s such a hard road to recovery and there’s so much shame associated with all the feelings. May we all come to realize how we can get help and no longer feel shame for something that we didn’t ask for. The predators are the ones who should be ashamed. And other survivors/victims should not be shaming us for expressing ourselves!
@@Saavycupcake Yes! The ones hurt should always have the narrative, so they can heal. It's hard because sometimes those words, victim/survivor work for people. Sometimes they don't. Healing is rarely a straight line, in my experience. It's usually a cycle, & takes time, because it's like peeling off layers from a onion, and each layer is a new revelation, or a deeper understanding or acceptance of what happened & how you responded & who are you now. Sometimes it hurts. Sometimes it makes you cry. Or it makes you feel better. Or at least that's my experience / based on a lot of stuff I've read. I don't think victim or survivor fully grasps the whole of the experience? Maybe there are better words / phrases in other languages? Maybe the word or phrase hasn't been created yet? Languages are living & ever changing after all. I'm still trying to find the answer. Here's all the encouragement for healing, however long that takes for you, and whatever shape it makes. Yes, the predators should be ashamed. But they should also change. And society, everywhere, needs to change, until "rape" & "sexual assault" become near forgotten, unused words, because they almost never happen. That's the future I'm working for.
I prefer the word "target" over "victim." it puts the moral judgment where it belongs, on the predator, and not on the prey, while subtly conveying that it behooves people not to broadcast weakness at the watering hole.
@Erwin Lii i wouldnt even say it's just the white mainstream media. my family is from mexico so i keep up w what's happening there. the r*pe and femicide of mexican women even by their own media is awful. many victims are purposefully portrayed as promiscuous, prostitutes, or troubled runaways, even though most are just working class women who try to earn money for their families in factories and "clean jobs." it's all just a distraction, for many people who hate women, there is no such thing as a "good" or "perfect" victim. if she is, they will lie and misrepresent her to dismiss the issue
Sorry to sound like a broken record and bring up Lady Diana again, but ‘Diana: In Her Own Words’ and audiotapes in her name are riveting not only because it’s her but because she vented her thoughts and complex situation after being monitored for so many years.
Can you do a video on the "rebel grandma" character? I'm thinking of Gertie from Hey Arnold or the grandmother in the little red riding hood retell Hoodwinked (2005). The woman who's adventurous and fearless and unapologetic. This character kind of gets to me because this woman is framed as doing what she wants to do because it's only when she's old that she can finally be herself. It's like women can't be wild and free (in a socially acceptable way) until they're 80. "Just let grandma do her thing, she doesn't have a lot of time left."
Also how older women are explored as sympathetic though smothering in "The Mirror Has Two Faces" and "Only the Lonely" where the mothers, played by acclaimed actresses of old Hollywood, face a societal obsolescence being pushed on them despite still feeling lively and how loosening their grip on their kids and traditional values help them grow
I think Aimee in Sex Ed was well portrayed post her experience SA. She wasn't just limited to her trauma nor was her trauma just forgotten like some minor mishap.
Female victims are portrayed as tragic, or perfect because audiences don't like nuanced characters that aren't salt of the earth characters. They don't want relatability, they want likeability. This is less about writers and more about audiences tastes. 🤷🏻♀️
I was recently sexually harassed at my old job. And was labeled a troublemaker, because I was scared to report it at first, because I was afraid he’d retaliate. He did anyway. He ran his mouth, turned a friend against me. Immediately afterwards, my supervisor rode me for two months straight about anything and everything. I saw people getting away with the crap, Mr. Schmidt was bustling my balls for. He spied on me, throwing away a good part. ( a lot of people did that too) I called in sick the next day, because working in a foundry requires stamina. I got fired the morning after, as soon as I walked in the door. The same people that didn’t do shit about my boob being grabbed, gave me a little speech about, stealing from the company, and I wouldn’t be getting my last check if I didn’t turn in my uniforms in. I said ‘Yeah, I know.’ And walked out on them. Went straight to the locker room, grabbed all my shit. Saw them lurking in the hallway, and walked out. I’m doing much better at my new job. Got a two dollar raise, and people leave me alone.
This is interesting timing, considering the first two episodes of Hawkeye just came out. I was wondering how they would handle Kate Bishop’s origin story. In the comics, she was sexually assaulted when she was a younger teenager. The show drops that plot point altogether. I think it was a good decision.
I think the show did an amazing job of re-imagining the character. She's inspired by an amazing and overlooked moment from The Avengers. And, the show is named for 2 characters: one who is retiring and another who is just starting.
People (grown man-babys) can complain all they want. But Disney manages the recreation of the heros recently, not falling for their sexist and temper tantrums. I mean, captain Marvel was creaded for little girls, who needed a súper heroine role model that was not in the background, not entitlled men and teenagers. The girls liked it and the family too, wich were the objetive public.
@@kiriki4558 Ms Marvel was created for little girls and any female readers of comics in general back in the late 60's though of course there weren't many at the time. She was also created to be Marvel's response to Wonder Woman. Captain Marvel on the other hand has only been established in the last decade of mostly poorly and lazily written comics from Marvel as nothing more than an incredibly unlikeable, incredibly selfish, incredibly self righteous, typical modern feminist icon that stripped away everything that use to be likeable, relatable and fun about Carol Danvers when she was Ms Marvel. She is such a horribly unlikeable character that when she killed Iron Man at the end of Civil War II, she showed absolutely no remorse whatsoever. Nobody likes her now, not even most female readers such as myself. Who says little girls and families liked the movie. I highly doubt that it is the case. Other than than her sheer power, there is absolutely nothing for any little girl to takeaway in regards to her character and relatability. They take a lot more from Rey than they would Captain Marvel because there is at least some level of relatability there and she is actually somewhat likeable character played a very likeable actress with a very likeable personality similar to Keira Knightley's. Most audiences and critics thought the film was bang average and forgettable which it absolutely was. Its not a terrible film by any means but the writing of Carol Danvers is horrendous and choosing to go with the unlikeable depiction in the comics over the last decade that nobody likes nor cares about instead of the one who is actually likeable, relatable, fun and most importantly far better, more natural fit for the MCU when she was Ms Marvel was a huge mistake.
@@taliamason7986in a good world, we’d be able to have a wide range of female characters. Likability and relatability are completely subjective, so we can have Rey AND Captain Marvel. It’s ok if captain marvel didn’t work for you. But she did work for me and my daughter, and it gets annoying seeing people assume that “this didn’t work for me” is the same thing as “this is bad”. Not only that, but people tend to dump hate on captain marvel in a way they don’t in other supposedly bad marvel films(say, Thor: The Dark World). Anyone who’s ever left multiple comments about captain marvel but never said a word about dark world should think about why they’re so angry about one but not the other
I love Inej Ghafa. She suffered so much, but she kept her heart, and made herself powerful. She's also more than a superhero trope, she's complex, and we actually see her perspective.
One of the reasons I love this site is that there are so many sincere and well expressed feelings in the comments which often generates a truly worthwhile discussion! Thanks Debra and Susannah! While we're cooped up from the pandemic we can still engage in lively and interesting discussions which keep our brains and hearts alive.
Also just to chime in, we really want to see people as either victims or abusers but we shouldn't forget that people can be both in different situations, and unresolved trauma can lead to abuse as well.
Was a victim/survivor of school bullying and harassment in 3rd grade, by both classmates and teachers. But I do not define myself as that. Rather, I have dreams and ambitions to be a writer. With a plan to mock my bullies as characters in my book. To quote from A Knight's Tale, "I will eviscerate you in fiction"
I love the spirit ! I'm also a survivor of school bullying. It started when I was 7 and ended when I was 15.. Kids and teens can be horrible. So I support you and I hope you'll succeed as a writer ! (Sorry for my bad english.. >
@@Chris-rg6nm There's no acceptional age in bully, Chris. So have fun trying to push people down to go up, because that cycle loves it's member, and I hope you're ready when it comes back to you.
Great topic to touch on! This is something I have never thought about, even as a woman. Crazy how much this victim/survivor narrative saturates our media. Would have loved for you all to touch more on the kind of beauty that garners sympathy. It's unfortunate that many times women who don't look like these stagnant beauty ideals don't even get a victim/survivor story, they're just completely invisible.
I read studies, that say overweight women are more likely to be attacked than others. NOT a reality Hollywood producers (or writers of thrillers) are ready to show their audience. IF the victim doesnt sexually appeal to the powers in the industry, her story isnt told. The end. 🙃
@@moustik31 Wow, that is awful, but honestly makes a lot of sense. It seems easier for predators to attack women that they know nobody is concerned about because she doesn't fit the "type".
Why did you put Laura Palmer in this category?... Lynch went to great lengths to give Laura agency, hence The Fire Walk With Me movie, where Laura truly understands who Is her abuser AND refuses to be possessed by Bob. She Is not a mere plot device, SHE IS TWIN PEAKS.
I feel like Twin Peaks IS a deconstruction of the “she was so beautiful” victim narrative. Yes, she is beautiful and a victim but that’s not all she is!
Precisely, she's even stronger than Cooper. She was selected to become Bob but he couldn't tempt her into being evil, she chose death (i.e. to be murdered) rather than becoming something she despised. She's empowered, wilful, insightful, intelligent and wise. She's complex and doesn't act like an 'angel', but she's unequivocally herself.
@@skullsaintdead AND there Is no other way. When cooper tries to turn back time AND avoid her death, it does not work. She cannot be saved by a knight in shiny Armour (or FBI suit) there are More important things at Stake. Also, you cannot change the past.
@@augustosolari7721 Omg yes, I totally forgot about that! I remember watching it about 5 years ago when I was in this depression, thinking 'holy fuck, she's someone worthy of my respect and admiration'. I've remembered that scene where she chooses death over being controlled ever since, she endures rape, molestations, torture, manipulation and yet, she still fights, she remains true to herself! The empowerment in that. Incredible.
I got the coldest chills hearing Kyle Stephens talk about her father… The disbelief we project onto others is such a reflection of our own denial. That’s why “The Tale” hit home so hard for me. If you can handle the material, it’s such an important film. So often we don’t understand what’s happened to us until much later, because all we remember are our 14-year-old emotions about what happened, and not the facts and reality. Repainting your past with that harsh truth is very painful.
Laura is a critique of our shallow consideration of victims of violence! She was, as far as I can gather from interviews with Lynch and Frost, a response to how inconsequential violence perpetrated against young women was portrayed on TV. Her death deeply touches every person in town and even upsets our relationship to reality, untangling appearances in response to grief, guilt, sexuality, and friendship.
Laura Palmer's fictional character was based on the murder of Marilyn Monroe and another person who actually was she was laura's age when she was murdered. But she is given a bigger voice in the prequel movie fire walk with me, the missing pieces and The Secret diary of Laura palmer. I understand why they included her in the list but they should have mentioned both the prequel movie, deleted scenes and the book giving her a voice and deeper understanding of what she was fighting against. Especially the book.
