Thanks for watching! Ultimate had some pretty substantial patches and there were a _lot_ of characters who came close to being included in the video (I ended up cutting the honourable mentions section down because it was just too much lol), but if you think there's anyone who definitely deserved a slot, let me know! *Main channel:* th-cam.com/users/mockrocktv *Twitter:* twitter.com/MrMockRock *Patreon:* www.patreon.com/mockrock *Twitch:* www.twitch.tv/mockrocktwitch *Teespring:* teespring.com/stores/mockrock *TimeBolt affiliate link* (excellent software I use to speed up editing on my videos, use code "MOCKROCK" for a discount): mockrock--timebolt.thrivecart.com/order-page/
Unrelated but as a fellow Dark Pit main, I've got to know. Do you think nair is DP's best move despite all of it's flaws or do you think something like bair takes it
i'm definetly biased but honest to God falco might've had the best buff in 8.0.0 down tilt combos better with the sour spot comboing forever and the sweet and middle spot killing a lot earlier as well as being 2 frames faster up smash kills earlier, is WAYYYYY bigger (seriously look it up the change is ridiculous), and can hit BEHIND HIM now nair now connect more reliably and is WAYYYY bigger on the last hit dair has less end lag and landing lag which makes it an even better combo move and 2 frames safer on shield grounded side b is 5 frames faster and lasts 3 frames longer as well as being 5 frames safe on shield aerial side b lasts 3 frames longer i honestly think falco got dealt the best hand especially the down tilt and up smash changes
Diddy Kong as well, I don't remember in which patch they buffed it, but his up b on launch was absolutely awful, it barely went any further than little mac's upward.@@Migota_
With how much content you put out for Smash's older content, you really should consider grabbing a hacked switch. They can revert to older versions of Smash so you can view direct comparisons, such as that Incineroar revenge example. Hell Id send you my spare if you pay for my original switch cost, just so we can get that perfect training room footage.
Patch 8.0 was so beyond crucial it makes up half the list. Someone on the dev team was clearly taking notes on who needed substantial reworks and DELIVERED. You love to see it
I don't know what the 8.0 mindset was but damn they knew what they were doing. Giving Mewtwo a combo throw, Ike a rework, Falcon some pretty nice combos from Raptor Boost and Incineroar....damn near anything it wanted in the same patch is wild.
If I remember correctly I think at some point during 7.0 the Japanese players got together and made a tier list video discussing character strengths and weaknesses. Can't remember much else other than that was the only time they made a tier list video. That might have also been one factor on how the devs decided on balance changes for 8.0
Idk if it was patch 8 or 9 but bro the devs buffed the low tiers such as little mac having more damage to sheild, incineroar having his moves buff and doctor mario having his down b buff. I also think ganon was on it, im not sure but my friends popped off(mainly me cuz i main incin) cuz holy shit we got wat we needed
I think he didn't include Bayo for the same reasons as Corrin: her buffs are bit too spread out to qualify for the list. Patch 8.0 is easily her most substantial buff patch, but patch 3.1 and especially patch 12.0 (the one that made jab a kill move) also provided noteworthy improvements.
A big part of that is because of being a hard character and not being anywhere near her peak strength so it took a long time for people to realize she’s not garbage
@@Moon-nk3co My favorite thing has to be forward tilt. For all intents and purposes that dinky little kick forward should not be evaporating stocks like it did but it did and it was glorious.
@@DoMorrMusicfair enough but there's always room for improvement Also I just mentioned those 3 because they're the main ones yall know that they're far from the *only* problematic ones
I know. We can't expect patches forever of course, but only one balance patch after Sora feels like them just ditching as soon as they could. They could have done at least two patches even if months apart just to fix some of the issues that popped after Sora's release and tune some of the characters that still feel "off" even in a casual setting.
@@Breeze926 yeah like there's no way they saw Marth's dancing blade and down smash hitboxes and said they were fine. It's so disappointing as a Marth fan. Also why does Isabelle suuuuck
They really should’ve dedicated one more year solely to balancing the game after Sora. They literally dropped a shitload of characters who change the way the game is played during a pandemic and then dipped. It’s a shame because this game is so close to perfection, too.
@@Mr__Jack yeah and then Sakurai is gonna make a YT and talk about how "good" his Smash Ultimate design is while ignoring so many flaws. It's such a big punch in the face.
Doc deserves a mention, they gave him insane buffs in both 7.0.0 and 13.0.0 which made most of his combo moves do more damage without breaking their combo potential or made them able to combo in the first place.
He's actually one of the characters I ended up cutting out of honourable mentions for time, I do agree that they were some REALLY nice improvements that make him feel more functional and complete as a character
@@MrGameguyC 7.0 had more meaningful improvements, but it's like what he mentioned about the buffs being split. The main things were up-b getting more knockback growth, down-tilt getting actual combos (it was almost useless before 7.0), but 13.0 still did the great up-air damage buff which helps making his combos more dangerous. The other buffs weren't as impactful but still improved his gameplan, like dair getting more active frames in 7.0 and 2 frames less startup in 13.0 or late nair getting more damage and knockback, which both helped with landing and edgeguarding.
I think Bayonetta should've been a honourable mention. I remember her not being very good at the start of Ultimate due to what she did in Smash 4, and now she's considered to be pretty strong after a bunch of buffs, even winning a major just recently, and has a strong playerbase across the globe.
Pikachu was just way less popular but should've also been made bigger. I think it's one of the few last remaining atrociously small characters that never got touched and in this case in particular flew under the radar w/little data to go on for most of the game's lifespan
esam constantly saying pikachu is broken had the oposite affect. it made people think hes overated and doesnt need a nerf when he needed one all along.
Kirby's buffs were phenomenal and he wouldn't be the same without them! Highlights: F-tilt became a kill move, nair/up air became faster AND became kill moves, Fair does more damage and kills earlier, down smash is faster and stronger (which makes dair rides worth going for), dash attack became bigger and stronger, up smash sweet spots are easier to hit, and inhale is faster and Kirby retains his copies longer.
I am SO GLAD that they patched Mewtwo's down throw into a combo starter... I would _always_ instinctively try to combo it into forward air before the patch. It just felt like it should have worked, but it just didn't... But now it does, and it feels _good!_
Same, before the patch I really tried to figure out what to do with down throw, I ended up using it for plat tech chase setups. The cool thing is that it's still not fully always a true combo throw, the DI dependance makes it a fairly balanced change since you can let it rip early if they're not ready or pummel for the mash to mess up the DI
Sheik's changes were really cool too. Made her play a lot differently than her Sm4sh counterpart, going from fair trains and grab kill confirms to uair loops and needle confirms, and fleshed out some of her other moves like dtilt and dsmash got some added niches, which were also complimented by better setups in uair and needles. Landing needle confirms are soooo sick, feels like what this character should always be able to do.
On my hands and knees begging they make all these burst option detection type moves (raptor boost, upper dash arm etc) have their hitboxes activate on frame 1 of finding a target in the next game. Its like frame 2 or 3 for pit and peach but something crazy like frame SIX on falcon. Characters like lucina can deadass just walk in the opposite direction and have it miss and they never patched it. I don't even care about the armour activating late. The hitbox being late is criminal
You can even see Falcon side b detection failing to hit Yoshi in his 30 second character trailer when Yoshi leans back for grounded down b lmao. That tiny bit of hurtbox shifting is all a move needs to avoid Falcon side b. It makes waay more sense why characters with fast enough walk speeds or thin enough bodies can simple turn around and walk away to avoid falcon side b. It reminds me of Brawl Sonic homing attack and how terrible the lock-on was for it.
Some of the swinging animations would look weird if they were instant, though. Maybe just put the target in hitstun once the activation hitbox has connected.
They really sent the idea of Pichu being high tier into the Pokemon Ranch upstate. It's probably for the best this tiny little gnat isn't zipping around comfortably only to send you to the next dimension by poking its foot out but dammit I still think keeping Pichu the way he was would've been really funny.
