I think we are at a transitional stage for Brompton TBH. With the introduction of the new triangle and the new 4 year derailleur, they basically opened the way to introduce the new internal gear hub. Having so many Bromptons with the old triangle and hub (BWR) the new hub I think slowly will replace the old triangles to all the lines and at the end there will be only 4 derailleur gears or 3x4 = 12 gears. From now on there will be fine tuning on the new derailleur. I haven’t tried the new 12 speed, but being a 6 gear BWR user since 2008, I think the concept of gearing to the new system won’t be as a -1/+1 -2/+2 -3/+3 but more like a bike with a 3 rings on the front. There will be some intermediate gears crossover but at the end it will give a big option. I think they are looking into making 1 bike to rule them all. TBH I have been more than happy on my daily commute, longer day trips, running errands etc with the 6 speed BWR with -12% gearing and recently with slightly more reduced (40t chainring instead of 44) that I am not sure if I would jump to make an upgrade to the new system, unless I gave it a try first. Good review as always, keep up the good videos coming!
Great comment and hit all points! I completely endorse this comment and also just received a 40t chainring for my upcoming hilly sportive. Thanks for watching
Agree with much of what you say. For nearly 30 years I have commuted and toured, on two dozen Bromptons, in Canada and much of Europe. My current tourer is an old-style lightweight Ti, with P bars on an S stem, 6spd BWR, 13-18 rear sprockets and a 40T chainring ie 24 to 80 gear inches, albeit in uneven steps. An even greater gear range sounds good, but I definitely do not want a rear mech and a rear hub-gear when I’m touring, and even with a 40T chainring it does not seem that the 12 speed would gain at the low end. When you’re travelling with luggage, Low is generally good and Lower is Better.
I'm a committed roadie and bought a C-line explore 6 speed on the cycle to work scheme and was frankly amazed at how high top gear was and the huge gaps between all the gears ! Seems bonkers that they don't come with a 44 tooth chain ring, which many users appear to change to after purchase. In my opinion that would make it more flexible than offering what to my mind is an overly complicated and unnecessary 12 speeds, unless you are full on tourer.
Well said and share a very similar option. I reckon they sell it with a 50t cause most its business is done in London where a 44t may be a little under powered for the flat terrain. Solution allow customer who purchase new to opt for the ring of choice 🤷🏻♂️
Fully agree - the 50t is makes little sense to me. For the top end I feel it‘s too quick for a brompton anyways and the low end robs any fun on commutes with a few hills
I have been waiting for the 12 speed P line for months, and I bought it the very day of its release. I must say I love this bike. I admit I am not new to cycling (quite the opposite). So you’re probably right : not exactly a bike for newbies. But gosh, what a fantastic little bike! Small precision : I intend to use this bike for touring and more traditional commuting.
One BIG Rohloff plus?: The gear indexing is INTERNAL within the hub! Hugely most simple, versus complications of external cable-adjustments, to optimize gear selecting!!! Internally indexed Rohloff WITH Belt Drive!!!!! OH.., YEAH!
I love the 3 speed hub. I don’t have to clean it, I don’t have to think about it. It works year round in all weathers and once or twice a year I turn the indicator chain a turn or two to tension the couple of millimetres of chain stretch. It is absurdly robust and trouble-free. There’s a lot to be said for keeping gearing a bit of a puff on the hills, it keeps us fit. Give someone more and more gears and they’ll get lazier and lazier. I’m approaching retirement and can see myself wanting more gears eventually, but it will be a hub courtesy of out Scottish expert 🙂
I’ve been told by a Brompton dealer that there is no plan to offer an upgrade package for the 4 speed Pline at present. So I’ve opted to upgrade to a 6 speed H&H system. Not quite the same range but one system with one shifter (not much additional weight) and I can go up hills now!
@@HolgerNestmann Yes, Its kind of the same but kind of different. Brompton 12 speed, internal hub gear ratio is much more spreaded away from each other. Trys to avoid overlapping of gears
@@joyousland That‘s fair. One still gets the overlap of the smallest and largest sprocket but thats it. So you have 10 effective gears. On a 3x7 a quick google search said one has about 15 effective gears: There is still more overlap on the different chainrings. I still believe that is a good way to explain it to cyclists - and frankly as a dumb kid I didn‘t have problems understanding a 3x6 (besides boasting about having 18 gears) edit update on brompton effective gears
I did the math: A Brompton with a 40T front chainring, 11T sprocket and Shimano Alfine 8 speed would do exactly the same as a 6 speed Brompton, 306% gear ratio, 30,7 to 94 gear inches. Would be a superior setup.
I am an avid Brompton user but agree: 12 speed is too complicated.Even the 6 gear is overly complicated. I've also built a P-line clone with 5 speed deralireur and the simplicity of the system with only one shifter to control the hole system is superior. A Rolhoff-style sollution would be ideal. Even a 8 speed Shimano Alfine would work given the right internal spacing of gears.
@@shalakabooyaka1480 That's very expensive. My price estimates: Factory spec Brompton under 2k, Rohloff 1,5k, new stainless steel rear triangle 1k? Work 1-2k??
Thanks for all the comments and input. Expensive but as you say ultimate folding build for sure, don't get much better with something like a pricey carbon seat post, cracks or bars.
@tdgdbs1 Any issues with the 5 speed hub fitted to standard rear triangle? I've heard from ex-B engineer that the 5sp hub is a very tight fit. Yes, I too dream of my B being a belter.
I had a 3 speed C line for 4 years before I past it down to my daughter. Served me well as a tucker. Fit right in the footwell of my passenger seat. If I were to buy another it would be a 6 speed. My only beef with Brompton is the proprietary parts unfamiliar with most bicycle mechanics. Other than that, great product.
I have the standard 6 speed, and honestly I don't do the stop pedaling/keep pedaling thing because no one ever told me about it. I just let up on the pedals a bit, and it works fine. I even shift both sides at once, shifting to a higher hub gear and a lower cog at the same time. That gets to the next highest ratio in one step. Then I shift only the cog to go up one step. Cog, both, cog, both, cog, bottom to top gear. Reverse the procedure to step down. I honestly thought that's what everyone did. Maybe my hub won't last quite as long, but it's effective. With the 12 speed setup, that won't work because the ratios overlap. If they would just give me three cogs, and three hub gears, with no overlap, I'd be happy. Haven't modders have been doing it for years?
I literally didn't know any different. With the 12 speed, that sequence would make it shift the opposite way in certain places, if I am interpreting the charts correctly. I would not enjoy that.
There are a lot of options but only for some. Here in Finland the Brompton scene is basically non-existent. I have seen someone ride a Brompton maybe once or twice. So the whole lineup is not available here. I'd really like the A-line Brompton but they won't import it. So it is really unfortunate that Brompton has a strict policy on selleing Brompton products abroad. I understand why that is but I really don't want the 6 speed and I don't want to pay 550€ for mudguards and front attachment block. That's the difference, 1100€ for A line and C-explore is 1650€. I'd save so much by buying A-line and fitting the mudguards myself.
Sounds cheaper to have a holiday in the UK and just take one home with you 🤣. Fell spoilt that I can test ride any one them with a days notice to a store.
I got the T line 4 speed end of last year, and the 12 speed came out a month after I bought it! Was tempted to convert, but to be honest the efficiency in anything other than the 2nd direct drive on the rear hub is pretty poor compared to just the derailleur... Also since having it I have ridden the 4 speed over similar very hilly courses and the 4 speed plus walking up 1 in 5 hills my speed is similar to my multi geared full sized road bike! Why complicate the bike and add unnecessary weight?
I do tend to agree with you on this! The only reason I would get the 12 speed T line is because I own a 4 speed P Line 🤪. I agree also I've had little issues getting my 4 speed p line over hills but Im sure that all comes does to personal fitness and the 12 speed would allow more people to conquer more hills overall. The only other reason I've like it would be for when I'm doing crazy long days in the saddle (not what a brompton is for) and when it hits hour 7 I think I would appreciate the easy gearing 😆
The 6-spd is already complicated enough, and has a very generous range. I have to be going up a very steep hill to use the lowest gear, and going an unsafe speed downhill to spin out on the top gear. The 12-spd is hack job. Due to the overlapping gear, it's maybe 10-spd at best, but the overlap makes shifting even more complicated beyond the left shifter and right shifter. And, the range extension beyond the 6-spd will be very situational (niche). This means the mid-range which will be used most of the time suffers from the overlap. The 6-spd at least has a fairly linear range with a predictable and intuitive gap. Likewise the 2, 3, and 4-spd. The 12-spd....no.
Truthfully I just went for my first BROMPTON test ride and I did feel a little bit of what your talking about :) good breakdown on some primary points !
I have a 20-speed Brompton (4x5), the kit I bought from BrommiePlus. I thought abou the 12-speed but I just bought the P Line a year ago and I don't want to buy another P Line this time just for the 12-speed. Then I saw the 20-speed upgrade kit. I am like a big fan of the SA 5-speed IGH so this is like a no brainer for me. I ordered the kit from BrommiePlus and they got installed on my Brompton a week later. It is the best decision I've ever made.
Great option to install instead and completely rules out the 12 speed. I got a couple of BrommiePlus items to help me with my hilly sportive and plan to fit them soon but just need to decided the best chain to use with them.
So would a 4-speed with an after-market 44t be the best option for riding into and around town, some hills, max distance about 20km? Speccing a T line right now and had thought the Explore would be the right one for me. I'm a road/MTBer, six foot, fit, lower-back issues rearing head recently. Bike will be used in a motorhome in Europe and on road trips in Canada (home).
Yeah you’re certainly on the money! To help with the back I would also personally get it with a high stem. My 4 speed is perfect and the hub also sounds amazing.
Thanks for the video. I can understand your point. What I believe happened lately is that brompton addressed some critisism people had - Gear Range - Weight What they don‘t do is thin out older models ending up with the mess they have. It is even a little sinister that they seem to try to push people to the high cost models as 12 speed is exclusive to the p and t-line AND c-line electric. So the c-line rear triangle is already developed, they just wont give it to us. Imho the 12 speed is not more complicated then the 6 speed, it is even very similar if you consider the smallest and largest cog are new. If you stay on cog 2 and 3 you have practically a 6 speed And this might be a cyclist argument, but it works just like any other 3by drive train Regardless I‘d buy a rohloff or alfine brompton in a heartbeat
For some of us that live in hilly areas (Seattle USA for example) the 12 speed is what we’ve needed from Brompton in order to get more folks on them. The 6 speed is only for folks that like sufferfests at the moment!
I don't get it - paying premium plus for crappy old English Sturmey Archer which was outdated already 45 years ago - either, a light 1x11, or a meaningful internal gearing (Rohloff - yes, pricey and heavy, but reliable, or an Alfine 8).
I definitely agree as it’s the only logical market I can see it for. However I do worry that Bromptons 10kg maximum load and 110kg on the bike might limit people from enjoying touring 🤷🏻♂️
IMHO..Brompton would not have created this 12 speed option had they not had demand for it. If you want to be successful in any business, give your customers what they want. Brompton is adding to their lineup with this configuration, not subtracting from it. I’m 76 and riding an electric P Line I bought last summer. I would have preferred more gears than the 4 offered but I wanted the titanium fork and rear triangle for weight reduction. However, having ridden the 4 speed for an extensive period, I have found it’s adequate…… but not ideal. But for that kind of dough and at my age, adequate doesn’t cut it, so if I have a better choice it’s tempting. And I think the 12 spd is a better choice…..but again that’s for ME! I will likely upgrade to the 12 speed. I’d like some more top end plus a lower gear for climbing, despite the fact it’s an electric bike. Again I’m 76 and fairly fit…… but these darn birthdays are eventually fatal, doncha know! If this new 12 speed turns out to be a dud for Brompton and they’re a tough sell, that model will disappear. It remains to be seen if Brompton is ahead of the curve in this. I’m predicting this bike will be a hit. ( I was hoping to predict this anonymously…….😉……..)
