ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 ก.ย. 2024
- For today's archetype discussion I wanna talk about Multi Jumpers in Smash and why they collectively struggle to be successful as an archetype, despite having theoretically one of the most broken resources to have in a platform fighting game.
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#SSBU #Characters #Archetypes
Fun Fact: Apparently Piranha Plant was going to be a multi-jumper, but they removed it before the character released. You can still find his third jump animation in the game's files and if memory serves you can even see it in World Of Light thanks to the skill tree
I wonder how much his placement on the tier list would change with the third jump
It was actually in the game but it was removed with the day 1 patch that happened
@@kevcopo3 spots
With the Smash tools mod you can modify certain characters stats such as increasing the amount of jumps they can do. Doing so with any character will make them t-pose since they don’t have animations for more jumps, except Piranha Plant whose animation works perfectly when enabling a triple jump.
IIRC adding jumps with Spirits doesn’t use the extra animation it just repeats the same animation as double-jump.
We don't know for sure if it was intended to be the 3rd jump or just another animation for double jump but seeing as how they designed the character behind the verticality being very good and if the game does use that different jump for WoL's skill tree like how you're mentioning then who knows
I think the thing that a lot of players forget is that when it comes to mobility and speed, what matters most in Smash Bros is being snappy. It's not if u can go from Point A-B, but if you zoom straight over to their
, it's why despite Mewtwo being "fast" in practice, he doesn't move like one
It's also why a recovery going very high and far (like with Kirby) doesn't automatically make it a good recovery.
@@YoshiAteTooManyYoshiCookies kirby's recovery doesn't even go that high or far due to crappy jump height and crappy air speed
Huh? That title is misleading. Only DEDEDE and KIRBY can suck...
Loo
I meant lol
I think the fact that the best of them are mid and/or no results and nothing higher is more telling.
@@Krona-fb4dnpuff meta knight pit are not mid lol
@@Krona-fb4dnThis dude didn’t get the joke
Steve might as well be a multi-jump character.
I was thinking the same thing 😂
Or infinite jumper if you... You know... Do THAT.
64 Kirby, Melee Jigglypuff, and Brawl Meta Knight: "Are we jokes to you?"
I mean, that's his argument - every multi-jumper that's been good has felt unfair to play against, making them really difficult to balance.
Wario, shown throughout the video, is a "sneaky multijumper", courtesy of the Bike that, when used in the air, effectively counts as two rather powerful air jumps - one more horizontal, the other vertical. Honorable mention also goes to Wario Waft that _also_ works like a jump. And even with his great air speed, he is counterbalanced by the short range on his attacks and all the limitations his jump-like moves impose on him when used (not much actual buttons when on bike, Waft requiring charging to the point you can see just about 5 throughout a long battle if well-prepared for and half-charged and even that, they are better off as fake Rest than as "just" an additional jump).
I think you just really like Wario
I think the characters with multi jumps have low jump height which makes it a bit harder to escape disadvantage or bad air speed / acceleration unless you're jigglypuff. At least puff can weave in and out of things due to her good air speed but if you're someone like dedede or kirby their air speeds are horrendous allowing them to be easily swatted out of the air until they out of resources. Pit and MK are ok with the multiple jumps because MK has four recovery moves and Pit has orbitars and arrow to have a decent disadvantage.
That’s right. Multi-jumpers all have shorter than average jumps (except for their initial jump which is normal). The only exception is Sephiroth whose double and triple-jump go as high as his initial jump.
The fact that the Pits have more jumps than Ridley when they can't even fly on their own is baffling
Yeah both Ridley and Charizard should have had another extra jump imo.
I'll put it this way. Atm the best multijumper is, outside the anomaly that Steve is, Pit/Pittoo because they can shield in the air, which should tell you how mediocre they are. The reason they suck is because they're balanced with casual setting in mind, where people are awful at recovery and juggling, therefore the strenghts of jumping multiple times is noticeable there. Also, because how awful was to deal with multijumpers from 64 to Brawl (Puff, Kirby, Meta Knight), therefore now they're overcorrected... Then they release Steve's blocks.
