Being Accused of Cheating at MTG
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 มิ.ย. 2022
- That time someone got really upset at me for letting my opponent miss their triggers. Come with me, on an adventure.
#MTG #MagicTheGathering #Cheating
Pick up MTG singles and sealed product from Cool Stuff Inc - use the code KENOBI at checkout to get 5% off your order! Check them out here: www.coolstuffinc.com/
You can sign up, support me, and get involved through here:
/ pleasantkenobi
If you liked the video, take a moment to show your love and adoration by clicking on that like button, and ensuring that you are subscribed to the channel! Share the video with your friends if they have yet to experience the splendor of PleasantKenobi! The more people that see it, the less likely I am to cease to exist!
Check out my channel for more MTG, video games and humour: / pleasant. .
Tweet me, follow me and love me over on Twitter: / pleasantkenobi
Come and join the FB community by following the FB page at: / pleasantkenobi - เกม
So there was a point in time where that player was correct and missing a trigger like Pyromancer would cause both players to get a penalty. However, at the point in time where this story takes place, the Missed Trigger rules were significantly relaxed and you were in the right as they were non-detrimental triggers.
I'd would say this is how the rules were read, but not in the spirit of the rules. If it had been one trigger, or something that both players had missed and then kenobi realized later but then enough of the turn had past that mentioning it wasn't reasonable, then it would be more understandable. I'm not saying Kenobi cheated, but what I will say is that this rule was later changed so that both players were responsible for remembering triggers that aren't may triggers. Ideally, if I was Kenobi, I might have let the first trigger be missed, but once I realized the mistake was going to happen again, I would try to remind my opponent of their trigger, as letting it happen again would be something you could capitalize on. Again, there is a big difference between intentionally cheating and not reminding your opponents how to play their deck. Also, had kenobi not personally come forward and said anything, there would be absolutely no way to prove he had done this. An actual cheater would have said nothing, or when suggested he had done this, just refuted it. The only way to prove that someone cheated this way is for them to *admit* that they knew about the triggers. At the very least, letting your opponent know to tighten up their gameplay after a match doesn't seem malicious. EDIT: oh another thing I wanted to mention is that there are actually times where your opponent missing their trigger helps them more than it helps you. If Kenobi's gameplan had been helped by his opponents having elemental tokens, say he had a way to deal damage by killing alot of his opponents creatures in an aristocrat deck, then we could very easily be talking about the time Kenobi didn't see his opponent forget his triggers, only to have his opponent tell him later he should have made him put his triggers on the stack. This is why the rules were updated so that maintaining board state was both players job, because sometimes missing your own trigger isn't always a downside, it can be abused to get advantages.
@@DismalGames I don't like this line of thinking at all. It shouldn't fall on the opposing player to remind you of your triggers. If you miss your triggers, good or bad, you should be warned and if it happens again you should be penalized.
Board states can get really whack and keeping track of your own gameplay is hard enough without trying to remind my opponent of how to play his own fucking deck. utterly ridiculous to expect your opponent to help you play more efficiently. You legit shouldn't be at an event if you're constantly missing triggers. We all make little mistakes, but that's what warnings are for. If I miss a trigger (which I have once or twice) I take the L and gladly accept a judge to come over and fix it. I've never had a judge tell me its my fault an opponent missed a trigger. Here it is straight from the judge rules "Triggered abilities are the exception. If your opponent misses one, it’s legal for you to say nothing and profit from their mistake. It’s not legal to intentionally ignore your own triggered abilities."
This explicitly states that if you miss your triggers it can be considered cheating.
@@DismalGames " this rule was later changed so that both players were responsible for remembering triggers that aren't may triggers." Do you have a source for this? I started playing competitively after this and remember the progression of rules going the opposite direction. Prior to the time of this story players were responsible for maintaining the board state. At the time of this story each player was responsible for remembering the triggers of permanents they control. As I recall, after this story the rules were changed again and players were responsible for triggers caused by permanents they own (the big change of this being that the owner of the Tabernacle became responsible for the triggers of their opponents' creatures.)
In every case that I recall the impetus became more and more focused on each player being responsible for their effects that changed the game state, and less on each player being responsible for their opponent's.
@@calenhoover1124 I tend to agree with this.
The one thing I would disagree with is "the rules as written" portion. The rules as written, to me, are clear that whenever an opponent misses their triggered ability, you can profit from it. "One" in this context does not mean "once". If they wanted you to be liable for correcting the opponent for missing their triggered ability, it would be worded like "when your opponent misses a triggered ability the first time, you may profit from it".
@@EvilGenius007 its possible I had the order wrong. I've been playing since Original Zendikar, sometimes it all gets a bit mixed up >.
I’d never expect my opponent to remind me of my triggers in any kind of competitive play or where there is something to win. But you did the right thing and explained his error after the game, which should make him more aware in the future. The guy who accused you of cheating sounds like a dick…every LGS has one 😂
Sometimes more than one. And sometimes we call all be the William in the room. I say try to be less William, and more friendly.
Yeah I think the only person in the wrong here is the dude that got in Kenobi's face and called him a cheater. The right way to do that would have been to inform the judge and not get confrontational directly.
He allowed the rules of the game to be broken to benefit him so that he won a game he should have lost. I guess I don't understand how this makes him admirable?
