I kinda find it funny in AC3, you're hired to wipe out a group of workers going on strike, stopping construction of a bridge. They just wanted better pay and the corp just hired you to go in and blasted them to high hell. Some missions later, you're hired by another corp to blow up a bridge, if you paying attention, it's the very bridge you helped built. Just to add in the insult, you're getting bonus for gunning down the trains full of civilians going through that bridge. Now tell me, are we the good guy?
In AC1 there's a mission to breach a lab and release a bunch of weaponised organisms to bring down the lab. Immediately after this, the owner of the lab gives you a mission to exterminate the organisms because someone has released them all.
on the flip side those protesters ask you to gun-down whole building and facilities of people as well as attack other city areas, there are no good people in ac at least no one who live very long,.
In all Armored Core games, you're a mercenary. You get to pilot a giant walking/flying machine of death. You get paid by corporations to blow shit up. Nothing else matters. Unless you're trying to get your revenge on Nine-Ball. Screw that guy, lol.
To quote the game itself: "Let's see how far they can fly... On Borrowed Wings." Those words resonate with us as the Merc - the one who is Raven. Our name carries weight, we decide what to do with it.
For AC newcomers you can really think about it like this. The "good" ending to Armored Core 4 Answer is siding with Wynne D and saving 100 million lives... And dooming the planet to be polluted to extinction by the proliferation of Kojima Particles throughout the entire atmosphere. The "bad" ending is grounding the cradles, forcing tens of millions to the polluted surface to die so that a path to space can be opened to escape the failing ecosystem. Or you can get a new best friend, an opera performance, and 100 million dollars for blasting them out of the sky and opening the path to space early.
@@absurd.gaming Yeah "saving" should be taken with a grain of salt since it's really more like a temporary solution. Thermidor will straight up tell you in the Orca story that the Cradles are going to kill the people up there too with the pollution if they're not stopped somehow. Though I wonder if he'd join you and Old King against Serene Haze if he didn't escape the planet/die.
@@absurd.gaming Agreed. I would term it more saving the species, because a _lot_ of people are going to suffer and die. It's just, unlike siding with Wynne D, there is hope for humanity to survive it.
I love how this series is basically "everyone is clearly selfish go get money, and theres probably some person whos gone so far as to hate humanity for this greed and is now trying to kill everyone, stop him."
Totally Black things and people show up. Fortunately, you can get paid to take care of them. Does that make up for all the bad you've done? Doesn't really matter to the Raven, they have another mission to consider and parts to buy or bills to pay.
I never gave a moment's thought to the morality of any mission I took in any of the Armored Core games. It was a job. There was money. That was it. Didn't care if they were striking workers, terrorists, or corporate soldiers. And if blowing up a train netted me bonus money, I did it without a second thought. This was never a series about morality. It's about survival and being swept up by events bigger than you and out of your control.
I think the series is about morality, but not overtly. It does train you to approach it with the mentality you mention here, but it also tempts you to ask "why" with some of the dialogue.
@@absurd.gaming You're right about being tempted to ask "why?" But, for me it was never a question rooted in morality, but curiosity. What's the reason behind the job? What's the long-term plan potentially at play? The intrigue behind the scenes is what always drew me in. Perhaps AC6 will make me think about the morality of the jobs I take. I suppose we'll all find out on the 25th.
In Armored Core games, the player character is never a good guy or a bad guy, he's just a guy. It's kill or be killed in the life of an AC pilot, and he's really good at killing.
A fun point to your "Only the corporations can afford your AC." In the older AC games, contracts from 'rebel groups' show up sometimes, but that doesn't contradict your point. Because they are ultimately being funded by one corporation or another to strike at their rival corporations, so ultimately the money is still coming from the corporations. 6 might be an exception, because the RLF has access to the valuable resource of Coral to fund themselves. Yet the RLF might ultimately have been started by one corporation or another as a cats paw, and simply grown beyond the corporations control thanks to funding themselves with Coral sales. Counter point to your statement of "There is no black and white." Black and White do exist, rare though they are, and one can make a reasonable judgement call of if something is blacker or whiter in nature. If someone is more or less terrible than someone else. If one choice or the other is more evil or good. To not bother to even try and make these discernments and thus abandon all morality is one of the dangers of the real world. The old lesson "Evil triumphs when Good men do nothing." comes to mind here. All that being said, you are making a valid point with your video that is worthy of notice. Ravens are not knights, samurai, adventurers or heroes. Ravens are Mercenaries. The same Raven that slaughters striking workers for a corporation, may go on to prevent the devastation of the world by an orbital cannon. The same Raven may fight to defend the last outpost of opposition to corporate rule, or destroy it's defender. The same Raven that triggers the devastation of the world, may also prevent human extinction by the Internecine. In a funny way, Armored Core shows that only by having power can one easily (or even at all) make the 'moral' choices. Be that the credits to take/reject contracts based on morality, or having the strength to break free of AI rule. At least, that is my Answer.
There are varying shades of grey, but pure black and white choices on the scale we are talking about are the exception rather than the rule. The fun of these games to me is trying to determine the relative greyscale of each option.
binged AC6 for a few hours today, RLF gets their MT mechs from the BAWS corporation (the only corp that sells to them), so you hit the nail on the head that even when the rebels pay you they're getting backed by a corp. i also wanna address your last point. i heard a quote somewhere, "violence is the power from which all other authority is derived." in other words, if you can't back up your view with fighting strength you'll be trampled over by everyone else that can, aka the rule of beasts/law of the jungle. kinda funny how even in "civilized" society everything boils down to who can swing their club the hardest.
To quote Ash Williams from Army of Darkness: "Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun." Also, adding this, if there's one thing Ravens from Armored Core and Mercenaries from BattleTech have in common, it's that no matter what their morals are, what actions they take, they are all motivated by something so pure that it can't be considered good or evil. Cold, hard cash. I don't care about who's in the right or wrong. I'm just here for those precious C-Bills/Credits and the occasional chunk of salvage.
Man, literally growing up playing games like the Armored Core franchise really helped to expose me to concepts and ideals i wouldn't of ever been exposed to otherwise.. I'm introspective, so, a lot of it really broadened my sense of self understanding and the like. Basically, grew my brain. Lol These games are truly amazing, and a work of art that I hope never fades.
The conflict between RBL(rubicon liberation front) and the corporations heavily reminds me of the conflict between Navis and Mirage in AC:nexus. The Navis found a new resource in a certain area which brought huge developments for technology, however they refused any corporation from entering the space or mining any of this resource in an effort to retain a monopoly over the new substance. Navis was a very small corporation when compared to Mirage, the biggest corporation. I won’t spoil much in case u want to play nexus(if u haven’t played it), but I think the later story beats of the game could mirror with how AC6s story will turn out. Despite being the underdogs and protecting their “land”, the Navis use questionable tactics and them holding back the land from any other corporation could be argued to be holding back humanities progress, Mirage is an oppressive mega force vying for world domination. Neither of the corporations are the “good guys”, and I think like the other “underdogs and opposition groups”, RBL will have something sketchy going on behind the scenes(maybe manipulated by an AI).
That sounds about right for an Armored Core game. From could shake things up a bit, but I fully expect there to be some skeletons in the closet of every faction.
It seems likely from dialogue there's going to be a cult-ish element to them. It's possible that when they get to the point where there's truly no winning with the corporations slowly finishing them off. They'll likely then try to annihilate the whole planet.
I really hope it doesn't end like Nexus did. It's an effective ending, but I really don't think it will land well with most people. Then again, Nexus had only one ending, having the first playthrough end as Nexus did, and then new game plus let you prevent that, could be effective.
@@mechanizedMytha Did you just imply that anyone who is opposed to communism is a fascist? Tells me all I need to know how you "people" operate, eerily similar to a German faction in 1939.
I love armored core because it's how I feel about life and so I feel the most myself as a raven. Even as an independent worker in real life, I'm contracted by corporations a lot of the time, and a lot of the time it's to make them look good. "But you gotta pay the bills somehow." In the game at least the anger and frustration I feel can be released as I'm just another cog in the machine. I commented on that post and I thought it'd be a good prompt for a video I'm glad you made it.
Love watching ppl who have zero clue about Armored Core trying to disect it and talk about what they think while the rest of us just smirk in the background
Strayed is interesting. I read in an article/interview somewhere that all ACFA endings are canon, which implies that the end result of all endings is the same regardless of Strayed's choice.