I would say meta knight is better, only thing holding him back imo is time, and that he’s hard and thus not worth the effort.
Nah they don't suck there just flawed most of them are good
@@Krona-fb4dn Agree. I think meta knight has the biggest potential.
lowkey tho mk air mobility is not holding him back; its the fact that the character needs to hit specific confirms at specific percents to take a stock. He just has too much trouble dealing damage and killing outside his bridges, ladders, and edgeguards. Edgeguarding should never be your main way of killing. Even on lucas, for example, probably the best edgeguarder in the game, edgeguarding isnt the main way. He has multiple powerful kill moves and kill throws that make killing consistent. Edgeguarding is only a way to bs stocks early.
Slick dissing Puff
Idk who told you Lucas was the best edgeguarder in game
@@jeffbell9129 vars. But also a pk thunder
@@electricssb that cant be right. He is the best at 2 framing not edgeguarding. The best at edgeguarding gotta be Min Min or Pika or even MK
I'd agree, when meta knight didn't have this problem they were broken (for sake of simplicity glide isn't something that affected his power). But yeah, meta knight only suffers from having no consistency in combos due to needing extreme precision and basically a spreadsheet worth of knowledge on just 0-30%, let alone the whole range of what average players would get to
They really should get rid of the Pits multiple jumps and give them a single bigger midair jump(plus fits Pit canonically) while improving their air physics.
Edit: also, Little Mac's Up B goes far when uses on the ground but loses his Up B the moment his feet leave the ground. That's just messed up...
The real crime is the fact that his side B doesn't come back until he touches ground.
It's thematically appropriate for Little Mac, his ground moves are beastly and his air moves are trash for a very realistic reason - footwork and support are just as important as your upper body strength in boxing. On the ground, he can use his legs to maneuver and boost his power, so he hits hard and Up Bs crazy high, but he loses all of it in the air.
Multiple Jumpers can’t be that bad, Remember brawl Meta Knight? Also some multi jumpers have it because they can in their home series. Like imagine if Kirby had a regular double jump, it wouldn’t feel right
if thats the case Ridley should have more jumps, he rarely touches the ground in most metroid games he appears in as a boss.
Yeah I remember brawl meta knight. I remember him completely shattering all conceptions of balance as well.
It still amazes me even after I stopped playing smash your videos ALWAYS are a top priority. You have amazing quality and I really hope you keep doing this because you have a great captivating skill
Pythra with 3 jumps... one can only dream
Yeah a nightmare
Come on bro I think having all the most broken special moves in the game is enough already
In short; If every Multi-jumpers had good air speed they could wall of pain WAY too well so it would not be fun
Another problem with multi jumpers is that they can’t use multiple jumps quickly the way single jumpers can. If Kirby could do an IDJ with his jumps he could probably combo with up tilt better. It would also make their recoveries better since they would be a lot less predictable
Great video, but I kinda disagree and here's why > With the current state of smash, I don't really believe the double jumps are as broken as you make them out to be because the S tier characters just don't care or play the same game. Kazuya doesn't get most of his kills with edge guards, he just murders straight in the middle of the stage. Steve doesn't kill with mainly edge guards, he just out-hitboxes and walls you into terrible situations. Sonic doesn't have to edge guard you to win, you have to come to him to win > IE: If you gave Chrom or Link, or Lucina an extra jump, I still believe they would lose to Kazuya because they die after their first interaction on stage. They don't even get to the edge to use the jump, that's just not how the game works anymore -
I don't support this puff hate, top ten character trust 🙏
I think puff is top 50 and I will die on that hill
No troll puff is in the top half of the roster
Realest thing I've read all day
Actually, 🤓☝🏻Bayonetta does have a third jump if you do a perfect jump cancel.
What happens when you give a multi-jumper too many concessions: you get Brawl Meta Knight, lol
yeah remember when pit was s tier when the game first came out, I don’t even remember if that was true but I heard it so long ago it just feels right
I don't think it would hurt to give the Kirby cast a little more mobility...