Also, he's wrong about it not being cheating per the competitive play rules. I've personally witnessed people get game losses for this in higher level competitive play. Player 1 brags about how they are better than the opponent by pointing out all the mistakes Player 2 made in the game. Some of those mistakes included mandatory triggers. Player 2 calls the judge and Player 1 received a warning / game loss. Knowingly allowing an improper game state is cheating.
If I see this at a LGS or some kind of casual event (like for a playmat) I'm not going to say shit...Who cares. Its a $15 playmat. But if P-Kenobi did this at a competitive REL event like a PTQ or Pro-Tour (whatever its called now) then it proves he is willing to cheat the rules to win.
@@michaedove3562 Wasnt against the rules at the time.
@@michaedove3562 you keep lying in these comments so confidently, some people are bound to believe you, but you're wrong.
I've had people not let me untap because I drew first (that made me stop playing standard permanently), so this incident to me is extremely tame. Shit you even told him after the game to help him!
What the hell? You're not allowed to skip your untap step.
You actively cannot miss your untap step
I've had this exact thing happen, at a prerelease. Think it was the first time playing again in like 8 years too so I think it upset me more than it should haba
Well those people are actually just cheating.
@@BrotherAlpha And I certainly didn't know that 15 years ago, but it wouldn't have mattered because it just made me hate competitive play regardless
I fully agree with this.
In a casual setting, I will happily speak about missed triggers or make sure they know what’s going on.
In a more competitive setting I think it’s more based on the interaction I’m having with an opponent.
If they’re a shitbag, I’m not telling them shit.
But if we’re having a good time, I want us to both have fun and will tell them for sure.
So you admit you allow the rules to be broken to benefit you...
By definition that means you cheat.
@@michaedove3562 You are not obligated to make sure your opponent is playing correctly. If your opponent forgets to draw during their draw step you don't need to remind them.
@@michaedove3562 at no point is it my responsibility to remind my opponent that they missed a trigger. As a more competitive I have missed triggers and not been reminded and in that same game not told my opponent of a missed trigger. It's just how the game is played at a competitive level. The player is expected to be able to play they're deck at a high enough level to not miss said triggers
@@michaedove3562 tell me you know nothing about the rules without saying "I know nothing about the rules".
@@jutton11 I personally witnessed this leading to a warning / game loss, but you have to be dumb enough to admit you noticed the error and did nothing like Kenobi admits he did. Playing dumb wont get you in trouble. "Gee, I didnt notice he didnt draw". But admitting you knew the game state was wrong and doing nothing to correct it is an admission of cheating.
Another thing...At the pro level my opponents have tried to forget to draw and then call the judge about me having drawn an extra card to get me a game loss, so you might want to make sure you arent getting angle shot by keeping the game in the state it should be in.
The funny thing about the interaction is that if you had not done the sporting thing and told your opponent after the match about their triggers, none of the rest of the players around would've noticed most likely. In a way, their reaction to you encourages you to be more deceptive and discourages you from teaching an opponent how to play better by calling you a cheater.
100%
Fair, but since we are bringing good sportsmanship, well good sport would warn opponent about missed triggers. Honestly him bringing it up later just shows that he took advantage of it even tough he was aware of it. Sure, it's not his duty to inform opponent of it, but to be fair it is unsportsmanlike not to.
@@pucifer92 care to explain how it was unsportsmanlike? it is a may ability and it was in a competition. The sportsman thing to do without throwing is to inform after the game or at least try to as again that was in a COMPETITIVE setting and a good sport would only warn about missed triggers in a CASUAL setting with no prizes on the line. The rules for sportsmanship differs between casual and competitive as in casual informing about missed triggers could be seen as a good sport if it is just for fun unless you are trying to teach them to be more attentive to the game state and in competitive it could be seen as a slight on the opponents intellect or straight up throwing if you remind them about a trigger that they missed or almost missed
Like you have to keep in mind the difference between casual and competitive and again this was competitive he was talking about
@@JohnnyYeTaecanUktena Actually it's not a may ability, but that's beside the point anyways.
Well I disagree that just because it's competitive that it negates unsportsmanship. Like would you say that is ok in world cup of football, or NBA, or something? For example football players that roll on floor whenever they're touched just to get judge attention when they are not hurt at all. Would you call that unsportsman like, or do you think it's ok just because it's competitive settings?
@@pucifer92 There is a difference between trying to lie to the ref about having been hurt by another player, and helping your opponent to play better because they are making mistakes.
Spirit bonds / enchantment/ I think it says when you cast a non token creature you may pay one mana to create a 1/1 spirit with flying. Then sac a spirit to give a non spirit indestructible if I remember correctly( edit I was almost completely correct just missed it cost 2 to make indestructible
Also spirit bonds has some stories about it being too good in the future future league, so they buffed seige rhino by increasing its stats, giving it trample to be able to break through the spirit tokens.
They then nerfed spirit bonds but didn't nerf the rhino back.
So yeah, this dumb enchantment is why abzan was 👑 for khans standard.
To my memory, it was only a year or two prior to this incident that it was in fact considered cheating to knowingly let triggers lapse, maybe M13, whichever core set had Exalted. It was stupid, but understandable that someone would think you cheated if they weren't up to date on recent rules changes.
I've been playing long enough that I remember the time when missed mandatory triggers were a failure to maintain game state for both players if there was no intent, and cheating (IE you could be DQ'd for it) if a player intentionally missed the trigger and knew about it (on either side). There was even a pretty high profile case of a competitive player who didn't know the rules worked that way (because you could miss optional triggers) doing a very similar thing (mentioning to his opponent after the match that Dragon Broodmother triggers on opponent's upkeeps as well) and getting DQ'd for it despite both players not knowing that it was cheating, or even worth a warning, to miss a mandatory trigger.
