I am not so sure. The breath attack has a lot more up front damage, as well as the various slows, which makes it really difficult to disengage. The bear also seems a lot more durable. The Incarnate is faster and has anti-large.
Giant bear should have like 1500 more HP (it has 10500) and some missile resist for 2200 gold. A Giant has better everything, more HP, same leadership (not unbreakable but may as well be), better melee stats, better WS, better charge bonus, 10 less speed. Doesn't have the phys resist but has missile resist, no frost aura or breath attack, but the kicker is it cost only 1500 gold!! 700 less than a bear. Bear is probably one of the worst monsters for its price, unfortunately.
@@robertsimon-kroppmanns7287 The bear is 1900 in MP(and Giant is 1400 MP). Do not underestimate the power of the breath and slows. Decimating a unit of heavy infantry or cavalry in an instant, before they get to do any damage themselves, can have a huge impact(leadership, combat effectiveness etc.). Slowing enemies by more than 50% total so that they cant disengage from a bad fight/spell effects is also a strong abillity to have. Giants are cheaper because they have fairly low armor(50) and are slow compared to most big monsters(39 speed) and bring 0 utility outside of Terror. 50 armor 15% missile resistance does not hold up to punishment compared to 90 armor and 25% physical resistance combined with healing.
@@fendelphi My mistake, pulling my stat information from the wiki as I'm at work and away from my home computer. 500 gold is still a big jump in price, all the debuffs and extra speed do go a long way. I've seen an ice bear charge do over 40% to a unit it wasn't targeting. I find breath attacks on ground based monsters much less useful though, as you can't use them when engaged in melee, and ground units can't pick their engagements as well as flying units. Also the physical resist and armour is good, but doesn't really compensate for all the stats it loses. Also doesn't help against magic attacks obviously. Not saying the bear is terrible, but 1500 HP (for 12k) and 10% missile resist would go a long way for a monster so gigantic. It's not as tanky as it should be. It's a giant bear made of ice and stone, why does it have 20 melee defense?
@@robertsimon-kroppmanns7287 Dont use the wiki for stats. It is very inaccurate in general. The Ghorgon is 2000 gold in MP. The Beastmen also have access to Giants(1400 gold), yet you rarely see the Giants used. Again, the reason is speed and durability. The Giant has a lot of health, but it is a massive and fairly slow missile magnet. Similar case for the Elemental Bear when compared to the Giant. It is far more durable to missile fire, as it is faster and far tougher. The low MD is almost meaningless, since it will be surrounded most of the time anyway(anyone hitting from behind only deals with 30% of the MD value). Having 30(which is the MD value of the Elemental Bear, which is the same as a Giant) or 35 would barely make a difference except when dueling other big things. Personally, I find breath attacks much better on the ground. In the air, the angle means you need to do a lot of extra positioning to hit enough targets, which usually means a lot of extra micro and time, and firing from fairly far away(it is easier to dodge as well). On the ground, it is more or less a flat trajectory, making it much easier to hit multiple models. And the Elemental Breath hits really hard(72 AP per projectile). A Hydra's Breath is 32 AP per projectile. The Elemental Bear's durability is fine. It is really tough against non-magical attacks(which is the majority) and you can heal it. And Unbreakable does matter. I have seen Giants flee from battle several times. It is actually not that uncommon, as they are really easy to damage with ranged attacks(which leads to massive leadership penalties).
The new Kislev units look good, and maybe it's just me but thematically it's weird to see kossars fighting alongside a bunch of wood aberrations. I am not familiar with the lore though, so not sure how lore-friendly it is.
I kinda see them in a similar way to the Elemental Bear in that the land is rising up to repel invaders. While the bear is most certainly a manifestation of Ursun’s wrath, these creatures are likely that of Kislev, the Mother Land. This theme may be a nod to the oft-memed history of invading armies being brought down through attrition trying to march into Russia by the cold and scarcity of resources between major cities.
I think it works, Kislev is supposed to be a bit more "primal" than the Empire or even Cathay, with deep connections to the woods and land etc. (not to mention the proximity to the chaos wastes is gonna and should make things a bit.... weirder) I thought it was weird at first too, though
It could very well be kossars who are more for the old Kislevite ways, which were more attuned to the natural world and heeding the hag-witches’ wisdom. The Kislev we play currently (Katarin and Kostaltyn) fall more into the ‘reformed’ Kislev. What would be most odd to me is tzar and ice guard fighting for Ostankya… unless you consider them turncoats I guess.
@@BobWaffleMan Yeah, let's see if I chance my mind after I play with them a little bit. Which will probably take a while as I am not planning on jumping in the new DLC until a price discount...
I'm happy that kisliev and cathay got new unites but as a Norscan main PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF SIGMAR!!!!!!!!! please give us an updated or a free ll or something anything!
@@TheBarser they fit a hell of a lot better than they would in Norsca if you know even a tiny bit about Kislev and the Ungol Hags' lore. They're not big chaos fans, let's put it like that. Plus, they've always been part of Kislev, and embody both the ungols and the old forest spirits that have inhabited Kislev long before the gospodars moved in and formed the Kislevite tzardom. Some hags even have the power to become creatures known as ancient widows, which are embodiments of the mournful and vengeful spirits that inhabit Kislev, and it's sad that they weren't included in the DLC. The only part that doesn't really fit is that Mother Ostankya can use the full Kislev roster, although I guess that's just because of multiplayer. In the campaign you can get away with using just things in the woods, incarnates, rangers and maybe regular kossars since they're more Ungol than Gospodar, for a more thematic and lore-accurate army.