I love how Law Order SVU portrays the “survivor” characters. They can be flawed, but they are not the warriors that we see in Kill Bill or films like that. They get help, gradually “move on” from their trauma. No one can move on from this, I know that. However, the characters make sure it does not ruin their lives or take control of them. I think this is a more authentic portrayal of survivors. Also, like the Take said, not everyone on this show survived even after some tried to.
@@theunknown5386 i think it depends on the character. For example, I don’t think Olivia walked away from it. Her past will always follow her but she does not dictate who it is. Some of the people she helps might not be able to follow the same path Olivia has and feel forced to walk away from it. It is a grey area which this show shows many time.
My friend and neighbor was murdered by her bf on thanksgiving. Then TH-cam recommended this video.. I love you girls from The Take, but this was a personal and tough watch. Her name was Amanda and she didn’t deserve this.
For months after my abuse I thought that it was all I was from that point. I couldn't think or talk of anything else so I tried to escape hooking up with random guys (I always ended up crying and they ran) and drinking a lot. And then the quarentine started and I had no choice other then face myself, every part of me, it was not easy but after so many time alone I realised that I was a hole person before and after that night, just because I was a victim it doesn't mean that the rest of me disappeared. It's not easy, it will never be, but as an actress and writter I hope I can turn my pain into art one day, when I'm ready.
Last Night in Soho, Edgar Wright’s new movie, had an interesting take on the victim archetype. Watch it and you’ll know what I mean. It was probably wise for Edgar to co-write the movie with a woman.
I really hate it. It turns the victim into a maniac psychopath, an evil person and ultimately the purpose of the main character was to "save" the one that abuse her. I've seen it like a male fantasy, like Carrie (I hate Carrie, really using a natural process that happens to half of humanity once a month like a horror plot?).
@@aureliekika her getting her period wasn't the "horror plot" of the movie. Carrie grew up with a fanatically religious mother who constantly abused her, she never had access to sex ed or anything comparable which ultimately led to the mean girls bullying her when she got her first period and was scared and vulnerable because of it. She wasn't bullied because she had her period, she was bullied because she was an outcast, that showed vulnerability in front of people who will exploit it for their own personal fun. This is also quite obvious, when they make her prom queen as a cruel prank in order to humiliate her by ruining her dress and appearance in front of the whole school and crushing her illusion of being accepted and liked. It is absolutely fine, that you do not like the movie but calling it a "male fantasy" is just straight up wrong, so please don't throw around these terms when they do not apply.
I can’t stomach Rape Revenge movies. I can’t handle the long rape scenes. I have a friend who’s an actress and she filmed one of those scenes. I saw seconds of it before I couldn’t take it, and those images are burned in my mind.
Same, in my mind i'm always worried about the actress and how they treated her during the filmation. The directors seem to think they are just toys they can play with instead of a person they should respect and conside their well-being. Those scenes to me are unnecesary, inaccurate and disrespectful not only to survivors, but to all women.
@@Chris-rg6nm on second look, never mind. You’ve posted over 600 comments on this channel complaining about it, so I guess you have nothing better to do lol. Carry on I guess
Lol this Chris person keeps commenting. This is exactly the sack of poop person who sides with predators and laughs when there are assault jokes. You’re so basic, Chris. Hopefully you have one redeeming quality, but seriously.. do better.
"it almost feels like the most tragic aspect of luaras death was that she was so beautiful" uhh have you seen twin peaks? very bad example to segue into an otherwise valid point about reducing women, especially victims, to their beauty. fwwm adds so much depth to Laura's character. to say she is merely the catalyst for the other plot lines is misunderstanding the entire series. Laura literally is the entire heart and centerpiece of the show, despite the show taking place after her death. twin peaks showed that a single victims death can affect an entire town and be the key piece to understanding everything, not just a plot point or murder statistic.
yeah but they only went into detail about the gruesome history of sexual assault and incest in fire walk with me. twin peaks, as great of a show as it was, fell into the trope of reducing her to being this beautiful, mythological personhood who never had agency over her own life or choices.
@@milktoasted (spoilers) her choices re:bob directly lead to her being murdered. i feel she does have agency and her choices to not let bob in add a lot to her character. like shes trying to protect her loved ones and the townspeople from this evil force at the cost of herself
I lost so much respect for Blake Lively for working with Woody Allen especially since she's been such an advocate against sexual abuse against children... On another, more important note- this was a very interesting and well-made video!
Not everything is as literal as it looks. She probably has her reasons for working with him. Woody Allen's case is not as clear and direct to everyone. His current wife never made any allegations or claims against him, she adamantly wants to be with him and she's an adult. The problem is the unnatural circumstances of how they met. The other problem is societal view on it. They're both consenting adult who chose an unnatural course of action. I'm not condoning their act, I'm just saying it might also be hard for Blake to understand where she stands on the issue.
@@LT-bk3qk She was groomed by him. The only reasons that she has to work with him is money. Just because his wife didn't say anything doesn't mean that he is innocent.
I was a victim of physical, emotional, and sexual abuse. Your video helped me understand myself. I’m literally crying. This is my favorite channel. God bless you!
From my own experiance, after suffering from sexual assault and then dealing with the trauma and living with ptsd - it was very dificult for me to view myself as anything other than a victim. My whole identity became that one bad thing that happend to me. However, as months and years went by and i started healing and i started to remember who i was and who i am. I am me and that experiance doesnt define me. But during the period of surviving the trauma it was so overwhealming and difficult to see anything other than trauma when i looked at myself. Looking back at it now, it was a significant step in the journey forward, towards healing
I was 5-6 years old when I was abuse by my grandpa's employee. I kept it at the back of my head for so long that a few years when I saw him in his funeral it came flooding back. I don't know why to this day I never told anyone about it. Is it wrong to say that I feel like didn't need to? What's worst is, what he did to me in the past I sometimes do to myself. I don't know why I do it, I sometimes feel like it's the right thing to do even though it's wrong. I'm afraid to speak up cause I know they'll ask me why I didn't tell them for so long. I've kept this for almost 20 years now
It would be good if you could talk to a therapist about this. What you’re going through is normal for someone with that experience, and a therapist could really help you process it I think.
Thank you both. Though I don't think a therapist is an option. There's barely a therapist in our community. Plus I have family who's into medical field. Almost all doctors know each other. If I get one most likely they will find out. But it's fine, I feel better now. Though there are set backs. I've manage to work it for almost 20 years so I'd say I'm okay 🙂
@@aliceeve6421 That's good to hear! But just know that there are online resources for therapy too nowadays. Also, patient confidentiality is the first rule of being a therapist, it would literally be illegal to tell anything you say to anyone without your consent.
There have been a lot of things that I was a victim too but I buried those thoughts and feelings so deep that I don't if they're real anymore. It takes a lot to move on.
Omg thank you soooo much for putting Room as an example in this video i have always loooved that movie and it more accurately shows the aftermath of survivors than most movies
I completely disagree with the POV that “Once Upon a Time in Hollywood” brought any kind of depth to Sharon Tate’s character. Opposite of that, I think it shows her as an ethereal being, innocent-like and completely void of any layers in her personality. I saw her as an object once more and that’s why I don’t like that movie. The only interesting characters are ill intended men
I feel like now that we have accepted victims there is a sort of pressure society puts on them. I’ve been told I need to “make peace with myself”, “stop being angry” and worse “stop victimising myself”. There is a time stamp on how long you can feel like a victim and need to shift onto the survivor narrative. People still judge you and expect you to be perfect and mature about it. You can post on social media but people don’t want to see your life fall apart because of it. If you do you’re “not fun anymore”. There is still so little space held for us. I feel like I’m failing at trauma
You don't have to force yourself to be healed. There is no right way. It's a messy and confusing process. I would say, listen but also trust your guts. Listen to how you feel and you decide what it means to you. Yes, I agree. We are an aesthetic age. We don't want to see the ugly. We want to handle things beautifully. There are so many ugly things. Trauma is plain ugly. We just find reasons to get through it day by day and see what tomorrow brings.
Thank you, The Take. I nearly cried. It’s so poignant and close to my own experience. Even years later, I still am readjusting, growing, crying, and smiling.
I completly love your channel, your deep dives into female tv/movie tropes has made me reflect upon my biased perception of myself and women around me. As a survivor myself, I'm beyond glad that you decided to shed a light into this survivor/victim binary, it is freeing to grow past trauma, however rushing to leave victmhood behind can leave many of our issues unattended. My strenght should not be defined by how quickly I get back on my feet after trauma, neither by how well I can portray a super hero facade. In reality, victims/survivors are everywhere, you can't tell us a part from others, so it would also be freeing to have society not frame our traumas as a impossible to heal wound, a eternal source of pity and darkness, a curse who one can't scape once marked. For the longest I felt like this, marked as less than.I did not wanna share my story fearing to recognize myself as a doomed creature, but once I spoke my healing path became clearer, and less lonely. I hope if someone who went trough the same is reading this comment and is reluctant to seek healing, as the take said it, it is only the beggining of your journey, you'll have such wonderful things to experiment once you get to know and forgive yourself for what trauma made you do. I hope this was heartwarming for anyone who took the time to read. OUT ARGUE BAD NARRATIVE IN HEAD
When I told my family what happened (I'd been inappropriately touched when I was 10 by someone I was supposed to trust with my life), their disbelief and dismissal contributed to my depression and suicide plan - more so than the actual event. Being believed was crucial for me, but another 14 years on, the lack of acknowledgement is something that still creates a wedge between myself and those loved ones most important to me. Even in a relatively mild incident such as mine, recovery is still an ongoing process 18 years later. There is not deadline for recovery. But, in my experience, the process is worth the effort.
I'm sorry to hear that. It really hurts when the person you want to be there for you just isn't. They shouldn't have just dismiss you. They should try to understand your memory. They should have just sat down and listened and be there with you. I have so much sympathy for you. I wouldn't know how to go through it alone. But live for you. I promise that there are good people somewhere out there. It takes time to find them and once you found the perfect support or people you can trust and be comfortable with. Life will be sweet. Just have hope. Give things a try. Because Life has deadline too, so we try and try to find that small glimpse of light and love.
@@LT-bk3qk Thank you! These are much kinder words than I was expecting! In the 18 years since, I've actually had a great life. It's taken awhile to address the memories, and there are some people in my life who may never really apologize for their role in what happened. But I've gotten to the point of being enough for myself so I don't need their understanding or apology. It really helps to realize one's become the kind of adult they needed at the age they were mistreated. I hope you are having a good life as well and that there are many people in your life who appreciate your remarkable empathy!
Spoilers I suppose for twin peaks the return Laura was deliberate commentary on these tropes, and ultimately everything to do with her death onwards was undone. The emotional climax of that series was Cooper saving her.