While you are waiting for the upgrade, you could simply change the chainring - I suggest smaller to flatten those hills, but the dare devil in you might prefer larger for more top speed.
@@SimonBrowneNZ Hi Simon…..I considered both, but then got wind of the 12 speed. That upgrade will be a lot more dough I’m sure but I don’t have many expensive habits, so what the hell! I’m in Toronto and I might head down to the ( very good ) Brompton dealer here tomorrow to get an idea of how much. Trouble is, I bought the same bike for my wife at the same time…..so I might have keep my upgrade a secret….😉
I had a T-Line 4 speed on order when the 12 speed was announced. The dealer has given me the option to change to the 12 so I really appreciated this video to gain a little more perspective. I was all geared up for the 12 speed (excuse the pun) until I read it adds almost 1kg to the weight. The T-line is all about lightness and I'm not sure I would use the maximum gearing range enough to want to give up that weight advantage. I'm still on the fence but leaning towards the 4 speed. I can always upgrade later if I feel the need.
Thats the thing. If one compares the 4-speed options of P and T line, the price of weight reduction is 1250 euro per kilo. Adding one 1kg back just like that needs to be thought through. It‘s still the lightest 12 speed, but I would have liked brompton to offer a wider range derailleur for the t-line
It’s a hard choice indeed! I think the 4 speed T line is a solid option. For me personally I’ll get the 12 speed I’m sure but that’s only cause I plan to do crazy and long adventures on it.
Let's say you bought a Brompton T-Line. Would you NOW, 3 months later, buy the 4-speed or 12 speed? Also, how would you customize it? For instance, would you get Hubsmith wheels or Canecreek brakes? Would you modify the cogs and the chainring? I don't like the two different shifters on the 12 speed. I'd rather have 1 rear derailleur with a single chainring up front, maybe 9 speed cogs in the back. Keep it simple. Curious minds want to know what you think? Stay awesome ! ♥
Great questions. I would most likely get a used 4 speed and change rings as needed. Just about to reduce my gearing for a hilly event I have coming up. I’m happy with the brakes but would love a carbon wheel set but not sure I can warranty £1000 for them. Would also love a custom fitted carbon post with built in clamp. You stay classy also 👌
@@TheBromptonGuy What about the front chainring and cranks? Would you get a larger one? I'm just dreaming here but, oooooh, I love the Sturdy Cycles Titanium 3D printed crankset. There are other Sturdy Cycle components that are stunning too. How about this? ...Let's win the lottery.
Brompton should keep it simple. An A line 3 speed with a 39T chainring would give gear inches of 37-50-65. Not a setup for speedy riding, but good enough for the average cyclist who just wants a truly foldable bike with an ability to tackle reasonably steep hills. With fancy, complicated 12 speed setups I think Brompton has really lost their way, and is in danger of rapidly losing the market that Andrew Richie designed his bike for.
Can’t disagree with this at all! I think Brompton have pushed the message so hard that they don’t want people to have to buy a new Brompton every whatever years but then realise they need the business 😂. Which leads to things like this 12speed, ohh people who have less speeds might want to upgrade 🤷🏻♂️
The Brompton 12 speed is for people who already own Bromptons. The two different ways of shifting gears have become 2nd nature to this group. Brompton are offering the internal hub to existing P-line and T-line customers but there’s a weight penalty. They really should have offered a dual chainring IMO for the 4 speed P line and T line
The enclosed hub is one of the things I love about the Brompton. No hassle. I think I'd settle for a better range hub and compensate the weight with Ti and carbon.
I also agree on this. However the people who spent the big amounts (p line and T line) tend to pay a lot of attention to the weight not so much in actual use of the bike but as a bike characteristic and I think Brompton sells a lot of these nowadays !
Roady after switching from MTB. Now considering a Brompton - especially given the gear range, for an upcoming tour v's my original thought of picking up a cross/gravel. I'm going to check out a store today in TW, to learn some more/see if they have this P line 12 speed. Cheers.
They did have them in TW, though I wasn't 100% sure at the time. I'm now in Osaka, JPN as i type this. I went to Loro Cycle Works yesterday, they had the 12 speed in stock. Just waiting for the rear rack to be delivered, from Kobe (tomorrow). They're taking care of some mods - kick stand, ergo grips. Then I should have it by midday, really looking forward to it.
I want to trade my C Line Explore for a P Line Explore. I went to my local Brompton dealer and they're not available in USA til later this year. I'm bringing my Brompton to Japan next month and I really wanted improved range.
Tried the 3 speed but the gaps too big for me. I use a 6 speed which is good but struggling up very steep hills. 12 probably unnecessary for my use. Tourers seem happy 😁 Thanks
What’s the fuss? Don’t you just buy the cheaper Brompton, get an upgrade kit replacing rear triangle, fork and rims/ wheel and change gear set to Shimano external or 11 speed internal, add disk brakes hydraulic and add a dual chain ring with or without derailleurs. You get a better lighter bike. Save the replaced parts or sell to minimize costs you’ll be converting these to carbon.
I don't envy the choice my friend! When I got my Emerald Lacquer the 4 speed was the only option available so was easy to allow colour to be my driven force to pull that trigger and the fact it was limited run made it even easier. That said what you plan to use it for should be the biggest driver and if you feel you'll ride a 12 speed more then colour should take the passenger seat IMO
I'm new to all this but I'm guessing Sturmey-Archer have a contract to supply Brompton with hubs? Maybe it was too painful to break that and go with the Rohloff so they came up with this compromise instead. I'm very disappointed because I was really thinking about getting one but I don't think I'll bother now. Great video.
Sturmey archer might be fine for UK users, but anyone else would want to stay away from that brand due to brexit. I ended up with a hub in need of maintenance, had to replace a spring that's a 3£ part, and I paid about triple due to customs and shipping. That's just reducing the economic viability of this option. Also, the range even on a nexus 3 gear is better, and I believe they are easier to work on. They really should have used a better hub, nexus 8 or alfine 11 would be great options without complexity. "Just back of a little bit when pedalling hard" would be all the additional briefing a noncyclist would need after "1 is easy, 8/11 is hard."
I have 4 speed P line lunar ice a month ago before they release the 12spd. Shall i sell the 4spd n get myself a 12spd? Any big difference in terms of performance? Tbh i also just modded mty lunae ice & changed to hollowtech carbon crankset
Carbon crankset!! very nice but so costly. I want my carbon wheel set before crack set 🤪 No major difference IMO I wouldn't sell my p line for the 12 speed personally as I feel the 4 speed p line is perfect for what I use it for (apart from its sketchy shifting from time to time)
Also ... ich war kurz davor ein 12-Gang-Brompton zu kaufen ... Ich dachte mich schon immer, dass diese Technik der Schaltung - mit Ketten- UND Nabenschaltung - seltsam, ja komisch ist .... Und dann noch : einmal treten, dann wieder nicht treten ... Das ist mir als Laie zu kompliziert !! Ja, warum nicht eine Rohloff-Schaltung: alles in eine Nabe rein! ?? Einfach fahren können ist für mich das Wichtigste ... das Falten steht nicht an erster Stelle .. Ich weiß nicht wie realitätsfern die Ingenieure bei Brompton inzwischen geworden sind ... So eine Technik wünscht sich doch kein Käufer ! ... Tja, was tun ? .. denn das 4-Gang ist mir dann doch zu wenig an Gänge ! ... ich lebe in einer bergigen Gegend ... Aber wie man auf so eine Idee kommen kann, so eine nervige Technik zu verbauen ... Brompton kennt scheinbar in seinem Elfenbeinturm nur noch die Forderungen seiner unbedingt ergebenen Fans, die einfach alles kaufen wo "Brompton" drauf steht !? Ich hätte sehr gerne ein Brompton .. und bräuchte auch ein 12-Gang ... aber diese nervtötende Schalterei .. das werde ich mir dann wohl doch nicht antun .... So... I was about to buy a 12-speed Brompton... I always thought that this gearshift technology - with derailleur AND hub gears - was strange, even strange.... And then: Step once, then don't step again... That's too complicated for me as a layman!! Yes, why not a Rohloff circuit: everything in one hub! ?? Being able to drive easily is the most important thing for me... folding is not the first priority... I don't know how out of touch with reality the engineers at Brompton have become... No buyer wants technology like that! ... Well, what to do? .. because the 4-speed doesn't have enough gears for me! ... I live in a mountainous area ... But how could someone come up with such an idea to install such an annoying technology ... In its ivory tower, Brompton apparently only knows the demands of its absolutely devoted fans, who simply buy everything where it says “Brompton”!? I would really like a Brompton... and would also need a 12-speed... but this annoying switch... I guess I won't put myself through that after all... (Sorry for this Google-English ... )
The google translate was very welcomed and read fairly well to be honest (I hope this translates back well also). We share pretty much the same feelings and assume they don't partner will Rohloff because there would have to mark the price up so much more it would make it seem ridiculous to any consumer.
I was almost there… but the skit went too “technical” from the outset (context being the Brompton store vs another Brompton retailer) IMO. I’d see the discussion more like: Customer: I’m looking for a bike Brompton Shop: Sure. Are you looking for something to bop around town, or for longer trips? (Customer gets usage filter first that matches with Urban and Explore lines) BS: ok great. Were you looking at an ebike, or a non-ebike? (Customer gets filter next on mode) BS: Ok great, last question. Did you have an upper limit you were looking to stay away from spending? (By this point, you are down to no more than 4 trim lines, and got sufficient info about how they want to ride to prescribe handlebar and bag options) In the above, the 12 speed fits quite well. One doesn’t have to know much, nor does the “do you know about custom builds” needs to come in. Your clip of the Brompton CEO is indeed right. But, I think your skit went too far towards bits a decent sales person would avoid. Not to say that some don’t do exactly as your skit. But, Brompton’s lineup filters quite nicely on the three questions I’ve noted. And as such, makes the case easily for the 12 speed and whatever other factors the customer considers. Digging your channel… I never comment this much. Keep up the solid content 🫡
Thank you for the in-depth comment my friend and all very very valid. The skit was certainly over the top and have no doubt its done the way you have outlined above. However I do feel a customer would get a shock if that is there first bike in a while. Thanks of supporting the content 👌🏻
Brompton should have developed a 6, 8, or 10-speed hub, the derailleur adds weight & complexity. And there are too many Brompton models, what is the point of the P-line? And over £4,000 on a bike which lacks disc brakes is OTT. Brompton are trading on the goodwill of the past.
Sturmey-archer already has a 6 and 8 speed hub Brompton could buy off the rack. They just refuse to bite into the huge profit margins they make per bike so instead have saddled us with a bodged and heavy dual derailleur/hub system because it's cheap.
Seems less than idealistic to contend with both crankset and hub traditional derailers/cassettes on a folding bike! Rohloff hubs are INTERNALLY INDEXED! Two Rohloff hubs here on my Hase Lepus delta planform trikes (70Y.O. senior here with limited mobility/no balance). Internal gear indexing on a folder is literally over-the-top in logic! Once a Rohloff, never again a cassette. No affiliation here.
THANKS A LEAST YOU WERE HONEST...........AS FOR ME I AM OFF TO CHINA FOR ONE OF THOSE CHEAPER (LEGAL COPIES THAT WILL LAST ONLY A COUPLE OF YEARS, FUNNY I CAN SEE THE COVENT GARDEN STORE FROM HERE, WOULD LOVE TO STEP IN & LOOK ABOUT BUT DO NOT WANT MY MIND FRIED.