Hey Turin, you’ve always said Kislev has good roots and only needs some dlc love to pull them together. Does this DLC give them what they need? Kislev will certainly appreciate the broader magic diversity
Yeah, doesn't make sense for Russian wildmen to have higher range on their crossbows than tier 4 elite dark elf crossbows that ride in the frozen wastelands
Armored Kossars definitely need a missile damage nerf. Even the +50 gold increase didn't really slow them down after the extra entities were added. The fact they outdamage Ice Guard (who I hope got some melee buffs in addition to the additional -50 cost) on a per volley basis is nutty. Akshina rangers need to lose AP in melee it seems. Might also need a price increase (personally I think Streltsi could also stand to be slightly cheaper and have the same range as every other rifle unit, so that may also factor into making both viable). Not sure the Incarnate completely displaces the bear but it's certainly close. I think the breath attack has some potential benefits if you can set it up against high value infantry but whether that's enough is unclear.
Ice Guards deal more damage against infantry(since their arrows penetrate). They also have far longer range and the slowing utility. Armored Kossars might get 1 volley off before being charged themselves. Their shooting is opportunistic at best. Akshina Rangers have decent damage(roughly the same as Streltsi), but lacks the same durability(low armor). Might be slightly overtuned, but we have to see more of them in action to really judge. The Bear's breath, slows and durability have their merits. The Incarnate has speed and Anti-large. The Incarnate rarely wants to stay in a melee grind for long(it is more like a shock attack piece), so the Mortis effect has limited application.
@@fendelphi Ice Guard don't deal more damage to infantry actually. Did a bunch of testing and the pen change added basically 0 damage. The arc of the arrow means they hit one unit and then the ground unfortunately. On straight shooting units it's a huge buff but for arcs it does nothing. The range and slowing is also much less useful than it sounds since most factions just counter shoot you with cheap units which shred the Ice Guard. The fact they suck in melee by price is just the icing on the cake. And I don't know how many games you've watched, Armored Kossars pretty consistently get 2 to 3 volley's off (out of 6), which do enough damage to shred unshielded targets. Approaching Kislev on live is much, much harder because of how hard you get punished for closing into range. The fact that they're then longbeards in melee makes them absurdly powerful for a 700 cost unit. Akshina rangers are squishier, but have vanguard, stalk, and better range. At the same price it's a complete no brainer, though I think this has more to do with Streltsi being kind of expensive at 850 for what you get. Most rifle units are around 200 gold cheaper and Streltsi melee isn't worth +200 gold. Agreed on the bear.
@@spellbound1875 Depends on the arc(relative positions and distance), but it does deal more damage. Firing down hill against an enemy trying to run up it will ensure a lot of value. Same on a flat area at close range. Of course, if you place them behind your frontline in a way that they have to arc a bit more, the penetration bonus will stop having a big impact. I have seen Ice Guards break up infantry formations long before they reach your lines multiple times, but cant really say the same for the Armored Kossar(and I use them a lot). Armored Kossars get 2-3 volleys off, if they are firing against slow moving targets that tries to get someplace else(like a unit next to them or further behind). Against units with a moderate amount of speed(35+) that charges directly at them, they usually only get 1 full volley off, with maybe half a volley extra before getting into melee. Again, terrain might allow you an extra volley here and there. Regardless, 2-3 volleys is still nothing compared to the 6-7 volleys you can potentially get from the Ice Guard. So Ice Guards can get counter-fired, which according to you makes them vulnerable compared to Armoured Kossars(which is true to a certain degree), but when it comes to Streltsi and Ambushers, it is not an important factor? Ice Guards outrange a lot of skirmish units, while Armoured Kossars do not. That is one factor here. The other being that Ice Guard survivability against counter-fire is not that bad, as they do have 50 armor and 88 health per model(while Armored Kossars have 82 health per model). By comparison, the Streltsi has roughly the same health as the Ambusher(I think it is 1 hp difference per model) and only 10 less range, but has more than double the armor value, much faster projectiles and better accuracy. They will actually hit targets reliably at their max range, while the Ambushers will not, meaning they will trade much better with other ranged units. As for the price of Streltsi, most gunpowder units do not have 70 armor and 30 seconds of Unbreakable, while dishing out AP damage in melee. Fleshhounds of Khorne lose to Streltsi in melee. The only unit they really compare to, is the Dwarf Thunderers(at 700) which is far worse in melee and has overall less ranged firepower(as they have fewer models but same missile damage profile). I dont think they are overcosted, when it is really difficult to remove them without taking a lot of damage in return.