The devs have stated that certain actions and choices will have repercussions on what direction the story takes. I'm sure within those choices will be the option to bave both good and evil playthroughs but like you said there will likely be many grey areas on how our actions are perceived. I enjoy games that give you realistic choices and outcomes, for me it aids to inmersion greatly. Excellent vid, not long to go now!
Besides FA and VD, where the canonical endings are either being a genocidal monster or giving humanity one last shot to survive a horde of murder drones.
I love the morality in Armored Core. It's always been so much more realistic than in other games with "moral choices". I actually had a thought about this semi-recently. I'd love to see a game where making noble or selfless choices end up making the game much harder in at least the short-term. Because that's how it works in real life. Being selfless is a lot more challenging than being selfish. Imagine an Armored Core where your options were fat, easy paychecks for a big corporation or rewards so small that they barely covered your expenses but would benefit a greater amount of people. Your first few playthroughs would effectively force you down a path of financial selfishness. But as you gained more skills and knowledge about the game, you could afford to take the harder, but more noble missions on subsequent playthroughs. But for every fat paycheck you pass up, another mercenary - your competition - is picking that up and is able to upgrade their own mech more.
I feel like souls players would know, that in most of From’s game’s you dont play as a “hero” but as a “cog” in the mechanic of that world like the end of all these games it’s never anything “good”
I do think there might be a counterintuitive flair to how blunt the opposition to polarized thinking is in these games, I also think that From really means to drive that point across, and they'll do it with different tools in their different games. This is an interesting bit of text from the Order Healing incantation's description (Elden Ring): "How easy it is for learning and learnedness to be reduced to the ravings of fanatics; all the good and the great wanted, in their foolishness, was an absolute evil to contend with. Does such a notion exist in the fundamentals of Order?" It is rather curious to see a person, before the game even releases, already conflicted with the possibility that they're not clearly being told, with high resolution moralistic specificity, who it is they should be killing. The undercurrent thought doesn't seem to occur to them at all: my friend, you shouldn't be killing anyone in any circumstance, but now that you are, does it really matter what they believe before you murder them? This is most certainly a wrenching sentiment, which I think contrasts aesthetically with another sentiment of some AC vets with regards to their own idea of what piloting an AC is, a sort of "I fight (I win)", or even more dehumanizing, a sort of "I am become (an) AC", funny as that my sound. The pilot's sole resource for transcending their own morality is by accelerated abandonment of it. Though FA is (currently) the pinnacle of this field of grey, a simpler frame is found in J's climatic deliverance in VD "To live as I please, and die a senseless death." Deliverance in these circumstances innately skirts death, which I think is yet another bit of evidence of what sort of world is being pictured in these games. The AC pilot always arrives _in media res_ by narrative demand, by default, by natural decree, by necessity. Just like we are all individually born in a world already "half way" into happening. Despite the themes, the weight, the sense of dread, the post-apocalyptic horizon - I think they are an allegory for the natural world. Mechanized _geworfenheit_ . I unironically suspect the OP might love AC6 if they just dive in, discomfort and all. The discomfort isn't going anywhere so... one might as well. Thanks for another great topic. They always seem to cause an immediate reflective state for me. I appreciate that.
Thanks again for another thoughtful comment. That ER quote is so good. Questions like that are difficult, and always lead to more questions. It's uncomfortable to not get an answer, and so it is easier to not ask the question in the first place. ACFA is so cool because the game answers for you on the first playthrough, but then forces you to deal with the question if you keep playing.
Armored Core For Answer has some of my favorite dystopian dilemmas in its endings the first being where you’re forced to choose by the end to save the last livable areas for humanity left but at the cost of preserving the status quo of an unequal society who’s ruling class quite literally looks down upon the people the systems that support their rule have rendered meaningless with little to no thought towards them dying in constant war from the only livable cities in the sky. And because you’re still preserving the status quo to save these people you’re still resigning society to a slow death march into oblivion given saving those people doesn’t change the fact that corporations will still war endlessly eventually creating an inhabitable planet with no escape given the mutually assured destruction like deadlock the orbital cannons in the setting provide preventing any corporation from reaching space to further colonize. Then there’s the ending where you destroy the orbital cannons in the hopes of freeing humanity into the stars giving them a chance to colonize and possibly find new livable areas among the stars but like the previous ending nothing about the status quo is fundamentally challenged so opening the way for corporations to colonize into space will still see the divisions in society as normal and most likely lead to a change of scenery for the people on the ground at most still maintaining a society that views the deaths of so many people as a justifiable cost of doing business ironically in a time where each life should be valued in the name humanity’s preservation in the face of oblivion. Makes the third ending almost seem justified despite becoming a mass murderer in that one given at least then you can bring the ruling class back down to the earth they’ve helped destroy and force them to face the reality normal people in this setting do and choose to either cut their dependency on the radiation causing energy source whose use in the never ending wars made the earth inhabitable or the more likely option where they choose to continue fighting and make that slow march towards annihilation an all but certain sprint towards it. All it takes is becoming a mass murderer to do so when bringing down the floating cities but at least then you’ve forced the ones most responsible for creating the world to live and die in the world they’ve created resigning humanity to the destruction the setting has been going towards up to that point but making death the grand equalizer breaking free from the divisions of class so that those in ruling positions of this society that helped lead it to its annihilation won’t be able to use the lowest rungs of that society who fight and die as their shield from the consequences of their rule. All pretty bleak endings that to me show an oppressive endurance these systems of destruction have when preying off the self interest of its people for the preservation of its structure at any and all cost.
I wholeheartedly believe that in reality both ambiguity and evil do exist. There are good, decent, and evil people. Of course not everyone is born that way, but whether it be through free will or an environment those people do develope. I think it’s why I appreciate stories like this such as Princess Mononoke, while also appreciating stuff such as sound of freedom. Edit: I wholeheartedly also believe that in reality morality is not ambiguous because morality is tied to reality itself. An example being the fact that war is bad inspite of it being needed at times it still doesn’t stop the fact that it’s still bad but it provided nuance in the sense that in order for a war to end or a highly corrupt system to be changed, sacrifices will have to be made big or small. But that doesn’t make it a good thing, it makes it the right path. I think saying that morality is subjective is false, and it’s no different than saying that truth is subjective.
@@absurd.gamingThat’s my point. For example in a story I’m developing while there are clearly good and evil forces and people, there are also people that are in between. So the main character is faced with the duality of where people stand and so he reflects on what he’s fighting for and whether or not it’s truely good and for the benefit of the world. But there are also people seperate from the main antagonists that are downright wicked and deserve nothing good.
Morality is just as subjective as any other preference. We all judge the morality of things based on our principles, but our principles are themselves subjective.
Any paramilitary organization that calls their army "Liberation Front" or similar names like "Red Guard" are usually never an army fighting for Liberty or a better society. They''re told they are, given a vision of an utopia, and this can be seen in many historical or modern day real groups, they almost always are the paramilitaries of dictators, think Fidel Castro, or Che Guevara, so that may be the case here. i'm new to Armored Core as it's been a long time since I last played one, early PS2 era as a kid, so it was one of the ones around that time, I love this kind of concept. Where you're just a soldier, a mercenary caught up in the middle of corporate warfare. "“War has changed. It's no longer about nations, ideologies, or ethnicity. It's an endless series of proxy battles, fought by mercenaries and machines. War--and it's consumption of life--has become a well-oiled machine. War has changed. ID-tagged soldiers carry ID-tagged weapons, use ID-tagged gear. Nanomachines inside their bodies enhance and regulate their abilities. Genetic control, information control, emotion control, battlefield control…everything is monitored and kept under control. War…has changed. The age of deterrence has become the age of control, all in the name of averting catastrophe from weapons of mass destruction, and he who controls the battlefield, controls history. War…has changed. When the battlefield is under total control, war becomes routine.” ― David Hayter as Solid Snake AC VI sounds great in this regard.
Armored core and Battletech; morally ambiguous mercenary life and giant robots. Hell yes. Everyone mentioning cyberpunk as a theme, you owe it to yourselves to explore battetech lore. Less corpo and more neo-feudalism, but you're still a merc who gets paid to stomp on orphanages in a multi-ton bipedal death machine.
I'm personall looking forward to rping someone trying to ignore their emotions just so they can get their life back. AC has always been at best you or them.