@@TheBromptonGuy I've been watching the outlander series where James speaks in a similar accent and I just recognized it. The celtic accent is indeed very distinguishable, specially for me who learnt english as a second language focused on the american accent.
Does a Brompton really need 120 inch top gear? That is very high. I don't even have that on my full size gravel and touring bikes! Bottom gear also seems like a missed opportunity. Something closer to 20 inches rather than 30 would be much better as a granny gear. I guess users will be changing to a smaller front chainring to get the gearing more realistic.
Thats a problem with all brompton options. If I were to have a brompton store, I would install 44t on all bikes instantly - having a demo bike with such a high granny gear is offputting
Indeed! That’s what I do for events is just change the front ring down to a 40t. Yeah lowers my AVG speed a little and my max speed sucks on minor descents but I always see my sportives as marathons and not sprints
Initially thought 12 speed would be superfluous for electrifying, but after testing 12, 6 and 4 electrics, the 12 was brilliant! Electric on the lowest gears was awesome on the flats getting up to and maintaining 15.5mph
Great video with good explanation, glad you put the Rolloff scenario within the video, as mentioned in other comments I’ve made with other videos you’ve done , you mentioned Brompton have listened to consumers? Having contacts in many countries around the world all the Brompton owners are hoping that they have a belt drive system as you mentioned with Rolloff = one internal unit with 11 or 14 gears with one shifter no chain no derailed system = a bike for all with no maintenance, also mentioned that every bike manufacturer with mountain, electric, touring, year on year over the last four years the increase of belt drive system that they’ve introduced has gone up 30% over the chain drive systems, at this rate over the next four years the chains will start to be less sales than belt drive systems, how easy is it go into a shop for a Brompton all have belt drives the only difference will be weight factor, so don’t know who are Brompton asking questions too maybe a discussion in house around the coffee machine, the smart money would be to ask Rolloff to make a internal rear hub that would fit the existing Brompton triangle with the shifter, first order 100 thousand units probably sell them in the first week , want new bums on Brompton’s that is the way to go = open up a whole new market to people who would buy the bikes, I struggle to understand why Brompton can’t actually see this maybe start have decaffeinated coffee for better ideas.
I don't think Brompton will do a belt driven bike or a wider range hub anytime soon, and I think this is because they have only introduced the Adanced Rear Frame a couple of years ago. So for the next few years it will just be the "Advanced" range of stuff and any revisions to that, much more cost effective to use all the same parts currently in use and add few new things (new sturmey archer hub). Wouldn't make much sense for Brompton to develop a new rear frame to accomodate a different IGH and belt (which would need some kind of opening to allow for removal of the belt) and shifter for that as well. My thought is that something like an Alfine/Rohloff and belt might make something like a c-line cost as much as a p-line? And with that kind of price difference it's kind of the same with you buying a 2spd c-line and then getting a custom rear frame built and hub installed. Ideally Brompton would develop something like this at somepoint, but I don't know how soon that might come. The T-line (and in development G-line) show that Brompton are willing to experiment though, so who knows it might be sooner that I think.
@@MP_PapHew You of course could be correct, personally I hope you are wrong , there is already a system in place regarding a belt drive and the pulley release system when folding just check out the shop in Scotland all is already done along with one shifter for the 11Alfine or Rolloff 14 gears , having looked at the bike manufacturers as a complete unit the increase of belt drive systems are bringing more people into cycling that had been put off with chain drive, 30% more belt drives across the markets over five years , over the next few years it will over take chains, in my humble opinion the thing that Brompton is not seeing or doesn’t want to see because they have completely lost the plot in making ownership of a Brompton simple, so many variations now it’s embarrassing, with over a million bikes sold and a average of 70 thousand bikes made each year it would make sense to have at least one conversation with Rolloff as an example and say how much if you back engineer the 14 gear hub to fit our triangles new version and old version to to see how much it would cost , I know if I was in their position it would be a phone call worth having, I think they are missing a very big opportunity, they did say they had spoke to the owners of Brompton’s and asked what they would like = that why they came up with the twelve speed , so I did my own survey, so I spoke to my contacts in the UK, Japan , South Korea, Indonesia, Thailand, Hong Kong, America, Brazil , Germany, France , Everyone mentioned why didn’t they look at a belt drive, plus all said that it would increase sales especially with females because lots just don’t like chain systems, must said no oil and the maintenance would be none existent , many also mentioned at one time bike shops sold Brompton now it’s centre like the Brompton junction shops and have only concern on sales but no idea about fixing them, having a belt drive would also sort that issue out , so in conclusion I really do think Brompton have berried their heads in the sand and their bums are sticking up = at least we have somewhere to park our bikes , you mentioned G-line = not heard of this item = can you give some details? You will need several whiskers to get through the longest message in the history of messages.
@@KavanOBrienI also agree that Brompton have gone away from being a simple folding bike. The extra colours are quite nice, but there are so many! For each line too. The T-Line is nice in that regard where it kind of is the most simple Brompton at the moment. Ben Kinetics and Eerder Metaal have definitely shown that wider range IGHs and belt driven Bromptons are possible. I agree that there is a market for it but I don't think it would fit the way Brompton currently do things, the 12 speed is a good example of this. Ideally, Brompton would do a derailleur system (like a seven speed or so) and then maybe make use of the 5 speed Sturney Archer hub (or a Rohloff/Alfine). This would make for a line with an efficient lightweight drivetrain and another with a heavier but wider range drivetrain. Ideally this is what Brompton would do but for the moment what they are currently doing "works" and does so for most people. As for the G-Line. Brompton have been developing/prototyping (for several years now) a 20" bike with disc brakes, electric and non-electric. Whether this will come to fruition as an actual product, I don't know. The motor was in the rear wheel so the gearing system must be different.
I don't know why they wouldn't simply make a 11-speed Alfine model. Simple to change gears, wide range, low maintenance, and (especially compared to Rohloff), much less expensive. The new 12-speed is effectively like a triple chainring set-up with a 4-speed cassette. It just doesn't make sense.
There certainly is no technical reason. My bet is they can control the margins more easily. Shimano as a supplier can choose the bike brands they work with. I would imagine sturmey archer is more inclined to keep brompton as a customer.
Honestly, I don’t understand why Brompton doesn’t collaborate with Rohloff to get a high quality hub into their bikes. Both companies seem to share pretty similar philosophies based on quality and tradition. It would be a very good match.
I have to ask you a question. I know brompton are discontinuing the 6 speed. But! Given a choice between the 6 speed and the 12 speed which would you go for? I've got a beautiful 6 speed in Flame Laqueur...never had so much fun on a bike. I've recently test ridden a 12 speed and my immediate thought was too much faffing about. I just don't understand why they can't have a 8 speed nexus hub and do away with the 4 and 2 speed derailleur. You'd have brilliant gearing, no faff and vertually zero maintenance.ñ
I agree with all your points for sure! If I had to pick one brompton it would be the 6 speed cause I know it does everything well and the front ring can be changed if you need more or less
As an owner of a now much modified, with so many new titanium and carbon parts, and - lighter, now a very much former version of a 2019 SuperlightM6LXBrompton, I honestly wouldn't know what to use a lower gearing than my present for? Only - once I have met a hill on which I, on top, had to - walk to continue, after initially having wondered for what use I had the low gears, of my 6?? And a Brompton isn't exactly a Racing Bike, so a higher gearing than my present, when going downhill again, mostly, would also be rather absurd (Just let it roll going down!)! And on top of that having to find out what gears to use from this rather complicated and illogical gear system? But my present and superlight MTB has 33 possible gears to chose from and I can't even start in my low gears on a flat road and get - riding speed, so it may be an option for some/the few with a need to ride up a wall, or down again 🙃? Finn. Denmark
Think they misread the feedback, a single rear hub with more gears would in my view be better. I love my 6speed commuter brompton but trying to explain the gearing of Minus/Plus 1-2-3 or 1 Minus, 1 Plus, 2 Minus, 2 Plus, 3 Minus and 3 Plus … you can see their facial expression “eh what?” Trying to explain Left 1-2-3-4 and Right 1-2-3 …. Not a chance 😂
I currently have a 6 speed and an Alfine 11 Brompton. The Alfine gears are amazing and v similar to the 12 speed in range. The Alfine goes brilliantly but it is too heavy to repeatedly carry up and down stairs. So the new 12 speed gives the gears I’m looking for, but at the weight of my 6 speed. What’s not to like…..thanks for your film.
Is that correct (weight)? I'd have thought the Alfine (1700g) would be a similar weight to the total weight of the 3-speed BWR IGH (930g) plus 4-speed cassette set-up? (Can't find any weight data online for the latter, though)
Super Video. I own 2 Bromptons, one 3 gear hub with mountain drive and one electric, with a mix of derailleur and hub gears. I could have purchased cheaper bikes, cheaper bikes with more gears, lighter bikes, electric bikes going 100km. But, I like the versatility of a Brompton. Throw it in the trunk of your car, take it on a train, to the supermarket and easily keep up with other bikes in terms of speed on my commute - great conversation piece. Why do I have 2 though? Initially, I was planning to sell my non-electric Brompton, because the electric covers all I need. It rides like a charme with the motor disengaged, so I use the battery for the lights mainly. But, once in a while, I like the peace of mind having the option of support. So, for me I have all I need. Why did I not sell my non-electric Brompton? It's a workhorse, 14 years old and never failed me. Nothing to fiddle with, just some basic maintenance. So, my journey would probably go more in the direction of 1 gear :) One would assume that any bike buyer has a value system in mind that starts with must haves (e.g. versatility, portability, low maintenance), nice to haves (e.g. gearing, low weight) and bells and whistles (like bells, lights and all stuff that can be dealt with later.) Cheers, Chris
Great comment Chris and thanks for sharing. Loved the last section and while not on my list I do enjoy a bike that requires tweaking and refinements over time so maybe the 4 speed p line is perfect for me 😬
Dutch Bloker Naked bike has a coaster brake hub with two gears, 27.5” wheels, I wish the Brompton also had such a hub then no longer had brake cables and a dirty chain (drive belt) but would have a bit lighter weight... I'll think about it to convert an old Brompton myself, but I wonder how hard I pedal with 16" instead of 27.5" wheels
I have owned quite several Bromptons over the years, and we currently have 5 in a household of 2 ;-) We have not purchased any new ones after the change in naming to xyz-line, so the preferred model on my part is the S6E which I use for dry weather commuting and races. I have raced in mountains (Alps and Pyrenees) as well as longer distance rides (London-Surrey 100miles, Vätternrundan 300km etc.) and I honestly do not see any need for more gears within this range. When riding in the mountains I use the 50T and otherwise, the 52T is fine. The main attraction of the Brompton is the combination of compact fold for bringing it on trains, planes, and into buildings, and the fact that it is such an efficient and well-thought-out bike. (Also priceless satisfaction when overtaking road bikes during a race)
It's an amazing bike. Once you get used to the gearing it's without question the best Brompton for the money. And will get you up steep hills. Which other bromptons with only 1--4 gears won't.
I've owned my 3 speed brompton since 2009. The gears work so well year after year and it has not yet had a single service. I´ve used it extremely much. 3 speed option is a little bit heavy, overall, but still today the best set up over time.
Brompton refuses to pay sturmey-archer for their 6 or 8 speed hubs because it would effect the huge margins they make per bike. They'd rather keep costs rock bottom and stick on an over-complicated, heavy and bodged derailleur (but very very cheap).