@@fendelphi 1. I've done a lot of testing with Ice Guard and I've not been able to produce the results you are indicating. Even if in some circumstances that is possible it's clearly not consistent which is a major issue for a unit that is quite expensive and very poor in melee for the price. 2. Armored Kossar damage per missile is literally higher than the damage per Ice Guard shot. They also have more AP damage per shot (7 vs 6). They also have 20 more entities further multiplying the damage. They literally do more damage on a per volley basis. Even with less volleys the damage is much closer than it should be. And that's before we account for cost and melee capacity. There's a reason Armored Kossars get spammed over Ice Guard, a fact made worse when you remember the range cap makes them either or units. 3. Counter shooting definitely applies to the Streltsi vs Akshina comparison, it just favors Akshina. Stalk, arc of fire, and greater range make them harder to counter shoot safely. Additionally the high AP damage means some of the biggest problem units (armored crossbows) are substantially less effective at counter shooting them. Again when looking at the limited number of ranged units available for factions as a whole Streltsi don't have a place. Additionally I have no idea where the accuracy comparison is coming from, nothing I've seen suggests a meaningful accuracy difference between any of the units beyond calibration areas rewarding longer range slightly. 4. Streltsi compared to other gunpowder unit is less favorable than you think. As you highlight Thunderers are the obvious comparison at 150 less, but you understate the defensive difference (+10 armor and bronze shields makes them much harder to counter shoot) and overstate the melee gains (Streltsi are significantly better offensively but matched defensively which has some serious anti-synergy with a missile unit). I'll also note the range, accuracy, and calibration area differences make dawi notably more accurate which compensates somewhat for the entity difference. Also they have 2 more potential volleys which is not nothing. I'd pick thunderers any day over Streltsi who suffer pretty heavily when cycle charged by most targets and are much easier to counter shoot with arced missiles. I would argue you overstate the value gained by their melee prowess when they pay such a premium. Mind you I think they would just need something like -50. They're just a touch pricey for what you get, totally usable but with the ranged caps not easily competitive.
Should Norsca take trolls in this matchup? They're cheaper, more durable, hit harder compared to skin wolves. They aren't as fast, but you've got poison dogs and ice wolves if you need to pin something down.
The Ambushers having high AP in melee seems overtuned, I'm not sure how the exact stats and costs compare but I don't think a gunpowder faction should have stalking archer units comparable to Waywatchers and Shades. I expected them to be more beefier Huntsmen with Poison or something.
Akshina ambushers are too good, why should you ever take Streltsi instead? For the same price Akshina have more range, more speed, more damage and stalk (and can also shoot over units); Streltsi in return have only +40 armor... Also that 25 seconds net with 3 uses on the RoR version is ridicolous... CA can you give us some balance plz?
"only +40 armor". So you take roughly half as much return damage on Streltsi compared to the Akshina Ambushers. Akshina Ambushers will take severe damage against all kinds of ranged fire and any form of melee attack. They will probably lose to basic hound units. Streltsi win those fights. Also, direct fire weapons have some advantages(and some drawbacks) compared to bows, especially when dealing with smaller single entities and fast moving targets. The units serve different roles. Streltsi are a mainline fighting force, while the Ambushers are, well, ambushers. Also, I havent had a look at the specific AP values of the Ambushers, but they probably do not have as high AP ratio as the Streltsi.
@@fendelphi You have a good point on projectiles vs bow attacks (fast projectiles and stun vs small units). Hovewer regarding the armor the difference is not that much as you suggest: 30 armor is on average 22.5 damage reduction Vs normal damage, while 70 is on average 52.5 damage reduction Vs normal damage, so exactly a 30% difference (not half damage), also consider that even the most non penetrating weapon has a penetrating part of damage (at least 1/6 of the dmg). So lets say 25% less damage in exchange for more damage, speed, range and stalk...
I found kislev to be a bit boring before this dlc mainly the Legendary Lords and lack of variety in non infantry, I think this is exactly what it needs to be a fun, good and interesting faction to play.
I honestly feel like neither things in the woods nor the beast incarnates fit with kislev like really. It fits for a lot of factions otherwise, wood elves, beastmen, dark elves, norsca actually but not kislev. You would either have to make a kislevite version with snow fx and white fur or something or you would have to give kislev more units that fit with the deep dark northern forests vibe that the dlc is going for. A melee infantry unit with even more of that theme than the drushina for example, like people with deerskins and rock weapons, skyrim forsworn basically. Yknow, make that part of the faction more solidified.
Man, I think they messed up big time by not making Mother Ostanka a kislev lord, leading an army of reskinned barbarians!!! The things in the woods just dont fit in with Kislev too me.
Like, Skin Wolves, Ice Wolves, Mammoths, Trolls, Giants, Wyverns, all feel like they fit right in with this new lord!! And then like I said, you reskin the marauder infantry and replace their berserk ability with kislev's 'by our blood' ability. Think of what a sweet and unusual order ally this lord could be!!! I'm not sure about adding her too the Kislev main roster in multiplayer either. The army doesn't look consistent anymore.
Hmm, maybe. On one hand, 0.8% would make more sense, but on the other, it has no limit on number of units affected, and it also increases morale and fatigue, and it is not a spell(no WoM cost). I guess it should be 0.8% and then CA just have to make sure that the ability has a gold cost to match.
@@fendelphi +4 morale doesn't really matter a ton for Kislev either. Maybe the vigor would be nice if it has a pretty short cooldown or if it's pretty cheap to bring
Turin i love ya man, but u havent said the name of the Incarnate Elemental of Beasts right once in one of ur videoes lmao. u keep saying elemental incarnate of beasts, or some variations lolll, incarnate of elemental beasts is hard to hear over and over. just a thought
imo the walk animation looks a bit half-assed. It doesn't really sell the weight of the creature. It looks like it's coming over to help you move some boxes, not hustling around a battlefield.
@@mwolf7218 Everything cost more. A lot of new titles are priced at 70 or 80 now. Makes sense that DLCs follows this trend to some extend. That is just how inflation works. And to be honest, the content I have seen so far is pretty good. Several cool units for each faction, great Legendary lords. My only issue is that it is bundled in a big pack. I wouldnt mind paying 8€ for the Kislev part and another 8€ for the Grand Cathay one. But I have no real interest in Tzeentch, even if I think the lord and units themselves look cool.
