The True Nature of the Citadel is Darker than You Think. Let's talk about the Order of Maesters.
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ก.ย. 2024
- Maesters of the First Men were SLAVES. A deep dive into the history of the Ancient Order of Maesters.
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What was the true nature of the order of Maesters at the time it was established?
In A Song of Ice and Fire and Game of Thrones, The order of Maesters is incredibly ancient, and was an establishment of the First Men thousands of years before the arrival of the Andals. In fact, the order is so ancient that its origins are described as mysterious by the history books. But Most credit its founding to the second son of the first Hightower King known as Uthor of the High Tower. The son in question was Prince Peremore the Twisted. Who is described as “A sickly boy, born with a withered arm and twisted back”. It is said that he yearned for knowledge and to quench his thirst he surrounded himself with wise men, priests, healers, wizards, alchemists, and sorcerers known as "Peremore's pets". And When Peremore died, it is said his brother King Urrigon established the Citadel so that they might continue teaching and learning.
In present day Westeros the contemporary maesters are educated men trained at the Citadel of Oldtown who serve as advisors, healers and tutors and have a role within the courts of all of the great lords. Young men from every walk of life come to the Citadel to learn and forge their chain, which is a mark of their order with each link forged in a different metal representing their mastery in a different subject, gold for sums, lead for poisons, black Iron for Ravenry and so on. Once their chain is forged and the Maesters vows are spoken, their chain is donned and is never to be removed.
Cressen's fingers went to the chain about his neck, each link forged from a different metal, each symbolizing his mastery of another branch of learning; the maester's collar, mark of his order.
As you may already be aware, the customs and traditions and symbols of ancient institutions can derive rather arcane origins. And the tradition of Maesters wearing a chain has always been a curious one. Of course we are given an explanation for why they wear chains... In Jon five of A Game of Thrones Jon tells us that "𝐚 𝐦𝐚𝐞𝐬𝐭𝐞𝐫'𝐬 𝐜𝐨𝐥𝐥𝐚𝐫 𝐢𝐬 𝐦𝐚𝐝𝐞 𝐨𝐟 𝐜𝐡𝐚𝐢𝐧 𝐭𝐨 𝐫𝐞𝐦𝐢𝐧𝐝 𝐡𝐢𝐦 𝐭𝐡𝐚𝐭 𝐡𝐞 𝐢𝐬 𝐬𝐰𝐨𝐫𝐧 𝐭𝐨 𝐬𝐞𝐫𝐯𝐞"
Interestingly another term used for the maester’s chain is a "collar" and a collar is the same term used in ASOIAF to describe the neck device worn by slaves as a symbol of their slave status. (3/)
"You do not tell soldiers what to do," Scar said."Soldiers?" Tyrion affected puzzlement. "Slaves, is what I see. You wear a collar round your neck the same as me."The savage backhand blow Scar dealt him knocked him to the ground and broke his lip. "Yezzan's collar. Not yours."A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion XI
The old man was not convinced. "Ah, they found corpses by the hundred. They dragged them inside the pit and burned them, though half was crisp already. Might be they didn't know her, burned and bloody and crushed. Might be they did but decided to say elsewise, to keep you slaves quiet.""Us slaves?" said the brown woman. "You wear a collar too.""Ghazdor's collar," the old man boasted."A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion XI
In a Feast for Crows Aeron Greyjoy makes a similar observation calling Gorold Goodbrother’s maester a chain necked thrall, and thinking to himself that No proper man would choose a life of thralldom, nor forge a chain of servitude to wear about his throat. A Feast for Crows - The Prophet.
So knowing that the Order of Maesters is incredibly ancient, its quite possible this custom could be live as hints or remnants of its mysterious earliest beginnings. lets continue this train of thought and take a closer look at what we already know
Keywords: asoiaf, asoiaf theories, dance with dragons, winds of winter, song of ice and fire, GRRM, TWoW, game of thrones, house of the dragon theories, Maesters, Citadel, Oldtown, House Hightower, history and lore
#ASOIAF #asongoficeandfire #HOTD
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I always saw it that the Maesters are happy to wear symbols of Thralldom because it puts their lords at ease, and allows them to continue to underestimate the Grey Rats in their midst.