You managed to confuse me with your explanation of the 12 speed gearing, and I’ve ridden a few thousand miles on my S6L! I’d love to try a 12 speed and like you I’d really like a T line 12 but you can get a lot more bike elsewhere for that kind of money (if you ignore the fold of course). I’ve come to the conclusion that my perfect Brompton would involve getting a P Line delivered to Ben at Kinetics for a Rohloff conversion, then shipping it to Cambridge for an Arcc electric kit to be fitted. 😂
Great reflexion on the brand strategy! I owned a 6 speeds for more than 10 years, with a 54chain ring to race at the BWC. quite happy with the range - got really use to the weird combination of shifting, Just bought a Pline 4 speeds and look for 3 different upgrade options: 1- Dual chain ring 54/33 (cf Brilliant bikes video), surely the worst practical one - but that's part of the fun, lightest option. 2- add a fith sprocket and sram shifter, 3- get the new hub for the 12 speed. (a bit heavier). But was so waiting for a bike that rule them all. And Alfine approach would be great, but that's not Brompton, so not sure they will use this option § even if we understand there will be a 20 inch, disc brake new line in September...- overall such a fan of these bikes! `so fun to race with road bikers who don't expect to be taken over by a baby bike! 😅
Very much agree with your last racing comment and overtaking full size bikes. Next year I’m going to try a double chainring on my bike and will begin researching for the best solution next year
Lol. Love the mock scenario. That is a big reason why ppl might grab a Tern c8 Link. Disc breaks. Straight shifting. Adjustable stem. Reasonable fold. . And all of the generic parts. But this is also why I am thinking 3-spd interal A Line. As a roadie 12 gears appeals but not at that cost or complication. 😁
Yeah it needs to be straight shifting for sure! So many other companies offer it so still blows my mind. I would honestly say best value is the two speed C line mate
I enjoyed the sales simulation. It was an all-too real classic example of someone trying to sell features rather than benefits.All these technical issues (gearing, handlebar, c line, p- line, t line) are things that the salesperson should be sorting through initially in their own mind as they listen to the client. But the best thing is to simply get the client sitting on a bike as quickly as possible so they get acquainted. The technical stuff can be sorted through as the client handles the bikes. I think Brompton made the same error on their website when they introduced this new 12 speed. “More gears” is a feature, “more range” is a benefit but slightly unclear. There are more benefits to gearing than “range”.
Great input so thank you. You know the more I use my p line 4 speed it makes me hate the shifting cause I’m consistently having to tweak it about once a week. They now most likely made a bike that will require so much more service than ever.
Here’s a spanner in the works for you: Add a Kinetics rear triangle to a T-Line with a Rohloff 14-speed hub to any 16” rim, problem solved, ish 😂 I think Brompton are starting to lose their way a bit, the traditional non-cyclist wants simplicity which is why the M3L (C-Line Urban Mid) sold so well: 1st gear to start in, 2nd gear for the flat, 3rd gear for downhill or faster than 2nd. The new 12-speed has two overlaps in its range from 4th to 5th (where 4th is higher than 5th) and another two from 8th to 9th (where 8th is higher than 9th) giving 4 unusable and/or redundant gears dependant on whether going up or down the gearing, and is failing into the trap that multi-derailleur systems have always had, exactly what IGH systems avoid in the first place. Prior to a Rohloff setup, the simplest multi-gear system I’ve seen was a Kinetics build for a guy with an H3R (C-Line Urban High) by simply fitting a Stronglight triple chainset, giving 9 speeds via two handlebar shift levers: left shifter for chainset and right shifter for the hub as usual.
I have the problem with the lower cog on the P Line. I hope they offer an upgrade path for current P Line 4 Speeds owners to 12 Speeds. Here in SEA, some companies offer an after market 7 speed option.
I have seen the after market 7 speed and I was very interested!! Just can’t keep spending money on Brompton things 🤣. I’m pretty sure you could buy the hub, shifter and cable separately and it would work.
I think the big problem with Brompton is that everything is overly complex and parts compatibility isn't all that good. I think more people would buy in if you could buy an A-line priced bike and everything that comes on the dearer bikes was available to upgrade later and currently that's not the case and some changes seem arbitrary that lock you out of some options.
That is certainly a valid input and do agree. Even buying something as simple as a brake cable can be complex cause you need to buy Brompton specific ones
@@TheBromptonGuy Well an issue is you really don't but they tell you that you do. There's also that weird thing that they tell you can't fit their integrated brake and shifter levers for a pre-17 bike when you absolutely can. You just need to replace the the derailleur tensioner thing with the new type - but then they do this whole thing of hiding how long the cables are so you don't know what to buy.
Your bit on explaining gearing to someone seems deliberately overly complicated and intended to make their eyes glaze. I could do that explaining camera exposure triangle or telescope options, or I could give a proper easy to understand explanation. It's all the presentation; my job involves translating very complex issues to a form most people could easily comprehend...granted it took years to learn how to do that, but now that is my default mode on everything....break it down and don't make their eyes glaze. Frankly, the Brompton 12 speed electric looks like a good idea and I look forward to trying it. Why electric?... hills and torn knee meniscus. Edited for tyos
It is deliberately over complete yes! As said in the video was going to over dramatise it. I could most certainly do an easier version and simplest would be to explain it like a triple front ring, was simply highlighting that they've made something that ideally would be explained as "You shift from 1 to 12, that is all" Similar to 12 speed internal hubs. I don't want anyone to think that this is a bad idea cause it certainly isn't and these will sell well IMO just highlighting my initial thoughts. Thanks for watching
@@TheBromptonGuy True, although in some ways uphill 1-4, normal terrain 1-4, Downhill/Speed 1-4 is simpler than sequential 1-12 because of being grouped by use, plus you can drop from regular to uphill group while stopped at a light (since so many folks forget to downshift as they come to a stop). But again, it's all point of view. 😉🙃
The issue of the jumping on the small cog on the P/T RD is I believe as follows. Unlike a normal RD the tension pulley isn't attached to the guide pulley; instead they are both separate and the tension pulley is move side to side on a steel shaft by the guide pulley and the chain between them. Why does that matter? Well, in the small sprocket position the RD both the cable tension and the derailleur arm return spring tension are at their minimum. So minimal, in fact, that the RD is floppy enough to be jostled around by the tension pulley and not the other way around (tail wagging the dog). Subsequently if you are on bumpy ground the usual thrashing around of the chain will shake the tension pulley side to side which will in turn move the guide pulley. And the only way it can go is jump to the second cog for a bit before the spring tension moves it back down again. (I'm currently redesigning the RD for my bike so have gone way too deep into this!)
@@TheBromptonGuy Thanks. I'm not 100% sure that's the case. But it's noteworthy the issue exists on all derailleurs that have the separate sliding tension pulley (first and third party). Something I've tested extensively.
Really informative video, enjoyed the skit too. Would you say the regular 4 speed T-Line is capable of touring at all? Also, are there any advantages it might have over the 12 speed?
Weight is the obvious saving!! The 4 speed also come with a lovely sounding freehub which will most likely roll better (IMO). However its build for speed so yes while you could use it for touring it just wouldn't cut the mustard like a 12 speed unless you're in great shape 🤣
@@TheBromptonGuy thanks for sharing your opinion on this. I own the 4 speed T-Line and yes it is pretty quick, but I am still trying to understand if I can do things such as a 'London to Paris' trip with it, similarly to you.
Yes sorry that is correct and now realising that I forgot to edit that section of the video!! Will Pin this comment when I’m home BUT YES 12 SPEED ELECTRIC C LINE ALSO
The rear triangle is the difference between p-line electric and c-line electric. So the c-line rear triangle is fully developed, brompton just tries to push people to buy the expensive bikes if you ask me
I think the Sturmey S-RF5(w) internal hub would be the best option for most people, but that’s not a stock option. Plus I know it is apparently a bit finicky to adjust.
8 speed has direct drive on gear 1 whereas 5 speed has direct drive on gear 3. That seems very different. I prefer to use direct drive to take the weight of gear pawls. Is that correct? Is this difference significant from riding perspective ? Do both these hubs fit the standard rear triangle or do I need to go to Kinetics?
I think we are at a transitional stage for Brompton TBH. With the introduction of the new triangle and the new 4 year derailleur, they basically opened the way to introduce the new internal gear hub. Having so many Bromptons with the old triangle and hub (BWR) the new hub I think slowly will replace the old triangles to all the lines and at the end there will be only 4 derailleur gears or 3x4 = 12 gears. From now on there will be fine tuning on the new derailleur. I haven’t tried the new 12 speed, but being a 6 gear BWR user since 2008, I think the concept of gearing to the new system won’t be as a -1/+1 -2/+2 -3/+3 but more like a bike with a 3 rings on the front. There will be some intermediate gears crossover but at the end it will give a big option. I think they are looking into making 1 bike to rule them all. TBH I have been more than happy on my daily commute, longer day trips, running errands etc with the 6 speed BWR with -12% gearing and recently with slightly more reduced (40t chainring instead of 44) that I am not sure if I would jump to make an upgrade to the new system, unless I gave it a try first. Good review as always, keep up the good videos coming!
Great comment and hit all points! I completely endorse this comment and also just received a 40t chainring for my upcoming hilly sportive. Thanks for watching
Agree with much of what you say. For nearly 30 years I have commuted and toured, on two dozen Bromptons, in Canada and much of Europe. My current tourer is an old-style lightweight Ti, with P bars on an S stem, 6spd BWR, 13-18 rear sprockets and a 40T chainring ie 24 to 80 gear inches, albeit in uneven steps. An even greater gear range sounds good, but I definitely do not want a rear mech and a rear hub-gear when I’m touring, and even with a 40T chainring it does not seem that the 12 speed would gain at the low end. When you’re travelling with luggage, Low is generally good and Lower is Better.
I'm a committed roadie and bought a C-line explore 6 speed on the cycle to work scheme and was frankly amazed at how high top gear was and the huge gaps between all the gears ! Seems bonkers that they don't come with a 44 tooth chain ring, which many users appear to change to after purchase. In my opinion that would make it more flexible than offering what to my mind is an overly complicated and unnecessary 12 speeds, unless you are full on tourer.
Well said and share a very similar option. I reckon they sell it with a 50t cause most its business is done in London where a 44t may be a little under powered for the flat terrain.
Solution allow customer who purchase new to opt for the ring of choice 🤷🏻♂️
Fully agree - the 50t is makes little sense to me. For the top end I feel it‘s too quick for a brompton anyways and the low end robs any fun on commutes with a few hills
I dropped to a 39 for touring I. The hills. It still gets down the road fine in high gear. The old English 3 speeds had super tall gearing too
I have been waiting for the 12 speed P line for months, and I bought it the very day of its release. I must say I love this bike. I admit I am not new to cycling (quite the opposite). So you’re probably right : not exactly a bike for newbies. But gosh, what a fantastic little bike! Small precision : I intend to use this bike for touring and more traditional commuting.
Amazing! Congrats on the purchase and well done for waiting it out. May it bring you many happy tours
One BIG Rohloff plus?:
The gear indexing is INTERNAL within the hub!
Hugely most simple, versus complications of external cable-adjustments, to optimize gear selecting!!!
Internally indexed Rohloff WITH Belt Drive!!!!! OH.., YEAH!
The absolute dream combination and that’s why we love Ben Cooper 🤣
I love the 3 speed hub. I don’t have to clean it, I don’t have to think about it. It works year round in all weathers and once or twice a year I turn the indicator chain a turn or two to tension the couple of millimetres of chain stretch. It is absurdly robust and trouble-free. There’s a lot to be said for keeping gearing a bit of a puff on the hills, it keeps us fit. Give someone more and more gears and they’ll get lazier and lazier. I’m approaching retirement and can see myself wanting more gears eventually, but it will be a hub courtesy of out Scottish expert 🙂
Very much agreed with everything said. Thanks for input
I'm an idiot so how I think of the gearing on the 6speed is that I have three gears in two modes.
