0:00 - Introduction 1:15 - Head lock + leg sweep (O so otoshi) 2:45 - Head lock + hip toss (Koshi guruma) 4:20 - Head lock + shoulder toss (Kata guruma) 6:50 - Conclusion
Pugilism was, is, a hybrid method of wrestling & striking. Over time men divided the art into two methods by seperating the striking from the wrestling. Overtime these became different 'sports' but originally they were one art. Pugilism. Jack Dempsey was a Judoka, Wrestler and World Champion Boxer.
Somewhere in England, there is still a catch wrestling club that teaches all of these, along with pugilism (non Queensbury so rabbit punches and forearm clothesline etc included) as part of Western unarmed combat. This is the grappling that stem from fair ground open challenges and theater stage prize-fighting. They have a low opinion of the Judo and Jujitsu that took the Western fairgrounds and theaters by storm from the 1880s claiming that it was promoter hype and rigged matches. The Japanese also insisted on jackets but were ineffectual bare chested according to their club tradition. In open rules, the Japanese were vulnerable to them so promoters were careful to insist on Jujitsu/judo rules that limited their repertoire. They cite Ad Santel as example, destroying kodokan judoka with half Nelson slams and bicep slicers which the Japanese knew nought to defend against. It's been thirty years since I saw the club featured, I'm sure it still exists.
Brazilian Jujitsu has since grown to be one of the most effective grappling styles in the world but it's interesting to hear that it initially faced issues in the west
Foi maravilhoso encontrar este canal. Sou judoca, ainda faixa branca, e passei por alguns meses pelo boxe inglês e boxe tailandês. Me interesso muito por artes marciais e desportos de combate. No momento estou focado apenas no judo mas desejo aprender algo com outras artes para aprimorar e aperfeiçoar o meu próprio estilo de luta. Ótimos vídeos meu amigo, OSS! 🥋🇧🇷🇯🇵
Thank you for this video, Chadi. I've been taught Savate and Filipino dirty boxing aka Panantukan in MMA class. At home I've been practicing so much on my Savate kicks since I've been watching Professor Salam Assli's Savate videos on TH-cam. In MMA class, I've been sparring so much in both boxing and kickboxing. Now since it's June, we're in review week because starting June 13 is testing week and I'm gonna be testing for a green-black belt on my birthday June 14, Chadi. Once I achieve my green-black belt, I definitely need to exercise my cardio because green-black belt is the last belt in the intermediate level in order to test for a Brown belt to officially be in the advanced level in class. From what I know is that testing for a Brown belt takes four hours so I definitely need to work on my cardio so much in order to survive four hours without any water breaks. Let me be clear, I survived two hours losing my breath when I tested for a purple belt. The brown belt test will be very challenging since it's four hours. But never the less, I'm glad I'm advancing so much in MMA class training harder.
Thanks for always posting interesting content! My Dad was in WWII stationed Europe under General Patton. He picked up a bit of Savate and Jujutsu and showed me what he called "tricks" when I was a kid. Love this old archival stuff.
Very good video Chadi. I wish that you would talk about the trips that also figure in pugilism. I'm of the understanding that there are quite a few documented techniques involving entraping the legs of the opponent and shoving them in different directions, but my wrestling knowledge is very limited so i might be wrong.
Congratulations Chadi. This sort of old school mma always enlightens me. Wishing you many more successful years of training and sharing what you learn upon your journey. Laoshr #60 Ching Yi Kung Fu Association
Good stuff as always Chadi. Collar & elbow wrestling was very popular here in Ireland and we took it with us to America, where it would be blended with boxing in fights.
@@larrycold There's a guy in Ireland who has been reviving the sport for the past few years. His channel is a hero with a thousand holds if you want to check him out.
Excellent video Chadi; however, I wish to inform you that I am a practitioner of traditional pugilism. We in the US refer to it as rough and tumble, and have a master of the art. His last name is Hatmaker and has authored many books on the subject. Once again thank you and God bless you and your family.
In the Tai Chi style that I train we call the last throw here for step up raise hands. It’s allowed in our Tui Shou “push hands” that is called moving step. Really tricky to do in our competition as we aren’t allowed to touch the floor with anything other than our feet. The trick is you have to go in under them really deep so that you are directly under their center of gravity then it requires no effort at all to lift and throw. The judo demo here seems to require that the person being thrown be very rigid and the thrower uses a lot of muscular force. But looking at that old document you can see how low and deep the person goes in that’s the key. I’m only 75kg 5ft 8in and have managed this on guys over 90kg and 6ft tall. This is a fun one 😊
If you look at martial arts treatises from the 16th & 17th centuries in Europe, you'll find a plethora of throws, locks, punching, kicking, & holds that are very comparable to eastern martial arts. After guns, they began to take a back seat & eventually turned into boxing, & wrestling. A lot of the Kung Fu styles get a bad rap for not being effective but the simple fact is that they are effective & have very good technique.