Shoutout to when they removed Dedede's shield break. Cause f-smash taking a full second to come out wasn't enough, it needed a 0% hitbox to compensate smh
I think the only buff i'd make to my main (Rosalina) is make it harder to send Luma into tumble so people cant just cheese luma early and force her to play without it so often
I think a good change would be to make Luma less vulnerable while Rosa is shielding. So many safe aerials can kill luma by hitting it through Rosa’s shield and it’s really weird that it works that way. It’s also really unfortunate because when luma gets hit, even unsafe aerials become unpunishable, since luma up smash is Rosa’s best out of shield option.
@@Chillaccino1 actually I think my favorite potential buff for Rosa would be to make landing fair safer, and work as a drag down combo starter. That’d be huge
22:21 Ult's in a very weird grey spot with it's characters. Many of them feel kinda undercooked, but also the playerbase (IMO) isn't trying nearly hard enough with them. But that's probably not as new as it sound given the recent rise of Melee DK's.
Ult's kinda a simple game, and a ton of the cast is paper thin. Don't know how much farther you can push characters who have next to no tech and simplistic combo routes.
It was one of the later updates but I think Mii Swordfighter in 12.0.0 deserves a mention. Gale Stab used to just not be a move and now it's chosen for the side B slot quite often. It's not very often that the actual behaviour of a move is changed and not just the numbers.
I feel like a little Mac should at least get a mention considering his forward smash would just almost break a shield immediately if aimed downward, and will if charged a bit and his up tilt went from one of the worst in the game to a terrifying combo and kill confirmer
Kinda wierd to not see mii brawler in here. He's is another char that got MASSIVELY buffed over all the patch cycle of ult. Its kinda the reason why hes that high nowaday on people's minds. They gave him the killing power to trupper, they reduced the landinglag of nair and bair, reduced the startup of flashing mach puch by a lot, and many other changes. The sad part is that they still didnt fix his fair from not autocanceling after being there since 1.0.0 :( Great vid as always!
I want to bring your attention to (in my opinion) one of the biggest nerfs in the game, Mega Man in 2.0. Pre-patch Mega Man was known for one thing: the Macro cancel. This was a tech that allowed Mega Man to cancel any of this grounded pellets into anything he wanted just by buffering a jump with another action. This was huge because pellets are a core part of Mega Man’s kit so being able to do whatever you wanted out of them was insane. The best part of this tech was being able to cancel pellets into z-drop metal blade. With this, you could INFINITE people until kill percent. Sure this tech was difficult to do, but if mastered it turn Mega Man into one of the best characters in the game. Or that would be the case; had this not been patched out in 2.0 which came out a month after launch. Now this nerf didn’t ruin Mega Man, but it did ruin his potential and as a result the character barely exists in the modern meta.
I’m very surprised that Ken and Ryu were just an honorable mention. I remember how people reacted when Ken became an actual character who would touch of death you.
Yk there's a couple gripes I have with the patch notes of Ultimate, but it can be summarized as two things: A: Why were patch notes not utilized to further distinguish echo fighters, especially since they went and patched out the differences that Peach and Daisy had. B: Why didn't they continue to do patch notes past 13.0.2 when this is clearly the kind of game that needs post DLC patches, as with pretty much any fighting game.
A. Why would they devote time to tweaks values to differentiate echo fighters in the same game where they specifically created the moniker to get people to stop bitching about clones? B. Because the game has to be finished at some point and the balance team had ironed out all the major balance issues they had in the limited amount of time they had with the project. The dev team at Bandai Namco has to move onto other projects at some point. ( Tekken 8 )
@@dragnjames2190I agree so much. Echoes arent supposed to be that different and they are especially not supposed to eat up Dev time from other characters
@@dragnjames2190To be fair, the distinction hasn't really helped much has it? And they're perfectly fine eating dev time up to make a character *more* like the original in the case of Daisy and her turnips. They really didn't need to touch her at all.
These patches and especially that last part with Steve made me wonder if a Smash Ultimate Deluxe would ever be a possibility where it gets new patches and proper rollback. One could dream.
Finding out about dthrow fair in the first hour of 8.0.0 was magical It’s not just on heavyweights too, literally any character could just die at 80 if they get grabbed at ledge and don’t react in time to DI out. Which is actually very common because dthrow animation is wickedly fast
Nice to see Captain Falcon's buffs in 8.0 at the top of this list. Those were really big, I remember very well the big hype behind it, it was awesome, especially since Falcon was seen as very downgraded from Sm4sh early on in Ultimate.
While in the end I don't think ultimate patchnotes are awful, I feel like Smash 4 patchnotes were more impactful to the meta overall. Characters such as Mewtwo, Marth got much more impactful than any buffed character ever was in ultimate and it definitely felt like the devs at least kept trying balancing out the top tier, with patchs having a real impact on Sheik and Diddy's reign. And they at least tried to tone down bayo and cloud, which is much more than we can say about Aegis, Kazuya or Steve.
Love this video concept. Usually, when people make videos about Smash buffs or nerfs, it's complaining about what should be buffed and what should be nerfed. While I do think it's interesting and important to talk about that type of stuff, taking the time to point out all the times they hit the nail right on the head and appreciate the hard work that goes into balancing these games is great.
I feel like joker's down gun nerf going from 3 hitboxes to just 1 thin hitbox could've been mentioned. Leo started playing less around this time but either way I feel like this was a big nerf to a previously amazing move
The pichu ftilt nerf also has a good side Since the move has a 100% trip chance (lol), by reducing the knockback they made the windows for trip larger since it send in the air later !
I remember how in your second heavyweight video you talked about how ultimate's heavyweight were worse in practice than some of the heavies from previous games and now Incineroar is usually considered the best or second best heavyweight. King K rool though ....
I think Ultimate's modern interpretation of Heavyweights is really good, I just wish they actually didn't have safety in their kits so they can actually go really hard on their combat. Instead, make their "safety" be the fact that they are really hard to edgeguard without taking damage/losing a stock yourself.
An underrated pick but Young Link 7.0.0 buffs were really great for the character, and I still stand by that there is no way he is only a B+ on the tier list
It's kinda unfortunate for Ike. While the nair nerf was undoubtedly huge, the rework to the rest of his kit means that in a vacuum, he's technically the best he's ever been. But relative to the rest of the cast, he ended up being worse off and barely breaches mid tier for a lot of players. Out of this list, he seems the most unchanged while still having a lot of changes because he stayed in his lane while everyone else seems to have gotten noticeably stronger or weaker. But shoutouts to jab 3 being a KO move at high percents if he somehow doesn't get the KO by then lol
This was a super fun look back at the patch history! I still remember smash twitter going insane at what was realistically a slap on the wrist for Wario players ☠️
and there is Steve who hide his true power till the end and now Steve could use his full power with out worrying about nerf, except Nintendo decide to release a patch just to nerf Steve.
No, I remember screaming "Why? Why???" When reading 8.0.0's patch notes when that came out bc my cousin played Incineroar a lot and I struggled against him already. The fact that they so unnecessarily buffed side and up b, two of Incin's most devastating moves, to make them even MORE jank. It was demoralizing. My cousin called me that day too, he was like "did you see the buffs?" Ugh, dark times.
This is the curse of a lot of heavies: Making them competitively viable often means making them overpowered in casual play, primarily because at casual play, shielding and edgeguarding is much, much rarer in casual play compared to competitive play.