Saaame. It's gonna be so interesting. I feel like people like ourselves will experience AC6 as a much more intense narrative experience. Feel the pain of each kill, feel the guilt of each payout. Every credit earned, another life sacrificed.
Been catching up on the armoured core franchise(Newbie to franchise) and honestly it's kinda refreshing to be playing a morally grey character..... infact I'd say you normally play a morally irresponsible character. You don't necessarily care about any cause and can base your descisions on simply which missions give the most money over any actual favour to a faction. Or you could be choosing simply by what extends the war further. As war is your business.(Even though I believe there's no 'extended' campaign based off descisions I think, just an interesting idea to base your descisions on) In a past game you accept a job from a corp where you stop striking workers, just to later accept a job from another corp to destroy the bridge you essentially forced the strikers to build. And other games you are made to act as a terrorist. Your character works to fund themselves and theoretically no job is bad enough unless it directly hinders the player(like possibly being suicidal or something, and Handler Walter seems to not really care about your life too much so I suspect his route where you may not betray him has you take on ever increasingly dangerous missions) Point is that choosing missions is your choice, for whatever reason you can think of. But I also find it interesting that no matter what choice you make, you will never fully join a cause/corp. Imagine the route where you choose to work with the liberation front. But you don't just join them and they supply you, removing the need for money and self funding yourself. Which means you are not 100% with them. if things go wrong you can still bail at any time. If that makes sense, but what I mean is you are not beholden to anyone and the world even seems to realize this too. The corps genuinely understand your loyalty is fickle and will hire you right after you hurt them at times(until you eventually show too much favour for a faction I assume) It makes for an interesting world where your character theoretically just doesn't ask questions and simply works for paying their own bills. And by the end could kinda just stumble into be a central figure of a war and becoming the best raven/mercenary out there. Instead of choosing a side and finding some moral good. I wouldn't be surprised if the liberation front is shown to be good guys, but then you start working with them and realize they are just as bad as the corps, or worse. Maybe even the ending will imply the liberation front winning just makes the planet isolated and have a lack of resources which ultimatly causes a civil war in the future or something. Perhaps a subtle message will even be that regardless if you are under the control of handler Walter, or free making your own descisions(Later in the game I assume) you will begin to realize that no path is solely good. Your job is to do the worst things the companies don't want to be affiliated with, or are high risk. Despite the idea of 'freedom' that the ravens/mercenaries have, you are still a slave to a paycheck. You just get to choose which brand of horrible you get it from.
There are only villains and survivors in AC. Sometimes, you are presented with taking a moral choice here and there, but oftentimes, the morality of the characters is grey. It is a game about a dystopian world full of giant mechs and tyrannical corporations, after all.
Great video. My biggest problem with morality in games is, as you said, it’s usually just black or white. It’s really hard to make a character and try to play as them like how a real person would act. No one is pure good or pure evil, but most games do clearly want you to choose only one side, the other or handicap yourself. Takes me right out
Exactly. Games like that often force you to be a caricature. Either lawfully-stupid a comically evil. It can be fun, but it doesn't approach morality with any degree of sincerity. It kind of works in Fallout because the whole franchise is satire, but in KOTOR, it's offputting. I'm glad that KOTOR2 made changes in its approach to good vs evil. It's a much better game, but still not perfect in this respect.
That's why the only fallout game I like is new vegas. The game is the opposite of black and white. It's deciding the future of the mojave wasteland in a very complicated political situation where everyone has a decent argument and reason for living. Except the legion, they lost all credibility for me when they dressed up like pedos, but every other faction has good reasons for existing, or not existing.
What i really love about armored core is how we aren't just "the hero" or "the villain". We're a true neutral, a wild card. It's realistic. Shades of gray instead of black and white, which is really interesting.
This is why adore Fromsoftware's works, 90% of people in their games fight and slaughter each other for the sake of their own survival. Even if your intentions are good you're likely going to have to accomplish them through dubious means.
It's funny. You probably couldn't really do the jolly co-op that is so integral to the Souls games. Because that's all about helping others. That would be contrary to the theme fromsoft wants to explore here in ACVI.
I could see how that could work within theme. Make a set of co-op missions, have some random elements in them... including a chance that another Raven or two shows up to oppose you... and the chance that the contract of your partner includes _your_ death or vice versa. Go full on player freedom and let your co-op buddy from the mission decide to do nothing and let their 'reinforcements' die to you, or flip sides and help you. Leave it up to Ravens to decide if their fellow bird is trustworthy or not. The randomness to it would be to keep it secondary and a possibility rather than a certainty. Let players make the call in situ if they're going to take that bonus contract to take out their 'mission partner', maybe without ever telling the other player they had the option. I think that would work with the setup and theme of an AC game.
Honestly, Fires of Raven ending, Rusty is totally the protag. Even gets a "I'm not done yet" moment when you kill him. For Rubiconians, you are the villain. But then again, Rubiconians are sentient, hive mind parasites capable of gaining control over high class weaponized machinery. So you stopped a brethren moon scenario by nuking then
That could be interesting, could say have a pretty difficult defense mission if you side with them against the corporations and maybe if you lose it ends normally but if you win the corporations leave Rubicon alone but it could have a being a wall against evil that'll eventually break scenario.
The true "villain" of Armored Core as an overall concept and series is the system society exists under. And the fact that there's almost never anything you can meaningfully do about it is exactly the point. Faceless corporate entities give you your work, and you either do it, or you starve. It's easy to fight a bad guy, a villain with a face and clear motivations and plans. A system, though? How do you fight the way society works? Especially when there isn't one entity at the heart of it (which there kind of was in the very first game, but even then, you didn't REALLY solve the world's problems there) but everyone is complicit in its perpetuation, either deliberately or because that's the only way they can survive. And those who try to band together to fight it? They're bugs to be squashed by the larger entities that are the largest beneficiaries of the system, who also happen to be the ones who can afford the player's services.
"Tyranny" is one of those legit RPG that focus on villainous bleak & gray often dark elements. You don't have karma, only supremacy. Very underrated CRPG imo. Tbh, most of recent Fromsoft games are rather ambiguous on which are really the good side & bad sides. Sekiro is arguably the only true hero of justice story & it did have massive consequences between being good or bad.
I don't want a story that's basic in its approach. I don't want a story that gives me a bright visage of a calm and cozy escape. I think I prefer a story that reflects the bleakness of the reality that I live in
If you like the type of lore armored core is, y'all should check out Warhammer and it's lore. It has the same effect as "there are no good guys" aspect
In Armored Core. You are a Mercenary. Good? Bad? Who cares You want to fight and you want money. What I find one of the many things I find interesting is the Protagonists. They are so skilled that not only can they change the world but also Corporations and other Mercenaries want to kill them. In a way Last Raven and V/Verdict Day acknowledges this with the Terms “Dominant” and “Dark Raven” what Human + Pilots, AI Controlled ACs Superweapons lack is Natural Talent and the ability to adapt. I think this is why the Protagonists are so skilled in a Universe and Meta Scene as well. When you first start an Armored Core game you have trouble with the controls and you start out with Average AC parts that will help you in a few missions but later on as you Improve not only your AC but your Piloting skills as well.
There're plenty of mysteries on Rubicon to discover What is the origin of Coral? Why does the RLF praise Coral with an almost Religious fervor? What are Walter's motivations? Why is 621 stuck being a Hound? For now, those will remain questions, but I'm sure the answers will be found on Rubicon 3 Abide with Rubicon
In this game's specific context its kinda like the Rda vs the navi on a far larger industrial scale but even then with the state of the world with how far the metal streches along the landscape like a parasite we're very much playing on the opposing side from the poor folks of Rubicon which are barely holding on to thier husk of a home
This observation about morality in armored core for my point of view is pretty subjetive, the raven protagonist can do pretty awful things like ill civilians, destroy urban etc but at the same time you can do rescue missions, defends civilian areas etc, the gray point here are the corporation who rules any of the entities do horrible thing justifying their action in the name of "progress" or "greater good" for humanity, remember murakumo millenium employing ravens for the project of human+, crest and mirage manipulating the truth about the controller malfunctioning or all the plot of the satellite in silent line and etc, you are just a mercenary in this world at the end of the day you have the decision to take any mission which alight with your morality or your sense of right and wrong, heck even many ravens are pretty kind or honorable like noblesse obliege, ace, moebius, valkyrie, apple boy etc
You did an excellent work video, some people are judging ur video without watching on Twitter (it's not a surprise) , but you did an excellent covering about the moralities of AC universe. If It's your interest, I would like you to to do a video going a bit deeper on each faction , what they are, what they do, what's their goal .