If I have understood it correctly, throws, joint locks etc. were practiced continuously as part of Savate, at some point becoming separate form of practice as Savate Défense. I could be wrong, don't know. It would be interesting to know more about it.
Savate was a martial born in France that had a focus on kicks but it also had some hand strikes techniques, basic throws/trips and cane techniques. Later Savate was mixed with english Pugilism and it gave birth to the Boxe Française with was a mix of pugilism's punches, Savate's kicks with shoes, fencing and french wrestling (nowadays known has greco-roman wrestling). Today was is called Savate-Boxe Française is a sport version that removed throws, weapons and several kicks. Even though it shares the name, Savate-Boxe Française is a very différent beast compared to traditional Savate and Boxe Française.
@@hierontatohtori8696 Well I am no expert in this field but it seems that Savate Défense is a modern création. Traditional Boxe Française was meant for self-defense, not sport. Most of the source are in french but you can probably find informations about people like Georges Dubois, Émile André, Joseph Charlemont, Julien Leclerc or Roger Lafond (creator of the Méthode Lafond and one of the last weapon master). If you speak french I recommend you the channel Arts Martiaux Traditionnels Français (it deals mostly with the historical, philosophical and cultural aspects of french martial arts) and Les Arts Martiaux Français (it deals mostly with techniques and history). I recommend you a two part vidéos séries called Comment Faire du MMA Français, it will give you an historical perspective on the grappling part of Boxe Française as well as some technical démonstration
Another great video! Hey, Chadi. Have you ever heard of Capoeira? There are some pretty neat throws and sweeps hidden in there, I'd love to see your take on that.
Fantastic video. I’d love to see you do an analysis of the throws in Muay Thai and which ones you feel are best for other grappling arts. Fascinating topic
@@montagistreel I’ve been using the Thai clinch along with foot sweeps lately. It’s working ok but I need to develop the technique more. It’s good control on your opponent’s head though but you have to watch for the underhook to throw by option.
wow ! great content! I find this topic matter fascinating! I feel like a lot of the early prize fighters cross trained in catch wrestling. interesting to see early throws in boxing outside of the Broughton rules.
I remember some older hollywood movies from around the 1930s-1940s with boxing scenes.... possibly a comedy that would show a boxer performing some fireman carry throws... and perhaps more. I'll come back if I find it.
Chadi, I have been thinking about this topic a bit recently and BAM here you are today! I grew up with my parents heavily involved with Historical European Martial Arts. Most bladed and melee combat as well as archery HOWEVER I have see old drawings of sword techniques combined with some grappling similar to some moves shown in this video. Super interesting topic not as well documented as Eastern martial arts sadly.
Hi Chadi, an interesting topic may be to compare wrestling techniques in HEMA (historic European Martial Arts) evolved for combat in armor with traditional samurai origins of Jujitsu. The good persons to collaborate on this topic would be Matt from Scholagladiatoria and Metatron, both great youtubers.
I wonder if any techniques survived in unarmed combat systems being taught to western militaries. To transition from a punch or strike to a hip or shoulder throw sounds like a good hand to hand combat technique.
There seem to have been some leg sweeps too, but not the ones I'm used to from other sports. Savate has a really aggressive one where you punch and then kick the legs which works as a sweep. BTW: I don't know why, but I can't pull off an iriminage. I can only do a variation where I use my palm to push his head up. Even then, it's way easier for me to sweep.
That 1st one isn't a ''throw'' lad. -It's a (shoulder wrench). Followed with a rearward reap similar to a sweep that uses the sole or side of the foot but a reap uses a hooking like motion the leg to grasp the leg you pull to force the dislocation. A wretch is for dislocating & ripping apart joints by using the opponents weight with your body as anchor. Human shoulder is the easiest joint to dislocate. It can be used as throw position but that is secondary purpose if the primary as a wretch is not possible. I am traditional bare-knuckle boxer or fisticuffs as my Great grand father & grand father instructed me in my infancy. These few of many method only present in English Fisticuffs are not allowed in a ring & with good reason due to the permeant injuries they cause. One of the 1st banned set of motion were what's called a couple lock as this had 19/20 chance of fatality. You look at this to much like grappler as Judo user. Boxing even traditional bare-knuckle boxing=fisticuffs is not wresting-grappling.