Victimhood doesn't define anyone... *they define themselves* ♡ Chanel Miller is so inspirational... btw can you do the "hot girl" trope? Like how she's often portrayed as if that's her only function in life
This is especially timely during the Gislaine Maxwell trial...how the victim/survivors are portrayed on the stand and how the defense tries to tear them down, then how they are portrayed by the various media and other commentary.
Surprised that you talked about Promising Young Woman, and not The Nightingale instead, which is far superior film that handles the same themes and trope breaking with much more care. Also, you should think about doing a companion video on how Women of color are systematically abused and not believed.
I honestly think the change from labeling victims to survivors is a kind of reframing that ultimately ends up reinforcing the idea that being a victim is bad, or that being a victim is a choice. Like that woman says that she calls herself a survivor because she did not “let it break her down” - as if it did break her down in some way for a time it meant she was too weak or “let” it do so. The point should be imo you can be a victim of a crime and it does not make you lesser or weak. There is nothing wrong with being a victim of something. It’s about not having it define you, or not letting others define you only by that. Victim and survivor mean the same thing really. If you’re alive after the crime, you are a survivor
Laura Palmer got an entire film told from her perspective, same with 13 Reasons Why, same with Kill Bill. I could spend all day listing off films or TV shows that center around a female victim and are told with her voice and from her perspective.
@@thepinkestpigglet7529 But what happened to them is the basis for the show. Both are mysteries and mysteries generally revolve around the victim. That's the nature of the genre, it's not sexist or exploitative. It's not like in a murder mystery, your going to flashback to a random day of the victim folding laundry or doing their banking.
so... all but one of your examples fit very well, except for the twin peaks model. you say Laura is treated and framed as a "puzzle to be solved", however Lauras "puzzle" is not her own lack of character content or agency, the puzzle is about her murder. She is presented as mysterious because everyone is mysterious to a large extent and everyone hides things about their life. If the movie didn't make her one of the most relatable and understandable characters in television I would agree with you guys but the whole show is much more about who Laura was and the people she trusted that lead to her death, in fact there's little to no character development or character arc for any of the character EXCEPT Laura and Dale, and Dales arc begins basically in season 3. great video otherwise I just see twin peaks as much more than a trashy melodrama.
I would argue that Bobby also had quite a bit of character development in _The Return._ It seemed like a lot of the more prominent members of the Horne family also had some development, and I'm not talking about that goofy Civil War arc, which to me was the worst of the original run.
@@wvu05 I totally agree actually, forgot about Bobby coming back as a good person lol but he’s one of the shining stars of the return in my mind, plus it was nice to see the Horne family yeah but I don’t know how much they changed in the show, even Nathan Horne in the second season just has a sudden change of heart with absolutely no explanation lol, but yeah the whole show is surprisingly complex.
@@Bolts_Films I think that Ben had a psychological break once he lost everything except the Great Northern and Horne's Department Store. There are times where he talks about the difficulty of choosing to do good, which at first had me worried that BOB would inhabit him next. So, I think it's mostly being punished for his more untoward activities and wanting to right the ship to rebuild rather than a shift of conscience, which I think is even more compelling.
@@augustosolari7721 People complain about James leaving town and getting involved in the love triangle, but give me that over the Civil War arc any day of the week... even if it means hearing "Just You" at every commercial break ;-)
I disagree with the addition of Laura Palmer in this list; she shone in "Fire Walk with Me". My perception of Laura Palmer did a 180° after watching said film. She also had a beautiful send off.
@@mewesquirrel6720 ***SPOILERS AHEAD ***It's complicated. A story about extremely sheltered sisters (one of which committed suicide) who deal with domineering and suppressive parents who are desperate to "protect" them from the world by never allowing them to truly experience it. They connect with a group of boys that are fascinated by them and begin friendships through sneaking around their parents in various ways. ****SPOILER ALERT**** At some point the girls realize they can't live that way anymore and plan a group suicide for the boys to discover. It's a haunting and beautiful film and I heavily recommend it.
Laura isn't a trope. Either you've not watched the show or you did this to increase viewer engagement. She's empowered, wise, complex, insightful, mysterious and beautiful (inside and out, though not without her faults). She is the most powerful character in the whole show. Even when Coop couldn't resist Bob, she did. She knew what evil he would make her do, he was drawn to her because of her power. She's not a tropey victim. She allowed herself to be murdered to ensure she'd never become enslaved by Bob.
The stereotyped way that people respond to trauma in films and tv needs to be challenged more. As this video says, many people don’t recognise their experience as abuse right away or may not seem outwardly traumatised, which can lead to them being disbelieved when they come forward.
Being a survivor is not only about calling out people, but to call out yourself. It’s so hard to call yourself out without being defensive and it’s something we’re all working on.
I found it increasingly hard to sympathise with Hannah as the show progressed. She doesn't take responsibility for her actions, keeps trying to befriend people who blatantly dislike her, and guilt trips Clay, making him think he's done something worse than he really had. She also convinces herself that she has no other choice but suicide, clearly forgetting her loving parents.
Wasn't that one of the points of the show? That her (or anyone's) suicide, while not her fault, is never the right choice because of the devastating consequences for everyone who knew her and ESPECIALLY not as a form of revenge. Her parents divorce, her mom braks down, her best friends all have mental breakdowns, several of whom try to kill themselves, her audio is a key piece of evidence that lets a known rapist go free and go to another school with a fresh start only to (presumably) start the cycle again.
And she blackmails Tony into passing out the tapes to everybody. I like how season two showed that Hannah wasn't a reliable narrator and had her flaws.
people with depression and PTSD (speaking from my own experience with assault and bullying) don’t always think logically and rationally. that’s kind of the point right? mental illness causes people to behave in a lot of ways they wouldn’t normally behave, and those behaviors are not always lovable. this is part of the stigma of having mental illness. because our behavior, feelings, and the decisions we make aren’t “likable” or “relatable”, we often don’t receive as much empathy as someone with a physical illness would. addicts face this societal stigma as well
I get deppresion can make people act irrationally (i had it myself and comes back time to time) But Hannah is such a weird case.The Clay thing could have been taken as how unreliable she is as a narrator because yes, Clay did nothing bad to her. Am sorry, but she told him to leave and he did as she wanted,i know what is like to push people off and be disapointed they didn't stayed anyway BUT thats not on them
Wait, wait, wait, Mary-Alice Young *was* a complex character, and the show critizes the idealized way in which Bree, Gabrielle, Lynette and Susan used to see her, showing that she was far from being an angel and her life was very different from what they thought it was. And her death serves as a way to show that although all the women on Wisteria Lane LOOK perfect, their lives are not perfect at all.
I still am waiting for Woody Allen to face some kind of consequence due to his creepy abusive way of choosing partners. Eventhough I am not a victim/survivor, the way the victims silenced and discarded by society, still haunts me to this day.
Thank you for all your work! I really wish to see your take on The Wilds - I'm watching it now because you've mentioned it in one of your videos and I'm really confused, not sure what to make of it.
Thank you for your take on Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. I completely agree. I was really disappointed as to how he portrayed her, especially given his early portrayals of female characters. I think he's just aged out of his abilities. It happens quite often.
You are right trauma is something that can take years to recover from I was sexually abused as a child I blocked it out for years until I was 14 years old I'm in my 30s now and there are days I still have flashbacks and the rage and anger comes back I suffered from depression I know I still have years of healing to do
Hmmm it's important to me to remember that I was the victim and am now a survivor. A huge part of what fμ¢ks me up is that "you didn't lock your door/got in my bed/wore those shorts etc" and those are my first memories of life and what his defense was, so I have to remind myself that I was a normal little girl and was not trying to seduce my dad and then my stepbrother. I'm also a survivor but it does define me in a sense because it's always been there. Just wanted to give a different take, food for thought.
There's a documentary called Girl 27 and it does an excellent job of telling the entirety of the survivor's story, before and after. The man who assaulted her isn't given much attention.
the bride doesn't have a "phoenix arc" she was clearly badass before too, after the execution the only difference is that she has lost the baby so she seeks vengence.
This reminds me of the recent survivors who have spoken out against Chris Noth. There seems to be such a strong public support (at least from what I've seen) for Noth, despite the fact that, generally speaking, no one knows him personally. The SATC cast supported the women, and people criticized them for not standing by Noth. I get it might be mentally hard to separate actors from their characters, but they are people and should be held accountable to their actions. It just made me mad and upset to see so many people just automatically take his side. It takes such immense courage for survivors to share their story, especially against a public figure. We should believe and commend survivors and work to raise awareness around rape and IPV vs just trying a blind eye to it. Watching videos like this and teaching and demonstrating to children the importance of consent (like having relatives ask the child if they want a hug vs just giving them one) are great starts.
I am a surviver. I never had the simpaty of anyone. Moreover since I am not afraid of talking, people avoid me as I were contagious. Or think to take their share of me, moking me. Since I fight back they are disappointed.
I don't think it's a vendetta, it's just an example of a film that falls within the trope - this doesn't paint the /entire/ film as bad, it's just saying that this specific representation (across multiple movies) have these specific consequences. Kill bill isn't painted as bad or good, the video is just talking about the specific character trope (you can still enjoy the film and love it, but recognise the limitations of the trope)
the assaults, the crimes, are glossed over, together with the responsables for these crimes and the system that aids this violence. The focus is always on the victims/survivors. How they act, react, cope, how they are perceived, how they SHOULD act. What they should feel. What we think about them. It is absolutely disgusting.
Thanks so much for sharing! Personally, it was very validating to hear another voice saying " hey nuance is here and we can't ignore it. We have to take it in as best we can." thank you.
Chanel Miller's memoir 'Know My Name' is truly phenomenal and I think it should be a mandatory read in school. This comment section is heartbreaking considering how many people experienced sexual abuse and I wish everyone the best ♡
I mean, if you were like me and went to watch Once Upon A Time in Hollywood not really knowing who Sharon Tate was (I'm a European, hi) the character just really felt like a shoe in for a sexy female character who really was nothing more than eye candy. So it feels crazy to me, knowing what i know now, that this is good representation.
It wasn't good representation. That's their point. Tarantino's answer to changing her narrative was to make her an inessential character that barely speaks? This is not the way. And for a director who has given us females like Mia, Jackie Brown, Beatrix, and Shosanna, that's quite a step backwards
Loved this, thank you!! I thought of the movie Jolt while watching this and think it could potentially subvert some of these tropes of victimized women, if even a little. It also could connect to your crazy ex-girlfriend video (also excellent!). I would love to hear an episode on Jolt. I felt like it was more in the female gaze than the male, even if it wasn’t a perfect movie. I also think men tend to like but find flaw in (or “not get”) the movie while women might enjoy it more since it’s more relatable to us. Would love to hear your thoughts via The Take!
"Her character still serves as a catalyst for other characters' development": Well, duh. How do you develop a character that is dead? Flashbacks of course help if the story begins after a characters death, it is normal for alive characters to get more growth. Also, disagree with putting Jessica Jones outtakes in this.