Doran martell if theories are correct also wears a shield of weakness doubt the gout
Indeed
Wasn't it Cersei who called them the Grey Rats?
@@Rumkitty2000no I’m pretty sure it was lady Barbary Dustin.
@@MartianMothman OK. I couldn't recall. Thx
Another great vid as usual Amanda. Very interesting and compelling stuff about the maester's origins , especially in terms of likely servitude and the symbolism , quotes & evidence that backs that up.
The current time Citadel is in desperate need of reform. Certain guilds and point of views actually accepted and brought into the fold (especially more fringe ones); could have resulted in exponential technological advancement. The stagnation in that respect especially for so long , i do blame the Citadel quite a bit for, not entirely but quite a bit and seems very deliberate. Also, given the Hightower origins , connections and continued patronage from surely factors a bit into how they operate imo. The organization does seem in debt to , serves and seemingly act with the HT interest which i think backs up this vid quite a bit regarding origins. Given the HTs have such knowledge from vital historical to arcana and the Citadel aids in this monopolization. And the Citadel as one of HT's arms of influence seems to affect the organization & its operations. Eyes and ears into the Lords / Houses of the realm via the maesters (pretty much all the noble Houses and certainly all the major ones have maesters) and surely quite a bit of favorable advice being put into the ears of the Lords & Ladies of the realm for many generations. All of that to me plays into the premise & ideas in this vid , as the org does seem to serve the HTs or certainly act in their interest from its inception to the current narrative timeline. Which likely stems from the Citadel's origins.
George’s world is so fascinating! I love learning all these new things it’s so great. & awesome video! Will definitely be referring back to it as I think you’re onto something.
They could have also been a monastic order of sorts, at least from Uragon on. No marriage might echo our world's monastic orders and celibate priests that kept the wealth of those institutions in their "houses".
Very interesting, never thought about it.
amazing video!
Glad you think so!
They were the Andal slaves but the andles never called them that and treated it like semi religious doctrine like doran guard serve , obey and protect they deny them sex as a means to control them they isolate them and choose second and third sons who like guidance and treated like extra baggage and give them purpose they purpose of destroying magic sound incrediable to shape and control and entire land without anyone knowing. Its in sidious
“No, they’re not slaves. They just wear chains, and are sworn to servitude, and lose their family name…”
Hidden in plain sight. Excellent as always!
Bro on the nose
slaves arent given a choice. being a maester is a choice.
@@altmailacctother2348 is it really I mean most of those in it are their because they have no place as second or third born sons
@@wolfsbanealphas617 yes, it is still a choice...they could have gone to work as merchants, been a soldier, gone to the wall, etc etc...they might not have had a better choice, but they werent abducted from their home by force and told they will study to be a maester or be whipped/hanged/etc...
the fact that they have a choice is important...a choice is all mance rayder ever wanted....
You take the part about wearing chains and switch it to wearing all black and you got the nights watch too lol but I doubt they started out as slaves
With them being possible slaves in origin does make me see them being more hostile by default to Targaryens due to Valyrian slavery
Targeryens are explicitly anti-slavery in addition to their likely involvement in the Doom. Also, the Maesters are unlikely to remain motivated by their ancient status. The Maesters simply are anti-magic and anti-dragon. Magic undermines their worldview and their value as advisors. The dragons distort all political, diplomatic, and military relations, which again diminishes the power of the Citadel.
This was my first thought too.
However it was not Valaryians who put them in chains. It was First Men! .
@@sophiawilson8696 a) We don't know that. The citadel is older than properly recorded history. Oldtown is *ancient* and has unknown origins. Plus the legend says the knowledgeable slaves were brought over from all around, not necessarily just Westeros.
b) In any event the Valyrian Freehold was the biggest and most prolific trader and keeper of slaves that we know of, so regardless of who actually owned which knowledgeable slave when, as a whole any remnant of that empire would obv be met with a healthy dose of trepidation.
