What's the plural of OCTOPUS? It's more complicated than you think [Tales from the English language]
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ต.ค. 2024
- LetThemTalkTV presents a new series Tales From the English Language. In this episode we look at why and how the word octopus has four correct plurals. It something you might not know and it has an interesting history going all the way back to the early 18th century when octopus replaced the English words poulp and preke.
Intermediate and advanced English lessons with subtitles on our TH-cam channel. Brought to you by LetThemTalk language school in Paris
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Hello from Greece!
*Octópus* literally means something with eight feet: (oktṓ, “eight”) + (poús, “foot”). It's also the octopus in Ancient Greek.
*Octópodes* is the plural of octópus, as well as the biological classification which contains the octopus and some other types.
*Octápoda* is the plural of octópus in modern Greek.
*Chtapodi* or *ktapodi* is the octopus in modern Greek.
*Chtapodia* or *ktapodia* is the plural of the octopus in modern Greek.
Interesting maybe I'll start saying octapoda
LetThemTalkTV haha 😆
BTW, I check out of curiosity:
Octopi used as the plural form of octopus is hypercorrect because -us → -i is the rule for forming plurals of originally-masculine nouns of the Latin second declension, whereas octopus actually derives from Ancient Greek and has the plural form octopodes consistent with its etymology.
Isn't that what I said in the video?
LetThemTalkTV yes, sorry I didn’t mean to argue. It’s just very interesting the fact that is treated this way + I didn’t know that the term ‘hypercorrect’ has this meaning.
This is very enlightening, thanks!
It's probably among the least useful elements of knowledge about English I've heard but definitely among the most interesting ones.
I agree
Since I'm in isolation and have nothing else to do... 😉 I'm watching all of your old videos. They're great. I'm learning a lot!
As always, I'd like to compare it to Dutch, since it's my mother tongue and so close to English.
The normal plural for octopus in Dutch is octopussen (following Dutch plural rules).
We also do use the word datum (for date, as in "today's date is the first of March", "de datum van vandaag is 1 maart"), plural "data".
The English use of the word "data" as in "he collected all the data", we also use as a loan word from English "hij verzamelde alle data", even though we also still use the native word "gegevens".
Like with other English loan words, we usually use them when talking about IT (English & Dutch) /computers (English and Dutch).
My personal favourite : "game", which in Dutch is only used for a video game. The native word "spelletje" is sometimes used for video game, but more often for a board game or something. For games not played on a computer...
Octopussies are delicious! BTW, from this lesson I liked the word *plonker* best
I'll say. You can say that again. Excuse me? What does the British slang word "plonker" mean? Does it mean a fool or a penis or a man who sanctions sexual relationships between his girlfriend and his male friends?
Hello Rezza, I don't know if you care anymore but plonker means a foolish person.
Pulpo a feira search for recipie , delicious but dificult to Cook and a bit cruel because You have to Beat the Octopus before killing it
Yes, plural: plonkers or plonki or plonkodes.
@@helloiamrobert8961 Hi Robert. Thank you for your explanation about the meaning of plonker.
Amazing explanation! Thank you so much!
The word you're looking for is *ocTÒpodes* (at least in our language that's the correct accent) . I'm from Italy, our language shares a common base with the modern Greek (our language comes straight from ancient latin, but we use a lot of ancient greek terms, especially related to medicine, biology, math etc). The octopus is part of the ocTÒpodes order, which contains several varieties of "eight legged" mollusks
Interesting thanks
@@LetThemTalkTV, how about octopussies?
Well, to be honest English is way too overcomplicated!
How am I supposed to get my head around that kind of weirdom?
I'd rather stick with Russian! Enjoying seafood the Russian way is much more fun.
Nominative case singular осьминог and plural осьминоги
Genitive case singular осьминога and plural осьминогов
Dative case singular осьминогу and pluralосьминогам
Accusative case singular осьминога and pluralосьминогов
Instrumental case singular осьминогом and pluralосьминогами
Prepositional case singular осьминоге and plural осьминогах
But you could also go for:
каракатица, каракатицы
каракатицы, каракатиц
каракатице, каракатицам
каракатицу, каракатиц
каракатицею, каракатицами
каракатице, каракатицах
Not as posh but also common is:
спрут, спруты
спрута, спрутов
спруту, спрутам
спрута, спрутов
спрутом, спрутами
спруте, спрутах
Hi from Greece! 🙂
The plural of octopus in Greek language sounds like octopodus
(it means something with 8 legs)
If you visit Greece you should eat grilled octopus.. it's delicious!! 😊
Thanks for the Greek grammar.