All that fiction referenced and we didn't touch upon the Handmaid's Tale latest series finale where SPOILER ALERT, the protagonist resigns herself and encourages her co-survivors to reject pursuing a path of healing and acceptance and instead embrace a mental prison of constant anger and hatred, devoid of any real reconciliation with the past. I bring this up because it's a disgusting message to survivors of trauma, and it's a disappointing that it's a show where victimization is a core theme and the writers really had an opportunity here to reshape the victim trope into something of resilience, instead they opted for the a perverse reimagining of the "forever damaged" cliche.
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Could you create a video about rape culture in HIMYM series ?
I started to write about it, but I'm not familiar enough with this subject yet , and I thought you could create some great content on this.
"Her trauma hasn't made her stronger, it's something she's powerful in spite of"... well said!
So refreshing to hear something that actually rings true, rather than aspirational. The focus on becoming stronger from trauma implicitly creates a sense of shame from living with the effects of trauma
Everything that's happened to me has made me stronger, that's how you learn, by making mistakes and avoiding them for the next time
@@deborak9075 v people who suffer from trauma aren’t the ones making mistakes. They’re suffering from the mistakes of OTHERS. Your logic doesn’t apply here.
I have noticed that when a woman says she has been abused, everyone expects the abuse to be of a sexual or physical nature. I used to be psychologically abused by my jewelcrafting school's headmaster. When I reported him, I was asked if he sexually assaulted me. After saying he didn't, my complaint was treated as a simple dispute between him and me.
Ugh. Really hope that you're in a better place now tho.
had a similar happening with about my ex, who did a smiring campain for years, so that I became physically sick ... when I went to a place for helping women of abuse, they reacted the same first ... it is, like the law does not support any action, when there is no visual harm ... I hope, You can have peace
I sometimes get confused with psychological abuse and verbal abuse because I feel they look the same.
emotional, mental psychological abuse to me is more destructive than physical. wounds bruises injuries heal in the body. Mindfu%ks last a lifetime
i have spent a whole lifetime wishing and waiting to be hit or sexually touched. i don't even want anything to change, but i dream of him being reported like people would dream of winning the lottery or getting a free mansion. like you don't think about all the complexities, where would your friends and family and job and identity go. but it's easy to escape reality in. the truth is i just want to feel valid and for some reason i feel like i need the world's stamp of approval to say yes i suffered. i still am working through whether i believe it or if i'm just having a hard life and looking for somewhere to place the blame.
I really enjoy revenge films, such as Kill Bill, because it allows for escapism. With how hopeless victims of abuse may feel, especially when dealing with the police, it can be helpful to indulge in revenge fantasy.
While I understand that, surely you agree that a more nuanced view of victims is needed in media. If it’s only every the voiceless perpetual victim or the unrealistic power fantasy revenge story it really still does not paint victims as real people (and revenge stories are so unrealistic that it’s the other narrative that is more internalized by people imo).
@@kstar1489 You can do both. There definitely needs more nuanced representation of victims such as Marie in Unbelievable.
However, as a victim, I actively enjoy watching films like Kill Bill because it takes away the realism from coping after trauma. When it's too realistic, it can be triggering and depressing - especially for those who have experienced abuse and have not had justice for whatever reason.
@@fay4769 I understand that, but I’d imagine other victims would like relating to more nuanced portrayals. But I can understand the enjoyment of a revenge power fantasy, because it can make you feel powerful. But I think there are other portrayals of power that are not so fantastical, if that makes sense. But I understand. Have a good day
I understand what you mean but Stories like Kill Bill where a person is raped/sexually assaulted and it’s never again mentioned bother me because they trivialise the trauma of sexual violence.
That and The Bride didn’t become an assassin just after her trauma. She was one before finding out she was pregnant.
That and I appreciate that she was allowed to be a mother to BB after finding out she was alive
I find that another problem with the survivor super heroine is the sort of pressures it puts on survivors, as if they are dignified only if they show super human strenght, which should be demanded of nobody
@@Chris-rg6nm shut up.
Yes, it makes the survivor feel further shame. The freeze response was there to protect them and they shouldn’t feel as if they responded wrong. It’s the way the system reacts when the brain is trying to process the disbelief of what’s occurring. I have felt shame when males in my life say when we are watching tv how great it is that the victim fought back vs doing nothing. I froze each time and it brings me shame. I’m working on the shame, because we did nothing wrong. The predator did.
@@Chris-rg6nm We're not looking for problems, we're paying attention (as everyone should be) to horrendous problems that are already there. They won't be solved unless we start by paying attention.
We also need to talk about how black women are never seen as victims. Black women are often blamed while the people who harm black women are victimized. The police don’t do anything when it’s a black women who was harmed or even killed and black women don’t have any protection in our own community. Black women are literally being killed and trafficked but nobody cares. I feel like black women often get ignored and our voices are never heard. I was a victim of sexual assault myself. The police did nothing and I was blamed. Even my own family member called me “ damaged goods”.
Firstly: I deep sorry for you.
I'm sorry about your experience.
Jesus Christ. I am sorry this happened to you. And you are right - black women are not given the same protections. But listen to me. You. Are. Not. Damaged. Goods. Please always know that.
I am so sorry this happened to you. As a black woman I am wish we could be SEEN ...
That's absolutely awful, you're not 'damaged goods', you have worth beyond your sexual history. Fyi though, its not just black girls. Its women in general (minorities def have it worse). Rape is a crime you're almost guaranteed to get away with, only 6% of rapes ever result in an arrest and only 1% in felony convictions. Screw these men that commit such crimes and damn to hell those who defend this sexist world. Things are changing, slowly, but for the better. Only 100 years ago, we couldn't even vote. Now we're getting affirmative consent laws.
Hannah Baker wasn’t a completely likable character but the way people mock, demonize and speak about that character, a teenage victim of bullying and rape, is disturbing. Have even heard people say she deserved what happened to her. Although she’s fictional it shows how people feel about real female victims.
There is no such thing as a perfect victim and they are not less deserving of justice or empathy because their personalities and life choices were flawed..
agreed. i've seen so many posts making fun of hannah for being overdramatic and insufferable. hannah witnessed an assault and was assaulted. she killed herself because of that. she's not being a dramatic teen, she is a victim of abuse.
They do the same with every female character that Is not perfect. Instanly demonize her, builly her and discredit all the good points and merit she has.
She doesn't deserve it but her character is someone who seems to like to blame people and not get help
@@mewesquirrel6720 exactly this is what I hate about her character. It never seemed like she actually tried to get help.
@@mewesquirrel6720 about the get help, have you been in a situation of assault or r*pe? If yes, you are very brave. The majority of people living through this didn’t get help because the don’t get taken seriously or the culprit is preferred and receives protection.
We can include race in this as well. I was sexually assaulted in the military. I remember the last two years I had been having issues with my chain of command. Everyone pretty much thought I was a troublemaker because I was very strong willed and spoke up. Needless to say, I had gotten in trouble the beginning of deployment and then the last day of deployment I was sexually assaulted. I wasn’t going to report it because I knew I wouldn’t get help, but a shipmate over heard me telling my best friend and he anonymously reported it. Nothing happened until a white woman said the same had happened to her and during the investigation, they hadn’t decided if I should be interviewed or even taken seriously because of my “record.” That took a very long time even process. I remember hearing some of my shipmates say things like “probably just another hoe mad cause she couldn’t get what she wanted.” The memory loss thing is true because when traumatic things happen you either forget in chunks or remember pieces of things you didn’t think about for a long time. I remembered a particular incident from my childhood and it was definitely hard. It took 7 years for me to be able to cope with it and be sad about it because people would tell me not to talk about it. Or tell me it’s not a big deal it happened and to move on from it. It’s crazy… but I do believe there is a before and after you because it does completely change who you are as a person.
I'm sorry that you had that experience, not just the assault, but the reaction, and not being taken seriously. I'm glad someone reported it, because maybe it prevented it happening in the future. Maybe. I hope going forward, you are believed, no matter how people perceive your personality.
@@DorotaGabal thank you! I really appreciate it. As open as I’ve been about it… it was hard to confront exactly how I felt until I went to therapy. I appreciate your kind words ❤️
UBG, you are the MVP. I have heard and read many reports on sexual assault within the military. I believe you. I used to believe in our military and most of American Police, but now...I just can't. Their empty words and lack of honorable actions are very disturbing to me and many others. (Even as a white girl. Mostly as a female in general.)
Not all enforcement/enforcers are good people...and even a portion of bad apples---no matter how small---can make the entire batch look tarnished and rotten.
I hope you get justice, but our system is imperfect. Arrogant fools, scumbags and miscreants deserve harsh sentences/punishments.
If I was a woman I would stay far away from the military.
I wish you all the best in the world!
Thank you so much for mentioning that survivors don’t magically become stronger after an assault. I was a boxer and did CrossFit. My years of training did not make an appearance when I was assaulted and I’ve been plagued with illnesses from my c-ptsd. Years have passed and I haven’t regained the strength I had. I sure as hell am working towards healing, but it takes such a long time and a courage to face staying in the present. I found myself recalling Judge Persky, the judge who ruled over Channel Miller’s case. I have continued to volunteer with legislation surrounding sexual assault. I am a biopsychology student. I will not give up until I am healed and help other survivors. Sending you all love.
🙏🙏🙏🙏
This trope exists because it's hard to make audiences care about characters that aren't perfect. This says more about viewers than writers imo.
Lol this is so true
I agree. Only the best writers can do that 😉
Right!!
I would suggest watching their take on "Likeable" women. Plenty of male characters have been unlikeable, or downright evil and get a pass. Completely different for women.
@Unboxing Alyss I saw that, I don't disagree with their take, but plenty of male characters are complained about too, in terms of not being likable. A term i find to be kinda subjective in the first place.
As a “victim” of sexual abuse myself, I find it very difficult to talk to both men men and women about my experience. If I speak of it unfazed, then it’s awkward, uncomfortable and TMI. If I speak about how it negatively effects me, then I have a “victim complex” and need to get over it. I feel like women are only allowed to speak of trauma like they’re reciting a testimonial in an inspirational self-help seminar. Sometimes “victims” feel sad and defeated, sometimes they feel like it’s a regular part of their reality… I think it’s harmful how victims of sexual abuse need to keep it hush hush in order to keep status quo. That’s part of why it’s so common.
All of this 💜
It's not really normal to bring up trauma in a casual conversation. It would be uncomfortable for someone to bring up the time they saw their friend drown in a pool, too. That's just the way it is.
Ikr, i feel so sorry for you, and i hope things get better for victims especially w the mainstreaming of movements encouraging people to come out and speak against their abusers. Im so sorry for you, ur feelings are valid, and you deserve to be heard.