@@AlextheSuperflyValyrian didn’t sell slaves they only bought.
One of the ironies of this is that the Maesters forge their own collar, reinforcing their thralldom one link at a time. They are enslaving the selves just a little more with each link. And each link makes the their collar just a little heavier and bends them forward in submission and subservience. For the realm. Definitely for the realm...?😢
I remember the starks maester, subconsciously hid chain , appeared to have bothered him , like he would fidget with it , when his duty or a decision bothered him .
Great Video!
The whole " No marriage" is very weird too, bc, unlike the watch that got burned with the whole Night's Queen and King situation, they didn't have a reason to not permit marriage and kids. But if the whole thing began with the people there being slaves and thralls makes total sense.
It would also work if they had descended from a monastic order.
@@eric2500 Yup, but since it was a very very old order (no faith yet), and the fact that were from all over the known world, I don't think it's very likely.
Another great video!! This fits very well with other former slaves who used their skills to build power. Like the slaves of Valyria that founded Bravos, where the Iron Bank now holds considerable amount of power over the Kings of Westeros by loans. The faceless men, who's skills are feared and influence the world in such hidden schemes we cannot even know them all, and speculated to have even brought down their former masters through their role in the Doom. I personally also believe your theory that the Valyrians might have been former slaves of the Empire of the Dawn, they too used the skills given to them to serve their masters, to build an empire of their own. It fits very well into this theme that the Maesters might have started as slave teachers and healers, gathered in such numbers by the hightowers that it created a unique place for sharing knowledge. (Similar to how later Stannis gathers every learned person he can find to help Shireen). Out of opportunity the Citadel could have become a place to teach slaves, so they can better serve their masters. As knowledge is power, the dynamic reversed. In current day Westeros they still present like slaves, subservient to their Lord, providing a service, but it is suspected by characters in-world that actually *they* control and influence the Lords. shaping the world in secret, turning the master-slave relationship on its head. The idea they were former slaves makes it all the more juicy. It fits very well with the commentary on power in this series, more specifically hard vs soft power
Except in this case the Hightowers still control them. They seem to have more leeway than most slaves do, such as with Marwyn and Aemon, but sill. It's also interesting that the Citadel doesn't allow any kind of magic yet the current Hightower and his daughter both practice it.
@@ganykaliya7811 its hard to tell to which extent tho. the citadel and hightowers definitely still have a dependence and use of each other, how subservient or equal it is is hard to tell. i think the hightowers influence more than they directly control. the citadel certainly has its own internal hierarchy that syncs with the HT. it would be hard for the HT to strictly control all maesters just by the impossibility of executing force. more like
business partners imo
in my original comment i was exploring the maesters in their final posting, the household of a lord, and their wielding of soft power through information control. but yes the maesters as individuals are subservient to the structure and hierarchy of the citadel, where the HT definitely have influence. we should not underestimate the leverage the maesters have too tho, so the HT should not anger them either. its a tenuous symbiosis
its ultimately the maesters who profit from discouraging magic, as magic doesnt follow the same rules and logic as science. it is wild, freely accessible to those adept and can provide miraculous feats. mysticism is the antithesis to science, and it cannot be gatekept and wielded the same way, at least by them. their information monopoly would become less important. that the HT allegedly still practice it shows a degree of separation
@@Rosie-yt8nd That fits in with George rr martin's who's using whom type relationships all throughout ASOIAF.
that's why the maesters are anti-dragon and anti magic, if they did originate from valyria's slaves
Also Samwells dad chaines him to a wall for 3 days since he wants to be in chains so much, not talking about the maesters chain but slavery. Wow how you got 18k subs these are top tier vids
Thanks so much! Ill get there one day.. im learning how to make videos faster and i have a supportive family.. Liking and commenting really help get the vid out there in the algorithm so thank you so much for your comment🙏🙏🙏!!! Im pinning your comment so that everyone can see this. For anyone interested, another thing that really helps is sharing videos on social media like Twitter, FB groups,, fan forums and reddit, especially reddit. -CFD
@@TheDisputedLands very good job!!! 👍
Sam never wanted to be a Maester. He gers ill/doesn't like the sight of blood. His father has no idea that he's in Old Town. As far as his father is concerned, Sam no longer exists .