Dedede especially REALLY bothers me. He's slow as heck and feels like a rock. I know he's supposed to be a heavyweight, and the joke is that he's _fat,_ but seriously... In the actual Kirby games the dude can LITERALLY HOVER, why does he feel like a rock? I hate it. I've grown up playing Kirby games, and Dedede is significantly more mobile in the actual Kirby games. I would rather he be a more medium-heavy character and die easier than for him to play the way he does. His midair jumps _feel_ awful in a way that's hard to explain. Like trying to swim but you have a ball and chain attached to your ankle.
The problem is his air speed, its just like that in the kirby games.
What's interesting about multi jumpers is that they can only jump another time after their last mid-air jump animation finished, it's also the reason when you are metal, their jumps is essentially useless.
"Why they all suck" is a CRAZY title when Pit exists 😂
I feel like the only reason a fun and powerful multijumper is so rare is simply because balancing a character with that level of mobility to not be meta warping is just obnoxiously difficult that it isn't worth it unless you had a huge amount of time to workshop them
Now do slow/floaty jumpers next
Fair points as someone who's played a lot of Single Player mode especially Spirits if you know what your doing in terms of off stage edge guarding "Multi Jumpers" can dominate in most matches, fitting as I myself love aggressive edge guarding especially off stage. If you want my opinion almost every series should have characters with Multi Jumps with the exception of Kirby and Pokémon since a lot of their character do it naturally, I can see most series having 1 or 2 max maybe 3 if the devs get creative.
Interesting video! This definitely shines like on the shortcomings many multi jumpers have to face. Jigglypuff shows what a heavy tax a character has to pay to have multiple jumps along with good air speed. For better or worse the devs do have to keep their overall mobility reigned in.
That said I really don’t think it would be that tough to make a lot of them more effective for what their are. Many of them could be effective with their current mobility if they just get their *moveset* tweaked in the right way. Let’s take Kirby for instance. This year Kirbies have already shown the potential he has even at big majors/supermajors after all the buffs he got. Imo he’s a mid tier just one good update away from being high tier. Even with his bad jump height, if you did something as simple as make certain moves like D-Air start slightly faster his already great state becomes more potent in spite of the jump in a manner not too far off from Kazuya. Not to mention other stuff like addressing projectile swallow. The updates showed how much they could improve Kirby without needing to break his physics and just a bit more could just hand him even more success.
Multi jumpers definitely have to be kept in check but I am confident a majority of them just need a certain touch up on a few moves here or there to become serious threats in spite of bad verticality.
Anakin been real quiet since this video dropped...
Really kept it 100 with that title 😂
Well, Meta Knight and Pit are both mid-tiers, so they don't "suck". They are decent
Jigglypuff, ridley, and banjo are also mid tiers and most mid tier in this game are good
@@Mike-di3mo I thought Ridley was low tier?
@@Tocaraca he's C tier
Multiple jumps are good but the characters they're on are not often characters to exploit said factor or are strangely balanced around not being "too good" in the air.
Platforms also allow for combo extensions that are basically the entire benefit of an extra jump and are used by characters that would be *wayyy* too good if they had another jump naturally. Just, without the negatives. I find this kinda strange since Smash doesn't really have much consistency on balancing around a character's traits. Samus makes a tradeoff with ground speed and floaty physics with poor landing, but she makes up for it with extremely strong zoning, advantage, and serviceable combos. Jigglypuff trades weight, ground speed, mediocre grounded normals and an entire recovery move slot for just being good in the air with multiple jumps, but Samus is *leagues* ahead of where Jigglypuff is on the tierlist despite giving up less for more IMO.
Characters like Pit and Banjo may have more jumps than the likes of someone like Mario or Falcon, but because their airspeed is drastically worse than the latter two, they don't really have a net gain from said jumps or even get a much higher apex than them. This is also assuming these jumps come into play.