Since you note that you could tell the other player was invested, and likely a long term player, it seems likely that he remembered the rules from that time and had forgotten or missed the change. In other words, it's entirely possible that he was making an earnest mistake based on real (if out of date) rules knowledge which would really frame the incident differently.
The weird thing about those older rules to me is; you aren't allowed to be coached at any other time *except* when a trigger is missed and *only* by your opponent. Like, that's the strangest rules idea I've ever heard of.
I don't understand why that was changed, that is a much better rule than allowing people to just not do the thing the card says.
@@wesleywyndam-pryce5305 no, that's way worse. Why should you be punished for your opponent not knowing their deck? Like, actually explain why you think another person fuckin up should negatively impact you, who had no way of knowing their deck.
*Sips* "Ahhh. Hydration."
Oh that needs to be clipped and memed.
There is a clip button on TH-cam now. DO IT. Tweet it at me. :P
@@PleasantKenobi I don't use the bird app.
th-cam.com/users/clipUgkxuLH2gtWjJppCAHDiHnFoY9IQwUv52qcy
That depends if I came to win or to play. If it is a prized tournament and I am going strong then I would do exactly like you - tell about the missed triggers in the end. If I am not aiming to win (casual mood/ no prizes / just testing a new deck / falling behind in leaderboard) I tell em about the triggers in the game and allow to backtrack a bit.
Exactly. When you are playing casually, especially when trying a new deck, you WANT your opponent to hit every trigger so you can truly get the best gauge of the power level of what you built. If it’s low-competitive stakes, its a nice guy thing to do by reminding but not required, and definitely not expected. High-stakes prize pool: You are fully responsible for getting the most out of your deck, you will not and should not get help.
As an entrenched MtG player, I enjoy pointing out triggers and different interactions to other players. All that I ask is that the other player tries to pay attention. If they miss the third Prowess trigger this turn, I do stop telling them.
For Prowess, the controlling player does not have to acknowledge the trigger until it has an effect on the game state. There is no requirement to announce it every time cast a spell, but when announcing damage or answering questions about your creatures P/T you’ll have to acknowledge all of them at once or miss them all.
Nice to hear about your standard days Vince, reminds me: I remember playing you while you were piloting that esper control deck down in portsmouth on a gameday, think it was for journey into nyx. I was on a blue/red burn deck that was an event deck I'd stuffed a few cards into from my binder. You smashed me in the finals fair and square and we had a good natter afterwards. Good times, cheers mate.
Maybe your miss remembering which round it was? I don't think I ever won another Game Day. Unless it was another style of event?
@@PleasantKenobi yeah, its entirely possible that I'm mis-remembering what the event was, it was a while ago and the shop was a lovely place to play but used to do odd scheduling stuff like regularly holding fnms on wednesday nights, which doesn't help when trying to recall this stuff.
We had a gentleman at my LGS which played a Modern Golgari tokens deck with Hapatra back in the day. He became infamous for announcing he didn’t have tokens but he had dice to keep up with total tokens. He developed a reputation of remembering every trigger but never announcing them, only absent minded Lu twiddling with his dice while he goldfished his hand and would often catch people off guard who didn’t know how many tokens he had. He stole wins from our perennial pro tour contender at our store as well as newbies who were still learning. His response to anyone saying anything was “It’s not my responsibility to remind you of the board state.” He was a real fucker.
Wait, are you not required to represent your board in a way that is understood by both players? So like, he could use THIS die to represent a 1/1 snake but THAT one is a 2/2 zombie one with no way to tell if something is tapped?
@@STVMcarbondragon he claimed he only had a few dice so each die represented a type of token and the number it was on was the number of tokens he had. Saw a young kids attack into a board state he thought he was good to attack into, but the guy had goldfished eighteen 1/1 snakes he never announced, just spun the die. Kid never saw it coming and was crying in the store.
@@jayemdaewarehouse9027 yeah that would absolutely get a judge call from me. That or I'm asking him to explain his entire board every time it changes because that is most definitely not keeping a clear game state...
Really loved this video. I have similar feelings when I play some video games competitively. There is a difference between wanting a fun balanced game that is competitive and trying to win a tournament. However each person needs to decide how much they will or won't remind an opponent.
I just did this at locals last weekend. My opponent missed an optional trigger in yugioh and I told him after the game and he appreciated it.
Not too exciting as far as hot takes go, but I agree. Even without getting cover from the rules, it's ethically wrong to call this cheating. Whatever cards I play, I'M the one who's playing them, not my opponent, so it's on ME to play my own cards and manage my own board state. Assuming I'm playing my own build, the fact that I put THAT card in MY deck only further reinforces the point; I've tacitly agreed to take on the challenge of remembering triggers by making those triggers part of my deck. My opponent has no obligation to remember my own triggers for me - I might be grateful if they did, and it might help me get better at Magic and have a better time, but that's a bonus, not the baseline.
I would like challenge your statement
"Whatever cards I play, I'M the one who's playing them, not my opponent, so it's on ME to play my own cards and manage my own board state."
with a thought experiment.
Assume player one attacks with a 2/1 first strike and player two blocks with a 2/2. Would you say that player two should be allowed to stay silent if both of them put their creatures to their graveyards?