That is not a hip toss or Koshi Gurama even if similar in appearance the steps are not shown but can't blame the author as a Judo practitioner. What is shown is motion 1 & an optional 3rd. 1st is a the approach to a (rear clinch) 2nd is the 'shift' to opponents arm behind your back to be in a (upright rear clinch). 3rd you have a fair few option but the primary is to place your right leg-buttock behind his left leg-buttock & then push the opponent forward tear the pectoral 7 shoulder tendons & ligaments apart which this also immobilizes the other arm as the shoulder blade locks back. Your free hand hand can then do blows to his side & floater ribs all you want till the opponent suffers internal bleeding to the lungs if you have no concern for their well being! This is 17th & 18th century fisticuffs of naval men & sailors! No honour, no care, just simple biomechanics to render an opponent unable to fight or even live. Pugilism does incorporate pale/Greek wrestling moves like the hip toss but it is a secondary backup. On a seperate note: Ever heard of fish 'hooking'? That was used by traditional boxers & it is were you force your hand down an opponents mouth then split open their cheek permanently. Tearing of appendages like the accessory auricle or ear lobe was common place as well.
''Firemen's carry'' is actually the (arm lift or upper arm lift) more a show boat display in Fisticuffs but you don't throw the opponent like in Judo but roll them forward back 1st to have it Brocken against your leg. Edit: if done correctly in pugilism you never hold the opponent but use clenched fists the whole motion. Hence: lift & not a wheel throw such as Gurama in judo.
Removing grappling didn't make boxing safer, and I don't think that was the intension. Most likely, it was done to prevent stalling and keep the action moving for casual spectators who then as now didn't generally appreciate the finer points of the clinch game.
Hey Chadi… another good video ..(of course):….. hey bro… where can I find that judo 🥋 footage you use many time’s? The footage is in color looks modern and usually had a master demonstrating on another Black belt…. Is there a link?
It seems to be the path of many martial arts. In order to be accepted by the masses, become legal, to become a sport, or for profit many martial arts sacrifice so much. There are the usual ones most know of but some less stules that made massive sacrifices include boxing and Capoeira.
Li em uma reportagem que o Rei do Sião esteve na Inglaterra ,ante da I Guerra Mundial e , aprendeu boxe e judô ,gostaria de saber se você tem alguma informação ,uma grande abraço do Brasil
Chadi I love your videos. Boxing is largely based on Italian sword & dagger fencing. Just like the samurai other swordsman had to wrestle if they lost their weapons. So it’s doesn’t surprise me that boxing had throws. Just comment on Jesse Enkamp video on savate saying the Japanese learn kicking from savate is ridiculous. When France Was colonizing and trading in the Far East, French sailors were expose to the fighting arts of several Asian cultures. They saw Muay Thai , Silat kung fu , and jiujitsu. All of these styles had kicks and tattoos. It’s been long known that French sailors brought these fighting methods back from the East.
All the historians I have read and with whom I have been able to discuss this have told me that it was false. This myth of the sailor bringing back kicking techniques from Asia is an invention of one of the promoters of modern French sports boxing (Comte Pierre de Baruzy) we find no other mention of it elsewhere. However there are other traditional martial arts in the French West Indies (some of which include just a few savate kicks) it is perfectly possible that a confusion may have arisen between these different martial arts. Kicks have been present since antiquity, it's just that before the banning of the sword after the revolution, the high kick was probably also a way of insulting the opponent.
@@leplombier3272 believe what you want to believe it doesn’t make it the truth. All I’m saying is that it’s ridiculous to say that the Japanese got their kicks from savate.
@@lannelbishop3668 we are talking about the modern sport form of karate and not traditional karate itself. Of course, they had their own kicking techniques, but the appearance of flying kicks and modern kicks seem to start after the start of the meiji area (I'm not an expert, but some experts say so). For the simple and good reason that such a kick is hardly usable other than in a sporting and duel setting (especially not in war) Moreover, in practice, the savate of street defense teaches you not to try to put such a kick (risk of loss of balance) unless you have a solid training. At that time, the French army, following the method of the jointville school had completely integrated savate techniques into military training (especially as a form of gymnastics and physical culture) and had been dispatched to Japan by the emperor (as part of the canon mission) to teach the imperial troops modern combat techniques. (like bayonet fencing which has survived in Japan to this day) So it's totally plausible although we don't have definitive proof. (for the moment)
@@leplombier3272 karate originate in Okinawa from combat techniques that largely come from China. Jiujitsu originate from Japan. The Okinawans didn’t learn kicking from the Japanese.
how dangerous would it be in a streetfight or self defense to do that on cement the firemans carry i mean lift and dump especially with your wieght going down as well with him like the dumps? What if they accidentally land on their head?
even before u made this video i always wondered about this whether this technique is too dangerous for the steets or not. I mean how can we control how they land? Plus u could land on ur own head if u do the forward dive right?
Pull up on the arm you are controlling. Itll make his legs heavy and the more u lift the less of his upper body can hit the ground. Turn your head up and look away. Itll drop the shoulder hes on and round your back causing more of a rolling type motion than a suplex/slam.