It's a common theme in Armored Core for sure, although whether or not you're heroic is sometimes left more up to the player in some cases. Generally though it definitely plays with the concept a lot of the grittier, more "realistic" styled mecha series' like some of the Gundam series' or Votoms, where the protagonist...despite being the audience's main perspective, is but one soldier or individual in a complicated situation much bigger than them, and whether they're a "hero" or a "villain" or, if either of those terms even apply is fully a matter of perspective. Even in some cases where the protagonist is generally heroic and means well, the full validity or the true value of their actions or input in the larger perspective is sometimes put under a microscope too. As if to say sometimes what it really comes down to is that all one can do is do their best.
@@absurd.gaming Either way I'm keen to leave him behind as soon as possible and join up with that other handler's people. To me, anywhere is better than being kept on a leash...
This is how I approached Verdict day. I didn't pvp with a team or concerned my self with what factions was capturing or captured lands. All I cared about was how much I got , how well I preformed and did I help that team win . That was only to propell myself to be hired more for more money and able to keep upgrading my gundam...errrr my AC. Most of the time I was solo and didn't talk..I just let my performance speak for itself. Being a solo merc in verdict was fun for me. Plus it was fun to use a ac that I custom to look exactly like a gundam . My patch said Velox Mortis , I was either going to kill fast or die fast and move on to learn from mistakes
Thats kind of the charm of it. Sometimes I dont want to be the hero, sometimes I just want enough justification to do something because to me-the player-its FUN. Being in the gray morally allows you to explore alot more to the moral compass than games often allow you to afford, no one is good, no one is evil, theres just different shades of both.
Hey Ab, how are you doing man? Another excellent video, such a good discussion. When I saw the first mission i was like "F**, are we already in the grey zone?" I felt bad for the locals of Rubicon, we start already killing some of them, and stealing another's identity. I'm really curious how the story will unfold. I have a feeling that Walter is in some sort of redemption journey (despite questionable speeches in the start), and we ended up in this turmoil dragged by him. Anyway, as i'm obsessed with Walter, I feel more than ready to help my man in his journey. Abide with Rubicon!
I'm sure FromSoft will take the Dark Souls approach, where the player's decision will not matter because it won't stop the inevitable. Such an ending will keep debates existing months after the game's release. I live for open discussions and new discoveries of perspectives. ^_^
@@absurd.gaming True, but unfortunately, the souls series was their breakout IP that appealed to the masses which just helped prove they got it right with that direction used in AC4A. ^_^
setting seems a lot more shades of gray than i thought. Its stated that you can side with diferent faction more securely in armored core 6, but i have afeeling even the rebels are gonna be pretty gray. They fight and act in a very... religious furver.
I honestly feel like a mercenary in this game. I wonder with All the destruction I cause during missions , what are the consequences for the the actions and missions
We are ravens and lynx. We dont get paid to feel, or consider another. The only ones we can think about in our choices, is our ACs. We do whats best for our survival. Even if it means betraying who we are just to breath another day
I wouldn't say I'm bad guy, I'm beast hunting on frozen fields of a planet that's falling to chaos. I have no illusion of one side being good or bad. Nor do I care. I'm just looking for my next hunt. I have my morality that I won't break, but so long as it doesn't challenge that, the next fight is all that matters.
I mean, there are definite villains in the corporate executives and leaders who actually have the power to make the world a better place but consistently choose not to for the sake of their own fathomless avarice, and there are definitely victims like our own character for example, who as far as we can tell is basically enslaved by Walter. It's not clear that we could even choose death over obedience. The idea that it's all just "human nature" is disproven by the very existence of the points such a statement is meant to debunk. So anyway, whoa cool robot!
the graphical difference between gameplay and cinematics made me totally forgot about morality in the earlier AC series. I only enjoyed listening to futuristic bgm while tweaking my AC. The Cinematics vs gameplay difference made me shooting at gameplay pixels with no guilt whatsoever. Also a 1vs 1 cheating AI duel made me winning that duel totally justified. And the icing on the cake, I did this all with the broken controller settings they default presented for me in that AC! I am more than justified to WIN against all these sh!tting odds against me! They should pity me then the others that against all Shitting odds I am the survivor in that Coffin, they called an Armored Core! Now thats is morality.
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Yea no shit Sherlock you’re a Merc mech bruh a private military contractor nothing good came out of it
basically you do bad things for good intentions which just leads to a lot of tragedy regardless of what you do.
I kinda find it funny in AC3, you're hired to wipe out a group of workers going on strike, stopping construction of a bridge. They just wanted better pay and the corp just hired you to go in and blasted them to high hell. Some missions later, you're hired by another corp to blow up a bridge, if you paying attention, it's the very bridge you helped built. Just to add in the insult, you're getting bonus for gunning down the trains full of civilians going through that bridge. Now tell me, are we the good guy?
they were all terrorists ofc! maybe, idk, i didn't pay attention, i was busy shooting
In AC1 there's a mission to breach a lab and release a bunch of weaponised organisms to bring down the lab.
Immediately after this, the owner of the lab gives you a mission to exterminate the organisms because someone has released them all.
@@RafeMcCawley393You are indeed a Raven.
@@RafeMcCawley393 Union forces are considered terrorist group.
on the flip side those protesters ask you to gun-down whole building and facilities of people as well as attack other city areas, there are no good people in ac at least no one who live very long,.
In all Armored Core games, you're a mercenary.
You get to pilot a giant walking/flying machine of death.
You get paid by corporations to blow shit up.
Nothing else matters.
Unless you're trying to get your revenge on Nine-Ball. Screw that guy, lol.
You fucking wut m8
Truly a Raven
Fuck nine ball. . More like none ball
“You cannot hope to defeat Stinger.”
To quote the game itself: "Let's see how far they can fly... On Borrowed Wings." Those words resonate with us as the Merc - the one who is Raven. Our name carries weight, we decide what to do with it.
"I'm no hero, just an old killer, hired to do some wet work."
- Solid Snake, MGS4
For AC newcomers you can really think about it like this. The "good" ending to Armored Core 4 Answer is siding with Wynne D and saving 100 million lives... And dooming the planet to be polluted to extinction by the proliferation of Kojima Particles throughout the entire atmosphere. The "bad" ending is grounding the cradles, forcing tens of millions to the polluted surface to die so that a path to space can be opened to escape the failing ecosystem. Or you can get a new best friend, an opera performance, and 100 million dollars for blasting them out of the sky and opening the path to space early.
Thinking in terms of "saving lives" is overly optimistic in that situation lol
@@absurd.gaming Yeah "saving" should be taken with a grain of salt since it's really more like a temporary solution. Thermidor will straight up tell you in the Orca story that the Cradles are going to kill the people up there too with the pollution if they're not stopped somehow. Though I wonder if he'd join you and Old King against Serene Haze if he didn't escape the planet/die.
@@absurd.gaming Agreed. I would term it more saving the species, because a _lot_ of people are going to suffer and die. It's just, unlike siding with Wynne D, there is hope for humanity to survive it.
@@Sorain1 Yeah its a bit of a trolley problem
And then there's Old King ending where you just straight up murder everyone.
I love how this series is basically "everyone is clearly selfish go get money, and theres probably some person whos gone so far as to hate humanity for this greed and is now trying to kill everyone, stop him."
Totally Black things and people show up. Fortunately, you can get paid to take care of them. Does that make up for all the bad you've done? Doesn't really matter to the Raven, they have another mission to consider and parts to buy or bills to pay.
I never gave a moment's thought to the morality of any mission I took in any of the Armored Core games. It was a job. There was money. That was it. Didn't care if they were striking workers, terrorists, or corporate soldiers. And if blowing up a train netted me bonus money, I did it without a second thought.
This was never a series about morality. It's about survival and being swept up by events bigger than you and out of your control.
I think the series is about morality, but not overtly. It does train you to approach it with the mentality you mention here, but it also tempts you to ask "why" with some of the dialogue.