(To my knowledge, this is not the case according to the current rules and triggers are the only action where one can remain silent despite cards not interacting "as they should" to ones own benefit.)
Off the top of my head Spirit Bonds does:
Whenever a non-spirit enters under your control, you may pay (w), and if you do create a flying 1/1 spirit. You may pay (2) and sacrifice a spirit to give a non-spirit indestructible.
Personally I like to keep track of my opponent's minor mishaps (missed triggers and the like) then inform them after the end of the game.
I find that catching opponents missing triggers mid-game leads to them continuing to miss them, if you inform them afterwards, they tend to work on it harder and improve much faster.
I want my opponents to have fun, I want them to have fair games, but most importantly I want them to improve.
If they stop missing triggers, they get to have fair and fun games where they aren't being interrupted or babysat.
If the player is extremely new, I tend to wait till the end of the turn to inform them so they have full context of the error.
It's kinda like your dad saying "hey, the oven is hot. watch out for it.", then you burn your hand but take extra effort afterwards to listen to dad's advice. The understanding obtained through mistakes is very strong in memory. Your dad constantly taking your hand away from the oven doesn't stop you from trying to touch it, but knowing firsthand the consequences definitely will.
My dad would just call me a dumb ass as he believes that someone has to be stupid in order to be able to learn as in don't touch a hot thing it is hot
@@JohnnyYeTaecanUktena
I mean, you gotta be stupid at some point, might as well get something out of it.
Even in an EDH casual game with friends, we will allow opponents to miss triggers. Typically, we will inform our opponents of the missed triggers after their turn has concluded, so that they do not forget them on their next turn.
However, when one of our players pulls out a brand new deck, there is a lot of trigger assistance BEFORE they move to their next turn phase so that they can learn the deck and take their triggers.
Our overarching rule in our group is that we allow "rewinds" before shifting to your next phase, assuming you haven't drawn any new cards, scry'd, etc., to ensure that their play hasn't been affected by acquired knowledge of what cards are coming.
Spirit bonds:
1W
Enchantment - Aura
Enchant creature you control.
Whenever enchanted creature dies, create a token that’s a copy of enchanted creature, except it’s a 1/1, and is a spirit in addition to its other types.
Usually when I notice a missed trigger on spelltable I ask the player "did you resolve X trigger/ability?". If it's not a "may" effect then I'll always remind them if I noticed it because that ability "had to happen"
Water......Aaahhh......Hydration. You always make me laugh Vince. Keep up the great work 👍 👏
I remember the only time I got accused of cheating, and it is still quite funny to me to this day. I was playing Scarab God control in AKH standard and had my monored opponent solidly in garbage time. I was at the point where I was wanting to close the game out quickly so we could get to game 3, so I noted the upkeep trigger and that I was responding to it by making 2 more zombies and they would take 3 and I would scry 3. My opponent was adamant that I only did 1 damage because I only had 1 zombie on the field when the trigger happened. I called over a judge who confirmed I was correct on how it worked. My opponent would not believe the judge either and demanded proof. The judge call had taken nearly 5 minutes at this point and the judge just told him to carry on with the game, because his call was final. Opponent was muttering about it under his breath the whole of game 3 and snap conceded when I performed the same trick.
Spirit bonds: gain 4 life, target creature gains vigilance until end of turn.
I've recently started rebuilding standard decks from long ago just to have on my shelf. There were some I really enjoyed playing. Owling Mine, Sunny Side Up, UR Magnivore, Astral Slide, Psychatog, Mongrel Madness.
I like that M15 included cards designed by people outside WOTC, it’s fun to see certain concepts made by those unfamiliar with the game. My first commander Yisan was one, as well as the titular Aggressive Mining by Notch, Genesis Hydra by a Plants vs Zombies guy. Chasm Skulker was designed by a Borderlands writer, Mike Neumann, when his team of Gearbox coworkers beat a team of Valve designers at Duels of the Planeswalkers and tabletop magic.
I like the flavor of a lot of those cards, including Spirit Bonds
I'd love to see an updated modern Abzan reanimator deck get shredded by 4c control
I very recently was at a Modern tournament, made a HUGE mistake (not a missed trigger, but close enough), and my opponent DEF didn't give me any kind of gimmie, but he absolutely did not need to. At a casual thing like FNM, I'd be more likely to give an opponent leeway on something getting missed, but at a tournament? I'd capitalize on an opponent making a mistake, be it a misplay or a missed trigger, and think my opponent did a perfectly acceptable thing by doing the same. You nailed it, Vince, I think it's all about how you conduct yourself, the setting, and the individual context.
I think allowing opponents to miss triggers in a competitive setting is perfectly legitimate and should happen. Part of game skill is keeping up with all your effects. I correct opponents during fnm because i want to help them be better players, but in a competitive setting with prizes on the line it is up to them to keep track of their effects.
Spirit Bonds (1W)
When a nontoken creature enters the battlefield you can pay (W). If you do, create a 1/1 white Spirit token with Flying.
(1), Sacrifice a Spirit: target creature gets Indestructible until end of turn.
I might have missed some workings on it but I use it as an insurance piece in my Teysa, Orzhov Scion deck so this should be the gist of it.