I’ve been told by a Brompton dealer that there is no plan to offer an upgrade package for the 4 speed Pline at present. So I’ve opted to upgrade to a 6 speed H&H system. Not quite the same range but one system with one shifter (not much additional weight) and I can go up hills now!
The H&H stuff is very interesting.
It's complicated to explain even to the road cyclist. Very nice demo of how difficult it was to the newbie
Thank you!! Enjoyed being a Brompton member of staff very much 🤣
„Remember the 3by drive train you had 10 year ago? Yeah just like that“ :)
@@HolgerNestmann Yes, Its kind of the same but kind of different. Brompton 12 speed, internal hub gear ratio is much more spreaded away from each other. Trys to avoid overlapping of gears
@@joyousland That‘s fair. One still gets the overlap of the smallest and largest sprocket but thats it. So you have 10 effective gears. On a 3x7 a quick google search said one has about 15 effective gears: There is still more overlap on the different chainrings.
I still believe that is a good way to explain it to cyclists - and frankly as a dumb kid I didn‘t have problems understanding a 3x6 (besides boasting about having 18 gears)
edit update on brompton effective gears
I did the math: A Brompton with a 40T front chainring, 11T sprocket and Shimano Alfine 8 speed would do exactly the same as a 6 speed Brompton, 306% gear ratio, 30,7 to 94 gear inches. Would be a superior setup.
Great maths and thanks for the input! Very helpful
I am an avid Brompton user but agree: 12 speed is too complicated.Even the 6 gear is overly complicated. I've also built a P-line clone with 5 speed deralireur and the simplicity of the system with only one shifter to control the hole system is superior. A Rolhoff-style sollution would be ideal. Even a 8 speed Shimano Alfine would work given the right internal spacing of gears.
Internal hubs are just a maintenance and reliable dream.
20" Brompton with Rohloff internal gear hub would be the ultimate dream bicycle of all time.
I priced one, I think it was about $6k USD from kinetics if you don't have a base brompton for the conversion.
@@shalakabooyaka1480 That's very expensive. My price estimates: Factory spec Brompton under 2k, Rohloff 1,5k, new stainless steel rear triangle 1k? Work 1-2k??
@@PerSkeles the one i priced was with a gates belt drive, SON dynamo w/ edelux light, and full hydraulic discs as well.
Thanks for all the comments and input. Expensive but as you say ultimate folding build for sure, don't get much better with something like a pricey carbon seat post, cracks or bars.
5sp internal hub is sufficient for the way I use my Brompton. Belt drive is a plus, only in my dream.
@tdgdbs1 Any issues with the 5 speed hub fitted to standard rear triangle? I've heard from ex-B engineer that the 5sp hub is a very tight fit. Yes, I too dream of my B being a belter.
Belt drive one day hopefully (well at least 5 more years)
When Bromptons were first sold the gearing options were 3 or 5. Imagine the simplicity of such a retail experience 🥰
I had a 3 speed C line for 4 years before I past it down to my daughter. Served me well as a tucker. Fit right in the footwell of my passenger seat. If I were to buy another it would be a 6 speed. My only beef with Brompton is the proprietary parts unfamiliar with most bicycle mechanics. Other than that, great product.
I have the standard 6 speed, and honestly I don't do the stop pedaling/keep pedaling thing because no one ever told me about it. I just let up on the pedals a bit, and it works fine. I even shift both sides at once, shifting to a higher hub gear and a lower cog at the same time. That gets to the next highest ratio in one step. Then I shift only the cog to go up one step. Cog, both, cog, both, cog, bottom to top gear. Reverse the procedure to step down. I honestly thought that's what everyone did. Maybe my hub won't last quite as long, but it's effective. With the 12 speed setup, that won't work because the ratios overlap. If they would just give me three cogs, and three hub gears, with no overlap, I'd be happy. Haven't modders have been doing it for years?
Bromptons get modded in so many ways so yes most likely. However I think your comment above is great and you seem to have the system dialled down.
I literally didn't know any different. With the 12 speed, that sequence would make it shift the opposite way in certain places, if I am interpreting the charts correctly. I would not enjoy that.
There are a lot of options but only for some. Here in Finland the Brompton scene is basically non-existent. I have seen someone ride a Brompton maybe once or twice. So the whole lineup is not available here. I'd really like the A-line Brompton but they won't import it. So it is really unfortunate that Brompton has a strict policy on selleing Brompton products abroad. I understand why that is but I really don't want the 6 speed and I don't want to pay 550€ for mudguards and front attachment block. That's the difference, 1100€ for A line and C-explore is 1650€. I'd save so much by buying A-line and fitting the mudguards myself.
Sounds cheaper to have a holiday in the UK and just take one home with you 🤣. Fell spoilt that I can test ride any one them with a days notice to a store.
Love your videos mate. Me and the wife have 3 speeds and manage ok with these. Does everything we want.👍
Thank you so much and glad you get some joy out the videos. Hope you and wife have many Brompton adventures.
I got the T line 4 speed end of last year, and the 12 speed came out a month after I bought it! Was tempted to convert, but to be honest the efficiency in anything other than the 2nd direct drive on the rear hub is pretty poor compared to just the derailleur... Also since having it I have ridden the 4 speed over similar very hilly courses and the 4 speed plus walking up 1 in 5 hills my speed is similar to my multi geared full sized road bike! Why complicate the bike and add unnecessary weight?
I do tend to agree with you on this! The only reason I would get the 12 speed T line is because I own a 4 speed P Line 🤪. I agree also I've had little issues getting my 4 speed p line over hills but Im sure that all comes does to personal fitness and the 12 speed would allow more people to conquer more hills overall. The only other reason I've like it would be for when I'm doing crazy long days in the saddle (not what a brompton is for) and when it hits hour 7 I think I would appreciate the easy gearing 😆
The 6-spd is already complicated enough, and has a very generous range. I have to be going up a very steep hill to use the lowest gear, and going an unsafe speed downhill to spin out on the top gear.
The 12-spd is hack job. Due to the overlapping gear, it's maybe 10-spd at best, but the overlap makes shifting even more complicated beyond the left shifter and right shifter. And, the range extension beyond the 6-spd will be very situational (niche). This means the mid-range which will be used most of the time suffers from the overlap.
The 6-spd at least has a fairly linear range with a predictable and intuitive gap. Likewise the 2, 3, and 4-spd. The 12-spd....no.
Said very well and 110% agree. Thanks for the input
Thanks for the video, the gearing system is too complicated for a weekend fitness riding. I'll opt for 4 speed.
Truthfully I just went for my first BROMPTON test ride and I did feel a little bit of what your talking about :) good breakdown on some primary points !
I have a 20-speed Brompton (4x5), the kit I bought from BrommiePlus. I thought abou the 12-speed but I just bought the P Line a year ago and I don't want to buy another P Line this time just for the 12-speed. Then I saw the 20-speed upgrade kit. I am like a big fan of the SA 5-speed IGH so this is like a no brainer for me. I ordered the kit from BrommiePlus and they got installed on my Brompton a week later. It is the best decision I've ever made.
Great option to install instead and completely rules out the 12 speed. I got a couple of BrommiePlus items to help me with my hilly sportive and plan to fit them soon but just need to decided the best chain to use with them.
So would a 4-speed with an after-market 44t be the best option for riding into and around town, some hills, max distance about 20km? Speccing a T line right now and had thought the Explore would be the right one for me.
I'm a road/MTBer, six foot, fit, lower-back issues rearing head recently. Bike will be used in a motorhome in Europe and on road trips in Canada (home).
Yeah you’re certainly on the money! To help with the back I would also personally get it with a high stem. My 4 speed is perfect and the hub also sounds amazing.
The same argument could be made for the 6 speed and my retail experience was not like that. The retailers simply says you will get used to it :) :) :)
lol could have cut it down even more then 🤣
Thanks for the video. I can understand your point. What I believe happened lately is that brompton addressed some critisism people had
- Gear Range
- Weight
What they don‘t do is thin out older models ending up with the mess they have. It is even a little sinister that they seem to try to push people to the high cost models as 12 speed is exclusive to the p and t-line AND c-line electric. So the c-line rear triangle is already developed, they just wont give it to us.
Imho the 12 speed is not more complicated then the 6 speed, it is even very similar if you consider the smallest and largest cog are new. If you stay on cog 2 and 3 you have practically a 6 speed
And this might be a cyclist argument, but it works just like any other 3by drive train
Regardless I‘d buy a rohloff or alfine brompton in a heartbeat
Great input and thank you for sharing. Don’t disagree with any of the above. 👌
For some of us that live in hilly areas (Seattle USA for example) the 12 speed is what we’ve needed from Brompton in order to get more folks on them. The 6 speed is only for folks that like sufferfests at the moment!
Great input thanks for sharing. Need to get mine to the US at some point
I don't get it - paying premium plus for crappy old English Sturmey Archer which was outdated already 45 years ago - either, a light 1x11, or a meaningful internal gearing (Rohloff - yes, pricey and heavy, but reliable, or an Alfine 8).
it seems to me its for touring where some transit might be mixed in on tour, or for living in a hilly area. in flat places the 6 speed is plenty
I definitely agree as it’s the only logical market I can see it for. However I do worry that Bromptons 10kg maximum load and 110kg on the bike might limit people from enjoying touring 🤷🏻♂️
IMHO..Brompton would not have created this 12 speed option had they not had demand for it.
If you want to be successful in any business, give your customers what they want.
Brompton is adding to their lineup with this configuration, not subtracting from it.
I’m 76 and riding an electric P Line I bought last summer. I would have preferred more gears than the 4 offered but I wanted the titanium fork and rear triangle for weight reduction.
However, having ridden the 4 speed for an extensive period, I have found it’s adequate…… but not ideal.
But for that kind of dough and at my age, adequate doesn’t cut it, so if I have a better choice it’s tempting.
And I think the 12 spd is a better choice…..but again that’s for ME!
I will likely upgrade to the 12 speed.
I’d like some more top end plus a lower gear for climbing, despite the fact it’s an electric bike. Again I’m 76 and fairly fit…… but these darn birthdays are eventually fatal, doncha know!
If this new 12 speed turns out to be a dud for Brompton and they’re a tough sell, that model will disappear. It remains to be seen if Brompton is ahead of the curve in this.
I’m predicting this bike will be a hit. ( I was hoping to predict this anonymously…….😉……..)
While you are waiting for the upgrade, you could simply change the chainring - I suggest smaller to flatten those hills, but the dare devil in you might prefer larger for more top speed.
@@SimonBrowneNZ Hi Simon…..I considered both, but then got wind of the 12 speed. That upgrade will be a lot more dough I’m sure but I don’t have many expensive habits, so what the hell! I’m in Toronto and I might head down to the ( very good ) Brompton dealer here tomorrow to get an idea of how much.
Trouble is, I bought the same bike for my wife at the same time…..so I might have keep my upgrade a secret….😉
Great comment and input. My prediction is the same as your one.
I had a T-Line 4 speed on order when the 12 speed was announced. The dealer has given me the option to change to the 12 so I really appreciated this video to gain a little more perspective. I was all geared up for the 12 speed (excuse the pun) until I read it adds almost 1kg to the weight. The T-line is all about lightness and I'm not sure I would use the maximum gearing range enough to want to give up that weight advantage. I'm still on the fence but leaning towards the 4 speed. I can always upgrade later if I feel the need.
Thats the thing. If one compares the 4-speed options of P and T line, the price of weight reduction is 1250 euro per kilo. Adding one 1kg back just like that needs to be thought through.