@@mwolf7218 Thanks for responding rationally and respectfully but I feel the resentment being hurled at CA is more than just a "bit" of rage. People are attaching their emotions onto this issue and working themselves into a feverish tirade of anger. Now people are so enraged that they are now looking for any such thing to channel their anger. I see comments about how CA is some predatory company and how the game is terrible. I mean this couldn't be further from the truth, the game is awesome and their are far worse companies out there pushing $20 skins and lootboxes. Perhaps this was the straw that broke the camel's back, but I just get so tired of the endless anger and negativity. If you're unhappy with the DLC, that's fine, you don't have to buy it. I'm not exactly thrilled about the price increase either, but to flock to Reddit and TH-cam and Discord and where ever else to bitch and moan about a $5 increase over Champion's of Chaos is just tiresome. If you want to protest, don't buy it ... that's the best thing you can do.
@@mwolf7218 It does not really offer less. Chaos Dwarf DLC would only ever be interesting if you want to play that specific faction. And while you do get 3 LL there, it is all also with the same faction same faction mechanics and more or less the same area and overall gameplay, so in terms of gameplay diversity, you dont get "that much extra". SoC DLC brings 3 LL, 1 special hero, and 31 units in total from what I have read. That is roughly the same size as some of the smaller factions, like Tomb Kings, Ogre Kingdoms or Norsca. But you get to use it in very different ways(location, unit diversity and faction mechanics) and adds a lot of new flavour to the core factions. If it had been 8€ per faction sold individually, I think it would have been a fair price. It makes me want to play the new LL of the faction at least once, as well as one of the original lords with the new units at least once. So for 8€ per faction, I would say I will get my money's worth.
Deer cavalry sounds cool but maybe a little redundant. Not every faction needs every type of unit, Kislev shouldn't be an artillery faction and doesn't need flying units
A land known for their Blizzards probably should not have a big focus on artillery and flying units. They got some Stalkers and Monstrous Infantry now.
going to live vicariously through watching the new units in these vids since im not getting the dlc
"Mother oSTONKya" - Turin 2023
@@MalignardI thought the same thing the names are so long
@@Malignard... bit those are the names of the actual units in the tabletop game... CA didn't just make these things up...
@@weaponizedlizardmen360 Do tell. Could you provide a link to the "The Things In The Woods" unit from the tabletop, please?
Bob the wendigo is a cool unit for kislev
From now on, my 1st if those will be named Robigo the Wendigo
Oh boy, I can't wait to reenact *The Ritual* on some unsuspecting chaos warriors!
It's going to happen!
Not sure if I'm a fan of adding a mortis engine effect to the new giant dude. It renders the Giant Bear useless like you said...
I am not so sure. The breath attack has a lot more up front damage, as well as the various slows, which makes it really difficult to disengage. The bear also seems a lot more durable.
The Incarnate is faster and has anti-large.
Giant bear should have like 1500 more HP (it has 10500) and some missile resist for 2200 gold. A Giant has better everything, more HP, same leadership (not unbreakable but may as well be), better melee stats, better WS, better charge bonus, 10 less speed. Doesn't have the phys resist but has missile resist, no frost aura or breath attack, but the kicker is it cost only 1500 gold!! 700 less than a bear. Bear is probably one of the worst monsters for its price, unfortunately.
@@robertsimon-kroppmanns7287 The bear is 1900 in MP(and Giant is 1400 MP).
Do not underestimate the power of the breath and slows. Decimating a unit of heavy infantry or cavalry in an instant, before they get to do any damage themselves, can have a huge impact(leadership, combat effectiveness etc.). Slowing enemies by more than 50% total so that they cant disengage from a bad fight/spell effects is also a strong abillity to have.
Giants are cheaper because they have fairly low armor(50) and are slow compared to most big monsters(39 speed) and bring 0 utility outside of Terror. 50 armor 15% missile resistance does not hold up to punishment compared to 90 armor and 25% physical resistance combined with healing.
@@fendelphi My mistake, pulling my stat information from the wiki as I'm at work and away from my home computer. 500 gold is still a big jump in price, all the debuffs and extra speed do go a long way. I've seen an ice bear charge do over 40% to a unit it wasn't targeting.
I find breath attacks on ground based monsters much less useful though, as you can't use them when engaged in melee, and ground units can't pick their engagements as well as flying units.
Also the physical resist and armour is good, but doesn't really compensate for all the stats it loses. Also doesn't help against magic attacks obviously.
Not saying the bear is terrible, but 1500 HP (for 12k) and 10% missile resist would go a long way for a monster so gigantic. It's not as tanky as it should be. It's a giant bear made of ice and stone, why does it have 20 melee defense?
@@robertsimon-kroppmanns7287 Dont use the wiki for stats. It is very inaccurate in general.
The Ghorgon is 2000 gold in MP. The Beastmen also have access to Giants(1400 gold), yet you rarely see the Giants used. Again, the reason is speed and durability. The Giant has a lot of health, but it is a massive and fairly slow missile magnet.
Similar case for the Elemental Bear when compared to the Giant. It is far more durable to missile fire, as it is faster and far tougher.
The low MD is almost meaningless, since it will be surrounded most of the time anyway(anyone hitting from behind only deals with 30% of the MD value). Having 30(which is the MD value of the Elemental Bear, which is the same as a Giant) or 35 would barely make a difference except when dueling other big things.