A great episode! Thank you very much! As a researcher (I am Polish) I have always looked at these Latin or Greek terms in English with great interest. Especially the term "data" always seemed to me quite interesting and I had problems with using it (data "is", not "are" ...).
Thanks. I too had a doubt about data. You have to make a choice bad English or bad Latin
American here; I rather like this fellow. *subscribes*
Big up! I have just known why Octopus has four plural forms from you, Gideon. What a so nice observation! Brilliant! This is rocket science because all of this is new to me, to be honest. Thank you so much for this super great lesson!
Thanks for the great comment.
My pleasure.
As someone who is somewhat fluent in Latin, I prefer to use "octopuses" in English … In nearly all cases a 3rd declension noun (whether Greek or Latin) should be pluralized in English by appending "-s" or "-es" to the singular, using the same rule as for native English words. (Colors, animals, actors, omens, etc. We wouldn't say colores, animalia, actores, or omina) A handful (mostly ending in "x") keep their original Latin plurals: indices, appendices, etc. But we can also say indexes or appendixes; those are just as correct as the Latin plurals, and in many contexts the English plurals are preferred. (I would expect the Latin plurals to disappear eventually.)
But do we have any other 3rd declension "-us" nouns in English? Onus, corpus, opus, genus. Probably others. (Technically the goddess Venus would be on that list but as there's only one of her we don't need to worry about making her plural.) How do we make those plural? Would you say onera, corpora, opera, and genera? Or onuses, corpuses, opuses, genuses. Ok, you might say genera, but most likely not the others aside from formal written uses. (Opera of course has become an entirely different word in English, with a singular meaning, and is probably never used to mean multiple opuses in contemporary usage.) My web browser is underlining onera in red so I think we can safely dismiss that Latin plural. Those four all happen to be neuter in Latin, so they have "-a'" plurals (as all neuter nouns must, regardless of declension). Masculine or feminine nouns in the 3rd declension always have an "-es" ending. The plural of Venus-if you could clone a goddess-would be Veneres, for example. But we'd just use Venuses in English. I suppose the two big groups of 3rd declension nouns where you really do still need to use the Latin plurals are the "-is" words (axis/axes, crisis/crises, parenthesis/parenteses, testis/testes) and the "-ies" words (species/species, series/series). I think some of the "-is" words are starting to gain more regular "-ises" plurals in English, whereas the "-ies" words will continue to be like fish and sheep.
I'd argue that "data" has become a mass noun in English, rather than a count noun. Sure, we use "datum" occasionally in technical contexts, but the everyday English usage of the word is more akin to how we use the words "bread" or "furniture".
I suppose another question one must ask is whether the Romans would have placed "octopus" in the 3rd declension at all. After all, octopus is NOT a classical Latin word; it's a scientific Latin word from the 1750s, based on the Ancient Greek word. The usual Latin word for octopus was "polypus" (which for a time the more common term in English) which is a 2nd declension noun! My ancient Greek is very, very minimal (just a semester of 5th century (BC) Attic Greek) but based on the OED's entry for the English word "polypus" it looks like the various dialects of ancient Greek disagreed on whether to classify polypus as 2nd or 3rd declension. I don't know whether there was any similar confusion around ὀκτώπους, but it seems likely the Romans would have made octopus a 2nd declension noun in Latin by analogy with polypus, in which case they'd have used octopi for the nominative plural rather than octopodes.
By the way, modern Greek pronunciation is absolutely nothing like any of the various dialects of ancient Greek. So asking modern Greek speakers for an English pronunciation of a Latinized ancient Greek word is a bit silly.
Cartographers use the word "datum" frequently, but it's a specialist term. I am often seized by worry when writing "the data is ..." so I avoid the problem and use "information", or something similar. Enjoy your videos btw even though I'm a native English speaker. Insight is helpful in learning other languages.
Dear Gideon, as you have talked about datum and data, I would like to point out media v/s medium. Whenever I see media used with a verb in the singular, it sounds incorrect to me in a certain way, having in mind the fact that it actually is a plural originally. However, I do have to respect the English grammar rule, regardless of the etymology.
Thank you for your video! That was an excellent presentation of the four plurals.
I would like to add that the Greek word "octo" can be seen in other words, such as octagon (eight angles), octave (consisting of eight notes) and octogenarian.