I think that for me it depends on my opponent. If my opponent is a tournament grinder and I know it, I might not remind them. But if they're a newer player I probably will. In fact, I will sometimes offer up mild advice or reminders of game rules during a game if a player is really new, or otherwise make sure they're playing on a closer level. I don't want my opponent to feel cheated by an interaction they didn't even know could happen. Like back in the day when damage went onto the stack, I think that caught a bunch of new players by surprise and they probably felt cheated by the rules.
It also kinda depends on my opponent's mood or how much I know they'd be willing to return the favor.
Great video PK.
Really enjoy your insights into our beloved game
Spirit Bonds is sweet! Doesn't it depict Precinct Captain protecting his protegé? I love that shit.
I think in yugioh when a mandatory effect is forgotten, it usually goes like this, a judge gets called once a player notices and the judge does their best to rewind and fix the game state to how it should be with whatever player forgot usually getting a warning, if for whatever reason the game state cannot be fixed or its been too long since the effect was forgotten it'll either result in a game loss for a player or the judge will declare the current board state as an "accepted game state" and both players move on probably with a warning. If there is reason to believe a player has intentionally "forgotten" a mandatory effect and has gained some kind of advantage from it, it'll probably result in anything from a game loss to a ban.
I definitely agree that game day is the lowest level where I just wouldn't remind someone of their missed triggers.
At an FNM I would kind of play it based on who I'm playing against, the people that I regularly compete with and who I know are trying to play more competitively I'll let miss triggers, people who are more casual players who are just there to have fun with the game I'll usually remind at least once or twice, and maybe on a third time remind them after a few actions to let it get missed almost as a lesson in "you do need to pay attention"
When I heard "Spirit Bonds" I thought "Does this just make tokens?" so I was like a third correct.
I completely agree that context matters. I am not a competitive Magic player, and whenever my friends and I sit down to play some games of Commander, I'm usually the one to point out triggers and such. And like PleasantKenobi, I'll try to talk about the game afterwards to point out something the opponent missed that could've won them the game
No matter the setting I am in I will always tell my opponent of any non-may trigger they miss. Its not even out of sportsmanship, but more so that most triggers aren't easy to clearly define as good or bad for a player without knowledge of every card.
I was accused of cheating one time. Dude thought I was funky shuffling and I respect that concern. We reshuffled and I quickly proved I'm so trash at Magic I could't cheat if I wanted to. Nice guy. Stomped the hell outta me.
That was actually my favorite deck of that Standard as well! ...In those days it was 'Junk Reanimator' though xD
I never correct my opponent’s play unless we are in a purely casual game setting. However, I enjoy discussing what either player could have done that might have change the outcome. As PK said, it’s a good learning/teaching moment. It’s definitely NOT cheating.
Plus, how is your opponent supposed to learn if you’re keeping track of their triggers? The punish, which I’ve been the victim of plenty of times, is the best teacher. Chalice checking was easily one of the most annoying things to wrap my head around when that card got printed.
I kinda had a situation like this recently at a draft. It was Streets of New Capenna and for prizes. My opponent had an illuminator virtuoso and had enchanted it with security bypass, giving it a counter on the connive. The following turn they cast majestic metamorphosis, and again gave it a counter from connive and swung. The creature connected, however, and I want to emphasize this, we both missed the connive trigger on the dealing of combat damage. Then on my turn, with 3 creatures on my board and the virtuoso being a 3/3 I cast cabaretti charm to deal 3 damage to it. With my spell on the stack my opponent realized that they had missed their trigger and attempted to reason that they should be able to resolve it because it wasn’t a may ability. I told them that no way was that allowed and they were visibly dejected for the rest of the match. Not 100% sure, but am almost positive that denying them their trigger was well within the rules. However, it is an important question, was not allowing the trigger to resolve the right thing to do? I personally think it was extremely reasonable, but would love to hear any thoughts.
I mixed up the etb of spirit bonds with a dies trigger, and didn't think about any costs, but I remembered the overall design
Just as an FYI, Dark Confidant triggers are not usually considered to be detrimental due to the outcome providing an additional card in your hand that otherwise would not be there. Pact triggers are more direct examples of Detrimental triggers.
An old friend of mine missed out on Top 8 of a huge tournament (Eternal Weekend Paris) because he was such a good guy and reminded an oppenent of a game action he forgot to take. My friend was one of the most chills dudes ive ever met.
I had a friend years ago that did something that was a bit sleezy. Grand finals game 2 my friend had an abysmal matchup. I don't remember what the matchup was, but Shards of Alara was probably in standard at the time. He looks at his opening hand and tell his opponent "count your sideboard" on a whim. Back then your sideboard had to be 15 cards, no more, no less. His opponent had 14 cards and 61 in the deck and forgot to sideboard out correctly. They call a judge who rules in favor of my friend, but then in front of the judge the other player offers my friend the packs if he takes the win. The judge immediately gave a match loss to the opponent at that point.
Fun fact just became an L2 the other day, but Dark Confidants trigger isn't considered a detrimental trigger because drawing cards is generally good in a vacuum!
I actually play spirit bonds! Whenever a nontoken creature etbs under your control, you may pay a w, if you do, make a 1/1 white spirit token with flying, and then there's an activated ability to sac a spirit to give target (?) Creature you control indestructible. That being said I did NOT recognize the art from that card on the playmat
A friend of mine lost a qualifier for failing to notice their opponent made an illegal move. They copied their primeval titan with phantasmal image, and the original got removed with go for the throat. The next turn, they played sword of feast and famine, then swung for game.