Personally, I find breath attacks much better on the ground. In the air, the angle means you need to do a lot of extra positioning to hit enough targets, which usually means a lot of extra micro and time, and firing from fairly far away(it is easier to dodge as well).
On the ground, it is more or less a flat trajectory, making it much easier to hit multiple models. And the Elemental Breath hits really hard(72 AP per projectile). A Hydra's Breath is 32 AP per projectile.
The Elemental Bear's durability is fine. It is really tough against non-magical attacks(which is the majority) and you can heal it.
And Unbreakable does matter. I have seen Giants flee from battle several times. It is actually not that uncommon, as they are really easy to damage with ranged attacks(which leads to massive leadership penalties).
Need the beastmen now for the Elemental + razorgors = Wendy and the baconator combo
Watch the stream from yesterday!
I ADORE the movie the ritual and I'm happy I'm not the only one who made that connection!! Thank you for the dlc sneak peek, I'm so hype 🙏
I swear I refreshed my TH-cam thinking I hope Turin posted a video! Low and behold you just posted! +1 Sir and excellent! Thank you!
0:47 It's a super cool and a bit nasty animation where she pulls out the rat from her mouth and dropping it into the couldron!
The new Kislev units look good, and maybe it's just me but thematically it's weird to see kossars fighting alongside a bunch of wood aberrations. I am not familiar with the lore though, so not sure how lore-friendly it is.
There is next to no lore on mother ostankya. And the incarnate elementals are essentially just incarnations of the wind of beasts
I kinda see them in a similar way to the Elemental Bear in that the land is rising up to repel invaders. While the bear is most certainly a manifestation of Ursun’s wrath, these creatures are likely that of Kislev, the Mother Land.
This theme may be a nod to the oft-memed history of invading armies being brought down through attrition trying to march into Russia by the cold and scarcity of resources between major cities.
I think it works, Kislev is supposed to be a bit more "primal" than the Empire or even Cathay, with deep connections to the woods and land etc. (not to mention the proximity to the chaos wastes is gonna and should make things a bit.... weirder)
I thought it was weird at first too, though
It could very well be kossars who are more for the old Kislevite ways, which were more attuned to the natural world and heeding the hag-witches’ wisdom. The Kislev we play currently (Katarin and Kostaltyn) fall more into the ‘reformed’ Kislev.
What would be most odd to me is tzar and ice guard fighting for Ostankya… unless you consider them turncoats I guess.
@@BobWaffleMan Yeah, let's see if I chance my mind after I play with them a little bit. Which will probably take a while as I am not planning on jumping in the new DLC until a price discount...
Thank you for doing these awesome battles with the dlc stuff love to see it!
Mama Stanky leg needs her scooter! LETS GO!!
I'm happy that kisliev and cathay got new unites but as a Norscan main PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF SIGMAR!!!!!!!!! please give us an updated or a free ll or something anything!
Feels weird seeing the new Kislev units up against Norsca considering that I initially mistook them for new Norscan units.
Yeah they don't really fit into kislev imo.
@@TheBarser they fit a hell of a lot better than they would in Norsca if you know even a tiny bit about Kislev and the Ungol Hags' lore. They're not big chaos fans, let's put it like that. Plus, they've always been part of Kislev, and embody both the ungols and the old forest spirits that have inhabited Kislev long before the gospodars moved in and formed the Kislevite tzardom. Some hags even have the power to become creatures known as ancient widows, which are embodiments of the mournful and vengeful spirits that inhabit Kislev, and it's sad that they weren't included in the DLC. The only part that doesn't really fit is that Mother Ostankya can use the full Kislev roster, although I guess that's just because of multiplayer. In the campaign you can get away with using just things in the woods, incarnates, rangers and maybe regular kossars since they're more Ungol than Gospodar, for a more thematic and lore-accurate army.
@joaogomes9405 I think they fit as there own faction. Its kinda weird seeing kislev as a human/beastmen hybrid faction like norsca
That's what i was thinking the entier time while watching this:"The Things in the Woods really reminde me of The ritual".
8:44 Well, I'm sure the furries are going to be VERY happy with this DLC!
It took me a moment to realize the thumbnail monster thing is actually a movie I watched a while ago xD
I would love to play this Dlc. It's such a shame how bad CA handles the community
Shoutout to ProfPwn for taking a beating so we get to see Turin play around with all the new toys!
Hey Turin, you’ve always said Kislev has good roots and only needs some dlc love to pull them together. Does this DLC give them what they need? Kislev will certainly appreciate the broader magic diversity
He said that kislev will probably be the best faction in the game on the stream
atleast i think i heard that
They will be top 3 EASY
I came here to see the new units in action, I had legit forgotten that domination mode was a thing lol
Very surprised the incarnate lived. Nice battle!
I think the Kislev Shades should have like 120 range... 150 on AP bows is bonkers.
Yeah, doesn't make sense for Russian wildmen to have higher range on their crossbows than tier 4 elite dark elf crossbows that ride in the frozen wastelands
Well if it's based on the auto Chinese crossbow, it makes sense.
@@Theanimeisforme Well I was talking about game balance... because now everyone will most likely spam the Kislev Shades
5:38 THEM BOYS BE FLYING
Armored Kossars definitely need a missile damage nerf. Even the +50 gold increase didn't really slow them down after the extra entities were added. The fact they outdamage Ice Guard (who I hope got some melee buffs in addition to the additional -50 cost) on a per volley basis is nutty.