It‘s still the lightest 12 speed, but I would have liked brompton to offer a wider range derailleur for the t-line
It’s a hard choice indeed! I think the 4 speed T line is a solid option. For me personally I’ll get the 12 speed I’m sure but that’s only cause I plan to do crazy and long adventures on it.
Let's say you bought a Brompton T-Line. Would you NOW, 3 months later, buy the 4-speed or 12 speed? Also, how would you customize it? For instance, would you get Hubsmith wheels or Canecreek brakes? Would you modify the cogs and the chainring? I don't like the two different shifters on the 12 speed. I'd rather have 1 rear derailleur with a single chainring up front, maybe 9 speed cogs in the back. Keep it simple. Curious minds want to know what you think? Stay awesome ! ♥
Great questions. I would most likely get a used 4 speed and change rings as needed. Just about to reduce my gearing for a hilly event I have coming up.
I’m happy with the brakes but would love a carbon wheel set but not sure I can warranty £1000 for them. Would also love a custom fitted carbon post with built in clamp. You stay classy also 👌
For some reason it says I didn’t respond so hope it came through
@@TheBromptonGuy What about the front chainring and cranks? Would you get a larger one? I'm just dreaming here but, oooooh, I love the Sturdy Cycles Titanium 3D printed crankset. There are other Sturdy Cycle components that are stunning too. How about this? ...Let's win the lottery.
Brompton should keep it simple. An A line 3 speed with a 39T chainring would give gear inches of 37-50-65. Not a setup for speedy riding, but good enough for the average cyclist who just wants a truly foldable bike with an ability to tackle reasonably steep hills. With fancy, complicated 12 speed setups I think Brompton has really lost their way, and is in danger of rapidly losing the market that Andrew Richie designed his bike for.
Can’t disagree with this at all! I think Brompton have pushed the message so hard that they don’t want people to have to buy a new Brompton every whatever years but then realise they need the business 😂. Which leads to things like this 12speed, ohh people who have less speeds might want to upgrade 🤷🏻♂️
Thanks for the video, how about using schlump drive compared to 12 speed?
The Brompton 12 speed is for people who already own Bromptons. The two different ways of shifting gears have become 2nd nature to this group. Brompton are offering the internal hub to existing P-line and T-line customers but there’s a weight penalty. They really should have offered a dual chainring IMO for the 4 speed P line and T line
I would agree with the dual chainring! Can pick your own gear ratio easier.
The enclosed hub is one of the things I love about the Brompton. No hassle. I think I'd settle for a better range hub and compensate the weight with Ti and carbon.
125% agree!! The reliability, cleanliness and as you say weight can be off set with the weight of materials used to build the bike
I agree 402% too
I also agree on this. However the people who spent the big amounts (p line and T line) tend to pay a lot of attention to the weight not so much in actual use of the bike but as a bike characteristic and I think Brompton sells a lot of these nowadays !
I agree 313%!!
Roady after switching from MTB. Now considering a Brompton - especially given the gear range, for an upcoming tour v's my original thought of picking up a cross/gravel. I'm going to check out a store today in TW, to learn some more/see if they have this P line 12 speed. Cheers.
Did you manage to see one in a shop in the end?
They did have them in TW, though I wasn't 100% sure at the time. I'm now in Osaka, JPN as i type this. I went to Loro Cycle Works yesterday, they had the 12 speed in stock. Just waiting for the rear rack to be delivered, from Kobe (tomorrow). They're taking care of some mods - kick stand, ergo grips. Then I should have it by midday, really looking forward to it.
I love my brompton 2 speed ❤
An absolute solid bike. You picked well.
I want to trade my C Line Explore for a P Line Explore. I went to my local Brompton dealer and they're not available in USA til later this year. I'm bringing my Brompton to Japan next month and I really wanted improved range.
Always wanted to see Japan that sounds like a fabulous trip indeed! Didn’t know they weren’t in the US yet 🤔
I have my old H6L and aded a dual titanium sprocket. Its now a 12 speed. I just kick the chain over if I see a big hill.
How do you shift it back to the big ring?
@@TheBromptonGuy pull over and put back on the big one.
Tried the 3 speed but the gaps too big for me. I use a 6 speed which is good but struggling up very steep hills. 12 probably unnecessary for my use. Tourers seem happy 😁 Thanks
Yeah I think the adjustment in swapping front rings is enough to balance everyones likes and wants.
What’s the fuss? Don’t you just buy the cheaper Brompton, get an upgrade kit replacing rear triangle, fork and rims/ wheel and change gear set to Shimano external or 11 speed internal, add disk brakes hydraulic and add a dual chain ring with or without derailleurs. You get a better lighter bike. Save the replaced parts or sell to minimize costs you’ll be converting these to carbon.
I can't decide. I really want the emerald green lacquer but it's only a 4 speed. But at the same price as the new 12 speed. 🤔
I don't envy the choice my friend! When I got my Emerald Lacquer the 4 speed was the only option available so was easy to allow colour to be my driven force to pull that trigger and the fact it was limited run made it even easier. That said what you plan to use it for should be the biggest driver and if you feel you'll ride a 12 speed more then colour should take the passenger seat IMO
@@TheBromptonGuy I don't really think I need 12 speeds. 😃 If I didn't like the colour so much, I'd go for C line... 🤦♂️ Silly I know
On the other hand I'd like to have the lighter bike. I plan to use it for rides around the town, no hills, on and off the tram/train...
I'm new to all this but I'm guessing Sturmey-Archer have a contract to supply Brompton with hubs? Maybe it was too painful to break that and go with the Rohloff so they came up with this compromise instead. I'm very disappointed because I was really thinking about getting one but I don't think I'll bother now. Great video.
I'm not sure tbh but I draw the same conclusion. Thanks for the support
Sturmey archer might be fine for UK users, but anyone else would want to stay away from that brand due to brexit. I ended up with a hub in need of maintenance, had to replace a spring that's a 3£ part, and I paid about triple due to customs and shipping. That's just reducing the economic viability of this option. Also, the range even on a nexus 3 gear is better, and I believe they are easier to work on. They really should have used a better hub, nexus 8 or alfine 11 would be great options without complexity. "Just back of a little bit when pedalling hard" would be all the additional briefing a noncyclist would need after "1 is easy, 8/11 is hard."
double clanger on the front ??? i have such which i bolted on with a greasy finger shift and up the hills i go ..how easy was that xxx
SIMPLES!!
I have 4 speed P line lunar ice a month ago before they release the 12spd. Shall i sell the 4spd n get myself a 12spd? Any big difference in terms of performance? Tbh i also just modded mty lunae ice & changed to hollowtech carbon crankset
Carbon crankset!! very nice but so costly. I want my carbon wheel set before crack set 🤪
No major difference IMO I wouldn't sell my p line for the 12 speed personally as I feel the 4 speed p line is perfect for what I use it for (apart from its sketchy shifting from time to time)
Also ... ich war kurz davor ein 12-Gang-Brompton zu kaufen ... Ich dachte mich schon immer, dass diese Technik der Schaltung - mit Ketten- UND Nabenschaltung - seltsam, ja komisch ist .... Und dann noch : einmal treten, dann wieder nicht treten ... Das ist mir als Laie zu kompliziert !! Ja, warum nicht eine Rohloff-Schaltung: alles in eine Nabe rein! ?? Einfach fahren können ist für mich das Wichtigste ... das Falten steht nicht an erster Stelle .. Ich weiß nicht wie realitätsfern die Ingenieure bei Brompton inzwischen geworden sind ... So eine Technik wünscht sich doch kein Käufer ! ... Tja, was tun ? .. denn das 4-Gang ist mir dann doch zu wenig an Gänge ! ... ich lebe in einer bergigen Gegend ... Aber wie man auf so eine Idee kommen kann, so eine nervige Technik zu verbauen ... Brompton kennt scheinbar in seinem Elfenbeinturm nur noch die Forderungen seiner unbedingt ergebenen Fans, die einfach alles kaufen wo "Brompton" drauf steht !? Ich hätte sehr gerne ein Brompton .. und bräuchte auch ein 12-Gang ... aber diese nervtötende Schalterei .. das werde ich mir dann wohl doch nicht antun ....
So... I was about to buy a 12-speed Brompton... I always thought that this gearshift technology - with derailleur AND hub gears - was strange, even strange.... And then: Step once, then don't step again... That's too complicated for me as a layman!! Yes, why not a Rohloff circuit: everything in one hub! ?? Being able to drive easily is the most important thing for me... folding is not the first priority... I don't know how out of touch with reality the engineers at Brompton have become... No buyer wants technology like that! ... Well, what to do? .. because the 4-speed doesn't have enough gears for me! ... I live in a mountainous area ... But how could someone come up with such an idea to install such an annoying technology ... In its ivory tower, Brompton apparently only knows the demands of its absolutely devoted fans, who simply buy everything where it says “Brompton”!? I would really like a Brompton... and would also need a 12-speed... but this annoying switch... I guess I won't put myself through that after all...
(Sorry for this Google-English ... )
The google translate was very welcomed and read fairly well to be honest (I hope this translates back well also). We share pretty much the same feelings and assume they don't partner will Rohloff because there would have to mark the price up so much more it would make it seem ridiculous to any consumer.
I was almost there… but the skit went too “technical” from the outset (context being the Brompton store vs another Brompton retailer) IMO. I’d see the discussion more like:
Customer: I’m looking for a bike
Brompton Shop: Sure. Are you looking for something to bop around town, or for longer trips?
(Customer gets usage filter first that matches with Urban and Explore lines)
BS: ok great. Were you looking at an ebike, or a non-ebike?
(Customer gets filter next on mode)
BS: Ok great, last question. Did you have an upper limit you were looking to stay away from spending?
(By this point, you are down to no more than 4 trim lines, and got sufficient info about how they want to ride to prescribe handlebar and bag options)
In the above, the 12 speed fits quite well. One doesn’t have to know much, nor does the “do you know about custom builds” needs to come in.
Your clip of the Brompton CEO is indeed right. But, I think your skit went too far towards bits a decent sales person would avoid. Not to say that some don’t do exactly as your skit. But, Brompton’s lineup filters quite nicely on the three questions I’ve noted. And as such, makes the case easily for the 12 speed and whatever other factors the customer considers.
Digging your channel… I never comment this much. Keep up the solid content 🫡
Thank you for the in-depth comment my friend and all very very valid. The skit was certainly over the top and have no doubt its done the way you have outlined above. However I do feel a customer would get a shock if that is there first bike in a while. Thanks of supporting the content 👌🏻
Brompton should have developed a 6, 8, or 10-speed hub, the derailleur adds weight & complexity. And there are too many Brompton models, what is the point of the P-line? And over £4,000 on a bike which lacks disc brakes is OTT. Brompton are trading on the goodwill of the past.
I do think they need a larger IGH imo. People love the IGH and its proved itself over time
Sturmey-archer already has a 6 and 8 speed hub Brompton could buy off the rack. They just refuse to bite into the huge profit margins they make per bike so instead have saddled us with a bodged and heavy dual derailleur/hub system because it's cheap.
Seems less than idealistic to contend with both crankset and hub traditional derailers/cassettes on a folding bike!
Rohloff hubs are INTERNALLY INDEXED!
Two Rohloff hubs here on my Hase Lepus delta planform trikes (70Y.O. senior here with limited mobility/no balance).
Internal gear indexing on a folder is literally over-the-top in logic!
Once a Rohloff, never again a cassette. No affiliation here.