The Greek word pus (=foot) can also be seen in words such as platypus and Oedipus. Oedipus (Oedi + pus) means "swollen foot", because according to the myth, when the ill-fated Oedipus was a child, his feet were pinned together and they were swollen as a result. The word "oedema" means swelling and it's the first part of the name Oedipus, the second one being, of course, pus (=foot).
Dear Gideon, your videos about the English language are always very interesting! You have such a great way of coming up with vivid examples and you make your lesson exciting and engaging to the listener/learner. This lively way of conveying knowledge is a talent that you possess. Having the actual knowledge is not enough for an educator if he can't impart it effectively, which you most definitely do! Thank you for that. Warm greetings from Greece.
I agree with you Gideon, sometimes it's bad Latin but...it's good English! . You know,there are some courses,, here in Italy, where Latin is taught as to be read with an English pronunciation. It's crazy! We should respect the Greek or Latin origin of words...it could be an opportunity to learn more and appreciate them. Fortunatly you do it...you are our superhero!
Interesting. thanks for your comment.
It was a new knowledge, Thankyou.
And recently I learned that singular of
Spaghetti : Spaghetto
Confetti : confetto
🌻🌻🌻
Yeah! These words come from Italian; you may also be surprised by the fact that, in Italy, "confetti" has a completely different meaning: they're like hard colorful little candies, usually eaten during special occasions, such as weddings.
@@cayleyhamilton3248 , that's interesting.
Stay safe, peace✌
Thanks. Yes, but I can't remember the last time I ordered one spaghetto
@@cayleyhamilton3248 Interesting.
What are confetti in english?
@@LetThemTalkTV In italy usually you use the plural, because a single dish is made by many spaghetti.
You use "spaghetto" (that means "little string") if you are referring literally to a single one.
Well, Gideon should ask some octopuses/octopi etc. which plural is their favourite 😉 Loved this video, by the way!
I will try that. Thanks
Great lesson, like all other lessons. It is a real pleasure to listen.
The pleasure is mine
That’s a great video, I just enjoy them so much. Actually learned that salmon is pronounced with no l.
Btw what plural should be formed for the word glasnost? It’s not quite obvious how would you choose to transcribe the Cyrillic.
I have no idea what the plural of glasnost is. Perhaps we use the Russian plural.
Isn't it uncountable? Like, say, curiosity. I've never heard "glasnost" used in plural in Russian.
Andy neither have I, but I reckon there’s a situation where it should be appropriate
@@loshadkinloshadkin725 Can't come up with one)) I believe, if such a rare situation happens, it's fine to use glasnoststststs))) Better be in writing, not speaking
The russian plural is adding "i" in the end, like in all Slavic languages, except for some bizarre reason, russians don't use the dotted "i..." Though "glasnosti" is not a thing. Use "perestroika" instead, plural is "perestroiki".
I am not from Greece, nor do I speak Greek. However I believe the plural version spelled ‘Octopodes’ is actually pronounced: Octo-(as it sounds) Podes- (Pods. Like in: Apple makes “iPods”, Then remove the “i”)
Well, I guess I am at high risk for plonkerhood (from the German Plonkerheit), because we learned that distinction between data and datum in school, and my present day colleagues and I still use it in writing technical reports and what have you in the environmental and engineering consulting bidnazz (that word is a Texas-ism. I think). As you say, I think a person is unlikely to say, "Here, now, have a look at this datum." It is a more likely usage that you are comparing the rest of the data to a single reference point, whether temporally or spatially, e.g., "the water level depths in the wells were measured relative to a ground surface datum."
Anyway, thanks for putting out these videos. I am not an ESL learner, but I enjoy hearing about the history and the varieties of the English language and the way in which you present lessons and your experiences in the art of teaching.
Thank you Gideon for interesting video!l ll use the good english plural "octopi",custom makes law!Stay safe and healthy!🤗
Very informative and useful lesson. Thanks, can you cover collocations next. Much appreciated
Ok. Thanks
Very interesting, indeed!
You are great
Thanks
What's more interesting is that an octopus anatomically has three hearts.
That's curious. We say pulpo in Spanish, pretty much as English used to. Apparently it also comes from Greek, meaning many feet, rather than 8 feet. Btw, I find quite funny that in the picture you actually have 8 arms and no feet.
Pulp = pulpo en español 🐙 What a revelation 🥰 love your videos! Greetings from Germany 💕
Great
yes you are
Thanks for all your interesting lessons! I always enjoy watching them so much! What about "metres" and "meters"? I've seen many "2 metres distance" in UK and I thought that was wrong ...?