@@sharmakefarah2064? I play Marth, edge guarding is something he does, also shielding against Alolan Whip is completely ineffective, it's a command grab. What are you talking about
I'm surprised Mega Man wasn-t mentioned considering he had a really busted exploit where he could cancel Pellet lag into specials, as well as being able to do near instant metal blade zdrops from them, resulting in possible infinites which were quickly patched out
I would still honestly rather Pichu be top-tier than Pikachu, because Pichu has... literally any weakness whatsoever? And Pikachu has been in the upper half of the tier list for five games straight. The Rat has NEVER had to do so much as a single-patch stint in Low Tier Hell, something otherwise only the very late DLC characters can currently "boast". Its design is inherently pretty toxic due to having the combination of one of the smallest hitboxes in the game, excessively fast frame data, and an extremely obnoxious projectile that gets even worse on specific stages. Pichu's increased risk and reward at least makes it more interesting and puts a hard limitation on its ability to camp people out, especially with its drastically unsafe recovery due to Agility's lack of a hitbox. I'm sure people more well-versed in the meta will tell me that Pikachu does have some things that resemble weaknesses, but the ones I can think of all feel very "fake", like the "character flaws" of some amateur writer's Mary Sue. It's light... but not THAT light, and most of the other very light characters are easier to hit. Its projectile matters less in the top end of play, but by simple virtue of being a fast projectile it forces interactions, something many characters can't do at all. It doesn't have that much kill power, but what kill moves it does have are mostly extremely fast, so once kill percent is hit the enemy isn't long for this world.
Surprised there was no mention of 7.0.0 Cloud, I remember that being sort of the turning point for him since people didn't consider him super great before it. (For reference, it's the patch that made his dash attack a kill move, made his up smash faster and stronger, and made limit charge much faster.)
This came up with my Patrons as well and Cloud was actually a character I ended up cutting out of the honourable mentions section for time. That was absolutely a turning point for him, no question, but Cloud is still ultimately associated with amazing aerials above all and those weren't touched in any way.
I think patch 7.0 was really good for Samus too, they increased knockback on up smash, down smash, and upthrow. giving her an actual kill throw, a half decent smash attack for tech chases, and Upsmash is used in ledge setups. They also buffed her zair's damage, knockback, and (most of) it's consistency issues were also fixed. Now zair is a fundamental part of her kit, and helped bring her up arguably 10+ spots on the tier list.
You forgot that one patch where they fixed Diddy Kong's Up-b so the charging it actually helps you with vertical recovery. Yeah, prior to a patch charging Diddy's Up-b hurt your verical recovery
I think pit’s down throw is maybe one of the best in the game because if your at ledge and use down throw and the di in up air kills, if they di out fair and bair confirm and if they don’t you can still do so much with it also amazing for combos and reading opponents options it’s amazing at everything a throw can do
Yeah, that was a stupid buff to give, and he really needed fundamental reworks in his design to be much better designed as a character. It reinforced strong on ground, weak in the air, which is not good for Little Mac or his opponent.
@@sharmakefarah2064 I think they should’ve delivered on the strong ground game concept by just making his airspeed terrible, not by making his aerials and recovery terrible as well. If you look at a character like Jigglypuff, whose gimmick is being good in the air, they didn’t nerf her ground game by making all of her grounded moves near useless like Little Mac’s aerials (other than down tilt). All of them are useable moves, but they balanced it out by making her ground speed slower. Mac should’ve taken this approach as well, with aerials being useable, although not great. TLDR, They should’ve made his air game understated, instead of making it non-existent
I’m a little surprised Bayonetta wasn’t mentioned at all, every buff she received was impactful to where I would say she’s arguably the most buffed character in the game. Good list regardless 👍
Wow I’m so glad Pichu was nerfed! It’d be really boring to watch ultimate gameplay if a small electric rat was considered the best character in the game for the next few years! That would suck tbh
To be blunt, Pichu never would have been the best, and while I think Pichu may have needed nerfs, Pichu overall would have gotten worse as time went on, and his star was already falling before the nerf.
The Sonic up air change was what made Sonic a top tier. His damage output was supremely inconsistent because of up air not working and now he has a reliable out of shield on most of the cast that comboes into everything. I think it's crazy people don't talk about it more
Really surprised you didn’t put ROB on the list. Vanilla rob was not that good at all. And then they buffed sideb. And then they buffed it again. And then they buffed it again. And then they buffed some of his other moves. It was actually insane to be a ROB main at the release of ultimate
I was 100% expecting to see *THAT* Wii Fit Trainer shadowbuff in the honorable mentions. Intentional? No. Permanent? No. Game-changing for the week it was active? Absolutely.
Edit: I just found the exact video I was asking about so this comment no longer matters. I think there is more to talk about there though so a second video on the topic could be fun. Have you done a video on worst designed characters in smash ultimate? I don't mean low tier, but characters whose design objectively could be better, more fun, more interactive. Obviously design can be very subjective but I think the community has voiced enough opinions on certain aspects of some characters that its reasonable to say a lot of people think certain characters could have their designs improved. I'm also not even talking about characters matching their origin games, just whether or not their kit design and stat build work well in Smash and create a consistently fun character. Things like, Lucario's aura makes him hard to control at high damage, Little Mac being so bad in the air yet so strong on the ground that players often just throw him off stage, Ganondorf not having enough tools to compensate for his slow heavy build, Joker being so strong with Arsen that players sometimes just wait it out to fight normal Joker, Ice Climbers AI controlled character being inconsistent, Mewtwo's tail, etc. These may not be the worst things in the game just some points that come to mind.
7.0 Joker in my opinion is one of the most important patches in Ultimate history. Joker was a pretty unambiguous top tier character after his release. 7.0 nerfed 2 aspects that I absolutely adore. Downward Gun has more spread so when Joker is far from the opponent he's unlikely to hit with more than 1 of the 3 htiboxes. This really nerfed Joker's edgeguarding by making it so that opponents could actually recover against him, prenerf Joker could near infinitely keep some characters under the ledge and rack up hundreds of damage for free by just ledge cancelling downward gun infinitely. Joker could also land for free every time, with pre nerf Down Gun, one of the most impactful interactions in Ultimate and Joker just didn't need to deal with it. The other one was increasing the amount of meter Joker lost when Arsene was active. All in all this was about a 40% nerf to Joker's meter when he was taking damage. What I love about this patch was they nerfed a top tier pretty significantly in a really impactful way without making him feel awful, pre 7.0 and post 7.0 Joker feel the exact same to pilot unlike with Ivysaur and Pichu, Joker felt like a top tier before and after the changes but all the gimmicks and cheese Joker was doing to terrorize the meta at the time and not getting punished for playing poorly with Arsene was addressed. Definitely one of Ultimate's best character nerfs.
It's no exaggeration to say how much the 8.0.0 patch greatly benefitted Mewtwo While yes, the character still isn't super popular, the buffs all helped give Mewtwo: 1.) End stocks even more consistently thanks to Down Throw now being a combo tool on top of Up Air and Back Air having way more knockback 2.) Made their disadvantage slightly less bad thanks to being able to teleport back to the ground safely. 3.) And most significantly their neutral was improved DRASTICALLY thanks to uncharged Shadow Ball now being an extremely reliable bait option that's almost as annoying as Falco's laser ^_^
I definitely thought Young Link was going to at least be an honorable mention. His upsmash was buffed considerably to kil earlier, his forward throw was buffed and it became a fairly consistent kill throw at around 140% at ledge which is a big deal because it gave him a reliable kill option outside of his kill confirm window, Zair came out faster and the angle was changed so you can combo out of it. And up air was buffed to kill earlier as well.
Near the start villager got alot of buffs. Some moves like up tilt didnt even work. But yeah pit got a glow up bigtime. Pichu, ivy, and ike got nerfed a bit.
Pichu was a menace and definitely needed nerfed, but the devs basically used a sledgehammer to fix some loose nails. I miss pre-patch Pichu, she probably would be fine now compared to the extremely early meta
20:38 Marss' complaints really got to people. Her Nair still combos just fine and is still very safe on shield (-4), especially when spaced. (And she has the aerial mobility to abuse it) 2 extra startup frames on Boost Kick isn't a helpful change, but the grounded version always had low range and wasn't going to hit most well spaced moves either way, which only gets more common at higher levels. Yeah, this really isn't doing it for the "Small Changes, Big Nerfs" pick IMO. Failing to see how this was different then Wario.
a character that should at least be a honorable mention is Mii Brawler. Few people know this because it was early on and he was very underused at this point but he got a LOT of buffs on 2.0.0. Eleven to be exact, and crucially, bair & nair got their landing lag reduced while up air got its damage output & knockback buffed. This expanded his combo game a lot and with the additional buffs he then got in later patches, notably 4.0.0 making thrust uppercut stupidly good and flashing mach punch great, he could now be a top tier if he was more played.