For those interested, the Kata Guruma would have been allowed in savate, but not in boxing. Just like in Judo, leg grabs were against the rules in boxing. Edited to add: the images used in this Japanese book were taken from an 1889 book on boxing by R. G. Allanson Winn. He is very specific that the fireman's carry is not allowed in a boxing match, and that he only included it as an example of a wrestling throw that a boxer might find useful in a street fight or self defense situation.
@@shinobubooks1500 it's easy enough to find online. I tried posting a link a couple of times but my comments kept getting deleted. Anyway just so you know there are many editions of that book and I don't think all of them include the section with the fireman's carry. The edition from the "All England Series" is what you're looking for and the bit about the fireman's carry starts on p62.
I love how scrambly wrestlers look. You see a judo throw and it looks nice n clean then you see the same thing in wrestling and it’s like the opponent is resisting to the max. It’s like, “NO! I WILL NOT BE THROWN GRACFULLY!!!” 😆😆😆
Hey Chadi did you know African wrestling uses Punches. During slavery when slaves fought in prize fight according to HENRY BIBBS narratives of the time the fight used wrestling with punching and a style known as Knocking and kicking (capoeira). Truth be told it was the RULES that eliminatates the wrestling and kicking and birth modern boxing 🥊
West always relied on equipment and technology to kill since Romans.Even the rear neck choke was derived from Japan.Savate was copied from Chinese as a fancy form and of foot fighting.Martial arts is uniquely Oriental. One of the old bare knuckle boxers mentions that on an island the local inhabitants easily blocked the punches of Englishmen and defeated them.
Humanity has used weapons to fight since we could grab the nearest rock or stick. Both armed and unarmed martial arts is universal. Unarmed fighting is more for duels of honor, sport and in-group conflict resolution. People primarily uses weapons in war.
@@vijayvijay4123 And do you really believe that martial arts is unique to Asia or are you maybe just a supremacist? Different types have popped up on all continents humans have lived.
A lot of old school boxers cross trained with wrestlers
Truth. And some, like Jack Dempsey, trained Boxing, Judo and Wrestling.
New school boxers who also study Jiu Jitsu have proven what a formidable combination they are .
I studied Kodokan Judo in the late 1970s. Many of these old throws are no longer taught. Thank You for bringing back great memories!
0:00 - Introduction
1:15 - Head lock + leg sweep (O so otoshi)
2:45 - Head lock + hip toss (Koshi guruma)
4:20 - Head lock + shoulder toss (Kata guruma)
6:50 - Conclusion
You've done it again, Chadi.
I love learning about the evolution of Martial Arts and seeing how old ways of doing things can be applied today.
Me too !
I'm a western boxer trying to learn pugilistic wrestling for my new MMA passion and some pugilism punches to add to my boxing style
Awesome
Pugilism was, is, a hybrid method of wrestling & striking.
Over time men divided the art into two methods by seperating the striking from the wrestling.
Overtime these became different 'sports' but originally they were one art. Pugilism.
Jack Dempsey was a Judoka, Wrestler and World Champion Boxer.
judoka?
@@nappyheaded it means someone who practices judo
@@ynghuch I know that. I'm asking him if jack dempsey really practiced judo.
@@nappyheaded google it
Jack Dempsey wrote a training manual for US troops in WW2 with the greatest title of all. "HOW TO FIGHT TOUGH"!
Somewhere in England, there is still a catch wrestling club that teaches all of these, along with pugilism (non Queensbury so rabbit punches and forearm clothesline etc included) as part of Western unarmed combat. This is the grappling that stem from fair ground open challenges and theater stage prize-fighting. They have a low opinion of the Judo and Jujitsu that took the Western fairgrounds and theaters by storm from the 1880s claiming that it was promoter hype and rigged matches. The Japanese also insisted on jackets but were ineffectual bare chested according to their club tradition. In open rules, the Japanese were vulnerable to them so promoters were careful to insist on Jujitsu/judo rules that limited their repertoire. They cite Ad Santel as example, destroying kodokan judoka with half Nelson slams and bicep slicers which the Japanese knew nought to defend against. It's been thirty years since I saw the club featured, I'm sure it still exists.
I'd love to see more information on such a club/style.