@@absurd.gaming You're right about being tempted to ask "why?" But, for me it was never a question rooted in morality, but curiosity. What's the reason behind the job? What's the long-term plan potentially at play? The intrigue behind the scenes is what always drew me in. Perhaps AC6 will make me think about the morality of the jobs I take. I suppose we'll all find out on the 25th.
That’s…a terrifying mindset lol.
@@drajion8976I think the guy just found a cool way to say they turned their brains off and didn't really pay attention to who they were shooting
In Armored Core games, the player character is never a good guy or a bad guy, he's just a guy. It's kill or be killed in the life of an AC pilot, and he's really good at killing.
Exactly.
Well except for that one ending where he's DEFINITELY a bad guy, but that's a special NG+ ending
@@JackgarPrime True, 100 million deaths is usually not a good thing, but in Armored Core it's just Tuesday.
AC2 and Last Raven are probably the only games with any semblance of decent morality
@@JackgarPrimeis he though? It’s the canon ending right? The cradles are all crashed in ac5. 💁🏽♂️
A fun point to your "Only the corporations can afford your AC." In the older AC games, contracts from 'rebel groups' show up sometimes, but that doesn't contradict your point. Because they are ultimately being funded by one corporation or another to strike at their rival corporations, so ultimately the money is still coming from the corporations. 6 might be an exception, because the RLF has access to the valuable resource of Coral to fund themselves. Yet the RLF might ultimately have been started by one corporation or another as a cats paw, and simply grown beyond the corporations control thanks to funding themselves with Coral sales.
Counter point to your statement of "There is no black and white." Black and White do exist, rare though they are, and one can make a reasonable judgement call of if something is blacker or whiter in nature. If someone is more or less terrible than someone else. If one choice or the other is more evil or good. To not bother to even try and make these discernments and thus abandon all morality is one of the dangers of the real world. The old lesson "Evil triumphs when Good men do nothing." comes to mind here.
All that being said, you are making a valid point with your video that is worthy of notice. Ravens are not knights, samurai, adventurers or heroes. Ravens are Mercenaries. The same Raven that slaughters striking workers for a corporation, may go on to prevent the devastation of the world by an orbital cannon. The same Raven may fight to defend the last outpost of opposition to corporate rule, or destroy it's defender. The same Raven that triggers the devastation of the world, may also prevent human extinction by the Internecine.
In a funny way, Armored Core shows that only by having power can one easily (or even at all) make the 'moral' choices. Be that the credits to take/reject contracts based on morality, or having the strength to break free of AI rule. At least, that is my Answer.
There are varying shades of grey, but pure black and white choices on the scale we are talking about are the exception rather than the rule. The fun of these games to me is trying to determine the relative greyscale of each option.
You could say it's your for answer. Eh? Eh? Alright I'll leave.
In other words, money talks.
@@absurd.gamingCounterpoint, Omer Science and Technology is always the bad guy.
binged AC6 for a few hours today, RLF gets their MT mechs from the BAWS corporation (the only corp that sells to them), so you hit the nail on the head that even when the rebels pay you they're getting backed by a corp.
i also wanna address your last point. i heard a quote somewhere, "violence is the power from which all other authority is derived." in other words, if you can't back up your view with fighting strength you'll be trampled over by everyone else that can, aka the rule of beasts/law of the jungle.
kinda funny how even in "civilized" society everything boils down to who can swing their club the hardest.
This setting is as grey as it gets, literally and metaphorically! Great vid
Yes, I love it.
I dunno what you're talking about. My AC is gonna be purple and neon blue.
must be all the ash from the burning Coral 🤔
To quote Ash Williams from Army of Darkness: "Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun."
Also, adding this, if there's one thing Ravens from Armored Core and Mercenaries from BattleTech have in common, it's that no matter what their morals are, what actions they take, they are all motivated by something so pure that it can't be considered good or evil.
Cold, hard cash. I don't care about who's in the right or wrong. I'm just here for those precious C-Bills/Credits and the occasional chunk of salvage.
Man, literally growing up playing games like the Armored Core franchise really helped to expose me to concepts and ideals i wouldn't of ever been exposed to otherwise.. I'm introspective, so, a lot of it really broadened my sense of self understanding and the like.
Basically, grew my brain. Lol
These games are truly amazing, and a work of art that I hope never fades.
Haha, yeah. I most of this went over my head at the time. As a kid, I didn't have as much context for understanding this stuff.
The conflict between RBL(rubicon liberation front) and the corporations heavily reminds me of the conflict between Navis and Mirage in AC:nexus. The Navis found a new resource in a certain area which brought huge developments for technology, however they refused any corporation from entering the space or mining any of this resource in an effort to retain a monopoly over the new substance. Navis was a very small corporation when compared to Mirage, the biggest corporation. I won’t spoil much in case u want to play nexus(if u haven’t played it), but I think the later story beats of the game could mirror with how AC6s story will turn out. Despite being the underdogs and protecting their “land”, the Navis use questionable tactics and them holding back the land from any other corporation could be argued to be holding back humanities progress, Mirage is an oppressive mega force vying for world domination. Neither of the corporations are the “good guys”, and I think like the other “underdogs and opposition groups”, RBL will have something sketchy going on behind the scenes(maybe manipulated by an AI).
That sounds about right for an Armored Core game. From could shake things up a bit, but I fully expect there to be some skeletons in the closet of every faction.
It seems likely from dialogue there's going to be a cult-ish element to them. It's possible that when they get to the point where there's truly no winning with the corporations slowly finishing them off. They'll likely then try to annihilate the whole planet.
I really hope it doesn't end like Nexus did. It's an effective ending, but I really don't think it will land well with most people. Then again, Nexus had only one ending, having the first playthrough end as Nexus did, and then new game plus let you prevent that, could be effective.
"Manipulated by an AI" would be *very in line* with AC, if you remember good-ol' Nine-Ball.
RLF also sound very much like some kind of cult with their worship of coral.
"There is No Ethical Consumption under Capitalism" extends to mech parts, and brother I'm buying that new generator
I feel like there were a lot fewer communist slogans in the youtube comments five years ago.
@@YumLemmingKebabs there were a lot of open fascists too, good thing that things are changing, slowly but surely
Commies are just aristoctrat wannabee capitalizing on human condition and lie to people on what causing their living condition.
@@mechanizedMytha Did you just imply that anyone who is opposed to communism is a fascist? Tells me all I need to know how you "people" operate, eerily similar to a German faction in 1939.
@@chaosexhaust7533 sorry i don't debate people who argue in bad faith.
I love armored core because it's how I feel about life and so I feel the most myself as a raven. Even as an independent worker in real life, I'm contracted by corporations a lot of the time, and a lot of the time it's to make them look good. "But you gotta pay the bills somehow." In the game at least the anger and frustration I feel can be released as I'm just another cog in the machine.
I commented on that post and I thought it'd be a good prompt for a video I'm glad you made it.
It was a good post that opened my eyes to the newcomer experience a bit.
Love watching ppl who have zero clue about Armored Core trying to disect it and talk about what they think while the rest of us just smirk in the background
Meanwhile, The Strayed LYNX:
Everyone must burn....
How else can something new grow?
Strayed is interesting. I read in an article/interview somewhere that all ACFA endings are canon, which implies that the end result of all endings is the same regardless of Strayed's choice.
(Chalks another line under the word "union worker/terrorist")
Well, they should have offered more than Crest.
"Working folk are terrorizing us by demanding compensation for manufacturing our corporate products!"
@@absurd.gaminghow dare they let's kill them
The devs have stated that certain actions and choices will have repercussions on what direction the story takes. I'm sure within those choices will be the option to bave both good and evil playthroughs but like you said there will likely be many grey areas on how our actions are perceived. I enjoy games that give you realistic choices and outcomes, for me it aids to inmersion greatly. Excellent vid, not long to go now!
There is no good or evil in AC, there's only the next obstacle to overcome, and the reward for doing so.
Ready to climb the wall?
@@absurd.gamingready
AC8-630 ready
@@absurd.gaming No, I'm going through it.
Besides FA and VD, where the canonical endings are either being a genocidal monster or giving humanity one last shot to survive a horde of murder drones.
I love the morality in Armored Core. It's always been so much more realistic than in other games with "moral choices". I actually had a thought about this semi-recently. I'd love to see a game where making noble or selfless choices end up making the game much harder in at least the short-term. Because that's how it works in real life. Being selfless is a lot more challenging than being selfish.