Great video as always, though I do have a slight criticism. When showing the training mode comparisons between the new and old moves, I would have preferred if you labeled which was which because I sometimes had a hard time telling. Especially for the ones where it was only a slight change. Besides that very cool stuff 👍
man i remember better nerf greninja and buff the puff used to be the most common slogans back in the days of smash 4, quite nostalgic looking back. speaking of which i'd say king dedede had just as bad treatment as puff did in smash 4 as he only got NERFS throughout the game's patches(he only received a single buff to his down throw) also on the topic of falcon's list of buffs in ultimate i always found it funny how they managed to buff so much random stuff about him(and the thing is, these buffs did actually manage to help him quite a good amount unlike a few other characters) yet they did not manage to fix the problems with his turnaround dash, a very subtle yet quite impactful problem that he's dealt with since the launch of the game.
Definitely think Marth should have atleast been put into honorable mentions, his buffs focused directly on shoring up his weaker moves making them actually pretty damn good, most of the other buffs for characters strengthened the moves that were already considered among their best moves. That, and the primary thing people have complained about with Marth for ultimate’s lifespan is the consistency of his tippers, many of which got easier to hit (though I think most people weren’t trying hard enough even before).
One buff I would give to Ike to fix him a little is making the side special either reflect or at least hit and then cancel non-trascendent projectiles, I know it doesn't make much sense, but that alone would make Ike viable probably. Or make it so that you can angle it in the air to dodge some projectiles
This might be my bias as a Robin player, but when Terry came out they increased the rate at which the thunder spells charge. With how GOOD Thunder, Elthunder, and Arcthunder are, accessing them quickly allowed Robin's advantage state to be scary. I can charge an Arcthunder by the time a Roy runs at me from across most legal stages. That combined with how fast Levin Nair comes out now and Robin can actually have a fighting chance against some of the game's best characters.
it says a lot about how insane 8.0.0 was that diddy kong didnt get much of a mention here, obviously the infinite was patched out but he got some really interesting buffs too, i remember elite smash being filled with falcon and diddy at the time
21:00 to expand a bit more on the Zss changes for Nair, being less safe on shield sucked, but it also massively hurt her combo game. Her most notorious kill confirms, Nair - Flip Kick, became a much tighter window on the entire cast. others lkill confirms like Nair - Jump Flip Kick, and Nair Bair are pretty much non existent now, and they were important mid range kill confirms for her. Nair - up air chains are also much more difficult to land as well. For Boost Kick being a less potent out of shield option does blow. Again though for combos it really sucks. The nerf made Pretty much makes any ladder combos into it a lot less consistent. Then some other minor stuff like Small Paralyzer into Up B has less time to confirm, and stuff like Zair - Boost Kick became less consistent too.
Ike nerfs feel weird to me because I like the direction they took with it and I think the game wouldve benefited a lot from more rework patches but that isn't what we got. Most of the patches focused on doubling down on characters strengths which just makes it weird that they chose to nerf nair. They gave him a bunch of kill moves but it's arguably harder for him to consistently close out stocks in a game full of characters who are really good at doing that.
Ike's changes were good conceptually, but they revealed that the core design of the character is fundamentally flawed. His bullshit nair was the ONLY reason he was ever close to viable, and without that nair he would need a major kit overhaul to compensate. Either he needs his neutral tools buffed significantly across the board to let him safely win more interactions the honest way, or he needs to EXPLODE people off safe neutral tools like he used to so that he can rob stocks in the few interactions he does win. Replacing safe, reliable kill confirms off his best neutral tool with high risk/reward call-outs like Aether and dash attack doesn't cut it. His dtilt combo buff was the most critical buff, but he needed a lot more changes like that. Though I will admit that the Aether buff was really big from a flavor perspective. That is Ike's most iconic move by far, so it really deserves to be a relevant part of his kit.
@@Evello37 I agree Ike is a very simple character but a lot of ultimate characters are and I don't even think Ike's nair is that unhealthy relative to what other characters are doing. It was good at the beginning of the game when nobody knew how to counter it and people weren't as good at killing but it is very telegraphed and Ike is a slow character.
@@NCozy I agree that I don't think Ike would be broken with pre-patch nair. He was honestly never all that good to begin with, even when people were bad. MKLeo had to constantly fall back on Lucina even in the early days. But his gameplay was incredibly linear even by Ultimate standards. He was probably the closest any Smash character has ever come to a 1-button moveset.
I wasn't around before ike got buffed, i kinda started playing last year and i have to say Ike is one of my favorites, just because it feels satisfying to land those heavy hits. I know he's considered bottom tier but he's fun to win with, especially against a faster opponent which has been frustrating at times.
Thanks for watching! Ultimate had some pretty substantial patches and there were a _lot_ of characters who came close to being included in the video (I ended up cutting the honourable mentions section down because it was just too much lol), but if you think there's anyone who definitely deserved a slot, let me know!
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Great video, very interesting. If you ever make a sequel to this video, make sure to include 8.0 bayo, 7.0 cloud and Samus and 13.0 min min
Unrelated but as a fellow Dark Pit main, I've got to know. Do you think nair is DP's best move despite all of it's flaws or do you think something like bair takes it
i'm definetly biased but honest to God falco might've had the best buff in 8.0.0
down tilt combos better with the sour spot comboing forever and the sweet and middle spot killing a lot earlier as well as being 2 frames faster
up smash kills earlier, is WAYYYYY bigger (seriously look it up the change is ridiculous), and can hit BEHIND HIM now
nair now connect more reliably and is WAYYYY bigger on the last hit
dair has less end lag and landing lag which makes it an even better combo move and 2 frames safer on shield
grounded side b is 5 frames faster and lasts 3 frames longer as well as being 5 frames safe on shield
aerial side b lasts 3 frames longer
i honestly think falco got dealt the best hand especially the down tilt and up smash changes
Diddy Kong as well, I don't remember in which patch they buffed it, but his up b on launch was absolutely awful, it barely went any further than little mac's upward.@@Migota_
With how much content you put out for Smash's older content, you really should consider grabbing a hacked switch. They can revert to older versions of Smash so you can view direct comparisons, such as that Incineroar revenge example.
Hell Id send you my spare if you pay for my original switch cost, just so we can get that perfect training room footage.
Patch 8.0 was so beyond crucial it makes up half the list. Someone on the dev team was clearly taking notes on who needed substantial reworks and DELIVERED. You love to see it
I don't know what the 8.0 mindset was but damn they knew what they were doing. Giving Mewtwo a combo throw, Ike a rework, Falcon some pretty nice combos from Raptor Boost and Incineroar....damn near anything it wanted in the same patch is wild.
If I remember correctly I think at some point during 7.0 the Japanese players got together and made a tier list video discussing character strengths and weaknesses. Can't remember much else other than that was the only time they made a tier list video. That might have also been one factor on how the devs decided on balance changes for 8.0
Idk if it was patch 8 or 9 but bro the devs buffed the low tiers such as little mac having more damage to sheild, incineroar having his moves buff and doctor mario having his down b buff. I also think ganon was on it, im not sure but my friends popped off(mainly me cuz i main incin) cuz holy shit we got wat we needed
When I close my eyes, I see Pit’s nair hitboxes
Its still a really good move. You just shouldnt use it as a spacing tool; he has other moves for that
well at least they arent taking up much space
MockRock brings it up so much, its been burned into my retina from the videos 😂
@@benross9174 you mean like forward air that also has a shit box or bair that is smaller than most disjoints
Holy shit your right a circle in each corner
"Incineroar was *intimidating in competitive play* " I see what you did there
wolfey is quaking in his boots
Vgc....
Can’t wait for smash ultimatest, where incineroar gets to use parting shot and leave the game
@@HuneeBruh and for his final smash to be mega incineroar from the soon to be released pokemon za. it will delete the game and cause power outages.