Just wanted you to know I love your videos. Your essay on the green king vs grey king imagery is one of my fave videos ever.
Keep up the good work!
Wow, thank you!
Of course, this begs the question as to whom they are bound in service to....The Citadel itself, "Learning" as an endeavor, or someone/something who still holds the leashes to their "collars"...? "Jarl" ---> "Yarl" (source: a Karl, or is it an Earl.... LOL! )
Fantastic video! I always love learning about the Maesters. Great minds think alike, I've also got a video about Oldtown coming out this week! Though rather than history, I'm focusing on its future in the Winds of Winter.
I'll check it out!
I made another oldtown euron
vid once... never published it th-cam.com/video/99YW285HYus/w-d-xo.html
All this shows is the hypocrisy of the andals my god talking shut about the dragon lords when their no better .
I always pictured the chains to be much smaller. The idea being that you can't take it off without breaking a link. Being forged of so many metals, each a small intricate link, can't be counterfeit or stolen without beheading a maester, even then it wouldn't fit. Also, it explains how Valyrian Steel links exist. With the gigantic chains on the show, Ice would have made like 6 links. Tiny links, tightly fit, binding and reminding you of your place as a Maester.
Another element that lends itself to "early maesters = thralls" is the name of the Hightower king who helped found the Citadel, Urrigon. The only other Urrigon we know of is a Greyjoy, and Urrigon sounds like a very Ironmannish name.
I like it - as in the ancient high prestige enslaved Greek tutors of highborn Roman kids.
I LOVE this take. This is excellent and put this way it seems almost inevitable. Dragons at the Hightower in the old times. Fused stone in Oldtown. Tastes like dragonlord to me, with the Maesters being what remains after a rebellion millennia ago. AWESOME.
Well look who we got here? nice to meet you here, her vids are really something special ^^
I am hoping in the Winds of Winter more of the Maester's agenda is revealed. I believe we will see more of Marwyn which shed some light.
There might be a connection between melisandre, the arm ring bracelet thing that bound mance rayder to her , making him her thrall, as well as a glamour. ( it seems)
I don't think they were slaves, but I do think they are like the Faceless Men. If you remember Cressen's chapter? When he was going to poison Melisandre, he was thinking about how bad his hands shake, but he thinks something like, "I can do it, I am a Maester of the Citadel after all"
.... Funny given the faceless an started out as slaves. The fact he can now act autonomously as a master is not an argument that the origins of the order was not slavery. Teachers, scribes... That often where slave jobs until you gave so much power to a slave.. They can easely play you and emancipate themselfs
that sentence rings diferently for me.... isn't it funny how society and technology has stagnated for more than 5000 years on Planetos? I've been thinking of the 'power behind the throne' angle of the secret grand maester council for a time. Who else would be able to sabotage the Targaryans so well? It's not like Aegon's and his wives' books on dragon raising and hatching just so happened to disappear by magic. Same for all of Queen Rhaella's miscarriages, Aerys II madness. Who can poison you better than the one who is supposed to know if you were poisoned ?:3
Great perspective in this video! I knew about paramours pets but never noticed all the clues George gave us about them being thralls.
Also do you think peremore had powers like bran with the sickly bedridden kid connectors?
I love when a Disputed Lands video pops up in my feed, because I know that I'm about to listen to a theory that I actually haven't heard before.
Thank you!!!
I love it when I get awesome comments like this!!!
Probably why Randall Tarly was so offended that Samwell would even consider being a maester.
Sam *never* wanted to be a Measter. He's only doing it because Jon told him to.