Did you see the illegal move?
Equipping a creature involves a target, so Phantasmal image would've needed sacrificed due to its ability. But neither player caught it at the time, and qualifiers can't have someone butting in, so it was only caught after the results.
They missed the pro tour by one spot. If they hadn't lost that game, they would've gotten in.
Reminds me of when someone said I should've told my opponent of my ability to copy a Dreadnought with Lazav the Multifarious while attacking; it's a little different because it was open information and I don't have an obligation to reveal my strategy to my opponent
I LOVE Sphinx's Revelation + Elixir of Immortality. It's one of my all time favorite decks. I still have a few of my favorite Standard decks from years gone by built in paper.
In the worst case, where this is called out in game a game day comp level would only even give a warning. Even at a ptq a missed bob trigger is a game loss, and I've never seen a judge assign a retroactive game loss after the match is complete for reported unintentional missed triggers.
Hi Vince,
Without question you did the right thing and showed good sportsmanship by going to him and helping him to learn from the experience. I think the discussion here is more around the behaviour of the accuser. Being accused of cheating is no small thing and can have a massive impact on the accused. He should have backed down when proved wrong and apologised.
Where did you get the cage wall scroll?
On that last topic of unsporting conduct, I was at an event once playing standard. I was playing a Green pile, and he was playing some UW artifacts and enchantments thing. I had a Shifting Ceratops on board, and he swung in with an Arcanists Owl. So, I paid a G, gave the Ceratops Reach and blocked. He got *so fucking angry with me*. I thought he was going to hit me. Apparently he "didn't know" the card did that, but like, read the card bro. It explains the card. I assumed he knew what he was doing, he didn't ask to read the card when I played it, or at any point afterwards. He was pissy all night, even though he ended up winning the match overall.
If I am remembering it correctly it is an enchantment that says when a creature you control dies you may pay 1 and if you do make a 1/1 white spirit creature token with flying.
I personally don’t let my opponents miss triggers. Even in competitive play. Only because I’ve told myself that if I’m going to win or lose I want it to be from my own level of play and not someone else’s. Have I lost games from this? Yes. But at the end of the day you’re right Vince. It’s just a hobby and we should all enjoy it.
Spirit bonds sounds like one of two things:
1) this set's version of oblivion ring for limited
or
2) soulbond both creatures get afterlife 1
On spirit bonds, I vaguely remembered: I remembered it made spirits in some way, and sacrificed spirits to give stuff indestructible.
There are a couple times where I go to a friends house to play quite literally, the most casual games of magic. Sometimes it's a little play group they've amassed of 6 or so. Sometimes they have weird house rules like no silvers or infect. Ok whatever, I can still play. But sometimes, they're *really* anal about this missed triggers thing. For example, you have a card draw trigger that happened at the end of your turn. Like Beast Whisperer or Soul of the Harvest. You accidentally say pass turn too soon, and say "Oh wait, I was supposed to draw a card." They'll get all up in your face, dramatically lift up the card and shout "It says *MAY*" and you're just like wtf?
If it was optional, they won't let you do it. If it's not then they say it should have happened. What's double weird about this, is if you have both Beast Whisperer and Soul of the Harvest, they'll only let you draw 1. Some people are just backwards anal about the dumbest things.
I'm still salty about this one other situation. My partner and I go to a friends house. We start playing a game of commander. The friend gets up to check on the food while I take my turn. I have two deathtouch creatures, each of my opponent's have like 1 medium creature. I announce I'll attack with my 1/1, I'm not going to block with it. I'm out of cards and down to 7 life. I don't have many choices anyway. I do a quick look over, and see, hey I should attack with my lifelink+deathtouch creature. I realized I'm also clearly not going to be able to block with it. The friend hasn't even come back yet, technically my turn isn't totally over. Both him and my partner start getting really upset that I would go back on something like that. Like seriously, absolutely zero actions have been taken in-between these two ideas. He already said he wasn't blocking with his medium flier anyway. The guy hasn't even had the time to come back and change his's life total. And I get so many "you can't do that."
And to top that off, they're both *very* inexperienced. I taught my partner to play only 1 year ago. This guy plays games maybe once every other month. I've done this regularly for 6 years.
I'm in the same boat as you. I dont inform my opponents about their triggers at competitive events including more competitive modern FNMs. For new players or playing casually I will frequently keep track of the entire stack even to my detriment because I was my friends and new players to enjoy the game. That's far more important than winning. People get so crazy about like $20 in prize money. Always surprised me.
I think it’s part of the learning curve sometimes to not miss your triggers. If someone’s just starting out, I’ll happily remind them of their triggers and whatever so they learn quicker. But if someone’s confident enough in their abilities and deck to enter at any tournament level, they should be able to remember their triggers. It isn’t an angle shot to remain fully within the rules of the game that everyone implicitly agrees to by sitting down for a game of Magic
I always remember seeing my friends play legacy in this kind of moments.
Friend A trying to resolve a spell with Chalice of the Void in play just for his opponent to CHECK THE TRIGGER that would counter that spell.
If he misstrigger it, the spell would resolve.
That's why MIND YOUR TRIGGERS is a common yell in my playgroup (talked in a funny way, but still true).