Speaking of Monica Lewinsky (who should get her title of Fashion Icon right away), can you speak on The Mistress trope (how she and The Wife are victims of a patriarchal narrative that let's men off while blaming both women for a broken marriage and how women are categorized against one another and how both roles involve emotional labor, how toxic the Ride or Die narrative is for women (in the words of Falco's Hillary, they never prioritize themselves just the relationship which mostly mean just the man), and the Big Beautiful Woman trope (she is an extension of the Bombshell, with the added burden of being limited to her size as well as her proportions, she is a Goddess in one view or is treated badly and disparagingly), also how in the 90s and 00s we saw real women pressured to live up to the Heroin Chic ideal while cartoon women enjoyed a voyeuristic celebration of ample hips, thighs, and butts
Precisely, Monica got the most blame for the affair, despite Clinton also being involved, and the real Monica is an executive producer on the show, so that we get a more authentic portrayal from her perspective, without making her a completely innocent victim.
@@smartass0124 dude what
Clinton was impeached I’d say he got his fair share of the blame
Eh, both parties are to be blamed.
@Dreamy Sheep I'm talking about in general, not the Clinton/Lewinsky scandal.
My father's abuse made me be able to fight back physically and learn how to fight and defend myself however it did not make me some badass hero, in fact made me mentally drained and unwell and 'caused me to be filled with anger and do violent shit for no reason so these movies portraying it as all good is really bad.
I get your point, but ultimately the effect of having few rape-revengers stories *combined* with even-less-still amounts of realistic survivor-positive non-revengers narratives is negative.
.
The hidden-victims-crouching-bad*ss (to borrow and misuse that title) concept is extremely damaging to people who experience freeze or failed-flight, or whose bodily response to the adrenaline-rush of terror + physical stimulation (especially if they're date-rape drugged or 'gentle-raped' aka restrained or threatened but forced to participate and climax) is orgasm.
.
Besides, the revengers stories are never as satisfying when they strip the female of everything she ever was in order to basically turn her into a man-with-boobs (which is to say, they get rid of all of her 'inconvenient' feminine traits and turn her into the emotionless potty-mouthed killer *who's always so smugly right about everything* which they still hold to be the ideal traits and behaviour of successful straight manly-men).
When I was in my 20's (in the late 90's) I was living in L.A and a professional actor. I looked at the breakdowns (casting notices) every day, and nearly every female role called for partial/total frontal nudity and/or a rape scene. Usually both. It hasn't gotten much better.
Prior to "Once Upon a Time in Hollywood", Sharon Tate had *never* been portrayed outside of her death or in a way that wasn't directly linked to Polanski or the growing threat of Charles Manson. It took Margot Robbie, Quentin Tarantino and less than 10 minutes of screen time for the narrative of "Sharon Tate: victim" to shift to "Sharon Tate: human". She *is* portrayed as an innocent, glamorous, joyful woman --- but that is who she was by all accounts, and that depiction isn't to objectify her but it's so audiences can be faced with the fact that she wasn't always synonymous with tragedy. As far as her being portrayed as one-dimensional, I would argue that it's because we are seeing her from the perspective of Rick Dalton, who doesn't know her personally but is aware of her public persona. It isn't a biopic, although Debra Tate (Sharon's sister) has stated she was so impressed by Margot Robbie's ability to capture Sharon with such little material, that she would be her first and only choice to play her in a movie solely about *her* life. That speaks volumes. I do think the overall characterization is on its surface, easily mistaken as one dimensional, but her mere presence in the film is something that's never been done before and it holds such meaning that frankly, I think we're ready for a Sharon Tate biopic to get into how she got to that point in her life.
I loved the scene where goes to the screens of her movie "The Wrecking Crew", interacts with the young lady at the ticket booth and theater manager, and most of all seeing the movie audiences reactions.
"she wasn't always synonymous with tragedy"
The entire movie watching her I felt like I was watching a Shakespearian tragedy, Rick Dalton was going through the movie suffering greatly while all her scenes showed her having so much fun and living the high of Hollywood success so I just assumed at the end they would cross, she meets a nightmare end while Rick ends up on the high of Hollywood success. That was before remembering Tarantino revises history in period pieces. I just felt dread the entire time watching her scenes knowing what was going to happen to her (or what I thought was going to happen based on the actual events).
I guess this beats the hell out of the story that might have been, had she live.... S. Tate, one hot piece of ass that had minimal acting talent, and who fell off the radar after her twenties ended. I.E. the fate of most actresses who aren't masters of their craft
@@MechaJutaro ok redpill
@@IRHasDiabetes911 "Red Pill", only in the sense that these are statical realities. Not just actresses, but actors also. For every DiCaprio, Pitt, or even Woody Harrelson who transitioned from sitcoms to lucrative film careers, there's million more Ian Zierings, Jason Gedericks, and Jaleel Whites
When the word "survivor" started being more commonly used I felt almost obligated to start using it.
But it didn't really change how I felt about myself.
I still felt like a victim, but very quickly I was pressured not to use that word. Especially by other women.
I'm not sure where I fall inbetween the two "victim" or "survivor" now, only that I was changed.
Being a victim, by definition, means being harmed as a result of a crime. A victim is not a label that defines you, it’s just language. If something awful happened to you, and you are victim, you are still a million other things. You still have strength, weakness, courage, kindness. I think trying to deny the word victim only doubles down on the shame that people are made to feel for having being the target of a crime.
That’s not fair that you were pressured to not use a word that you felt depicted your experience. I hope you’re able to find someone to help you through recovery. I’ve finally found a therapist who is helping me through every part of me that felt something in these situations. We’re using internal family systems therapy by Richard Schwartz . I just started ketamine assisted therapy. It’s such a hard road to recovery and there’s so much shame associated with all the feelings. May we all come to realize how we can get help and no longer feel shame for something that we didn’t ask for. The predators are the ones who should be ashamed. And other survivors/victims should not be shaming us for expressing ourselves!
You don't have to use either label
@@thepinkestpigglet7529 Yes.
@@Saavycupcake Yes! The ones hurt should always have the narrative, so they can heal.
It's hard because sometimes those words, victim/survivor work for people. Sometimes they don't. Healing is rarely a straight line, in my experience. It's usually a cycle, & takes time, because it's like peeling off layers from a onion, and each layer is a new revelation, or a deeper understanding or acceptance of what happened & how you responded & who are you now. Sometimes it hurts. Sometimes it makes you cry. Or it makes you feel better.
Or at least that's my experience / based on a lot of stuff I've read.
I don't think victim or survivor fully grasps the whole of the experience?
Maybe there are better words / phrases in other languages? Maybe the word or phrase hasn't been created yet? Languages are living & ever changing after all.
I'm still trying to find the answer.
Here's all the encouragement for healing, however long that takes for you, and whatever shape it makes.
Yes, the predators should be ashamed. But they should also change.
And society, everywhere, needs to change, until "rape" & "sexual assault" become near forgotten, unused words, because they almost never happen.
That's the future I'm working for.
I prefer the word "target" over "victim." it puts the moral judgment where it belongs, on the predator, and not on the prey, while subtly conveying that it behooves people not to broadcast weakness at the watering hole.
I never even thought of it that way... that's a great alternative.
IDK... that kinda makes it sound like a game or a goal.
@Erwin Lii i wouldnt even say it's just the white mainstream media. my family is from mexico so i keep up w what's happening there. the r*pe and femicide of mexican women even by their own media is awful. many victims are purposefully portrayed as promiscuous, prostitutes, or troubled runaways, even though most are just working class women who try to earn money for their families in factories and "clean jobs." it's all just a distraction, for many people who hate women, there is no such thing as a "good" or "perfect" victim. if she is, they will lie and misrepresent her to dismiss the issue
@@keepingitkianatural it is, my dear. It is. At least for them it is.
Good point
Sorry to sound like a broken record and bring up Lady Diana again, but ‘Diana: In Her Own Words’ and audiotapes in her name are riveting not only because it’s her but because she vented her thoughts and complex situation after being monitored for so many years.
Also, most movies always get rid of her fun and lively side we saw in the tales too
*tapes
Can you do a video on the "rebel grandma" character? I'm thinking of Gertie from Hey Arnold or the grandmother in the little red riding hood retell Hoodwinked (2005). The woman who's adventurous and fearless and unapologetic. This character kind of gets to me because this woman is framed as doing what she wants to do because it's only when she's old that she can finally be herself. It's like women can't be wild and free (in a socially acceptable way) until they're 80. "Just let grandma do her thing, she doesn't have a lot of time left."
Also how older women are explored as sympathetic though smothering in "The Mirror Has Two Faces" and "Only the Lonely" where the mothers, played by acclaimed actresses of old Hollywood, face a societal obsolescence being pushed on them despite still feeling lively and how loosening their grip on their kids and traditional values help them grow
Harold and Maude? Do you think Maude was always a free spirit?
@@ruthspanos2532 I haven't seen that, sorry idk
That's an awesome idea tbh
The focus of Hollywood, and even this channel, is about pretty, young, and mostly white women.
I think Aimee in Sex Ed was well portrayed post her experience SA. She wasn't just limited to her trauma nor was her trauma just forgotten like some minor mishap.
Female victims are portrayed as tragic, or perfect because audiences don't like nuanced characters that aren't salt of the earth characters. They don't want relatability, they want likeability. This is less about writers and more about audiences tastes. 🤷🏻♀️
Exactly!!! 💯 general audiences like simplified cool characters. That's why Jon Snow was so popular compared to the other more complex characters.
Are you talking about male audience? They have trouble empatizing with female characters.
@@tanchella nah everyone
I was recently sexually harassed at my old job. And was labeled a troublemaker, because I was scared to report it at first, because I was afraid he’d retaliate. He did anyway. He ran his mouth, turned a friend against me. Immediately afterwards, my supervisor rode me for two months straight about anything and everything. I saw people getting away with the crap, Mr. Schmidt was bustling my balls for. He spied on me, throwing away a good part. ( a lot of people did that too) I called in sick the next day, because working in a foundry requires stamina. I got fired the morning after, as soon as I walked in the door. The same people that didn’t do shit about my boob being grabbed, gave me a little speech about, stealing from the company, and I wouldn’t be getting my last check if I didn’t turn in my uniforms in. I said ‘Yeah, I know.’ And walked out on them. Went straight to the locker room, grabbed all my shit. Saw them lurking in the hallway, and walked out. I’m doing much better at my new job. Got a two dollar raise, and people leave me alone.
This is interesting timing, considering the first two episodes of Hawkeye just came out. I was wondering how they would handle Kate Bishop’s origin story. In the comics, she was sexually assaulted when she was a younger teenager. The show drops that plot point altogether. I think it was a good decision.
I think the show did an amazing job of re-imagining the character. She's inspired by an amazing and overlooked moment from The Avengers. And, the show is named for 2 characters: one who is retiring and another who is just starting.
People (grown man-babys) can complain all they want. But Disney manages the recreation of the heros recently, not falling for their sexist and temper tantrums.