Imagine an Armored Core where your options were fat, easy paychecks for a big corporation or rewards so small that they barely covered your expenses but would benefit a greater amount of people. Your first few playthroughs would effectively force you down a path of financial selfishness. But as you gained more skills and knowledge about the game, you could afford to take the harder, but more noble missions on subsequent playthroughs. But for every fat paycheck you pass up, another mercenary - your competition - is picking that up and is able to upgrade their own mech more.
Fable 3
Fear and hunger
I feel like souls players would know, that in most of From’s game’s you dont play as a “hero” but as a “cog” in the mechanic of that world like the end of all these games it’s never anything “good”
I do think there might be a counterintuitive flair to how blunt the opposition to polarized thinking is in these games, I also think that From really means to drive that point across, and they'll do it with different tools in their different games. This is an interesting bit of text from the Order Healing incantation's description (Elden Ring):
"How easy it is for learning and learnedness to be reduced to the ravings of fanatics; all the good and the great wanted, in their foolishness, was an absolute evil to contend with. Does such a notion exist in the fundamentals of Order?"
It is rather curious to see a person, before the game even releases, already conflicted with the possibility that they're not clearly being told, with high resolution moralistic specificity, who it is they should be killing. The undercurrent thought doesn't seem to occur to them at all: my friend, you shouldn't be killing anyone in any circumstance, but now that you are, does it really matter what they believe before you murder them? This is most certainly a wrenching sentiment, which I think contrasts aesthetically with another sentiment of some AC vets with regards to their own idea of what piloting an AC is, a sort of "I fight (I win)", or even more dehumanizing, a sort of "I am become (an) AC", funny as that my sound. The pilot's sole resource for transcending their own morality is by accelerated abandonment of it. Though FA is (currently) the pinnacle of this field of grey, a simpler frame is found in J's climatic deliverance in VD "To live as I please, and die a senseless death."
Deliverance in these circumstances innately skirts death, which I think is yet another bit of evidence of what sort of world is being pictured in these games. The AC pilot always arrives _in media res_ by narrative demand, by default, by natural decree, by necessity. Just like we are all individually born in a world already "half way" into happening. Despite the themes, the weight, the sense of dread, the post-apocalyptic horizon - I think they are an allegory for the natural world. Mechanized _geworfenheit_ . I unironically suspect the OP might love AC6 if they just dive in, discomfort and all. The discomfort isn't going anywhere so... one might as well.
Thanks for another great topic. They always seem to cause an immediate reflective state for me. I appreciate that.
Thanks again for another thoughtful comment. That ER quote is so good. Questions like that are difficult, and always lead to more questions. It's uncomfortable to not get an answer, and so it is easier to not ask the question in the first place. ACFA is so cool because the game answers for you on the first playthrough, but then forces you to deal with the question if you keep playing.
“You got a pay the bills somehow” TH-cam music add instantly
Outrageous lmao
Armored Core For Answer has some of my favorite dystopian dilemmas in its endings the first being where you’re forced to choose by the end to save the last livable areas for humanity left but at the cost of preserving the status quo of an unequal society who’s ruling class quite literally looks down upon the people the systems that support their rule have rendered meaningless with little to no thought towards them dying in constant war from the only livable cities in the sky. And because you’re still preserving the status quo to save these people you’re still resigning society to a slow death march into oblivion given saving those people doesn’t change the fact that corporations will still war endlessly eventually creating an inhabitable planet with no escape given the mutually assured destruction like deadlock the orbital cannons in the setting provide preventing any corporation from reaching space to further colonize. Then there’s the ending where you destroy the orbital cannons in the hopes of freeing humanity into the stars giving them a chance to colonize and possibly find new livable areas among the stars but like the previous ending nothing about the status quo is fundamentally challenged so opening the way for corporations to colonize into space will still see the divisions in society as normal and most likely lead to a change of scenery for the people on the ground at most still maintaining a society that views the deaths of so many people as a justifiable cost of doing business ironically in a time where each life should be valued in the name humanity’s preservation in the face of oblivion. Makes the third ending almost seem justified despite becoming a mass murderer in that one given at least then you can bring the ruling class back down to the earth they’ve helped destroy and force them to face the reality normal people in this setting do and choose to either cut their dependency on the radiation causing energy source whose use in the never ending wars made the earth inhabitable or the more likely option where they choose to continue fighting and make that slow march towards annihilation an all but certain sprint towards it. All it takes is becoming a mass murderer to do so when bringing down the floating cities but at least then you’ve forced the ones most responsible for creating the world to live and die in the world they’ve created resigning humanity to the destruction the setting has been going towards up to that point but making death the grand equalizer breaking free from the divisions of class so that those in ruling positions of this society that helped lead it to its annihilation won’t be able to use the lowest rungs of that society who fight and die as their shield from the consequences of their rule. All pretty bleak endings that to me show an oppressive endurance these systems of destruction have when preying off the self interest of its people for the preservation of its structure at any and all cost.
we played as mercenary. the concept of good or evil is already thrown out of the window :D
I'm going to interpret that as a challenge.
I am sure that committing war crimes for the sake of big corpos puts you in the villain category.
I wholeheartedly believe that in reality both ambiguity and evil do exist. There are good, decent, and evil people. Of course not everyone is born that way, but whether it be through free will or an environment those people do develope.
I think it’s why I appreciate stories like this such as Princess Mononoke, while also appreciating stuff such as sound of freedom.
Edit: I wholeheartedly also believe that in reality morality is not ambiguous because morality is tied to reality itself. An example being the fact that war is bad inspite of it being needed at times it still doesn’t stop the fact that it’s still bad but it provided nuance in the sense that in order for a war to end or a highly corrupt system to be changed, sacrifices will have to be made big or small. But that doesn’t make it a good thing, it makes it the right path.
I think saying that morality is subjective is false, and it’s no different than saying that truth is subjective.
Good and Evil are definitely real. But they often cohabitate in reality, like the yin-yang.
@@absurd.gamingThat’s my point. For example in a story I’m developing while there are clearly good and evil forces and people, there are also people that are in between. So the main character is faced with the duality of where people stand and so he reflects on what he’s fighting for and whether or not it’s truely good and for the benefit of the world.
But there are also people seperate from the main antagonists that are downright wicked and deserve nothing good.
Morality is just as subjective as any other preference. We all judge the morality of things based on our principles, but our principles are themselves subjective.
@@zacheryeckard3051 No morality isn’t subjective. Nor are principals because as I said they are tied to reality.
Any paramilitary organization that calls their army "Liberation Front" or similar names like "Red Guard" are usually never an army fighting for Liberty or a better society. They''re told they are, given a vision of an utopia, and this can be seen in many historical or modern day real groups, they almost always are the paramilitaries of dictators, think Fidel Castro, or Che Guevara, so that may be the case here.
i'm new to Armored Core as it's been a long time since I last played one, early PS2 era as a kid, so it was one of the ones around that time, I love this kind of concept. Where you're just a soldier, a mercenary caught up in the middle of corporate warfare.
"“War has changed.
It's no longer about nations, ideologies, or ethnicity. It's an endless series of proxy battles, fought by mercenaries and machines.
War--and it's consumption of life--has become a well-oiled machine.
War has changed.
ID-tagged soldiers carry ID-tagged weapons, use ID-tagged gear. Nanomachines inside their bodies enhance and regulate their abilities.
Genetic control, information control, emotion control, battlefield control…everything is monitored and kept under control.
War…has changed.
The age of deterrence has become the age of control, all in the name of averting catastrophe from weapons of mass destruction, and he who controls the battlefield, controls history.
War…has changed.
When the battlefield is under total control, war becomes routine.”
― David Hayter as Solid Snake
AC VI sounds great in this regard.
Armored core and Battletech; morally ambiguous mercenary life and giant robots. Hell yes.
Everyone mentioning cyberpunk as a theme, you owe it to yourselves to explore battetech lore. Less corpo and more neo-feudalism, but you're still a merc who gets paid to stomp on orphanages in a multi-ton bipedal death machine.
I'm personall looking forward to rping someone trying to ignore their emotions just so they can get their life back. AC has always been at best you or them.
Saaame. It's gonna be so interesting.
I feel like people like ourselves will experience AC6 as a much more intense narrative experience.
Feel the pain of each kill, feel the guilt of each payout. Every credit earned, another life sacrificed.