Nope, you are definitely on to something here. Kilometres and the 1.75 metres I am tall is very different to someone metering out some nice chocolate squares I s’pose.
Metre/meter, theatre/theater, centre/center, litre/liter etc. are just spelling variants IIRK the weirder one is more British and other is less?..
"2-metre distance" (UK) "2-meter distance" (US).
Like as always👍
Thanks as always.
I love your channel very much and u r funny
Poulps or preke, lovely. Are these two words still in use? Much of thanks
No, not at all. Which is a pity.
@@LetThemTalkTV Maybe in some rural dialects which speakers are mostly fishermen?
If there are any small fishermen left in the UK.
We do have them a lot here in Croatia and they have so many different words for sea creatures.
Poulps sounds very much like pulpo, which is Italian for octopus (plural I think? ‘insalata di pulpo’). Common Latin roots? Preke on the other hand...
Thank you for your efforts sir. Having the word as octopus, however, increases the latin/greek root issue though. I personally as a German speaker found it amusing since in German "Acht" means eight "octa" and "Fuß" means foot as in "pus". And the entire thing makes it self-explanatory to recognise the word for a second-language learner. So it's not all in vain 😊. I do still enjoy every proper English word I learn from you. So, much obliged
Hi, I am Greek, In modern Greek it is "htapodi" , in ancient Greek Oktapous or Oktopous. Okto in greek is the eight "oto" in Latin. Pous is the foot. Modern Greek podi. (o)ktapodi is a creature with
eight legs. Foot and Pous is the same , like football . Because it absolutely Greek but sounds "latin" , maybe this is the cause of 4 plurals.
So in Greek football is Pousball?
@@LetThemTalkTV In fact it is "podosfero" podi +sphere , sphere = like atmosphere, sphere of authority , sphere = ball or globe earth . If you speak Greek and have some very basic knowledge of latin, you can recognize too many words in english vocabulary . I have read a book about indoeuropean languages and comparison of languages etc. It is amazing how many common things you can find. Common things are not only the vocabulary but in grammar and syntax. You think that Greek and English are too totally different languages but if you follow few courses in Chinese or Arabic or Turkish, then you realize that European languages are kids of same family (excluding Finland Hungarians and Vasks)
What's difference between say and tell, see and look
Be careful Gideon. In the dictionary that you show in this video I can see the pronunciation of the fonems "octopi" , it doesn´t finish in /ai/ (diptongue) but /I/. Am I right? i´m not sure. In Latin every plural finished in i is pronunced /I/ . as fungi, cacti, stimuli, nuclei. All of those are latin words and in Latin are pronuciated in /I/ . Does English acept latin words in normal speech. For sure you could answer this question better than me. Perhaps it open a big controversial dialogue. Perhaps persons who know Latin can help. By the way Google for me always is a fast answer, but for sure not always the most reliable. Of course it doesn´t change anything, Gideon is the best teacher I have ever had. I´ll wait for a response from someone who can help. Regards.
Thanks a lot for your comment. I use /ai:/ for all those plurals
I'll have it in mind.
I'll bear that in mind. I think you touch that I another video.
Those dictionaries don't use IPA. You're correct though, Latin uses /I/
Greek third declension nominative πούς ( pous - singular) πόδες (podes- plural). Latin 2th declension -us (singular) -i (plural). My question is if the plural form octopus is not a variant of the 4th declension in Latin -us (singular) -ūs (plural).
I dont understand the question.
@@LetThemTalkTV I am questioning if the pair Octopus/Octopus (singular/Plural) doesn't belong from the 4th declension in Latin like the pair Octopus/Octopusi came from 2nd. It is quite probable the misuse of the Latin one instead of Greek plural, for both cases. I would like your comment.
🌺💙❤❤❤💙🌺
Great lesson
Thank you indeed 🌺
My pleasure
OMG, have you recorded this after my comment? 😀
We made another video on irregular plurals from foreign languages you might like
I hereby introduce a fifth plural for octopus: Octopussy. It's the most delicious plural there is.
Sir,
I have a doubt?AS IF
Are these Sentences correct?
Do you agree with this?
Could you please tell me?
After as if and as though we often use a past tense with a present meaning. This shows that the comparison is unreal. A present tense, on the other hand, shows that we are talking about real and possible situations.
1)She talks as if / as though she knows everything. (Perhaps she knows everything.)
2)She talks as if / as though she knew everything. (But she doesn’t.
3)They look as if / as though they know each other. (Perhaps they know each other.)