I mean, captain Marvel was creaded for little girls, who needed a súper heroine role model that was not in the background, not entitlled men and teenagers. The girls liked it and the family too, wich were the objetive public.
@@kiriki4558 Ms Marvel was created for little girls and any female readers of comics in general back in the late 60's though of course there weren't many at the time. She was also created to be Marvel's response to Wonder Woman. Captain Marvel on the other hand has only been established in the last decade of mostly poorly and lazily written comics from Marvel as nothing more than an incredibly unlikeable, incredibly selfish, incredibly self righteous, typical modern feminist icon that stripped away everything that use to be likeable, relatable and fun about Carol Danvers when she was Ms Marvel. She is such a horribly unlikeable character that when she killed Iron Man at the end of Civil War II, she showed absolutely no remorse whatsoever. Nobody likes her now, not even most female readers such as myself. Who says little girls and families liked the movie. I highly doubt that it is the case. Other than than her sheer power, there is absolutely nothing for any little girl to takeaway in regards to her character and relatability. They take a lot more from Rey than they would Captain Marvel because there is at least some level of relatability there and she is actually somewhat likeable character played a very likeable actress with a very likeable personality similar to Keira Knightley's. Most audiences and critics thought the film was bang average and forgettable which it absolutely was. Its not a terrible film by any means but the writing of Carol Danvers is horrendous and choosing to go with the unlikeable depiction in the comics over the last decade that nobody likes nor cares about instead of the one who is actually likeable, relatable, fun and most importantly far better, more natural fit for the MCU when she was Ms Marvel was a huge mistake.
@@taliamason7986in a good world, we’d be able to have a wide range of female characters. Likability and relatability are completely subjective, so we can have Rey AND Captain Marvel. It’s ok if captain marvel didn’t work for you. But she did work for me and my daughter, and it gets annoying seeing people assume that “this didn’t work for me” is the same thing as “this is bad”. Not only that, but people tend to dump hate on captain marvel in a way they don’t in other supposedly bad marvel films(say, Thor: The Dark World). Anyone who’s ever left multiple comments about captain marvel but never said a word about dark world should think about why they’re so angry about one but not the other
I love Inej Ghafa. She suffered so much, but she kept her heart, and made herself powerful. She's also more than a superhero trope, she's complex, and we actually see her perspective.
Can you please do a video about how male survivors are often not taken seriously?
The channel "Pop Culture Detective" made a really intense video about how sexual abuse of men is used for cheap laughs.
One of the reasons I love this site is that there are so many sincere and well expressed feelings in the comments which often generates a truly worthwhile discussion! Thanks Debra and Susannah! While we're cooped up from the pandemic we can still engage in lively and interesting discussions which keep our brains and hearts alive.
Also just to chime in, we really want to see people as either victims or abusers but we shouldn't forget that people can be both in different situations, and unresolved trauma can lead to abuse as well.
Like BoJack Horseman?
@@Angela.Perkins lol I was like sure, why would you bring that up specifically tho, and then I remembered my profile pic 😅
@@tess064 lol
Was a victim/survivor of school bullying and harassment in 3rd grade, by both classmates and teachers. But I do not define myself as that. Rather, I have dreams and ambitions to be a writer. With a plan to mock my bullies as characters in my book.
To quote from A Knight's Tale, "I will eviscerate you in fiction"
I love the spirit ! I'm also a survivor of school bullying. It started when I was 7 and ended when I was 15.. Kids and teens can be horrible. So I support you and I hope you'll succeed as a writer !
(Sorry for my bad english.. >
@@Chris-rg6nm Lol, putz
@@Chris-rg6nm you forget the part about HARASSMENT BY THE TEACHERS
@@Chris-rg6nm why must you mock others to build yourself up?
@@Chris-rg6nm There's no acceptional age in bully, Chris. So have fun trying to push people down to go up, because that cycle loves it's member, and I hope you're ready when it comes back to you.
Great topic to touch on! This is something I have never thought about, even as a woman. Crazy how much this victim/survivor narrative saturates our media. Would have loved for you all to touch more on the kind of beauty that garners sympathy. It's unfortunate that many times women who don't look like these stagnant beauty ideals don't even get a victim/survivor story, they're just completely invisible.
I read studies, that say overweight women are more likely to be attacked than others. NOT a reality Hollywood producers (or writers of thrillers) are ready to show their audience. IF the victim doesnt sexually appeal to the powers in the industry, her story isnt told. The end.
🙃
@@moustik31 Wow, that is awful, but honestly makes a lot of sense. It seems easier for predators to attack women that they know nobody is concerned about because she doesn't fit the "type".
Why did you put Laura Palmer in this category?... Lynch went to great lengths to give Laura agency, hence The Fire Walk With Me movie, where Laura truly understands who Is her abuser AND refuses to be possessed by Bob. She Is not a mere plot device, SHE IS TWIN PEAKS.
I feel like Twin Peaks IS a deconstruction of the “she was so beautiful” victim narrative. Yes, she is beautiful and a victim but that’s not all she is!
Precisely, she's even stronger than Cooper. She was selected to become Bob but he couldn't tempt her into being evil, she chose death (i.e. to be murdered) rather than becoming something she despised. She's empowered, wilful, insightful, intelligent and wise. She's complex and doesn't act like an 'angel', but she's unequivocally herself.
@@jaustengirl441 Yes! as it Is a deconstruction of murder mysteries AND soaps!
@@skullsaintdead AND there Is no other way. When cooper tries to turn back time AND avoid her death, it does not work. She cannot be saved by a knight in shiny Armour (or FBI suit) there are More important things at Stake. Also, you cannot change the past.
@@augustosolari7721 Omg yes, I totally forgot about that! I remember watching it about 5 years ago when I was in this depression, thinking 'holy fuck, she's someone worthy of my respect and admiration'. I've remembered that scene where she chooses death over being controlled ever since, she endures rape, molestations, torture, manipulation and yet, she still fights, she remains true to herself! The empowerment in that. Incredible.
I got the coldest chills hearing Kyle Stephens talk about her father…
The disbelief we project onto others is such a reflection of our own denial. That’s why “The Tale” hit home so hard for me. If you can handle the material, it’s such an important film.
So often we don’t understand what’s happened to us until much later, because all we remember are our 14-year-old emotions about what happened, and not the facts and reality. Repainting your past with that harsh truth is very painful.
Disagree with Laura's inclusion in this list, she is an incredibly complex character who is given a voice in FWWM and The Secret Diary.
And in the sequel series a bit.
Laura is a critique of our shallow consideration of victims of violence! She was, as far as I can gather from interviews with Lynch and Frost, a response to how inconsequential violence perpetrated against young women was portrayed on TV. Her death deeply touches every person in town and even upsets our relationship to reality, untangling appearances in response to grief, guilt, sexuality, and friendship.
Everytime I see Laura Palmer my heart still hurts
Laura Palmer's fictional character was based on the murder of Marilyn Monroe and another person who actually was she was laura's age when she was murdered. But she is given a bigger voice in the prequel movie fire walk with me, the missing pieces and The Secret diary of Laura palmer. I understand why they included her in the list but they should have mentioned both the prequel movie, deleted scenes and the book giving her a voice and deeper understanding of what she was fighting against. Especially the book.
@Erwin Lii exactly. this is exactly the issue i have always had with David Lynch. he writes his female characters through a sadistic lens.
I love how Law Order SVU portrays the “survivor” characters. They can be flawed, but they are not the warriors that we see in Kill Bill or films like that. They get help, gradually “move on” from their trauma. No one can move on from this, I know that. However, the characters make sure it does not ruin their lives or take control of them. I think this is a more authentic portrayal of survivors.
Also, like the Take said, not everyone on this show survived even after some tried to.
@@theunknown5386 i think it depends on the character.
For example, I don’t think Olivia walked away from it. Her past will always follow her but she does not dictate who it is.
Some of the people she helps might not be able to follow the same path Olivia has and feel forced to walk away from it.
It is a grey area which this show shows many time.
My friend and neighbor was murdered by her bf on thanksgiving. Then TH-cam recommended this video.. I love you girls from The Take, but this was a personal and tough watch. Her name was Amanda and she didn’t deserve this.
my condolences, take some time to find peace and grieve
thankyou for this episode
I would've loved for Ridley Scott's The Last Duel, almost his "version" of Roshomon to be included.
I guess.. Millennials didn’t want that film included! 😂
@@VeeLondon1449 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
For months after my abuse I thought that it was all I was from that point. I couldn't think or talk of anything else so I tried to escape hooking up with random guys (I always ended up crying and they ran) and drinking a lot. And then the quarentine started and I had no choice other then face myself, every part of me, it was not easy but after so many time alone I realised that I was a hole person before and after that night, just because I was a victim it doesn't mean that the rest of me disappeared. It's not easy, it will never be, but as an actress and writter I hope I can turn my pain into art one day, when I'm ready.
Last Night in Soho, Edgar Wright’s new movie, had an interesting take on the victim archetype. Watch it and you’ll know what I mean. It was probably wise for Edgar to co-write the movie with a woman.
I loved the film so much. It was everything.
I really hate it. It turns the victim into a maniac psychopath, an evil person and ultimately the purpose of the main character was to "save" the one that abuse her. I've seen it like a male fantasy, like Carrie (I hate Carrie, really using a natural process that happens to half of humanity once a month like a horror plot?).
@@aureliekika her getting her period wasn't the "horror plot" of the movie. Carrie grew up with a fanatically religious mother who constantly abused her, she never had access to sex ed or anything comparable which ultimately led to the mean girls bullying her when she got her first period and was scared and vulnerable because of it. She wasn't bullied because she had her period, she was bullied because she was an outcast, that showed vulnerability in front of people who will exploit it for their own personal fun. This is also quite obvious, when they make her prom queen as a cruel prank in order to humiliate her by ruining her dress and appearance in front of the whole school and crushing her illusion of being accepted and liked. It is absolutely fine, that you do not like the movie but calling it a "male fantasy" is just straight up wrong, so please don't throw around these terms when they do not apply.
@@Max-sz9ez Tengaar clearly didn't watch Carrie beyond the first 10 minutes. Your analysis and summary are on-point.
Have to agree. The ending really surprised me and the film was fantastic overall.
I can’t stomach Rape Revenge movies. I can’t handle the long rape scenes. I have a friend who’s an actress and she filmed one of those scenes. I saw seconds of it before I couldn’t take it, and those images are burned in my mind.
Same, in my mind i'm always worried about the actress and how they treated her during the filmation.
The directors seem to think they are just toys they can play with instead of a person they should respect and conside their well-being. Those scenes to me are unnecesary, inaccurate and disrespectful not only to survivors, but to all women.
@@Chris-rg6nm shut up chris
@@Chris-rg6nm on second look, never mind. You’ve posted over 600 comments on this channel complaining about it, so I guess you have nothing better to do lol. Carry on I guess
@@kiriki4558 it adds realism to movies it should be in there
Lol this Chris person keeps commenting. This is exactly the sack of poop person who sides with predators and laughs when there are assault jokes. You’re so basic, Chris. Hopefully you have one redeeming quality, but seriously.. do better.