Been catching up on the armoured core franchise(Newbie to franchise) and honestly it's kinda refreshing to be playing a morally grey character..... infact I'd say you normally play a morally irresponsible character. You don't necessarily care about any cause and can base your descisions on simply which missions give the most money over any actual favour to a faction. Or you could be choosing simply by what extends the war further. As war is your business.(Even though I believe there's no 'extended' campaign based off descisions I think, just an interesting idea to base your descisions on)
In a past game you accept a job from a corp where you stop striking workers, just to later accept a job from another corp to destroy the bridge you essentially forced the strikers to build. And other games you are made to act as a terrorist. Your character works to fund themselves and theoretically no job is bad enough unless it directly hinders the player(like possibly being suicidal or something, and Handler Walter seems to not really care about your life too much so I suspect his route where you may not betray him has you take on ever increasingly dangerous missions) Point is that choosing missions is your choice, for whatever reason you can think of. But I also find it interesting that no matter what choice you make, you will never fully join a cause/corp. Imagine the route where you choose to work with the liberation front. But you don't just join them and they supply you, removing the need for money and self funding yourself. Which means you are not 100% with them. if things go wrong you can still bail at any time. If that makes sense, but what I mean is you are not beholden to anyone and the world even seems to realize this too. The corps genuinely understand your loyalty is fickle and will hire you right after you hurt them at times(until you eventually show too much favour for a faction I assume)
It makes for an interesting world where your character theoretically just doesn't ask questions and simply works for paying their own bills. And by the end could kinda just stumble into be a central figure of a war and becoming the best raven/mercenary out there. Instead of choosing a side and finding some moral good. I wouldn't be surprised if the liberation front is shown to be good guys, but then you start working with them and realize they are just as bad as the corps, or worse. Maybe even the ending will imply the liberation front winning just makes the planet isolated and have a lack of resources which ultimatly causes a civil war in the future or something.
Perhaps a subtle message will even be that regardless if you are under the control of handler Walter, or free making your own descisions(Later in the game I assume) you will begin to realize that no path is solely good. Your job is to do the worst things the companies don't want to be affiliated with, or are high risk. Despite the idea of 'freedom' that the ravens/mercenaries have, you are still a slave to a paycheck. You just get to choose which brand of horrible you get it from.
Shout out to Project Phantasma where we are pressured by best girl Sumika to be a literal Good Guy
Great Deep Dive as always Absurd!
Thank you!
@@absurd.gamingNah bro! Thank you for scratching the AC itch with intellectual talking points👍🏾
In armored core you are a mercenary. You follow the money to get better parts to stay alive to complete another mission to stay alive to fight again.
In the words of solid snake “I am no hero, never was” and snake was right as he was the bad guy from the start.
There are only villains and survivors in AC. Sometimes, you are presented with taking a moral choice here and there, but oftentimes, the morality of the characters is grey. It is a game about a dystopian world full of giant mechs and tyrannical corporations, after all.
Great video. My biggest problem with morality in games is, as you said, it’s usually just black or white. It’s really hard to make a character and try to play as them like how a real person would act.
No one is pure good or pure evil, but most games do clearly want you to choose only one side, the other or handicap yourself. Takes me right out
Exactly. Games like that often force you to be a caricature. Either lawfully-stupid a comically evil. It can be fun, but it doesn't approach morality with any degree of sincerity. It kind of works in Fallout because the whole franchise is satire, but in KOTOR, it's offputting. I'm glad that KOTOR2 made changes in its approach to good vs evil. It's a much better game, but still not perfect in this respect.
That's why the only fallout game I like is new vegas. The game is the opposite of black and white. It's deciding the future of the mojave wasteland in a very complicated political situation where everyone has a decent argument and reason for living. Except the legion, they lost all credibility for me when they dressed up like pedos, but every other faction has good reasons for existing, or not existing.
Good video. Liked the atmosphere.
Thanks!
What i really love about armored core is how we aren't just "the hero" or "the villain". We're a true neutral, a wild card. It's realistic. Shades of gray instead of black and white, which is really interesting.
This is why adore Fromsoftware's works, 90% of people in their games fight and slaughter each other for the sake of their own survival.
Even if your intentions are good you're likely going to have to accomplish them through dubious means.
Theres no good or evil in armored core. Only the next paycheck
It's funny. You probably couldn't really do the jolly co-op that is so integral to the Souls games. Because that's all about helping others. That would be contrary to the theme fromsoft wants to explore here in ACVI.
Yeah, there are no friends in that universe. RIP Joshua
I could see how that could work within theme. Make a set of co-op missions, have some random elements in them... including a chance that another Raven or two shows up to oppose you... and the chance that the contract of your partner includes _your_ death or vice versa. Go full on player freedom and let your co-op buddy from the mission decide to do nothing and let their 'reinforcements' die to you, or flip sides and help you. Leave it up to Ravens to decide if their fellow bird is trustworthy or not.
The randomness to it would be to keep it secondary and a possibility rather than a certainty. Let players make the call in situ if they're going to take that bonus contract to take out their 'mission partner', maybe without ever telling the other player they had the option.
I think that would work with the setup and theme of an AC game.
Honestly, Fires of Raven ending, Rusty is totally the protag. Even gets a "I'm not done yet" moment when you kill him. For Rubiconians, you are the villain. But then again, Rubiconians are sentient, hive mind parasites capable of gaining control over high class weaponized machinery. So you stopped a brethren moon scenario by nuking then
Counterpoint: Abide with Rubicon
"Forged in Ash, we stand as One!"
That could be interesting, could say have a pretty difficult defense mission if you side with them against the corporations and maybe if you lose it ends normally but if you win the corporations leave Rubicon alone but it could have a being a wall against evil that'll eventually break scenario.
You are not a hero in AC6? Now that's Absurd.
The true "villain" of Armored Core as an overall concept and series is the system society exists under. And the fact that there's almost never anything you can meaningfully do about it is exactly the point. Faceless corporate entities give you your work, and you either do it, or you starve. It's easy to fight a bad guy, a villain with a face and clear motivations and plans. A system, though? How do you fight the way society works? Especially when there isn't one entity at the heart of it (which there kind of was in the very first game, but even then, you didn't REALLY solve the world's problems there) but everyone is complicit in its perpetuation, either deliberately or because that's the only way they can survive. And those who try to band together to fight it? They're bugs to be squashed by the larger entities that are the largest beneficiaries of the system, who also happen to be the ones who can afford the player's services.
The canon endings to last raven have the corpos being screwed over, all the ravens dying is pretty much only a good thing
"Tyranny" is one of those legit RPG that focus on villainous bleak & gray often dark elements. You don't have karma, only supremacy. Very underrated CRPG imo.
Tbh, most of recent Fromsoft games are rather ambiguous on which are really the good side & bad sides. Sekiro is arguably the only true hero of justice story & it did have massive consequences between being good or bad.
Ill have to check out tyranny
But of course I´m a hero, my own hero.
*Proced to burn Rubicon again*
Perfect description of AC and reality
We don't have any allies. No allies, or enemies. We love everyone! Hahahahaha!
Very well put. It's that moral ambiguity that makes it such a unique series, and I can't wait to see what they do in 6.
I don't want a story that's basic in its approach. I don't want a story that gives me a bright visage of a calm and cozy escape. I think I prefer a story that reflects the bleakness of the reality that I live in
So In a nutshell it's grimdark. A world without light.
It's all about prospective and how you see yourself in the grand scheme
That's true. Everyone is the hero in their own story.
@@absurd.gaming "You seek a world filled with endless war and destruction. On that we can agree."
I think you mean, "perspective?" You're welcome 👍
If you like the type of lore armored core is, y'all should check out Warhammer and it's lore. It has the same effect as "there are no good guys" aspect
Stumbled on your channel a couple weeks ago, and i gotta say, keep it up man! Insightful vids with unique perspectives. earned an easy sub!
Thanks so much. I intend to keep going and improve.
In Armored Core. You are a Mercenary. Good? Bad? Who cares You want to fight and you want money. What I find one of the many things I find interesting is the Protagonists. They are so skilled that not only can they change the world but also Corporations and other Mercenaries want to kill them. In a way Last Raven and V/Verdict Day acknowledges this with the Terms “Dominant” and “Dark Raven” what Human + Pilots, AI Controlled ACs Superweapons lack is Natural Talent and the ability to adapt. I think this is why the Protagonists are so skilled in a Universe and Meta Scene as well.