@@HuneeBruh and then come back in later to use intimidate and fake out again!
EXTREMELY surprised to not see Bayonetta here. Went from being unanimously thought of as trash to now being considered a top 10-20 character.
Top 10 is a big stretch, top 20-30 would be more accurate
I was gonna comment this. The patch that lowered the SDI multiplier is HUGE
I think he didn't include Bayo for the same reasons as Corrin: her buffs are bit too spread out to qualify for the list.
Patch 8.0 is easily her most substantial buff patch, but patch 3.1 and especially patch 12.0 (the one that made jab a kill move) also provided noteworthy improvements.
A big part of that is because of being a hard character and not being anywhere near her peak strength so it took a long time for people to realize she’s not garbage
@@mortezz1268 I think he meant Bayo is in the range of 10-20, not that Bayo is a top 10 char
Pre-nerf Pichu is one of the funniest things this series has done.
Fr, having Melee's joke character be an S-tier even above his grown-up self is hilarious.
@@Moon-nk3co My favorite thing has to be forward tilt. For all intents and purposes that dinky little kick forward should not be evaporating stocks like it did but it did and it was glorious.
Never should've nerfed him smh
For a game with 90 fighters that Sakurai admits to being balanced based on Elite smash… not half bad a job tbh
Steve sonic and rob are all proof of the contrary i'm afraid
@@elmo37663 out of 80 characters being a slight step above compared to the other games? yeah, that’s pretty good.
@@elmo3766waa waa. 3% of the roster is too good
@@elmo3766 i would add G£W but yeah 4 out of 90 is great
@@DoMorrMusicfair enough but there's always room for improvement
Also I just mentioned those 3 because they're the main ones yall know that they're far from the *only* problematic ones
Remember when they used to patch this game? I miss that.
I know. We can't expect patches forever of course, but only one balance patch after Sora feels like them just ditching as soon as they could. They could have done at least two patches even if months apart just to fix some of the issues that popped after Sora's release and tune some of the characters that still feel "off" even in a casual setting.
@@Breeze926 yeah like there's no way they saw Marth's dancing blade and down smash hitboxes and said they were fine.
It's so disappointing as a Marth fan. Also why does Isabelle suuuuck
They really should’ve dedicated one more year solely to balancing the game after Sora. They literally dropped a shitload of characters who change the way the game is played during a pandemic and then dipped. It’s a shame because this game is so close to perfection, too.
@@Mr__Jack yeah and then Sakurai is gonna make a YT and talk about how "good" his Smash Ultimate design is while ignoring so many flaws. It's such a big punch in the face.
Doc deserves a mention, they gave him insane buffs in both 7.0.0 and 13.0.0 which made most of his combo moves do more damage without breaking their combo potential or made them able to combo in the first place.
He's actually one of the characters I ended up cutting out of honourable mentions for time, I do agree that they were some REALLY nice improvements that make him feel more functional and complete as a character
Do tell cause I'm still not convince 13.0 did anything meaningful for him.
@@MrGameguyC 7.0 had more meaningful improvements, but it's like what he mentioned about the buffs being split. The main things were up-b getting more knockback growth, down-tilt getting actual combos (it was almost useless before 7.0), but 13.0 still did the great up-air damage buff which helps making his combos more dangerous. The other buffs weren't as impactful but still improved his gameplan, like dair getting more active frames in 7.0 and 2 frames less startup in 13.0 or late nair getting more damage and knockback, which both helped with landing and edgeguarding.
I think Bayonetta should've been a honourable mention. I remember her not being very good at the start of Ultimate due to what she did in Smash 4, and now she's considered to be pretty strong after a bunch of buffs, even winning a major just recently, and has a strong playerbase across the globe.
Yeah no Bayo was TERRIBLE pre patch.
She went from low tier to top tier
Pichu was so hilariously overnerfed, it sucks so fuckign hard
WHY IS HIS HURTBOX BIGGER THAN PIKACHU
they wanted to make pichu worse then pickachu.
Pikachu was just way less popular but should've also been made bigger. I think it's one of the few last remaining atrociously small characters that never got touched and in this case in particular flew under the radar w/little data to go on for most of the game's lifespan
Pikachu was never nerfed. Never forget that
esam constantly saying pikachu is broken had the oposite affect. it made people think hes overated and doesnt need a nerf when he needed one all along.
Kirby's buffs were phenomenal and he wouldn't be the same without them! Highlights: F-tilt became a kill move, nair/up air became faster AND became kill moves, Fair does more damage and kills earlier, down smash is faster and stronger (which makes dair rides worth going for), dash attack became bigger and stronger, up smash sweet spots are easier to hit, and inhale is faster and Kirby retains his copies longer.
I am SO GLAD that they patched Mewtwo's down throw into a combo starter... I would _always_ instinctively try to combo it into forward air before the patch. It just felt like it should have worked, but it just didn't... But now it does, and it feels _good!_
Same, before the patch I really tried to figure out what to do with down throw, I ended up using it for plat tech chase setups. The cool thing is that it's still not fully always a true combo throw, the DI dependance makes it a fairly balanced change since you can let it rip early if they're not ready or pummel for the mash to mess up the DI
Sheik's changes were really cool too. Made her play a lot differently than her Sm4sh counterpart, going from fair trains and grab kill confirms to uair loops and needle confirms, and fleshed out some of her other moves like dtilt and dsmash got some added niches, which were also complimented by better setups in uair and needles. Landing needle confirms are soooo sick, feels like what this character should always be able to do.
On my hands and knees begging they make all these burst option detection type moves (raptor boost, upper dash arm etc) have their hitboxes activate on frame 1 of finding a target in the next game. Its like frame 2 or 3 for pit and peach but something crazy like frame SIX on falcon. Characters like lucina can deadass just walk in the opposite direction and have it miss and they never patched it. I don't even care about the armour activating late. The hitbox being late is criminal
They did actually buff it in a patch... from frame 6 to 5 🤣
You can even see Falcon side b detection failing to hit Yoshi in his 30 second character trailer when Yoshi leans back for grounded down b lmao. That tiny bit of hurtbox shifting is all a move needs to avoid Falcon side b.
It makes waay more sense why characters with fast enough walk speeds or thin enough bodies can simple turn around and walk away to avoid falcon side b. It reminds me of Brawl Sonic homing attack and how terrible the lock-on was for it.
@@dragnjames2190 see that makes me think it’s intentional for it to whiff like that
@@KevSB07 The move is damn near non-functional in Melee too lol. The hit detection on Raptor Boost in Melee is utter dogshit.
Some of the swinging animations would look weird if they were instant, though. Maybe just put the target in hitstun once the activation hitbox has connected.
They really sent the idea of Pichu being high tier into the Pokemon Ranch upstate. It's probably for the best this tiny little gnat isn't zipping around comfortably only to send you to the next dimension by poking its foot out but dammit I still think keeping Pichu the way he was would've been really funny.
Blud was sent to MyPokemon Ranch 💀
Shoutout to when they removed Dedede's shield break. Cause f-smash taking a full second to come out wasn't enough, it needed a 0% hitbox to compensate smh
I think the only buff i'd make to my main (Rosalina) is make it harder to send Luma into tumble so people cant just cheese luma early and force her to play without it so often
Luma should be disjointed like in 4 (with how many busted swordies there are this miiight be balanced)
I think a good change would be to make Luma less vulnerable while Rosa is shielding. So many safe aerials can kill luma by hitting it through Rosa’s shield and it’s really weird that it works that way. It’s also really unfortunate because when luma gets hit, even unsafe aerials become unpunishable, since luma up smash is Rosa’s best out of shield option.
@@KevSB07 that too, id honestly make it so luma hovers closer to rosa when she pulls up shield
@@benross9174 god i wish
@@Chillaccino1 actually I think my favorite potential buff for Rosa would be to make landing fair safer, and work as a drag down combo starter. That’d be huge
People lowkey forget how horrible ryu and ken were at launch lol. Glad they got made more functional.