"it almost feels like the most tragic aspect of luaras death was that she was so beautiful" uhh have you seen twin peaks?
very bad example to segue into an otherwise valid point about reducing women, especially victims, to their beauty.
fwwm adds so much depth to Laura's character. to say she is merely the catalyst for the other plot lines is misunderstanding the entire series. Laura literally is the entire heart and centerpiece of the show, despite the show taking place after her death. twin peaks showed that a single victims death can affect an entire town and be the key piece to understanding everything, not just a plot point or murder statistic.
yeah but they only went into detail about the gruesome history of sexual assault and incest in fire walk with me. twin peaks, as great of a show as it was, fell into the trope of reducing her to being this beautiful, mythological personhood who never had agency over her own life or choices.
@@milktoasted (spoilers) her choices re:bob directly lead to her being murdered. i feel she does have agency and her choices to not let bob in add a lot to her character. like shes trying to protect her loved ones and the townspeople from this evil force at the cost of herself
@@milktoasted yeah but it was aired on ABC so it’s not like they could have gone as in depth into her abuse as FWWM or The Secret Diary
I lost so much respect for Blake Lively for working with Woody Allen especially since she's been such an advocate against sexual abuse against children... On another, more important note- this was a very interesting and well-made video!
Not everything is as literal as it looks. She probably has her reasons for working with him.
Woody Allen's case is not as clear and direct to everyone. His current wife never made any allegations or claims against him, she adamantly wants to be with him and she's an adult. The problem is the unnatural circumstances of how they met. The other problem is societal view on it. They're both consenting adult who chose an unnatural course of action.
I'm not condoning their act, I'm just saying it might also be hard for Blake to understand where she stands on the issue.
@@LT-bk3qk She was groomed by him.
The only reasons that she has to work with him is money.
Just because his wife didn't say anything doesn't mean that he is innocent.
I was a victim of physical, emotional, and sexual abuse. Your video helped me understand myself. I’m literally crying. This is my favorite channel. God bless you!
From my own experiance, after suffering from sexual assault and then dealing with the trauma and living with ptsd - it was very dificult for me to view myself as anything other than a victim. My whole identity became that one bad thing that happend to me. However, as months and years went by and i started healing and i started to remember who i was and who i am. I am me and that experiance doesnt define me. But during the period of surviving the trauma it was so overwhealming and difficult to see anything other than trauma when i looked at myself. Looking back at it now, it was a significant step in the journey forward, towards healing
I was 5-6 years old when I was abuse by my grandpa's employee. I kept it at the back of my head for so long that a few years when I saw him in his funeral it came flooding back. I don't know why to this day I never told anyone about it. Is it wrong to say that I feel like didn't need to? What's worst is, what he did to me in the past I sometimes do to myself. I don't know why I do it, I sometimes feel like it's the right thing to do even though it's wrong. I'm afraid to speak up cause I know they'll ask me why I didn't tell them for so long. I've kept this for almost 20 years now
Be strong, be brave. You deserve to be loved.
It would be good if you could talk to a therapist about this. What you’re going through is normal for someone with that experience, and a therapist could really help you process it I think.
Thank you both. Though I don't think a therapist is an option. There's barely a therapist in our community. Plus I have family who's into medical field. Almost all doctors know each other. If I get one most likely they will find out. But it's fine, I feel better now. Though there are set backs. I've manage to work it for almost 20 years so I'd say I'm okay 🙂
@@aliceeve6421 That's good to hear! But just know that there are online resources for therapy too nowadays. Also, patient confidentiality is the first rule of being a therapist, it would literally be illegal to tell anything you say to anyone without your consent.
🙏. I encourage you to get a therapist and talk about it
Putting twin peaks side by side with 13 reasons why is incredibly hilarious. Sooo disrespectful.
Absolutely!
Couldn’t agree more
What do you mean?
This is my most favorite channel on whole wide youtube. Your work is incredible and painstakingly detailed. Huge round of applause!
There have been a lot of things that I was a victim too but I buried those thoughts and feelings so deep that I don't if they're real anymore. It takes a lot to move on.
Omg thank you soooo much for putting Room as an example in this video i have always loooved that movie and it more accurately shows the aftermath of survivors than most movies
Twin Peaks and Laura Palmer’s story is much more than what you’re reducing it to here…
I completely disagree with the POV that “Once Upon a Time in Hollywood” brought any kind of depth to Sharon Tate’s character. Opposite of that, I think it shows her as an ethereal being, innocent-like and completely void of any layers in her personality. I saw her as an object once more and that’s why I don’t like that movie. The only interesting characters are ill intended men
Agree very much! Also, I was really creeped out by the wave of obsession with Sharon Tate that it provoked.
Lynch went back to give Laura her POV in FWWM..
And the Secret Diary too written by Jennifer Lynch
I feel like now that we have accepted victims there is a sort of pressure society puts on them. I’ve been told I need to “make peace with myself”, “stop being angry” and worse “stop victimising myself”. There is a time stamp on how long you can feel like a victim and need to shift onto the survivor narrative. People still judge you and expect you to be perfect and mature about it. You can post on social media but people don’t want to see your life fall apart because of it. If you do you’re “not fun anymore”. There is still so little space held for us. I feel like I’m failing at trauma
You don't have to force yourself to be healed. There is no right way. It's a messy and confusing process.
I would say, listen but also trust your guts. Listen to how you feel and you decide what it means to you.
Yes, I agree. We are an aesthetic age. We don't want to see the ugly. We want to handle things beautifully.
There are so many ugly things. Trauma is plain ugly. We just find reasons to get through it day by day and see what tomorrow brings.
Thank you, The Take. I nearly cried. It’s so poignant and close to my own experience. Even years later, I still am readjusting, growing, crying, and smiling.
I completly love your channel, your deep dives into female tv/movie tropes has made me reflect upon my biased perception of myself and women around me. As a survivor myself, I'm beyond glad that you decided to shed a light into this survivor/victim binary, it is freeing to grow past trauma, however rushing to leave victmhood behind can leave many of our issues unattended. My strenght should not be defined by how quickly I get back on my feet after trauma, neither by how well I can portray a super hero facade. In reality, victims/survivors are everywhere, you can't tell us a part from others, so it would also be freeing to have society not frame our traumas as a impossible to heal wound, a eternal source of pity and darkness, a curse who one can't scape once marked. For the longest I felt like this, marked as less than.I did not wanna share my story fearing to recognize myself as a doomed creature, but once I spoke my healing path became clearer, and less lonely. I hope if someone who went trough the same is reading this comment and is reluctant to seek healing, as the take said it, it is only the beggining of your journey, you'll have such wonderful things to experiment once you get to know and forgive yourself for what trauma made you do. I hope this was heartwarming for anyone who took the time to read.
OUT ARGUE BAD NARRATIVE IN HEAD
The different types of abuse need to be taught more. It's took two years for me to realize what happened to me bc of my therapist giving it a name.
When I told my family what happened (I'd been inappropriately touched when I was 10 by someone I was supposed to trust with my life), their disbelief and dismissal contributed to my depression and suicide plan - more so than the actual event.
Being believed was crucial for me, but another 14 years on, the lack of acknowledgement is something that still creates a wedge between myself and those loved ones most important to me.
Even in a relatively mild incident such as mine, recovery is still an ongoing process 18 years later.
There is not deadline for recovery.
But, in my experience, the process is worth the effort.
I'm sorry to hear that. It really hurts when the person you want to be there for you just isn't. They shouldn't have just dismiss you. They should try to understand your memory. They should have just sat down and listened and be there with you.
I have so much sympathy for you. I wouldn't know how to go through it alone. But live for you. I promise that there are good people somewhere out there. It takes time to find them and once you found the perfect support or people you can trust and be comfortable with. Life will be sweet.
Just have hope. Give things a try. Because Life has deadline too, so we try and try to find that small glimpse of light and love.
@@LT-bk3qk Thank you! These are much kinder words than I was expecting! In the 18 years since, I've actually had a great life. It's taken awhile to address the memories, and there are some people in my life who may never really apologize for their role in what happened. But I've gotten to the point of being enough for myself so I don't need their understanding or apology. It really helps to realize one's become the kind of adult they needed at the age they were mistreated.
I hope you are having a good life as well and that there are many people in your life who appreciate your remarkable empathy!
Spoilers I suppose for twin peaks the return
Laura was deliberate commentary on these tropes, and ultimately everything to do with her death onwards was undone. The emotional climax of that series was Cooper saving her.
Victimhood doesn't define anyone... *they define themselves* ♡ Chanel Miller is so inspirational... btw can you do the "hot girl" trope? Like how she's often portrayed as if that's her only function in life
Is it different from the Bombshell?
they made a video on the cool girl trope, it overlaps with the hot girl a lot
This is especially timely during the Gislaine Maxwell trial...how the victim/survivors are portrayed on the stand and how the defense tries to tear them down, then how they are portrayed by the various media and other commentary.
Surprised that you talked about Promising Young Woman, and not The Nightingale instead, which is far superior film that handles the same themes and trope breaking with much more care. Also, you should think about doing a companion video on how Women of color are systematically abused and not believed.
I honestly think the change from labeling victims to survivors is a kind of reframing that ultimately ends up reinforcing the idea that being a victim is bad, or that being a victim is a choice. Like that woman says that she calls herself a survivor because she did not “let it break her down” - as if it did break her down in some way for a time it meant she was too weak or “let” it do so. The point should be imo you can be a victim of a crime and it does not make you lesser or weak. There is nothing wrong with being a victim of something. It’s about not having it define you, or not letting others define you only by that. Victim and survivor mean the same thing really. If you’re alive after the crime, you are a survivor
Laura Palmer got an entire film told from her perspective, same with 13 Reasons Why, same with Kill Bill. I could spend all day listing off films or TV shows that center around a female victim and are told with her voice and from her perspective.
Ok now name one not about the bad thing that happened to her
@@thepinkestpigglet7529 But what happened to them is the basis for the show. Both are mysteries and mysteries generally revolve around the victim. That's the nature of the genre, it's not sexist or exploitative.
It's not like in a murder mystery, your going to flashback to a random day of the victim folding laundry or doing their banking.
The image around 57 seconds is Gaslight (1940) not the 1944 Hollywood remake with Ingrid Bergman
Awesome! Another great episode keep up the great work!
@@Chris-rg6nm yeah they did an episode over amy dunne
I am just awed by your content... It's like my inner sound is finally finding it's voice, tone and words.
so... all but one of your examples fit very well, except for the twin peaks model. you say Laura is treated and framed as a "puzzle to be solved", however Lauras "puzzle" is not her own lack of character content or agency, the puzzle is about her murder. She is presented as mysterious because everyone is mysterious to a large extent and everyone hides things about their life. If the movie didn't make her one of the most relatable and understandable characters in television I would agree with you guys but the whole show is much more about who Laura was and the people she trusted that lead to her death, in fact there's little to no character development or character arc for any of the character EXCEPT Laura and Dale, and Dales arc begins basically in season 3. great video otherwise I just see twin peaks as much more than a trashy melodrama.