Akshina rangers need to lose AP in melee it seems. Might also need a price increase (personally I think Streltsi could also stand to be slightly cheaper and have the same range as every other rifle unit, so that may also factor into making both viable).
Not sure the Incarnate completely displaces the bear but it's certainly close. I think the breath attack has some potential benefits if you can set it up against high value infantry but whether that's enough is unclear.
Ice Guards deal more damage against infantry(since their arrows penetrate). They also have far longer range and the slowing utility.
Armored Kossars might get 1 volley off before being charged themselves. Their shooting is opportunistic at best.
Akshina Rangers have decent damage(roughly the same as Streltsi), but lacks the same durability(low armor). Might be slightly overtuned, but we have to see more of them in action to really judge.
The Bear's breath, slows and durability have their merits. The Incarnate has speed and Anti-large. The Incarnate rarely wants to stay in a melee grind for long(it is more like a shock attack piece), so the Mortis effect has limited application.
@@fendelphi Ice Guard don't deal more damage to infantry actually. Did a bunch of testing and the pen change added basically 0 damage. The arc of the arrow means they hit one unit and then the ground unfortunately. On straight shooting units it's a huge buff but for arcs it does nothing. The range and slowing is also much less useful than it sounds since most factions just counter shoot you with cheap units which shred the Ice Guard. The fact they suck in melee by price is just the icing on the cake.
And I don't know how many games you've watched, Armored Kossars pretty consistently get 2 to 3 volley's off (out of 6), which do enough damage to shred unshielded targets. Approaching Kislev on live is much, much harder because of how hard you get punished for closing into range. The fact that they're then longbeards in melee makes them absurdly powerful for a 700 cost unit.
Akshina rangers are squishier, but have vanguard, stalk, and better range. At the same price it's a complete no brainer, though I think this has more to do with Streltsi being kind of expensive at 850 for what you get. Most rifle units are around 200 gold cheaper and Streltsi melee isn't worth +200 gold.
Agreed on the bear.
@@spellbound1875 Depends on the arc(relative positions and distance), but it does deal more damage. Firing down hill against an enemy trying to run up it will ensure a lot of value. Same on a flat area at close range.
Of course, if you place them behind your frontline in a way that they have to arc a bit more, the penetration bonus will stop having a big impact.
I have seen Ice Guards break up infantry formations long before they reach your lines multiple times, but cant really say the same for the Armored Kossar(and I use them a lot).
Armored Kossars get 2-3 volleys off, if they are firing against slow moving targets that tries to get someplace else(like a unit next to them or further behind). Against units with a moderate amount of speed(35+) that charges directly at them, they usually only get 1 full volley off, with maybe half a volley extra before getting into melee. Again, terrain might allow you an extra volley here and there.
Regardless, 2-3 volleys is still nothing compared to the 6-7 volleys you can potentially get from the Ice Guard.
So Ice Guards can get counter-fired, which according to you makes them vulnerable compared to Armoured Kossars(which is true to a certain degree), but when it comes to Streltsi and Ambushers, it is not an important factor?
Ice Guards outrange a lot of skirmish units, while Armoured Kossars do not. That is one factor here. The other being that Ice Guard survivability against counter-fire is not that bad, as they do have 50 armor and 88 health per model(while Armored Kossars have 82 health per model).
By comparison, the Streltsi has roughly the same health as the Ambusher(I think it is 1 hp difference per model) and only 10 less range, but has more than double the armor value, much faster projectiles and better accuracy. They will actually hit targets reliably at their max range, while the Ambushers will not, meaning they will trade much better with other ranged units.
As for the price of Streltsi, most gunpowder units do not have 70 armor and 30 seconds of Unbreakable, while dishing out AP damage in melee. Fleshhounds of Khorne lose to Streltsi in melee.
The only unit they really compare to, is the Dwarf Thunderers(at 700) which is far worse in melee and has overall less ranged firepower(as they have fewer models but same missile damage profile).
I dont think they are overcosted, when it is really difficult to remove them without taking a lot of damage in return.
@@fendelphi 1. I've done a lot of testing with Ice Guard and I've not been able to produce the results you are indicating. Even if in some circumstances that is possible it's clearly not consistent which is a major issue for a unit that is quite expensive and very poor in melee for the price.
2. Armored Kossar damage per missile is literally higher than the damage per Ice Guard shot. They also have more AP damage per shot (7 vs 6). They also have 20 more entities further multiplying the damage. They literally do more damage on a per volley basis. Even with less volleys the damage is much closer than it should be. And that's before we account for cost and melee capacity. There's a reason Armored Kossars get spammed over Ice Guard, a fact made worse when you remember the range cap makes them either or units.
3. Counter shooting definitely applies to the Streltsi vs Akshina comparison, it just favors Akshina. Stalk, arc of fire, and greater range make them harder to counter shoot safely. Additionally the high AP damage means some of the biggest problem units (armored crossbows) are substantially less effective at counter shooting them. Again when looking at the limited number of ranged units available for factions as a whole Streltsi don't have a place. Additionally I have no idea where the accuracy comparison is coming from, nothing I've seen suggests a meaningful accuracy difference between any of the units beyond calibration areas rewarding longer range slightly.