@@Rumkitty2000 You clearly didn't read the books. Samwell suggested becoming a maester years before he ever met Jon. Randyll forced him to wear chains as a punishment, since Sam was "so eager" to wear a chain. Only reason Sam was hesitant to take Jon's order was out of fear for his father.
@@gooby214 I did read the books and I distinctive recall Samwell's inner dialogue to himself as he left the Wall for Old Down. He was afraid , he got sick at the sight of blood, but reminded himself that he had to be brave for Jon. I'll go look for the passage and post it here.
@@Rumkitty2000 Yeah, but do you remember WHY he was afraid? There's a whole small flashback dialogue of how his father chained him and told him he would never become a "servant" (maester).
Entertaining a sickly royal nerd seems like a great way to get your project funded though...
This reminds me of how the Romans prized educated Greeks as slaves as they made excellent tutors for their sons.
In a feudal society, isn't everyone in service to their liege lord? ... and so everyone is a thrall to someone... except the High King or Empiror, right? I'm not sure why this makes it darker than we think. UNLESS, they are in service to one of the Gods - and I guess there are only 2 sides here... The Lion Lord of Night... and the Maiden Made of Light. Or as Melisandre says - there is Rh'lor and the unnamed great other. So... to which is the maesters in service? The greatest sin is kin-slaying, or at least that's emphasized over and over. The Green King and his brother the Gray King continue to battle it out through history? ... while the Gods show favor to the side that does the least kin slaying? I'm not really getting it. Supposedly, the Lion of night did something so horrible that the Maiden of Light turned her back to him... which is also supposed to be the reason for the "long night". It's not so easy to navigate through all this to find that golden thread.
The grey rats of citadel, no matter how they started, today seem to serve as Hightower's spies.
they should make accurate chains for Aegon's conquest film adaptations, and we can chuck it to fashion change over the centuries for the loose chains we have in GoT and HotD
I know it wasn't comfortable for the actors, but we get little maester action in Aegon's conquest. I think it can be done.
Nice! Makes sense when thinking of the slaves in Mereen not wanting to have to live without the protection and relative privilege of slaving for wealthy masters, that educated slaves would find a way to keep themselves in symbiosis with the rich and powerful, just like the clergy. In some sense, it’s the lonely wolf in winter reaction, isn’t it?
Exactly!!!!! I almost mentioned that in the video!
Love your vids Amanda, well presented I agree totally. 😊
Thanks so much! 😊
They have always reminded me of Catholic monks
I’ve been thinking about this for a while, the learned men of Mereen wanting to sell themselves into slavery had led me there.
Exactly! the clues are well hidden, but once you see it, you can't unsee it.
learned man always needed rich patreons to fund their work and living expenses. I imagine that even today many researchers would happy to hear about someone opening up a university or searching for private teachers. So i doubt that they had better things to do, they might actually have searched for such apployment their whole lifes
A theory occurred to me recently that *maybe* maesters were slaves and incited the Andals, one of the most anti-slave people out there, to invade Westeros. And even if they did not low-key invite them they still could have used the opportunity once the invasion begun and started secretly assisting them and eventually talking the First Men lords into marrying with the Andals and accepting the Faith of the Seven.
And here I come and find all the confirmation of their slave origins that I need😁
I support this. Perhaps the first conspiracy of the maesters was to eliminate the religion of the ancient gods and their human sacrifices.
Hey, I really like your channel and I just wanted to say thank you for all your hard work and these amazing videos❤
Glad you like them!
This blew my mind. Some of the lords distrust the Maesters and (rightfully I suppose) believe they're scheming in Oldtown but if we consider them to be a kind of slave, can we blame them for wanting to knock down the power of especially the Targaryens who could burn the entire continent if they cared to?
Yaaaaaaaaay a new one! I’ve been patiently waiting on this so defua nice lil surprise notification:) made my night! I need morrrre soon!
On it!!!
It does not surprise me the grey rats may have begun as slaves. They behave like ones, all smiles and willingness to serve, while they undermine the very lords they claim o serve.