I would argue that Bobby also had quite a bit of character development in _The Return._ It seemed like a lot of the more prominent members of the Horne family also had some development, and I'm not talking about that goofy Civil War arc, which to me was the worst of the original run.
@@wvu05 I totally agree actually, forgot about Bobby coming back as a good person lol but he’s one of the shining stars of the return in my mind, plus it was nice to see the Horne family yeah but I don’t know how much they changed in the show, even Nathan Horne in the second season just has a sudden change of heart with absolutely no explanation lol, but yeah the whole show is surprisingly complex.
@@wvu05 the civil war Arc was weird even in the context of twin PEAKS.
@@Bolts_Films I think that Ben had a psychological break once he lost everything except the Great Northern and Horne's Department Store. There are times where he talks about the difficulty of choosing to do good, which at first had me worried that BOB would inhabit him next. So, I think it's mostly being punished for his more untoward activities and wanting to right the ship to rebuild rather than a shift of conscience, which I think is even more compelling.
@@augustosolari7721 People complain about James leaving town and getting involved in the love triangle, but give me that over the Civil War arc any day of the week... even if it means hearing "Just You" at every commercial break ;-)
I disagree with the addition of Laura Palmer in this list; she shone in "Fire Walk with Me". My perception of Laura Palmer did a 180° after watching said film. She also had a beautiful send off.
Is "the virgin's suicide" a victim movie??
Absolutely
What's that movie about anyway?
@@mewesquirrel6720 ***SPOILERS AHEAD ***It's complicated. A story about extremely sheltered sisters (one of which committed suicide) who deal with domineering and suppressive parents who are desperate to "protect" them from the world by never allowing them to truly experience it. They connect with a group of boys that are fascinated by them and begin friendships through sneaking around their parents in various ways.
****SPOILER ALERT****
At some point the girls realize they can't live that way anymore and plan a group suicide for the boys to discover. It's a haunting and beautiful film and I heavily recommend it.
Laura isn't a trope. Either you've not watched the show or you did this to increase viewer engagement. She's empowered, wise, complex, insightful, mysterious and beautiful (inside and out, though not without her faults). She is the most powerful character in the whole show. Even when Coop couldn't resist Bob, she did. She knew what evil he would make her do, he was drawn to her because of her power. She's not a tropey victim. She allowed herself to be murdered to ensure she'd never become enslaved by Bob.
The stereotyped way that people respond to trauma in films and tv needs to be challenged more. As this video says, many people don’t recognise their experience as abuse right away or may not seem outwardly traumatised, which can lead to them being disbelieved when they come forward.
Being a survivor is not only about calling out people, but to call out yourself. It’s so hard to call yourself out without being defensive and it’s something we’re all working on.
I found it increasingly hard to sympathise with Hannah as the show progressed. She doesn't take responsibility for her actions, keeps trying to befriend people who blatantly dislike her, and guilt trips Clay, making him think he's done something worse than he really had. She also convinces herself that she has no other choice but suicide, clearly forgetting her loving parents.
Wasn't that one of the points of the show? That her (or anyone's) suicide, while not her fault, is never the right choice because of the devastating consequences for everyone who knew her and ESPECIALLY not as a form of revenge. Her parents divorce, her mom braks down, her best friends all have mental breakdowns, several of whom try to kill themselves, her audio is a key piece of evidence that lets a known rapist go free and go to another school with a fresh start only to (presumably) start the cycle again.
Same, I couldn’t sympathize with Hannah. She didn’t take accountability for her actions and just blamed everyone around her.
And she blackmails Tony into passing out the tapes to everybody. I like how season two showed that Hannah wasn't a reliable narrator and had her flaws.
people with depression and PTSD (speaking from my own experience with assault and bullying) don’t always think logically and rationally. that’s kind of the point right? mental illness causes people to behave in a lot of ways they wouldn’t normally behave, and those behaviors are not always lovable. this is part of the stigma of having mental illness. because our behavior, feelings, and the decisions we make aren’t “likable” or “relatable”, we often don’t receive as much empathy as someone with a physical illness would. addicts face this societal stigma as well
I get deppresion can make people act irrationally (i had it myself and comes back time to time) But Hannah is such a weird case.The Clay thing could have been taken as how unreliable she is as a narrator because yes, Clay did nothing bad to her. Am sorry, but she told him to leave and he did as she wanted,i know what is like to push people off and be disapointed they didn't stayed anyway BUT thats not on them
How could you put laura in this list?!
Wait, wait, wait, Mary-Alice Young *was* a complex character, and the show critizes the idealized way in which Bree, Gabrielle, Lynette and Susan used to see her, showing that she was far from being an angel and her life was very different from what they thought it was. And her death serves as a way to show that although all the women on Wisteria Lane LOOK perfect, their lives are not perfect at all.
I still am waiting for Woody Allen to face some kind of consequence due to his creepy abusive way of choosing partners. Eventhough I am not a victim/survivor, the way the victims silenced and discarded by society, still haunts me to this day.
Thank you for all your work! I really wish to see your take on The Wilds - I'm watching it now because you've mentioned it in one of your videos and I'm really confused, not sure what to make of it.
Thank you for your take on Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. I completely agree. I was really disappointed as to how he portrayed her, especially given his early portrayals of female characters. I think he's just aged out of his abilities. It happens quite often.
I cant belive you didn't include Susie Salmon from Lovely Bones.
Edit: aah she did not "survive" in a way but she still tells her own story.
You are right trauma is something that can take years to recover from I was sexually abused as a child I blocked it out for years until I was 14 years old I'm in my 30s now and there are days I still have flashbacks and the rage and anger comes back I suffered from depression I know I still have years of healing to do
Hmmm it's important to me to remember that I was the victim and am now a survivor. A huge part of what fμ¢ks me up is that "you didn't lock your door/got in my bed/wore those shorts etc" and those are my first memories of life and what his defense was, so I have to remind myself that I was a normal little girl and was not trying to seduce my dad and then my stepbrother. I'm also a survivor but it does define me in a sense because it's always been there. Just wanted to give a different take, food for thought.
Uhhh I'm so dumb, didn't get to the later part where they address that... sorry- should have waited till the end before commenting
There's a documentary called Girl 27 and it does an excellent job of telling the entirety of the survivor's story, before and after. The man who assaulted her isn't given much attention.
the bride doesn't have a "phoenix arc" she was clearly badass before too, after the execution the only difference is that she has lost the baby so she seeks vengence.
This reminds me of the recent survivors who have spoken out against Chris Noth. There seems to be such a strong public support (at least from what I've seen) for Noth, despite the fact that, generally speaking, no one knows him personally. The SATC cast supported the women, and people criticized them for not standing by Noth. I get it might be mentally hard to separate actors from their characters, but they are people and should be held accountable to their actions. It just made me mad and upset to see so many people just automatically take his side. It takes such immense courage for survivors to share their story, especially against a public figure. We should believe and commend survivors and work to raise awareness around rape and IPV vs just trying a blind eye to it. Watching videos like this and teaching and demonstrating to children the importance of consent (like having relatives ask the child if they want a hug vs just giving them one) are great starts.
I am a surviver. I never had the simpaty of anyone.
Moreover since I am not afraid of talking, people avoid me as I were contagious. Or think to take their share of me, moking me. Since I fight back they are disappointed.
Please do eating disorder trope
ohh that would be so interesting
Idk what these people’s vendetta against Kill Bill is. We can have bad-ass movie survivors and realistic portrayals too.
I don't think it's a vendetta, it's just an example of a film that falls within the trope - this doesn't paint the /entire/ film as bad, it's just saying that this specific representation (across multiple movies) have these specific consequences. Kill bill isn't painted as bad or good, the video is just talking about the specific character trope (you can still enjoy the film and love it, but recognise the limitations of the trope)
Why did Hannah die that way? The ending really made me dislike the movie, but in the end, I love the movie. Sigh. I'm complicated...
the assaults, the crimes, are glossed over, together with the responsables for these crimes and the system that aids this violence. The focus is always on the victims/survivors. How they act, react, cope, how they are perceived, how they SHOULD act. What they should feel. What we think about them. It is absolutely disgusting.
Thanks so much for sharing! Personally, it was very validating to hear another voice saying " hey nuance is here and we can't ignore it. We have to take it in as best we can." thank you.
Amazing video today, what a closure! Thx
Beautiful video, great work!
13 reasons why was based on the book but it’s sad how Hannah died
Chanel Miller's memoir 'Know My Name' is truly phenomenal and I think it should be a mandatory read in school.
This comment section is heartbreaking considering how many people experienced sexual abuse and I wish everyone the best ♡
This episode hit me way harder than expected 😭
I love the take; always delivering such smart analysis and much needed conversation involving women's issues. Thank you for your continued efforts!
I mean, if you were like me and went to watch Once Upon A Time in Hollywood not really knowing who Sharon Tate was (I'm a European, hi) the character just really felt like a shoe in for a sexy female character who really was nothing more than eye candy. So it feels crazy to me, knowing what i know now, that this is good representation.
It wasn't good representation. That's their point. Tarantino's answer to changing her narrative was to make her an inessential character that barely speaks? This is not the way.
And for a director who has given us females like Mia, Jackie Brown, Beatrix, and Shosanna, that's quite a step backwards
You don't know Charles Manson?
In Scream, Sydney went from victim to survivor to hero. Victims do exist.
Loved this, thank you!! I thought of the movie Jolt while watching this and think it could potentially subvert some of these tropes of victimized women, if even a little. It also could connect to your crazy ex-girlfriend video (also excellent!). I would love to hear an episode on Jolt. I felt like it was more in the female gaze than the male, even if it wasn’t a perfect movie. I also think men tend to like but find flaw in (or “not get”) the movie while women might enjoy it more since it’s more relatable to us. Would love to hear your thoughts via The Take!
"Her character still serves as a catalyst for other characters' development": Well, duh. How do you develop a character that is dead? Flashbacks of course help if the story begins after a characters death, it is normal for alive characters to get more growth.
Also, disagree with putting Jessica Jones outtakes in this.
All that fiction referenced and we didn't touch upon the Handmaid's Tale latest series finale where SPOILER ALERT, the protagonist resigns herself and encourages her co-survivors to reject pursuing a path of healing and acceptance and instead embrace a mental prison of constant anger and hatred, devoid of any real reconciliation with the past.
I bring this up because it's a disgusting message to survivors of trauma, and it's a disappointing that it's a show where victimization is a core theme and the writers really had an opportunity here to reshape the victim trope into something of resilience, instead they opted for the a perverse reimagining of the "forever damaged" cliche.