4. Streltsi compared to other gunpowder unit is less favorable than you think. As you highlight Thunderers are the obvious comparison at 150 less, but you understate the defensive difference (+10 armor and bronze shields makes them much harder to counter shoot) and overstate the melee gains (Streltsi are significantly better offensively but matched defensively which has some serious anti-synergy with a missile unit). I'll also note the range, accuracy, and calibration area differences make dawi notably more accurate which compensates somewhat for the entity difference. Also they have 2 more potential volleys which is not nothing. I'd pick thunderers any day over Streltsi who suffer pretty heavily when cycle charged by most targets and are much easier to counter shoot with arced missiles. I would argue you overstate the value gained by their melee prowess when they pay such a premium.
Mind you I think they would just need something like -50. They're just a touch pricey for what you get, totally usable but with the ranged caps not easily competitive.
everybody gangsta till momma go STANK
Can’t watch it now because I’m at work, but I had to swing by and give a like for the Ritual thumbnail.
id have paid money too see Wulfrik instantly thrown from the saddle as soon as the Incarnate came in.
Even if the lore is accurate its so weird to see the witch her horrors in the same faction as the kislev organized army.
Hey Turin , did they redo the Beast magic visuals? , I am assuming that theyre doing one Lore per update
the new beast seems really squishy compaired to an enlemental bear
Right? Wow its points went down. Make sure a Patriarch accompanies it.
While the new kislev units are cool, it feels weird making kislev into a monster faction. It's like this kislev dlc should be it's own faction
It's the lore
Lore of Fire has some surprisingly good buff spells.
Why would you ever take streltsi if you get armour piercing archers?
Because of much better armor and direct fire weaponry? Different unit for a different role.
Is the generic hag a hero or lord pick?
Hero
Hero!
Should Norsca take trolls in this matchup? They're cheaper, more durable, hit harder compared to skin wolves. They aren't as fast, but you've got poison dogs and ice wolves if you need to pin something down.
Yes, they'd be great
the beasts unit logo looks like something from the witcher 3
Paywalling Ostankya behind Tzeentch and Cathay garbage is infuriating. Glad to see you streaming her, tho T. Love your work.
1:05 fellow rat-brothers turn your gaze away
The Ambushers having high AP in melee seems overtuned, I'm not sure how the exact stats and costs compare but I don't think a gunpowder faction should have stalking archer units comparable to Waywatchers and Shades. I expected them to be more beefier Huntsmen with Poison or something.
The repeated misnaming of the Incarnate Elemental of Beasts is slowly driving me insane
Elemental Bear a victim of power creep. Man that thing sucks.
Some Witcher vibes with this Kislev dlc 👌
Can you show us the updated visual effects of light and beasts?
Rudolf the Red Death reindeer!
Love the thumbnail
INCARNATE ELEMENTAL OF BEASTS! THAT'S THE WORD ORDER!
Akshina ambushers are too good, why should you ever take Streltsi instead? For the same price Akshina have more range, more speed, more damage and stalk (and can also shoot over units); Streltsi in return have only +40 armor... Also that 25 seconds net with 3 uses on the RoR version is ridicolous... CA can you give us some balance plz?
"only +40 armor". So you take roughly half as much return damage on Streltsi compared to the Akshina Ambushers. Akshina Ambushers will take severe damage against all kinds of ranged fire and any form of melee attack. They will probably lose to basic hound units. Streltsi win those fights.
Also, direct fire weapons have some advantages(and some drawbacks) compared to bows, especially when dealing with smaller single entities and fast moving targets.
The units serve different roles. Streltsi are a mainline fighting force, while the Ambushers are, well, ambushers. Also, I havent had a look at the specific AP values of the Ambushers, but they probably do not have as high AP ratio as the Streltsi.
@@fendelphi You have a good point on projectiles vs bow attacks (fast projectiles and stun vs small units). Hovewer regarding the armor the difference is not that much as you suggest: 30 armor is on average 22.5 damage reduction Vs normal damage, while 70 is on average 52.5 damage reduction Vs normal damage, so exactly a 30% difference (not half damage), also consider that even the most non penetrating weapon has a penetrating part of damage (at least 1/6 of the dmg). So lets say 25% less damage in exchange for more damage, speed, range and stalk...
@@zaibakk9072 and 52.5 is more than double of 22.5, is it not?
@@fendelphi yes but you dont take half return damage you take 25% less damage
@@zaibakk9072 Ok, I will reword it then. The Streltsi negates more than twice as much damage as the Ambushers does.
Should stresli get a melee buff and maybe anti infantry to further distinguish them from the new crossbow boys.
I found kislev to be a bit boring before this dlc mainly the Legendary Lords and lack of variety in non infantry, I think this is exactly what it needs to be a fun, good and interesting faction to play.
Does Norsca ever win? I can't remember seeing a battle where they won.
All these mortis engine effects is a huge nerf to khorne. Theyre going to have to give them some massive buffs to keep them competive in any setting
Just kill the mortis engine, problem solved
rest in peace warhammer
I honestly feel like neither things in the woods nor the beast incarnates fit with kislev like really. It fits for a lot of factions otherwise, wood elves, beastmen, dark elves, norsca actually but not kislev. You would either have to make a kislevite version with snow fx and white fur or something or you would have to give kislev more units that fit with the deep dark northern forests vibe that the dlc is going for. A melee infantry unit with even more of that theme than the drushina for example, like people with deerskins and rock weapons, skyrim forsworn basically. Yknow, make that part of the faction more solidified.
Whats your opinion on the big F*** Y** CA gave its player base regarding the new DLC?