Peremore was a greenseer
I'm a big believer in the Andals are liars theory. Now of their history seems even plausable
Every time I turn to walk away you put out another video. You've been sneaky lately and I gotta keep an eye on you😉. Keep it up! Very few,hardly any do it better👍
Will do!!
Your videos are always so interesting and informative! Currently going through your back log and lovvvve it 🎉❤
Glad you are enjoying them!
And here I thought the chains were away to show the burden of their knowledge
I just found your channel yesterday. Subscribed after viewing this video. Brava to you for the interesting, well-researched & articulated topics.
Welcome to the Disputed Lands!
Whaaaaaaaaat? you back? Yeeeezzzzzsiiiiir!
I love you
Amazing work!
Thank you! Cheers!
Hope that was apparent with the vow of celibacy and compulsory chains of office
It definitely was for me and glad you think so too😀. Thanks for watching!
Awesome Video! I wonder if the diferent links used to symbolize where they were from also.
Could be
Amazing! It's one of those theories that you never thought of in all those years yet it's completely obvious once you notice it.
I wish that I could like your videos twice!
Thank you!!
Thanks Amanda
Parallel or partnership between faceless men and the maesters perhaps?
Good question. Parallel. If the was a partnership they probably wouldnt have had to kill of pate to get their hands on that key.
Yes! Well argued!
The more I learn about the maesters, the more I understand why King Maegor didn't take any shit off of them.
Great video, as alweys
TDL spot on again!
Good stuff, excellent analysis.
Glad you enjoyed it!
This theory makes a lot of sense. It is also interesting in the light of the Grabd Maester conspiracy and the connections to the Hightowers.
love seeing one of your videos pop up! great job! makes a lot of sense when you lay it out like that.
Thank you so much🤗
Hi the Disputed land we missed you my lady
Missed you guys too!
great work,
Thanks a lot!
666th like 😈
👍
NOICE
Would you like to discuss philosophy or work in the mines? Lol
Good points
Thank you!
Excellent, paced presentation skills in high quality, noise-free audio. With a such a clear delivery, I found I was able to truly concentrate on what was being said. Thus, deeper learning and greater enrichment. Thank you for your attention to detail.
Very interesting
Thanks!!!!!🤗
Kind of like Posca, the greek slave in the tv show Rome, being an advisor to Julius Caesar. Especially with the ancient history of Oldtown, the seafaring and port culture found there, the hinting at a possible past relationship between westeros and the far east of essos, this area would've brought many a traveler far and wide. Travelers that likely traded in thralls, slaves, other gains and possessions, information, etc.
What an awesome video!!! Love it, and it makes perfect sense!!!
I suppose I only have myself to blame for not posting this same theory before anyone else, but long ago it occurred to me that in former colonial countries sometimes people can be very enamoured with the trappings of their former masters, and I started to wonder about the Maesters chains. It also seems to me that scattered throughout the text are clues that humanity was a slave race to non-human, or demi-human masters.
I believe one of those masters was "The Storm God". One of the descriptions of the SG says: "he lives in a cloudy hall and ravens are his creatures." Another description, however, says that: "he lives in a tower as tall as the clouds."
There's only one tower that high in Westeros, The Hightower, and at the base from which it is built lies the Black Stone Fortress, whose construction is said to bear marks of the foundations of an earlier great tower. Also as we all know there is the Ravenry at the Citadel.
At this point I should mention the Ironborn, who have a long standing hatred towards Oldtown, a hatred which is reciprocated. The Ironborn have legends about non-human inhabitants on the Iron Islands, and even some that suggest they are descended from non-humans.
As we all know the Storm God, and the Drowned God are sworn enemies, and it's my belief that they were non-human rulers of human thralls, and when the rulers passed away the thralls took on their trappings, and their causes.
+1 Comment!
Love it
Thank you so much!!!!!!!
Brilliant!
Thank you!!!😀
Whoa
😁
Great video!
Thanks!
Awesome video.
Glad you enjoyed it
Love this video !
Glad you liked it!!