I've still to test one myself but I know loads of folk that have them and swear the same as you!! They would never go back. Thanks for supporting
THANKS A LEAST YOU WERE HONEST...........AS FOR ME I AM OFF TO CHINA FOR ONE OF THOSE CHEAPER (LEGAL COPIES THAT WILL LAST ONLY A COUPLE OF YEARS, FUNNY I CAN SEE THE COVENT GARDEN STORE FROM HERE, WOULD LOVE TO STEP IN & LOOK ABOUT BUT DO NOT WANT MY MIND FRIED.
lol brillant mate! Good luck with the replica
Lairn to rade in a C-lane bake.
It’s always good to know my strong Scottish accent translates perfectly 👌
@@TheBromptonGuy I've been watching the outlander series where James speaks in a similar accent and I just recognized it. The celtic accent is indeed very distinguishable, specially for me who learnt english as a second language focused on the american accent.
must be trying to sell this to EVERYONE in san francisco hills tech. and 6k is just too cheap.
Yeah maybe a senior board member moved to San Fan and said "You know what we need"
Does a Brompton really need 120 inch top gear? That is very high. I don't even have that on my full size gravel and touring bikes! Bottom gear also seems like a missed opportunity. Something closer to 20 inches rather than 30 would be much better as a granny gear. I guess users will be changing to a smaller front chainring to get the gearing more realistic.
Thats a problem with all brompton options. If I were to have a brompton store, I would install 44t on all bikes instantly - having a demo bike with such a high granny gear is offputting
Indeed! That’s what I do for events is just change the front ring down to a 40t. Yeah lowers my AVG speed a little and my max speed sucks on minor descents but I always see my sportives as marathons and not sprints
Needs to be lighter. The entire point of a Brompton is it’s fold size and portability.
Yeah I always question these days where that’s sits on Bromptons priority’s
I’m too fat for a Brompton. :(
Aren't we all my friend 🤣. I certainly find it harder these days compared to younger self.
Initially thought 12 speed would be superfluous for electrifying, but after testing 12, 6 and 4 electrics, the 12 was brilliant! Electric on the lowest gears was awesome on the flats getting up to and maintaining 15.5mph
Great video with good explanation, glad you put the Rolloff scenario within the video, as mentioned in other comments I’ve made with other videos you’ve done , you mentioned Brompton have listened to consumers? Having contacts in many countries around the world all the Brompton owners are hoping that they have a belt drive system as you mentioned with Rolloff = one internal unit with 11 or 14 gears with one shifter no chain no derailed system = a bike for all with no maintenance, also mentioned that every bike manufacturer with mountain, electric, touring, year on year over the last four years the increase of belt drive system that they’ve introduced has gone up 30% over the chain drive systems, at this rate over the next four years the chains will start to be less sales than belt drive systems, how easy is it go into a shop for a Brompton all have belt drives the only difference will be weight factor, so don’t know who are Brompton asking questions too maybe a discussion in house around the coffee machine, the smart money would be to ask Rolloff to make a internal rear hub that would fit the existing Brompton triangle with the shifter, first order 100 thousand units probably sell them in the first week , want new bums on Brompton’s that is the way to go = open up a whole new market to people who would buy the bikes, I struggle to understand why Brompton can’t actually see this maybe start have decaffeinated coffee for better ideas.
I honestly hope one day I get to review a 14 speed belt drive bike for you 🤞🏻
@@TheBromptonGuy you and me both.
I don't think Brompton will do a belt driven bike or a wider range hub anytime soon, and I think this is because they have only introduced the Adanced Rear Frame a couple of years ago. So for the next few years it will just be the "Advanced" range of stuff and any revisions to that, much more cost effective to use all the same parts currently in use and add few new things (new sturmey archer hub). Wouldn't make much sense for Brompton to develop a new rear frame to accomodate a different IGH and belt (which would need some kind of opening to allow for removal of the belt) and shifter for that as well.
My thought is that something like an Alfine/Rohloff and belt might make something like a c-line cost as much as a p-line? And with that kind of price difference it's kind of the same with you buying a 2spd c-line and then getting a custom rear frame built and hub installed.
Ideally Brompton would develop something like this at somepoint, but I don't know how soon that might come. The T-line (and in development G-line) show that Brompton are willing to experiment though, so who knows it might be sooner that I think.
@@MP_PapHew You of course could be correct, personally I hope you are wrong , there is already a system in place regarding a belt drive and the pulley release system when folding just check out the shop in Scotland all is already done along with one shifter for the 11Alfine or Rolloff 14 gears , having looked at the bike manufacturers as a complete unit the increase of belt drive systems are bringing more people into cycling that had been put off with chain drive, 30% more belt drives across the markets over five years , over the next few years it will over take chains, in my humble opinion the thing that Brompton is not seeing or doesn’t want to see because they have completely lost the plot in making ownership of a Brompton simple, so many variations now it’s embarrassing, with over a million bikes sold and a average of 70 thousand bikes made each year it would make sense to have at least one conversation with Rolloff as an example and say how much if you back engineer the 14 gear hub to fit our triangles new version and old version to to see how much it would cost , I know if I was in their position it would be a phone call worth having, I think they are missing a very big opportunity, they did say they had spoke to the owners of Brompton’s and asked what they would like = that why they came up with the twelve speed , so I did my own survey, so I spoke to my contacts in the UK, Japan , South Korea, Indonesia, Thailand, Hong Kong, America, Brazil , Germany, France , Everyone mentioned why didn’t they look at a belt drive, plus all said that it would increase sales especially with females because lots just don’t like chain systems, must said no oil and the maintenance would be none existent , many also mentioned at one time bike shops sold Brompton now it’s centre like the Brompton junction shops and have only concern on sales but no idea about fixing them, having a belt drive would also sort that issue out , so in conclusion I really do think Brompton have berried their heads in the sand and their bums are sticking up = at least we have somewhere to park our bikes , you mentioned G-line = not heard of this item = can you give some details? You will need several whiskers to get through the longest message in the history of messages.
@@KavanOBrienI also agree that Brompton have gone away from being a simple folding bike. The extra colours are quite nice, but there are so many! For each line too. The T-Line is nice in that regard where it kind of is the most simple Brompton at the moment.
Ben Kinetics and Eerder Metaal have definitely shown that wider range IGHs and belt driven Bromptons are possible. I agree that there is a market for it but I don't think it would fit the way Brompton currently do things, the 12 speed is a good example of this. Ideally, Brompton would do a derailleur system (like a seven speed or so) and then maybe make use of the 5 speed Sturney Archer hub (or a Rohloff/Alfine). This would make for a line with an efficient lightweight drivetrain and another with a heavier but wider range drivetrain. Ideally this is what Brompton would do but for the moment what they are currently doing "works" and does so for most people.
As for the G-Line. Brompton have been developing/prototyping (for several years now) a 20" bike with disc brakes, electric and non-electric. Whether this will come to fruition as an actual product, I don't know. The motor was in the rear wheel so the gearing system must be different.
I don't know why they wouldn't simply make a 11-speed Alfine model. Simple to change gears, wide range, low maintenance, and (especially compared to Rohloff), much less expensive. The new 12-speed is effectively like a triple chainring set-up with a 4-speed cassette. It just doesn't make sense.
Exactly!
There certainly is no technical reason. My bet is they can control the margins more easily. Shimano as a supplier can choose the bike brands they work with. I would imagine sturmey archer is more inclined to keep brompton as a customer.
Have you forgotten that Brompton is British?
@@davidhunternyc1 What does that have to do with the price of fish?
Honestly, I don’t understand why Brompton doesn’t collaborate with Rohloff to get a high quality hub into their bikes. Both companies seem to share pretty similar philosophies based on quality and tradition. It would be a very good match.
That skit was hilarious. "Give me a fixed gear bike with a drum brake."
Thank you! I enjoyed it very much myself. Thanks for supporting
I have to ask you a question. I know brompton are discontinuing the 6 speed. But! Given a choice between the 6 speed and the 12 speed which would you go for? I've got a beautiful 6 speed in Flame Laqueur...never had so much fun on a bike. I've recently test ridden a 12 speed and my immediate thought was too much faffing about. I just don't understand why they can't have a 8 speed nexus hub and do away with the 4 and 2 speed derailleur. You'd have brilliant gearing, no faff and vertually zero maintenance.ñ
I agree with all your points for sure! If I had to pick one brompton it would be the 6 speed cause I know it does everything well and the front ring can be changed if you need more or less
As an owner of a now much modified, with so many new titanium and carbon parts, and - lighter, now a very much former version of a 2019 SuperlightM6LXBrompton, I honestly wouldn't know what to use a lower gearing than my present for?
Only - once I have met a hill on which I, on top, had to - walk to continue, after initially having wondered for what use I had the low gears, of my 6??
And a Brompton isn't exactly a Racing Bike, so a higher gearing than my present, when going downhill again, mostly, would also be rather absurd (Just let it roll going down!)!
And on top of that having to find out what gears to use from this rather complicated and illogical gear system?
But my present and superlight MTB has 33 possible gears to chose from and I can't even start in my low gears on a flat road and get - riding speed, so it may be an option for some/the few with a need to ride up a wall, or down again 🙃? Finn. Denmark
Think they misread the feedback, a single rear hub with more gears would in my view be better. I love my 6speed commuter brompton but trying to explain the gearing of Minus/Plus 1-2-3 or 1 Minus, 1 Plus, 2 Minus, 2 Plus, 3 Minus and 3 Plus … you can see their facial expression “eh what?” Trying to explain Left 1-2-3-4 and Right 1-2-3 …. Not a chance 😂
I currently have a 6 speed and an Alfine 11 Brompton. The Alfine gears are amazing and v similar to the 12 speed in range. The Alfine goes brilliantly but it is too heavy to repeatedly carry up and down stairs. So the new 12 speed gives the gears I’m looking for, but at the weight of my 6 speed. What’s not to like…..thanks for your film.
Is that correct (weight)? I'd have thought the Alfine (1700g) would be a similar weight to the total weight of the 3-speed BWR IGH (930g) plus 4-speed cassette set-up? (Can't find any weight data online for the latter, though)
Super Video. I own 2 Bromptons, one 3 gear hub with mountain drive and one electric, with a mix of derailleur and hub gears. I could have purchased cheaper bikes, cheaper bikes with more gears, lighter bikes, electric bikes going 100km. But, I like the versatility of a Brompton. Throw it in the trunk of your car, take it on a train, to the supermarket and easily keep up with other bikes in terms of speed on my commute - great conversation piece. Why do I have 2 though? Initially, I was planning to sell my non-electric Brompton, because the electric covers all I need. It rides like a charme with the motor disengaged, so I use the battery for the lights mainly. But, once in a while, I like the peace of mind having the option of support. So, for me I have all I need.
Why did I not sell my non-electric Brompton? It's a workhorse, 14 years old and never failed me. Nothing to fiddle with, just some basic maintenance. So, my journey would probably go more in the direction of 1 gear :)
One would assume that any bike buyer has a value system in mind that starts with must haves (e.g. versatility, portability, low maintenance), nice to haves (e.g. gearing, low weight) and bells and whistles (like bells, lights and all stuff that can be dealt with later.) Cheers, Chris
Great comment Chris and thanks for sharing. Loved the last section and while not on my list I do enjoy a bike that requires tweaking and refinements over time so maybe the 4 speed p line is perfect for me 😬
Dutch Bloker Naked bike has a coaster brake hub with two gears, 27.5” wheels, I wish the Brompton also had such a hub then no longer had brake cables and a dirty chain (drive belt) but would have a bit lighter weight... I'll think about it to convert an old Brompton myself, but I wonder how hard I pedal with 16" instead of 27.5" wheels
I have owned quite several Bromptons over the years, and we currently have 5 in a household of 2 ;-)
We have not purchased any new ones after the change in naming to xyz-line, so the preferred model on my part is the S6E which I use for dry weather commuting and races.