You can see my previous streams, price is too high, simple as.
I meant their published half assed excuse for the high price
More like Mother OsDANKya, amirite, boys!?
She's so cool!
Man, I think they messed up big time by not making Mother Ostanka a kislev lord, leading an army of reskinned barbarians!!!
The things in the woods just dont fit in with Kislev too me.
Like, Skin Wolves, Ice Wolves, Mammoths, Trolls, Giants, Wyverns, all feel like they fit right in with this new lord!! And then like I said, you reskin the marauder infantry and replace their berserk ability with kislev's 'by our blood' ability.
Think of what a sweet and unusual order ally this lord could be!!!
I'm not sure about adding her too the Kislev main roster in multiplayer either. The army doesn't look consistent anymore.
awesome! ^^
I hope that the empire dlc will not have so few new staff,Shadow of change is so low quality
50' tall monster walks right through a formation of its own troops, didn't do any damage. 🤦♂️
So Gulyas only heals units for 1.84% HP over 23 seconds? That's got to be the most worthless heal in the game
Hmm, maybe. On one hand, 0.8% would make more sense, but on the other, it has no limit on number of units affected, and it also increases morale and fatigue, and it is not a spell(no WoM cost).
I guess it should be 0.8% and then CA just have to make sure that the ability has a gold cost to match.
@@fendelphi +4 morale doesn't really matter a ton for Kislev either.
Maybe the vigor would be nice if it has a pretty short cooldown or if it's pretty cheap to bring
Turin i love ya man, but u havent said the name of the Incarnate Elemental of Beasts right once in one of ur videoes lmao. u keep saying elemental incarnate of beasts, or some variations lolll, incarnate of elemental beasts is hard to hear over and over. just a thought
kislev healing is just so lame.
poor profpwn is getting pwned on every game we see .
The Incarnate looks kinda lame, but can't put my finger on why exactly. Maybe the model's quality isn't up to par
imo the walk animation looks a bit half-assed. It doesn't really sell the weight of the creature. It looks like it's coming over to help you move some boxes, not hustling around a battlefield.
the monster Kislev units feel so out of place
Gg
Im soo disappointed with CA 😢
Ye Kislev didnt need thoes buffs!They where a strong faction without it
Что за имена дебильные...мать ОСТАНЬКЯ?жесть
"They have a bit of nuance to make them unique" like the new units being cheaper and better
Oh neat Turin is showing off the overpriced DLC.
people complaining about the price of this DLC but I'm happy to pay $25 to watch mother stank pull a rat out of her gullet to drop in a cauldron
@@xBlackInstinctto each their own then, I'll be enjoying the DLC come next week instead of wallowing in a never ending circle jerk of rage
@@mwolf7218 Everything cost more. A lot of new titles are priced at 70 or 80 now. Makes sense that DLCs follows this trend to some extend. That is just how inflation works.
And to be honest, the content I have seen so far is pretty good. Several cool units for each faction, great Legendary lords.
My only issue is that it is bundled in a big pack. I wouldnt mind paying 8€ for the Kislev part and another 8€ for the Grand Cathay one. But I have no real interest in Tzeentch, even if I think the lord and units themselves look cool.
@@mwolf7218 Thanks for responding rationally and respectfully but I feel the resentment being hurled at CA is more than just a "bit" of rage. People are attaching their emotions onto this issue and working themselves into a feverish tirade of anger. Now people are so enraged that they are now looking for any such thing to channel their anger. I see comments about how CA is some predatory company and how the game is terrible. I mean this couldn't be further from the truth, the game is awesome and their are far worse companies out there pushing $20 skins and lootboxes. Perhaps this was the straw that broke the camel's back, but I just get so tired of the endless anger and negativity. If you're unhappy with the DLC, that's fine, you don't have to buy it. I'm not exactly thrilled about the price increase either, but to flock to Reddit and TH-cam and Discord and where ever else to bitch and moan about a $5 increase over Champion's of Chaos is just tiresome. If you want to protest, don't buy it ... that's the best thing you can do.
@@mwolf7218 It does not really offer less. Chaos Dwarf DLC would only ever be interesting if you want to play that specific faction. And while you do get 3 LL there, it is all also with the same faction same faction mechanics and more or less the same area and overall gameplay, so in terms of gameplay diversity, you dont get "that much extra".
SoC DLC brings 3 LL, 1 special hero, and 31 units in total from what I have read. That is roughly the same size as some of the smaller factions, like Tomb Kings, Ogre Kingdoms or Norsca. But you get to use it in very different ways(location, unit diversity and faction mechanics) and adds a lot of new flavour to the core factions.
If it had been 8€ per faction sold individually, I think it would have been a fair price.
It makes me want to play the new LL of the faction at least once, as well as one of the original lords with the new units at least once. So for 8€ per faction, I would say I will get my money's worth.
first
can you throw me a land battle for old times sake. Miss you and it.
no deer cavalry for kislev...
no artillery for kislev...
no flying for kislev...
press like F for FAIL
How dare a faction have weaknesses
Deer cavalry sounds cool but maybe a little redundant. Not every faction needs every type of unit, Kislev shouldn't be an artillery faction and doesn't need flying units
@@mwolf7218that doesn’t mean they need them
A land known for their Blizzards probably should not have a big focus on artillery and flying units. They got some Stalkers and Monstrous Infantry now.
@@fendelphiyeah it's not like russia used to make the largest cannons ever
Stop supporting this dlc.