Brazilian Jujitsu has since grown to be one of the most effective grappling styles in the world but it's interesting to hear that it initially faced issues in the west
Foi maravilhoso encontrar este canal. Sou judoca, ainda faixa branca, e passei por alguns meses pelo boxe inglês e boxe tailandês. Me interesso muito por artes marciais e desportos de combate. No momento estou focado apenas no judo mas desejo aprender algo com outras artes para aprimorar e aperfeiçoar o meu próprio estilo de luta. Ótimos vídeos meu amigo, OSS! 🥋🇧🇷🇯🇵
Thank you for this video, Chadi. I've been taught Savate and Filipino dirty boxing aka Panantukan in MMA class. At home I've been practicing so much on my Savate kicks since I've been watching Professor Salam Assli's Savate videos on TH-cam. In MMA class, I've been sparring so much in both boxing and kickboxing. Now since it's June, we're in review week because starting June 13 is testing week and I'm gonna be testing for a green-black belt on my birthday June 14, Chadi. Once I achieve my green-black belt, I definitely need to exercise my cardio because green-black belt is the last belt in the intermediate level in order to test for a Brown belt to officially be in the advanced level in class. From what I know is that testing for a Brown belt takes four hours so I definitely need to work on my cardio so much in order to survive four hours without any water breaks. Let me be clear, I survived two hours losing my breath when I tested for a purple belt. The brown belt test will be very challenging since it's four hours. But never the less, I'm glad I'm advancing so much in MMA class training harder.
Thanks for showing Historical techniques of various martial arts It's a shame that a lot of this is lost Thanks for bringing it to light
Thanks for always posting interesting content! My Dad was in WWII stationed Europe under General Patton. He picked up a bit of Savate and Jujutsu and showed me what he called "tricks" when I was a kid. Love this old archival stuff.
Very good video Chadi. I wish that you would talk about the trips that also figure in pugilism. I'm of the understanding that there are quite a few documented techniques involving entraping the legs of the opponent and shoving them in different directions, but my wrestling knowledge is very limited so i might be wrong.
Our boy Eric
Congratulations Chadi. This sort of old school mma always enlightens me. Wishing you many more successful years of training and sharing what you learn upon your journey.
Laoshr #60
Ching Yi Kung Fu Association
you have combined all of my favorites, and the histories of these as well. Awesome Chadi
Chadi, you are bad ass, I love all your videos
Good stuff as always Chadi. Collar & elbow wrestling was very popular here in Ireland and we took it with us to America, where it would be blended with boxing in fights.
Fellow Paddy here, are there any sources on those techniques you describe, I'd love to know more.
@@larrycold There's a guy in Ireland who has been reviving the sport for the past few years. His channel is a hero with a thousand holds if you want to check him out.
Excellent video Chadi; however, I wish to inform you that I am a practitioner of traditional pugilism. We in the US refer to it as rough and tumble, and have a master of the art. His last name is Hatmaker and has authored many books on the subject. Once again thank you and God bless you and your family.
@Neb Since I am past birth and both my parents are White. How do you plan to reverse the laws of nature.
REALLY COOL!! Thank you for this video!
Thank you for your work. 🙇🏾♂️
You rock with the obscure grappling styles my guy…three cheers for Chadi y’all c’mon,.
In the Tai Chi style that I train we call the last throw here for step up raise hands. It’s allowed in our Tui Shou “push hands” that is called moving step. Really tricky to do in our competition as we aren’t allowed to touch the floor with anything other than our feet. The trick is you have to go in under them really deep so that you are directly under their center of gravity then it requires no effort at all to lift and throw. The judo demo here seems to require that the person being thrown be very rigid and the thrower uses a lot of muscular force. But looking at that old document you can see how low and deep the person goes in that’s the key. I’m only 75kg 5ft 8in and have managed this on guys over 90kg and 6ft tall. This is a fun one 😊
😎👍 nice three whole years of Chadi, very good content my friend keep it up.
Chadi, I truly love your videos. Merci bcp mon ami 👌
Another great video! I'd love to see you talk about shoot boxing in a future video. Keep it up✊️
Happy anniversary Chadi 🎉
If you look at martial arts treatises from the 16th & 17th centuries in Europe, you'll find a plethora of throws, locks, punching, kicking, & holds that are very comparable to eastern martial arts. After guns, they began to take a back seat & eventually turned into boxing, & wrestling.
A lot of the Kung Fu styles get a bad rap for not being effective but the simple fact is that they are effective & have very good technique.
I didn't know that boxing had throwing techniques, that's really cool.
Thank you for sharing ☺️.
Lol. They do?
@@TOrganic In the 18th century London prize fight rules they did.
@@TOrganic up until Gloved boxing started in the late 19th century
If I have understood it correctly, throws, joint locks etc. were practiced continuously as part of Savate, at some point becoming separate form of practice as Savate Défense. I could be wrong, don't know. It would be interesting to know more about it.
Savate was a martial born in France that had a focus on kicks but it also had some hand strikes techniques, basic throws/trips and cane techniques. Later Savate was mixed with english Pugilism and it gave birth to the Boxe Française with was a mix of pugilism's punches, Savate's kicks with shoes, fencing and french wrestling (nowadays known has greco-roman wrestling). Today was is called Savate-Boxe Française is a sport version that removed throws, weapons and several kicks. Even though it shares the name, Savate-Boxe Française is a very différent beast compared to traditional Savate and Boxe Française.