I have raced in mountains (Alps and Pyrenees) as well as longer distance rides (London-Surrey 100miles, Vätternrundan 300km etc.) and I honestly do not see any need for more gears within this range. When riding in the mountains I use the 50T and otherwise, the 52T is fine.
The main attraction of the Brompton is the combination of compact fold for bringing it on trains, planes, and into buildings, and the fact that it is such an efficient and well-thought-out bike. (Also priceless satisfaction when overtaking road bikes during a race)
Love this comment and agree with all the points!!
Unless you have sport damaged knees where more gears eases load on the knees....
I just ordered my first Brompton. 12 speed, full on P-Line. There is no looking back.....
It's an amazing bike. Once you get used to the gearing it's without question the best Brompton for the money. And will get you up steep hills. Which other bromptons with only 1--4 gears won't.
Congrats!! You'll many happy rides on it I'm sure. Biggest choice is always the colour way
I've owned my 3 speed brompton since 2009. The gears work so well year after year and it has not yet had a single service. I´ve used it extremely much. 3 speed option is a little bit heavy, overall, but still today the best set up over time.
Completely agree! Built to last and minimum maintenance as you state
I had a 12spd using a Brommie plus 4spd cassette body on a BWR hub. Honestly didn’t like it. Worked very well, but I didn’t enjoy using it.
Didn't even know that was an option but makes sense. Standard Brompton behind the curve 🤣
Too many moving parts. Why can't they just make a traditional 1x8, 1x10, or 1x12?
Suppose they like to try an be fancy and sell something different🤷🏻♂️
Brompton refuses to pay sturmey-archer for their 6 or 8 speed hubs because it would effect the huge margins they make per bike. They'd rather keep costs rock bottom and stick on an over-complicated, heavy and bodged derailleur (but very very cheap).
Bit strange to knock a company for offering a choice.
I wouldn't say I'm knocking the company at all and think the overall idea is great. Just sharing my opinion.
Bring on the 20"...waiting.....
You managed to confuse me with your explanation of the 12 speed gearing, and I’ve ridden a few thousand miles on my S6L!
I’d love to try a 12 speed and like you I’d really like a T line 12 but you can get a lot more bike elsewhere for that kind of money (if you ignore the fold of course).
I’ve come to the conclusion that my perfect Brompton would involve getting a P Line delivered to Ben at Kinetics for a Rohloff conversion, then shipping it to Cambridge for an Arcc electric kit to be fitted. 😂
"if you ignore the fold" that is very funny.
we share a similar dream bike 😁
Great reflexion on the brand strategy! I owned a 6 speeds for more than 10 years, with a 54chain ring to race at the BWC. quite happy with the range - got really use to the weird combination of shifting, Just bought a Pline 4 speeds and look for 3 different upgrade options: 1- Dual chain ring 54/33 (cf Brilliant bikes video), surely the worst practical one - but that's part of the fun, lightest option. 2- add a fith sprocket and sram shifter, 3- get the new hub for the 12 speed. (a bit heavier). But was so waiting for a bike that rule them all. And Alfine approach would be great, but that's not Brompton, so not sure they will use this option § even if we understand there will be a 20 inch, disc brake new line in September...- overall such a fan of these bikes! `so fun to race with road bikers who don't expect to be taken over by a baby bike! 😅
Very much agree with your last racing comment and overtaking full size bikes. Next year I’m going to try a double chainring on my bike and will begin researching for the best solution next year
Lol. Love the mock scenario. That is a big reason why ppl might grab a Tern c8 Link. Disc breaks. Straight shifting. Adjustable stem. Reasonable fold. . And all of the generic parts. But this is also why I am thinking 3-spd interal A Line. As a roadie 12 gears appeals but not at that cost or complication. 😁
Yeah it needs to be straight shifting for sure! So many other companies offer it so still blows my mind. I would honestly say best value is the two speed C line mate
I enjoyed the sales simulation. It was an all-too real classic example of someone trying to sell features rather than benefits.All these technical issues (gearing, handlebar, c line, p- line, t line) are things that the salesperson should be sorting through initially in their own mind as they listen to the client.
But the best thing is to simply get the client sitting on a bike as quickly as possible so they get acquainted. The technical stuff can be sorted through as the client handles the bikes.
I think Brompton made the same error on their website when they introduced this new 12 speed. “More gears” is a feature, “more range” is a benefit but slightly unclear. There are more benefits to gearing than “range”.
Great input so thank you. You know the more I use my p line 4 speed it makes me hate the shifting cause I’m consistently having to tweak it about once a week. They now most likely made a bike that will require so much more service than ever.
Here’s a spanner in the works for you: Add a Kinetics rear triangle to a T-Line with a Rohloff 14-speed hub to any 16” rim, problem solved, ish 😂
I think Brompton are starting to lose their way a bit, the traditional non-cyclist wants simplicity which is why the M3L (C-Line Urban Mid) sold so well: 1st gear to start in, 2nd gear for the flat, 3rd gear for downhill or faster than 2nd. The new 12-speed has two overlaps in its range from 4th to 5th (where 4th is higher than 5th) and another two from 8th to 9th (where 8th is higher than 9th) giving 4 unusable and/or redundant gears dependant on whether going up or down the gearing, and is failing into the trap that multi-derailleur systems have always had, exactly what IGH systems avoid in the first place.
Prior to a Rohloff setup, the simplest multi-gear system I’ve seen was a Kinetics build for a guy with an H3R (C-Line Urban High) by simply fitting a Stronglight triple chainset, giving 9 speeds via two handlebar shift levers: left shifter for chainset and right shifter for the hub as usual.
The Rohloff T line is a dream of mine that I hope is fulfilled one day 🤞🏻
What a bike it would be!!! One bike to rule them all…
That is without a doubt the dream!! The question is will I ever own it one day 🤔. Dream big they say
I have the problem with the lower cog on the P Line.
I hope they offer an upgrade path for current P Line 4 Speeds owners to 12 Speeds. Here in SEA, some companies offer an after market 7 speed option.
I have seen the after market 7 speed and I was very interested!! Just can’t keep spending money on Brompton things 🤣.
I’m pretty sure you could buy the hub, shifter and cable separately and it would work.
When it comes to buying a brompton I only care what colour you have 😅
It is important to the true love of it IMO
I was rolling on the floor with laughter. Valuable information wrapped into the bake.
Scottish accent at its finest my friend 🤪. However I do like to bake
I think the big problem with Brompton is that everything is overly complex and parts compatibility isn't all that good.
I think more people would buy in if you could buy an A-line priced bike and everything that comes on the dearer bikes was available to upgrade later and currently that's not the case and some changes seem arbitrary that lock you out of some options.
That is certainly a valid input and do agree. Even buying something as simple as a brake cable can be complex cause you need to buy Brompton specific ones
@@TheBromptonGuy Well an issue is you really don't but they tell you that you do.
There's also that weird thing that they tell you can't fit their integrated brake and shifter levers for a pre-17 bike when you absolutely can. You just need to replace the the derailleur tensioner thing with the new type - but then they do this whole thing of hiding how long the cables are so you don't know what to buy.
Your bit on explaining gearing to someone seems deliberately overly complicated and intended to make their eyes glaze. I could do that explaining camera exposure triangle or telescope options, or I could give a proper easy to understand explanation. It's all the presentation; my job involves translating very complex issues to a form most people could easily comprehend...granted it took years to learn how to do that, but now that is my default mode on everything....break it down and don't make their eyes glaze.
Frankly, the Brompton 12 speed electric looks like a good idea and I look forward to trying it. Why electric?... hills and torn knee meniscus.
Edited for tyos
It is deliberately over complete yes! As said in the video was going to over dramatise it. I could most certainly do an easier version and simplest would be to explain it like a triple front ring, was simply highlighting that they've made something that ideally would be explained as "You shift from 1 to 12, that is all" Similar to 12 speed internal hubs.
I don't want anyone to think that this is a bad idea cause it certainly isn't and these will sell well IMO just highlighting my initial thoughts.
Thanks for watching
@@TheBromptonGuy True, although in some ways uphill 1-4, normal terrain 1-4, Downhill/Speed 1-4 is simpler than sequential 1-12 because of being grouped by use, plus you can drop from regular to uphill group while stopped at a light (since so many folks forget to downshift as they come to a stop). But again, it's all point of view. 😉🙃
The issue of the jumping on the small cog on the P/T RD is I believe as follows.
Unlike a normal RD the tension pulley isn't attached to the guide pulley; instead they are both separate and the tension pulley is move side to side on a steel shaft by the guide pulley and the chain between them. Why does that matter? Well, in the small sprocket position the RD both the cable tension and the derailleur arm return spring tension are at their minimum. So minimal, in fact, that the RD is floppy enough to be jostled around by the tension pulley and not the other way around (tail wagging the dog). Subsequently if you are on bumpy ground the usual thrashing around of the chain will shake the tension pulley side to side which will in turn move the guide pulley. And the only way it can go is jump to the second cog for a bit before the spring tension moves it back down again.
(I'm currently redesigning the RD for my bike so have gone way too deep into this!)
This is brilliant and well described my friend. Very worthy of a pin!! Thanks for sharing
@@TheBromptonGuy Thanks. I'm not 100% sure that's the case. But it's noteworthy the issue exists on all derailleurs that have the separate sliding tension pulley (first and third party). Something I've tested extensively.
What is the point of not riding the bike?
You mean cause I've not rode it?
What's this bake he's talking about?
Short was baking cupcakes at the time of recording this 🫣 #Scottish
Really informative video, enjoyed the skit too.
Would you say the regular 4 speed T-Line is capable of touring at all? Also, are there any advantages it might have over the 12 speed?
Weight is the obvious saving!! The 4 speed also come with a lovely sounding freehub which will most likely roll better (IMO). However its build for speed so yes while you could use it for touring it just wouldn't cut the mustard like a 12 speed unless you're in great shape 🤣
@@TheBromptonGuy thanks for sharing your opinion on this. I own the 4 speed T-Line and yes it is pretty quick, but I am still trying to understand if I can do things such as a 'London to Paris' trip with it, similarly to you.
I'm here, I'm watching!
Always on point mate! Thank you
According to the Brompton site, the Electric C-Line also has 12 speeds.
Yes sorry that is correct and now realising that I forgot to edit that section of the video!! Will Pin this comment when I’m home BUT YES 12 SPEED ELECTRIC C LINE ALSO
The rear triangle is the difference between p-line electric and c-line electric. So the c-line rear triangle is fully developed, brompton just tries to push people to buy the expensive bikes if you ask me
He’s the Brompton guy!
So listen to him 🚴♂️
I love this!!
@@TheBromptonGuy 🚴🏿👍🏻
I think the Sturmey S-RF5(w) internal hub would be the best option for most people, but that’s not a stock option. Plus I know it is apparently a bit finicky to adjust.
Just researched it a certainly looks like a reliable middle ground 👌
Allegedly, the 8-speed variation, the S-XRF8 is also a bit finicky.
8 speed has direct drive on gear 1 whereas 5 speed has direct drive on gear 3. That seems very different. I prefer to use direct drive to take the weight of gear pawls. Is that correct? Is this difference significant from riding perspective ? Do both these hubs fit the standard rear triangle or do I need to go to Kinetics?
Do the S-RF5's need to be adjusted if they're used with a single speed ?
@@stolenorangethe adjustment is for the internal hub shifter cable, not the chain.
you talk funny. no ne in tennessee talks this way? is it english?
They speak English in Tennessee?
Scottish English 🤣
He’s Scottish. We’ve had problems with them for years. And I have Scottish blood! 😂