Honestly, multijumpers should be the archtype of aerial combat. This could be offset by giving multijumpers a bad ground game. A multijumper in my opinion should excel at air combos with having little to no ground combos or any real kill moves other than smash attacks of course but even then their smash attacks should only kill at some of the highest % of the roster. You could even throw in weak grabs/throws if it was needed to make multijumpers live that fantasy. I think that would be the way to balance them. Meaning if you get combo'd in the air then you are rewarded because you should technically be able to move someone further and more percisely. Sadly thats not really the case other than Jigglypuff as I find her to be the only multijumper to really live that fantasy.
You can make a multijumper a high tier. Ridley would be super scary if he had just one more jump.
Honestly as a Ridley main, I'm not so sure if he would be suddenly amazing with one more jump.
-Awful disadvantage
-Still has a lot of "meh" moves like side b or dsmash
-Bad shield pressure
He would be much better, but Ridley's problem is he only has a bit of everything, not *enough* in everything.
No, ridley needs more reward off his pokes to be good
Multi-Jumpers are broken in concept. In the first 3 games, there were multi-jump top tiers (Kirby, Jigglypuff, meta knight). Most of the Multi-Jumpers we have now started at minimum high tier, except for a rare few. I feel like the inclusion of better recoveries in 4, and also the devs figuring out how to balance around them made multi-jumpers worse. I do agree with most of what you said in the video, but I just wanted to point out I think it was a purposeful balancing decision cause of previous games in the series.
I don't think this title is accurate, therefore I'm commenting about it
Straight up, if sephiroth started with one wing he would be a top 10 character
I remember D3stiny made a community post about it one time. Simply put they over value multi-jumps. I think you made good reasons on the video but you also have to consider the inverse as well. The only reason why minmin, chrom, Aegis, cloud, and other characters aren't stray up tiers above the rest is because of their recovery. Which seems to be the biggest way nintendo balances them out, so the less recovery you have the more busted they make you. Only execption is little mac but that is more to due with lack of airels than jump.
I will say this as a Banjo player; I've tricked plenty of people to drop their shields and "do something" by fast falling and instead of landing, do the third jump, then I f-air
Also Banjo sucks, buff banjo, I just want one buff, just make forward air come out faster, literally just that, and I think he can go up a tier, he sucks where I have to work around his kit but I make it work
To make everyone cry give min min a extra jump
I think brawl meta knight is a good example of an overtuned multi jumper.
A talking point of this video was on how making other characters multi jumpers could break them. I think that statement is false to a degree as it assumes the jumps are balanced as the only one they have like one wing. If we gave Chrom 6 jumps but his jumps were replaced by Dedede jump heights it would not be all that good. It would be beyond broken if you got a duplicate of Chrom’s second jump.
In that vein I think that here 11:09 “that can’t be allowed to be good”. Is also a bit extreme the advantage of additional jumps is compensated for in the terrible innate physics of their jumps past the first. Or including the first if you have 6 jumps. As such further compensating by detracting from air physics is bad form. It mitigates the strengths of additional jumps by removing the ability to position yourself with them. Sure the arguments of if X character had Y thing they would be better hold true but that is not because multi jumps are the problem. In Kirdy’s case you can’t give him the tools he has now and a good air game because his buttons are all amount the best bit the game even with his awful stats. Pit would be better with Palu physics but that is because Palu physics are just flatly better than his, most character multi jump or not would be better with Palu numbers. Just think of Pali Incin or Palu Robin. That less a dig at multi jumping as a mechanic and more so pointing out the importance of mobility. That argument stands with equivalents that have multi jumps. Like again Incin but fast, or Mewtwo but no tail hurtbox. Or some other adjacent thought, like Robin’s bottom 5 over all physics.
As for a high tier multi jumper that feels fair to fight. Just imagine Pit with higher numbers on his moves. Not better physics just numbers. His combos get 5-10% more damage his kill windows are shifted from 120+ down to 95+ or something that would not suddenly make him frustrating to fight because he is still strait forward and relatively teleagraphed.
They may not be top tier, but oh boy… they sure are some of the most annoying characters to fight against 😢
Whenever, I play sephiroth against kirby I die a little bit inside, because Kirby is tiny. But that might be more of a sephiroth problem than anything.