22:21
Ult's in a very weird grey spot with it's characters.
Many of them feel kinda undercooked, but also the playerbase (IMO) isn't trying nearly hard enough with them.
But that's probably not as new as it sound given the recent rise of Melee DK's.
Ult's kinda a simple game, and a ton of the cast is paper thin. Don't know how much farther you can push characters who have next to no tech and simplistic combo routes.
I remember friends' jokes that Ike was the most unga bunga character and patch 8.0 put Ike players through the industrial revolution
It was one of the later updates but I think Mii Swordfighter in 12.0.0 deserves a mention. Gale Stab used to just not be a move and now it's chosen for the side B slot quite often. It's not very often that the actual behaviour of a move is changed and not just the numbers.
I can see the shaking hands meme with smash and competitive Inceneroar getting more powerful as time goes on
I feel like a little Mac should at least get a mention considering his forward smash would just almost break a shield immediately if aimed downward, and will if charged a bit and his up tilt went from one of the worst in the game to a terrifying combo and kill confirmer
Luigi mains just refusing to NOT have a 0-death off grab is hilarious to me.
Kinda wierd to not see mii brawler in here. He's is another char that got MASSIVELY buffed over all the patch cycle of ult. Its kinda the reason why hes that high nowaday on people's minds. They gave him the killing power to trupper, they reduced the landinglag of nair and bair, reduced the startup of flashing mach puch by a lot, and many other changes. The sad part is that they still didnt fix his fair from not autocanceling after being there since 1.0.0 :(
Great vid as always!
They actually did let fair autocancel for a brief while between patches... and it was kind of disgusting
Aw man, I really wanted to see Doc here! Understandable though, there were a lot of winners during the game's patch cycle
I like how the devs can try and nerf Luigi but his mains can just ignore it.
I want to bring your attention to (in my opinion) one of the biggest nerfs in the game, Mega Man in 2.0. Pre-patch Mega Man was known for one thing: the Macro cancel. This was a tech that allowed Mega Man to cancel any of this grounded pellets into anything he wanted just by buffering a jump with another action. This was huge because pellets are a core part of Mega Man’s kit so being able to do whatever you wanted out of them was insane. The best part of this tech was being able to cancel pellets into z-drop metal blade. With this, you could INFINITE people until kill percent. Sure this tech was difficult to do, but if mastered it turn Mega Man into one of the best characters in the game. Or that would be the case; had this not been patched out in 2.0 which came out a month after launch. Now this nerf didn’t ruin Mega Man, but it did ruin his potential and as a result the character barely exists in the modern meta.
I’m very surprised that Ken and Ryu were just an honorable mention. I remember how people reacted when Ken became an actual character who would touch of death you.
Yk there's a couple gripes I have with the patch notes of Ultimate, but it can be summarized as two things:
A: Why were patch notes not utilized to further distinguish echo fighters, especially since they went and patched out the differences that Peach and Daisy had.
B: Why didn't they continue to do patch notes past 13.0.2 when this is clearly the kind of game that needs post DLC patches, as with pretty much any fighting game.
Mate patch notes just tell you what's in a patch
I mean, there were patchs that buffed ryu and not ken, that counts right?
A. Why would they devote time to tweaks values to differentiate echo fighters in the same game where they specifically created the moniker to get people to stop bitching about clones?
B. Because the game has to be finished at some point and the balance team had ironed out all the major balance issues they had in the limited amount of time they had with the project. The dev team at Bandai Namco has to move onto other projects at some point. ( Tekken 8 )
@@dragnjames2190I agree so much. Echoes arent supposed to be that different and they are especially not supposed to eat up Dev time from other characters
@@dragnjames2190To be fair, the distinction hasn't really helped much has it? And they're perfectly fine eating dev time up to make a character *more* like the original in the case of Daisy and her turnips. They really didn't need to touch her at all.
These patches and especially that last part with Steve made me wonder if a Smash Ultimate Deluxe would ever be a possibility where it gets new patches and proper rollback. One could dream.
Finding out about dthrow fair in the first hour of 8.0.0 was magical
It’s not just on heavyweights too, literally any character could just die at 80 if they get grabbed at ledge and don’t react in time to DI out. Which is actually very common because dthrow animation is wickedly fast
Nice to see Captain Falcon's buffs in 8.0 at the top of this list. Those were really big, I remember very well the big hype behind it, it was awesome, especially since Falcon was seen as very downgraded from Sm4sh early on in Ultimate.
While in the end I don't think ultimate patchnotes are awful, I feel like Smash 4 patchnotes were more impactful to the meta overall. Characters such as Mewtwo, Marth got much more impactful than any buffed character ever was in ultimate and it definitely felt like the devs at least kept trying balancing out the top tier, with patchs having a real impact on Sheik and Diddy's reign. And they at least tried to tone down bayo and cloud, which is much more than we can say about Aegis, Kazuya or Steve.
Love this video concept. Usually, when people make videos about Smash buffs or nerfs, it's complaining about what should be buffed and what should be nerfed. While I do think it's interesting and important to talk about that type of stuff, taking the time to point out all the times they hit the nail right on the head and appreciate the hard work that goes into balancing these games is great.
I feel like joker's down gun nerf going from 3 hitboxes to just 1 thin hitbox could've been mentioned. Leo started playing less around this time but either way I feel like this was a big nerf to a previously amazing move
The pichu ftilt nerf also has a good side
Since the move has a 100% trip chance (lol), by reducing the knockback they made the windows for trip larger since it send in the air later !
One of my favorite Mewtwo buffs was his forward throw because now it’s the most damaging base throw in the game and it kills
Here’s a list of all balance changes made to Squirtle that weren’t universal changes made to all characters on the roster.
it's crazy how both in smash and in the pokemon games incineroar ended up getting random buffs lmao
I remember how in your second heavyweight video you talked about how ultimate's heavyweight were worse in practice than some of the heavies from previous games and now Incineroar is usually considered the best or second best heavyweight. King K rool though ....
Or third, if you count Kazuya as one in which case he dethrones Bowser as “the best heavy” like it’s not even close
I think Ultimate's modern interpretation of Heavyweights is really good, I just wish they actually didn't have safety in their kits so they can actually go really hard on their combat. Instead, make their "safety" be the fact that they are really hard to edgeguard without taking damage/losing a stock yourself.
An underrated pick but Young Link 7.0.0 buffs were really great for the character, and I still stand by that there is no way he is only a B+ on the tier list
It's kinda unfortunate for Ike. While the nair nerf was undoubtedly huge, the rework to the rest of his kit means that in a vacuum, he's technically the best he's ever been. But relative to the rest of the cast, he ended up being worse off and barely breaches mid tier for a lot of players. Out of this list, he seems the most unchanged while still having a lot of changes because he stayed in his lane while everyone else seems to have gotten noticeably stronger or weaker.
But shoutouts to jab 3 being a KO move at high percents if he somehow doesn't get the KO by then lol
I legit thought Chrom would be on this list JUST because of Patch 2.0.0. Making Chrom die first from his Up-b pretty much ruined that move for good.
This was a super fun look back at the patch history! I still remember smash twitter going insane at what was realistically a slap on the wrist for Wario players ☠️
No falco 8.0!! Thats crazy, he legit went from "joke" character to a full blown spacie in one patch.
and there is Steve who hide his true power till the end and now Steve could use his full power with out worrying about nerf, except Nintendo decide to release a patch just to nerf Steve.
No, I remember screaming "Why? Why???" When reading 8.0.0's patch notes when that came out bc my cousin played Incineroar a lot and I struggled against him already. The fact that they so unnecessarily buffed side and up b, two of Incin's most devastating moves, to make them even MORE jank. It was demoralizing. My cousin called me that day too, he was like "did you see the buffs?"
Ugh, dark times.
Tell your cousin I hope he’s having a good one 🤝
-another Incineroar player
This is the curse of a lot of heavies: Making them competitively viable often means making them overpowered in casual play, primarily because at casual play, shielding and edgeguarding is much, much rarer in casual play compared to competitive play.