Throws and locks were mainly part of the "Lutte parisienne" (parisian wrestling) ,a style that disapeared almost completely
@@dhalav Thank You for your anwsers. Do you happen to have sources about the history and development of Savate Défense?
@@hierontatohtori8696 Well I am no expert in this field but it seems that Savate Défense is a modern création. Traditional Boxe Française was meant for self-defense, not sport. Most of the source are in french but you can probably find informations about people like Georges Dubois, Émile André, Joseph Charlemont, Julien Leclerc or Roger Lafond (creator of the Méthode Lafond and one of the last weapon master). If you speak french I recommend you the channel Arts Martiaux Traditionnels Français (it deals mostly with the historical, philosophical and cultural aspects of french martial arts) and Les Arts Martiaux Français (it deals mostly with techniques and history). I recommend you a two part vidéos séries called Comment Faire du MMA Français, it will give you an historical perspective on the grappling part of Boxe Française as well as some technical démonstration
@@dhalav Thank You for info.
Great Job Chadi! 💥 👏🏽
Another great video! Hey, Chadi. Have you ever heard of Capoeira? There are some pretty neat throws and sweeps hidden in there, I'd love to see your take on that.
Fantastic video. I’d love to see you do an analysis of the throws in Muay Thai and which ones you feel are best for other grappling arts. Fascinating topic
I would so love to see someone begin to incorporate muay Thai clench work into judo grip fighting
@@montagistreel I’ve been using the Thai clinch along with foot sweeps lately. It’s working ok but I need to develop the technique more. It’s good control on your opponent’s head though but you have to watch for the underhook to throw by option.
th-cam.com/video/qSJ1FafL3EA/w-d-xo.html
wow ! great content! I find this topic matter fascinating! I feel like a lot of the early prize fighters cross trained in catch wrestling. interesting to see early throws in boxing outside of the Broughton rules.
Always awesome.
Just feeding the algorithm. Awesome old footage!
Hema baby love it chad
I love these videos very technical historical...
🎉🎉 on the 3 years, keep it up
Great topic and some classic stuff!
I remember some older hollywood movies from around the 1930s-1940s with boxing scenes.... possibly a comedy that would show a boxer performing some fireman carry throws... and perhaps more. I'll come back if I find it.
Awesome as a boxer this is.... Interesting
Would love to see you cover the throws and grappling of Thailand's Muay Thai.
th-cam.com/video/cFyblr6EHMY/w-d-xo.html
@@Chadi So cool!
Yes finally a video on old time pugilisms throws
Chadi, I have been thinking about this topic a bit recently and BAM here you are today!
I grew up with my parents heavily involved with Historical European Martial Arts. Most bladed and melee combat as well as archery HOWEVER I have see old drawings of sword techniques combined with some grappling similar to some moves shown in this video. Super interesting topic not as well documented as Eastern martial arts sadly.
Nice!
This was a cool video.
Hi Chadi, an interesting topic may be to compare wrestling techniques in HEMA (historic European Martial Arts) evolved for combat in armor with traditional samurai origins of Jujitsu. The good persons to collaborate on this topic would be Matt from Scholagladiatoria and Metatron, both great youtubers.
The Fireman's Carry to a Brian Buster Slam is also called a "Death Valley Driver" or FU/AA in prowrestling
If I remember right the osoto atoshi technique where the throw is done wrapping the neck instead of catching the face called kubi wah, in Okinawan.
I wonder if any techniques survived in unarmed combat systems being taught to western militaries. To transition from a punch or strike to a hip or shoulder throw sounds like a good hand to hand combat technique.
Hey chadi can you make vid about different types/styles of wrestling/catch...folk style... and what is the best style for mma
it looks like in almost every video chadi brings kata guruma 🙂
I just love it
There seem to have been some leg sweeps too, but not the ones I'm used to from other sports. Savate has a really aggressive one where you punch and then kick the legs which works as a sweep.
BTW: I don't know why, but I can't pull off an iriminage. I can only do a variation where I use my palm to push his head up. Even then, it's way easier for me to sweep.
The music is sick..who is it?
This is how Honest Abe and Teddy Roosevelt fight
Wow I didn't know that competitions with leg grabs are still happening somewhere in the world
Hi Chadi, I want to know what's your take on Cambodian wrestling or Khmer wrestling?
My Dad's favorite throw was what He called The Fireman's Carry.
Kata Garuma. It's in Judo's curriculum and Seiunchin Kata of Karate.
Hey chadi what is the throw at 7:18
That 1st one isn't a ''throw'' lad.
-It's a (shoulder wrench).
Followed with a rearward reap similar to a sweep that uses the sole or side of the foot but a reap uses a hooking like motion the leg to grasp the leg you pull to force the dislocation.
A wretch is for dislocating & ripping apart joints by using the opponents weight with your body as anchor.
Human shoulder is the easiest joint to dislocate.
It can be used as throw position but that is secondary purpose if the primary as a wretch is not possible.