4)They look as if / as though they knew each other. (But they don’t know each other.)
Both forms are correct. Depending on exactly what you're talking about the meaning can change. "as though" is almost always neutral, you're just observing the world and making a guess about what you see. Now if you're speaking about something that you would be expected by the listener to have deeper knowledge of then saying "as if" implies a moderate amount of doubt or skepticism. If the listener could assume you know little about a subject then "as if" becomes much more neutral, but still shows a little doubt. In your examples to mean what you put in parens you'd use 1) as though, 2) as if, 3) as though, 4) either.
The discussion of food plurals seems very odd - these are collective singular nouns, are they not? You wouldn't say, "In Japan they eat many octopus," would you? "Many" demands a true plural, and "octopus" is not it. Octopus can be used to refer to one member of the species, or to the one species "octopus" - both singular.
Even so, this is a fascinating discussion!
Thank you for your interesting comment. It's not correct though. Octopus is being used as a plural it's not just a opinion you find examples everywhere. The newspaper I quote is just one such example. It takes a plural verb. You say "octopus are delicious" just as you say "oranges are delicious" or "fish are delicious".
Would it not be more natural to say instead "In Japan they eat a lot of octopus" in this particular case?
I've never heard anyone mentioning "eating many cod" or "eating many fish" (while it should be technically correct to say it).
'Octopus' in this case would refer to the kind of food rather than an object that can be quantified and therefore the phrase 'a lot of' would be employed as the nature of the 'octopus' here is non-countable.
Similarly, we won't say "They eat many cows / calfs in England" but rather "They eat a lot of beef / veal in England".
Isn't the "u" stretched when using the plural?
I'm not a native speaker, but I never say "the data *is* correct", to me it sounds awfully wrong. If you don't want to say "datum" (which you probably don't want to), say "a piece of data" (like a piece of advice), or "some data", "a chunk of data", whatever. As a software engineer, I've never had difficulties with that so far and I've been always referring to data in plural. Thanks for the video!
Optopi is octopus pie.
So which one was it? Octopi or octopodes?
Octopia.
An eight-seater attraction at Disneyland.
Soooo funny! Octopus is the most famous debit card in Hong Kong.
Re u Antoine Rigaudeau?
its octapoda (ancient greek )
A lot of English is bad Latin.
You are an amusing individual right there
With Germanic grammer.
I don't know if Octopus is latin origine... it's a least a latin scientific term, who is not exactly the same... Name in latin scientific sound like latin but it's not obligatory from latin... some times for exemple it's from greck.... So I'm biologist, I am like you, it's a scientific latin name, but really latin? I don't know we'll a to ask with a teacher of latin.
Correct, it's scientific Latin, dating to the 1750s. It wasn't regularly used in Classical Latin (where the usual word for octopus was polypus (plural polypi) although I believe the word did pop up occasionally in Latin translations of Greek works.
The disease lupus is of four kinds: SLE (most common type), cutaneous lupus, neonatal lupus, and drug-induced lupus.
The four lupuses...
The four lupodes...
The four lupi...
The four lupus...
I am bafflusterplexed!!
I didn't know. Interesting if a little obscure.
I think this animal has a problem with many languages, in the Arabic language also has the weirdest plural. its legs are certainly the main reason.
There's a 5-th plural form of octopus that you don't know which is 'octopussies'.
OK so now the whole problem will be to use octopuses in real life in everyday talk 🤔
O, ton, tu, tow.. Yes I know my greek !
You look Like a college teacher who is done with his students... In fact done with everyone... Good channel though.
I don't trust Google.
*It attempts to correct things with no errors such as a unique spelling of a name which disrupts my internet search.
*It's English to Spanish translations and vice versa are somewhat of a joke at times. (Although they have gotten better with that in recent years)
Octopussies
Plonka? It's Greek?
definitely
English is weirder than I thought. Would you explain why it's "a vacuum"? When it's about the physical state, not the cleaner. It should've been uncountable, yet I see it with "a" everywhere
Sometimes there is no rule, just a common usage that has become accepted. The original meaning of vacuum was "the absence of anything" or "a place where there is nothing." In this sense it is kind of countable or has a defined area. The common usage carried over when we discovered more about our physical world and air molecules. A vacuum in the lab is still kind of countable. When we speak about things outside our atmosphere we do call it "the vacuum of space."
Please do show some kindness to Google God. Veni, vidi, vici
I'll be careful in future
I thought that octopi is correct
Haha, yes, you do sound brainy. ;)