@@sharmakefarah2064? I play Marth, edge guarding is something he does, also shielding against Alolan Whip is completely ineffective, it's a command grab.
What are you talking about
@@hypotheticaltapeworm Yeah, for Incineroar specifically, I do think these are bad buffs, though my point stands in general.
MockRock's voice has become that narrator in my head that i read with
I'm surprised Mega Man wasn-t mentioned considering he had a really busted exploit where he could cancel Pellet lag into specials, as well as being able to do near instant metal blade zdrops from them, resulting in possible infinites which were quickly patched out
I KNEW falcon would be in this list, as a falcon main, i literally have version 8 patch notes bookmarked on my computer
Incin with revenge has got to be one of if not the scariest character in the game, one alolan whip and you take 50% or die 😭
I would still honestly rather Pichu be top-tier than Pikachu, because Pichu has... literally any weakness whatsoever? And Pikachu has been in the upper half of the tier list for five games straight. The Rat has NEVER had to do so much as a single-patch stint in Low Tier Hell, something otherwise only the very late DLC characters can currently "boast". Its design is inherently pretty toxic due to having the combination of one of the smallest hitboxes in the game, excessively fast frame data, and an extremely obnoxious projectile that gets even worse on specific stages. Pichu's increased risk and reward at least makes it more interesting and puts a hard limitation on its ability to camp people out, especially with its drastically unsafe recovery due to Agility's lack of a hitbox.
I'm sure people more well-versed in the meta will tell me that Pikachu does have some things that resemble weaknesses, but the ones I can think of all feel very "fake", like the "character flaws" of some amateur writer's Mary Sue. It's light... but not THAT light, and most of the other very light characters are easier to hit. Its projectile matters less in the top end of play, but by simple virtue of being a fast projectile it forces interactions, something many characters can't do at all. It doesn't have that much kill power, but what kill moves it does have are mostly extremely fast, so once kill percent is hit the enemy isn't long for this world.
Surprised there was no mention of 7.0.0 Cloud, I remember that being sort of the turning point for him since people didn't consider him super great before it.
(For reference, it's the patch that made his dash attack a kill move, made his up smash faster and stronger, and made limit charge much faster.)
This came up with my Patrons as well and Cloud was actually a character I ended up cutting out of the honourable mentions section for time. That was absolutely a turning point for him, no question, but Cloud is still ultimately associated with amazing aerials above all and those weren't touched in any way.
I think patch 7.0 was really good for Samus too, they increased knockback on up smash, down smash, and upthrow. giving her an actual kill throw, a half decent smash attack for tech chases, and Upsmash is used in ledge setups. They also buffed her zair's damage, knockback, and (most of) it's consistency issues were also fixed. Now zair is a fundamental part of her kit, and helped bring her up arguably 10+ spots on the tier list.
You forgot that one patch where they fixed Diddy Kong's Up-b so the charging it actually helps you with vertical recovery.
Yeah, prior to a patch charging Diddy's Up-b hurt your verical recovery
Crazy how pit got such good buffs and yet still feels and works like an unfinished character at times
I think pit’s down throw is maybe one of the best in the game because if your at ledge and use down throw and the di in up air kills, if they di out fair and bair confirm and if they don’t you can still do so much with it also amazing for combos and reading opponents options it’s amazing at everything a throw can do
I stand by the fact Little Mac did NOT need his shield damage buffed.
Yeah, that was a stupid buff to give, and he really needed fundamental reworks in his design to be much better designed as a character.
It reinforced strong on ground, weak in the air, which is not good for Little Mac or his opponent.
@@sharmakefarah2064 I think they should’ve delivered on the strong ground game concept by just making his airspeed terrible, not by making his aerials and recovery terrible as well. If you look at a character like Jigglypuff, whose gimmick is being good in the air, they didn’t nerf her ground game by making all of her grounded moves near useless like Little Mac’s aerials (other than down tilt). All of them are useable moves, but they balanced it out by making her ground speed slower. Mac should’ve taken this approach as well, with aerials being useable, although not great.
TLDR, They should’ve made his air game understated, instead of making it non-existent
I was so hyped to see patches as a differentiator between the echos as the meta developed. Shame to see it only happen to Ken & Ryu
His office looks like fnaf 3
I’m a little surprised Bayonetta wasn’t mentioned at all, every buff she received was impactful to where I would say she’s arguably the most buffed character in the game. Good list regardless 👍
What if the next video was about characters that got buffed and nerfed and nothing changed about them. They stayed practically in the same spot.
half of this list is monsters of the pocketable variety lmao
Wow I’m so glad Pichu was nerfed! It’d be really boring to watch ultimate gameplay if a small electric rat was considered the best character in the game for the next few years! That would suck tbh
To be blunt, Pichu never would have been the best, and while I think Pichu may have needed nerfs, Pichu overall would have gotten worse as time went on, and his star was already falling before the nerf.
If Ganoncide is not in the video, I'm f***ing loose it
The Sonic up air change was what made Sonic a top tier.
His damage output was supremely inconsistent because of up air not working and now he has a reliable out of shield on most of the cast that comboes into everything.
I think it's crazy people don't talk about it more
That was more of a fix than a buff though, moves straight up not working should be patched to actually work (RIP Greninja up-smash)
@@tailsBOOM1992 the way they fixed it was by adding a really big hitbox so I think it should be classified as a buff
I was curious to looking at old patch notes and this came to the top of my TH-cam lol! Thanks!
Wasn't there a time when megaman could shoot lemons with leaf shield active and it made him basically a god character in neutral?
Really surprised you didn’t put ROB on the list. Vanilla rob was not that good at all. And then they buffed sideb. And then they buffed it again. And then they buffed it again. And then they buffed some of his other moves. It was actually insane to be a ROB main at the release of ultimate
I was 100% expecting to see *THAT* Wii Fit Trainer shadowbuff in the honorable mentions. Intentional? No. Permanent? No. Game-changing for the week it was active? Absolutely.
Edit: I just found the exact video I was asking about so this comment no longer matters. I think there is more to talk about there though so a second video on the topic could be fun.
Have you done a video on worst designed characters in smash ultimate? I don't mean low tier, but characters whose design objectively could be better, more fun, more interactive. Obviously design can be very subjective but I think the community has voiced enough opinions on certain aspects of some characters that its reasonable to say a lot of people think certain characters could have their designs improved. I'm also not even talking about characters matching their origin games, just whether or not their kit design and stat build work well in Smash and create a consistently fun character.
Things like, Lucario's aura makes him hard to control at high damage, Little Mac being so bad in the air yet so strong on the ground that players often just throw him off stage, Ganondorf not having enough tools to compensate for his slow heavy build, Joker being so strong with Arsen that players sometimes just wait it out to fight normal Joker, Ice Climbers AI controlled character being inconsistent, Mewtwo's tail, etc. These may not be the worst things in the game just some points that come to mind.
Surprised mega man wasn’t on the list since leaf shield was fucking wild before they nerfed it
I’m forever upset about the peach fair nerf bc most of her other moves kill later than average
bayo suckedddddd in early ult, very surprised she didn't make this list over the pits
falco not making it either was also surprising
Luma should be its own playable fighter as a joke character
7.0 Joker in my opinion is one of the most important patches in Ultimate history. Joker was a pretty unambiguous top tier character after his release. 7.0 nerfed 2 aspects that I absolutely adore.
Downward Gun has more spread so when Joker is far from the opponent he's unlikely to hit with more than 1 of the 3 htiboxes. This really nerfed Joker's edgeguarding by making it so that opponents could actually recover against him, prenerf Joker could near infinitely keep some characters under the ledge and rack up hundreds of damage for free by just ledge cancelling downward gun infinitely. Joker could also land for free every time, with pre nerf Down Gun, one of the most impactful interactions in Ultimate and Joker just didn't need to deal with it.
The other one was increasing the amount of meter Joker lost when Arsene was active. All in all this was about a 40% nerf to Joker's meter when he was taking damage.