When you first start an Armored Core game you have trouble with the controls and you start out with Average AC parts that will help you in a few missions but later on as you Improve not only your AC but your Piloting skills as well.
"In a revolution, blood must be spilled." - Old King, AC For Answer
There're plenty of mysteries on Rubicon to discover
What is the origin of Coral?
Why does the RLF praise Coral with an almost Religious fervor?
What are Walter's motivations?
Why is 621 stuck being a Hound?
For now, those will remain questions, but I'm sure the answers will be found on Rubicon 3
Abide with Rubicon
I'm excited to explore those questions on the 25th
Same here. Knowledge is power, and I intend to learn all I can about this world.
In this game's specific context its kinda like the Rda vs the navi on a far larger industrial scale but even then with the state of the world with how far the metal streches along the landscape like a parasite we're very much playing on the opposing side from the poor folks of Rubicon which are barely holding on to thier husk of a home
This observation about morality in armored core for my point of view is pretty subjetive, the raven protagonist can do pretty awful things like ill civilians, destroy urban etc but at the same time you can do rescue missions, defends civilian areas etc, the gray point here are the corporation who rules any of the entities do horrible thing justifying their action in the name of "progress" or "greater good" for humanity, remember murakumo millenium employing ravens for the project of human+, crest and mirage manipulating the truth about the controller malfunctioning or all the plot of the satellite in silent line and etc, you are just a mercenary in this world at the end of the day you have the decision to take any mission which alight with your morality or your sense of right and wrong, heck even many ravens are pretty kind or honorable like noblesse obliege, ace, moebius, valkyrie, apple boy etc
You did an excellent work video, some people are judging ur video without watching on Twitter (it's not a surprise) , but you did an excellent covering about the moralities of AC universe.
If It's your interest, I would like you to to do a video going a bit deeper on each faction , what they are, what they do, what's their goal .
I figured when im getting jumped in the abandoned factory by a group of 4 shadow wizards.
Its all about the pay baby.
It's a common theme in Armored Core for sure, although whether or not you're heroic is sometimes left more up to the player in some cases.
Generally though it definitely plays with the concept a lot of the grittier, more "realistic" styled mecha series' like some of the Gundam series' or Votoms, where the protagonist...despite being the audience's main perspective, is but one soldier or individual in a complicated situation much bigger than them, and whether they're a "hero" or a "villain" or, if either of those terms even apply is fully a matter of perspective. Even in some cases where the protagonist is generally heroic and means well, the full validity or the true value of their actions or input in the larger perspective is sometimes put under a microscope too. As if to say sometimes what it really comes down to is that all one can do is do their best.
Personally I feel like if anyone’s a “villain” it would be our handler, but even then, the lines are very grey there
Walter may not end up being quite as villainous as the story trailer suggests. We will get to find out soon!
@@absurd.gaming Either way I'm keen to leave him behind as soon as possible and join up with that other handler's people. To me, anywhere is better than being kept on a leash...
I can't wait to discover all the lore in this game. One of my favorite thing about soulbourne is watching loretuber discovery
This is how I approached Verdict day. I didn't pvp with a team or concerned my self with what factions was capturing or captured lands. All I cared about was how much I got , how well I preformed and did I help that team win . That was only to propell myself to be hired more for more money and able to keep upgrading my gundam...errrr my AC. Most of the time I was solo and didn't talk..I just let my performance speak for itself. Being a solo merc in verdict was fun for me. Plus it was fun to use a ac that I custom to look exactly like a gundam . My patch said Velox Mortis , I was either going to kill fast or die fast and move on to learn from mistakes
Thats kind of the charm of it. Sometimes I dont want to be the hero, sometimes I just want enough justification to do something because to me-the player-its FUN. Being in the gray morally allows you to explore alot more to the moral compass than games often allow you to afford, no one is good, no one is evil, theres just different shades of both.
Hey Ab, how are you doing man?
Another excellent video, such a good discussion.
When I saw the first mission i was like "F**, are we already in the grey zone?"
I felt bad for the locals of Rubicon, we start already killing some of them, and stealing another's identity.
I'm really curious how the story will unfold. I have a feeling that Walter is in some sort of redemption journey (despite questionable speeches in the start), and we ended up in this turmoil dragged by him.
Anyway, as i'm obsessed with Walter, I feel more than ready to help my man in his journey.
Abide with Rubicon!
I'm doing well, thanks. Nice to see you again!
sometimes changing team that offers better pay is better than switching to a losing team full of promises but nothing to offer...
If the Old King has taught me anything...
Its that there is no good.
Yeah I am, I mean, someone's gotta save my bank account from being in the red right?
Armored Core lets me fulfill my Gundam dream of committing war crimes with a giant robots
In the end... you're just a mercenary. Working for the people who pays the highest.
I'm sure FromSoft will take the Dark Souls approach, where the player's decision will not matter because it won't stop the inevitable. Such an ending will keep debates existing months after the game's release. I live for open discussions and new discoveries of perspectives. ^_^
That was the case in ACFA before Dark Souls
@@absurd.gaming True, but unfortunately, the souls series was their breakout IP that appealed to the masses which just helped prove they got it right with that direction used in AC4A. ^_^
setting seems a lot more shades of gray than i thought.
Its stated that you can side with diferent faction more securely in armored core 6, but i have afeeling even the rebels are gonna be pretty gray. They fight and act in a very... religious furver.
Thanks, I was on fence about buying this game since it'll be my first AC game but you just changed my opinion and now I'm definitely buying it
That’s the awesome part. You are no undying hero, You are just a handyman with a lit AF Mech.
With regards to the trolley dilemma, the only way to equally value all life in a situation where some must die...
is to kill all of them.
I honestly feel like a mercenary in this game. I wonder with All the destruction I cause during missions , what are the consequences for the the actions and missions
We are ravens and lynx. We dont get paid to feel, or consider another. The only ones we can think about in our choices, is our ACs. We do whats best for our survival. Even if it means betraying who we are just to breath another day
Speak for yourself, I am the villain.
LOL in ACFA when you bring the cradles down, oh its clearly wrong but it felt so good.
In short term you play as a "mercenary"
I wouldn't say I'm bad guy, I'm beast hunting on frozen fields of a planet that's falling to chaos. I have no illusion of one side being good or bad. Nor do I care. I'm just looking for my next hunt. I have my morality that I won't break, but so long as it doesn't challenge that, the next fight is all that matters.
If you think there's no clear line bwteeen heroes and villains in real life. You aren't just a tool, you're the whole damn tool shed
You say Civilians, I say "Bonus Pay."
no goodies or baddies - only mechs and mercenaries
You're not a hero or a villain, you're a soldier.
Soldier is putting it lightly
Ahh, a KOTOR enjoyer
KOTOR turned me into a PC gamer 20 years ago :)
As the highly augmented, and enhanced emotionally stunted AC mercenary I must say.
“Your money is good, now transmit orders.”
bro , we help a corpo to beat a corpo and then help the same beaten corpo to destroy the previous corpo we helped . we ARE the villain
I mean, there are definite villains in the corporate executives and leaders who actually have the power to make the world a better place but consistently choose not to for the sake of their own fathomless avarice, and there are definitely victims like our own character for example, who as far as we can tell is basically enslaved by Walter. It's not clear that we could even choose death over obedience. The idea that it's all just "human nature" is disproven by the very existence of the points such a statement is meant to debunk. So anyway, whoa cool robot!
I’m my own hero. The villain is being broke and I save myself by getting that mercernary money.
Imo Josh Strife Hayes put it best
*We're not a good guy or a bad guy. We're a Raven a mercenary for hire*
In AC you are a weapon/tool used to get things done. An agent of change.
the graphical difference between gameplay and cinematics made me totally forgot about morality in the earlier AC series.
I only enjoyed listening to futuristic bgm while tweaking my AC.
The Cinematics vs gameplay difference made me shooting at gameplay pixels with no guilt whatsoever.
Also a 1vs 1 cheating AI duel made me winning that duel totally justified.
And the icing on the cake, I did this all with the broken controller settings they default presented for me in that AC!
I am more than justified to WIN against all these sh!tting odds against me!
They should pity me then the others that against all Shitting odds I am the survivor in that Coffin, they called an Armored Core!
Now thats is morality.
Victim of the system at Best super bad guy at worst