Spirit bonds is great, “whenever you cast a creature you can pay a white and get a 1/1 spirit and then you can sac a spirit for 1 and a white to give a creature indestructible”
in my group if you miss a trigger we'll let you retroactively fix it if its like one turn later depending on what it is but generally we just go "oops that sucks, it said 'may' though so you just didnt"
I do agree with Vince in that winning or losing should be solely based on player skills. However, I also think that properly maintaining game state _is_ a skill, given how the rules are written. It's true that computer clients take care of this, but you trade that with having less time to play your turn, AI shufflers, and that kinda things.
As more of a tangent on what was put near the end of the video; the rules are beautifully written indeed, but they also allow for exploitation. The classic example of this is noticing an opponent missed a crucial trigger (such as a pact's payment) and being able to "remind them" when said opponent doesn't have mana left to pay. Since it's a detrimental trigger it is put on the stack immediately and opponent loses. In a way, the rules encourage this type of behavior which, in my opinion, is unsportsmanlike as hell.
Rule changed in Feb 2013. That version of the card was at earliest June 2013. If it was a year prior the older player would be right. I admit due to life getting in the way I am still in the mindset of older rules. One I hated the most is lifelink can save you from getting 0 or less life during combat. Lost a round due to that change.
I believe you should always inform the opponent if you are aware. Technically I can explain it with math called the infinite prisoner’s dilemma. In short if you are going to interact with the other party in the future it is in your best interest to tell them and same for them to tell you if you miss a non-may trigger.
BTW under the rule change a judge can determine if they trigger can go back if the owner realizes it.
I run Spirit Bonds in my Brago Deck.
*Thanks for the Content* !
love good ol' comrade Kenobi @ 0:21
i know spirit bonds art really well because it depicts one of my favorite cards characters, precinct captain and the token that he makes. tells a nice little story all together, even if the mechanics aren't great
I lost in the finals for that same playmat, Not being allowed by the op nor the store owner to kill the courser of kruphix after he had drawn for turn (but before mainstep) as it was a land on top, and I didnt want him gaining that life! :D
It’s part of the game. I don’t like winning games off of my opponents missing triggers so I always remind them but not everybody cares about playing magic the way it was intended.
One time I remember an opponent letting me miss a trigger that would’ve pretty much ended the game at a prerelease. I still won the game because the following turn, I didn’t miss it.
I didn’t say anything but I always remembered that he knew and let it happen anyway. It just changed my opinion of him, personally. I could never enjoy winning that way.
A lot of people just want to win, and that’s okay too.
quite often if my friend misses negative triggers or doesn't play a card of effect correctly, i'll just let it happen, or i'll avoid playing a bombcard or attacking planeswalkers, because i'd rather we both have fun and have a close game, than to rules-lawyer a casual match and make people not want to play with my anymore. but in a comp setting, each player is responcible for their own triggers, and can point out an opponent's trigger if its beneficial to yourself.
As far as I remember, Spirit Bonds lets you pay a white whenever a nontoken creature dies and get a Spirit. I considered it for a Spirits deck when I was just playing "Cards I own" with friends and enchantment removal was some mythical thing we'd never heard of, but even then it wasn't good.
I remember that gameday, I was in the semi-final, UW control mirror. The game took almost 3 hours! I lost... then the guy who defeated me lost in the final in something like 10 min, against Grull Aggro (or something like that).
Also, I always tell my opponent that they missed their triggers, but I wait for their turn to be over, so they still pay the price for their mistake and learn. The only time I will wait after the game is during a gameday or a pre-release (if there is a "good" price to be won).
I only play Commander with friends, but I will ALWAYS remind people of triggers...if I remember that is! What a wonderfully complex game we all love.
You are totally right. If i play casual just for fun i tell people if they miss something or even if they could still do something like "you did not use your planeswalker" "or can you prevent the instant with somehting" but the moment it is a tournament or you play for a prize those things are told after the game.
In the end i wish that everyone gets better at the game (hope people tell me too when i f up) so we can have more fun and play better matches.
I got cheated out of a game day mat, long game happening and I had instant removal in hand. If the opponent attack all out I would have used it and won the next turn. His kid walked behind me (not knowing it was his kid) texted his dad what was in my hand. Needles to say I lost the match from it. Found out after because he was telling his kid he was going to reward him for telling him what was in my hand. Idiot said it in front of the store owner. Found out he was caught and ran out the door and drove away. Still never got my mat but that player did get banned from all the stores within a 100 miles
nah, the moment there was a prize on the line it's on the player to remember their triggers IMHO.
The last standard format I enjoyed was the Origins/Khans standard (can't remember exactly which sets or blocks were with it at the time) with Izzet Prowess. Got to Ultimate a flipped Jace and won through that as opposed to crashing in. Since then though, Standard has held less and less appeal
At least you didn't sneak a Resto in off a CoCo. THAT would be unforgivable.
Been there with missed triggers I've reminded opponents and then got the short end of the stick when I missed them too even...
There is a point where you just shouldn't be expected to pilot people's deck for them, and doing so could even be considered unsportsmanlike. I play mostly miniature wargames and while I'll happily remind people about stuff their army does I really, really, really dislike it when someone does it to me. I didn't know why at first, but after thinking about it for a while I've realized that every time my opponent "helpfully" reminds me how my army works it stops whatever thought process is happening in my head, to the point where sometimes I change what I was intending to do, sometimes with negative consequences to my game. This is not something my opponent is doing on purpose, it is just an example of why reminding people of optional things is not necessarily universally good.