Sephiroth is definitely not known for stellar performances either
cloud and little mac do really need another dj
Let Mac have it not Cloud he’s chillin lol. If anything Ganon needs it more than him. Or if you wanna make another swordie broken af give it to Chrom
make the second jump an actual double jump and youll see how good theyl become. thats wha happened with sephiroth. he get to have a full double jump before his third shorter one.
i feel like comparing banjos air speed to cloud with max limits airspeed is a little unfair
Varss how tf do you make multiple videos a week on 3 accounts? respect bro
So, low tiers here are just too fair? that means high tiers are broken
its because they made dedede slow as shit without compensating for damage at all
Kirby do be suckin alright 😊
Never thought of it like that. Mk is ok and pit is ok, but they really aren’t good. Maybe it’s because I’m melee puff is good and I’m brawl, you know.
Pit is high tier and Meta Knight has a lot of winning MUs against good characters. Palu, ROB, Min Min, Lucina. While Pit has strong tools as Zackray and Earth has proven
Pit is no where near high tier. I don't know what you are on but the pits are way too balanced to even make it out of mid tier. Zackray and Earth haven't proven anything but that they are good players with decent results. That and Zackray is still pulling out Rob more for his harder match ups. Please stop the glazing
Most multi jumpers are good, just flawed
@ogxh0018 pit is definitely high tier at this point , literally one of the characters that has managed to stay in the meta more than a year at this point while other incredible players have gotten worse and worse results overtime like hero ( the bowser ) and skyjay , I could name more but for the sake of simplicity , gonna leave it like that because those two characters are usually group with pit at least by NA standards , also I would call getting top 8 at super majors “decent “ that’s incredible results , also the fact that Zackray uses another character for MUs he believes are better as rob , shouldn’t represent a certain character weakness but more like the volatile MUs ultimate has , come on , even acola is using another character as THE BEST character in the game
And he literally just used rob more this time , he got 4th with the bracket he got , while last kagaribi where he used like 95% pit , he got 5th
@@ogxh0018 Ehh, is debatable. He's the best multijumper, but that only points out how mediocre multijumpers are, that its best member is an arguably 7/10.
First, amazing video!!! Now I understand
Should have mentioned wrastor from rivals of aether
Jiggly puff in melee has multiple jumps but shes still not too op
I'm not trying to be 'that girl' but bayo does have 3 jumps if you land both witch twists and both abk's then buffer a jump... she just doesn't have anything in her kit that she can use to add to the combo with the 3rd jump
It's just both witch twists, you don't need abk to get the triple jump
Who do yall think the best and worst multi jumper is then
Ngl I hate multi-jumpers they’re are so annoying considering I use to play Pit but he was so fun in brawl and smash 4 lol jigglypuff am looking at you 👀
3:20 Aegis is top 5. and would be top 1 with a third jump lol
i honestly think meta knight is pretty good and might be a high tier
Disagree
Bro, you already made a video about my main Kirby being bad. Don't keep doing this to me. 😫😫😫
imaginr lucas had another jump, then you could tjcz
Kirby main 4 life.
Good video!
Bayonetta with three jumps actually can't do three Witch Twists, per World of Light.
She's an interesting case study though, since she's sort of a pseudo multijumper due to jump cancel Witch Twists.
3:19 “some characters would literally become top 5 if they had a third jump”
I think they would all become *top 1* if they had a third jump, or if all 3 of them did at once they would share the top 3 spots. Also, I feel like most people believe that Aegis (and maybe also Cloud) are already top 5. Obviously everyone has different opinions and I may be biased since I’m an Aegis main but I do think Aegis is slightly overrated, but nonetheless saying they are lower than top 10 is just wrong.
Pit, banjo, and ridely all have higher placements than seph.
Isn't puff higher then ridley?
@@Mike-di3mo ridley top 8'd a Mexican tournament recently, I think puff has only had good placements in online events.
@bakedbuninvasion
Yeah, screw Bassmage's Offline Results...
@@bakedbuninvasion puff has top 8ed alot of offine events and is higher on the tier list then ridley
@@user-be3qc7re9o but was it a major? They don't count invitational events for rank anymore fyi.
Yooo!