I am traditional bare-knuckle boxer or fisticuffs as my Great grand father & grand father instructed me in my infancy.
These few of many method only present in English Fisticuffs are not allowed in a ring & with good reason due to the permeant injuries they cause.
One of the 1st banned set of motion were what's called a couple lock as this had 19/20 chance of fatality.
You look at this to much like grappler as Judo user.
Boxing even traditional bare-knuckle boxing=fisticuffs is not wresting-grappling.
That is not a hip toss or Koshi Gurama even if similar in appearance the steps are not shown but can't blame the author as a Judo practitioner.
What is shown is motion 1 & an optional 3rd.
1st is a the approach to a (rear clinch)
2nd is the 'shift' to opponents arm behind your back to be in a (upright rear clinch).
3rd you have a fair few option but the primary is to place your right leg-buttock behind his left leg-buttock & then push the opponent forward tear the pectoral 7 shoulder tendons & ligaments apart which this also immobilizes the other arm as the shoulder blade locks back.
Your free hand hand can then do blows to his side & floater ribs all you want till the opponent suffers internal bleeding to the lungs if you have no concern for their well being!
This is 17th & 18th century fisticuffs of naval men & sailors!
No honour, no care, just simple biomechanics to render an opponent unable to fight or even live.
Pugilism does incorporate pale/Greek wrestling moves like the hip toss but it is a secondary backup.
On a seperate note:
Ever heard of fish 'hooking'?
That was used by traditional boxers & it is were you force your hand down an opponents mouth then split open their cheek permanently.
Tearing of appendages like the accessory auricle or ear lobe was common place as well.
''Firemen's carry'' is actually the (arm lift or upper arm lift) more a show boat display in Fisticuffs but you don't throw the opponent like in Judo but roll them forward back 1st to have it Brocken against your leg.
Edit: if done correctly in pugilism you never hold the opponent but use clenched fists the whole motion.
Hence: lift & not a wheel throw such as Gurama in judo.
I think Canelo tried one of these on Bivol lol
Boxing with the introduction of gloves and MORE rules resulted in Boxers forgetting that people might try to throw or take them down.
Removing grappling didn't make boxing safer, and I don't think that was the intension. Most likely, it was done to prevent stalling and keep the action moving for casual spectators who then as now didn't generally appreciate the finer points of the clinch game.
Hey Chadi… another good video ..(of course):….. hey bro… where can I find that judo 🥋 footage you use many time’s? The footage is in color looks modern and usually had a master demonstrating on another Black belt…. Is there a link?
They come from the official Kodokan Judo channel
@@dhalav thank you. I found them. Appreciated
It seems to be the path of many martial arts. In order to be accepted by the masses, become legal, to become a sport, or for profit many martial arts sacrifice so much. There are the usual ones most know of but some less stules that made massive sacrifices include boxing and Capoeira.
Li em uma reportagem que o Rei do Sião esteve na Inglaterra ,ante da I Guerra Mundial e , aprendeu boxe e judô ,gostaria de saber se você tem alguma informação ,uma grande abraço do Brasil
👍🏽
Chad tu fala português?
Chadi I love your videos. Boxing is largely based on Italian sword & dagger fencing. Just like the samurai other swordsman had to wrestle if they lost their weapons. So it’s doesn’t surprise me that boxing had throws.
Just comment on Jesse Enkamp video on savate saying the Japanese learn kicking from savate is ridiculous. When France Was colonizing and trading in the Far East, French sailors were expose to the fighting arts of several Asian cultures. They saw Muay Thai , Silat kung fu , and jiujitsu. All of these styles had kicks and tattoos. It’s been long known that French sailors brought these fighting methods back from the East.
All the historians I have read and with whom I have been able to discuss this have told me that it was false.
This myth of the sailor bringing back kicking techniques from Asia is an invention of one of the promoters of modern French sports boxing (Comte Pierre de Baruzy) we find no other mention of it elsewhere.
However there are other traditional martial arts in the French West Indies (some of which include just a few savate kicks) it is perfectly possible that a confusion may have arisen between these different martial arts.
Kicks have been present since antiquity, it's just that before the banning of the sword after the revolution, the high kick was probably also a way of insulting the opponent.
@@leplombier3272 believe what you want to believe it doesn’t make it the truth. All I’m saying is that it’s ridiculous to say that the Japanese got their kicks from savate.
@@lannelbishop3668 we are talking about the modern sport form of karate and not traditional karate itself.
Of course, they had their own kicking techniques, but the appearance of flying kicks and modern kicks seem to start after the start of the meiji area (I'm not an expert, but some experts say so). For the simple and good reason that such a kick is hardly usable other than in a sporting and duel setting (especially not in war)
Moreover, in practice, the savate of street defense teaches you not to try to put such a kick (risk of loss of balance) unless you have a solid training.