What I love about this patch was they nerfed a top tier pretty significantly in a really impactful way without making him feel awful, pre 7.0 and post 7.0 Joker feel the exact same to pilot unlike with Ivysaur and Pichu, Joker felt like a top tier before and after the changes but all the gimmicks and cheese Joker was doing to terrorize the meta at the time and not getting punished for playing poorly with Arsene was addressed. Definitely one of Ultimate's best character nerfs.
If you look super early there was a day 1 patch that nerfed a lot of bs. Release megaman was broken.
It's no exaggeration to say how much the 8.0.0 patch greatly benefitted Mewtwo
While yes, the character still isn't super popular, the buffs all helped give Mewtwo:
1.) End stocks even more consistently thanks to Down Throw now being a combo tool on top of Up Air and Back Air having way more knockback
2.) Made their disadvantage slightly less bad thanks to being able to teleport back to the ground safely.
3.) And most significantly their neutral was improved DRASTICALLY thanks to uncharged Shadow Ball now being an extremely reliable bait option that's almost as annoying as Falco's laser ^_^
I definitely thought Young Link was going to at least be an honorable mention. His upsmash was buffed considerably to kil earlier, his forward throw was buffed and it became a fairly consistent kill throw at around 140% at ledge which is a big deal because it gave him a reliable kill option outside of his kill confirm window, Zair came out faster and the angle was changed so you can combo out of it. And up air was buffed to kill earlier as well.
Near the start villager got alot of buffs.
Some moves like up tilt didnt even work.
But yeah pit got a glow up bigtime. Pichu, ivy, and ike got nerfed a bit.
long time no seek, it's a coincidence meeting you here. lmao
@@MetaGamingDojo yooo. Hows it hangin bro.
Pichu was a menace and definitely needed nerfed, but the devs basically used a sledgehammer to fix some loose nails. I miss pre-patch Pichu, she probably would be fine now compared to the extremely early meta
I still miss dedede’s F-smash being able to break shields easily
20:38
Marss' complaints really got to people.
Her Nair still combos just fine and is still very safe on shield (-4), especially when spaced. (And she has the aerial mobility to abuse it)
2 extra startup frames on Boost Kick isn't a helpful change, but the grounded version always had low range and wasn't going to hit most well spaced moves either way, which only gets more common at higher levels.
Yeah, this really isn't doing it for the "Small Changes, Big Nerfs" pick IMO.
Failing to see how this was different then Wario.
Diddy easily had the biggest nerf in the game 😢
a character that should at least be a honorable mention is Mii Brawler. Few people know this because it was early on and he was very underused at this point but he got a LOT of buffs on 2.0.0. Eleven to be exact, and crucially, bair & nair got their landing lag reduced while up air got its damage output & knockback buffed. This expanded his combo game a lot and with the additional buffs he then got in later patches, notably 4.0.0 making thrust uppercut stupidly good and flashing mach punch great, he could now be a top tier if he was more played.
Great video as always, though I do have a slight criticism. When showing the training mode comparisons between the new and old moves, I would have preferred if you labeled which was which because I sometimes had a hard time telling. Especially for the ones where it was only a slight change. Besides that very cool stuff 👍
man i remember better nerf greninja and buff the puff used to be the most common slogans back in the days of smash 4, quite nostalgic looking back.
speaking of which i'd say king dedede had just as bad treatment as puff did in smash 4 as he only got NERFS throughout the game's patches(he only received a single buff to his down throw)
also on the topic of falcon's list of buffs in ultimate i always found it funny how they managed to buff so much random stuff about him(and the thing is, these buffs did actually manage to help him quite a good amount unlike a few other characters) yet they did not manage to fix the problems with his turnaround dash, a very subtle yet quite impactful problem that he's dealt with since the launch of the game.
Definitely think Marth should have atleast been put into honorable mentions, his buffs focused directly on shoring up his weaker moves making them actually pretty damn good, most of the other buffs for characters strengthened the moves that were already considered among their best moves. That, and the primary thing people have complained about with Marth for ultimate’s lifespan is the consistency of his tippers, many of which got easier to hit (though I think most people weren’t trying hard enough even before).
One buff I would give to Ike to fix him a little is making the side special either reflect or at least hit and then cancel non-trascendent projectiles, I know it doesn't make much sense, but that alone would make Ike viable probably.
Or make it so that you can angle it in the air to dodge some projectiles
This might be my bias as a Robin player, but when Terry came out they increased the rate at which the thunder spells charge. With how GOOD Thunder, Elthunder, and Arcthunder are, accessing them quickly allowed Robin's advantage state to be scary. I can charge an Arcthunder by the time a Roy runs at me from across most legal stages. That combined with how fast Levin Nair comes out now and Robin can actually have a fighting chance against some of the game's best characters.
it says a lot about how insane 8.0.0 was that diddy kong didnt get much of a mention here, obviously the infinite was patched out but he got some really interesting buffs too, i remember elite smash being filled with falcon and diddy at the time
Perfect video to watch on my birthday. Gonna get me some snacks.
Part of me wishes Pichu was a bit better because it sucks that he has a strictly superior version in Pikachu, but the rest of me is glad he isn't.
21:00 to expand a bit more on the Zss changes
for Nair, being less safe on shield sucked, but it also massively hurt her combo game. Her most notorious kill confirms, Nair - Flip Kick, became a much tighter window on the entire cast. others lkill confirms like Nair - Jump Flip Kick, and Nair Bair are pretty much non existent now, and they were important mid range kill confirms for her. Nair - up air chains are also much more difficult to land as well.
For Boost Kick being a less potent out of shield option does blow. Again though for combos it really sucks. The nerf made Pretty much makes any ladder combos into it a lot less consistent. Then some other minor stuff like Small Paralyzer into Up B has less time to confirm, and stuff like Zair - Boost Kick became less consistent too.
Ike nerfs feel weird to me because I like the direction they took with it and I think the game wouldve benefited a lot from more rework patches but that isn't what we got. Most of the patches focused on doubling down on characters strengths which just makes it weird that they chose to nerf nair. They gave him a bunch of kill moves but it's arguably harder for him to consistently close out stocks in a game full of characters who are really good at doing that.
Ike's changes were good conceptually, but they revealed that the core design of the character is fundamentally flawed. His bullshit nair was the ONLY reason he was ever close to viable, and without that nair he would need a major kit overhaul to compensate. Either he needs his neutral tools buffed significantly across the board to let him safely win more interactions the honest way, or he needs to EXPLODE people off safe neutral tools like he used to so that he can rob stocks in the few interactions he does win. Replacing safe, reliable kill confirms off his best neutral tool with high risk/reward call-outs like Aether and dash attack doesn't cut it. His dtilt combo buff was the most critical buff, but he needed a lot more changes like that.
Though I will admit that the Aether buff was really big from a flavor perspective. That is Ike's most iconic move by far, so it really deserves to be a relevant part of his kit.
@@Evello37 I agree Ike is a very simple character but a lot of ultimate characters are and I don't even think Ike's nair is that unhealthy relative to what other characters are doing. It was good at the beginning of the game when nobody knew how to counter it and people weren't as good at killing but it is very telegraphed and Ike is a slow character.
@@NCozy I agree that I don't think Ike would be broken with pre-patch nair. He was honestly never all that good to begin with, even when people were bad. MKLeo had to constantly fall back on Lucina even in the early days. But his gameplay was incredibly linear even by Ultimate standards. He was probably the closest any Smash character has ever come to a 1-button moveset.
They had something going, but they didn't push hard enough.
I wasn't around before ike got buffed, i kinda started playing last year and i have to say Ike is one of my favorites, just because it feels satisfying to land those heavy hits. I know he's considered bottom tier but he's fun to win with, especially against a faster opponent which has been frustrating at times.
21:46
I'm still shocked that killed.
Feels like foresight into MVS :p
Truly surprised cloud wasnt even mentioned. A single patch buffed his limit charge, up smash, dash attack and up B.
Honestly for 8.0.0 I'd give it to Corrin, but that's just me.