I forget the exact wording but I'm pretty sure Spirit Bonds is an enchantment for 1 and a white that generates 1/1 spirits whenever a creature enters or dies (can't remember which it is exactly). And then I think it's for a White and sac a spirit and all creatures gain indestructible (or other spirts?). Boy I wish I could have used gatherer for this (though I like this card, it does blow hard XD). Magic 2015 had ONE card I love.... and it goes into most of my green decks. Genesis Hydra, my standard/modern/pioneer deck cheats Kiora, the Crashing Wave out on turn 3 sometimes with this card :P
No idea if commenting an old video isn't pointless but anyway.
It reminds me of a discussion on a car back from GP Paris 2009.
There was a debate about scummy plays and part of us were on the "whatever it takes to win within the rules" and others of the "sportive conduct" team.
Young me was dumbfounded that so many of us were like : "If you're opponent don't knows the rules and forget things, you're just better at magic than them".
They were listing the "grey zones" of the sportive conducts and i dropped that earlier those day, during a library search, i put down my deck to check my hand and my opponent took it and shuffled it as if i found nothing, it was round 8 and late on Sunday. To this, most of my group laughed and found it ok to do so.
I guess the philosophy of the game and the way ppl envision it as "competitive" can be very scummy.
I play commander, so I often remind my opponents of their triggers. There's a lot of shit going on in commander, it's just the nice thing to do. But if I were competing? Hell no, you can miss those triggers and I will take that mistake to the bank.
Aura, gives life link to enchanted creature, when enchanted creature dies attach spirit bonds to another target creature you control
It's one thing to miss a trigger that must happen; we are all human and mistakes are part of the experience unfortunately. That's kind of what judges are for at competitive events. You and/or your opponent notice the missed trigger, call a judge, and they straighten it out, for better or worse.
But when your opponent misses an optional trigger, that should always (and should have always) been on them. I've got enough going on with my own board, cards in hand, and strategy that I'm trying to carry out, that I shouldn't be forced to also learn my opponent's deck too. Thankfully they have changed this rule, but it should have always been like this. I'm sure as hell not going to play my opponent's deck and help them beat me. If I wanted that experience, then I'd just stay at home and run decks against one another.
Funnily enough, I taught my daughter how to play when she was about 8 or 9. She is now 22. She told me once, when I tried to get her to give Arena a try (before I too ultimately gave up on it), and she told me that she didn't enjoy it. She couldn't stand that the game (necessarily so) "held your hand" with regards to all of the triggers. She isn't wrong. A large part of these games, when played at a competitive level, is all about who knows the rules better. That should matter.
That "the queen in a cartridge" part in the opening is totally a screen showing the queen. She ain't in there.
we know
@PleasantKenobi just makin sure we're on the same page.
The only game day that I ever won was the one with the Spirit Bonds playmat, was so disappointed and I gave it away as a prize for a friendly backdraft since I just couldn't keep looking at it.
I've struggled, ever since hearing the term live from SCG commentators and quickly followed up with, "You gotta do it," how a clearly intentional "Chalice check" is actually legal. I understand there's no way to PROVE awareness but I'd still feel dirty and, more consequently... COULD others legally admit it afterward?
I had this kind angleshooting against me from the other side at a pptq in kaladesh - amonkhet time and the opponent was always trying to skip his endstep by announcing nothing but discard during his turn to trick me into not making thopters with energy (whirler virtuoso) during his endstep. He got me dirty in the game because he also played champion of wits which essentially draws+discards and instantly called a judge for backup. Then when it was very close I played a rogue refiner directly into the energy manadork and gave me 4 energy total he again called the judge that I missed the trigger on the refiner which I obviously didn’t, cause I drew off of it. The 2 energy caused me to be short 1 thopter activation and I was short a few swings in the end.
Never forget :D
This is a fun mini game. I believe it's an enchantment that let's you sac spirits to protect other creatures
100% play some old favorite standard decks in modern
I was once accused of cheating at a grand prix event. it was in one of the side events, win a box, so there was something on the line.
nearing the end of a game, my opp calls a judge over and accuses me of attacking with a creature that would have had summoning sickness. Being my first real competitive event I was very nervous, but after about 5-10 minutes of trying to figure out what happened, I eventually was able to demonstrate that I hadn't made a mistake because of how i was tracking the life totals.
I think at competitive level, having to remember your own triggers is part of the high level competition, and isn't a bad faith move if you don't remind your opponent of their mistakes.
I sometimes take Five Color Control straight from 2009 to Modern FNM. Its a blast.
Maintaining the board state is the basis for issuing corrections from the standpoint of a judge. They probably heard that somewhere and used it to assume that both players need to collaborate to maintain the sanctity of a board state no matter what. Heh.
Miniatures games have so many moving parts in their simplest form that you almost have to take a sporting approach to them. These were barely meant to be played by people, let alone Blood Bowl where the dice will literally kill your players by a couple bad rolls.
I think piloting error is totally a valid part of competition. In every other form of competition, situational awareness is a core skill. Maybe it feels better to win on tactics than SA, but it along with things like nerves are absolutely an aspect of competition. Restricting competition to just the rules on the cards is a very narrow definition of competition, and for those people that like to play like that, we have a word for it. "Casual"
*looks at two full playsets of spirit bonds in white bulk rares box* okay back to the video, you're welcome for the video engagement.
I appreciated it when opponents would catch my missed triggers cause I was new when I played FNM. If my friends are playing I’ll tell them the first time and when it’s important or remind them shortly after.