At that time, the French army, following the method of the jointville school had completely integrated savate techniques into military training (especially as a form of gymnastics and physical culture) and had been dispatched to Japan by the emperor (as part of the canon mission) to teach the imperial troops modern combat techniques. (like bayonet fencing which has survived in Japan to this day)
So it's totally plausible although we don't have definitive proof. (for the moment)
@@leplombier3272 karate originate in Okinawa from combat techniques that largely come from China. Jiujitsu originate from Japan. The Okinawans didn’t learn kicking from the Japanese.
@@lannelbishop3668 we are not talking about traditional okinawans karate but modern sportive one
how dangerous would it be in a streetfight or self defense to do that on cement the firemans carry i mean lift and dump especially with your wieght going down as well with him like the dumps? What if they accidentally land on their head?
even before u made this video i always wondered about this whether this technique is too dangerous for the steets or not. I mean how can we control how they land? Plus u could land on ur own head if u do the forward dive right?
Pull up on the arm you are controlling. Itll make his legs heavy and the more u lift the less of his upper body can hit the ground. Turn your head up and look away. Itll drop the shoulder hes on and round your back causing more of a rolling type motion than a suplex/slam.
@@mac3770 dont let your head get to the opposite side of his centerline and you can land in scarfhold.
Чхарек!
Hey Chadi,
I'm wondering about the orgins of the Darce choke.
Was it from actually invented by Joe D’arce, or is it in any old scripture/documents?
th-cam.com/video/Ghp9BABL7Qo/w-d-xo.html
Could the Japanese have taken these moves from Savat?
Wow! We should bring it back mma already has everything in it expected the deadly killing technics.
Wait.... BOXING ALREADY HAVE THROWS AND KICKS?? why they banned this :(
the old school savate was martial art now is more sport....there is karate taekwondo as martial art and have also the sport version
The first video had kind of a Jerry Lewis vibe.
По моему это французский бокс/ сават
For those interested, the Kata Guruma would have been allowed in savate, but not in boxing. Just like in Judo, leg grabs were against the rules in boxing.
Edited to add: the images used in this Japanese book were taken from an 1889 book on boxing by R. G. Allanson Winn. He is very specific that the fireman's carry is not allowed in a boxing match, and that he only included it as an example of a wrestling throw that a boxer might find useful in a street fight or self defense situation.
That’s interesting, I wonder if the Japanese book is a translation of that, or is based on it. (I only read a few sections)
@@shinobubooks1500 Unfortunately I can't read Japanese, so no idea.
@@Stephen_Curtin I’ll try and find that Winn book and compare the two
@@shinobubooks1500 it's easy enough to find online. I tried posting a link a couple of times but my comments kept getting deleted. Anyway just so you know there are many editions of that book and I don't think all of them include the section with the fireman's carry. The edition from the "All England Series" is what you're looking for and the bit about the fireman's carry starts on p62.
@@Stephen_Curtin Awesome, thanks
I love how scrambly wrestlers look. You see a judo throw and it looks nice n clean then you see the same thing in wrestling and it’s like the opponent is resisting to the max. It’s like, “NO! I WILL NOT BE THROWN GRACFULLY!!!” 😆😆😆
Western boxing throws?
yep
가라데야 뭐야
Kata-guruma otherwise known as a good way to eat a knee. Ummm yummy...
Автоперевод нужен на русский язык.
Hey Chadi did you know African wrestling uses Punches. During slavery when slaves fought in prize fight according to HENRY BIBBS narratives of the time the fight used wrestling with punching and a style known as Knocking and kicking (capoeira). Truth be told it was the RULES that eliminatates the wrestling and kicking and birth modern boxing 🥊
.
so the western people always knew how to fight and never needed any slants all along.
West always relied on equipment and technology to kill since Romans.Even the rear neck choke was derived from Japan.Savate was copied from Chinese as a fancy form and of foot fighting.Martial arts is uniquely Oriental.
One of the old bare knuckle boxers mentions that on an island the local inhabitants easily blocked the punches of Englishmen and defeated them.
Humanity has used weapons to fight since we could grab the nearest rock or stick. Both armed and unarmed martial arts is universal.
Unarmed fighting is more for duels of honor, sport and in-group conflict resolution. People primarily uses weapons in war.
@@sunte91 Then why historically no Europeans lifted their knee above thier hip level , i .e, never kicked above waist ?
@@vijayvijay4123 They did and still do. Pankration, Kickboxing etc. maybe you just don’t knew about it.
@@vijayvijay4123 And do you really believe that martial arts is unique to Asia or are you maybe just a supremacist? Different types have popped up on all continents humans have lived.
@@sunte91 It's not supremacy but uniqueness.Asians and Africans have martial arts but Europeans were different.
REALLY COOL!! Thank you for this video!